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Joy Killers: How and Why We Sabotage Joy · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health, and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I'm your host, Michael DiIorio, and joining me today is the lovely Matt Mansible. Today's episode is called Joy. How and why we Sabotage Our Joy. We'll be talking about those sneaky ways we sabotage our own happiness and why feeling joy sometimes is scarier than feeling pain. By the end of this episode, we want you, our viewer listener, to see how you might be blocking joy without even realizing it, and how you can start opening yourself up to joy in more ways so that you feel safer and grounded and more real in your experience of joy. If you're new here, please subscribe to the channel on YouTube. And if you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, please subscribe and leave us a review which helps us get into the ears of the people who need us. By the way, guys, this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. So if you enjoy these episodes, if you enjoy what we're creating here, you can support us by making a donation to the show using the link in the show notes. If you're watching us on YouTube, go ahead and tap that thanks button on your screen to show us some love. All right, last episode or a previous episode, we had talked about dropping joy, creating it, finding it within. And so today we're going to look at the ways that we maybe get in our own way. And the first thing I want to do is pick up a little thread that I. A little seed I planted in the first episode about pleasure and joy. Because something that I've noticed in myself and a lot of other people out there is that we think we're chasing joy, but we're really just chasing pleasure. And the way that I define pleasure is that pleasure is an external hit, something quick, like a think of a dopamine hit, like a sugar high. So for a lot of folks, that might be sex validation, approval, likes shopping, buying something, and, you know, feeling really good about that, getting that validation. It's quick and it's fun. No, there's nothing wrong with it at all. It just doesn't last long. And it's not the way that I would define joy. That's what I would define as pleasure. And so in the Western world, especially in the gay world, we're very, very much socialized to seek things like we're told will give us pleasure and happiness. Sex, money, parties, materialistic things, exotic vacations, and we're constantly sold this idea that these things will make us happy, will give us pleasure, will bring us joy. But, yes, pleasure is a high and then a crash. And it kind of cues that shame, emptiness cycle. If we go below the surface, we'll find a lot of shame in there. And all this to say is that we're not talking about pleasure today. We're talking about joy. So I want to just say that that's what pleasure is. Joy is different. Joy is quieter, it's deeper, it's sustaining, it's more nourishing. It could still be something simple, but it just hits. It hits deeper. It doesn't come with a hangover. That's how I know it's joy. And it's more peaceful. It's a little bit more connected to yourself, to other people. Maybe. It leaves you with a deep feeling of gratitude. And for a lot of folks who are pleasure seekers, they might find joy boring next to the rush and the adrenaline of pleasure.
• 3:18
  Speaker B: So.
• 3:18
  Speaker A: So if that sounds like you, you're not alone. I definitely can feel that. So let's talk about why joy is hard. Joy is a very vulnerable emotion. The minute you feel it, for some people, you might start bracing yourself. Like, you might get a little bit tense, like, oh, I'm getting happy. This is too good. And that's the proverbial feeling of waiting for the other shoe to drop feeling, which is very common. Brene Brown calls this foreboding joy, which is kind of like rehearsing tragedy in advance, even though it's not really there. And it erodes at our joy. And it is a defense mechanism. It's basically the part of your brain that tells you, if I don't let myself be too happy, I won't be crushed when it ends. So it's this misguided attempt to protect ourselves from what we think is inevitable pain and disappointment. And if you've been hurt and disappointed in the past, this makes very logical sense that your brain would want to offer this to you as a. As a protection mechanism. The problem, of course, is rehearsing for loss. And pain does not actually protect us. It just robs us of the joy in that present moment. So today, Matt and I are going to be answering three questions. We'll be talking about what is the biggest joy killer for us? Do we catch ourselves? How do we catch ourselves waiting for that crash when things go well? And what are we really protecting ourselves from by not letting joy all the way in? So that's what we're talking about today. So without further ado, let's get started with my lovely co host, Matt. What is the biggest joy killer for you?
• 5:02
  Speaker C: Throughout my life, it's been trauma, unhealed trauma. And joy has felt very uncomfortable for me. And I think there was a lot of grief. I was. I was caught in grief. And I've spent a lot of my life in grief and seriousness. Anger, unprocessed anger, unprocessed shame from growing up gay and not having dealt with that from a young age. So, yeah, I think that's. That would be the biggest one, would be trauma. I think the something in second place would be comparison. That's a big one for me. So comparison leading to inadequacy where it's like I compare myself to somebody who I perceive as better at that thing than I am them. And it can easily take me from feeling good about myself and my accomplishments to feeling like crap. So comparison truly is the thief of joy. That's what Brene Brown always says. Urgency. Do more, do more, do more. You can only feel joy once you do more, do more, do more. So it's like a hustle. You have to hustle to feel joy. And that doesn't ever lead to joy. It leads to the hope that you will feel joy. But it's not. It doesn't actually come when you just keep applying urgency after urgency after urgency and overthinking, ruminating. Nothing's gonna suck the joy out of me more than just ruminating about shit that I don't really need to be ruminating about. So worrying about stuff or fighting with people in my mind, that hasn't actually happened. You know, all the. All the ego crap, everything I just listed, it's all ego stuff. Our ego is such the thing that kills joy. It's such a joy killer. And I think the ego's job is to try and keep us safe. And it's misguided in the sense trying to keep us safe, safe. So it keeps us in disappointment, in anger, in these sorts of things, and it doesn't really allow us to get into joy.
• 6:46
  Speaker A: Right, Yeah, I think you nailed it with comparison. I think, you know, you know, Family Feud, when you hit the number one answer and it's like, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Yeah, I think that's the one. I think a lot of people out there are like, oh, yeah, that's the one for me too. So let me ask you in. In what area, Matt, do you find yourself. Not. Not do you find yourself comparing, but in what area does it really erode the Joy, like in. What comparisons do you tend to make? Is it in body and business and other things, relationships?
• 7:11
  Speaker B: Yeah, I would probably say.
• 7:15
  Speaker C: Body'S been a big one because I, I used to do fitness and I used to have a very, very, in my opinion, an immaculate body. And I worked very hard for it. And then over the last five, six years, I've haven't been working out, I haven't been training and, and my body's become, I would say, like an average body. And so there's a lot of. There's been a lot of grief on that along that process. And I would say for the most part, I have a deep love for my body that I never had when it looked like I loved it. So that's different. But there's also that part of me that's like, you know, I kind of wish I looked a bit more muscular or, or different things. So that can play. Play a factor. Yeah, I would say I can compare myself to other, like, people who are in this space and influencing people insp. People that have larger followings or that I perceive is making more money or, you know, again, it's all the way that my ego perceives less than. Not enoughness, scarcity. So the more time that I spend in, in soul centric energy, I love my body. I'm doing wonderful things in this, on this earth, you know, I have enough money to pay my bills. All's good, you know, so I'll come back to ego. Ego is the thing that's killing my joy, man.
• 8:36
  Speaker A: Yeah, great reminder. Yeah, for me, comparison was my number one as well. But the, the, the, the greater thread for me is my inner critic. My inner critic is my biggest joy killer. And my inner critic is the one who is comparing me in the, in the negative ways in the, in, in creating that shame and that inadequacy story. But the inner critic for me also shows up in my perfectionism. I said in previous episode that I love creating and it's so joyful to create until my, until my inner critic gets a hold of it. And then all of a sudden this thing that was giving me so much joy now does not feel so joyful anymore. So, you know, the inner critic shows up and he's harsh. He tells me it's not good enough, has to be perfect, and that just again erodes all the joy. And we know that this is just a shame story. And even when whatever I've created is really, really good and other people will tell me it's good, my inner critical always find flaws Holes in it, Things I didn't do well, things that needs to be done better, and that fuels the perfectionism. And the next thing you know, it's like this thing that used to be fun is no longer fun for me.
• 9:37
  Speaker B: Yeah. I hate that. What.
• 9:39
  Speaker C: What is your inner critic trying to accomplish? Like, I think it.
• 9:45
  Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's trying to. It's trying to keep me safe from people who might not like it. Like, it's trying to prevent people from saying. From criticizing. So I criticize myself so that other people. It protects me from other people potentially doing it. So my lesson has been let other people criticize me. I can handle it. So I'm like, listen, inner critic, I can handle the criticism.
• 10:07
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 10:08
  Speaker A: I don't need you to do it for me. Like, I'll let. I'll. I'll take the critics as they come. Thank you so much. So. Because what happens is I just get stuck perpetually trying to avoid something that is inevitable. People are going to criticize you. Anytime you put something into the world, you're opening yourself up for criticism, no matter how good it is. And we use the example all the time of, like, amazing actors and actresses and writers and business people and superstars. They have the most critics. So, yeah, it's. It's misguided.
• 10:37
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
• 10:38
  Speaker C: So it sounds like learning how to deal with criticism can be something that can lead to more joy for you.
• 10:44
  Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah.
• 10:45
  Speaker C: How are you learning how to deal with criticism? Like, what's a pointer that you could share with with me and the audience that might be helpful?
• 10:53
  Speaker A: I do think that that inner critic is useful to a point. Like, he also helps me do make. Make a decent end product of whatever I'm creating. But there's a point, okay. And so what helps me is if I can turn that away and look at what I'm creating and say, yeah, you know, am I proud of this? Am I genuinely proud of this? Do I feel good about this? Truly not letting my inner critic answer that question, but letting my higher self answer that question? And do I truly think that this thing will benefit somebody? Because of the nature of the work I do is coaching and wanting things to benefit folks? And if the answer is yes, it doesn't have to benefit everybody. It just needs to benefit, like, one other person or maybe two other people. And if I think that's a yes, then, girl, post it. Put it out there.
• 11:37
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 11:39
  Speaker A: And that's how I do it. And then if people don't like it, then I just. First of all, it's built in. Like, I prepare, like, people are not going to like this. That's okay. That does not mean anything has gone wrong. I'm not talking to that person.
• 11:51
  Speaker B: Right. Yeah.
• 11:52
  Speaker A: I'm talking to a person who does. Who does find use in it or who does say, hey, listen, that episode you did about blah, blah, blah really helps me not the, you know, 25 people are like, oh, that episode you did was so boring.
• 12:02
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 12:05
  Speaker C: It's almost like the inner critic wants to look for evidence of why your work isn't good. And maybe the learning how to deal with criticism is learning how to look for evidence of why your work is great.
• 12:17
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 12:18
  Speaker D: Right.
• 12:18
  Speaker A: And it's there if we look at it.
• 12:20
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 12:21
  Speaker A: I know you as well. We have lots of people saying thank you and we have lots of wonderful comments, but it's so easy to get tripped up on the few.
• 12:29
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 12:30
  Speaker A: That don't.
• 12:31
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 12:32
  Speaker A: Critics, like, told you.
• 12:34
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 12:35
  Speaker C: Human beings are interesting in the sense that you could get a hundred pieces of feedback and 99 are amazing and 1 is really harsh. And human beings are going to focus on the one that was harsh.
• 12:46
  Speaker B: Yep.
• 12:46
  Speaker A: For sure. That's the default. But we just need to train ourselves to look at that other 99 and like, give them the same, if not more weight.
• 12:57
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:58
  Speaker A: We put all the weight in the one. Yeah.
• 12:59
  Speaker C: I wonder if that has something to do with receiving. Learning how to receive accolades, learning how to feel worthy and how to open your heart to am worthy. I am good.
• 13:09
  Speaker D: Right.
• 13:09
  Speaker C: And the inner critic, I know is the thing that prevents us from doing that, but it's. It feels like maybe a worthiness thing on my part. Like, it's like, because I do, I. I sometimes will just read over nice things like, like, it's nothing like. Oh, yeah. And then I'll like, dissect the thing that's like, really mean. And.
• 13:24
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 13:25
  Speaker A: What I've learned is. I think you're right on that, Matt. And what I've learned to do is I have this image of like a. A cupboard or cabinet of, like, accolades and worth. And if I don't have the capacity to receive it, you can give me a hundred of them, but if I don't have a cabinet to put them in, they're just going in the garbage.
• 13:44
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 13:45
  Speaker A: So I have this, like, mentally cabinet of like, ah, this is where I put these things in that it has a place to live within me. That. Thank you. Or that nice DM or that nice email.
• 13:55
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 13:55
  Speaker A: Like, I've built the capacity within myself to hold it.
• 13:59
  Speaker C: Yeah, I like that. I. I do the same. In my email I have a folder called Gratitude and I put all the things that people have ever said nice things. So I feel like maybe a key for me is to stop if I'm in that one of those energies where I can't receive is to just not read it at that time and wait until I'm at a place where I can and. Or go into folder once a month and just really revel in the nice things that people have said and let. And try and let it in.
• 14:25
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 14:25
  Speaker A: So those. I think. I think we. I think we've hit the two big ones there. Comparison and that inner critic. I'd be very curious to hear from our viewers and listeners out there. Tell us in the comments if you're watching us on YouTube and maybe think about this a bit. What is your biggest joy killer? Is it comparison in the inner critic or is it something else? If so, please tell us what it is. Maybe how it shows up for you.
• 14:48
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 14:49
  Speaker A: And if you're enjoying the conversation we're having here, I want to remind you guys that we have events every week in the Game Men's Brotherhood. We have sharing circles where you will have a chance to share your own experiences with guys in a bigger sharing circle type of group. If that's not your thing and you prefer a smaller, more intimate space, then we also have our connection circles, which is where we put you guys in breakout rooms of three or four and you can discuss the topics of this podcast and other topics with other members of the community and other listeners of the podcast. So if you're interested in any of these events, Please go to www.gaymansbrotherhood.com and check out our events section. And definitely make sure you are on our email list because we will send you reminders and event links every month. And we'll send you the reminder for the connection circles each week. All of this is located in the show notes. All right, let's talk about that feeling, Matt, of waiting for the other shoe to drop. Is this something that you've experienced? And if so, tell us about it.
• 15:47
  Speaker C: Anybody who has trauma will have this. It's the foreboding joy. 100%. Is a trauma response for sure or a response to trauma? I should say. Yeah, I think when you've experienced so much disappointment in your life, betrayal, it's really hard to trust that things are going to work out or that you're going to get to a place of happiness or joy and it not Be interrupted by the next thing. It's very common. Common for people with developmental trauma, complex trauma, where they grew up in chaos, chaotic homes, right? Where it was always something, the shoe was always dropping, right? So the nervous system got used to spike, you know, peaks and valleys, peaks and valleys constantly. So you know that once you're at a peak, there's always going to be a valley coming. And this has been my life. My life has been full of peak and valley, peak and valley. And that, for me describes mental health issues, right? You're peaking and valuing so much that you have no consistency in mood, you have no consistency in joy, happiness. The only thing consistent is that suffering will return. And I think that that's a big thing for me. So the area that it shows up for me, well, two areas. So the one I'm. I'm re. I'm trying to interrupt this pattern now. And I think the medication that I was on is. Has helped with that because I've had consistent serotonin in my brain because I was getting it, you know, exogenously. So I think that has helped because now I have, you know, more serotonin receptor site. So my brain is actually feeling like, okay, I can actually. And now I'm off the medication and my brain is still doing this. I'm like, oh, this is why psychotropic medication can be super helpful.
• 17:25
  Speaker A: So that.
• 17:25
  Speaker C: That I think would be the one thing, because most of my life it's been, I'll have a week where I'm starting to feel good. And I'm like, okay, this is the time. This is great. I've done a lot of healing work. Or this was the therapy session where I finally got that last cry out and my childhood is finally healed. That's been like a decade. And then it's just. You get to the point where it's like, I know more suffering's coming, so you're anticipating it, right? So that's one part of it. And then the other piece that I continue to sabotage with this is my intimate relationships. I have never had a. An intimate relationship where I fully trusted. And I've gotten to the place where I've had, like, just full trust and I knew that it was gonna be sustaining and whatever. So there's always this feeling of leave before I'm going to be left or I know that it's not going to work out, or I can't trust this person. So I've always hovered in my relationships. I've never been able to land my nervous system's Never been able to land. So I don't know what that feels like to be to land in a relationship, actually. And so I know that's coming. I can feel it. It's coming. And I feel it. Actually, it's coming sooner than I think it is. So I'm excited for when that does arrive, but because that's an exhausting way to live.
• 18:37
  Speaker D: Right.
• 18:37
  Speaker C: Like joy, like you said, it needs to be sustaining and it needs, it's, it's drawn out, it's subtle and these sorts of things. And if you're always poo pooing on it with this mentality to avoid disappointment, it's like. Yeah, and the thing is, is we do it to avoid disappointment, but disappointment is what we're in.
• 18:55
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 18:55
  Speaker D: Right.
• 18:55
  Speaker C: So it doesn't make any sense.
• 18:57
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:58
  Speaker C: But I get it. I get it because I do it and I get it because I. There's this, this almost like. Like you're working with yourself to try and, and keep yourself safe. I think that's what it is. But it's not really doing that. At the end of the day, it's keeping me unhappy.
• 19:13
  Speaker A: What, what do you do? Because, Matt, you have such a deep understanding of why it's there, how it works, how it shows up. What do you do? I mean, do you catch yourself when you're doing it, and if so, what do you do with that?
• 19:24
  Speaker C: You know what? I'm too new to this right now. Like, this is all very new. Like, I've been dealing with this for most of my life. And I think, Yeah, I think part of it is, is. Is not approaching life so much from the cerebral parts of who I am. Learning how to be more present, learning how to be embodied, learning how to not bring so much expectation into everything. I think surrender, surrender is what is really helping me with this because I'm like, you know what? I've spent most of my life in disappointment. I know disappointment so well that I can work with disappointment.
• 19:53
  Speaker D: Right.
• 19:54
  Speaker C: Like, it's like the main thing that I'm good at. I. I've mastered the art of suffering.
• 19:58
  Speaker D: Right.
• 19:59
  Speaker C: I know how to suffer and I know how to suffer very well. So I just think that I. There's nothing to be scared of anymore. Yeah, that's kind of what I'm looking at it through the lens. I know how to be disappointed and I can deal with that when it comes, but I'm not going to spend my life disappointed in, in hopes that I won't, I won't experience a big crash of it.
• 20:17
  Speaker B: You know. Yeah.
• 20:18
  Speaker A: And that's the, that's why I think it's easier for a lot of folks is because based on trauma or other things, betrayal, past, just call it the past. That is a well worn story. It's a well worn emotion. You know it well. Even if it's not necessarily one intellectually that you want to be in, it's. It's the one that you know. So if it's pain or suffering, you know it. And so it's easier to stay there than to stay in something that feels maybe foreign because you didn't have that right. Like joy, happiness or stability or security.
• 20:46
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 20:48
  Speaker C: I kind of look at. I am grateful in the sense that I would rather my second half of my life be. Be joy. I'd rather move to the trajectory of joy as opposed to have a very joyous first 40 years and then have my joy erode and move into suffering. Like obviously I want joy throughout my whole life, but I've. The first 40 years of my life have been heavy. I've had a lot of, a lot of suffering. And I do think that the next 40 is going to be lots of joy and lots of love and these sorts of things.
• 21:14
  Speaker B: So.
• 21:14
  Speaker C: Yeah, the best is yet to come.
• 21:16
  Speaker B: Amen.
• 21:17
  Speaker A: I love that. That's. I always say the next year is going to be my best year. I'm that guy. I'm like, the next one's my best. Not to say that the other ones haven't been, but it's just always nice think in that hopeful sense. Not the doom and gloom. So many people out there, especially gays, drives me crazy that like aging is this terrible thing. It's the opposite. You gotta, you gotta believe it's the opposite. Otherwise you will never find the joy in 40 and 15, 16, 70 and 80.
• 21:40
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
• 21:41
  Speaker A: You'll create what you'll create the experience that you believe.
• 21:45
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 21:45
  Speaker C: And I think a lot of us got in the trap of comparing ourselves to younger people.
• 21:48
  Speaker A: Oh yeah. I mean, I did that too. I think we all do that.
• 21:51
  Speaker B: But yeah. Yeah.
• 21:52
  Speaker A: That's the killer of the joy.
• 21:54
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
• 21:56
  Speaker A: So for me, the, the other shoe to drop feeling happens when things are going really well and it's, it's kind of like a whisper. It feels very protective. It's like, okay, we got everything now. Like be very hyper aware. So we keep it. It's a scarcity thing for me. That's how I would best describe it. So when things are going really well in any area of my life, it just feels like, it's this rare moment that I have to, like, grasp onto because it's fragile and temporary and something's gonna happen. That other shoe will drop. I think you nailed it with respect to where it comes from and why it's there. I think that's exactly the right reason. But my brain will tell me that joy, happiness, this moment is limited. And if I'm not careful, it will run out forever. And I'm just. It's gonna slip out of my hands and I'm just. It's gone. It's just gone forever. So what I've learned to do is gratitude. It shifts me from this is a scarce once in a lifetime thing to this is abundant. I can create this in many ways. I can create this again. This is a beautiful thing that will happen over and over and over and over again. And I also remind myself that joy isn't meant to be permanent anyway.
• 23:02
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 23:03
  Speaker A: So it's okay. It's okay if I'm joy. If I'm having a joyful summer and then my fall is a little bit less joyful. That's. That's. That's fine. That's what life is. These are temporary, fleeting states of being, and that's okay. So the antidote for me, you know, how I deal with that forebode, enjoy, or that sense of the other shoe's gonna drop is kind of like, yeah, the other shoe will drop in its own way, and I'll be okay. I trust myself that I've been able to handle it, and I will be able to handle it. And it's not supposed to always be joyful anyway. And I. What I try to do is. I try to. I think what it is, is worry will kill the joy. Like, the worry of losing the thing will prevent me from enjoying it in the moment. And I really don't like that. It's like going on a vacation, spending all the money, doing all the things. Going on this vacation, you' and you're in the sun, you're just doing your thing. And, like, your brain's like, we got to start packing. I just got here. Chill. And so I've been doing that. Like, chill like, we're here. Don't think about the next thing. Just enjoy the place you're at. That's the best way I could describe how it shows up for me.
• 24:04
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 24:06
  Speaker C: Yeah, I do that in my relationships. It's like I'm almost anticipating it to end.
• 24:10
  Speaker A: What do you do? How would I know that you were doing that if I was on the other side of that relationship.
• 24:15
  Speaker B: Hmm.
• 24:17
  Speaker C: Flaw finding, probably.
• 24:18
  Speaker A: So me find.
• 24:21
  Speaker C: Find flaws in my partner.
• 24:22
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 24:22
  Speaker C: And I would. So then that way I kind of have, like, that. If it ends like I didn't. You know, this person had so many flaws or we weren't actually that compatible. It's always like, kind of keeping one foot out, one foot in, which is so disorganized attachment.
• 24:37
  Speaker D: Right.
• 24:38
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 24:38
  Speaker B: I feel like.
• 24:40
  Speaker C: So I gotta monitor that in my next relationship. I feel like I've done a ton of work, though. I. I just feel like if I find a guy with secure attachment, I just. I know that I'll settle right in. But I always attract guys that are not securely attached, and then it makes me insecure because we just feed off of each other's insecurity.
• 24:58
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 24:59
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if it's. I mean, I know I'm speaking for myself, but I'm wondering for. For you, Matt, if it's like, I, like. My friends will always say this to me. I like a project.
• 25:09
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 25:09
  Speaker A: And to me, stability sometimes can feel like I don't recognize it as love or something beautiful or like it's what I say I want sometimes. But I'd love. My nervous system loves a project. Kind of like that sense. And I'm very attracted to that. So you have to kind of tease out attraction from, like, what you actually want and need, which is your nervous system to be very calm. Someone who makes you. Someone who soothes your nervous system, not activates it. Because that activation of the nervous system can feel like attraction, but it's not.
• 25:39
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
• 25:41
  Speaker C: I think that's one of the final stages of developing secure attachment or becoming more secure. Is your attraction.
• 25:47
  Speaker D: Your.
• 25:47
  Speaker C: Your arousal starts to change?
• 25:49
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 25:50
  Speaker D: Right.
• 25:50
  Speaker C: Because I think early stages, secure people feel boring. It's like, oh, this person's boring. They're stable. They don't activate my shit.
• 25:57
  Speaker D: Right.
• 25:57
  Speaker C: And high activation of someone with an insecure attachment is often confused as lust or love. And I think. Or attraction. And so, yeah, I feel like I'm at that point now where I'm learning how to find security attractive and stability attractive. And it's. I'm like, right there. I'm right on the edge. So I'm like, this is good. Because I'm starting to notice, like, when I'm chatting with guys and their stability, kindness, and consistency, it feels good. Whereas before I'd be like, oh, this person's too nice, or they're too. Too clingy or they're too keen. Like, all these qualities that I would Find in unattractive. I'm starting to notice. No, that's not keenness, that's actually consistency. And they are showing me that they like me. They're into me.
• 26:40
  Speaker D: Right.
• 26:41
  Speaker B: So.
• 26:42
  Speaker A: And that's just another way I think the inner critic shows up. It's criticizing others as well in advance. So finding, like you had said, finding those flaws in people is just another version of the critic.
• 26:51
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 26:52
  Speaker A: Like, let me show you all the ways that this person isn't good. So that. Yeah. When they inevitably leave or when it doesn't work out, you know, you, you've been protected. I've warned you and I've criticized them for you now. So it doesn't have to hurt you.
• 27:05
  Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. It's exhausting.
• 27:08
  Speaker A: And at the, at the core of that inner critic is shame.
• 27:12
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 27:13
  Speaker A: And then shame erodes all of our joy and happiness from within. So if deep down you don't believe you deserve the thing, the relationship, the success, anything, you will find ways to ruin it just to prove yourself right. Because we'd rather be right than happy.
• 27:29
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
• 27:30
  Speaker C: I feel like at the, at the core of most human suffering, you find fear and shame. I can't think of any suffering that you're not going to find. Fear and shame that are going to be kind of at the epicenter of it.
• 27:42
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
• 27:43
  Speaker A: That internalized shame and a lot of people don't even recognize they have it. So that's really important because, you know, I'm doing this men's group called Foundations, which is really about shame. But the reason I changed the name was because people don't think they have it until I, until we go deeper. Like, by the way, this thing that you're struggling with, it's called shame. And they're like, what?
• 28:04
  Speaker B: No, not me.
• 28:05
  Speaker A: Like. Yeah, yeah, you. Yeah, me. Yeah, him. Yeah, all of us.
• 28:08
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
• 28:10
  Speaker C: It's a human part of the human condition. We all have it, not just gay men.
• 28:13
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yes.
• 28:15
  Speaker C: Because it's how society controls us.
• 28:17
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 28:18
  Speaker D: Right.
• 28:18
  Speaker C: It's how governments control us. It's how corporations control us. They control us with fear and shame.
• 28:24
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 28:24
  Speaker A: Don't be stuck on the outside. Be part of the inside. You don't want to be. Not good enough.
• 28:29
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
• 28:31
  Speaker A: All right, well, this is a great segue because I wanted to remind our viewers and listeners that we have a incredible course within our coaching collection called Healing youg Shame. It is a self paced course and there are six modules delivered by Matt Cowan and I. We go through what is shame, how we avoid it. The social impact of shame. We'll talk about developing resilience and a deeper sense of self. That is a course within the coaching collection. So when you get the coaching collection, you get that. And you also get our other course called building better relationships, which is. Think of it as like the phase two, the next, next evolution from healing your shame, which is more focused on relationships with self and other. Plus, you also get a lifetime access to our entire collection of coaching videos. There are 45 different videos in there and different topics that are really relevant to the gay experience. So you can check out the coaching collection@gaymengoingdeeper.com for more information. All right, let's talk about. What are we protecting ourselves from by not letting joy all the way in? What do you think that's about, Matt?
• 29:38
  Speaker C: So I have two. Two things. The main. The main. The one, the big kahuna for me is disappointment.
• 29:43
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 29:44
  Speaker C: Because if I let joy fully in all the way in, and I'm feeling so much joy, so much love, all these things, and then, boom, my. My feet are knocked out from under me, then I feel a significant amount of disappointment.
• 29:55
  Speaker D: Right.
• 29:56
  Speaker C: Whereas if I keep myself in this kind of middle place where I'm just neutral and my feet get knocked out from under me, I'm not falling from high up all the way down. I'm falling only from halfway up all the way down. So that's kind of a way my ego likes to rationalize it. The second one would be shame, because if I let joy all the way in when I'm. When I'm joyous, I'm very jovial, I'm very flamboyant, I'm like, dancy, I'm playful, I'm childish, I'm all these things. And I have a hard time with people seeing me in that state because I feel like they're going to perceive me as too feminine or too immature or different things like that. So I would say I'm negotiating with disappointment and shame to. And that's what's preventing me from letting joy all the way in.
• 30:43
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 30:43
  Speaker A: Well said. You know, I think the short answer is pain in general. Whether that's disappointment, shame, all the things. Rejection, you know, abandonment. It's. If. If I get too happy, it won't hurt so much when it ends. So like you said, let's erode it so that fall is not as.
• 31:00
  Speaker B: Yeah. Not.
• 31:01
  Speaker A: Not as steep, not as painful.
• 31:03
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 31:03
  Speaker A: We're trying to protect ourselves from something that hasn't happened, but we have good reason to think it will because Perhaps it has happened in the past, so it feels very irrational, but it doesn't actually work because you're. You're robbing yourself of joy twice. Once in the present moment, for sure. For sure. Like, you're eroding that joy that's right there in front of you. And then potentially again, if it does happen, then the disappointment happens twice. You still suffer later when that loss comes.
• 31:26
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
• 31:28
  Speaker C: To highlight the importance of resilience. So shame. Resilience. Resilience to disappointment and knowing that this is. These are human experiences. We all are going to experience disappointment and shame. So the more that we try and not experience it, the more. The more that we dread it and the more that when we do experience it, it really annihilates us because we're not letting ourselves experience it. So finding resiliency to these things, which means to learn to feel them and develop tolerance to them and not let them completely annihilate you. I think that's. That's the way that we can learn how to experience more joy.
• 32:04
  Speaker A: That's exactly what I was saying. When I say, let the other shoe drop. I can handle it. I got this. Perhaps I didn't. I didn't have it when I was a kid or even in my early adulthood, but, you know, I have learned to build that now. So, like, they don't need to be protected. I would rather run the risk of making that full jump knowing that I'll pick myself up eventually. I'd rather do that because the risk is worth the reward. Let's say it's with a partner, right? It's worth a reward of having a beautiful, stable, wonderful love for the rest of my life. If that's what's on the table, like, yes, I'll take it. And it's worth the risk of it not working out, but so often we don't take that risk. We're like, no, no, I'd rather not risk it. And so I'm just gonna cut it down before it even gets to that point.
• 32:52
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
• 32:54
  Speaker C: It sucks because so many. So many people are probably having aha. Moments right now of like. Like, I'm sabotaging so much joy. And it's. It's interesting, too, because you can't turn off shame and disappointment, right? Because a lot of us are trying to avoid these feelings. Disappointment, shame, fear. We're trying to turn away from them. We're repressing from it. From experiencing, dissociating from experiencing them. But when we do that, we are also decreasing our ability to experience Joy. Because when you turn down the volume of disappointment and shame, you're turning down the volume of joy because you're turning your whole volume down. We can't just selectively turn the volume down on certain emotions. So I do think learning how to tolerate these negative emotions, it allows us to therefore keep our hearts open so we can feel joy.
• 33:37
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 33:38
  Speaker A: And we've had so many episodes about this not. Not too long ago about the benefit of negative, quote, unquote emotions and where there's so much growth in there, there's so much, you know, evolution of yourself in the darkness. It makes you empathetic. We've done so much content on this. And so. Yeah. It's not about trying to run away from negative things. It's about having the resilience. Yes. To deal with it and learning. And that's something you can learn. Like, you know, we're sitting here saying this, guys, but like, you don't just. You're not born with it. Something you have to learn. And oftentimes it is the trauma that teaches us that if you so choose for that to be your pathway and trauma, adversity, challenge, disappointment, if you want it to, it can create that resilience.
• 34:20
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 34:20
  Speaker A: And that. That's. That's it.
• 34:22
  Speaker B: Right.
• 34:22
  Speaker A: I guess this little. I think of my little gay boy self wrapping myself up in armor because I had to. That was my. That was what I had to do to survive that adolescence. Opening myself up and like, asking my adult self to, like, take off all that armor now to experience joy and be very open to vulnerability and saying, I care about you, I love you, I. I want to be with you. That feels so scary.
• 34:48
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 34:48
  Speaker A: Because my armor isn't there.
• 34:49
  Speaker D: Right.
• 34:50
  Speaker A: But that's. That's exactly what we need to learn to take off that armor when. When the time is right with the right person.
• 34:55
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.
• 34:58
  Speaker C: Discernment and who to be vulnerable with. It's a skill.
• 35:02
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 35:02
  Speaker A: Because I think works the other way too. Sometimes people will just go all in without any armor or any discernment maybe, and they for sure will get hurt.
• 35:11
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 35:14
  Speaker C: It's interesting. It's interesting because we do this work too. And it's like people might be thinking, oh, you guys are vulnerable with thousands or millions of people that are fault.
• 35:22
  Speaker B: That you know, that.
• 35:22
  Speaker C: Watch this or listen to this. But it's like, I'm not really being vulnerable with them. I'm being vulnerable with you.
• 35:27
  Speaker D: Right.
• 35:28
  Speaker C: And the key for me when it comes to being vulnerable is that can this person hold me. I'm not expecting the audience to hold me right now. I'm expecting you to hold me and what I'm sharing. So it is kind of an interesting. But yet the, the listener, viewer is also experiencing this kind of parasocial relationship with us because we're sharing.
• 35:45
  Speaker D: Right.
• 35:45
  Speaker C: It's. It's interesting how that works. So, yeah, when you're think about when you're being vulnerable with people, it's like can being. Being vulnerable in front of somebody and making sure that you have discernment and can this person hold what I'm saying? But I think being public displays of vulnerability, I think are. Are healthy. And I think we need more of that in our world where. Because that's what's really going to help with decreasing shame on our planet.
• 36:10
  Speaker A: Yeah, and I get it, because it is scary to like, you know, the, the analogy I love to use is telling someone you love them first when you have no idea where they're going to say it back. You have no idea if they feel the same way. That, to me is like, what feels very vulnerable. Like, to say I am first and mean it, and knowing that you're giving them your heart and they could just like, walk away or they can stomp on it, or they could freak out and run away like that. That's vulnerability.
• 36:36
  Speaker C: Have you ever said I love you first and it never got reciprocated?
• 36:40
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
• 36:41
  Speaker B: Same. Yeah.
• 36:42
  Speaker A: But you know what? Yeah, it was horrible. It was terrible. I cried and it took me a long time to, like, look at my wounds emotionally. And guess what? Here I am.
• 36:51
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
• 36:52
  Speaker A: And I would do it again. I would do it again because. Because I learned how to. Because I did it and survived it and learned how I wanted to. Who I wanted to be on the other side of that. I didn't want to be jaded and angry and cynical and, you know, I didn't want to be one of those people. I wanted to still have my same capacity to love. And so that is where I built the resilience from.
• 37:14
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
• 37:16
  Speaker C: I love it. I. I'm gonna. From now on, I'm gonna say I'm infatuated. I'm infatuated with you. Instead of I love you. Because I didn't even know what love was at that time. And until I can actually say, I truly feel that love. And love for me is a thing about freedom. It's about a dance. It's about, like, an equality. There's so much to love now that I've learned that it's like it's really going to take time for me to have that with somebody where I can fully be like, I love you, I'm in love with you.
• 37:40
  Speaker D: Right.
• 37:40
  Speaker C: Like I feel love for you. I feel love for so many people. But to be in love with someone's a very different experience. So I'm not going to drop that bomb lightly.
• 37:49
  Speaker A: For me, there's, I've learned a difference that there's an I love you and, and is not necessarily the same as I want to build a relationship with you or I want to build a life with you.
• 37:57
  Speaker B: Those are.
• 37:58
  Speaker A: I mean, I want to love the person I want to build a life with, but I can love you, but you might not be the one for me in the long term sense.
• 38:04
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
• 38:05
  Speaker C: I'm just going back to that experience. I said I love you to my ex when we were like, I was mid orgasm when I said it. Of course.
• 38:14
  Speaker A: Well, yeah. You love everyone when you're about to come.
• 38:18
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
• 38:20
  Speaker A: All right, Matt, what, what's, what's one piece of maybe advice we want to leave the, the viewer listener with when it comes to people who maybe are experiencing the sense of foreboding joy or sabotaging their joy.
• 38:30
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 38:30
  Speaker C: That you can handle. You can handle the pain that you know also well because you know it all so well.
• 38:36
  Speaker D: Right.
• 38:37
  Speaker C: And, and yeah, that's, that's it. Like you don't need to avoid disappointment because you already know it. You already have been able to deal with it and be in that, that feeling.
• 38:52
  Speaker A: And I would add to that what has helped me understand that and really know that what Matt is saying is correct. And I second that. And what helps me is talking to other people like Matt who can say that they've experienced the same thing and other people who have done the same thing and can experience the same thing. And doing this in community is really helpful even if you don't actually necessarily do it like one on one, like we are here. But just even reading about it, exposing yourself to other, to this kind of work can be very empowering to recognize that resilience is there for you if you so choose.
• 39:28
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
• 39:30
  Speaker C: Well said.
• 39:31
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 39:31
  Speaker A: And we have those in our, in our community. Our sharing circles, our connection circles are just two of many, many ways to do those. This kind of work.
• 39:38
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
• 39:40
  Speaker A: Any last words, Matt?
• 39:41
  Speaker B: No.
• 39:41
  Speaker C: I'm excited actually for the connection circle and the sharing circle of these because I do think joy is something we need to talk more about in our community. I feel like our community can sometimes be really focused on the heaviness, the shame and the trauma and the pain we're experiencing as gay men. But there's a lot to be joy filled about, so I'm excited to start to cultivate more of this energy in the community.
• 40:04
  Speaker A: Agreed. And it's a perfect for those of you who just listen to our September podcast about grief, this is a very nice balance to that. So both are very necessary and both are part of the human experience and we should embrace both of them equally.
• 40:18
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 40:19
  Speaker A: All right, well, thank you Matt for spending the time with us and our viewers and listeners for staying with us for this episode. If you're on YouTube, just remember to go ahead and tap that thanks button to show us some love. By the way, guys, if you're listening on Apple Podcasts, you can also subscribe to the show to get early access to episodes ad free and gain access to them about two to three weeks in advance before they are released to the public. All of your support helps us to continue making content and supporting our community, so we thank you so much in advance and we can't wait to see you at our next event. Have a good one.