Latest / Leaders In Payments / Embedded Finance Special Series: Owning the Payments Experience with John Badovinac, Flute | Episode 522

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Embedded Finance Special Series: Owning the Payments Experience with John Badovinac, Flute | Episode 522 · Leaders In Payments

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Leaders in Payments Podcast.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Greg Myers.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: And as many of you know, embedded finance has quickly become one of the most important conversations in payments in FinTech.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: More vertical software companies are looking beyond their core platforms and exploring how payments and other financial products can create new revenue, strengthen customer relationships, and deliver a more seamless experience.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: It is also the focus of Embedify, the Embedded Finance Summit.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm hosting on October 13th in Lehigh, Utah, where Vertical SaaS leaders, technology providers, and industry experts will come together to discuss how embedded finance is being built and deployed in the real world.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: We'll be talking not only about payments, but also lending, banking, insurance, accounting, and payroll.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: You can learn more at Embedify2026.com.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: As we lead up to the event, I'm talking with industry leaders who are helping software companies navigate the embedded finance opportunity.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Leaders in Payments Podcast.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Greg Myers.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: And as many of you already know, embedded finance has quickly become one of the most important conversations in payments in FinTech.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: More vertical software companies are looking beyond their core platforms and exploring how payments and other financial products can create new revenue, strengthen customer relationships, and deliver a more seamless experience.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's also the focus of Embedify, the Embedded Finance Summit I'm hosting on October 13th in Lehigh, Utah.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: Vertical SaaS leaders, financial technology providers, and industry experts will come together to discuss how these capabilities are being built and deployed in the real world.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: We'll also be talking about not only payments, but lending, banking, insurance, accounting, and payroll.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: As we lead up to that event, I'm launching this new Leaders in Payments podcast series to explore the embedded finance opportunity.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: You can learn more about the event and register at Embedify2026.com.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: My guest today is John Batovinick, the SVP of Embedded Commerce at Flute.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: So John, welcome to the show.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, Greg.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks very much for being here.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm also looking forward to joining you in Utah.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, can't wait.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: Really looking forward to it.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's coming up quick, so we got to get ready.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, John, you've been in payments 25 years across payments, integrated commerce, software partnerships.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: So before we get into the conversation about embedded finance, can you give us a little background on your career and how you found your way into this part of the payments industry?
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, a great question.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: And thanks again for letting me be here.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: So about 25 plus years experience in a variety of different aspects of payments.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: I started operations at Discover and then ran both uh issuing and acquiring side roles, uh, product operations, sales, sales leadership.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: The one thing that's been consistent throughout that journey is my curiosity with the end last foot to the point of sale.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so every one of these journeys after Discover has taken me closer to the customer and closer to the code.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I've just followed my curiosity.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: Ended up here after making numerous mistakes along the way and doing hundreds of integrations.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: You kind of over time get a sense to know what good looks like.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: So at Flute, I get the chance to work with embedded software companies and help them deploy not just payments, but a growing list of embedded finance services available from Flute.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Flute recently emerged from Aurora Payments with a new brand, a broader payment platform.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: So for anyone that's not familiar with Flute, can you give us an overview of what the company does and kind of where it fits into the payments ecosystem?
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: Flute really has been designed to deliver enterprise grade products to the SaaS solution architects and their customers that really serve as the SMB backbone of the country's economy, right?
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: So we're delivering enterprise grade products in a natural, authentic way inside the software that customers already know, use, and trust.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: When you hear the term embedded finance today, what does it mean to you?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: And specifically from the perspective of the vertical SaaS companies?
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a great question.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think for me, embedded finance is really just the next evolution of a set of questions that are being asked by those really smart software developers.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: And my favorite bit of the origin story when I find out a little bit more about how a SaaS partner got started, is many of them grew up in the specific vertical that they serve.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: And what they did was they started asking questions about that business, not just their payments-related needs, but the overall needs in that business.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: And the better those questions were, inevitably, the better the product that they developed to meet those needs more comprehensively.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: So we've embedded payments.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: And the next evolution to me is embedded finance, right?
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that means that once we have the workflow of payments, we understand kind of the workflows and the typical spins and transaction volumes.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: We're uniquely well equipped to identify additional financial services products like working capital and to embed them in a way that's authentic within the context of the software that they're already using every day.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's really what I'm excited about when we deliver here at Fluid.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, payments, as you well know, has been historically viewed by most software companies as an integration or a feature, but I think that's advancing, right?
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: So why do you think more vertical SaaS companies are really starting to view payments now as a real actual line of business?
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I think primarily it's because they want to own more of the experiences that are important to them.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so when they think more deeply about how they differentiate and the solution that they provide for that user of their software, they really gotta get into the weeds about that experience and own more of it to differentiate from their competitors.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so we help them really think through from a very consultative approach, not just connecting features and executing an integration, but we think deeply about how we help them build a payment business.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: And that starts with a consultancy that models kind of the different pricing models, help them achieve a pricing policy in some go-to-markets that then naturally cascade into their onboarding system.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do we build an authentic in-app enrollment experience that actually makes it really easy for their customers to participate and to say yes?
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then further, when do we interject those payment products at the right place within their user journey, right?
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: Each of those stories is different based on the verticals.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: Each of them have different needs from scheduling to in-app payments to invoicing or text-to-pay or pay with uh contactless or Apple Pay, SDK.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: So we help them stitch that together and really instead of just doing payments features, we actually help them build and understand how to build a payment business.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: So you talked about this a little bit, I think, there, but want to double-click on it a little bit because you talk a bit a lot about helping software companies build and monetize their payments business, not simply like connecting to a processor.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: What's the distinction between maybe the models a little bit?
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, to me, I think really success to me looks like when you planned your business, you understand the drivers of profitability deeply.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: You understand then how to achieve a pricing policy that may or may not be aligned to the level of SaaS engagement that you want to drive.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: So you can perhaps bundle pricing based on the SaaS service that was selected, and then really understanding how to price that.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, do you want to include an option, for example, for dual pricing?
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: Or do you want to use a dual flat rate pricing plan or to service both and give that customer the choice?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: So those are the diagnostics that we put the customer through to really understand kind of what the profitability levels are and levers are, how they model them, and then whether or not they're on track, whether actual to expect it, and then what we can do to make sure that we give them the tools and the insights from reporting and other dashboard-related items so that they could monitor their performance versus expected and tweak it as they go forward.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then finally, really understanding what key drivers are to adoption.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like what are the three things that have to happen within their software to really get payments traction?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then what can we do through chat or other tools, or how can we collaborate with that partner to make those key items easily understandable, accessible, and usable so that they get the payments traction that really determines the success of a program or not?
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I've read stats that say 75-80% of vertical SaaS companies have integrated payments in some way, shape, or form.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: May not be totally integrated, could still be referral models, but whatever it is, when you sit down with these vertical SaaS companies, what tells you whether they are truly ready to own more of that payments experience?
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: The key thing that I look for when I talk to a software provider for the first time is what's their take?
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like what's their unique right to win?
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: What's the insight that delivers the value that they're solving in the problem set that they've identified?
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the most important thing.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's that frontline hands-on experience that drives the insights that really allows them to produce a differentiated offering.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: So do they have that?
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: Do they have that take on the markets that they serve and the verticals that they focus on?
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then second, you know, do they have a sales playbook that really works, right?
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: Do they have a sales motion that's been established that's can be useful beyond the heroic founders, right?
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: That have this force of personality that can drive sales.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, can mere mortals succeed with that playbook?
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then secondly, you know, is your operations playbook also up to snuff?
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: Do you support the process well?
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then I ask a little bit more about your CRM.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when you have those three things, a repeatable playbook that human can, sales playbook that uh humans can succeed with, tight CRM, and then a nice support structure, then we can pair that with that unique value proposition and really start to dig in.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: So those three things are almost prerequisites to knowing that they're ready to scale.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: So there's several different models that a software company can use.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's the simple referral model, there's more integrated all the way to the pay fac model, which you don't hear the term pay fac as much as you used to, but it's still, you know, valuable for the right people.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: So, in your opinion, how should a SaaS company think through which model is really right for them?
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great question.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I would do is start with the experience they want to deliver for their customer first, full stop.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: What is it that's most important to their experience and their points of differentiation?
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then own that piece and potentially think about partner or outsourcing the rest.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: So if they need to be set up in a hurry in a seamless way, then onboarding in a frictionless way with a minimum amount of questions is the most important facet of that.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: If they want a more personalized journey that's not as time sensitive, then they can onboard at a bit more leisurely pace if things like advanced scheduling for veterinary software becomes more important.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: So you want ease of scheduling, you want mobile access, you want the ability to store a payment credential or maybe execute a payment plan.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: All of those points of differentiation for that software company are gonna drive what bits of that process they need to fully own and optimize versus those that can be outsourced to somebody else.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you mentioned something about this next question, which I think is incredibly important and I know it's gonna come up a lot in Utah in a couple of weeks.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's around adoption.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: So a software company can build this great payments product, but that doesn't necessarily mean that their customers are gonna use it, right?
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: So, what are companies that are achieving strong payment adoption, what are they doing differently?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think the best answer to that question is to make it natural and genuine within the workflow.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: Just to completely subsume it within that workflow.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the SaaS developer is designed to simplify that business owner's workflow.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so if we can make that simple, I'll give you an example.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: I've seen some great ideas where at the end of the day, a practitioner can look at their schedule of completed appointments and then send billing directly out from that.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a nice way to align, you know, a functional with a collections-related or payments-related opportunity.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: So using the calendars to send out either text reminders or text-to-pay links so that the consumers or customers or patients can pay at a time that's most convenient for them.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: Do it with a stored payment credential, maybe over their mobile device, you know, as they're dropping a kid off at practice or something like that.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's working it into the best, most contextually appropriate setting and making it easy for that customer to use.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think, you know, augmenting that with maybe some AI assistance, some tools or chat protocols to really be there at the tip of need so that they could provide best guidance and so that the customers feel comfortable and confident using those specific points that need to derive that traction.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, how much of what you do is like consulting these SaaS companies?
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because it just sounds like they're probably not, in a lot of cases, payments experts.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot of things that you've talked about just in the last 15 minutes that are really about payments and doing payments well.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it seems like you probably spend a lot of time kind of on the consulting and advising side.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a natural byproduct of just making mistakes and assuming that these brilliant software developers and actually brilliant business people really are well versed in payments.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it's very rare that you find people that do both really, really exceptionally well.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: And really, it's not necessary, right?
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think that the most valuable thing that they can bring as a SaaS developer serving a specific vertical are those meaningful insights that drive differentiation.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: So get the insights, get hands-on, understand what the key features are going to be most useful, and then we'll take care of the payments education.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: So we do a lot of modeling.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, instead of abandoning folks to, you know, sort their way through how to price, we've built a specific construct to help them do that.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: We facilitate with every customer a dialogue that models the estimated go-to-market pricing with a couple of different options, whether that's flat rate, dual pricing, dual flat rate, interchange plus or whatever.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: We take them through that context, do a bunch of modeling for them, and then show them the delta between each of those models.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: From that, we extract a pricing policy that they can make as default within their on inline application or onboarding workflow.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then we can tweak that as we go.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: But that becomes part of their, I would say, native application workflow.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: The output of that exercise is useful to them as well.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: So the other thing that we do is occasionally they're going to run into larger than expected opportunities, which we all welcome.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's good for everybody, and we'll have to be able to provide some on-the-fly as needed custom consulting, and we're happy to do that and build tools and provide them training so that when they're ready, they can do that themselves as well.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I say that the last thing is really important is we specifically designed a role as a player coach for every one of these partners so that we can build the products for them, coach them on their use, execute those sales processes for them, and then when they're ready, sit back and coach a little bit.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll lead, we'll show them how to do it, and then we'll step back and provide that single point of contact to help coach them through the success.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think they can tell a far better story when they own more of that process internally so that they don't introduce points of failures or breaks in the momentum.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it's also more authentic when they own the process more fully.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: So before we kind of leave the payments story a little bit and talk about the kind of the broader opportunities, you mentioned something that I rarely have a podcast about now where we don't talk about, and I and I think it's an important one, and it's definitely a conversation we'll have at the event, is around AI.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: They're multifaceted when it comes to vertical SaaS, right?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because you've got, you know, this message out there in the market that, you know, a one-man operation is going to build this replacement for every vertical SaaS company and they can do it, you know, on the weekend to become a billion-dollar business and all this other stuff.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: But AI also can help companies operate more efficiently from the coding developer perspective.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: So just curious, kind of what are your thoughts about AI specifically related to payments in vertical SaaS?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, first, I'm super glad that you asked because it's something we've deeply invested in.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's one of the core tenets of what makes Flute awesome.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we have developed some great AI integration tools because what that does is it lowers the barrier to working with Flute, right?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: If we can give convert your cost of integration and reduce it by 5x because now we're doing it in two days as opposed to six weeks, it's a big deal.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: And we do have customers that are taking our AI dev tools, dropping them into their own dev agents, and really, really accelerating that.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: We've even borne that out by having some of our internal sales engineers build their own applications and go through that same process.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: So that muscle memory of using these AI tools is rapidly accelerating their ability to work with Flu, but it's also helping us learn to how to better coach them in using those tools.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: So now we're actually creating flavors of those development tools specifically based on the custom use cases and give them custom agents and custom tools to go even faster and focus only on those experiences that they specifically want to deliver.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: So that's great for the partners to be able to work with us more quickly, particularly if we've been able to say to them, hey, this is the model, this is the profitability, this is how we can help you.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: And these are some of those key things that you need to have command over before you're ready to move forward.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: But when you are, you're not going to wait on us because of these AI dev agents.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I would say there's one more aspect to AI that I think is the next generation of kind of the natural evolution.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned earlier we've started with embedded payments.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: There's this, you know, adjacency to embedded finance, whether that's working capital or instant payouts.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think the next thing is going to be embedded intelligence.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: And what I mean by that is the application of AI to introduce those adjacent embedded financial services products at an inflection point that's real.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: And without all the jargon, let me just say that at a time that matters to that customer and it's contextually appropriate.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: AI is perfect for that, is seeing this macro level, identifying an opportunity, and serving up the right tool at the right time for the right customer.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: That also, if you think about the experience that a software company can deliver, it's important that that becomes more natural and more flowing.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think AI is perfectly positioned to work with the smart developers and introduce the right products to the right audience at the right time.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a great segue into the next question because we've been talking about payments.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: But to your point, there are bigger opportunities or as big opportunities for other financial products.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of people talk about lending comes next, right?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: Working capital, lending, banking products.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: But kind of in your opinion, what's kind of the follow-on to payments if it's not lending?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, what about the other products in your view?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: There's accounting, there's payroll, there's other financial products.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: So just curious your thoughts on beyond payments.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think, Greg, that the opportunity exists is start with the core payments.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: Use that data to create and service opportunities that are easy to access, working capital, instant payouts are just super close and natural based on the data that you already have access to from the payments.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: But then what comes naturally is based on the customer needs.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that the key to success is to do this with a genuine view of what the customer needs as a natural evolution.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: So let's just say we've got this now deeply embedded payment workflow that's native within their UI, that they never have to leave their SaaS product to take advantage of both embedded payments, scheduling, all of those things, but also working capital and instant payouts.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: Now they receive an instant payout or those working capital, what do they do with it?
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: To me, the next frontier is issuing, right?
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: Can we give them spin control, right?
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: So when they take that deposit, can they accelerate the funds because they get it deployed on a card?
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, is that card going to be an issued card?
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: Do we want to have MCC spin protection on it or caps or something like that?
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: So there's thoughtful applications of technology and rules-based governance on those spin-controlled issue cards that are something that I've had a bit of experience with in the past, would be a natural evolution there.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then also all of these activities that take place do need to be ultimately recognized within the accounting software system that's used by that company.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, what are those touch points where we can further take a single screen and track all of those items throughout that journey?
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that, you know, Flute's gonna be over time positioned to really guide and coach and to mentor, as well as learn from, you know, these smart executives and entrepreneurs that are building the new frontier here.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that's just a continuum based on that customer journey, that we're gonna be well positioned to meet them and uh collaborate with them as we build out together.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you've been working in and around software companies and ISVs for a long time.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: What are some of the biggest mistakes you still see companies making when they're approaching embedded payments?
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think a couple that jumped to mind are assuming they're payment experts and they can do a statement analysis, right?
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: So we have to, as I mentioned, do that consultancy up front, help them do the pricing policy.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: But I've killed deals in the past and I still kick myself over them.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: I can see the companies that I tried to inflict on this path of doing their own analysis and it just didn't work out.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so now we've built a whole construct that is that consultancy that we do up front just to make sure that we're comfortable and all aligned on the profitability levers, and that we give them a player coach to guide them through that process and give them as much autonomy as they're ready for when they're ready for it.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: The second thing is to think that the integration completes the journey.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a starting point.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so I think that the most important thing is do you have a natural adoption?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: And are you getting traction with those three types of payment interfaces that you've embedded within your native SaaS UI?
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're not, then there's something that you've got to do to either tweak the experience, provide Additional, you know, I would say security, comfort, as well as confidence.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: So there's some education that probably needs to happen.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: The ultimate measure of success for me is the traction that we get naturally and authentically without a lot of effort from that consumer.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, let's talk about Flute a little bit.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: So when a vertical SaaS company is evaluating embedded payments solutions partners out there, what is it about Flute's approach or your capabilities or your business model that you feel like truly makes you different and unique?
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great question.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: And thanks for asking it.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: First and foremost, we can get them live in days.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the agentic dev is just, it just kicks ass.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: There's no other way about it.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's just really great for them.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: So it allows them to examine a relationship with Flute, whether it was only to get access to our embedded finance tools.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: It lowers the barrier and the risk to entry because we can do it so inexpensively and so quickly.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then the other thing is the consultancy that we provide.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: We really do go deep in terms of understanding, you know, what their drivers are, how we can help them model their profitability and build a pricing policy for them that makes sense, and then deeply embed that UI using an onboarding API within their UI so that they can have an entire onboarding experience done uniquely within their UI and even give them back real-time web hooks with uh enrollment data so they can tell their customer when they've been set up, when their API credentials have been established, when their terminal has been lit up, and we can even tell them when their terminal is about to run out of paper.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so these are things that can actually create with the right developer and the right collaboration, real wow moments in terms of, hey, thank you for applying.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: We uh, you know, pop the confetti when they've been successfully configured, all within their in app messaging.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then we, for the right pet store, the software can bark at them when their paper's out.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, these are things that we are invested in.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: And we um have a deep, deep engineering base that's all entirely our own, so that our capability to grow and to build additional functionality based on the real life frontline demands and insights that our partners have in order to serve their customers better, we're uniquely well equipped to actually collaborate and build those and accelerate our momentum with the partners that we embark with together.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, one final question, John, before we wrap up the show.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: So as we look ahead to Embedify 2026 on October 13th, what's the one thing that you want vertical SaaS leaders to understand about building a payments business inside their software?
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think the most important thing to understand is that partners that focus on their long-term success and really understanding those payment levers are gonna be more valuable to them over time.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: And that when they select the right partner with the right technology that's really got a partnership focus that operates with a sense of urgency, they're gonna feel it.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: They're gonna know from the first conversation that they found the right partner.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, when I say sense of urgency, really what that translates to is giving a shit about the business that they're partnering with.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: And we do, right?
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's important is that we can really help them build a long-term business, not just get print payments certified or integrated.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, John, I think that's a great way to wrap up the show.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: I know your time is very valuable, so I don't want to take more of it today, but thank you so much for being on the show.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: I look forward to seeing you in October.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: And again, thank you for being on today.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Greg.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's great.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: Looking forward to uh seeing you out in Utah and maybe getting a quick mountain bike ride in.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: That would be awesome.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, for you guys listening to learn more about Embedify and to register to attend the event, please visit Embedify2026.com.