Latest / ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence / The Secret Behind Mayora's Success | Ricky Afrianto | Ep 011

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The Secret Behind Mayora's Success | Ricky Afrianto | Ep 011 · ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think number one when we when I say about intuition is not about guessing.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_02: So intuitions normally comes when you have uh solid data behind it.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: So that you get a good gut feeling or intuitions to that things.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: So example, e-commerce.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_02: So by intuitions, we feel that it is quite hard for FMCG brand, to be honest.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: Because the by the category itself, it is very impulse.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: So it is very hard for the consumer to buy one dollar pickets of product like chocolate or candy via e-commerce, while at the same time they need to pay one dollar for the delivery cost as well.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: So I think uh so many people I think obsess or maybe put the wrong investment behind the e-commerce just because everybody goes e-commerce.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: But a certain category doesn't work that way, so that our intuitions get validated by our data and things like that.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: And we have a few that for CPG e-commerce may be not that easy.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: That's why in most of the ASEAN market, I would say the contribution of e-commerce is less than 5%.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: This episode of the Super CMO show was made possible by the great folks at Moving Walls.
• 1:23
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• 1:37
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• 1:54
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• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: For more information, log on to www.movingwalls.com.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: Hi Ricky.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks a lot for uh joining the Super CMO podcast.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: Lovely having you as a guest, and thanks for taking time in the midst of your uh busy schedule and talking to us.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Swami, for the opportunity.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks a lot.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Ricky, I just want the audience to uh know about the kind of work that Mayora does across 100 countries, and it's it's phenomenal the role that you play.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, can you talk to us about uh the brands, uh the the range of countries and geographies that you operate?
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that's really uh a big, big uh you know, portfolio that you carry.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, can you talk to us a little bit about where did this all begin and how did your interest in marketing just get kindled?
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, thank you for the questions.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Mayora basically started in 1938, something like that.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: So the portfolio uh from mostly food and beverage, but recently we also launched uh detergents, home care category.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: So the product uh ranging from biscuit, wafer, chocolate, candy, instant food, cereal, coffee, beverages, tea, coffee, and finally the detergent.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a quite wide range of the product.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: What makes Mayora unique?
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think, as you said, we are fallible in 100 countries.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: But what makes us quite unique is the business between domestic in Indonesia and also outside Indonesia is almost 50-50.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so I think we are in a good position in that way.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: And the other one, I think we are quite happy because we are growing quite well for the last, I think, 20 years.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: So we hope to keep to continue uh the growth as usual.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: And we are fallibles.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we started in Indonesia and we expand to the ASEAN market, Southeast Asia.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: Now we have presence in India, China, Middle East, US, and Africa itself.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so uh from your career point of view, uh, you know, uh, how did you get into marketing and where was this interest in marketing, CPG marketing?
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, it's a very uh exciting question, I guess.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: So my background was initially in finance.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: Because you know, in 1998, when I graduated, finance is top of the class.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think everybody wants to be the finance for sure.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: But when I graduated in 1998, ASEAN at the time was in uh not good conditions.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: So lucky enough, I still get a chance to work for a paper company, Asian and paper.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: Then I noticed basically, whenever they need money, whenever there is a problem, whenever there is a customer issue whatsoever, everybody go back to marketing.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: So then I realized why the center become marketing than the others.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: So that's I think start to you know curiosity about marketing and things like that.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: I take a couple of the course, uh understand what is marketing really.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: Then, lucky enough, I joined uh Fontera, a dairy company from New Zealand.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_02: I think uh the pure FMCG CPG type of category introduced to me.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: So then, which is I think it's quite exciting.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's uh not only applauding the memory, but actually you need to have a strong analytical skill, yet creativity.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: Then I feel that this is never boring.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: So then starting from there, I think you expanse, you learn, you move.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: I move also to a couple of the new industries, then finally landed in Mayora.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_02: But what makes me exciting is when you created the communications, long time back just TV, but now in multiple platforms, it's so exciting, right?
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: With things that consumer easily to remember, but in fact, it is not easy to penetrate the consumer mind.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: So that is, I think, the mystery out of it makes me uh what you call it excited when we talk about marketing particularly.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: Brilliant, brilliant.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: You talk about the consumer's mind, uh, which is very interesting.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, given that you are a homegrown Indonesian brand, uh, there is this whole uh you know advent of the American brands and the power of the American brands and the global brands that are present in so many countries.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so how do you see an MNC brand vis-a-vis a homegrown uh you know, I would say a local brand going global?
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, how are the challenges different?
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: And can you tell me what makes you I would say vulnerable?
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: What makes you powerful?
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: Good questions.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_02: I think this is always exciting when you see local homegrown versus multinational.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think one thing for sure, multinationals get a lot of experience, I think, before the local homegrown.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I think we get a lot of respect for MNC.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: But the good things, uh, before I joined Mayora, I worked for a couple of multinationals companies, which I think I learned a lot.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: I might I must say.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: But something that I notice, uh, which is local homegrown now, maybe I think the growth is slightly even higher than multinationals.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe because of the speed of innovations, the speed of decision making, I think the speed and the understanding about the market is maybe slightly better because of you know the connection and things like that.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: But what is vulnerable, of course, I think when you are competing with multinational companies, you can talk about the communication, you can talk about the products.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's I think everyone facing that.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: But what is vulnerable for local homegrown is sometimes the experience, the wisdoms that multinational has, that you need to think about it also so that when you come up with your strategy, you are not left behind.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think with the multiple countries, their experience in multiple uh categories, of course, I think.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you're not nothing can beat experience in an easy way.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: So you really need to think uh deep.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yes, fantastic.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh having you know done you know a couple of decades in CPG marketing, uh, how are you seeing the world of CPG marketing transform uh vis-a-vis say 10 years back to what it is today?
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, how was it uh you know transforming?
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: What is the change that you are seeing?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: Number one, I think uh used to be, you know, we only talk about uh outlets.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: When we say outlet is modern rate, traditional outlet, wholesaler, agents, but now e-commerce, quick commerce, social commerce.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I think the channel itself is grown a lot, so which not exists 10 years back.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: That from commercial side.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: From the media side, I think we all know.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: Used to be maybe YouTube very small, almost not exist.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: Now even TikTok and other channels comes out.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: So that's what I see really a big difference.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: The media is, I think, proliferate a lot, and the commercial side of it also grown a lot.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: So that is what I observe.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so when you're a uh say a local brand uh with a very, very powerful uh you know brand proposition like yours, uh, do you believe uh you know customers uh understand the localization and the customization that you do uh as a powerful reason for uh you know buying brands?
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh is that something that you are able to innovate fast?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: So can you give me some examples of some innovations that probably drives your growth?
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh, which is very, very different from the standard global templates that say large multinational brands have.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that's is that not the challenge that uh they face?
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think uh when it comes to uh growth, of course, I think we need to have the right products, the right communications, insightful campaigns, which is I think everybody the same, be it local or multinationals.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: What probably slightly different compared to multinational is the ability to come up with the innovations.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe because of the multinational have a sort of a very robust procedure, so the positives sometimes create a negative as well, so which is a longer time.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: Second, the entrepreneurial skill, I think, is slightly different.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_02: In my view, maybe not always right, but in MNC, decision making is very thorough.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_02: At the same time, many leaders worry in making a mistake.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: A local homegrown is slightly different.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: They are taking risks, they create a new segment, they create, they launch something that not exists before.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: So, like most of our product is the first in the market.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: So that's I think what's I observe slightly different in that sense.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: At the same time, when it comes to personalization, customization, uh, maybe personalization, I think for CPG is a bit tough, I guess.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: But maybe customization or mass customization is a lot better, I think, like ID or My ID does.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: But for us, I think the flexibility to adjust the product to a certain market can be a benefit for local company, which for MNC it is possible, but because of the efficiency, the scale, it can be a barrier sometimes.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: So give me some examples of some innovations that you have unveiled in the market.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: And do these innovations uh go by specific geographies, or does it have a larger template on saying, okay, here is an innovation, but we'll take it to every market.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do you operate uh you know, category to market?
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, how how do you differentiate that?
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: This is exciting.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, there is no certain formula that which one that we see first.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: It really depends on the situations, to be honest.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's why I think uh unstructured way of thinking sometimes can be a positive for local home grounds, I guess.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: So, example, like in Indonesia, so this is for the first time we launch a detergent, but we see the potential, the category, the brand, it's already quite cluttered in that sense.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: But we saw the plant this detergent is not exist or not yet exist.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: So then we launch this category in Indonesia, so we create a new sub-segment in this category.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: So that's example in Indonesia.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: When it comes to products, examples.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: So now we are Copico is a leading coffee brand, and number one, I think more than 45% market share in the Philippines in coffee mix.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: So we with a big multinational company there, and we also bit the local player in Philippines.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: The success formula is actually the formulation is not the same with the coffee that we sell in the rest of the market.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: So it means you do a certain personalizations for a specific country.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: So that's a couple of examples that I can share.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: So uh so when you're really talking about uh you know the onslaught of uh say e-commerce or uh department stores, the modern trade launching their own private labels, uh, so the real challenge that you have is uh you are always under margin pressure, and therefore, how do you really approach this problem of you've got a you're a house of brands, right?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: So when I look at uh you know uh Myora, there's a house of brands, so therefore, you may not be able to uh you know spend all your money on say uh one brand, uh, but if you do a house of brands, then again you have a problem.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do you uh really balance your media?
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: And one thing that I read in one of your interviews, you talk you said we use a lot of intuition when it comes to media buying, okay?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: So that was very interesting point that you made.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, what is the kind of intuitions that you use, and how do you apply that when you really look at uh you know buying media being present in uh you know stores?
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh how do you really uh you know uh how do you really bring this uh a capability for such a large brand portfolio?
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, yes, yes.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_02: I think number one when we when I say about intuition, it's not about guessing.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_02: So intuitions normally come when you have uh solid data behind it, okay so that you get a good gut feeling or intuitions to that things.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: So, example, e-commerce.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: So, by intuitions, we feel that it is quite hard for FMCG brand, to be honest, because the by the category itself, it is very impulse.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: So it is very hard for the consumer to buy one dollar pickets of product like chocolate or candy via e-commerce, while at the same time they need to pay one dollar for the delivery cost as well.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I think uh so many people I think obsess or maybe put the wrong investment behind the e-commerce just because everybody goes e-commerce.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: But in a certain category, it doesn't work that way, so that our intuitions get validated by our data and things like that, and we have a few that for CPG e-commerce may be not that easy.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: That's why in most of the ASEAN market, I would say the contribution of e-commerce is less than 5%.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: So different cases, maybe like US or in China, for whatever reasons, convenience, because of you know the social structure, also the family structure is different, because no mates can be impactful, impact to the way they behave.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: But what I take note is though the e-commerce is still small, it doesn't mean we did not focus or we did not build our present there.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: So it is, I think, important, be it near future or later, but now you need to build that knowledge first.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, but to hope that it has a big impact as a contribution to the business still takes time for CPG, which is very impulse category in that sense.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: No, I uh I I tend to agree with you on that.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because uh globally I was doing some uh you know uh analysis and the global e-commerce market uh number that we are talking, so it's just 25% of the global offline retail sales.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: So so therefore that's the kind of number that one needs to really look at.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I I would agree with you on that.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: But tell me, uh, so then when you look at e-commerce, uh how would you then uh how should a CPG then approach e-commerce?
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because you know, uh I I basically uh you know do uh market uh visits, then I I when I use the word I you know I go to the department store, I buy my household groceries, my monthly buys.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that's really what I do, but now the social structure, the uh whole thing about delivery at home, uh a whole social structure is changing, right?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: So what was uh you know, what was the culture, maybe uh, you know, in at least my era to you know to the Gen Z era will be very, very different.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: So do you see uh you know distribution channel innovation being very very important in CPG?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it is important because you know it is not like 10 years before where T Fee is still dominant, easily to you know build awareness, but to the Zenzi is very hard.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: I think maybe at some point we can discuss about interesting stuff like digital.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: For me, digital is very hard to penetrate the consumer mind, so very, very ineffective, but we don't have a choice, but maybe we can discuss that later.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: But when it comes to channel, I think e-commerce is important, but the issue that we have for CPG a lot of research done.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe this is outside China, outside US.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: People look for either cheaper price or free delivery or promotion, which make the brand owner, it's very hard to build the brand through e-commerce.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: So the way I see that is how you bring a value to consumer through your product via e-commerce by having could be a different picket compared to what you sell in offline so that you are not trapped into the price discount and things like that.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: That's my view.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: So, second, how you really build use that image instead of like only a selling channel, become a brand building channel.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: This is good, I think, while the e-commerce is not yet significant contribution, so I can use it as a strategic channel at this point.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: So that's what I'm thinking about the e-commerce.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: So you talked about digital, and uh you made a very interesting point around brand building through digital, because when you really look at uh you know digital, digital is seen as uh you know performance marketing, right?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but in CPG, uh you need to build a value proposition, uh brand positioning, and uh and a consumer need, and only then the purchase happens.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, therefore, when you approach digital, uh, unlike say financial services category, right?
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, the way CPG should approach digital, is there a different template and a framework that needs to be built?
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: Completely agree, yes.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_02: So, in fact, I think try to avoid a lot of the performance marketings just because of it becomes the buzzword and Everybody go after that.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_02: And now I think quite happy.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: Many big global brands now realize that performance marketing doesn't build the brands.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: So it helps the business.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's needed, but it will not bring build the brand in the long term.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: So that's what we are really trying to understand and be careful when it comes to digitals.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: At the same time, I think it is still very hard to build the brands through digitals.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: So in fact, I think in Indonesia, I talked a lot about this.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: So many people say that Ricky doesn't believe in digital.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I said I believe in the digital, but for the audience, maybe the audience of this podcast, I asked themselves.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: My first question is do you remember any ad that you see in digital?
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: One.com and things like that, but very hard when it comes to CPG.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: Now the next question is what brand that you remember about food and beverages?
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: CPG, eh?
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: That's the second question.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_02: The third question I can ask you is what is the brand?
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: What is the brand that is promoted there?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: If they remember, good.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: The last question is what message are they trying to say?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: From what my experience tells me, 99% tell the message only two, whatever the brands, whatever the category.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's about promotion or discount.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: So when it comes to this problem, I think uh I want to shake even the whole marketer in the world, the agency in the world.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_02: So come to think, don't talk about the metric first.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: You got to think how to make digital work.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_02: Because we cannot ignore TV.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's declining.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: The ability to reach the consumer is declining.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: But how you convey the message becomes a problem.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: Well, TV is declining, even though not bad, but the digital itself doesn't take the role of the TV.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: But I have a hope if the smart TV becomes a lot more accessible, penetrate more, then the chances for the people to see the ad in the digital, in the big screen, may help.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: That one hope that I that I really expect to happen.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: But when it is in the mobile phone, it will be struggling for me to really, you know, convey our brand message to the consumer.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_02: Unless we crack it in such a way it's really engaging and become viral, then people get that message.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: But when we talk about virality, there is no formula.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: Very tough.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: Or it is expensive.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: So this is, I think, uh, everybody needs to think stop talking about measurement, stop about you know, talking about something sophisticated, but let's together find a way to ensure we get a formula to make anything, our communications effective through all the digital channels.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's a really the point that I want to raise in this.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: Brilliant.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I I totally agree with you.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, uh I resonate with you uh in that uh in that uh regard because uh if you look at CPG, you need to build a brand pull.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, uh the brand pull then drives the brand purchase, and therefore, how do you really build the brand pull is the most important uh reason to buy, right?
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: Reason to believe the RTB for the brand, okay, has to be the proposition, the consumer need, uh, you know, the segment that you are talking about, and therefore, digital needs to build the brand, and that's uh you know, and therefore, you need to probably intertwine uh brand building messages with uh you know promotion messages, and you need to intertwine it, and that's really the power of digital marketing.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: If CPG have to find it successful, would you agree with me on that?
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: I agree completely.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we still need performance marketing, promotion things, but how you balance it and ensure we can have both uh short-term and long terms, yeah.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: So, so I see a lot of uh you know CPG brands setting up their own e-commerce shops, right?
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: Or uh, you know, they then talk about uh you know being present in YouTube, being present in Google search, and you know, things like that.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so uh if you were to say hey, I have about say a dollar to spend approximate, and then say, hey, where would I put it?
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, would you put it uh you know in uh you know in a distribution channel, would you put it at the point of purchase?
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh would you put it because then people will say, hey, nobody visits uh some of these stores.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: So therefore, how do you how do you uh you know argue with that debate?
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, okay.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_02: I think when we go back to consumers, the problem in most of the e-commerce, example, I think like in China, which is Alibaba, they have Timo.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: It is acting like a supermarket, so it's like a grocery store when I can buy multiple categories from multiple uh principles.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: Same case maybe with uh Amazon, but Amazon is less complex in that sense.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: 80% of the users is Amazon Prime, which is they don't pay any delivery costs.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: So, take example in Indonesia, there are maybe top five e-commerce players.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: The issue is we don't have like a TMO.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: Like they have a supermarket, but it's not big.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: So, what happened?
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_02: Even the big brand like PNG Universe and like us, we built our own store inside the e-commerce.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: But the issue with that, the consumers do not buy only from Mayora, do not buy only from PNG when they are doing shopping.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_02: Correct.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: So that's I think a challenge because while the infrastructure is not there yet.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_02: So our view basically, we still need to build our personal, our own store, but we need to realize as well the contribution may still take time.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: So uh so we've spoken a lot about e-commerce, digital.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, that's the uh you know, that's the topic that everybody wants to uh you know discuss.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so one of the points that I want to spend on is consumer insight in CPG, right?
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: Uh uh, you know, uh I would say sorry the heart of the CPG.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's the heart of CPG, right?
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's about consumer insighting, it's about the day in the life of the consumer.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so how would you see it going forward to what was it in the past?
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do you do consumer insight today?
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because I am an omni-channel customer, you know, I I I know I do offline, I do online, uh, you know, I do all kinds of things.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: So when it comes to consumer insight, uh, how do you really look at consumer insight in this new era?
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I think somehow I feel it is easier because of the technology.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: So example, if I need to do a lot of focus group, maybe, especially when I talk about more than two countries.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_02: So it's very hard for us to traveling from one country to the other country or to do it uh to do the proper FGDs.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: But I think because of the pandemic, because of the technology, thanks to Zoom, maybe, so you can do a lot and easier FGD through Zoom, which is possible.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, there is plus and minus between the traditional way of doing it versus via Zoom.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: But the good things with Zoom, I can basically get more information and more insights.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_02: If I want to validate what glasses that they use, in traditional FGD, it's very hard because the consumer had to bring it, you know, the cup of that coffee, the cup of coffee, right?
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_02: Very hard.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_02: If I forgot to ask them to bring it, they may not bring it.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: But this is via Zoom, I can see it.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe if it is possible, they can see the way they make it at home.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: So I think in somehow it's getting better with the technology of it.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_02: So that's one thing I think for sure.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_02: Research helps us a lot in finding those kinds of things.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_02: But despite I think of the technology, the situation, everything makes us a lot easier.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: But one thing that never changed is you, I think as a marketer, we really need to go to the market, see the consumers, and observe.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think for me, that is still the best.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: So, despite I think all the technology that enable us to gain a lot of insight, a lot of data.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_02: But I think one still the best way I found it is you visit, talk to the consumer, talk to the customer.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes that one or two consumers really bring a lot of insights, which at the end you can validate bigger and proper study, I guess.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: So you're saying if you are a CPG marketer, your core advice is spend time observing the customer.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, that is uh that's a critical part of what any CPG marketer should do while you do FGDs and all market research and uh you know consumption studies and things like that.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: Go observe your customer is a key advice that you're giving.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, because it is very, very, very easy to get a lot of data.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: I can just bring the media agency, I can bring the research agency, I can bring consultant, I can bring anyone that can bring and give me too much data sometimes.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: But I think the real ones talk directly to consumers, then at least it's proven on me.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: That would be my yeah, my view.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, uh given all these changes, uh Ricky, uh, how do you see the agency of the future?
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because today, when I look at uh you know agencies or when you look at marketers, uh you know they they produce films, uh, you know, they use a lot of freelancers, you know, they go to production houses, uh, you know, they use influencer marketing.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: So if I were uh an agency, how do you, as probably a very influential CMO, uh, you know, how do you look at the structure of say an agency in say uh you know 2030?
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so how do you see the structure of the agency and what do you believe is the biggest value that you want out of that uh agency uh for your brands?
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, it's uh tough and exciting questions based on my uh observation and experience.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: So the agency side, of course, I think when we talk to the agency, a lot of requests from the client, right?
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: They want client to improve behaving this way, but now I have uh what you call it privilege to say what I want.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_02: So uh the good things with our company example as a marketer, we produce you know 60, six more than 60 ads every every year.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: So be this is not to mention digital contents.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: Plus, I think a lot of content creators, which is not an agency, they are just a normal people, suddenly become popular, get a luck, become the influencers, be it in TikTok or YouTube.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_02: So I think the agency, one thing they need to be really open.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: So they are not the only creative persons.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: So they need to think how to leverage the creativity in the client side or in the KOL side.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: They cannot be in my long time back, in my era, digital, the creative chief creative persons will say that don't touch their creative.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: This is my my field.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't think it is now the ways to go.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: 2020, maybe the idea can be coming from the clients, and you just need to tidy up, make sure the big idea even betters.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_02: So it's slightly different, I think.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's not only depends on completely to the agency, but how the agency can reap the market, can read the client wants, make the big idea as a brand platform to grow even further.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_02: So there is no ego.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_02: I think that should the way to go.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody is a content creator at this moment.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, so true, so true.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: So you are saying build an ecosystem of creative people and leverage content and uh become a creative exchange for the brand.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: Is that the kind of a platform that CMOs want out of agencies?
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah, the mindset is difference because we believe later in the futures the idea can be coming from anywhere, can coming from my phones through Chat GPT sometimes.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: So uh so when I'm uh you know when I'm uh say mid-level marketing uh you know manager, and uh, you know, I'm actually looking at becoming a CMO in the next uh you know, say five or ten years, uh, what are the core skills you believe a CMO need to have?
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: And uh what do you think are uh you know non-negotiable in terms of competencies and skills a CMO should have today to get a seat on the table with the CEO?
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: I think okay.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_02: I I think in a broad way, I see there are two skills.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: One is the creativity, second is the analytical skill.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: So these two look simple, but this is what we really needed.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_02: Not only as a CMO, but I think as a marketer in general.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_02: So, because we need both to be successful in driving a campaign and successful in building the brands.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: But at the same time, I think the skill of the CMO, when they have the creativity and analytical skill, so sometimes they are not so perfect in creativity, which is fine, but they need to realize that so they can do, in my view, I call it like L I C E lies.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: So they need to be able to leverage whatever the knowledge that they have in their team, agency, media partner, or whatever it is, then be able to integrate that I and collab with whatever they needed, technology, and execute, be able to execute excellently.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: So, what I mean examples, as a CMO, I I don't know actually what is the motions technology, what is the face recognition technology.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_02: I may not know it.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: But if I know someone be able to do that, I can drive the campaigns with examples, the campaigns by Catbury in India, which is very integrated using the Sharul Khan, the technology of uh so everybody, even the store owner, can use Sharul Khan to promote their stores.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't think the CMO understands completely the way the technology is working, but they be able to leverage, integrate, collab excellently with the other people.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_02: So that's I think what is needed.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: On top of those two, creativity and analytical skill, I guess.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: So uh would you say that uh uh if you want to have a seat on the table with the CEO and your board, uh uh should a CMO, in addition to the creativity and the analytical skills, uh how important do you think is business skills?
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because half the time there's a lot of discussion around you know, my uh you know, my uh metrics on brand salience is improving, and they would actually put a PPT which will say, hey, brand salience is increasing.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: The CEO would keep saying, you know what, my sales is not increasing, right?
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: So therefore, the ability to have business skill understanding and not just say, you know what, my job ends with you know delivering a great creative and a great communication, uh, is no more acceptable uh you know at the board level or at the CEO level, and therefore the need for understanding business is is it's is it critical?
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I think uh more than just critical, it is a given, I think.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's no what you call it, is no debatable, it is a given.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe I'm quite lucky in that sense my background in finance.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_02: So for us, but for me, maybe to understand the financial statement is a lot easier.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_02: But a lot of marketers or CMO, the background was not in marketing, but I completely agree with you, is business uh knowledge is very important because no point you can draft the campaigns without bringing any result, and on top of that, I think the entrepreneur uh skill is also I think is required as a CMO.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: So when you say uh entrepreneur skill, so what is this entrepreneurial skill that you're talking about?
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: So just give me some example of uh what kind of an entrepreneurial skill as a CMO I should have.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I think uh ideas that you bring in, so not only for the assist product or assisting brands, but any ideas related be it to marketing or business process, I think we need to be able to give something better.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_02: So, example, you can have a good idea.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_02: If I already have a home care example, is that a good moment when we think about the personal care example?
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_02: Because the distributions can be the same, the consumer knowledge maybe already have the basis.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_02: So, how you expand that to bring more business to the companies at the same time, of course, for example, you also think about the process.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_02: So, how you bring a marketing process to be better, especially when you reach so many markets, you need to change the way you see your marketing team at the same time.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_02: So, how you're not only talking about creativity, but you need also to talk about make it more efficient, make a business grow faster, that kind of mindset.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_02: I think I completely agree.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_02: Business acumen, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, uh couple of last questions.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, if you are looking at a success metric for marketing, uh, what are the key KPIs uh that you would think uh are very, very important in this new era of uh omni-channel, digital, you've got the traditional TV, uh, you've got distribution.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: So if you say business skill is important, creativity is important, ideas are important, you have to be entrepreneurial.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: How do you uh put the success metric for a CMO?
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: And if there were three or four things that you would say, hey, I need this KPI to be added to a CMO, what are the one or two KPIs that you think are important?
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I think for me, hard measure number one, is which is related to uh business performance, I think, yeah.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_02: Top line, bottom line, that's as easy as that.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_02: Second is about the soft measures, so we can talk about imageries, brand use most often, or whatever specific campaign target that I think is what is important, but on top of that, I think if I can have a measurements which is consumer, give a consumer reason that they cannot give any reason why they like or buy our products, so that I think the highest level of the success marketing campaigns.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_02: So the consumer buy our product, give them a reason, which the reason they cannot explain.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_02: So that I think the ultimate goal, I think for me especially that would be fantastic.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting, very interesting.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so which is one marketer or brand that uh you know you look up to?
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think uh Nike, Absolute Fodka, Apple, Coke, and Copico from our side.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_02: I think the brands that I am quite inspiring to okay.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, which is uh one campaign that you recently came across which you wished that you could have been a part of or you could have created it.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe not recently, but I'm obsessed with the just do it tagline, to be honest.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_02: I I wish I part or I'm part of it.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_02: Because that idea is so much simpler.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_02: There is an actions to call.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_02: At the same time, sometimes as a marketer, I feel it between the logo and the tagline, somehow it works very well.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's just just perfect for me.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know why.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe just my personal observations.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: If uh you were to look back and say, which is one campaign that you built that you are proud of, which one would you uh name and why?
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, maybe two campaigns.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: Number one is uh anline, anilin is a high calcium milk powders.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_02: So basically the brand is fighting osteoporosis disease.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: So what we do is we created what we call as a movement, which is a total solutions movement.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_02: You drink this product is clinically proven to help to prevent you to get the osteoporosis.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_02: At the same time, you need exercise.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_02: So the doctor needs to have a solid reason also why I need to support your brands.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_02: You cannot just say, you know, drink this product.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_02: So we said that you also need to do the exercise, but we choose uh walking because the brand is so uh what you call it credible.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_02: When we say and suggest to consumer to walk, we give them pedometer also.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_02: So this is back in 2004.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_02: So in Indonesia at the time, pedometer is not well known, which is now everybody and then owns it through their mobile phone, right?
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_02: So we encourage people to start uh walking 10,000 steps.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_02: So the association that's successfully created by us then links strongly to the brands.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_02: So that's I think uh beyond just campaigns, it's drive and it moves the people that that I'm quite proud of.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_02: In Mayora, I think the other campaigns that I like it is uh Roma, Roma campaign.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_02: Roma is our biscuit, it's the oldest brand in Mayora, which is in India.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_02: We launched small kiss using Abacha.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so the brand is so strong, it's so solid, is so what you call it, deep into our consumer in Indonesia particularly.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_02: But I successfully, you know, work as a team, work with the owner, we change, not change, we rejuvenate the brands, the packaging, which is not so easy when you do example like in parology.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_02: I want to change the parology brand, so it's not that easy.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_02: We successfully created that, but I think uh on top of rejuvenate, then I learned that behind a big brand like this is there is a very deep uh process that we need to understand as well.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_02: So, for example, when I speak to our master baker, which is more than 30 years, baking biscuit only in his life.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_02: So they said to make the pictures, you only think maybe three things the aperture, the speed, and iso.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_02: But in biscuit, they said it keeps changing and more than three parameters.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes the width also differs, depends on the man.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_02: So they said what you need to adjust is completely soft complex.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_02: Not to mention if this is going through the oven, and the oven has certain stages that where you need a very high skill and understanding and experience to ensure that the biscuit still moisturizes, but also at the same time still crunchy and tastes delicious.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I thought that wow.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_02: So many criteria: the water contents, the shape of the wheat, and that kind of thing.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_02: Then after we're realizing that, then we promote that to consumers.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_02: So it's actually to prove that how dedicated these people behind the brands to just give a smile in your face when you buy this biscuit.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_02: So that's why our tagline is serving goodness and happiness.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_02: So that's we are quite proud of.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_02: Without that campaigns, I don't know what it takes behind the brands, to be honest.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful, beautiful.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_00: And my final question to you, Ricky, is uh if there was a 21-year-old marketing student listening to this podcast, uh, what would you what would your advice be for them?
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh, you know, how what are the things that they should be ready with as they get into a career in marketing?
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so okay, very good question.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_02: I hope I give the right information and insight.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_02: But for me, is do not learn just about marketing.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_02: That would be my advice.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_02: So they need to learn about other things, could be statistic, economic, behavioral economics, psychology, which I think in my experience, which is non-marketing people, a lot complex, not just marketing.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_02: And you need to be able to understand the consumers, you need to be able to compile all the information, the data, the observations that you already gathered.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_02: So it requires a lot of skill, just marketing, more than just marketing book, I would say.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_02: So that would be my advice.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: What a what an advice! Thanks, Ricky.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_00: It was really lovely talking to you.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, some of your answers were, I would say, authentic as your brand.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, very, very the integrity and the trust that a brand needs pretty much uh is what I could hear and hear you speak and say, and that was something which was uh very very uh you know visible in your conversation.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks a lot.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_00: Lovely talking to you.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks a lot.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks a lot.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_02: I learned a lot as well.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening to this episode.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: For selected links and detailed show notes, visit www.contraminds.com.
• 50:00
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• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening and stay safe.