Latest / Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby / How Do You Process Trauma That Isn’t Yours? | Dr. Thomas Hübl | Happiness | E529

Transcript

How Do You Process Trauma That Isn’t Yours? | Dr. Thomas Hübl | Happiness | E529 · Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby

• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Quick hello before we dive in n a big thank
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• 1:22
  Speaker 1: Now let's get into it.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: When my parents and my grandparents carried a load of
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: fear stress, it might amplify, not only lead up to
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: my own attachment process, but it might amplify what I experience.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: Have you ever had a reaction to something that was
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: kind of out of context for what was objectively happening,
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: Like you got a text or there was a tone
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: of voice or a look, and suddenly you were flooded
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: or furious or like shut down. Well, here's a new idea.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: Your nervous system might be responding to a story that
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: started a long time before you were even born. Not
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: because you're being dramatic or you know you're wiring is off,
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: but because you may have inherited an emotional burden that
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: you don't even know that you're carrying. And maybe you're
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: responding to a collective trauma rather than one that you
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: personally experienced.
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: When we look back. Most probably like in my family,
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: my grandparents were in the Second World War, they experienced
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: the Second World where they hit their own trauma from
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: that that got passed on to my parents to me,
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: and so well, that's a whole system. These are not
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: separate things.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: I know, these are big ideas, but that's where we're
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: going today. How to talk about the difference between what
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: is yours to carry, what is a legacy from your family,
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: and what are you responding to in the emotional atmosphere
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: that we've all been living in for the purpose of
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: seeing how to finally release what you were never meant
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: to carry in the first place. Friends, setting the mood
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: for us today, Peter Gabriel. The song is Sandstorm from
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: a gorgeous album, The Last Temptation of Christ's been around
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: for a while, but this I think you'll understand actually
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: why I chose the song. By the time this conversation
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: is done. Today we go to some really powerful, mystical
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: even places. If this is your first time listening, thank
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: you so much for being here being part of this conversation.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: I'm your host, Doctor Lisa, Marie Bobby. This is love,
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: happiness and success, where every week we're tackling a big idea,
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: a new way of thinking, feeling, behaving that supports your
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: wellness on every level. And today I could not be
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: more thrilled to introduce you to doctor Thomas Huvel. He's
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: a teacher and trauma integration facilitator who is an expert
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: in exactly this. He is focused on not just the
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: trauma or burdens we carry within, but collective and intergenerational
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: trauma that impacts us, sometimes without our even fully being
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: aware of it. He is a visiting scholar at Harvard's
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: Wiss Institute, and he's here to share insights from his
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: new book, co written with the creator of internal family systems,
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: doctor Richard Schwartz. The book is called Releasing Our Burdens,
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: which explores healing at the individual level, but also the
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: intersection of ancestral and collective healing in a way that
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: is practical, compassionate, and honestly relieving in a lot of
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: ways because it creates a new dimension of healing. So,
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: doctor Hubal, it's such a pleasure to speak with you.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: get to know you through this conversation.
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: Grad too, Yes, we were chatting. I've had the great
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: pleasure of having the opportunity to visit with your co author,
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: doctor Schwartz. So I admire and respect him so much.
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: And your work with him is focused on this idea
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: of the collective burden and how we are influenced by
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: burdens we carry from a number of different dimensions. And
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: I wonder if we could start our conversation with your
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: just unpacking this for us, because I think that this
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: is a new idea for a lot of people, I
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: mean myself included. So I think I'm just as interested
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: in learning from you as our listeners are today.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you. Yes, I think just bringing Richard towards
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: more into our conversation. So we know each other for
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: many years, and then the more we talked, we found
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: out that actually we are passionate about similar things, and
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: that eventually LEDs to us co teaching, and then we
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: developed this book together releasing our burdens. But the resonance
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: that we found is, of course we all experience varience
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: certain levels of trauma through our I don't know, childhood
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: experiences developed the whole our biographical life, and so that
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: and most of it we might create the connection to
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: Maybe some of it is too early, but that's within
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: the frame of our biographical experience, and both Richard and
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: I from through different ways. We So wait a minute,
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: if I put it into simple terms, now we can say, yeah,
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: the childhood attachment trauma mostly happens because our parents are
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: also traumatized to a certain extent, and the trauma of
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: my parents and my own attachment trauma interdependent properties. So
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: they are not separate things. So they belong together because
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: they create each other. And so when we look back
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: most probably like in my family, my grandparents were in
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: the Second World War, the experienced the Second World where
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: they had their own trauma from that that got passed
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: on to my parents and to me, and so well
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: that's a whole system. These are not separate things. These
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: are the experiences. And let's discern between the resource or
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: the integrated experience of our ancestors is intelligence. In us,
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: it's resilience, its capacity, it's skilled, it's what's anyway flowing
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: in our life. But the other dimension is what our
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: ancestors could not integrate because it was too much for
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: them and there was no possibility to really look at it,
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: integrate it healed. So that also has been passed on
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: and it affects us. Yeah, sorry you wanted to Oh no, no.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: No, I'm so sorry. I was just appreciating what you
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: were saying about how we are, at least in part
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: a product of where we come from the people who
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: existed before us, and that there is a perhaps this
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: is an overly simplistic way of saying it. Correct me here,
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: but like that that legacy of intergenerational trauma that our parents,
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: our grandparents, their parents lived through things that impacted them.
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: Sometimes they did the best they could, just survived it. Right,
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: But there's there's sometimes unfinished business that we then inherited
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: and need to resolve in the here and now.
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: Exactly it's beautifully put, beautifully put. So there's unfinished business,
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: and unfinished business is passed on being passed on, and
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: so now it's with us, and part of it we
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: call my individual issues my individual stuff that I need
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: to work through. But it's not just only so individual.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: It's individual because it concerns my own experience and my
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: own childhood development. And there are tendencies like echos. They
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: come from our ancestors that in my life too, and
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: some of the symptoms that I experience they don't fully
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: make sense in my life. But when I look back
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: and I say, oh, but if I open the map
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: of healing from it being very personal me to oh,
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: that me is a product, as you said, of a
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: long stream of living. And there are tendencies and echoes
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: like when you have a pipe and you hear the
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: echo of the echo of the echo of the echo
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: through the pipe. So we deal with those echoes too,
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: and we grow up in that. It's part of the
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: equalities in our ecosystem and these are qualities that we experience.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: Maybe part of it is psychologe, but part of it
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: is also epuguenetic. It's like it's in ourselves. It's information
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  Speaker 2: that it's like there's a data stream through the ancestors.
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  Speaker 2: And for many people it's relieving when we can do
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: a personal work, but also see there's a possibility to
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: work on this unfinished business that you said in the
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: different ways to do that to really create more relief
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: and heal basically backwards, but in this present moment, as
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: you so beautifully pointed out.
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: So interesting and it's so interesting to hear you give
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: this all a voice, just personally to share. I had
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: an experience probably a few years ago where I connected
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: some of these dots in my own life. So, like you,
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: my grandparents were in Europe in World War Two. I'm
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: actually a first generation American. They emigrated here with my father,
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: and to understanding their experience and the experience of being
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: an immigrant in the United States and not speaking the
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: language and like the cultural differences, but also some of
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: the values that came to me. But also some of
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: the anxiety I think that comes with being an immigrant
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  Speaker 1: in this country, and of course, like white European immigrants
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  Speaker 1: are having a very different experience than some other populations.
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: But like, because I was like, why am I so
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: driven to succeed in doing a podcast or a business
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: or whatever like all these things, and I think part
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: of my like ambition to do things is an inheritance
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: from people who are like, yeah, you are actually being
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: chased by wolves. There is you have to like build it.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: And that was actually really helpful for me because it
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: helped me understand myself better. And like where this came
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: from was that legacy if I'm unders and I don't
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: know if I would frame that as being a tr trauma,
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: but certainly an inheritance. Is that the kind of example
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: of what you're talking about in your work?
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: Much so? Yeah, very much so. We know that that
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: fear and stress in our ancestors leads to the fact
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: that we have more fear and stress receptors in our lives,
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: so we are actually more sensitive we experience this more.
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: And something else that you just said is I want
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: to one hundred percent underline because I worked with different
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: immigrant families or people that are in part of our
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: groups where we look at roots and exactly what you
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: described is a very typical pattern in a way of
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: immigrating into a society, not speaking the languages you said,
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: not belonging, needing to make it. The next generation takes
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: it on, amplifies it, and so it takes some generations
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: to really be able to ground and the stress in there,
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: this anxiety and few there and the like. There are
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: many things, and I think especially now when immigration collectively
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: is such a big topic that it seems like, for
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: example in the US, is very hard to resolve as
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: a societal dialogue. It becomes so polarized. And then we say, well,
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: it's so polarized because it's left and right, or it's
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: the Democrats and the Republicans, and saying, no, it's because
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: immigration and the trauma of immigrating, because for some people
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: it was really traumatizing to what people went away from
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: why they really immigrated was not only oh I'm the
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: CEO of this company, I take my private jet and
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: then I'm the CEO of another company. Okay, that's a
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: different immigration, but for many people that's not the story.
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: And let the Transatlantic slave trade and really traumatizing enslavement.
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: And then we see the inability to resolve a societal
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: question however we see it, there is an inability to
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: resolve it, and that I think is a deep collective
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: trauma symptom. It's not a political symptom, that these are
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: all symptoms, but deep down it seems we cannot hold
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: a relational space to resolve our views on immigration at
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: the moment. And I think exactly I'm picking just up
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: on this because when you brought this, I think that's
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: such a timely topic to find a very different way
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: of conversation. And I think the integration work is very
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: important here.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: Definitely, But I mean that in this framework that perhaps
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: even that is another collective trauma in some ways that
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: we are all experiencing, or at least in the ENNI states,
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: is living in this fractured, polarized society and what that
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: conflict does to relationships and sometimes relationships with our family members.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: And also like the larger framework is that I think
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: it feels kind of stressful and scary and distressing for everyone,
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: Like no matter what side of the spectrum you're on,
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: there is that there's such divides and a less and
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: less functional system. It seems like that there's a collective
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: impact on all of us because of that.
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, yeah, go ahead, go ahead.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: Oh no, that's so it's creating sort of new traumas
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: in some ways. But you're saying too that it maybe
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: it's an expression of unfinished business that all participants are
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: bringing to that table as well.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah. We held groups where people where we literally explored
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: the immigration waves, so that you and what kind of
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: from different parts in the world and at different times,
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: and how that impacts our experience as citizens, our experience
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: of groundedness, of safety, of capacity to deal with challenges.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: And it was very obvious that there are very similar
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: patterns in the different generations of immigration. And I think
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: that the current crisis must be an invitation for us
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: to say, wow, there is actually beyond projecting this on
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: different political camps and different political strategies. I think that's
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: already a symptom of a much deeper, unresolved collective dimension
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: that when we really look at it and we have
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: a facilitated national community based national dialogue, where we develop
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: the right relational spaces that can have that dialogue and
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: build the capacity, then I think there could be an
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: enormous transformation and societal growth because it's the healing trauma
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: or collective trauma becomes postraumatic. Growth becomes wisdom, becomes more expression,
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: becomes ethical, growth becomes so many things. And I think
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: whenever these crisis show up, it's always a signpost to
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: look deeper and say, Okay, what actually really divides us
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: so much that we cannot even talk to each other?
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, hey, I'm going to do a super quick
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: plug for another person that I am a super fan of,
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: doctor Bill Doherty, who is leading the way in this
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: movement with his organization and nonprofit called Braver Angels. Anyone listening,
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: go back through my podcast feed look for the episode
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: with doctor Bill Doherty talking about that movement and how
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: to have safe conversations across divides that do exactly what
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: doctor Hubel is talking about right now, increasing understanding empathy
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: and moving back towards the center. Again, there's a lot
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: of wisdom there. Okay, So doctor Horble, so tell us
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: more than about your work and how this this framework
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: understanding not just where we are now, but where we
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: came from and the systems around us and how they
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: impact us. How does this support individual healing, like somebody
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: who's like I'm I'm not having a hard time, I
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: don't feel good and currently is looking at themselves as
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: being the source of that. What makes what becomes possible
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: through the lens of your work.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good that's a very good questions. So,
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: first of all, one mission of our book was to
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: open the mapal feeling to say, Okay, there are parts
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: that we need to heal in our development when we
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: struggle in life that are very personal, that are really
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: very personal, and they need to be treated to dealt
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: to it or integrate it in this dimension of our experience.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: And that that's very important because some people try to
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: bypass the personal part by going too fast to the
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: collective or to the intergenerational, and so there is there
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: is a real need to do that well, both therapy
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: and all kinds of healing modalities do.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: In And what would be an example of something that
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: would be this, this isn't me that I need to
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: work through.
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, first of all, like an example for a bypass
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: or an example for the collective trauma.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: I know that's somebody something that would be like this,
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: this is mine, This is not collective, This is something
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: that I need to work through resolve that.
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there might be a dimension, for example, of
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: my fears and insecurity that are truly related to my
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: growing up as a child, and I don't know, experiencing
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: difficult situations or feeling neglected or whatever, so that my
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: attachment is not secure and I have anxieties from that phase.
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: And often when I need to take decisions, I can
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: I'm undecided, I don't know how to make the I
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: prolong the decision making process whatsoever. Or I feel less
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: connected to my body and it's hard for me to
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: feel myself and feel my intuition or my God's feeling
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: and so on. So there is definitely a dimension of
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: my fears that come from my childhood development. And at
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: the same time, it might also be like when you
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: have this Wi Fi extenders or amplifiers that amplify your
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: Wi Fi signal that you have a longer range. When
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: my parents and my grandparents carried a lot of fear stress,
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: it might amplify not only lead up to my own
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: attachment process, but it might amplify what I experience. So
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: some of the fears, even if I do my childhood
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: development work, it will ease my struggle, maybe with anxiety
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: or insecurity. But then the journey continues, and it's like
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: with a cup. When you fill a cup and you
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: feel enough water into this cup at a certain moment,
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: it overflows. So when we do our childhood development work
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: and we heal more and we feel, oh, I become
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: more fluid. I have become more self, and I can
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: speak more openly. My creative expression is more fluid. And
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: then I feel yeah, and different layers of my fear
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: they are not just in my own personal development. And
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: then when I begin to say, okay, what is actually
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: if I open myself to feel into, not just to
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: think about, to feel into my ancestral relationships, and then
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: there might be a whole other range of deepening that
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: healing process of my fears that I see a well,
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: I feel even safer and more grounded and more grounded
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: and more connected to my roots when I opened that
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: up more. And then, of course, for example, I had
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: once I worked with a woman that was born at
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: the end of World War two in Germany in the
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: last one or two years of the war, and there
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: were tons of bombs dropping and and.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: That was my dad's experience, who was a baby in
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: the hospital and they had to write a number on
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: his back in case there was a bomb that went
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: off in the hospital. Crazy, so this might have Yeah,
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: So that was struggle, was real, and so this was
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: the experience of your client who was born at that time.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: Yes, it was an experience. And so when we worked
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: on the very young experience, it reached the limit and
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: then I felt, Oh, but the atmosphere of tension and
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: fear and collective tension around that child, like the ecosystem,
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: how the ecosystem felt. And when we opened the attention
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: from the very early development into the ecosystem that nervous
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: system of the young child definitely felt. It deepened and
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: accelerated the process viitual process by far. Yeah, And it
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: created a huge release because there was a witnessing, a
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: witnessing through us and the group where that happened. There
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: was a witnessing of like a conscious awareness of the
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: ecosystemic quality in which that child grew up. And that
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: released a lot of fear and then the body became
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: more open. Of the woman today, the body became more open.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: You could really feel like like one chronic tension in
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: the system released.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: That's incredible and so like you were able to facilitate
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: an experience where this person was in my mind's eye
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: seeing like an eighteen month old baby who is surrounded
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: by people who are scared out of their minds their
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: bombs going off, and what are we going to do
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: and where are we going to go? And how this
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: little human is absorbing some of that without even recognizing it.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: And you're saying that you help this person witness process
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: some of what they had absorbed during that phase of
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: their life because of what was happening in their context.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: That's right, that's right, and that the defense against that
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: stress that was attention, a holding pattern, a chronic holding
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: for decades in that person's body, just through the fact
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: that it has been noticed, it has been co felt.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: We could feel it together or even the group that
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: was around us, like when we felt it together, this
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: co presencing, it was like as if we plug into
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: nineteen forty four in twoenty fifteen, let's say a number,
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: and we synchronized nineteen four with the current moment now
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: whenever that happened, but it was now so and you
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: said that beautiful At the beginning, when the unfinished business
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: is brought into the present, moment and becomes a relational
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: experience in the present moment, it's released out of its
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: prison in space and time and can become a movement again.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: So what needed And many people feel tensions in their body.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: Some of them really belong. Some of those tensions belong
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: to the defense mechanisms of our childhood development, but some
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: of those are much bigger. And when we see this
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: in groups, for example, we did another example is we
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: did a lot of groups on the Holocaust past in
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: Germany and also in Israel. And whenever a group, let's
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: say hundreds of people come together with an intention, okay,
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: we look at this deeper and then we do some
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: base work, like the first aspect of this work is
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: usually a relationship building, creating a safe container and like
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: building a resonant environment for this work. And then when
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: we set the intention to go deeper, the first thing
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: that usually comes up is the defense that suppresses that material. Collectively,
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: it has a reason why in the society we don't
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: feel suddenly all the pain of the Holocaust, why we
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: don't feel all the pain of slavery and racism in
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: the US, or the channel side in Rwanda, or colonialism
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: in so many places and slaughtering and like because it's
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: collectively suppressed. And so we have seen so many groups
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: where we met that and then many people, hundreds of
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: people can feel the collective defense is having as it's
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: hard to breathe, it's like, but it's collective. It's like
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: many people feel the same thing. And then if we honor,
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: if we don't go against it or try to get
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: around it, but if we honor that that's what's needed
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: in the collective psyche to balance something, and we become
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: aware of the defense, then the deeper content can emerge.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: And I have seen this so many times that in
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: that moment you really feel like it's the pain of
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: the past comes up, but also like a sense of wow,
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: like there's fresh air. And I believe that that tension
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: in the collective unconscious is our tension patterns in our
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: body that are not part of our just individual development.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: They are shared architectures that live in us. Like when
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: you have a chicksaw puzzle, every puzzle piece has a
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: part of the whole image. So we are also part
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: of this collective fields that we suppressed over generations because
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: they were so painful and we couldn't digest it, and
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: so that's another there's this example with the woman that
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: I describe, So that's one that has also like a
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: bit of a collective dimension. And then there is the
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: collective as a group when we touch large that pain
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: fields or trauma fields, and we process some of it,
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: and then we can feel over time as we go
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: through the process, we integrate the past and often, of
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: course people in the room have ancestral passed fits of
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: course to that trauma field, let's say in Germany, the
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: Second World War, the Holocaust, and then you can literally
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: feel like a room that was closed for many years
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: suddenly has a bit of sunlight and oxygen and can
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: breathe and this is so beautiful, like after rain, when
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: when it rains and then the sun comes out. And
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: that's usually how it feels in a group space. And
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: when when we integrate a portion, of course, we don't
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: integrate everything about a portion of like a collective. This
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: massive impact that you spoke about, that the whole society
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: has been hurt and bombs were falling and there was
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: femine or violence.
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: Like it's like a cleansing. But that that on an
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: individual level, people then feel differently after that that they
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: were being influenced or impacted by that, maybe without even
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: knowing it. Doctor people, I am like mesmerized by what
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: we're talking about. Right now. We need to take a
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: really quick break, and I've like, I haven't even wanted it.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: We need to And on the other side, I would
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: love to have you talked more deeply about maybe even
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: some of the how we can move into those spaces
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: on our own or in a group, and how it
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: can change the way we think, feel, behave, relate, move
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: through the world because of doing that work.
• 32:16
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• 35:14
  Speaker 1: who will we are talking about your work? Co authored
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: with doctor Richard Schwartz on this big topic of releasing
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: our burdens and how we are all impacted, whether or
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: not we know it, by many layers and dimensions of
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: not just what is existing now, but the things that
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: came before and just before the break. You were talking
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: about facilitating this experiential like engagement with the burdens, the
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: trauma of the past which came to us through the
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: experiences of the people around us we were growing up,
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: but also even this idea of the collective unconscious unconscious
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: just with that, So Carl Jung had a concept of
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: the collective unconscious. Is that what we're talking about right now?
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's very related. Maybe the collective trauma.
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: The trauma formulates some things a bit differently, but yeah,
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: I think that's exactly the dimension of life that has
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: been suppressed as anesthesia, there is numbness as absence. There
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: are all kinds of symptoms exactly. So that's why I
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: love Carlume's work. It's yeah, very related.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: Well to take us into this part. So just before
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: the break, you were talking about this phenomenon of the
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: level of protection, that numbness, that blankness, that unknowing that
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: people develop because it's like too big to process. And
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: so that's part of what you're doing through your work
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: is helping people get through that and reconnect with the truth.
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: But can you talk a little bit, I mean, me, you,
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: any of our friends who are listening to this conversation
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: right now, like, what are examples of how that protection
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: manifests in us? And and also what is the consequence
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: of that?
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: M Yeah, yeah, that's that's the point. Like, so that's
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: beautifully framed, like what's the consequence of it. Sometimes it's
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: great to say, okay, let's do healing. Let's say what's
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: the consequence of not doing healing work? And when we
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: look at I often say trauma is taking a loan
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: from the future. And what I mean by that is,
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: in the traumatic event, you need to activate an intelligence
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: that protects us in a very adverse situations often, right,
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: So it's more intelligence to have that trauma response protect
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: us than without it, because without it it would be
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: even more devastating.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: And is this where we're tying into doctor Schwartz's work,
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: like internal family systems, parts of self that when you
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: live through trauma, these protective parts of yourself become mobilized
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: because you need them. Is that what we're talking.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: About exactly what Richard says, no bad parts. That when
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: we look at ourselves, even if it looks kysfunctional or difficult,
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: there's always an intelligence also active inside. And once we
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: reveal that intelligence why these things are there. They're not
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: there by accident. Whatever is in us has a reason,
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: and when we connect to that intelligence, we can grow. Exactly.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: That's also what Richard describes in a bit of a
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: different language. And so when that trauma response kicks in.
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: I often describe these through metaphors. It's like when I
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: ask you, for example, what's your freezer doing while we're
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: having this conversation, what is my what that we're doing? Freezer,
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: your freezer, your fridge and your freezer.
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: I would imagine humming along doing what it always does.
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: Exactly it's keeping the food frozen, exactly, and who pays
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: the electricity bill? I do exactly. So when we speak
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: about trauma, trauma is frozen life, and it's not just frozen,
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: and that's it. It's being frozen like the freezer in
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: all our households, many of us. It's freezing the food
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: ever since, it's freezing the content and the pain ever since.
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: So it's an egative process.
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: And consuming resources to keep it cold.
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: That's right. It's consuming electricity or life energy to keep
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: it frozen. So all our defenses, per definition, are non
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: sustainable properties of our experience. That's very important, and you
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: pointed to that is what is the cost. The cost
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: is that we burn more life energy to keep that
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: which was difficult individually, ancestrally and collectively. There is a
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: lot of investment shadow investment of life energy to keep
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: that stuff where it is right now in the freezer, frozen, frozen,
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: and healing is in a way melting that frozen past.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: Releasing like that has many effects. That means we invest
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: less electricity because we don't keep it frozen. We saw
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: whatever is in there, melt it and then we get
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: back their content, even if it's at the beginning painful.
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: It's life energy or developmental energy that comes back as wholeness,
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: as expression, as grounding, as safety, as whatever it becomes.
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: And so it's actually a massive gain of energy. And
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: that's why I often say when we talk about sustainability
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: in our societies and our climate change sustainability, I would
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: argue that we cannot live sustainably because our software and
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: our collective software is based partly on non sustainable states.
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: And that means healing is actually a way into the
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: creation of a sustainable society because the more we heal,
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: we use less resources to keep the past split off
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: and frozen and numb and absent, but we allow some
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: of the past to slowly come back, transform itself, be digested,
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: transform itself into a bigger life, a bigger life for
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: us and for our children.
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: Wow, taking the stuff out of the freezer, letting it thought,
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: metabolizing this old trauma that didn't even realize, putting energy
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: into keeping locked down, and that we're doing this on
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: an individual level and also on a societal level. Can
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: you give us some examples of what having a lot
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: of resources going in keeping things frozen looks like for
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: a person, But Also, i'd be curious to hear your
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: take on what does this look like as a culture.
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: What are examples? This is what we're talking about.
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: Yah. For example, some people experiences they say, oh, they're
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: in their intimate relationship. My partner says something and suddenly
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: I feel it's tight in my heart, it's tight in
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: my throat, I get headache, I feel tight in my belly.
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: Whatever symptoms show up. So I see wow, because my
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: partner talk to me like this, I feel like that
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: is often what we hear. But what it's reaction, this reaction.
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: But what my partner points to, however, my partner talk
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: to me is what is already frozen inside, what is
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: already held an intention inside, because my partner does have
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: the remote control from my heart. But when I get
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: triggered here, so then I feel I feel tight, or
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: I don't know what to say, or I feel more mute,
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: or I get very angry, and I get enriched, but
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: I cannot anymore be part of the relational conversation and
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: resolve disagreements together in relationship and so on an individual level,
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: what the symptoms that I feel or that I suddenly
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: feel distant or indifferent or kind of not connected anymore
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: to the conversation. So these are all symptoms where we
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: meet the stuff that's in the freezer. Yeah, and so
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: on an individual level, there might be many or the
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: same or similar colleagues at work triggered me again and again.
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: That's appointed to my freezer. And then whatever happens in
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: different circumstances or my own recurrent inner critique or the
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: way how I look at myself. I look at myself
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: often with what's not right, what needs to be fixed,
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: what's not good yet, whatever, whatever adults in the patterns,
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: they are pre formed pathways of where my past is
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: constantly reproducing my current experience. It's not the mergent, it's
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: not curious, it's not that I want to find out.
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: I look at myself through a spin like it has
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: already a spin, and that spin is not the present moment.
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: That's how I internalize certain criticism, and that's how I
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: look at myself, And so that will be on an
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: individual level, symptoms that that point me towards.
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: Like frozen stuff that is being like that, like rigid, reflexive,
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: reactional kinds of experiences that that's points to the work exactly.
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: And on a societal level. Let's take immigration, or let's
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: take COVID, or let's take any kind of bigger societal
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: impact or conversation we need to have, regardless if I
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: see myself as part of this political camp or that
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: political camp, it's about, at the end of the day,
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: even as a politician or as a citizen, Okay, what's
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: my best contribution and how do I contribute best to
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: a mutual ecosystem that we create together that is the
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: most beneficial for all of us. Because in an ecosystem,
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: if one of us throws poison into the ecosystem, it
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: affects all of us. So what I throw into the
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: water will affect all of us. And if I put
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: a lot of poison into the water, like I will
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: breathe it myself obviously. And we see the best example
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: is microplastic. First, we thought, okay, we're throwing that stuff
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: somewhere out and in a global village, Suddenly day is
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: no out, so it's all in brain Exactually, so we say, well,
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: it's very all this throwout is actually in and so
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: that doesn't work as a strategy. And so we can
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: see how really challenging topics am I for more immigrants.
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: Am I for less immigrants? Am I for whatever is
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: my motivation? How I look at immigration and legal and
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: illegal immigration in the US, for example, because it's so hot,
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: but also at COVID globally, like how we dealt with
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: the pandemic, and how people started hating each other for
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: wearing masks, not wearing masks for this, And of course
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: they are all, let's say, more superficial reasons at first,
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: but when we go deeper, we see it's actually the
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: inability to stay related to one another when we have differences.
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: So when the disagreement creates tension and I reject that tension,
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: you become an There you are the other.
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: Well, you're saying that if a circumstance touches on some
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: of that old frozen stuff and a response is to
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: avoid or suppress, you're saying that turns into rejecting or
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: vilifying another person is part of that defense system.
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: Exactly, person or group or part of society. And like this,
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: in a time where the data speed of life becomes
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: faster and faster. As we are having this conversation here,
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: the world became faster. It's very important. And sometimes when
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: you're in a car that accelerates in a coherent way.
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: More and more you don't feel the acceleration. Only when
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: you push the gas very strongly, then you feel, well,
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: it's But if it's the same acceleration going on to it,
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: it actually feels like it's just we're driving. But then
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: I look at the speed and I see, wow, actually
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: we're driving is very clamatous per hour. And so the
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: data speed, since it's growing all the time, it's the
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: world's getting faster. So our nervous systems, plus our collective
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: nervous systems, need to be able to process more material
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: in a shorter time. And I think the combination between
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: the data speed and the unresolved individual ancestor collective trauma
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: creates a lot of heat and amplifies on social media,
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: media and the political sphere in society, the valleys between
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: us where these collective defense mechanisms reside that we don't
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: see that we grew up in. The important thing with
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: collective trauma is to know it's the water that we
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: grew up in. It's like we grew up in a
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: world that was already collectively traumatized before we landed, so
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: we grew up in it. And for us, that's normal.
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: It looks like, ah, that's the world. And I would say, no,
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: some of it is emergent world, and some of it
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: is the world when it's hurt. But since I don't
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: know that that was the hurt of the Civil War
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: or racism and slavery or the Holocaust, I just grew
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: up in it. I grew up in Vienna, and I
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: asked myself very often, well, it's heavy. Something is heavy.
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: And I didn't know as a child what I was
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: pointing to. Now I know much more. I've seen so
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: many groups going through these processes. I understand now what
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: I felt as a child. But I felt there's something
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: like as if there is a blanket on everything and
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: I on top of everything. But I couldn't fully I
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: didn't understand, but I felt something that I couldn't make
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: sense of only later. And I think there are more
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: such experiences that people have where we feel it is
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: the collective atmosphere has a certain quality. But since it's
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: so normal, because we grew up in it feels like
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: that's how the world feels.
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: Right when then question yourself, what am I sensing? What
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: am I experiencing? Because it doesn't make rational sense, but
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: it's like you're getting information from other sources and so
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: Vienna it's so close to the source there that you
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: felt that, but it was like what is this? And
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: I'm also hearing you say that we are being influenced
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: by just the sheer volume of information that we have
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: to sort through and filter and synthesize and make sense
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: of because you're right, it's coming so fast and there's
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: so much of it, and that because of this, it
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: is like triggering these defenses that lead us to reject
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: and become more polarized and triggered. But like they try
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: to manage those triggers, they're all these weird coping mechanisms
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: and that's a lot to sort through. It really is.
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: It really is. Wow, it really is. And even like
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: with climate fears, I think that because of them, because
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: of the acceleration of data, an integrated nervous system can,
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: at least in my understanding, an integrated nervous system can
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: update itself and adapt itself to the developmental process of
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: the world, so we can grow with the world that
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: is growing. But where I where parts of me in
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: the freezer. They don't want to learn, They cannot learn
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: actually because trauma are stuck. So trauma is a non
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: updateable area in my experience, in my inner world and
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: in our inner world too. The collective trauma that we
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: didn't digest yet is frozen. It cannot be updated. It
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: still lives like two hundred years ago, but in a
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: world it becomes so fast and AI and technology, and
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: it bumps against these invisible structures in the collective unconscious.
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: That creates a lot of heat and pressure. And then
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: we see the symptoms on the surface of the society
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: and we see these sometimes even ridiculous conversations that we say,
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: how come that that's the level how we try to
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: solve certain things? Yep, But if we knew that there
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: are two hundred years in between some of that where
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: the conversation comes from and where we're having it is.
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: But we often we cannot make this because we don't
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: experience it that way. So it's it's becomes theoretical. But
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: I think that's very important. And then when the speed grows,
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: the detox, like how life needs to detox these old
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: structures in order to be able to keep up with
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: the evolutionary pace. I think, as you said, brings a
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: lot of things up some of them are individual, some
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: of them are collective archaeological layers like layers in society
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: that show up through us. And that's why I think
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: that's also very interesting for anybody who does therapy. It
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: goes to therapy. Some of it is individual, but some
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: of it are also the collective detox mechanisms of fears
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: and is it in the the generation that says is
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: it really worth living? And what is my future? And
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: do we have a future? And climate anxieties and all
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: kinds of collective anxieties. I think it's very very complex
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: to show through.
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: Well, I've heard it said that you know, the youngest
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: generations like gen Y, gen Z, they are experienced that
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: like existential angst. Right, why do I even want to
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: participate in any of this? And just in this conversation,
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: like there really is objectively a lot and it's sort
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: of like all kind of coming into seeing the dysfunction
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: in a lot of different places in the world, and
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: a lot of things are feel broken and kind of
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: like a mess. And so maybe this is a nice
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: place for us to pause again. And on the other
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: side of this next break, I would love to get
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: your thoughts and feelings about where we go with this,
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: what do we do? What does the work look like?
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: And your thoughts about the path to healing like individually
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: and collectively? Is that? Okay? That's the beast we all need.
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: Daily rituals Ocia Skincare is part of mine. I use
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  Speaker 1: Go back through my feed for these episodes. Episodic fasting
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• 59:24
  Speaker 1: with doctor Thomas Hubel, who is the author with along
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: with doctor Richard Swarts, of a new book called Releasing
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: Our Burdens, which is exploring how we heal individual, collective
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: ancestral trauma to help ourselves and also the world. And
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: so doctor Hubal, we've been talking about some of the
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: just the mess and how this frozen, unmeotabolized or unrecognized
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: trauma shows up in our own lives and in the
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: world around us. And just before the break, as we paused,
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: I was hoping in the next segment you could talk
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: more about your hope or vision or even the work
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: that you are doing to start to heal and correct
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: some of this. We chip away at it.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you. First of all, I'm enjoying this conversation
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: a lot, and I think it's a very resonant space
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: and enjoying this exploration. And I think it starts with
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: a little bit of a.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 3: Like a.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: Reframe of certain things that I would like to do,
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: and then from there to look at, okay, what can
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: we do? One is I believe that a certain capacity
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: of healing is a citizen's responsiblit. So we have been
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: born into a world. Let's say, what the former generations
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: couldn't digest, couldn't integrate is kind of like you wake
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: up in the morning. You had a huge party in
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: your house. Everybody is sleeping somewhere, and you wake up
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: and there's a huge mess in the living room. Yeah,
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: it's a mess, okay. And so either we all say, well,
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: let's move out of this house because it's a mess,
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: or we say let's all clean up this house and
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: make it a nice house again, because we were part
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: of creating this mess. And even if I wasn't really
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: part of it. Yeah, but what my grandparents' experience in
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: the second world affects my life, and if I don't
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: take care of it, I affect my environment through that effect,
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: and maybe I pass on part of it also to
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: my children. So once I understand this, but we we
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: have enough understanding of trauma, of collective trauma that we
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: can say, well, it's like I often compared this to
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: when we delivered babies with our bare hands, and we
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: didn't know that there are germs on our hands, and
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: that's why the mentality rate of a newborn children was
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: very high. Okay it was we didn't know. But once
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: we discovered that washing our hands and disinfecting them and
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: maybe taking gloves makes a huge difference. Once we know it,
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: keep not doing it is not responsible because now we
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: know now we need to do it, and so we
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: know enough about that. We have been born into a legacy.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: That legacy really affects us. It affects how we create
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: societies together and we can do stuff on an expert
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: or professional level. So there are trauma issues or trauma
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: topics or complex PTSD that really needs very trained therapists
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: to take care of it, needs a medical system, a
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: psychological system needs like whatever it needs, it needs that
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: professional help or support and even system to take care
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: of it, no doubt. So yes, and I believe we
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: also need because we cannot work through the intensity of
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: some of the collective trauma that resides in our societies
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: through one on one treatments. That's how possible. Like it's
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: too big, it's too big, it's too big, and it's
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: overwhelming the highly trained professionals to serve the people that
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: really need them. And I think if we combine the
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: highly trained layer in our society that know how to
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: treat trauma, a complex trauma, whatever, and we combine this
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: with an architecture with healing collectives where we say, okay,
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: we come together and we facilitate larger group spaces with
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: with therapists include.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: That alarm, please go, and I'm going to have a
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: few minutes.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: I have a few minutes. This is the pre alarm,
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: and I will stay a few moments and then when
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: it comes, I will go for a few minutes and
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: come back.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: Okay, okay, perfect. So so you're you're saying that the
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: group experience of this where you are coming together as
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: a group to do this work together.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: Yes, that we create healing collectives or even an architecture
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: in our society that does not exist yet that needs
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: to be added to the medical and therapeutic system we
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: have where we develop collective spaces like community spaces, that
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: are dedicated to this healing process where we teach collective
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: skills how we as society can do the cleaning up
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: of our living room together as well, and we bring
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: in teams of therapists into let's say, groups of hundreds
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: of people or like community spaces, and if people need
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: one on one support, they can have it. But we
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: also learning to create these healing environments on a societal
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: level with people first, of course, the people that are
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: the first adapters to this kind of work, and then
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: more and more it becomes a function of the society
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: and that I see, wow, as a mature citizen, part
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: of my citizens responsibility is also to help clean up
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: the living room in what I was born into what
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: I bring to the table. And like this, we do ice.
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: We slowly melt the collective unseen, freezing frozen stuff, and
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 2: we let that melt so that we can harvest the
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: enormous energy that is bound in our collective unconscious and
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: use it for development. And I think when we have
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: this fast paced world, a global village falling apart of
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: old identity structures that do not make sense, they made
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: sense evolutionary wise, maybe hundreds of years ago, because that
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: was the time. Then it made sense. But now, as
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: we said plastic, there is no out. We cannot throw
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: anything out anymore because in a global village there is
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: no out. Yeah, now we throw it into the space maybe,
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: and then we will find out that also that is
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: not an out. So that behavior doesn't work. Not cleaning
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: up the living room, just growing the stuff on the
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: street doesn't work. And so we need to find a
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: way to live more sustainably and collaboratively together. And that
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: is also a means that we heal together, and that
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 2: healing becomes a collective capacity, and for more complex and
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: difficult things to heal, of course, we need professional support.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: And I think if we combine these tool we have
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: much more attraction to deal with the collective topics and
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: we will see it will facilitate a real societal change,
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: and I think one that fits to the current evolutionary
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: moment where we have large scale problems and climate change wars,
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: like the inequality on the planet, like the mass migration
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: that is awaiting us like just through climate change. Is
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: we have collective topics that point us exactly to that
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: we need collective skill building and collective resilience. And that's
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: why I think this is so important to combine all
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: we know and say, as a mature citizen, I do
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: my piece. I don't need to do more than this,
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 2: but I need to contribute my part.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, even though I didn't make this best, necessarily, I
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: live here and that I need to contribute to the cleanup.
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 1: And what it seems like you're doing with your work,
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: what really it is is that you're shining a light
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: on the fact that we have another problem that maybe
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: we haven't thought about in the same way. Is it
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: in addition to vile unrest or climate issues or political polarization.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: You're pointing to the fact that there is this need
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: for emotional and psychological cleanup that is really at the
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: foundation of creating a lot of these problems, but also
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: currently obstructing the solution to these problems, which is this
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: global collective effort. And so your work is that if
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: we can understand what the work is in a different
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: way and really change the story of what we need
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: to be doing together in order to resolve it, we
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: can start understanding ourselves in the world and doing the
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: work of healing collectively. That will unlock all this emotional
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 1: and psychological energy that we could then apply towards working
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: together to clean the mess. Is that it?
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 2: That's right, that's beautifully said exactly.
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: Wow, Doctriue Devil. Thank you so much for all of this,
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: for your work, for just coming and explaining all of
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: this to all of us, And I wonder if I
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: might need to let you go. As we were chatting
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: before we started recording this episode, you shared you're currently
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: sitting in Israel and have periodic missile incoming missile alarms
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: going off around you. You had a little alert a
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: moment ago, So we probably need to end anyway. But
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 1: like this, I think is an example of your living
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: in the context of this fractured, incredibly stressful context and
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 1: what it does like you're living in it in a
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: very dramatic way right now.
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it really. First of all, it's an
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 2: area here in the Middle East where of course a
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 2: lot of collective trauma happened. But wait a moment, I
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: think I need to go now.
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: Oh should we say goodbye or do you want to
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: come back?
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: Maybe let's say goodbye, but I will come back. Accept
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: something longer happens, and then may take the part about
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: Israel out and we just live in I.
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: Can totally do that. Doctor Thomas your well, it's such
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: a pleasure to speak with you. People want to know
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: more about you and your work. Where do they find you?
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Thomas people dot com. Thomas h u e b
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 2: l dot com is my website. Pocket Project dot org
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 2: is one of our rossrood angios and in Germany. And
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 2: the Global Restoration Institute. Global Restoration dot org is our Washington,
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: DC based more government oriented NGO. We also do collective
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 2: drama work. So yeah, I think through these websites people
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 2: can find out much more. And thank you very much.
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 2: This was a very resonant and beautiful conversation. I brilliant child.
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: What an amazing conversation that was powerful and profound. I
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: learned so much from doctor doms Ruble. I hope you
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: did too, and I'm glad that we you and I
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 1: got to share that experience together. That was fascinating. So
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: certainly get the book, follow doctor Hubal and his work.
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 1: I certainly will be And of course, if you'd like
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: to process any of this and on an individual level,
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: the door is always open for you at my practice,
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: growing Self. Come to growing self dot com to request
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: a free consultation to meet with a clinician of my network,
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 1: talk about where you are on this journey, your hopes,
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: and find out whether or not they're the right person
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: to help you along your way. It's growing self dot com.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: Thanks so much for sharing this experience with me today,
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: and I will be back in touch with you soon
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: for another episode of love, happiness and success. The Joy