Latest / Mortgage Marketing Radio / Magic Words That Grow Your Influence and Increase Sales with Phil M. Jones

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Magic Words That Grow Your Influence and Increase Sales with Phil M. Jones · Mortgage Marketing Radio

• 0:00
  In today's highly competitive mortgage industry, building profitable relationships with
• 0:04
  the real estate agents is essential for success.
• 0:06
  However, finding effective ways to secure agent relationships can be a challenge.
• 0:11
  With so many mortgage loan originators vying for the attention of real estate agents,
• 0:15
  it can be difficult to stand out and establish meaningful connections.
• 0:20
  Our new case study featuring loan officer Chris Cogill is a must-read.
• 0:25
  Chris has closed a remarkable 36 million in funded loans from agent referrals.
• 0:31
  And in this case study, he shares his proven strategies for building strong relationships
• 0:34
  with real estate agents and leveraging those relationships to drive more business.
• 0:39
  To get your hands on this resource, head over to LOKestudy.com and download your free copy
• 0:45
  of the case study today.
• 0:47
  You'll find actionable insights and practical tips that Chris used to close 36 million
• 0:52
  in funded loans from agent referrals and how you can, too.
• 0:56
  Don't miss out.
• 0:57
  Go check it out right now, visit LOKestudy.com and download your free copy today.
• 1:03
  Hey, listeners, what's up, it's Jeff Zimfer.
• 1:11
  Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the Mortgage Marketing Radio podcast.
• 1:16
  I just want to say, I appreciate you.
• 1:18
  I appreciate you.
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  You're listening to this.
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  I wish I could be there in your car, in the gym, maybe spotting you on that extra
• 1:26
  little bit of weight that you're going to push, maybe run on the treadmill together,
• 1:29
  whatever you're doing while you listen to the, walk the dogs.
• 1:31
  I don't know.
• 1:32
  What are you doing while you listen to the podcast?
• 1:34
  I would love to know, jump into our Facebook group and let me know where you listen
• 1:39
  to the podcast, right?
• 1:40
  Is it in the gym?
• 1:41
  Is it while you're multitasking or doing other things?
• 1:43
  Is it in the car?
• 1:44
  Who, you're probably not in your car that much anymore, I guess, with COVID.
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  I don't know if it depends where you are in the country.
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  But I just love the, you know, I want to interact with you guys more at a deeper level.
• 1:53
  And so you may or may not know, we've got a Facebook group, right?
• 1:56
  Just for podcasts, radio listeners, you can go to Facebook and just type in Mortgage
• 2:00
  Marketing Radio and put in a request to join the group.
• 2:03
  I mean, make it clear we do have some questions that you, we request you ask before you are
• 2:10
  entered and permitted into the group.
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  Part of the reason we have these questions is to kind of separate the wheat from the
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  chaff, right?
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  Keep the spammers out, keep like the third party vendors who just want to pitch you out.
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  It is exclusively right to the best we can control it, mortgage professionals who have an
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  abundance mindset and are there to collectively learn from each other and we hope to see
• 2:31
  you there.
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  So go check that out.
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  One last thing too is as you're heading into Q4 here and you're thinking about, you know,
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  your plan for the end of this year, whether it's to finish strong or the new year, look,
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  I don't know where you're at in terms of your focus on purchase versus re-five, but
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  let's just face it, right?
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  A lot of people are talking about how the mortgage, the refinances are going to fade away.
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  As a matter of fact, the latest quote I saw was, I can't remember if it was Stratmore or
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  if it was a mortgage banking association that said that the re-fives are going to drop,
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  their prediction is 56% in 2021 and purchases are going to rise, 3%.
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  So my question is, are you in front of that wave and the wave of purchases, right?
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  The millennials, the large demographics, that's favorable for us in the mortgage and real
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  estate industry in the coming years because of millennials, because of favorable interest
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  rates, you know.
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  So without going too deep on that, my real question for you is, are you prepared to take
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  advantage of that wave?
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  Are you in front of the wave?
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  Are you actively seeking oil wells that will continue to serve you for the long term?
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  Oil wells, by the way, one example of an oil well is a real estate agent, right?
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  Five million transactions happen every year.
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  Real estate agents still control about 84% of those, so they're still at the top of the
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  funnel.
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  Yes, we want to go consumer direct, there's different strategies for that.
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  But if you are looking for the, if you will, the least costly, highest conversion, least
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  effort, return, right, on a lead strategy, it is through the referral of a trusted real
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  estate advisor partner.
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  What I help you do is I help you grow your referral partner relationships without ever
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  calling a real estate agent, without ever begging, without ever chasing, right, without
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  ever selling your soul.
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  How do we do it?
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  We lead with an educational platform that acts as a magnet, attracts the right agents and
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  follow a proven process for you to get conversations and referrals.
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  If you want to learn more about that, you can go to mortgagemarketing.pro, check out
• 4:31
  the short video we put up, that'll give you more details if that's for you.
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  All right, now let's transition into my special guest for this episode, who I was thrilled
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  to finally be able to bring you.
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  It was quite a long time in the making.
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  And look, as we continue to go through this shift in the market, right, from my book Disruptor
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  Die, How to Survive and Thrive the Digital Real Estate Shift, listen, I think the most
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  important skill we're going to need if we're going to win with Disruptors in the market
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  and, you know, whatever Zillow doing is, I don't know, and all these, you know, we're competing
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  against a lot of big, well-known name brands.
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  How do we not only maintain our momentum, but how do we just simply become more effective,
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  if you will, without adding additional overhead to our role and responsibility, I think the
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  most important skill we need today, as a professional, is the skill of communication, the craft
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  of communication.
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  And a lot of communication is based around curiosity and questions.
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  And knowing what are the questions to ask, the right words, when to ask them.
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  And so I wanted to bring Phil on because I was introduced to Phil, originally by a podcast
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  I did with Chris Smith, who's one of the co-founders of Curator, Chris and his partner, Jimmy,
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  my special guest wrote a book called Exactly What To Say for Real Estate Agents.
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  And I want to suggest that you get this book for yourself, but also get a few copies for
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  your core realtor partners, right, your top five, top 10 realtor partners, or anybody
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  you're prospecting.
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  If you're actually going after agents, you want to send this book to them.
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  Exactly what to say for real estate agents by Phil Jones.
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  It's specific for real estate, and then it's chock full of examples, of phrases, of words,
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  of how to overcome objections, how to have your first consultation, how to really be
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  an effective, clear communicator, how to build quick trust with people, and so forth.
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  I mean, it's one of the best books I've seen when it comes to dare I say the word scripting,
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  right?
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  And you're already scripting.
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  The question is, how good are you?
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  Are you unconsciously using scripts?
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  Most of us do, we've fallen into the rut of saying the same things over and over again.
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  So I encourage you to check the speaker notes for this episode, show notes, and there'll
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  be links to Phil's books.
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  He's actually got, I don't know, four or five books out there.
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  He actually also is known as the most listened to audio business book on Audible for his
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  audio book called How to Persuade and Get Paid.
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  And that is actually a Broadway play, a one-man show, one time that he did on Broadway,
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  that Audible got behind in sponsored and they had a bunch of other sponsors.
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  That's not on YouTube, it's only available on Audible.
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  So if you're an Audible person, check it out, Phil Jones, if you're not, now's the time
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  to maybe check it out.
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  And like I said, I'm going to put links to all that in the show notes to Phil's Instagram
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  page as well.
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  He shares amazing content on Instagram.
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  His handle is, let's see here.
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  And as it, Phil M. Jones UK is his Instagram handle and of course his website is PhilMJones.com.
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  Look for links in the show notes, but I just love the conversation that Phil and I have
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  together about communication, about better questions and words, words, how words, the words
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  we choose and use make a difference.
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  Hope you enjoyed this episode without further ado.
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  Let's get into this week's show.
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  Phil Jones, welcome to the show.
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  So good to be here Jeff, thanks for having me.
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  So glad to have you, especially it's been a long time and I know you're a busy guy in
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  the calendar.
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  The world has changed quite a lot, I think since we originally communicated, yeah, lots
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  of changes going on.
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  So I wanted you to bring you to the conversation as you and I were talking just a moment
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  ago, you and I originally were connected because of the book you co-wrote with the gentleman
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  from Curator, which is exactly what to say for real estate agents, but you've, that's
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  I think your fourth book, right?
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  You have exactly what to say, exactly where to start, how to persuade and get paid, exactly
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  how to sell.
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  I mean, yeah, I got eight or nine titles out in the world somewhere, but three main ones,
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  I want to say how to sell and where to start and then we did the special edition of
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  exactly what to say with the guys at Curator and how to persuade and get paid is an audible
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  original.
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  So that's a audio only program recorded live off Broadway in New York.
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  Really?
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  You did that on Broadway?
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  Yep.
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  So you have kind of like a one man show, one man show, yeah, real.
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  That's kind of like bowiesin.
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  Yeah.
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  Something like that.
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  Wow.
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  That's awesome.
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  Congrats, man.
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  You know what?
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  That deserves right here.
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  Round of applause.
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  That takes a lot of courage.
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  In just self moments, right, is is subsidiary of Amazon decides to back me to do a one man
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  show with a live audience that is recorded in one take that's going to end up being
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  a product for eternity on audible and it's probably my proudest piece of work today.
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  So it may sound like a silly question, but there was a live audience when you did that,
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  right?
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  Yeah.
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  How do you get a group of people to attend a on Broadway, right?
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  The topic of how to persuade and get paid.
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  How do you get people there?
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  And same way that you get people to attend an online course or to come to a seminar with
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  a ticketed fee and and we're the slight added easier of this is happening once and one
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  time only.
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  Would you like to be in the audience?
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  There are partners and sponsors from audible's point of view that meant they wanted to send
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  people.
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  Okay.
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  I got an email list.
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  Friends have got email lists.
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  Yeah, it was it was fun.
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  It was an audience of friends and strangers from all walks of life and all walks of profession
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  which was what my goal was, right, is I wanted to have a subsection of everybody I was
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  producing the program for in the audience.
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  So when I called on examples or you know, led for pushback of objections and key frustration
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  points that people thought were unique to their industry to help prove that they're
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  not unique to just the mortgage industry or the real estate industry or the healthcare
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  industry or the you know, the plumbing industry when they're like, oh, you experienced
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  that too.
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  It was quite nice to be able to see those moments.
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  That's amazing.
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  Well, I'll make sure we put a link to all your resources in the show notes.
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  If I recall though, is that that is one of the most downloaded audio books on that?
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  What to say is in fact, listen to non-fortunately a book on real and which I'm kind of proud
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  of is it's a book that is is listened.
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  They have like a 5.2 or something with the last stats.
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  I've got back 5.2 times listened through, which so it might not be the most sold or the
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  most downloaded, but the most listened to program, which is like that's a cool step, given
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  that's what you're producing it for, right?
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  Yeah, and I think there's a good reason for that is because what you talk about really
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  needs to be I think to really take it on and own it and implement it in your daily
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  life.
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  You need to know it really well.
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  It needs to be like on recall without having to like think about it, you know?
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  And it's a book on spoken word, which I think is in its best medium form delivered in
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  spoken word, right?
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  Is that you can get the cadence and you can get the context with a lot more authority
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  when you're listening to it as opposed to reading it.
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  Yeah.
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  Okay, so by the way, for you listeners here, if you're a mortgage originator, this is
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  a perfect podcast to share with your real estate agents, because as we said just a moment
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  ago, the book, he has one of his books, of course, exactly what to say for real estate
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  agents, what to say to close the deal, to win more listings, etc.
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  You got to share this with your agents.
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  All right.
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  Let me get into it.
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  So I love when I open up the book and like one of the first pages, this really hit home
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  for me.
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  This is one of the things you say on the first page, which is the worst time to think
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  about the thing you're going to say is the moment you are saying it.
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  Yep.
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  When I read that, I was just like brilliant, brilliant, you know what I mean?
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  So obvious.
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  And let me set this out properly.
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  I'm a guy who believes in scripting.
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  And as you probably well know, scripting has mixed emotions associated with it.
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  Through the years, I'm sure you've had people respond negatively to scripting or I don't
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  script.
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  Right.
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  But why, let me ask you that first, why do you think the idea of scripting that word comes
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  with so much like baggage and people kind of want to put up barriers to that?
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  Why do I think people want to put up barriers to is first reason is almost nobody wants
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  to do the work to do it right.
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  So they think the scripting is cheating or shortcutting or not being authentic.
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  Yeah, I hear that all the time and sounding canned and it's not every circumstance is
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  at the same and all of this sequence of reasons, but the little boils down to the fact they're
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  too lazy.
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  And if you think about every great movie that you've ever experienced, which was a moment
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  of the matter, there was a lot of work that was put into crafting that script.
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  If a movie is going to reach its investment level or people want to say, well, how's
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  the script?
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  How's the script?
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  Is it like an important conversation for any piece of media that's being introduced?
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  What's interesting about both financial services and real estate, which I've done a ton
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  of work in, is I'll often start a workshop or a seminar that is based on, so what are
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  the frustrations about friction points, the customers or prospects throw back at you
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  and boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, they can all hit me with a script of everything
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  that everybody will say to them as a reason to not do business.
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  Like, so you know their scripts, right?
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  Wouldn't it make sense that you prepared sequences of words that could help steer you from
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  avoiding those pitfalls or navigating the conversation onwards from those pitfalls
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  in a more proactive basis, because I get it, you want to make it up as you go along,
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  how well is that working for you?
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  And what any professional would do is that we get ready, ready, ready, right, is if you
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  are a tennis player, you want to know that if I'm being thrown an awkward backhand shot
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  that I'm going to have to deliver on tournament day, you want to know I've done this before.
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  And I've done this in drills in a training room environment.
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  And that's what any pro has ever done is they've taken scenarios that they believe that
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  they can resist in the real world and they've hypothetically prepared for them ahead of time.
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  So that when that moment happens in the real world, they can deliver to it.
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  There's another beautiful thing though about scripting in particular, is when you know
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  your word choices well enough, you don't have to think about them in the moment.
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  You can show up to the moment, be present in the moment, let's come back to the analogy
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  of movies.
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  Some of the best movies in the world have had memorable moments that appeared off script
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  and the only reason they appeared off script is because there was a script and somebody
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  could serve the moment better that allowed them to act off of script otherwise it would
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  have just been made up in mumbo jumbo, right?
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  So we need scripts to give a structure, but actually that structure gives you the freedom
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  that you were looking for to not have the scripts, which is kind of ironic, right?
• 15:45
  Yeah.
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  So structure brings freedom.
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  Structure brings freedom, huh, that's I love that, that's very true.
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  Because then you kind of know like the operating, you know, the parameters of which you're
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  trying to operate within and you can punch in and out of those and get back on track
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  easily, right?
• 16:02
  Correct.
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  You remain in control, you can deliberately break a rule to then come back to the rule.
• 16:07
  Yeah, that's funny.
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  I remember somebody's once saying that you're already scripting, you probably just suck,
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  right?
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  Right.
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  You already have a script.
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  The way they answer a telephone, they're scripted in the way that they respond to an
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  email.
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  Everybody who tells me they don't script, I'm like, so you don't have a single templated
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  email that exists within your desktop, that you copy paste and then adjust as you need
• 16:28
  to to send us a standard response.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  Yeah.
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  All right.
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  Good.
• 16:34
  I love the direction we're going here.
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  So I heard you say on a podcast that I was listening to you with you on it that you love
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  two things, words and people or you're fascinated by them, let's say.
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  And words is obvious.
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  So let me just take words.
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  What about words do you find that's fascinating or magical?
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  Is I love how much a sentence can change by the tweaking of a simple word?
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  I like how much people can impact or influence any specific scenarios by thinking about their
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  word choices more effectively.
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  And I also love knowing and then exploring the puzzle of how much people self sabotage
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  their own life through not giving consideration to the words that they reach for.
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  And just find it like funny, both in an amusing and a weird way, hence why I chose the word
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  funny.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  Do you think people, now this is something that you hit on here for me, I'm wondering if
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  people understand, I guess those in a relationship might recognize this, right?
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  But the impact that your words can have, right, negatively or positively, how you say
• 17:47
  them, detonation and et cetera, right?
• 17:49
  All of it.
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  All of it.
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  And there is very little that brings attention to all of these things, particularly in the
• 17:56
  spoken word category.
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  In written word, there are books after books, courses after courses after courses with
• 18:03
  copywriting and headline ideas and what can be done to improve cool to actions.
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  And you know, we're all in agreement, there's nobody in an argument that says, hey, spending
• 18:11
  the time to craft perfect copy on the sales page of a website or a brochure is not a
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  good idea.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  Yet the conversations we have with customers, prospects and people are often far more influential
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  than any of that written word, yet nowhere near the same level of tenacity is given towards
• 18:27
  that part of a process.
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  Right.
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  So do you think if somebody was looking to, you know, obviously you're in sales, you're
• 18:35
  a sales trainer as part of what you do, what was your one book, exactly how to sell?
• 18:42
  The sales guide for non sales professionals.
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  Do you think just changing your script, if you will, or the words that you use, use the
• 18:50
  phrase magic words?
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  I'm wondering if there are actual magic words.
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  Can that actually give somebody a raise?
• 18:56
  Yes.
• 18:57
  Mm-hmm.
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  Why?
• 18:59
  What would that do?
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  There's a few things.
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  Is certain sequences of words will have more effective approaches towards conversion than
• 19:08
  others?
• 19:09
  Mm-hmm.
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  Also, certain sequences of words allow you to dance your way through a conversation,
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  so you're at the right point at the right time.
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  By which, what I mean is a mistake that many people make is they start to be able to make
• 19:19
  an ask for something before they've gained permission to be in the conversation at the
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  right to ask.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  So for example, is you can ask somebody to go and join you as your plus one at a wedding.
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  But if you did that cold, it would be weird.
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  If you did it at the end of a coffee meeting or drinks at the bar after agreeing to meet
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  somebody for a day, it would kind of be the right conversation at the right time.
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  So gaining to that point of permission of being able to make your next ask is important
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  from a word choice of point of view.
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  The other reason, though, that I think is even more profound is that if you, in some way,
• 19:57
  feel that you have prepared your word to head a time, you show up with two things more
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  in every conversation.
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  One is more confidence, and the other is more confidence.
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  And the confidence itself is something that allows you to be able to actually achieve
• 20:10
  better results, because you're like, ah, I know what I'm doing here.
• 20:13
  I've got some tools in my toolkit.
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  I feel more prepared for this, therefore I can show up more in myself for this conversation.
• 20:20
  Right.
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  A giant principle that is taught through the bulk of my work, though, is it's the person
• 20:24
  that is asking the questions that's in control of the conversation.
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  And you see, even just understanding that principle and then having a series of prefaces
• 20:32
  to questions that would allow you to get back on track to search for clarity and what
• 20:35
  other person is meaning, it stops you from sabotaging.
• 20:40
  That's where the increased success comes from.
• 20:43
  See, people simply need to be better at selling is like, no, you just need to be better
• 20:46
  and not sucking.
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  Suck less.
• 20:49
  Right.
• 20:50
  And then what will happen is you win more by default.
• 20:53
  Yeah.
• 20:54
  Yeah.
• 20:55
  Try and part of my principle is not embellish the option of, yes, it's destroy the
• 20:57
  option of no.
• 20:58
  If you destroy the option of no is opposed to embellish the option of, yes, you leave
• 21:01
  yes is the only option, meaning the other person feels compelled to pick it.
• 21:05
  All right.
• 21:06
  So my ears perk up on destroy the option of no.
• 21:10
  Can we get a bit tactical on how one does that and I'm going to take it out of context
• 21:15
  tell you a little story is one of the roles that I was invited into as a consulting role
• 21:21
  along in the past was helping a furniture retail business improve its conversion rate
• 21:27
  with objections.
• 21:29
  And the furniture retail business had two core profit drivers that were more profitable
• 21:34
  than the original transaction itself sound familiar to the mortgage industry.
• 21:37
  Sometimes there's greater profit outside of the core product of the mortgage and there
• 21:41
  is in the mortgage itself, but finding value to get objections towards as other things
• 21:45
  is often hard.
• 21:46
  So here we are in the furniture industry.
• 21:48
  Two big objections that we had to avoid one was people, two products we were looking
• 21:52
  to add to the furniture transaction and the objections that were coming from it.
• 21:55
  One was fabric protection.
• 21:58
  So adding fabric protection to a couch, more profit in the fabric protection than there
• 22:02
  was in the couch itself.
• 22:03
  And the second was footstores like an ottoman upholstered box, again huge margin in that
• 22:08
  product.
• 22:09
  Boss is wanting me to help the team overcome objections.
• 22:12
  I said, wouldn't it make more sense if we didn't get the objection in the first place?
• 22:16
  I said, well, what do you, I said, what do you really mean?
• 22:20
  I said, well, instead of trying to put out the fire, wouldn't it make more sense that
• 22:24
  I find the guy with the matches and stealing from his coat pocket before he leaves the
• 22:27
  house in the room?
• 22:28
  It's still got no idea.
• 22:29
  It's going to be this is what is the most common objection, reason or excuse that people
• 22:35
  give you as to why they don't want fabric protection on their furniture.
• 22:39
  And they said strangely enough, the most common reason that we got was some version of
• 22:44
  I don't need it.
• 22:45
  I'm dead careful.
• 22:46
  We don't eat and drink on our furniture, which is where I realized earlier on my career
• 22:50
  that not all customers tell the truth, right?
• 22:52
  People say that salespeople are liars.
• 22:54
  My experience is not what customers tell the truth too, because I've never met anyone
• 22:58
  who hasn't sat on the couch and had a bite of food or a sip of it.
• 23:01
  Like somebody's done that, but people say they don't eat and drink on their furniture.
• 23:06
  The trouble is though, is if they say they don't eat and drink on their furniture, I can't
• 23:09
  say of course you do everybody does, I have to accept it to be true.
• 23:12
  So if a customer or prospect says something, it must be true.
• 23:16
  If you say it, it might not, let's take the other objection that was faced, as I said,
• 23:21
  but what about the food stall, most common reason why somebody doesn't want a food stall?
• 23:26
  And they told me the most common reason was that somebody would say they've not got the
• 23:29
  space, not got the room.
• 23:31
  Having never seen their home, I can't say of course you put the room.
• 23:35
  So I took those two things and I write what's called a question tree.
• 23:38
  I write a lot of question trees for organizations and question trees destroy the option of no.
• 23:43
  And what I decided to do is instead of selling the benefits of fabric protection of food
• 23:47
  stalls, I went to work on destroying the reason why somebody wouldn't want one.
• 23:53
  Let's have a look at this in real time.
• 23:55
  Somebody's decided they want to buy this three-seater and this two-seater couch.
• 23:59
  I say, apart from yourself, who will be using the furniture?
• 24:03
  They say, well, as me and the wife, the kids, the dog, I'd follow it with a leading question
• 24:06
  whilst nodding, I'd say what and a spot of entertaining to which everybody says, yes,
• 24:11
  like nobody admits to having no friends.
• 24:13
  So they've told me they're using this with a lot of people and they're often entertaining.
• 24:17
  And ask a further question, which is why I call this a question tree.
• 24:20
  Is it going in the best room or the everyday room?
• 24:23
  Do I mind which one they pick, best room or everyday room, right?
• 24:27
  Best room needs to continue to look at best.
• 24:28
  Every day room is going to take a hammering or win both ways.
• 24:31
  I say your last piece of furniture, how long did you keep that for?
• 24:35
  Doesn't matter what they answer.
• 24:36
  Three years, five years, nine years, 11 years.
• 24:38
  I say, I guess you're looking for this to last the same time or longer.
• 24:42
  To which again, everybody says, yes.
• 24:45
  So they told me they wanted to last a long time.
• 24:47
  It's going in the best room or the everyday room is often used for entertaining with multiple users.
• 24:52
  Am I in good shape to recommend fabric protection?
• 24:54
  Well, of course I am.
• 24:55
  The trouble is I'm not a fan of good shape.
• 24:57
  There's a thing I prefer as a thing called certainty.
• 25:01
  So I wrote another question.
• 25:02
  See, I learned if I preface a direct question with a simple sequence of magic words,
• 25:07
  I can get just about anybody to agree to just about anything, providing unreasonable.
• 25:12
  And the set of magic words I would preface with are the words I bet you're a bit like me.
• 25:17
  So I learned that if I say I bet you're a bit like me, get home from work,
• 25:20
  enjoy nothing more than pouring yourself a glass of wine and sitting down on the couch.
• 25:24
  People will be like me, yeah, that's me.
• 25:26
  Even if they're a white wine drinker, they'd still agree to the red wine assumption.
• 25:29
  I'd say I bet your household's just like mine never finds time for a proper dinner
• 25:33
  around the table every night, the week.
• 25:34
  More often than night, it's a trail in your lap on front of the box.
• 25:37
  They're like, you yep.
• 25:39
  So now they've told me they eat and drink on their furniture.
• 25:42
  Right.
• 25:43
  So I've disarmed that potential excuse.
• 25:45
  There's more to this though, right?
• 25:46
  I've still got this footstought to deal with.
• 25:48
  What am I concerned they might say?
• 25:50
  I'm concerned they might say they haven't got the space.
• 25:53
  So I come right for it.
• 25:54
  I say this best room of yours, how big is the room?
• 25:57
  And it doesn't matter what they tell me.
• 25:59
  Three by seven, 15 by 11, 52 by nine, I'd say, wow.
• 26:03
  That's a fair size room.
• 26:06
  How big is a fair size room?
• 26:08
  Well, it's like a fair size.
• 26:10
  So I mean, good shape based on the fact that we've labeled this a fair size room,
• 26:14
  but I'm not done.
• 26:16
  Let's say you're buying a three-seater and a two-seater,
• 26:18
  how would you lay it out in the room?
• 26:20
  And they try and explain it to me.
• 26:21
  I'd put a sheet of paper down and say, can you draw it?
• 26:25
  As they're drawing out, I realized that everybody other than architects
• 26:28
  draws the room giant and the furniture tiny.
• 26:31
  They make it space for me in the diagram.
• 26:33
  As they're doing the diagram, I'm saying, when you're entertaining,
• 26:36
  what do you do for extra seats?
• 26:37
  Hmm.
• 26:38
  They say, well, like we're dragging chairs around from other rooms,
• 26:41
  some people are sat on the floor and some people are sat on each other's lap.
• 26:43
  And I'm like, wow, that kind of party.
• 26:45
  But anyhow, well, I then say, is it what about storage?
• 26:49
  They say we've never got enough room for storage.
• 26:53
  And now, again, I mean, great shape to recommend a foot store or an ottoman,
• 26:57
  but I don't like great shape.
• 26:58
  What do I prefer?
• 26:59
  I prefer certainty is what I'm looking for.
• 27:03
  So I wrote one more question.
• 27:04
  Bear in mind, this is a British retailer where almost everybody celebrates
• 27:08
  the same holiday on the 25th of December.
• 27:11
  So the question I wrote is one of the greatest questions of my career.
• 27:13
  The question I wrote is Christmas time, where does the tree go?
• 27:18
  Why?
• 27:19
  Because if you've got room for a Christmas tree, you've got room for a foot store.
• 27:22
  I just found it's home for 11 months of the year.
• 27:24
  Wow.
• 27:26
  It allowed me to do something really simple.
• 27:28
  And I know the story's a long way in getting there,
• 27:30
  but that's the way you need to work around if you want to increase
• 27:33
  the efficiencies and new conversions, right?
• 27:35
  Is that was remarkably predictable for every set of circumstances?
• 27:38
  I could take that series of questions.
• 27:40
  What it allowed me to be able to do, though, is to understand what selling
• 27:43
  really is.
• 27:44
  The selling is earning the right to make a recommendation,
• 27:47
  which means you should never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever invite somebody
• 27:52
  to be able to do something unless you can say these words first.
• 27:55
  And the words you should look to say first are the words because of the fact
• 27:58
  that you said, because of the fact that you said X, Y, and Z for those reasons,
• 28:04
  what I'd recommend is A, B, and C. It allowed me in this scenario to say
• 28:07
  because of the fact that you said this is going in your best room and you're
• 28:10
  often entertaining and you want it to last a long time.
• 28:12
  What I'd recommend you do is you get your fabric professionally sealed
• 28:14
  at the factory.
• 28:16
  Hey, remember the fact that you said when you're entertaining that sometimes
• 28:19
  you struggle for extra seats.
• 28:20
  What most people do is they grab themselves with footstore.
• 28:22
  It can be used as an extra chair.
• 28:23
  It's pretty useful for storage too.
• 28:26
  And if you're ever wondering where it sits, it sits underneath your feet.
• 28:31
  So it allowed me to recommend as opposed to feature dump.
• 28:36
  And so it just makes that much more sense, right?
• 28:40
  The old people buy an emotions and back it up with logic.
• 28:42
  Logically, that makes a lot of sense based on the journey you just took them
• 28:45
  through.
• 28:46
  And there's a motion less than the journey.
• 28:48
  Why?
• 28:48
  Because what people are doing is seeing themselves in those scenarios.
• 28:51
  Right.
• 28:52
  And they're picturing themselves in those situations out.
• 28:54
  And the same thing would be true in the mortgage world, right?
• 28:56
  Nobody wants a mortgage.
• 28:57
  People want to own their home.
• 28:59
  They don't just want to own their home.
• 29:00
  They want to own their home in a way that is congruent to the lifestyle
• 29:03
  they're looking for.
• 29:04
  So is this something they want to get unencumbered in the shortest period of time?
• 29:07
  Are they looking for the shortest, you know, the lowest-monthly payment
• 29:10
  in the immediate term?
• 29:10
  Do they perceive they're going to be making more money in the future or less money
• 29:13
  in the future?
• 29:14
  Like all these things come to light, right?
• 29:17
  But these are the things that should allow us to be able to make recommendations.
• 29:21
  No, I love what you said, right?
• 29:22
  You don't have the right to sell unless what is your permission?
• 29:25
  A half-time?
• 29:26
  It's earning the right to be able to make a recommendation.
• 29:28
  It's earning the right.
• 29:29
  Yeah, to make a recommendation.
• 29:30
  Yeah.
• 29:31
  With life insurance, you have to be able to say things like
• 29:34
  because of the fact that you said, right, right.
• 29:37
  But if anything tragic happens to your husband,
• 29:39
  that you'd be left in a fairly awkward position,
• 29:42
  and what I'd recommend that we do is that we explore some of the options
• 29:45
  with regards to life insurance.
• 29:47
  Right.
• 29:47
  Now, there's a lot of parallels for mortgage and real estate for those listening.
• 29:50
  I'm sure you're getting some ideas.
• 29:51
  Obviously with real estate, right?
• 29:52
  We're trying to future pays people into seeing themselves in the home
• 29:55
  and how they're going to use the different parts of it with the mortgage.
• 29:58
  Obviously, we're trying to, I know myself and many others,
• 30:02
  move to a more consultive type role in the conversations we have with clients.
• 30:07
  So that, again, it gets back to questions, 100%.
• 30:10
  I love that.
• 30:11
  And better questions, too, as well,
• 30:13
  which is what we can think about.
• 30:14
  Well, it's both real estate and mortgage a lot.
• 30:16
  Is I see lazy questions.
• 30:19
  Looking for a fixed rate or a variable rate mortgage?
• 30:22
  Like, like, yeah, right.
• 30:24
  That's, that's, that's not going to be.
• 30:28
  No, so it's, it's funny, though, talking about this.
• 30:30
  It's, it sounds wonderful.
• 30:31
  And I, I didn't want to leave the original point of why do people have resistance
• 30:35
  about scripting dialogues.
• 30:38
  Look at, I'm even resisting using the word scripting to your point.
• 30:42
  You said, because people are lazy.
• 30:45
  And I think, look, that's the hard truth.
• 30:47
  But what I love about, like, the book you wrote, what to say for real estate
• 30:50
  agents, is you map out so many done for you questions that are simple,
• 30:54
  swipe and deploy.
• 30:56
  And their prefaces to questions more often.
• 30:58
  Right.
• 30:59
  Do you take people through the journey?
• 31:01
  Yes.
• 31:01
  You know, what they are is that they are,
• 31:06
  they're just invigorators to allow you to have a more meaningful conversation.
• 31:09
  Well, there are all teasers to give you permission to have the conversation
• 31:13
  that you really want to have.
• 31:15
  And most people make the mistake of asking the question they want the answer to
• 31:22
  as opposed to asking a question that gets them the answer.
• 31:26
  Say that again.
• 31:28
  Okay.
• 31:28
  Is most people make the mistake of asking the question they want the answer to
• 31:32
  or as opposed to asking a question that gets them the answer?
• 31:36
  All right.
• 31:36
  What does that mean?
• 31:37
  Let's just take a simple real estate scenario, right?
• 31:40
  Sure.
• 31:40
  What that means is if somebody is realizing that they should probably be looking
• 31:50
  in an alternative area than the one that they're in right now,
• 31:53
  because they haven't got the money to afford what they want or afford
• 31:55
  within the neighborhood that they're currently looking in and they keep finding
• 31:58
  things that are a fault, they would typically ask a question.
• 32:01
  Well, have you considered looking in ABC area?
• 32:05
  To which is almost certainly going to be faced with a ton of resistance
• 32:08
  as to why they don't want to go to the other neighborhood because they've got their
• 32:11
  hair set in this other area.
• 32:12
  And now all of a sudden they find themselves still stuck in the position for the next
• 32:15
  nine months of trying to help them find an impossible one, right?
• 32:19
  How often does this happen like all the fricking time?
• 32:21
  Yeah.
• 32:22
  Instead, if you got them to be able to say that they were open-minded to other areas,
• 32:29
  you might be in a better shape.
• 32:30
  So you do the dance the long way around.
• 32:33
  Is aren't to me this is what's more important to you?
• 32:36
  The geographic location or having five bedrooms and a minimum of 3500 square feet.
• 32:42
  But that may answer.
• 32:44
  Right.
• 32:45
  Well, in reality, the space is non-negotiable.
• 32:48
  Okay.
• 32:49
  How would you feel if we spent the next nine months looking in this given area
• 32:54
  to realize that there was nothing that meant those time, those size constraints within
• 32:59
  the price budget that you were looking for?
• 33:02
  I feel pretty darn disappointed.
• 33:04
  Well, help me understand this.
• 33:05
  What would you rather we do?
• 33:06
  Extend the search to neighboring towns and cities or increase the budget.
• 33:13
  What would you rather we do?
• 33:16
  Yeah.
• 33:17
  Well, we can't push more than that number.
• 33:19
  So it happened.
• 33:20
  Right.
• 33:21
  What do you know about or what do you understand about why many people are moving to
• 33:26
  in certain neighborhood locations?
• 33:27
  Well, I don't understand the great deal about why anybody moved there.
• 33:30
  Well, what do you know about how his reputation has changed from what many people
• 33:33
  thought about it 10 years ago to where it's going in the future?
• 33:36
  I don't know a great deal about that.
• 33:37
  Well, how would you feel if I told you that many people were looking to be able to move there
• 33:41
  because they're in circumstances exactly like yours.
• 33:45
  And the high likelihood is 4567 years on from now, that will be a neighbor that not only
• 33:49
  has grown in value, but is also full of more of the kind of people you'd like to live near.
• 33:56
  I wonder what one of your my favorite phrases from you is, would you be open to?
• 34:00
  I've been stealing that a lot and sharing it with some of my clients and just
• 34:03
  in.
• 34:04
  You have some nuances as well.
• 34:05
  I'm going to catch you on a tiny little mistake.
• 34:07
  I'm going to talk about how a word makes a big difference.
• 34:09
  People see the open-minded question appearing in the book.
• 34:12
  Yeah.
• 34:13
  And they use it as a closed question.
• 34:17
  Would you be open-minded to?
• 34:19
  Still sounds mildly threatening, mildly argumentative.
• 34:23
  Would you be open-minded to?
• 34:24
  Right?
• 34:24
  Leaving of the witness.
• 34:26
  If you change the question just to rephrase it very slightly to how open-minded would you be?
• 34:32
  Now what we've got is even more increased success metrics.
• 34:34
  I'm not saying would you be open-minded to won't work?
• 34:36
  It works great.
• 34:37
  How open-minded would you be?
• 34:39
  It works better.
• 34:40
  Yeah, because what it does is it leaves enough in the gray area for the other person to want to
• 34:44
  lean in to the ramp that you've presented with.
• 34:48
  And this is where so much of my work exists.
• 34:50
  It's like, I want to do stuff that says, with words,
• 34:55
  like, I'm just going to open a crack in that door over there.
• 34:58
  But whatever you do, don't look around it, etc.
• 35:00
  Don't look through that door.
• 35:01
  Please, please, don't look what's behind that door over there.
• 35:04
  I mean, you promise me you're not going to look behind that door.
• 35:06
  But I'm going to go missing right now for at least 35 minutes.
• 35:08
  And I won't be back in any way, shape or form.
• 35:10
  And behind that door is something you might be interested in.
• 35:12
  But you promise you won't look behind that door, will you?
• 35:15
  Right.
• 35:16
  Like that's what I'm trying to do with so much things with language that lead somebody to do their own little
• 35:23
  or like yellow brick road.
• 35:25
  Yeah.
• 35:26
  What it does is it makes the buying process fun.
• 35:28
  Right.
• 35:29
  If you think about most purchases that you've enjoyed,
• 35:33
  it's because there was a dance involved.
• 35:35
  Yeah.
• 35:36
  And it's probably because you invested a significant sum of money.
• 35:40
  We want to enjoy the dance.
• 35:42
  Not the tussle.
• 35:43
  People think people want to enjoy the negotiation.
• 35:46
  Nobody really enjoys that.
• 35:47
  They want to enjoy a dance and a trade off.
• 35:50
  Right.
• 35:50
  It doesn't want to feel like a fight.
• 35:53
  That's very funny.
• 35:54
  Yeah.
• 35:54
  I go out like
• 35:56
  when we're early days in our marriage when we're
• 35:58
  filling our house with furniture and all that stuff.
• 36:00
  You got to buy.
• 36:00
  I used to enjoy going out there and see how much the salesperson would engage in a conversation.
• 36:05
  But most of them down.
• 36:06
  It's straight up the whole price-based question and that kind of stuff.
• 36:10
  They don't lead you on it.
• 36:11
  Then when you find somebody who does to your point,
• 36:14
  it's like, wow, that was an incredible thing.
• 36:16
  You what you feel is like you feel like they really cared because of the questions they asked.
• 36:20
  Yeah. They care about the result of the result of the result.
• 36:22
  They're prepared to get a few stages further down the tracks.
• 36:26
  You say something.
• 36:27
  I have no context on this, but I wrote it down.
• 36:29
  Show me.
• 36:30
  You know me.
• 36:31
  Yeah.
• 36:31
  What does that mean?
• 36:33
  So there's a chunk that I've been doing right now to help people understand
• 36:36
  how to have conversations in this time.
• 36:38
  And it's a three-part process to say that every conversation needs to include
• 36:42
  these three critical ingredients in this precise order.
• 36:46
  And the first ingredient is one of curiosity.
• 36:48
  Right? Is showing up to every conversation with curiosity first,
• 36:52
  knowing that you cannot insert your content into somebody's conversation
• 36:56
  until you understand their context.
• 36:58
  And if you show up with curiosity, you reach a position of certainty.
• 37:01
  If you show up with certainty, you create curiosity.
• 37:04
  So if certainty is what you're looking for, curiosity is the fuel to get you there.
• 37:08
  Behind curiosity, you're led to a second ingredient of empathy.
• 37:12
  Possibly missing in almost every conversation is the failure to be able to see the world
• 37:16
  through the other person's eyes.
• 37:18
  Best definition I've ever heard of empathy comes from an author friend of mine
• 37:21
  called John Acuff, who describes empathy as caring about what the people you
• 37:26
  care about care about.
• 37:28
  There's nothing cleaner than that in my mind of what empathy is.
• 37:31
  And we miss that a lot, particularly in high-level transactions,
• 37:35
  like helping somebody secure the right financing product for their home,
• 37:39
  is I think we should care about what the person we care about care about.
• 37:43
  And rarely is that a product a provider or a rate.
• 37:46
  It's often something very, very different than that.
• 37:49
  And in every conversation we're looking for, if we're demonstrating empathy,
• 37:52
  we're hitting what I would call the show me that you know me button.
• 37:56
  And when you hit the show me that you know me button in somebody's mindset,
• 37:59
  then you get trust.
• 38:01
  So you start with curiosity, you move to empathy.
• 38:04
  Your result is you hit the show me that you know me button,
• 38:06
  which is what's earned you the right to then have the third ingredient that's required
• 38:10
  for every key conversation right now, which is courage.
• 38:13
  And by courage, I don't mean jump out of an airplane courage,
• 38:16
  or climb a mountain courage, go to war courage.
• 38:18
  I mean, just the courage to ask for the thing you were looking for,
• 38:21
  whether that was the business, the information you needed,
• 38:25
  the advice you were looking for.
• 38:26
  It's be bold enough to be able to ask.
• 38:28
  But if you ask without curiosity and empathy first,
• 38:31
  you're pushing and rude.
• 38:34
  But if you do the dance in that order,
• 38:37
  then what you do is you understand the context.
• 38:39
  You see the world through their eyes,
• 38:40
  and then you can position your ask through the right lens.
• 38:44
  Now you don't shoot and miss.
• 38:45
  Now it's just the natural next step.
• 38:47
  Right.
• 38:49
  I love that.
• 38:50
  I love that. I wrote that down.
• 38:51
  Curiosity, empathy, and courage.
• 38:53
  So if I'm going to start to implement this kind of stuff in my sales process,
• 38:59
  right, conversations, sounds like I need to a lot more time, right,
• 39:03
  for the conversation.
• 39:04
  Um, maybe, but more often than not, yes, not always,
• 39:09
  but more often than not, yes.
• 39:12
  Which by the way, I don't have a problem with.
• 39:13
  Sometimes time is no.
• 39:16
  And you need a lot more time up front.
• 39:18
  Yeah, right.
• 39:19
  The first first thing and
• 39:22
  what often happens if we break it down is say,
• 39:24
  say, for example, you've got a three-hour sales cycle,
• 39:26
  it was spread out however long it is.
• 39:28
  What often happens is people cram a load into the front end,
• 39:31
  then they get a solid maybe,
• 39:33
  and then they spend the other half of the time
• 39:35
  trying to convert them maybe into a, yes,
• 39:36
  by taking it uphill with everything I teach.
• 39:39
  It's like, let's spend two hours and 52 minutes of the three hours we have
• 39:43
  over this period of time building our case.
• 39:46
  So the final eight minutes is well, of course.
• 39:50
  Yes.
• 39:51
  Right, that's what we're looking to be able to do instead.
• 39:53
  So quite often, it actually shortens the sales cycle
• 39:57
  and reduces the total amount of time that you need to spend in that relationship.
• 40:02
  But it does increase the upfront work.
• 40:05
  Is our number one objective in the initial conversation to create trust?
• 40:10
  Yes.
• 40:11
  Is that the ultimate goal, really?
• 40:13
  Trust me as the person to choose.
• 40:15
  Yeah, I mean, once trust is existence, then like in your world is,
• 40:21
  you want somebody to be able to text you and say,
• 40:22
  hey, should I refinance this and see if we can get it better right?
• 40:26
  And you to be able to reply, yes.
• 40:29
  Like, like, that's where you want to be at or no, let's look again in the spring.
• 40:33
  Right, right.
• 40:34
  Okay.
• 40:34
  If all that works being done up front, that's where it can be.
• 40:37
  Yep.
• 40:38
  Similarly, like, you know,
• 40:42
  you want them to be able to shoot your notes and say, hey, I'm thinking to buy
• 40:44
  two investment properties.
• 40:45
  Can you run some numbers for me?
• 40:46
  Like, you don't want it to be pick me over the other yellow guy.
• 40:51
  Well, and that reminds me of a comparison we often
• 40:55
  utilize in the mortgage space specifically.
• 40:57
  It plays in the real estate as well.
• 40:58
  But that's the difference between a mortgage professional and a call center person,
• 41:03
  right?
• 41:04
  You're not going to call a call center person necessarily unless they've done an amazing job
• 41:08
  and ask, hey, I'm thinking about buying two investment.
• 41:10
  You're just not going to have that conversation versus if you are a mortgage professional
• 41:14
  and you've done a lot of things we're talking about here.
• 41:16
  Maybe use third party tools, you know, that I'm a big fan of like mortgage coach and you
• 41:19
  present options to people, right?
• 41:22
  That's when you become a trusted advisor.
• 41:24
  Well, even more than that though, as well, it's the ability to go backward in their life
• 41:29
  and then go forward in their hypothesis for the future that earns you that right, even more so.
• 41:36
  Because I still think the majority of professionals are very happy with the first win.
• 41:40
  Like, if I can get the first win today, then I mean, good, good shape.
• 41:44
  And then, you know, I keep showing up.
• 41:46
  Here's my hatred thing.
• 41:47
  Is the number of mortgage professionals that I hear call themselves trusted advisors.
• 41:52
  You have no right to call yourself a trusted advisor.
• 41:56
  Do tell somebody else calls you, right?
• 41:59
  It just catches the nuance of the language again.
• 42:02
  Is somebody else needs to say, this is my trusted advisor.
• 42:04
  If you're calling yourself a trusted advisor, then move the chip off your shoulder, right?
• 42:08
  Is what should really come to light and this and you do that through building these relationships.
• 42:14
  Remember, again, that nobody wants to buy a house.
• 42:16
  They want a house for a purpose.
• 42:18
  They want the house to be paid for over a certain period of time or to enable certain things within their life.
• 42:23
  And your job is to navigate them through all of their property transactions for the rest of their life.
• 42:29
  So you have to understand what they want to do with their life.
• 42:32
  Yes, which gets into some people listening might recognize what we call kind of like our dreams and goals conversation.
• 42:38
  Whereby, it's not just a loan application, right?
• 42:41
  You've got to get into their dreams desires, but also like really get into their life.
• 42:45
  Where are they currently?
• 42:46
  Where might they be down the road, things like that?
• 42:48
  Yeah, and this is again about how do you go about it?
• 42:51
  So you want an example of where people do things wrong.
• 42:54
  You're saying it's the dreams and goals conversation.
• 42:56
  So they say, tell me about your dreams and your goals.
• 42:59
  A version of that, yes.
• 43:01
  And then that's what happens a lot.
• 43:02
  And I'm like, jeez, people.
• 43:04
  Where is you better to say, you know, what are some of the things that you have planned over the next three to five years?
• 43:12
  Right, all of a sudden, what we've got is a move.
• 43:14
  By the way, let me interrupt you.
• 43:16
  Sorry, does it have to be in the context of a house?
• 43:19
  What are your plans?
• 43:20
  No, just, no, it could be, it could be towards anything.
• 43:25
  Okay, okay.
• 43:26
  A question I teach to real estate agents as well is they say,
• 43:29
  like, how many bedrooms are you looking for?
• 43:32
  And they'll say, well, I'm looking for four bedrooms.
• 43:34
  Like, give me the follow up question.
• 43:35
  Who are the bedrooms for?
• 43:37
  Like, who are the bedrooms for?
• 43:39
  Right.
• 43:39
  Like, the answer to that question gives you a ton.
• 43:43
  Right.
• 43:43
  Right.
• 43:44
  Well, it's for, um, well, right now it's just for my daughter who's seven,
• 43:49
  but we're still open minded about the fact that we might try again.
• 43:53
  And we've got a number of friends from out of town.
• 43:55
  They'll like to come and stay and we've moved away from families.
• 43:57
  Okay, that context is so useful.
• 44:01
  Instead, we're like, all right, four bedrooms.
• 44:03
  Let's plug that into my CRM and this neighborhood.
• 44:06
  Let's plug that in and let the magic commence.
• 44:08
  Here are here's 72 homes to choose from.
• 44:10
  But we'll meet that criteria.
• 44:12
  It sounds like what you're saying is be more human.
• 44:17
  Strategically and purposefully.
• 44:20
  Okay, because you can be human.
• 44:24
  You can program yourself to say who the bedrooms for.
• 44:27
  Hmm, yeah, but it goes back to what you said originally, which is curiosity,
• 44:31
  which I think is one of the best traits of a successful salesperson.
• 44:34
  Hugely curious as hell, man.
• 44:36
  And instead of like, you know, what term are you looking for on your mortgage?
• 44:42
  Is how soon will you only hope into own your home?
• 44:46
  You mean, have a bit of opens up the conversation about, okay?
• 44:49
  Right, right.
• 44:50
  Have you thought about 20 year?
• 44:52
  Let's look at some other ways that you might be able to do it.
• 44:54
  Oh, I like to own it in the shortest period of time.
• 44:57
  So is there any possibility that you might have lump sums that you're looking to be able to
• 45:01
  pay off for strategic points over the next few years?
• 45:03
  Well, as it happens, yeah, we get like a two-year bonus that sometimes is pretty decent.
• 45:08
  So we, so you'd probably be looking for some form of financing that has no earlier pre-payment
• 45:13
  repayment like penalty.
• 45:15
  Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 45:15
  I'd be looking for that.
• 45:18
  Right, and you can start to actually shape a product that is better for their circumstances.
• 45:23
  Right.
• 45:25
  Because you might ask the question is how soon will you hope in own your home?
• 45:28
  And they're like, well, like in Venice, we're probably never going to own this,
• 45:31
  because we're only going to be here three, four, five years.
• 45:34
  And then we look to trade up again.
• 45:35
  So this is about us being able to customize the home for existing needs.
• 45:40
  And just have the lowest monthly payment over this period of time,
• 45:43
  whilst we're working on our careers.
• 45:44
  Okay.
• 45:45
  So what you're looking for is the lowest monthly payment right now,
• 45:49
  knowing that the goal is to be able to build some equity in this piece so that you can then
• 45:53
  either move back closer towards family once your career is taken up here.
• 45:57
  Yeah, that's the plan.
• 45:58
  Okay.
• 46:00
  Yeah, and how much better does that feel, right?
• 46:02
  For the end user, I'll use that term.
• 46:05
  Need to come up with a better one, right?
• 46:07
  That's the less human.
• 46:07
  But family, this needs your work.
• 46:10
  Family.
• 46:10
  Family.
• 46:11
  Yeah, you know, that's a good point.
• 46:12
  A lot of people in industry talk about families helped every year.
• 46:15
  Yeah.
• 46:16
  Instead of loans closed, it's a family's helped.
• 46:18
  Yep.
• 46:19
  We're served rather.
• 46:21
  All right, well, let's do this for the remaining minutes we've got.
• 46:23
  This has been great.
• 46:24
  I've got a couple of points down around objection handling.
• 46:26
  Let's face it.
• 46:26
  Everybody faces some type of ejection of your own sales.
• 46:30
  And this is what I love about your book.
• 46:31
  You've got very, if you're looking for tactical people,
• 46:33
  you got to go get the book.
• 46:34
  We'll put a link in the show notes.
• 46:36
  It's exactly what to say.
• 46:38
  The one for real estate agents, like I said,
• 46:39
  makes a great gift, makes a good book club,
• 46:41
  book study, whatever you want to do.
• 46:43
  All right.
• 46:46
  I love the transition kind of, I guess that's who you are.
• 46:50
  You're all about transitions, right?
• 46:52
  Here's what I love that you wrote.
• 46:53
  I think this is you.
• 46:54
  Success is created from doing the basics
• 46:56
  at a high standard consistently, right?
• 47:00
  To me, I love that.
• 47:00
  That's fundamental because talking to people,
• 47:04
  dialogue, what you say and how your skill level
• 47:07
  at engaging people, I think, is a fundamental skill.
• 47:10
  It's blocking and tackling, you know?
• 47:13
  Let's bring that back to objections here.
• 47:19
  You said this kind of blew me away.
• 47:21
  Your presentation should negate the need for questions.
• 47:26
  The hell are you talking about there?
• 47:31
  Okay.
• 47:32
  If you have questions
• 47:34
  through the consultation process, the comprehensive.
• 47:38
  When you then present a solution to somebody,
• 47:41
  the response should be, of course,
• 47:44
  there should be no need for somebody to come back and say,
• 47:46
  tell me some more about that or yeah,
• 47:48
  but what about or how about the other?
• 47:50
  Is it should just be well, of course?
• 47:52
  And are you married?
• 47:55
  Yes.
• 47:57
  When you asked the question of your wife to marry you,
• 48:02
  how confident did you feel that she was going to give you a positive response?
• 48:08
  The sentence serves.
• 48:10
  There's actually a story behind that,
• 48:11
  but you want a number?
• 48:13
  You want a percentage?
• 48:14
  I want a number.
• 48:15
  Yeah, where were you at?
• 48:17
  I was, see, I might not be the perfect example of this, however,
• 48:21
  to give you a number.
• 48:22
  I would say realistically,
• 48:25
  my guts telling me to tell you 50%,
• 48:29
  but I want to say 70%,
• 48:30
  but the truth is I wasn't 100% sure, what you said.
• 48:33
  Okay.
• 48:33
  So you were shooting early without a huge level of certainty,
• 48:36
  wishing hoping and praying for this to be a yes.
• 48:39
  I was like, this is my last shot at keeping this woman.
• 48:42
  I've got to ask her to marry me.
• 48:43
  Okay.
• 48:45
  What's interesting is the majority of people
• 48:48
  when asked that question, they're shooting with a far higher number.
• 48:51
  Oh, I know.
• 48:51
  I know.
• 48:52
  That's why I knew you were going.
• 48:53
  I was like, I didn't want to, yeah.
• 48:55
  And then there's no right answer.
• 48:56
  There's just a response to the answer that you get.
• 48:58
  Right, right.
• 49:00
  I hear people say like 93, 92, 74, 68,
• 49:06
  but it's normally the right side of 50.
• 49:08
  So they're feeling somewhere near certain.
• 49:10
  Right.
• 49:11
  The, we're both on the same page.
• 49:13
  Yeah, let's, let's face it.
• 49:15
  I had to feel certain amount of certainty to do it as well.
• 49:17
  Right.
• 49:17
  So I was definitely on the, on the higher side of certainty, for sure.
• 49:21
  Wasn't 90, but different context.
• 49:23
  So that's the level we're looking to get to,
• 49:26
  though, when we're making an uniform of sales presentation,
• 49:28
  is that what we've done is we've done enough pre-work
• 49:31
  to say that we're both on the same page.
• 49:33
  This is just the natural next step.
• 49:35
  Right.
• 49:35
  And if it's the natural next step,
• 49:37
  then you could lead towards that without the need
• 49:39
  to expect any friction back in the other direction.
• 49:41
  All that's going to happen next is planning
• 49:43
  for what happens next.
• 49:45
  All right, I mean, I'm going to interrupt you again,
• 49:46
  because this is what I do.
• 49:47
  I get real specific.
• 49:48
  How do I know I'm ready to go to the natural next step?
• 49:52
  Well, let's look at the furniture example that I gave earlier on.
• 49:55
  Okay.
• 49:55
  I've collected the evidence of the fact that they say,
• 49:58
  this is going in the best room.
• 49:59
  They wanted to last a long time,
• 50:01
  and they're often entertaining.
• 50:02
  What I'm doing is I'm like, I'm banking that,
• 50:04
  I'm banking that, I'm banking that.
• 50:07
  What else?
• 50:08
  I'm looking at the saying, I need to collect these,
• 50:11
  these pearls of evidence for me to be able to say,
• 50:14
  because of the fact that you said,
• 50:16
  if I can't say because of the fact that you said A, B, and C,
• 50:18
  for those reasons what I recommend is X, Y, and C,
• 50:20
  then I'm pitching and I'm hoping.
• 50:24
  Now, I would view every sales conversation like a courtroom,
• 50:28
  where you're looking to the judge and jury for a verdict,
• 50:32
  but you want to make sure that what you've done is you've exhausted
• 50:34
  the questioning of the witnesses ahead of time,
• 50:37
  so that you feel that you've got the best shot
• 50:39
  of getting the outcome that you are looking for from the jury.
• 50:43
  That's where I'm coming at this moment.
• 50:44
  Is that like the attorney never asked?
• 50:47
  Right. Is that like the attorney never ask a question?
• 50:48
  You don't know the answer to?
• 50:50
  Correct.
• 50:50
  Correct.
• 50:51
  Or never ask a question that you're uncomfortable with the answer to.
• 50:57
  Because you've got to be able to have,
• 50:58
  sometimes a plan B, C, D, and E, right,
• 51:00
  is that if you don't get the outcome you're looking for,
• 51:02
  and the beauty of speaking in terms of questions
• 51:04
  is if you shoot and miss, you couldn't shoot again.
• 51:07
  Yeah, by the way, it's funny when I said that.
• 51:09
  I think the one exception to the asking the question,
• 51:12
  answer you're not uncomfortable with, I guess that would play.
• 51:15
  I was thinking about the curiosity thing.
• 51:17
  Of course, you're going to ask questions when you're curious,
• 51:19
  you may not know the answer to.
• 51:21
  Right.
• 51:22
  Right, because what you're looking for is you're looking for that context.
• 51:25
  Yes.
• 51:25
  You are happy that you probably have experience
• 51:28
  in regardless of how they answer,
• 51:30
  that you have the ability to be able to steer it from here.
• 51:33
  So, what I'm going to say to the many people make is,
• 51:35
  is if you were a restauranter,
• 51:40
  and you were looking to serve the perfect dish for somebody,
• 51:42
  you'd probably want to ask a good series of questions first,
• 51:47
  to be able to make sure that you're not dealing with any gluten intolerance,
• 51:51
  if there's a food preference around,
• 51:53
  like whether they are vegan, vegetarian, pescatarian,
• 51:56
  whether they're on any other form of diet,
• 51:58
  you'd want to know about more, what their favourites are.
• 52:01
  And the more that you can gather on that,
• 52:03
  the more confident you would have in saying,
• 52:04
  here's a perfect dish for you.
• 52:06
  If what you've said is I've got this amazing dish,
• 52:08
  it's brilliant, here's all the reasons why it's awesome.
• 52:10
  Right.
• 52:11
  You could serve up a raw beef tartar
• 52:15
  to a vegan activist,
• 52:18
  and then be remarkably confused why they didn't love it.
• 52:21
  Right, right.
• 52:23
  And it's not because the dish wasn't right,
• 52:25
  it's because the dish wasn't right for the person,
• 52:27
  which is why it's back towards the person.
• 52:29
  And it's acceptance that your content without context is only ever noise.
• 52:35
  Nobody needs more noise in their life.
• 52:38
  So if you do the work to understand the context,
• 52:40
  and then you insert your content, now you're helpful.
• 52:43
  All right, I love that.
• 52:44
  What do you see?
• 52:45
  I'm also a big believer in that,
• 52:47
  and I'm keeping my eye on a clock,
• 52:49
  so we're going to go fast here and wrap this up.
• 52:50
  But I'm also a believer in an opening statement of differentiation
• 52:56
  is important.
• 52:57
  You feel the same way?
• 52:59
  Can you explain to me what an opening statement would be?
• 53:02
  Well, obviously in the mortgage space,
• 53:04
  people are calling most likely being trained to ask what's your rate,
• 53:08
  and they have some preconceived notions
• 53:10
  if they haven't dealt with as individual before.
• 53:12
  So I like to kind of interrupt that pattern,
• 53:14
  if you will, and open up with some context or whatever.
• 53:17
  But ultimately get to,
• 53:19
  like, here's what's different about us, right?
• 53:21
  I'm sure most other originate,
• 53:22
  you know what I'm saying?
• 53:22
  Go that direction.
• 53:24
  I like it.
• 53:25
  It can be evolved upon also with a question.
• 53:29
  Okay.
• 53:31
  Such a ask.
• 53:32
  So if they come in and say,
• 53:33
  what's your rate?
• 53:35
  Yep.
• 53:36
  You say, well, we have dozens of different products,
• 53:39
  the very between here and here,
• 53:41
  depending on the only individual circumstances.
• 53:44
  What do you understand about the different types of providers
• 53:47
  that exist within the mortgage space within your locality?
• 53:51
  I understand about.
• 53:52
  And you watch now they go,
• 53:54
  well, I understand like I can get my bank
• 53:57
  or I can go through like a third party elsewhere
• 53:59
  or like I mean,
• 54:00
  you'll probably get to a conclusion
• 54:01
  where they don't understand a great deal.
• 54:03
  Right.
• 54:03
  So you could then say,
• 54:04
  so as well as rate,
• 54:07
  would it help if you understood a little bit about
• 54:09
  the different types of people
• 54:10
  that you could work within this space?
• 54:12
  So you could find out what was going to be the best fit for you
• 54:15
  to which every human being on the planet says,
• 54:17
  well, yeah, of course it would.
• 54:18
  Right.
• 54:19
  I then might say, well, the way I see it
• 54:21
  is you really have three options.
• 54:23
  Option one is that you can
• 54:25
  know plug into your bank lending facilities
• 54:30
  and have a limited pot of resources
• 54:32
  yet with the transparency of them
• 54:34
  knowing your financial background
• 54:36
  and potentially be able to secure something slightly easier
• 54:39
  but typically a less than competitive rate.
• 54:43
  Option two is that you can try and get direct
• 54:47
  to a lender elsewhere
• 54:50
  by trying to compare and contrast
• 54:52
  all the different products that are out there
• 54:54
  in the wild, wild west of a lending portfolio
• 54:57
  and try and make the smartest move yourself
• 54:59
  without necessarily the knowledge and understanding
• 55:01
  of all the key things that you should be looking for.
• 55:04
  Thirdly, you can work with an independent broker
• 55:05
  like ourselves
• 55:06
  who has access to the whole of the market
• 55:09
  yet is truly focused on you and your success
• 55:12
  and knowing that what we can do is align
• 55:14
  the perfect type of product
• 55:16
  to your unique set of circumstances.
• 55:19
  So help me understand when you're looking
• 55:21
  for just the cheapest rate
• 55:23
  or when you're looking for
• 55:24
  somebody who understands your circumstances
• 55:26
  in this entirety.
• 55:28
  I like that.
• 55:29
  The same thing, right?
• 55:30
  It's a patent interrupt.
• 55:31
  Is what we're looking for?
• 55:32
  Right.
• 55:33
  But it's also interrupt
• 55:35
  with the
• 55:36
  specific curiosity.
• 55:37
  Right.
• 55:39
  Absolutely love that.
• 55:40
  Okay.
• 55:40
  So I'm going to, like I said,
• 55:44
  just recommend people get your book
• 55:45
  because there's a couple of questions
• 55:46
  you have here regarding objection handling.
• 55:51
  And let's just finish with this one
• 55:52
  when it comes to the phrase,
• 55:54
  I know people use this a lot.
• 55:55
  They often say at the end,
• 55:57
  do you have any questions?
• 56:00
  Yeah.
• 56:00
  It's the student.
• 56:01
  So let's come back to the point earlier on
• 56:03
  when you said, why do I love words so much?
• 56:04
  And it's sometimes because
• 56:05
  a subtle change of words can make a profound difference.
• 56:08
  If you finish a presentation
• 56:09
  with the words, do you have any questions?
• 56:11
  What you suggested to the other person
• 56:12
  is they should have questions.
• 56:14
  Right.
• 56:15
  Yeah, if you've done your job right,
• 56:16
  they shouldn't have any questions.
• 56:18
  So you've told them,
• 56:19
  they should have questions.
• 56:20
  Yeah, they shouldn't have questions.
• 56:22
  So in their voice inside their head,
• 56:23
  they're thinking, what did he or she not tell me?
• 56:26
  What did I miss?
• 56:26
  Let's be honest.
• 56:28
  Let's not understand.
• 56:29
  So you're likely to bump into objections
• 56:31
  like it just needs some time to think about it.
• 56:33
  Some form of stool that says
• 56:34
  that's pushed us away for another day.
• 56:36
  Because you've suggested they should have questions
• 56:38
  even though they don't have questions.
• 56:41
  Instead, if you swap the words to you have any questions
• 56:43
  to the words, what questions do you have for me?
• 56:47
  Now, although certain, they lean in with confidence
• 56:49
  and say no questions.
• 56:50
  Now, because they've got no questions,
• 56:51
  what does that mean?
• 56:52
  It means that they've got all the information
• 56:53
  that needs to make a decision,
• 56:54
  which therefore means that they've made a decision in their head,
• 56:56
  which gives you the ability to ask for that decision.
• 56:59
  And you don't ask for that decision.
• 57:00
  You assume they've made a decision,
• 57:01
  which is to follow the advice that you just laid down
• 57:04
  and assume that they followed the advice
• 57:05
  that you just laid down.
• 57:06
  You lead the dance to the next step.
• 57:08
  And here are the words to lead the dance to the next step.
• 57:10
  It's the words, the next steps are.
• 57:13
  So the next steps are from here,
• 57:15
  is we've got a simple application that needs to be completed.
• 57:17
  We're going to do that through DocuSign
• 57:18
  or we're going to set up for you now,
• 57:20
  or I could take some basic details from you over the phone,
• 57:22
  or whatever it might be.
• 57:23
  We're just going to lead the next steps through from there.
• 57:26
  And nine times out of 10,
• 57:28
  people will go with you,
• 57:29
  because you've earned the right to lead the dance
• 57:31
  through the work you've done before the work.
• 57:33
  Right.
• 57:34
  Love that.
• 57:34
  Love that.
• 57:35
  Love those, just our call of transition statements, right?
• 57:39
  And there's some psychology behind that as well.
• 57:41
  I think that's one of those areas.
• 57:42
  People don't think about to your point about why you love words,
• 57:45
  because the words you choose, the structure,
• 57:48
  and tonality and all that kind of stuff
• 57:49
  have influence, have impact.
• 57:52
  And we may not realize that we're actually defeating ourselves.
• 57:56
  And you, I, everybody in these conversations,
• 57:59
  has a responsibility to lead.
• 58:01
  And really that's what we are.
• 58:03
  We have this leadership position.
• 58:06
  The very reason that somebody reached
• 58:08
  down to any of the listeners on this show right now
• 58:10
  is because they believe that you're an expert,
• 58:14
  which means that you have to consult
• 58:16
  like an expert would do, dance the conversation
• 58:19
  forward like an expert would do,
• 58:21
  and provide solutions in light of the information
• 58:24
  that you've gathered.
• 58:25
  Right.
• 58:25
  That's what you'd expect from your primary care physician.
• 58:30
  Yeah, just that's a whole another podcast.
• 58:33
  How we can improve primary care.
• 58:37
  I know I say that's what you'd expect from your primary care.
• 58:39
  I expect that's not what we're getting though.
• 58:42
  That's for sure.
• 58:44
  All right, listen, you've been very gracious with your time
• 58:46
  and information.
• 58:46
  Once again, people please get the links in the show notes there
• 58:49
  to get one or many copy of bills, books, audios.
• 58:53
  I'm going to check out that broadway presentation
• 58:56
  you mentioned about how to persuade and get paid.
• 58:58
  Is there a video of that as well on YouTube perhaps?
• 59:01
  Audio.
• 59:02
  So the beauty of audible original is
• 59:05
  it exists in that format and that format only.
• 59:07
  Yeah, fantastic.
• 59:08
  All right, so we're going to finish this out with questions.
• 59:10
  What a shocker, right?
• 59:13
  All right, so I'm going to finish that with two questions.
• 59:15
  First one, I kind of tried to pick these out for you in advance.
• 59:22
  Who are your heroes or hero?
• 59:25
  Who is your hero?
• 59:26
  One of the other in real life.
• 59:29
  I don't have one.
• 59:31
  Is
• 59:34
  I've learned that if you pin your heroism on any one individual,
• 59:37
  you end up disappointed.
• 59:40
  Okay, trust, do you see this card right here?
• 59:43
  That's out.
• 59:48
  I've studied success my entire life and any time I meet anybody
• 59:52
  brilliant at anything, then instead of saying,
• 59:55
  wow, I ask how, right?
• 59:57
  And I look to see what I can learn from them.
• 59:59
  And everybody from me working alongside great athletes,
• 1:00:03
  like you say in bold and spending time with my late great-grandmother,
• 1:00:06
  right, is everybody in between those spectrums
• 1:00:09
  have given me the ability to learn from.
• 1:00:11
  So my true hero is like a Frankenstein's monster
• 1:00:15
  of brilliance that has been forced together by dozens of people.
• 1:00:20
  And that allows me to be able to have
• 1:00:24
  this perfect picture that I know doesn't exist in a hero.
• 1:00:27
  That is being a hybrid of multiple others.
• 1:00:30
  And then I don't get disappointed of getting the meet heroes close up
• 1:00:33
  and then thinking that you're just, you're not all that I thought you were.
• 1:00:38
  Right.
• 1:00:38
  No, it's actually a good answer, good honest answer.
• 1:00:40
  All right, so let's close out on this question then,
• 1:00:42
  which is the one you ask oftentimes on your podcast,
• 1:00:45
  which is, what is your favorite word and why?
• 1:00:50
  Oh, what is your favorite word?
• 1:00:53
  I'm going to give you one that has been my
• 1:00:58
  my most used favorite weird word recently.
• 1:01:02
  And I just think it's a brilliant word and it's the word penultimate.
• 1:01:06
  All right, you have to break that down for us.
• 1:01:10
  Penultimate means like last but one, right?
• 1:01:14
  Last but one.
• 1:01:15
  So is I think there's so much suspense that is attached towards
• 1:01:22
  the use of that word.
• 1:01:24
  You're like, this is important and I have more.
• 1:01:27
  If you're saying like, this is the penultimate thing that I want to share with you
• 1:01:30
  or for my penultimate question or the penultimate piece of information
• 1:01:34
  that we need to work through.
• 1:01:35
  Plus it's just a word that people don't hear that often.
• 1:01:37
  So it's like, what a cool word.
• 1:01:40
  And it naturally makes you a piece smarter if you use words like that.
• 1:01:45
  So I've been having fun with the insertion of that word subconsciously,
• 1:01:49
  like it hasn't been.
• 1:01:50
  You haven't used it in a sentence yet.
• 1:01:52
  With other people.
• 1:01:54
  Oh, I use it all the time.
• 1:01:55
  Use it all the time.
• 1:01:56
  Really?
• 1:01:56
  For example, how you would use penultimate last but one in a series of things.
• 1:02:03
  Okay.
• 1:02:03
  Well, the simple thing would be if I was bringing a podcast towards a close,
• 1:02:10
  I might say, said my penultimate question is, right?
• 1:02:13
  And then position out there and like everybody would know,
• 1:02:16
  like, it's about to finish, but not quite.
• 1:02:17
  Like, he's almost going to finish.
• 1:02:19
  Right, right.
• 1:02:20
  You know, I got, I got a handful of points I wanted to share about that.
• 1:02:23
  And I'll share a point and I'll share a point.
• 1:02:25
  And then so my penultimate point is this, which means I've got one more, right?
• 1:02:28
  So it's just, it's like a double drama point in it on from there.
• 1:02:33
  And it's playful.
• 1:02:35
  It's why I like it.
• 1:02:36
  It's naturally.
• 1:02:39
  If you listen to comedians sometimes break down the joke,
• 1:02:42
  they sometimes just explain to you that a word is funny.
• 1:02:46
  And you don't know why it just is a funny or word.
• 1:02:50
  And penultimate seems to fall into that camp for me is,
• 1:02:54
  it captures attention when used in conversation that is different.
• 1:02:58
  And I don't know if that is my true favorite word.
• 1:03:00
  It is just the word that came to mind when asked in this session.
• 1:03:04
  Right.
• 1:03:05
  That's awesome.
• 1:03:05
  I guess the simple answer I should have given,
• 1:03:09
  given that I gave penultimate as my penultimate answer is,
• 1:03:13
  is the word exactly.
• 1:03:14
  Really?
• 1:03:15
  Because I'd like to want to send every time anybody uses it,
• 1:03:18
  given its basic being my word.
• 1:03:23
  Are you saying exactly?
• 1:03:24
  Is basically your word?
• 1:03:26
  Yeah, I think so.
• 1:03:27
  I think so, is given that we have exactly how to sell,
• 1:03:31
  exactly where to start, exactly what to say.
• 1:03:34
  I often do use that in your life.
• 1:03:36
  In your life, you're like, exactly.
• 1:03:37
  Yes, that's correct.
• 1:03:38
  Correct, correct.
• 1:03:39
  And every time somebody says the word exactly.
• 1:03:42
  Is one more little bonus on that?
• 1:03:44
  Is I even have my own whiskey?
• 1:03:46
  Get out of here.
• 1:03:47
  Cool, exactly.
• 1:03:48
  What's a drink?
• 1:03:49
  Really?
• 1:03:50
  Yeah.
• 1:03:50
  Is that available in stores?
• 1:03:52
  It was supposed to be, and I did it as a small batch,
• 1:03:56
  and then I kept the whole quantity,
• 1:03:58
  and I used them as gifts and things.
• 1:04:00
  That's awesome.
• 1:04:01
  That's exactly what I need on this show, actually,
• 1:04:04
  is some whiskey.
• 1:04:06
  Oh, that's awesome.
• 1:04:07
  I love it.
• 1:04:08
  Listen, man, I can't thank you enough.
• 1:04:10
  I know you're incredibly busy.
• 1:04:11
  You get a lot of people asking for your time,
• 1:04:12
  and I'm gracious that you've made time for us and our listeners.
• 1:04:15
  Like I said, we're going to put links to fillmjones.com
• 1:04:18
  and the podcast, your Instagram feed, by the way.
• 1:04:22
  I meant to go there.
• 1:04:23
  We didn't have enough time,
• 1:04:24
  but your posts on your Instagram feed,
• 1:04:25
  like the content there is killer as well.
• 1:04:28
  So we'll put links to your social media sites
• 1:04:30
  and all that kind of jazz.
• 1:04:32
  Appreciate you, Phil Jones,
• 1:04:33
  for making so much time for being here, man.
• 1:04:35
  Round of applause.
• 1:04:38
  All right, man.
• 1:04:39
  And listeners, you know what to do.
• 1:04:40
  If you like this episode, hey,
• 1:04:41
  leave us a review.
• 1:04:42
  We appreciate you,
• 1:04:43
  and we'll see you on the next one.
• 1:04:44
  Bye for now.
• 1:04:52
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