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Empowering Domestic Violence Victims: Law Enforcement Strategies for High Conflict Situations with Nick Hartbauer · It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People

• Speaker 1 (00:05): Welcome to, it's All Your Fault On True Story fm, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and deal with the most challenging human interactions, those involving someone with a high conflict personality. I'm Megan Hunter and I'm here with my co-host, bill Eddie. Speaker 2 (00:23): Hi everybody. Speaker 1 (00:24): We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California where we focus on training, consulting, coaching classes, and educational programs and methods, all to do with high conflict. Now today is the fifth of our five types of people who can ruin Your Life series, and this one is specifically focused on domestic violence. And we're really pleased today to be joined by someone who has seen this up close. And in-person, Nick Harbauer who comes to us from Colorado, and I'll introduce him in a moment, but he's going to give us his perspective from the law enforcement side of things and domestic calls. But before we start, please send your questions to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or through our website@highconflictinstitute.com slash podcast where you'll also find all the show notes and links. Speaker 1 (01:26): So today, this is really, really going to be a fascinating discussion and one that I've been looking forward to for quite some time in this Five types of people who Can Ruin Your Life Series. We started talking about antisocial high conflict people and borderline high conflict people. And then in the last episode we talked about the involvement by with those high conflict personality, personality types, and mind you I'd said some not all and domestic violence. So who is it that sees domestic violence up close and in person in real time and feels it experiences, it experiences the fear experience? I don't know, I haven't been there, but we do have someone who has and it's law enforcement. So today I'm pleased to introduce Nick Harbauer. Nick has been in law enforcement for 16 years and currently resides in Colorado Springs, Colorado here in the us and roughly half that time in law enforcement. Nick has been a patrol officer and the other half of the time he spent in specialized units such as swat, working undercover as a narcotics detective and various property detective units. The last few years he spent as a patrol officer focusing on victims crimes, especially concerning domestic violence crimes. So welcome Nick. I am really pleased to have you here. Yeah, thank you. Anything we should add to that introduction? Speaker 3 (02:58): Oh, there's probably lots of little tidbits you could put in there, but that sounds good. Speaker 1 (03:02): Awesome. Do you have any hobbies? Speaker 3 (03:04): Hunting, hiking, and whatever My kid does right now is swimming and soccer. Speaker 1 (03:11): Oh, nice. Nice. Absolutely. Well, it's nice to have a little bit of a, it's a bright spot like that. Thinking about kids or something happy we do because this is a tough topic. This is a really challenging topic, if you don't mind. I think it would be interesting to hear about what a typical domestic violence call is from the law enforcement perspective. Walk us through an example. Let's start with a low risk or low level, I guess those are my words. I don't know what you would call it DB call and then we'll follow it up with more of a high risk DB call. Speaker 3 (03:47): Yeah, I would say an example of a low risk or low level is exactly the terminology we would use as well. Domestic violence for us in our area is going to be an intimate partner relationship because some areas domestic violence is concerning all family, but for us it's just intimate partners. So a low risk call would be a protection order violation that's done over the phone or by the use of pictures over social media and there is a no contact violation from the protection order. And we would go to a alleged victim's residence or work or wherever they are and kind of take their statement and go from there. That usually would mean that the suspect isn't on scene as far as a low risk goes. Speaker 1 (04:38): Okay. So you arrive and what's your heart rate doing when you arrive? Speaker 3 (04:45): Oh, it's pretty even keel, especially if you know going into it, a lot of times we'll call ahead to let the people know we're coming. It could be if it's low risk, it could be a couple hours later that we're responding to the call. So we're going to make sure that they're in the same location that they called us from and they would usually give us an indication if anything, any threats or anything, we're going to be there if the suspect was going to be on scene. So it's pretty low level heart rate. Speaker 1 (05:16): So then let's switch to that high risk that look like Speaker 3 (05:21): A high risk is when you have someone calling in 9 1 1 frantic that their partner has a weapon, a gun or a knife and they're threatening them or they're suicidal, but they have a weapon in the house, there's kids in the house and we're going there to try to separate threat from the perceived victims that are there. So we're going in there with a much higher heart rate and we're trying to assess the scene when we get there and deescalate whatever violet activity is going on. Speaker 2 (05:57): Do you always go in pairs? Do you always have a partner on domestic calls? Speaker 3 (06:02): Yes. That is typically protocols that we will go, two people will be sent because you never know, even if they're saying that the suspect's not there, they might show up by the time we get there. Speaker 1 (06:14): That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you're there, and I'm sure over time you or beforehand, you get some pretty decent training on what to do in domestic calls. Speaker 3 (06:26): Yes. And really you get training through the academy, but in reality the real training is doing it for the first time When you're a rookie and you go out with your trainer and you go to your first domestic violence call is really where your training starts. Speaker 1 (06:46): Yeah. Okay. So at some point a few years back, I believe you learn about high conflict people and began to recognize them in your work as an officer and more specifically in these intimate partner calls. Do I have that right? Yes. Yeah. So tell us about that. Help us learn about your journey. Speaker 3 (07:08): Yeah, A few years ago, actually about five years ago, a couple of Bill Eddie's books were recommending to me this and splitting were the first two books that I read. And then that evolved into, oh, I'm starting to see this on calls for service. And oh, the behavioral patterns are exactly the same and actually exactly the same every single time. And I don't want to say it's a hundred percent of the time, but almost every single domestic violence call I went to, you had a high conflict person there and they displayed all those behavioral patterns that you talk about in your books. And then once I started to see that, I wanted to study it more. So I found all your guys' books and the High Conflict Institute and started taking trainings from that and it helped more and more with that. And then that kind of developed into a passion of me wanting to dive into victim crimes more because taking your guys' theory and applying it to domestic violence calls helped victims so much to recognize the situation they were in and I was able to teach them what you taught me. Speaker 2 (08:22): What was different that you taught them once you learned about the personalities like that they won't change or that they, because that's, to me, one of the biggest differences of personality disorders and high conflict personalities is it's a more fixed pattern, less susceptible to change than 90% of people. Speaker 3 (08:45): Yes. That's huge. That's a huge point that I try to get across to people and is that they're not going to change because most victims are much fixers and they're like, well, I can do it. I have all this hope in the world that I'm just going to stick it out. I'm strong enough to fix them. And getting people to understand that there isn't any fixing is very empowering and it's like, okay, now that I know I can't fix them, I can actually just move on and be okay with that fact. I feel like I had a lot of people that would leave the relationship like that day or very soon after, just with a hour or two conversation with them, explaining to them everything that I learned from you guys about what a high conflict person is explaining that to them. And a lot of times victims don't like to talk or they like to guard the suspect and letting them know what they're dealing with before they tell you what they're dealing with is huge because they're like, how did you know that? It's like, you see the future, you see the pastor. I'm like, well, it kind of is in a sense, and once they understand it, they kind of see that they need to leave. Speaker 2 (10:04): That's really interesting. I hadn't pictured how you would approach people, especially victims this way and the predictability. So you tell them what they're probably experiencing, they don't want to tell you. That's really huge. I don't know how many other law enforcement officers have this background, but I think that's probably just a tremendous help to victims to understand what's going on. Speaker 3 (10:35): And on that point, I don't think very many law enforcement officers do, and I started to notice that more and more and just started to see the overwhelming need that in law enforcement for us to really understand the high conflict person theory and how much it helps within law enforcement and how much it helps victims. Speaker 1 (10:57): Yeah, it is really fascinating. I mean, what a huge investment in society truly, because like you said, so many victims will defend their abuser and not tell the truth. It's kind of scary, and the thought of losing that relationship is tough. And you said the phrase, they have all this hope and the words that ring in my ears are from Dr. Phil. 20 years ago, I didn't hear him say this, but my mother-in-law had, oh, she loved to put things on sticky notes and leave them on doors on all over her house, little sayings and the sticky note on the door to the guest bedroom where we always stayed said, hope is not a plan. And that just really rings true here. You can be hopeful all you want, but you got to have a plan. You got to get moving on. Okay, so when you arrive on scene, so we've already talked about kind of the aftermath. Let's say someone's been cuffed and in the car headed to the station or whatever, then you talk to the victim. What do you notice on when you arrive? You knock on the door, somebody comes to the door. How do you see or apply that high conflict personality theory in that moment? Speaker 3 (12:15): I believe there a lot of times when we are called to a scene, I think a higher percentage of the time the suspect is kind of calling in on themselves is what I had to call it and saying that they're a victim of something and then a lot of times I'll get there and they're just trying to get the actual victim in trouble for something. So what I'm looking for right away is call screen notes can show it too, but the unmanaged emotion can almost be seen before getting there just by the quotes of whatever the caller's saying. But even there's been times where I've called people ahead of time, Hey, I'll be there in two minutes. They're alone. And I show up and I get there and people open the door and like, oh my God, you scared me. I'm like, I don't know why I scared you. I literally just told you I was about to show up to your door. And not that it's a always type scenario where I'm seeing the behavioral patterns right away, but it's like an indicator, Hey, this might be some unmanaged emotion or they're just trying to fake being the victim a little bit too much. Speaker 2 (13:25): Yeah, I'm picturing that. So how do you figure out what's your structure? You come to the house, they're both there, the two of you put them in separate rooms, and what do you do with the suspect? You talked about the victim having a conversation with the victim. What do you do with the suspect and how do you assess that this is really the abuser or the victim? How do you kind of sort that out? Speaker 3 (13:54): Yeah, typically, even when they're both there, you can kind of call it a low risk at times where they're both kind of calm when you get there. You might have one display, a little bit of unmanaged emotion right away, or sometimes, and maybe it's more antisocial where they kind of don't really show any emotion. They're not worried because they know they're about to manipulate you, so it just seems like they're kind of so cool and calm. But anyway, so I like that initial couple of minutes when they're both in the same room and my partner might be talking to one, I might be talking to the other to see which one wants to overhear the conversation more Speaker 3 (14:35): Because they're trying to see what they're saying to shout over them. Like, Hey, well this happened today, or he hit me. And then the other person's not really talking to my partner. He is really more listening to the conversation and then they shout out I didn't hit her or him or whatever, they did it to me. And then once I kind of see that it really kind of speaks to, okay, I have the victim here or I have the suspect here and now I'm going to separate and go into another room. Because separating is huge because as much as victims don't want to talk or make the other person look bad, they definitely aren't going to tell you anything in front of the other person, at least not in a high percentage of the time, they won't. So you got to get them to where they feel comfortable to speak where the other person can't hear. Speaker 1 (15:25): And then when you're listening to their stories, are you listening for all or nothing for blame, for taking responsibility, for manipulation, for lies? Speaker 3 (15:37): Yes, all the above. So I would say with victims, what you see more is you'll see the real tremors with the real shaking where they're kind of scared to even talk to you because scared of the repercussions afterwards, even if it's just verbal abuse, there's been nothing physical, but there's so much verbal that they're worried about when you leave, that verbal is just going to escalate and they're going to have to deal with this hostile environment. So they're scared about what they say to you when they're there, so they kind of tremor, but it's very noticeable and it doesn't stop because uncontrollable on the other hand, I would see suspects try to fake that. Sometimes they try to fake tremors and they do it too much with their hands are really shaking, but then they stop and then it starts up again and it stops. And then with victims, they won't tell you a whole bunch of detail. You have to pry all of that out. And really, I really try to start with this is probably what you're dealing with. You're probably walking on eggshells all the time. You're probably being abused all the time with suspects. You just say what happened? And for 10 minutes you don't say anything and they just tell you every terrible bad thing this person's ever done in their life and they all or nothing, Speaker 1 (16:55): There's the blame and they all are nothing. It's a hundred percent the other person's fault, and I'm clean. I have no responsibility in this. Right. Speaker 2 (17:04): Yes. Speaker 1 (17:05): Interesting. Speaker 2 (17:06): What percent of them lie to you? In other words, if you're on a call, is it like 90% one of them is going to be lying to you, or is that less than half and they both kind of talk about what really happened? Speaker 3 (17:23): That's a good question. I don't want to say I don't want all or nothing thinking on my own part, but I don't want to say the suspect a hundred percent of the time is going to lie to you. I think a lot of times they believe their own intrusive ideations about their perceptions or they're putting their past victimization into the current situation. So it kind of seems real and it seems truthful, but there definitely is mixed in unrealistic or illogical kind of explanations from the suspect with the victim as far as them lying. I think that I started to get past that quickly by almost immediately every time saying, I know what you're going through and explaining that because that was huge to be like, I know you're experiencing this. I believe you. You're empowered now. And they're like, holy crap, how do you know that? Speaker 3 (18:16): You definitely are going to believe me. No one's ever told me this before. Even my own family doesn't believe me. But you're saying you already know what I'm going through and I haven't even told you anything. I think that's really huge. And then you might get it a little bit, they might downplay some stuff, but once they feel believed, even if you're like, well, is it really that trivial or is it a little bit more egregious? And then they're like, well, yeah, it might be right. It might be escalated to this or whatever. So yeah, I don't know if that answers your question, but yeah. Yeah. No, that's good. Speaker 1 (18:54): Well, I just want to take a quick break and then we'll be back and we'll continue our really interesting conversation with Nick Harbauer. All right. And we are back to continue talking about domestic violence, intimate partner violence. Bill, do you have another question? Speaker 2 (19:19): Yeah, so the lying person who's faking tremors who says, oh, she did it to me, that kind of thing seems kind of like the antisocial personality, whether they have that personality or just traits of that, but it's kind of that theme. I wonder if you see the other theme that we hear about a lot and that's the person that's crying and said, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have done it. I know I hit her. I didn't mean to. Do you get that where the person admits it and is sorry and sad, or is that pretty rare? Speaker 3 (19:58): I would say it's definitely more rare, but sometimes when you call them out, showing your statements, empathy, attention and respect, when you call them out in a respectful manner and show that you're going to give the attention for them to explain why and the respect of like, Hey, you're human, they will sometimes, but it is more rare, will it be like, yeah, okay, you're right, I screwed up. Speaker 2 (20:27): So more often it's the denial and it's all the other person's fault Speaker 3 (20:32): And they will generally hold true to not being the one that did anything all the way through the whole process. Speaker 2 (20:42): Do you have to arrest somebody? I know for a period of time that officers had to pick who they were going to arrest, but they had to leave with someone arrested. Is that still true or have you had to do that Speaker 3 (20:56): If there is probable cause? So if there is a law broken, yes, we have to, but there's a misconception if we show up for arresting somebody, that's not always the case. But generally if we show up, we are in a situation where there's a high conflict person and a victim whether or not there's PC or not. So even if there isn't PC on that day, PC being probable cause. Yes, sorry, probable cause a law law's been broken, so I now have to arrest somebody. If I don't see any of that, there likely has been at some point. So that's generally where I will again, take the victim aside. This is probably not the first time this has happened. This probably happens more days out of the month than not. And they'll usually agree. And a lot of times I'll ask to see their cell phone. That's actually a pretty huge thing I do in investigations because almost all the time victims will give me their password and let me look whatever I want in their phone. They're like Here, there's all of it. And a lot of times I will get PC or probable cause in the text message communication. Speaker 1 (22:08): What's that look like, Nick? What's PC in one of those Speaker 3 (22:12): Calling people? Names is the biggest one. Over and over consistently. Just constant. Just massages Speaker 1 (22:19): Like you C word or you Speaker 3 (22:21): Everything. Yeah. Okay. Speaker 3 (22:24): All the ones that are going to get the other person to be so defensive that they cause conflict back. So I'm looking for victim statements. I see. I mean because there's victims that are emotionally immature, so their defensive statements back can almost seem high conflict, but you can see the defensiveness to it. You can see where it was started and that they were drawn into the conflict. And usually when that happens, there's paragraph after paragraph of conversation because that high conflict person is now like, yes, I got you. And they're just going at the conflict over and over. And that's generally where you see something like the harassing type messages. Speaker 2 (23:09): So is name calling illegal? Speaker 3 (23:12): It can be, especially if it's repeated or depending on what time it is that inconvenient hours person's at work or if it's two o'clock in the morning. Plus with text messages, you also see that there's 27 phone calls within a minute and a half period and they're just not responding and they keep saying over text message, stop calling me, stop calling me, stop calling me. And the person keeps calling. Speaker 2 (23:37): So that's harassment then that's a crime. Okay. Do you have many with a woman as a perpetrator? Speaker 3 (23:46): Yes. Speaker 2 (23:47): What percent would you say from your experience? Speaker 3 (23:51): Yeah, that's a good question and that's something that I started to question because I looked into a National Institute of Justice study in that study. It showed about 84 to 97% of males were the suspect and were the ones arrested within all police departments over the nation. But it specified the specific ones within the study. And I was seeing that although I believe that males are more often the suspect, I think it's probably closer to a 60% male to 40% female suspect. I think that kind of correlates from hearing your guys' numbers in your guys' books and trainings and stuff like that. And just roughly in the hypothesis thing, I think it's probably somewhat close to that, which would mean, which I started to see that there's probably 20 to 25% of people that are arrested in domestic violence every day and every law enforcement agency all over the nation that are probably being falsely arrested. Speaker 1 (25:04): What percent? 20? Speaker 3 (25:06): I would think it's somewhere around 20 or 25% based off of that study. And I think the arrest should correlate more to what percentage of people are high conflict, high conflict persons or not. I think there's a direct correlation there and obviously haven't professionally studied that, but as I've gone through investigations, that's kind of what I've seen, even though I haven't taken my own arrest stats and compared them, but I would think that that is what it probably should be. Speaker 2 (25:41): Well, it's interesting. I just want to say that the big study on the prevalence of personality disorders that was done like 2002 to 2008 came out that borderline personalities about 47% male, 53% female, so almost equal. And we see that borderline pattern in a lot of male domestic violence perpetrators, but antisocial was about 26% female and 74% male. So the prevalence of female borderlines and anti socials is much higher than I think most people think it's still a minority. And I don't want to say that it's 50 50 and everything's equal, but I think that you're right that it kind of flies under the radar. And there may be, and I've had cases as a lawyer like this with male clients where they were accused of being a perpetrator when in fact the female was in fact the one who had been violent and with a history of that. So it's interesting. I think people should know that but also not say, well men are just as abused as women. That's not true. It's still more of a male thing. Speaker 3 (26:59): Yes, I think so. Speaker 2 (27:00): What about children? So if there's children in the household, how do you deal with that? What do the children generally seem like and how do you deal with that? If you have to send away one of the parents? Speaker 3 (27:16): Depending on the age of the children, I may or may not talk with them. I will try to arm the victim parent with the best knowledge that they can give the children. I would say when children are involved, I try to really let the victim know the amount of emotional damage is being caused to the kids and how it's not about them, it's more about the kids. And getting out of that situation as soon as possible is only going to help the children's emotional state almost immediately because experiencing the same, they walk on the same eggs shells that the victim does, and there's no safe place. If the victims doesn't feel safe, then the children aren't really feeling safe and they're constantly just being withdrawn from conversation or whatever because their emotional state is kind of a survival and just, I don't want to say anything because dad or mom's going to come after me after if I say anything. Speaker 3 (28:21): But there is times where I will speak to the children about what's occurring, but I really try to leave that up to the victim parent to many times. We'll give them your guys' material or suggest to them multiple different books depending on what their situation is. I suggest different books, but I usually give them a whole bunch of, and then I give them your guys' website and everything. And if I'm not able to get across to people exactly in the couple hours I spent with them, once they read one of your guys' books, they almost immediately will reach out, thank you so much. I can't believe I didn't read this before. I completely understand now I've moved out, I'm living with my parents, or I got a place or whatever. And at least in the meantime, that kind of calms everything down. The kids can feel calm and they feel calm, even if there's not kids involved, you can kind of separate and then kind of see what goes on. And sometimes the domestic violence continues, especially in stalking cases. Speaker 1 (29:29): And that's one of the questions I wanted to ask, but I had one comment about the children and that said, if you as the parent, whether you're male or female, show your kids that this isn't okay, you show them that they deserve to be protected, that's what you're really teaching them is I deserve to be protected. And if you stay in that situation, long-term, I think children begin to develop a belief. A belief that they don't deserve to be protected. And then what does that say when they reach adulthood? What kind of relationships are they going to get in? Are they going to repeat the cycle because they think they deserve it? They're used to it. I don't know. Just my thoughts. So let's talk about two things here, stalking, and then we're going to talk about orders of protection. So how common is stalking? Speaker 3 (30:20): I'd say it's a lot more common than people think, especially we see it quite a bit. Even sometimes someone will continue stalking, even if they know police are seeing their stalking patterns, they think they're just going to be better next time and be smarter than you, and they're going to get away with it the next time. But sometimes when people are kind of stalking, they're trying to continue that manipulation process of talking the victim in one last time to coming back to repeating the cycle. And if law enforcement intervenes once or twice, they kind of get the hint and go away. Speaker 1 (30:57): And that might be the person who fears abandonment. Speaker 3 (31:00): Yes. Speaker 1 (31:01): So they feel like they have to be connected and it doesn't seem unusual to them that they're driving past the other person's house 42 times a week or sending all those emails or monitoring phones, things like that, right? Speaker 3 (31:15): Yes. And I think that's where the cars method and the ears method really help if you're able to try to have some of that compassion for the suspects, knowing that they probably had some type of childhood trauma that caused this, especially that's why I stick your guys' stuff even more to once I understood those methods more and developing more of that passion, empathy for the suspects. So you're really able to apply that your statements very Speaker 1 (31:49): Effectively, probably Speaker 3 (31:51): Very effectively. And if you kind of like, Hey, you can't do this because I understand that you missed this person or whatever, but it's just not working, or however you explain that and you explain it with empathy instead of aggression and a lot of times, but not always, they seem to kind of get it a little bit more and they in some cases will thank you, but you definitely don't get that all the time. Speaker 2 (32:20): That's great. Speaker 1 (32:21): Yeah. So then let's go to the more extreme stalking cases. What did those look like maybe with someone that needs to dominate, that antisocial? That to me seems scarier. Speaker 3 (32:32): Yes. Cases where people have moved to Colorado to get away from someone in another state and that person is driving or never been to Colorado, but they now have a rental property in Colorado, the suspect does. And they are staying there every so often just to stalk the other person. Or they're good with computers and they're good with quasi hacking or they're good hackers or something like that. And then we have to get in touch with some. I've been able to get in touch with some nonprofit cybersecurity people that will do stuff will help the victims for free in those types of situations, to scrub all those stuff from the internet and as well as the victim ab C programs where they can hide their identity, their address and stuff like that. Those are definitely more of the extreme or the suspect. They either remain pretty silent. Speaker 3 (33:28): I think they're being very crafty, but then you have the more overt ones that will just tell us to our face, I don't care what you do. I'm going to continue to come after this person and screw you guys and et cetera. And they're just like, they're going to keep stalking this person. They know we're involved and they have no care in the world. And that's generally where it's like, this could be very dangerous. You really need to, especially if they have the financial means or their family does, it's like you need to move today. And a lot of times I'll even call family members and be like, Hey, can I talk to your mom or dad or your sister or whoever is around and explain the situation to them so they can be like, oh crap, okay, this is serious. Speaker 1 (34:09): That's incredible, Nick. That's big. That's huge. Speaker 2 (34:15): And they're lucky. Speaker 1 (34:16): Yeah, Speaker 2 (34:17): They're lucky to have you. With your background knowledge and investment in helping people manage and get away from the situation, I think a lot of people just don't have that kind of background. Speaker 3 (34:31): And once I started to understand intrusive ideations and how those can gaslighting in the true sense of the definition, how people display those kind of behaviors, they project those behaviors where they'll call in, they'll falsely report someone's doing something, but that's because they're thinking about doing it, whether it's parental kidnapping or other violent stuff. And you start to see that pattern more and then you can start to go, this is actually pretty dangerous. And not noticing that trend with other officers. And even some of our domestic violence detectives and stuff like that aren't really, I don't see that they really understand that. So that the need for the high conflict theory to be taught in law enforcement, I think is overwhelmingly huge. It needs to start happening. Speaker 1 (35:28): Interesting. So let's talk about restraining orders or orders of protection. Non-contact, no contact. I guess I would imagine with the low level, low risk, they probably work. Are there cases where they don't work? Speaker 3 (35:44): Yeah, it's just a piece of paper that someone signed. So it's not actually going to keep the person that wants to, wants stalk or wants to have communication with the victim from doing that. And I also see a lot that the suspects are claiming to be the victim and they'll make up something to get a restraining order on the victim, and then they'll, even though there's a no contact, the suspect that got the restraining order will call the victim to them saying everything's going to be fine. And then they'll kind of trap them into getting arrested so they can feel like the victim. But it's hard to say that they really work very much where usually we don't see that in law enforcement where they work because we're not getting called. Because if they work then the person's not calling us because they worked. So I don't even know what that percentage really looks like. Speaker 1 (36:45): So in a situation like that, let's say someone has a restraining order and harassment continues the controlling behavior or stalking, what do you recommend? What should a person do? Let's say it's someone who has young kids. Not a lot of financial means. Families a long way away, Speaker 3 (37:11): Move with family long ways away. If you have family that's willing, and even if they're across the nation or whatever, at least in the short term, you need to make that extreme decision for yourself and your kids to be safe and try and don't let the suspect know where you're at. In some cases, they can pull on your heartstrings, I just want to talk to my kid, I want to FaceTime my kid just to see where you're at. They don't even really want to talk with the kids or whatever. So it's really kind of hard to say do or don't talk with the other parent at all until there's of something from the court, because suspects can take that to mean I can alienate the victim, but with victims in that situation, if you have any means to move with family somewhere where you are protected and more safe and you got a witness, they're friends, whatever, without telling the suspect where you're going or trying to hide that or getting into some type of victim program where they can help hide your address and online identity, you have to start making those calls today. Speaker 3 (38:21): If you don't have any help, you're going to do it yourself. Ask friends or family for help. Or hopefully if you call someone in law enforcement, they're understanding and they believe what you're going through and they can help get those resources to you. Speaker 1 (38:32): Lots of DB shelters and nonprofit organizations and I mean there's a lot of help. So make the call. Right. Alright, well, I think we've gone almost 45 minutes and I think we could go probably several hours on this and we'll most definitely have you back. Nick, any last questions, bill? Speaker 2 (38:51): I don't know how long a question this is, but I'm wondering if you know any outcomes for the suspects or in the victims? What do you hear back later, like six months or a year later, how things turned out or you pretty much don't know after you've dealt with them directly? Speaker 3 (39:08): I do hear back quite a bit, six months, a year, even more from people, whether they're just thanking me for getting them out of that situation and they're glad they're out or maybe they reached out in the days or weeks to follow and then a few months goes by. And I just kind of like no wonder how if that person's doing, if they're still getting contacted or if they, they're still in their good state of mind, their kids are in a good state of mind, I'll just reach out and ask them how they're doing. And then a lot of times that'll initiate a huge conversation. But yeah, there is a lot of really awesome success stories that I've heard from that. Speaker 2 (39:46): And victims suspects, do they get into treatment programs? Do they end up in prison? Do you ever hear what the, I don't know if I should use this word, what the hope is for them in society? Speaker 3 (40:04): Yeah, I don't typically hear of suspects becoming better. Speaker 1 (40:10): They're not calling you and saying, Hey, thanks Nick. Speaker 3 (40:12): No, I don't think ever. Yeah, actually, and just from hearing from other victims that I don't know if I've really ever heard like, Hey, the person's made a change in their life and we're able to get along now. Yeah, I think it's very rare for, I know there's been a couple cases where there's been court ordered psychiatric help for suspects and stuff like that, but a lot of times they don't go where they just stop contact completely with their kids or they're like, screw it, I don't want to go to that. I'll just not even talk to my kids. And they just kind of go away. Speaker 2 (40:50): In family court, we've had cases that were ordered into 52 week batters group therapy that have been helpful. But like you said, it's not a lot. So just people know listening, there are resources, but getting people who are abusers to use them is a big project and often takes a court order. Speaker 3 (41:15): And I've tried a couple of times to experiment myself to try to see if I can talk some sense into suspects in the short time I have with them. And their reasoning and logic are just so out there that it seems impossible for them to even understand. Speaker 1 (41:33): That's what Neil would call a forget about it. Speaker 2 (41:36): Yeah, you Speaker 1 (41:37): Were going to go their homeville. Speaker 2 (41:38): Exactly what I was going to say. Thank you, Megan for saying it. I had to learn that the hard way. Speaker 1 (41:44): Yeah, yeah. But you learned it. That's the important thing. So one last question then we'll go. I know there's a lot of trackers that can be put on cars and personal items and things these days. How does someone figure that out? How do you know? Check out your car, your items, find out if you're being tracked. Speaker 3 (42:03): I get that a lot. And it used to be like we would just call people crazy that in law enforcement is just kind of overwhelming. Someone says they're being tracked or like, oh, that person's crazy. Well, these days there is so many trackers and there's so many OBD sensor things that you can put in your car that there's programs out there. You can track the health of your car, but it's also is doing GPS or there's car companies, especially more expensive cars that have constant tracking that you can sign up for on their website or whatever. So it is very prevalent. People's phones be tracked. And then you have the hair tags. We see a lot people sew into backpacks or shoes or they place under seats Speaker 1 (42:43): Even I found some luggage with a tracker. I was thinking, boy, wouldn't it be nice to track your luggage on a flight when it gets lost? But the implications of that in violence are pretty big. Speaker 3 (42:56): Yeah, I think it's becoming more and more prevalent, especially in stalking cases, tracking stuff of their kids so they know exactly where the other person's going. And there's RFI detectors and there's a lot of stuff that you can get on, especially if you look up spy gadgets.com or I don't even know if that's an actual website, but you can Google spy gadgets or stuff to detect trackers and there's some inexpensive options that people can afford. I mean, really just kind of tearing apart your car. If you think there's being tracked in your car and looking under seats, they can make a little pelican magnetic boxes where they can put air tags in and place them in any type of metal under your car. So wheel wells or on the frame or whatever, checking that or just taking it to a mechanic and asking 'em. Or hopefully if you ask somebody in law enforcement, they'll actually do that for you. Speaker 1 (43:53): Okay, very good. So if listening to this and you're in one of these situations, just be aware of that. We aren't wanting people to be paranoid, but it is just easy and doable, more doable these days. So we want you to be safe. And so we'll put some links in the show notes about places you might be able to find something like this or more information. I'm sure there's lots out there. So we'll look it up and we'll put it in there. Nick, thank you. Thank you from the bottom of our hearts for being here today. You've been there, done that, and we're grateful there are people who are being helped listening to this and it will live on perpetuity. So thank you. Thank you for the service in law enforcement, first of all, and thank you for being here today. Speaker 2 (44:37): You're welcome, and thank you for having me. Speaker 1 (44:39): Oh, you bet. Speaker 2 (44:40): Thanks so much. Yeah, this is really great. I think this will help a lot of people. Speaker 1 (44:44): Absolutely. Next week we'll continue our five types series. Next week it'll be on narcissistic personality, high conflict personalities, and then we'll follow that up with what that looks like in relation to domestic violence. In the meantime, send your questions to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or submit them to high conflict institute.com/podcast. Until next time, keep learning and practicing skills, be kind to yourself and others while we all try to keep the conflict small and find the missing piece. Speaker 4 (45:26): It's All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins and Ziv Moran. Find the show notes and transcripts at True Story fm for high conflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.