Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / Seeds of Personality: Understanding Psychopathy's Origins and Impact (Part 2)
Transcript
- Speaker 1 (00:05): Welcome to, it's All Your Fault On True Story fm, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and deal with the most challenging human interactions, those involving someone with a high conflict personality or being involved in a high conflict situation. I'm Megan Hunter, and I'm here with my co-host, bill Eddie. Speaker 2 (00:26): Hi everybody. Speaker 1 (00:28): We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute in Scottsdale, Arizona, where we focus on training, consulting, coaching classes, and educational programs and methods, all to do with high conflict. Today we're going to continue our discussion about psychopathy. If you missed it in the first part, it's in last week's episode, which is number 6 0 2, so you might want to have a listen to that one as well today. Before we start, please send your questions to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or on our website@highconflictinstitute.com slash podcast, where you'll also find all the show notes and links. Okay, bill. So we were talking quite a bit last week about psychopathy, and we started by talking about this article. It was actually a podcast about Berkeley Voices in Berkeley, voices Psychopathy goes undetected in some people, and the question is why? And they'd identified that the cost of psychopathy to the US criminal justice system is upwards of 460 billion with a B every year. Speaker 1 (01:39): So this article goes on to talk a lot about what psychopathy is and isn't. So we're going to continue with that today. We finished up last week talking about traits and dimensions of personality, and now we're going to start today talking about whether someone can switch, can a flip be switched, and suddenly someone's a psychopath. So I guess we might see this when someone seems to have a big personality change and they were kind of a kind, helpful, regular person with just average everything, and then one day suddenly something really bad is found out, or they're just behaving really badly, have they instantly become a psychopath if they're lying and they didn't do that before? Speaker 2 (02:29): Yeah. The thing is about personalities. Personalities are patterns of behavior basically established as you're growing up. So it's not a switch as an adult that someone can just do or that their environment makes them have that personality. Now, someone might live in an environment, get caught up in a gang or something and engage in some antisocial behavior, but it doesn't mean they've developed an antisocial and they get removed from that environment. They might not have that antisocial behavior anymore. So basically, adults personalities are formed really by the time you're about 20, much of it by five or six. So a lot of who we are is already coming along. People will say, oh, I remember him when he was five, and he was just like what he is today. Speaker 1 (03:26): Now if at three they'd have been around that child, the child have been like that, Speaker 2 (03:32): Probably not. So a lot of this is by five or six where you've internalized a lot. Three-year-olds. Actually, an interesting side note three is the most violent age in the adult lifespan, and you've probably had experience with that Speaker 1 (03:52): Just a little bit. And my middle child has a soon to be 3-year-old. Speaker 2 (03:59): Yeah, so three year olds have the power and the energy and the drive without the inhibitions, but by five or six, you've pretty much got to learn some inhibitions if you're going to get along at school and society. And so that kind of learning by five or six, you've got a lot of your social who's more aggressive, who's more passive, who talks a lot, who doesn't talk much. Often that's going by five or six, but you can make a lot of changes then. And so personality developments a result basically of three things, your genetic tendencies, your early childhood, like by five or six, and the cultural environment you're in. So if you're in a drug dealing culture as you're growing up, that may affect your personality development. On the other hand, if your parents were in a drug dealing culture and you were adopted at birth by someone with very successful well todo environment, you might not develop those, but you might because the genetics might be so strong. So it really varies. Speaker 1 (05:16): There's a chance. Speaker 2 (05:17): Yeah. Yes. Speaker 1 (05:19): Just kidding. Yeah, I like to think of it as a recipe. We all have this recipe and a little bit of it's genetic genetics and who knows how much of it is, but so much of what we do as parents and as society in those first five years just it really starts, all the ingredients are there for that recipe. And I suppose there are some variables that happen beyond that trauma and other things like that. But I think those first five years, if you have some resilience, any traumas that happen perhaps after that will be easier to tolerate. Would that be fair? Speaker 2 (05:57): Yes, absolutely. Those first five years give you really a grounding in who you are. So there's people who, right, when they're like six years old, their parents get killed in a car crash and they're wonderful parents, and you have a good sense of yourself and sense of confidence, feel that you're loved, all that stuff. Now you're, I've had clients who were then raised by their grandparents or their aunts and uncles with that solid grounding. On the other hand, your parents get killed in a car crash at 18 months. That can really throw things way off. I once had a firefighter as a counseling client. He's great as a firefighter, but his marriage was just always in trouble, and that's when you learn how to be close. And at that age, his parents vanished. He went to his grandparents for a year, then they realized we really can't raise a 3-year-old. So then he went to his aunt and uncle and actually did well. But those early bonding for close relationships like a marriage, that part was messed up. And fortunately, counseling can make a difference with that. You kind of replay learning how to be close, how to be confident, and how to accept loss. Different things, Speaker 1 (07:22): Almost like a re-parenting. Is that a fair way to put it? Speaker 2 (07:25): Yes. And that's a lot of what therapy is, and that's what you can really help people. So they don't develop personality disorders even though they've had trauma, and a lot of people don't, but some people it's heavily genetic tendencies. And antisocial personality disorder is the most genetically related personality disorder. So that's where there's a higher incidence in first degree relative. So if you married somebody who becomes clear is antisocial, your kids may be a little more at risk and you really want to watch out for signs and really teach them social behavior. Speaker 1 (08:05): But Bill, how do we look for those signs? Now, you and I wrote the book Dating Radar. We'll put the link in the show notes because the antisocial psychopath comes with charm in the beginning, which I think that's borne out in the research, and it's not definitive. It's not always, but if they do, then how do you see this? How do you know? Am I hiring someone? Am I marrying someone who I just am not seeing all the traits yet of any of this? Because there's a lot of hiding, a lot of hiding the fraud and the line and masking and covering up. So people are often surprised to find out that their partner has another wife or another husband or another whatever, or hidden bank accounts or just all kinds of things and things that 90% of other people would never do. So what are the signs? Speaker 2 (09:01): Well, I think things being out of sync, and I'm talking in more general antisocial personality, which is about 4% psychopath is 1% antisocial on steroids. The more bold, the more risk taking, the more mean and callous and less inhibited, but antisocial in general, you have this disconnect where they'll say something but you feel like they're saying warm and tender things, and I'm getting this cold and dangerous feeling, Speaker 1 (09:36): Or there's just no feeling to it Speaker 2 (09:40): Or no feeling. I think I was in court once as a lawyer for someone and the other side had someone testifying and they I think were antisocial and the words did not match the energy that was coming from them. And that's often the thing. But what's interesting, and we found this in that doing the research for dating radar is how many people said, I did see signs, but I overlooked them because I thought time and love will make everything work out. So don't overlook warning signs. If you sense something's off, look into it. Because as you said, Megan, they're really good at covering up and charming people. Speaker 1 (10:33): I think we also have a bias, internal bias that this person is going to come with a danger sign. We're just going to be able to sense it. I would like to think I'm going to sense if I'm around someone who's going to harm me, whether it's emotionally or drain my bank account behind my back or something like that, I think we think we can sense that we're going to pick that up. We're smart enough and we we're able enough. But honestly, when it comes to love or when it comes to even just hiring, we just don't expect this. And I think that's part of what we do, bill, is all these years working in this area is realizing that we should all just have our eyes open all the time. Anytime you're with a new group of people, you're in a new relationship. There's just any new people in your life, that's the time to be cautious. Speaker 1 (11:32): And we don't want to be overly suspicious, but you have to analyze just like you're buying a house, like you're buying a car, it's probably going to be a used car or used house. So I'm not saying this is a used person, but they come with a lot of experience and a lot their life history and just like a house or a car or anything else you buy. So we really should be looking with such a keen eye. But there's so many other factors like our own loneliness, our own low self-esteem, and the miscalculation that we can change someone with our time and love. So we really do miss this, and it's just even twice this week, I've had two women who have been in horrible relationships, both in the three women actually this week, all in absolute tears, and they're such bright women. I'm in top of their fields and they're in tears saying, how did I do this? How did I get into this relationship? My life is just destroyed. Then they want to read dating radar for the next time, which is really good, but come on, everybody read Dating Radar. Speaker 2 (12:46): Well, it really is. People just don't have the healthy skepticism. That's the phrase I like to use, right? We don't want to make people really scared, but on the other hand, there are a little hints. There are warning signs that people can notice, especially if something seems out of sink. You may have a gut feeling, wait a minute, I think I'm being lied to. But he says, have I ever lied to you and I don't remember, Speaker 1 (13:15): And how dare you question me. I mean, really me? Speaker 2 (13:20): That's a warning sign. Speaker 1 (13:21): There you Speaker 2 (13:22): Go. If they're angry with you for questioning them, that's a warning sign because they should say, oh, wow, I didn't mean that. Or Here's what was really happening. But when you start getting people angry for having ordinary questions, then that may be a warning sign and think about it as behavior, not as a diagnosis. This is a pattern of behavior, of risk-taking, lying, not restraining themselves. Speaker 1 (13:54): I know you've talked about that. There's a historical function for these personalities and all personality disorders. They take risks that push society forward sometimes or backwards, but then society pushes back and the result appears to slow human progress. So let's look at the pushing forward. What do you mean by, and sometimes they push society forward. Speaker 2 (14:22): Well, and actually that article has an example with this. So if you picture thousands of years ago, hunter gatherers, humans seem to live mostly in communities, about 150 people. So you kind of go hunt your wooly mammoth or whatever and feed the community for a few weeks. But as he pointed out in the article is these personalities go against the community. So the community, oh, you can't do that. We have rules. Oh, I better not. The community has empathy. If you go out into the wilderness, I'll feel hurt. I'll feel abandoned. I'll feel like you don't care. So don't do that. Oh, okay, I won't do that. But these folks don't have the remorse. They don't have the inhibition. They have the bold risk taking. And so they go out beyond the community and they find a really lush valley of food and plants, and eventually we got into doing agriculture. Speaker 2 (15:26): So we went from being a hunter gatherer species to being an agricultural species in many ways, because some people took risks and went against the mainstream. And these are people like that. So that's why I think they push beyond. They're not held back by empathy. And we go, how can people not have empathy? But actually it's very functional. If a few people don't have empathy and they find some new ways of doing things that then we learn, Hey, this is good for all of us. I think that's how the antisocial person, a psychopath, willing to fight other people and succeed. And then we see their success and then we go, oh, yeah, this is better. Speaker 1 (16:15): So that's the positive side. And then when it comes to interacting and having relationships with someone like this, it means that you're probably going to have to set a lot of limits, have a lot of boundaries because they aren't going to restrain themselves maybe in other areas where it is a benefit for them and maybe their tribe that they can go out and break the status quo, take some big risk, and it benefits society as a whole. But then in other areas, what are those other areas where it doesn't necessarily benefit? Speaker 2 (16:49): Well, I think close relationships, close relationships require empathy. You do have to care about the other person or the other person not going to stick around. And so they have some very bumpy relationships where they alienate the other person or maybe even are violent. A lot of these folks are violent. Part of psychopathy is comfort with violence. And so if you're comfortable hitting people to get what you want, it's going to not go over well. If you have a spouse or partner who you feel like, Hey, I don't agree with you, so I'm going to hit you. So there's a degree of that. I think in domestic violence cases where you have people like this, it's just part of who they are. They're genetically predisposed to being a lack of empathy and an aggressive nature. And that boldness that was talked about. Speaker 1 (17:53): Can I tell you something here, bill, that just had this flashback to a long time ago, when I went to see a comedy show that was the comedian was a hypnotist, Speaker 1 (18:04): They put several, there were an equal number of men and women on the stage, and we were from a small community. So everyone, and you kind of know their personality, but there were a few people on stage who we didn't know, and at one point after they were all under hypnosis, the hypnotist had them switch roles. So the men thought that they were women and the women that they were men. It was just the best comedy show I've ever seen, and I've seen some other hypnotist one, but this one was phenomenal. Anyway, so the women, I can't remember what he had them doing, but he had the men pretend think that they were pregnant and they had to take care of themselves. And so there were some on the stage who were grabbing their bellies and they thought their belly, they had a nine month sized belly on 'em, and they would caress it, and they were so loving. Speaker 1 (18:55): And then there were others who were just very dismissive of the whole experience and didn't want anything to do with this belly and dah dah. Then they had to give birth, and you can imagine this is hysterical, and they're yelling and groaning, but the loving ones were, oh, they got that baby out and they were holding the baby, and they were, oh, started trying to breastfeed the babies and everything. And then there was the guy who when the baby came out, held it up by, it was all invisible, obviously, but by what would've been its hair and this mean gruff look on his face, and he just held it there. I'll never forget it. And I thought, man, that is who he is. If he's under hypnosis and that's what he's doing, that is who he is, and women run from the guy. There was no love toward that baby whatsoever. That was fascinating. Speaker 2 (19:58): I don't know how accurate people's behavior under hypnosis is, but it's a fascinating thought is that there are people who don't connect with their babies at all. Speaker 1 (20:15): But if I looked at the rest of it, because it's went on for two or three hours, not just the baby thing, but there are a lot of things, and that seemed to be kind of his way. Plus I worked at the county attorney's office and I knew who was in trouble and who wasn't, and kind of more often and the not, and if I kind of put it all together, it's like, yeah, I would not be surprised if this guy ended up in prison. And I agree. I mean, from a hypnosis comedian show, you probably aren't going to be able to diagnose or label anyone, but it certainly was interesting. Speaker 2 (20:51): Well, what's interesting to me about this isn't just that, but also you had other information, and that's when we see patterns, I think it's important not to jump to conclusions from one single factor, but when you see a pattern that looks like this is part of this person's personality, that's when you need to maybe be more arm's length and use your strategies and consciously use empathy, attention and respect to keep things calm. And that's the benefit of, I think everything we talk about in this podcast is helping people see patterns they might not have seen before and adapt what they do so they can be more effective as well as more self-protective. So it's really about the patterns, and that's what these folks have a pattern, so you always have to look at several things to see what's really going on, Speaker 1 (21:51): Not just the one comedy show. That's Speaker 2 (21:53): Right. Yeah. No single comedy show should form a diagnosis. Speaker 1 (21:58): It was just a clue. A clue. Speaker 2 (22:01): Yeah, no, and I think those are things that people miss and hopefully listening to this, they'll go, oh, I am starting to see this pattern here. There's this and this and this. Speaker 1 (22:13): Right, okay. Let's say someone is kind of seeing this and they've felt confused. I know with antisocial, that's one of my biggest tells is when I feel confusion, maybe I need to help them, or maybe I need to believe them, but things aren't quite lining up and the dots aren't connecting and their words aren't matching their actions, and then my helper personality wants to come out and really help. It's just I get confused. So that's really a key. So now you kind of thought, oh, I wonder if this is what I'm involved with. This seems really spot on. What then should a person do? Let's say they're in a romantic relationship, maybe married, maybe not, doesn't matter, number one, I think we all know by this point, if you've been listening to our podcast for length of time that you don't go tell someone that they're a psychopath or high conflict or have a personality disorder. It really won't go well for anyone. But let's say, bill, that you did say to your partner, look, I was listening to this podcast and I discovered that, I hesitate to tell you this, but I think it could really help you to learn that you have antisocial personality disorder and one step beyond that. You might be a psychopath, but I'm sure there's help for you. Speaker 2 (23:29): Yeah, that's a conversation not to have. Speaker 1 (23:32): Don't have that conversation ever. Speaker 2 (23:35): You have that conversation with a therapist or a lawyer and figure Speaker 1 (23:41): Or in your figure own Speaker 2 (23:42): Head or in your own head. But if that is who you're dealing with, you need to develop a strategy to protect yourself and to see if you are going to want to move out of that relationship. You need to do it very, very carefully, because especially the violent part when you separate from folks like this is when you're most at risk. They're happy when you're under their thumb and you're agreeing and doing everything they want you to do. They're not happy when you're challenging them or if you say, I'm going to leave you. There's people that have been killed on their way out the door after saying, I'm going to leave you because they can't stand that. They want the power and control over someone, Speaker 1 (24:31): The dominance. Speaker 2 (24:32): You talk to somebody else first and develop a strategy and talk about the patterns you're seeing. Now. There's a whole continuum here. There's a whole range. And so you can't assume your partner has some things we talked about today that may or may not mean they have a personality disorder, may or may not mean they're antisocial. All of this stuff are human traits. It's just that they have an overdose of one area or another, and that's when it becomes a personality disorder. One area that's really stuck and dysfunctional isn't working. Speaker 1 (25:13): So now you are getting an idea that the person you're with or someone in your life may have this pattern. What's the likelihood of successful treatment? Number one, can you get someone into treatment? Any kind of therapy for this? Speaker 2 (25:31): Well, let me just say in general, people with personality disorders can't see their part in the problem. And so generally they don't seek treatment. Now, some people say with borderline personality disorder, they read about it on the internet. They go, oh, I'm kind of like that. And they may look into some treatment. Borderline is actually one of the more treatable personality disorders. This is maybe the least treatable, especially if it's genetically based. This is how this person is wired, Speaker 1 (26:04): And especially if they're not a teenager or younger, Speaker 2 (26:09): Right? Once, if they're an adult, then to my knowledge, we don't have a good therapy for them. Now, a footnote with this, a cautionary note is some people say recognition therapy has had some success with people with antisocial personality disorder, and it's a kind of therapy that teaches them step by step, pro-social behavior and how to manage their anti-social instincts. So I don't want to say there's absolutely no treatment, but there's not much because it's so hardwired for so many people Speaker 1 (26:48): And they're not going to go to it voluntarily. More than likely they're, it's something that's court ordered or maybe under incarceration, something like where they're forced to take it or if they'll take it to make themselves look good. Yeah, I mean, that's maybe more along the narcissistic, but Speaker 2 (27:08): It's a lot of work to just do to look good. So it's usually ordered. So for example, domestic violence treatment. In that series that we did for High Conflict Institute where we interviewed 16 experts, one of them does treatment for domestic violence, David Wexler, and he said, about 70% make progress over the course of a year and are less likely to be violent and more likely to have some empathy for their spouse. And they said, what's up with the other 30%? And he says, they tend to be the psychopaths and they're not going to learn, and they're not going to change because they're so hardwired. That seems to be one of the traits of psychopaths is they're so hardwired that you don't have the ability to impact them, and you need to protect society from the more extreme ones. Speaker 1 (28:05): So that 30%, there's domestic violence. I mean, there's just no way to have a good relationship. Speaker 2 (28:12): The idea of living in a violent relationship. Very few people want that. And it's my experience while being a divorce attorney, a divorce mediator has been, I'm involved with people when they want to get out. And so sadly, some people really feel trapped, like he would kill me if I left, so I'm not going to leave. But this isn't a happy relationship, and these aren't happy people. That's another thing is they really accept when they're dominating others for a moment. It's maybe like a cocaine high. They get from dominance from time to time, but most of the time they're on edge, irritable, unsatisfied, unhappy, and the people around them are on edge, irritable and unsatisfied and unhappy. Speaker 1 (29:05): I think you'd really lose yourself in a relationship with someone like this and just be constantly on edge in that. So this is really fascinating and thank you Netflix for giving us lots of opportunity to learn about it. And if there's 460 billion spent by the US Justice system on the care and treatment, I guess, of psychopathy, it looks like there's a lot of work that needs to be done in parenting those kids from one to five and beyond. I mean, definitely and beyond, because you're creating a future menace to society or contribution to society. Right? Speaker 2 (29:52): Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And that's the thing. It's 10 or 12. This stuff is showing up for most and do something. Look into it. Get them help. Speaker 1 (30:01): Get them help. Exactly. If you're involved with someone that you suspect may have this or you're in an abusive relationship, do like Bill says, and talk to a therapist. Talk to a lawyer, even talk to law enforcement or talk to a few people, right? Because can get help. Yeah, get help. Get help. And maybe for more than one source, because sometimes, as in one case this week, the person went to their workplace and said, I'm not safe at home. I'm being abused physically and work just said, get a restraining order. And then just nothing else, just no other support. And in fact, ended up kind of punishing this person in a way for that. So it's pretty tough. So be careful, be cautious, be wise. Get resources, talk to people, and thank you for listening today. I hope you found this helpful. Speaker 1 (31:00): Next week we're going to answer a few listener questions. You guys have been sending 'em in like crazy. Thank you very much. We're going to talk about exactly what I just mentioned, what to do if you're an employer or in any type of organization and you have someone who comes to you that either needs help in a high conflict situation dealing with a high conflict individual, or you have a high conflict individual that might be harming those around them in some way. So we're going to discuss that next week. Until then, send your questions to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or submit them to high conflict institute.com/podcast. And I did want to say that this week, bill, you went somewhere really cool. Speaker 2 (31:46): Well, I went to Hawaii and had a wonderful time. I got to speak there for a day and a half, and then take the other rest of the week as a vacation. So very wonderful time. Love the people there. Love the people there. Speaker 1 (32:00): Yeah, that's great. While he was gone, I went on a cruise in the Caribbean, or was it Caribbean? I never know which way to sit. Had a wonderful time, met some great people. We are very grateful for all of you listeners. Until next time, keep learning and practicing the skills. Be kind to yourself and others while we all learn to keep the conflict small and find the missing piece. It's All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins and Ziv Moran. Find the show notes and transcripts at True Story fm or high conflict.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.