Latest / Massive Agent Podcast / How and WHY Big Real Estate Teams Pivot w/ Kevin Kauffman

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How and WHY Big Real Estate Teams Pivot w/ Kevin Kauffman · Massive Agent Podcast

0:00
SPEAKER_01: This week we're gonna dive even deeper on how agents can structure their business in ways that maybe they're not considering because this I'm just so sick and tired of the industry and brokers and team leaders teaching agents that the only thing that matters is how many homes you sell or how much in production.
0:18
SPEAKER_01: It's not okay, because some of the some of those people that sell the most homes and do the most in production have miserable lives and they're depressed or they're broke, they're in debt up to their eyeballs, they never see their family.
0:31
SPEAKER_01: I don't know about you.
0:32
SPEAKER_01: That's not what we're after.
0:34
SPEAKER_01: That's not why we get into real estate.
0:36
SPEAKER_01: We get into real estate for freedom, we get into real estate for uh, you know, for no limit on our income.
0:42
SPEAKER_01: We're in real estate to make a difference in people's lives, but so many of us have gotten away from that.
0:48
SPEAKER_01: So today I'm bringing on a close friend, Kevin Kaufman, co-founder of Next Level Agents.
0:53
SPEAKER_01: They sell a bunch of homes, they sell, you know, three, four hundred homes a year, but they've made some changes just over the last few years in how they structure their team, how they structure their business.
1:04
SPEAKER_01: So get ready.
1:04
SPEAKER_01: This is an amazing conversation today with Kevin Kaufman from Group 4610 and host of the Kevin and Fred Show.
1:13
SPEAKER_02: The massive podcast.
1:20
SPEAKER_00: I love to buy houses.
1:21
SPEAKER_00: I like to sell houses.
1:34
SPEAKER_02: Here's your host, Dustin Braun.
1:39
SPEAKER_01: What is up, everybody?
1:40
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to episode 178 of the Massive Agent Podcast.
1:45
SPEAKER_01: This was an amazing conversation.
1:48
SPEAKER_01: I enjoyed the shit out of it because we talked in depth about a lot of different misconceptions agents have or mistakes that agents are making and how they structure their sales team or their business or their days.
2:00
SPEAKER_01: And and this is just, it was so enlightening to hear from Kevin Kaufman, who, you know, with his group 4610 sales team, they sell three to four hundred homes a year.
2:10
SPEAKER_01: Like they're they're a big team and they've had a big impact on this industry.
2:14
SPEAKER_01: They're well known.
2:15
SPEAKER_01: They're co-founder, him and his partner Fred Weaver, co-founders of the next level agents, and they've made a huge impact on real estate agents.
2:24
SPEAKER_01: But the way that they that they run their business and structure it today is different than it was three or four years ago.
2:30
SPEAKER_01: And that's what we're talking about is how is it different?
2:33
SPEAKER_01: Why is it different?
2:34
SPEAKER_01: What changes did you make?
2:35
SPEAKER_01: Like what did you see is better?
2:38
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, what should other agents be looking for?
2:40
SPEAKER_01: So if you are somebody who's brand new as a realtor, or you're you've just been getting started a year or two, three in, and you're trying to figure out, you know, how do I get to that next level?
2:51
SPEAKER_01: Or even if you're somebody who's just burned the hell out, you're selling as many homes as you can possibly handle, and you're like, something's gotta give.
2:59
SPEAKER_01: I can't keep doing this shit because it's burning me out.
3:02
SPEAKER_01: I don't have time for my family, I don't have time to eat lunch for God's sakes.
3:05
SPEAKER_01: And look, I relate to that.
3:07
SPEAKER_01: I've been there, I I have days like that, I've definitely had days like that in the past, and it doesn't have to be that way.
3:14
SPEAKER_01: Kevin and Fred have it figured out and they're doing things in a very, very big way.
3:19
SPEAKER_01: And I just enjoy the shit out of the conversation.
3:21
SPEAKER_01: I hope you guys do.
3:22
SPEAKER_01: Uh I hope you guys do too.
3:24
SPEAKER_01: If you are new to the Massive Agent Podcast, welcome.
3:26
SPEAKER_01: My name is Dustin Brohm, your host.
3:28
SPEAKER_01: I am the co-founder of the Industry Syndicate Podcast Network.
3:31
SPEAKER_01: This show is a proud founding member of the Industry Syndicate Podcast Network, and I'm also the founder of the Massive Agent Society lead generation and uh lead generation and social media coaching program over at MassiveAgent Society.com.
3:46
SPEAKER_01: Uh but ultimately I'm a real estate agent.
3:48
SPEAKER_01: I have been for over 10 years now.
3:50
SPEAKER_01: I'm in Salt Lake City, Utah, and and right now I have a team.
3:54
SPEAKER_01: I say that with quotes around it, uh, a team of 140, sorry, 154 agents from around the country and even some in Canada, structured very differently than your typical sales team.
4:06
SPEAKER_01: Um I structure it a certain way because of other options that are out there now that that agents can do uh or agents can take advantage of rather.
4:15
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'm having a blast doing it.
4:17
SPEAKER_01: So this is coming from my perspective as a marketer who sells homes, but also somebody who figured out how I can build a team and help others sell a shitload of homes while maintaining the lifestyle that I want.
4:30
SPEAKER_01: And you guys have noticed a trend here on the show.
4:32
SPEAKER_01: Like this is um, first off, I get a lot of questions from you guys who want to know more, and that's why we keep doing this.
4:38
SPEAKER_01: But I also think it's so important, especially in today's market, where agents are just burned out.
4:46
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're just burned the hell out, making offer after offer after after offer after offer.
4:51
SPEAKER_01: And then maybe your clients give up and they decide to sign another lease for a year and wait.
4:56
SPEAKER_01: And it's just one of those markets.
4:57
SPEAKER_01: It's crazy.
4:58
SPEAKER_01: But uh, there are people winning, there are people growing, there are people doing uh better than ever, and uh while still having time to do the things that they like to do and uh you know spend time with their family.
5:10
SPEAKER_01: Kind of important.
5:11
SPEAKER_01: Kevin Kaufman's one of those people, somebody he's somebody that I've uh he's become a close friend, really knows his stuff as a as a realtor, um, runs a team in what, four or five different states now, uh, and and they're doing it at a high level.
5:27
SPEAKER_01: So I'm grateful for him to come back onto the show.
5:29
SPEAKER_01: This is his second time on the Massive Agent Podcast.
5:32
SPEAKER_01: The first time we were talking about iBuyers, and that was a really educational conversation as well, but this is totally different today.
5:40
SPEAKER_01: Um, we just finished recording it, and I uh I'm so excited to let you guys hear it in a sec.
5:46
SPEAKER_01: It's just uh it was a great, exciting, and interesting and enlightening conversation.
5:52
SPEAKER_01: I enjoyed it a lot.
5:54
SPEAKER_01: Let's get into it right now so you guys can hear what I'm talking about.
5:57
SPEAKER_01: Kevin Kaufman, co-host of the Kevin and Fred Show, co-founder of Next Level Agents, and co-founder or co-team leader or whatever the hell of Group 4610.
6:08
SPEAKER_01: Let's do it.
6:10
SPEAKER_01: What's up, guys?
6:10
SPEAKER_01: I'm here with Kevin Kaufman, the co-founder of Group 4610 and co-host of the Kevin and Fred Show podcast, and one of the one of the better leaders in our industry who walks the walk.
6:24
SPEAKER_01: And the reason why I'm having you on, Kevin, is you guys have set a great example of you know how you can structure your business to have a lifestyle and an income that you want that isn't necessarily what the industry tells you you want, you know, that you need to do.
6:39
SPEAKER_01: So I'm I'm excited for this conversation.
6:41
SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to the Massive Agent Podcast for the second time.
6:43
SPEAKER_01: How's it going, man?
6:44
SPEAKER_00: Thanks, man.
6:45
SPEAKER_00: Glad glad to be back.
6:46
SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it and uh stoked to have this conversation.
6:49
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, absolutely.
6:51
SPEAKER_01: So, okay, so three and a half years ago, I uh I switched to exp realty.
6:56
SPEAKER_01: I believe you guys did just prior to that.
6:58
SPEAKER_01: Just after.
6:59
SPEAKER_01: Uh we'll be three.
7:00
SPEAKER_00: Oh, just after?
7:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, June, June 29 uh is when we made the switch.
7:05
SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay, cool.
7:05
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I was in May, and then um I I heard of you guys, but I didn't know you, hadn't met you yet.
7:12
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, well, that's a giant team, and that they have a team in a few different states, and you were with KW at the time.
7:18
SPEAKER_01: And once you came over to exp, it got my attention, as it did the industries.
7:22
SPEAKER_01: You know, Inman did a a piece about your your switch and everything.
7:26
SPEAKER_01: But what I wanted to talk about today is not just I want to talk about how to build the team the way you have, but then how else can you structure it?
7:35
SPEAKER_01: Because you guys, I assume, have made some dramatic changes for the better since leaving KW.
7:40
SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, why would you have left?
7:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, let's talk about that for a second.
7:44
SPEAKER_01: Like for anyone that isn't familiar with with Kevin Kaufman and Fred Weaver and group 4610, you know, kind of describe your team, how is it set up, and let's go from there.
7:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, happy, happy to do that.
7:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, maybe maybe it makes sense to kind of work backwards a little a little bit at first.
8:00
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, Fred and I started working together uh February of 2008.
8:05
SPEAKER_00: So go back, you know, think about the exact the market was like basically the polar opposite of what it is today, right?
8:11
SPEAKER_00: So in Phoenix, I laugh.
8:12
SPEAKER_00: I mean, there was like 55 to 60,000 homes on the market.
8:15
SPEAKER_00: There's like 4,000 homes on the market now.
8:17
SPEAKER_00: And so literally the exact opposite of where we're at today.
8:21
SPEAKER_00: And so we're doing short sales and um we built our business that way.
8:25
SPEAKER_00: A lot of people, you know, that that was hard because you basically, if you weren't doing short sales or REOs, you just you kind of weren't you weren't selling real estate.
8:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:33
SPEAKER_00: And um we cut we built our business kind of uh if you're familiar with the the millionaire real estate agent model, even though we were doing heavy short sales, we kind of built up using that model, right?
8:44
SPEAKER_00: We were very fortunate because we were so giving with our short sale information and uh kind of started teaching and and really launched a video blog in 2009, right after uh Crush It came out.
8:56
SPEAKER_00: Kind of opened up a lot of doors and we kind of had access to all these mentors and stuff we probably otherwise wouldn't have had at had access to so early.
9:04
SPEAKER_00: All that to say we kind of built a very traditional real estate team.
9:09
SPEAKER_00: And um, we were, it's funny you mentioned kind of some of the stuff that we've structured since we've left KW, but we were always searching for that.
9:16
SPEAKER_00: And um, to emphasize that point, except it was a giant mistake, was in 2012, we actually we had a fairly decent sized team, it was growing 2012 to that point was gonna be our best year.
9:29
SPEAKER_00: I think we closed 219 homes that year.
9:32
SPEAKER_00: And Fred and I took jobs to go run a region uh uh for Keller Williams Realty.
9:37
SPEAKER_00: So, like, you know, they had like 20 franchises in Colorado, and so we went to go run that region, and then quickly got reminded why we could never be employees and um and and how we're not good at that.
9:47
SPEAKER_00: And so we quickly, you know, stepped down and went back to running our team.
9:52
SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, it's the end of 2012, the market is has shifted in a big way.
9:56
SPEAKER_00: Um, and we were terrible leaders from that standpoint in our in our business, and everything kind of came crashing down, right?
10:03
SPEAKER_00: But I I just I share that part of the story to go.
10:06
SPEAKER_00: We were looking for something different and better back then too.
10:09
SPEAKER_00: We just we didn't really quite know what to look for.
10:12
SPEAKER_00: Um, so you know, I'll fast forward a little bit here.
10:15
SPEAKER_00: We ended up expanding.
10:16
SPEAKER_00: You mentioned selling real estate in multiple states.
10:18
SPEAKER_00: We ended up expanding into Denver, Colorado in September of 14, and then way beyond Denver and a few other states and cities around the country, and found ourselves just, I don't know, feeling trapped.
10:36
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
10:36
SPEAKER_00: Like we kind of built a business that was like a trap.
10:39
SPEAKER_00: We had made a big shift in our business a couple of times over the years, you know.
10:42
SPEAKER_00: First of all, shifting away from short sales or not really away, but the market shifted away.
10:47
SPEAKER_00: And then um for a portion of time, we ran a model that was like had where we had salaried agents on the team.
10:54
SPEAKER_00: And then we ran a model where we shifted to again, this is kind of the first iteration of us going, well, what do we want from our business lifestyle-wise?
11:02
SPEAKER_00: And I wanted to be further removed from having to sit in anyone's living room ever again to take a listing in order to make money.
11:08
SPEAKER_00: So we kind of went to this like what I call sales agent model, where we let our agents on the team take both buyers and sellers.
11:16
SPEAKER_00: And then that kind of evolved into the expansion thing.
11:20
SPEAKER_00: And then we just found ourselves in the end of 2017 or or actually early 2017, going, not so sure this is this is where we want to be or what we want to do.
11:29
SPEAKER_00: And as you mentioned, uh, or we mentioned earlier 2018, we made the move over to EXP um because we realized the path we were on at KW, um, while great for KW, wasn't so great for us, and it wasn't so great for where we wanted to go.
11:43
SPEAKER_00: And it was um, we were just looking for something different.
11:46
SPEAKER_00: And so we made the move over to EXP.
11:48
SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, we still sell 300 and I don't know, 320, 325 houses this year, mostly in the Phoenix area.
11:55
SPEAKER_00: We still have some expansion, like we still sell real estate in Denver and in Nashville, which were our two first uh expansions, and then also San Luis Obispo, California, where we started selling real estate uh four years ago now, I want to say.
12:08
SPEAKER_00: And so we still have some expansion, but the vast majority of like, you know, 200 of those transactions, maybe 225, will be in the Phoenix area, and the other 100 or so will be spread out between the other three uh cities, but we focus a lot more on growing our um our residual income through revenue share at EXP.
12:27
SPEAKER_00: And still obviously we still sell a lot of real estate, but it's not our main and primary or or sole focus anymore these days.
12:34
SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
12:35
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so a couple points I want to hit on.
12:37
SPEAKER_01: And and guys, I am not having Kevin on to make this like the EXP podcast episode, but I want, I really want everyone listening to understand like what other options are out there so that if that fits what you're trying to build and it fits the lifestyle that you want for yourself and your team, if you have one, you know what other options are out there.
12:57
SPEAKER_01: And and by knowing what other options are out there, I don't see any downside to that.
13:01
SPEAKER_01: So please have an open mind with this.
13:03
SPEAKER_01: Like, stay with your brokerage, do that, that's fine.
13:05
SPEAKER_01: But I want you to at least understand how some other major top producers, you know, selling three to four hundred homes a year, like how they've changed and how they've iterated over the years.
13:15
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes that means leaving your brokerage, sometimes it doesn't.
13:18
SPEAKER_01: It all depends on what you want.
13:20
SPEAKER_01: So please keep an open mind.
13:22
SPEAKER_01: Um the the first the first follow-up question to that, Kevin.
13:25
SPEAKER_01: Like, why uh well, first off, it's interesting that you you are following the path that you thought you had to follow, you know, following the you know the MREA model, then the expansion team model, you know, and KW kind of pioneered that.
13:40
SPEAKER_01: You know, correct me if I'm wrong, but like they they were like hair, hair guys, and didn't they really cultivate it and kind of encourage it?
13:47
SPEAKER_01: But you you went down that path, you start growing, and from the outside looking in, you're probably killing it.
13:51
SPEAKER_01: Like most, you know, the industry is probably like, wow, those guys are dominating, but internally, you're like, we're not too stoked about this.
14:00
SPEAKER_01: Were you following, or at what point did you realize, hey, there's another way, like that there's another lifestyle?
14:07
SPEAKER_01: Uh, we could we could structure our business and our lives this other way.
14:10
SPEAKER_01: Like, when did you guys first realize that maybe you weren't going in the right direction and needed to make a little bit of a switch?
14:16
SPEAKER_01: Like, was there a a certain conversation or a certain pivot point, or was it just like a gradual uh realization of what else you can do?
14:24
SPEAKER_00: Dude, that you know, that's a great question because there was kind of a couple different things.
14:27
SPEAKER_00: Like, so number one, the realization that we needed to leave Keller Williams uh was was one thing.
14:34
SPEAKER_00: Um a lot of my I'm gonna use this term loosely, KW friends who think that we left, you know, their their the story that they've been told or that they that they tell themselves is that we left KW to go to EXP.
14:47
SPEAKER_00: And the truth is we, I mean, we spent a year trying to figure out what we were gonna do next, right?
14:52
SPEAKER_00: Because what we did know is that model didn't actually fit where we thought we were going at the time, right?
14:57
SPEAKER_00: It didn't fit our business model, um and and what we really what our future goals were.
15:04
SPEAKER_00: And so we kind of started looking around.
15:06
SPEAKER_00: Um, EXP came into play, and uh you man, you just made a great point in your kind of uh, you know, in your disclaimer a minute ago about being like we weren't open-minded to it.
15:17
SPEAKER_00: Like we were so this is how slow we are, Dustin.
15:20
SPEAKER_00: Like we were actively trying to leave Keller Williams for nine months, eight months, whatever, whatever April to December is.
15:26
SPEAKER_00: Do that math.
15:27
SPEAKER_00: And Curtis Johnson comes to us and he's like, Hey, I think I'm gonna go to EXP, you guys wanna come with me?
15:32
SPEAKER_00: And no joke, like Fred literally goes, Hell no.
15:35
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, dude, yeah, dude, I I don't I don't think so.
15:37
SPEAKER_01: No, because with their stupid logo, right?
15:40
SPEAKER_00: This is now oh yeah, because I'm so concerned about branding.
15:43
SPEAKER_00: Um but like you know, seven months later we find ourselves at EXP, and in that seven months, I probably cost my that probably cost me like no exaggeration, just in the last three years, three, four million dollars.
15:54
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
15:55
SPEAKER_00: Like when you when you look at all of the opportunity that we missed because of one decision to not be open-minded to explore options and to just listen to what everybody around us was saying about what this opportunity was.
16:08
SPEAKER_00: So, and again, that that's definitely not a pitch here either, but you just you kind of uh brought that up when you asked that question.
16:14
SPEAKER_00: So there was that decision, right?
16:16
SPEAKER_00: So then we finally looked at it, and it's not like we thought, hey, we're gonna come over here, and EXP is gonna be the thing that allows us to be, you know, financially free, if you will, or kind of build the income that we want or the business.
16:27
SPEAKER_00: We just we knew we needed a change.
16:29
SPEAKER_00: It was a better opportunity, clearly.
16:32
SPEAKER_00: And we we believed because of the way the model is set up, we would be compensated at least to a certain level for our contribution.
16:40
SPEAKER_00: We had done a lot at Keller Williams.
16:42
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the other part of that story I left out was owned a franchise for a number of years, turned it around, um, sold it, and I made money, don't get me wrong, but it was like it wasn't the thing, and um it wasn't life-changing money either.
16:56
SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't gonna be anything that changed, you know, future generations.
17:00
SPEAKER_00: And it was, and it was kind of a pain in the ass, to be frank with you.
17:04
SPEAKER_00: So, like we came over and it's just like, well, we've been we've given so much to the industry, um, and and maybe there's a way we can capitalize on that, maybe not.
17:14
SPEAKER_00: But either way, we got to sell real estate, we need a brokerage, and we knew that we didn't want to own our own brokerage.
17:19
SPEAKER_00: And then as we saw it, then it was like, oh my gosh, there's actually a really big opportunity, and we wanted to take advantage of it, right?
17:25
SPEAKER_00: And take it because we felt like um we felt like it was a pretty amazing opportunity, all things considered.
17:33
SPEAKER_00: I knew that people had made, you know, become millionaires through KW's profit sharing, uh, who had joined back in the eight, you know, in the 80s and early 90s, late 80s, early 90s.
17:44
SPEAKER_00: I knew that some of those people had become millionaires through that, um, when it was like really actually still an opportunity there.
17:50
SPEAKER_00: And so I was like, okay, the EXP is still relatively small, and it still is.
17:55
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you and I recording this today, there's only 50,000 agents in North and in the US, you know, maybe 55 worldwide.
18:02
SPEAKER_00: So it's still relatively very small with a huge opportunity in front of us.
18:06
SPEAKER_00: And we just went, oh, we could do something there.
18:08
SPEAKER_00: I think I think we could do that.
18:09
SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, as we got here, then I think it was like a series of things that happened that have helped us re-sort of imagine our business and what it's like and to help us build it closer to what it is that we're looking for.
18:23
SPEAKER_01: So once you guys came over, was it the business model that made all the difference?
18:28
SPEAKER_01: Or was it that in combination with the you know, other people you you're now financially aligned with that can kind of like help guide you to to build what you guys are trying to build?
18:37
SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, what why couldn't you have done that at KW?
18:44
SPEAKER_00: So the answer to the first part of that question is both, right?
18:47
SPEAKER_00: So it's it's it's both.
18:49
SPEAKER_00: Um, this the answer to the second part of that is sometimes I got I hate to say this because it's gonna sound so airy fairy.
18:58
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you need to change the scenery.
18:59
SPEAKER_00: Like I'm a I'm a big sports fan, right?
19:02
SPEAKER_00: I love sports.
19:02
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes you'll see a guy get traded, you know, or sign a free agent deal with another team and they flourish, right?
19:08
SPEAKER_00: It's a change of scenery.
19:10
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so from like just I'm just now right now, I'm just talking about our sales team, okay?
19:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like from our from our sales team perspective, it was that for us because we got rid of the the the corporate red tape, we got rid of the um the obstacles that come in.
19:26
SPEAKER_00: This is not a KW thing, this is a franchise thing.
19:29
SPEAKER_00: We got rid of the obstacles that come along with the franchise system, and that allowed our business to sort of number one, it took some tension off of it.
19:39
SPEAKER_00: Number two, it uh instantly made it more profitable, uh, not just for Fred and I, but actually mainly for the agents working in our business.
19:48
SPEAKER_00: And then it allowed us to kind of sit back and go, oh, okay, and sort of reimagine what it could look like.
19:54
SPEAKER_00: And then we started to evolve it.
19:56
SPEAKER_00: And I'll I'll say I always give credit to to Glenn and uh for forcing the conversation of having a virtual brokerage because I mean, until 2018, I was like a dude, I want to see your butt in the office every day.
20:08
SPEAKER_00: Like we're practicing scripts, we're making calls from the office, and then go out and do things.
20:13
SPEAKER_00: And then it was kind of like, well, dude, if I'm a part of a virtual brokerage, I mean, I maybe I should just sort of behave that way.
20:19
SPEAKER_00: And so we sort of loosened up on that, right?
20:21
SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna tell you this because I think it's real easy, especially for for my friends uh still at KW to go um, oh, production goes, you know, they left because they weren't making any money or production's down when you leave and go to go to an EXP.
20:37
SPEAKER_00: I mean, technically we're selling more houses uh or see, I'm sorry, fewer houses today than we did at our best year ever.
20:42
SPEAKER_00: And we're also making more money than ever, keeping more money than ever.
20:46
SPEAKER_00: And our business, and I'm just talking the sales team here, not talking revenue share, I'm not talking stock, I'm not talking about the other things that come out of this company.
20:56
SPEAKER_00: Our sales team is the best it's ever been by a mile, by a mile.
21:00
SPEAKER_00: It's not even close.
21:02
SPEAKER_01: What do you think is is a is the biggest contributor to that?
21:06
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think the change of scenery, that's a real thing, you know.
21:09
SPEAKER_01: Like I work from home, you know, in this little basement office that I have here.
21:14
SPEAKER_01: But what sometimes I need to get out of the house and go to go to a coffee shop or go to the Regis office, you know, and chill at the lounge for a minute.
21:22
SPEAKER_01: And just the change of scenery can help refresh.
21:25
SPEAKER_01: And and so I know what that is.
21:26
SPEAKER_01: And like if you move from one house to another, like that changes everything about your life, you know, just that change of scenery.
21:33
SPEAKER_01: So it's the same concept.
21:35
SPEAKER_01: I I I don't I don't want to minimize that, but um I think that and I want to hear your answer, but it sounds like by let me back up so many team leaders are focused on, you know, how do I do more?
21:51
SPEAKER_01: How do I do more?
21:52
SPEAKER_01: How do I do more?
21:53
SPEAKER_01: And there's not much thought or not enough thought to what's best for the group.
21:58
SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, how can I help my Agents to have the lifestyle they want.
22:02
SPEAKER_01: How can I give them more options to build wealth?
22:04
SPEAKER_01: How can I, you know, so you know, take it from there, man.
22:09
SPEAKER_01: Like, what what was it do you think?
22:11
SPEAKER_00: That's a great thing.
22:11
SPEAKER_00: So I'll tell you, um, we had some guidance along the way in sort of that year of discovery of figuring out what we were going to do post-KW.
22:19
SPEAKER_00: And one person gave us some great advice.
22:21
SPEAKER_00: He's like, you know, think of it as like a marriage, right?
22:24
SPEAKER_00: So you you're good, you're looking for your forever spouse.
22:27
SPEAKER_00: Like, what are the have to haves?
22:29
SPEAKER_00: And so we, I mean, we really like we we would we wrote down the couple have to haves in a new brokerage.
22:34
SPEAKER_00: And one of those is our agents had to keep more of the money they were making.
22:37
SPEAKER_00: That was an absolute, like, that was an absolute must-have.
22:41
SPEAKER_00: Now, there's other ways to do that.
22:42
SPEAKER_00: We could have gone to the low rent, low cost, sort of small transaction fee model, but we know that that doesn't provide the opportunity as well.
22:51
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, one thing I'm a firm believer in this may not be that popular, um, but in every business, there's a there's a decision maker.
22:59
SPEAKER_00: In our business, there's you there happens to be two.
23:02
SPEAKER_00: And it's I always want to consider and I am always thinking about what's best for the people who trust us to lead them.
23:10
SPEAKER_00: And I'm going to make the decision at the end of the day because I we I am the one who's writing the check to pay the bills every month, right?
23:17
SPEAKER_00: Right.
23:17
SPEAKER_00: And and so um I believed through EXP's opportunity with the stock uh and the revenue share for some that worst case scenario, our agents would keep selling a lot of real estate and be better positioned in life financially a couple years down the road.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: Three years in, I I'm more right than I expected to be.
23:40
SPEAKER_00: Not because of anything I've done, but just because I saw it, I knew it would work, I believed in it, and I, you know, fortunately had enough people that believed in me to kind of follow along.
23:49
SPEAKER_00: That said, what I didn't do, I want to be really clear about this.
23:53
SPEAKER_00: I didn't go to my team and go, this is what we're thinking about doing.
23:56
SPEAKER_00: What do you think?
23:57
SPEAKER_00: It was more of a I vetted this.
24:00
SPEAKER_00: We made Fred and I made the decision, and then we went to our key people and said, Hey, here's what we think.
24:06
SPEAKER_00: What do you think?
24:07
SPEAKER_00: Let them share that.
24:08
SPEAKER_00: And then ultimately went to the other folks in our in our business and said, What do you think?
24:13
SPEAKER_00: Um, and by the way, the people that didn't like it, they didn't come.
24:17
SPEAKER_00: And that's totally okay.
24:18
SPEAKER_00: That I'm like, I was okay with that.
24:20
SPEAKER_00: Um, they were okay with that.
24:22
SPEAKER_00: And the people that trusted me from day one and still do, I can't do Dustin.
24:29
SPEAKER_00: I get thank yous constantly from people in my world who have been with us.
24:34
SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, we our retention is so high now compared to what it was like in the KW days.
24:38
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and not a shot at KW, but just the model overall, that it's more conducive to us keeping our team together.
24:45
SPEAKER_00: I get so many unsolicited thank yous for quote, having the courage to make the change.
24:51
SPEAKER_00: Like they all know, like we were in Gary's top 100 and Gary's pirate mastermind group and had full access to Gary Keller at any time.
24:58
SPEAKER_00: He's our mentor for like 10 years, and that was valuable to a certain point.
25:02
SPEAKER_00: And then it wasn't valuable enough anymore.
25:04
SPEAKER_00: And but so, but it was still kind of like we realized what we were walking away from.
25:10
SPEAKER_00: And and so there's a lot of like unsolicited thank yous because you've changed the future for my family from, and it's not again, it's nothing I did other than make a decision.
25:19
SPEAKER_00: Then they had to make the decision to trust me and Fred, and then it things worked out, right?
25:25
SPEAKER_00: And so um, yes, you gotta we've gotta think about those people who trust you, and you've also at the same time, you've got to trust in your ability to make the decision that's best for you and your business and and then move forward from there.
25:42
SPEAKER_01: I want to kind of switch it up and ask you um an interesting question.
25:47
SPEAKER_01: So if you guys what would you have done?
25:51
SPEAKER_01: Like, what would you have changed had you not chosen EXP and you decided to go independent or to some other brokerage?
25:57
SPEAKER_01: Once you guys had kind of hit that that wall where you're like, we we have to do something different.
26:02
SPEAKER_01: What are those things that you would have done differently?
26:04
SPEAKER_01: If it you're not at EXP, like you know, what are some of the changes you would have made?
26:08
SPEAKER_01: Because I I want this to be super helpful for anyone who's currently running a team that loves where they're at.
26:12
SPEAKER_01: It makes sense for them, but maybe they just don't know what some of the other possibilities are for their business.
26:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:18
SPEAKER_00: So the things we really explored were going independent, which we realized just was never really part of our dream.
26:25
SPEAKER_00: Like that was a drag.
26:26
SPEAKER_00: We actually started going independent and then stopped.
26:29
SPEAKER_00: We created really we created entities in different states, actually, two of the brokerages up and running, and we're just ready to move over.
26:35
SPEAKER_00: And then we're like, whoa, stop.
26:37
SPEAKER_00: This is not, this just doesn't feel good, right?
26:39
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't feel like what we really want.
26:42
SPEAKER_00: Um, the other that said, we explored most other big brands.
26:47
SPEAKER_00: Um, but because of our have-to-haves, most of them didn't fit.
26:53
SPEAKER_00: Our our half-to-halves were it needed to be one brokerage per state because of our expansion model at the time.
26:59
SPEAKER_00: It needed to put more money in our agent's pocket, um, like meaning they just need to keep they needed to be able to keep more of the money they were generating.
27:08
SPEAKER_00: And then um number three, it had to be something that we could be left alone and autonomous, and we could plug in when we wanted.
27:17
SPEAKER_00: So those were like the three key criteria.
27:19
SPEAKER_00: And at some point, you know, everybody was disqualified from that, except for exp.
27:26
SPEAKER_00: And and it, and so we just that's the that's the route we went.
27:32
SPEAKER_00: We probably would have ended up at like um probably just the lower cost, what I call like section eight, uh, or rent controlled uh brokerage because it's cheap.
27:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like like low fat flat fee.
27:48
SPEAKER_00: We would we probably would have ended up in a rent control brokerage for sure.
27:52
SPEAKER_00: Um, and but you know, ultimately, obviously uh we didn't.
27:57
SPEAKER_01: So, what is it about independence, you know, starting your own brokerage that that you like you were about to do it, you did start doing it.
28:06
SPEAKER_01: Why was that not the right way to go?
28:09
SPEAKER_00: Uh a combination of risk and it and expense.
28:12
SPEAKER_00: So, like the risk of being of being the brokerage owner, first of all, anybody who's ever owned their own brokerage knows that they they do take on an incredible amount of risk for the activities of other people.
28:25
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'm always like uh okay, the risk, I'm okay with risk.
28:29
SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm pretty, but the but the reward has to be a certain proportion, right?
28:33
SPEAKER_00: And so it just didn't, it just didn't.
28:36
SPEAKER_00: And like I'm never uh it's gotta be my name on the sign type of guy.
28:40
SPEAKER_00: In fact, my name's never been on the sign, right?
28:42
SPEAKER_00: Except for like my first three or four real estate signs ever when I first got licensed.
28:46
SPEAKER_00: So um it was never like an ego thing of like it needs to be my brand.
28:50
SPEAKER_00: Um but so I would say the cost, the risk, and then more than that, kind of like the um how hard it would be to just kind of manage that.
29:02
SPEAKER_00: Like it was hard enough running an expansion team inside of someone else's system.
29:05
SPEAKER_00: So a whole other level of like now we're gonna own the brokerage in these other states, and it just wasn't worth the headache at the end of the day.
29:12
SPEAKER_00: It just seemed like way more trouble than it was worth.
29:15
SPEAKER_00: So I mean, that was the thing where we went, like, hold on, what what are we doing?
29:18
SPEAKER_00: Why are we doing this?
29:19
SPEAKER_00: You know, we realized we were doing it because we were running away from something we didn't like, not because we wanted to do that.
29:25
SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
29:26
SPEAKER_01: It you know, when I first got into real estate, I this was before teams really became a thing in in what like the the early 2010s, that uh I thought that literally the path to success was sell a bunch of homes, become a broker, then start your own brokerage.
29:45
SPEAKER_01: And and so that's what I was moving towards.
29:47
SPEAKER_01: And then KW really starts to teach the industry about the team structure.
29:51
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, wait a minute, that's that's better because I then I don't have to have my own brokerage.
29:56
SPEAKER_01: I can let the brokerage handle the legal, all you know, the payroll, all the bullshit, all the liability, and then I can just focus on sales.
30:03
SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, everyone's heard me say this before.
30:06
SPEAKER_01: Then I realized the revenue share uh structure of EXP made me realize I don't even need a team or I don't need to manage people, I don't need to provide leads for them.
30:15
SPEAKER_01: I just need to be a support, a mentor, and a coach to help them crush it.
30:20
SPEAKER_01: Um, but the so that fits for me.
30:23
SPEAKER_01: Um, it is very interesting to hear that that I mean you guys came to the same conclusion that many independent brokers have.
30:32
SPEAKER_01: You know, they realize, and correct me if I'm wrong here, too.
30:35
SPEAKER_01: I there's a lot of people out there that have their own brokerage because they want to they want to call the shots, they want ownership, they want their name on it, and that's totally fine, but can't they still retain full ownership of the whole deal, just outsource the bullshit, outsource the the time consuming expensive stuff?
30:54
SPEAKER_01: Like I think that's the misconception, right?
30:56
SPEAKER_01: Is if you if you close down your independent shop and join a brokerage, that you lose control or ownership.
31:03
SPEAKER_01: But is that true?
31:04
SPEAKER_00: No, you I mean you really don't.
31:06
SPEAKER_00: Uh I mean, I I'm sure in some scenarios you probably do, especially in like a franchise system or more, you know.
31:12
SPEAKER_00: But the the reality is is um like I'm just I will not use any names.
31:18
SPEAKER_00: I got a lot of friends that own that still own uh independent brokers, brokerages.
31:22
SPEAKER_00: Um a lot of the common problems I see uh is they make just enough money where it's okay, but they're addicted to it and they can't take a step back, even though they hate the overhead, they hate the um the risk, they don't think there's any sort of end game to it.
31:39
SPEAKER_00: They realize they're not ever really selling because if they sell, all they're really being done is prepaid with their own money, and then they have to stick around for a few years.
31:47
SPEAKER_00: Like, um, so that like there they all realize the problems for, but for some people, it's it's truly the ego thing, and there's nothing wrong with that.
31:56
SPEAKER_00: And like if it if you insist on being at your name on the sign, that I'm okay with that, but I think that you should be really clear with yourself, at least be honest with yourself about why you're doing that.
32:07
SPEAKER_00: Because, especially in this day and age, to your point, there is no reason to have to uh handle all of that shit, whether you go to exp or not, uh, or a different brand, there's really no reason to do that.
32:18
SPEAKER_00: And um, I just I can't even imagine shouldering all of that at this point.
32:24
SPEAKER_01: Someone someone I really look up to in this industry is Daniel Beer out of San Diego, extremely smart business guy.
32:32
SPEAKER_01: Uh, he just happens to run a very successful real estate team in San Diego.
32:36
SPEAKER_01: And I heard him say that, you know, because he had an independent brokerage, I believe.
32:41
SPEAKER_01: Um, and and he Kyle, Kyle did.
32:44
SPEAKER_01: Kyle Whistle did, Daniel didn't?
32:45
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
32:46
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
32:46
SPEAKER_00: Dan was at Dan was at KW where I was, but he was about to purchase a couple franchises um right before he made the move.
32:53
SPEAKER_00: And then um, but Kyle owned uh Kyle's team basically operated as a brokerage.
32:58
SPEAKER_01: Gotcha.
32:59
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
33:00
SPEAKER_01: So and I've never had my own brokerage.
33:03
SPEAKER_01: I just thought, well, I don't want to be the broker, first of all.
33:05
SPEAKER_01: I do not want to be the broker.
33:07
SPEAKER_01: I don't want the liability, I don't want to have to deal with the payroll and the trust accounts and all the shit.
33:12
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I just want to focus on sales and growth.
33:14
SPEAKER_01: Um, so Daniel Beer was talking about how in this day and age, it's just so damn inexpensive to have someone else, like the company, handle the legal and the payroll and the liability and outsource all the stuff that literally nobody wants to do.
33:31
SPEAKER_01: That that's not why we get into real estate is to do that stuff.
33:34
SPEAKER_01: It's just so inexpensive to have the company handle it.
33:37
SPEAKER_01: So you can just build your team within a brokerage and you still own your team, you still own the LLC or the S-corp, you still have ownership, you still call the shots.
33:47
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so when he said it that way, I was like, okay, I guess that makes sense.
33:53
SPEAKER_01: It so I don't know.
33:55
SPEAKER_01: It's this evolution that's happened over the last 10, 15 years in this industry is really cool.
34:00
SPEAKER_01: And I feel like there's so many that are still just operating the way that it was 15 years ago, not understanding that hey, there are better options out there, there are really good options so that you can define what you want your life to look like, what you want your team to look like.
34:17
SPEAKER_01: And they're just they're why do you think people are so resistant to make a switch and make a change?
34:23
SPEAKER_00: Uh a couple things.
34:24
SPEAKER_00: Number one, we we know what we know, right?
34:26
SPEAKER_00: We get familiar with it.
34:27
SPEAKER_00: Right in some cases, because people we look up to and trust tell us something is one way, and so we just start to believe that we think this one thing is bad because they told us it was bad, or we think this one thing is good because they told us it was good, and I trust them.
34:40
SPEAKER_00: And I don't really ever put on my lens of like, are they saying that because it's true, or are they saying that because it fits their narrative, right?
34:48
SPEAKER_00: So I think you've got a lot of that, and I mean, let's be straight, dude.
34:52
SPEAKER_00: In real estate, even though technology is really becoming a bigger piece of this of our world, um, as an industry, we're still pretty antiquated, right?
35:02
SPEAKER_00: So, and that and that that starts with our thinking.
35:05
SPEAKER_00: And so I I think when you when you look at those factors, I I think that that's a lot of the reason why.
35:10
SPEAKER_00: Like, I one of the things I think about is um, again, going back to another sports analogy, but like if you look at um the NFL or the NBA or Major League Baseball, over the last 10, 20 years, the players have done nothing but get more and more control at a bigger piece of the pie because they've realized how much control they actually have.
35:33
SPEAKER_00: They've realized that while they're the employee, if you will, they actually are in way more control than they ever knew.
35:43
SPEAKER_00: And so what you've seen is they continuously take more and more.
35:47
SPEAKER_00: Every time there's a new bargaining and agreement, they take more and more of the money and more and more of the power.
35:52
SPEAKER_00: And they can do that because they bring that much to the table.
35:56
SPEAKER_00: Like, uh, so I'm not here to say, you know, I could actually, you know, I could argue that all day long because I love the business of sports, but my point here is that they've realized that they have more power.
36:06
SPEAKER_00: Think about it this way.
36:08
SPEAKER_00: And I know you know this, I've never said this to you before, but uh I'm gonna look real real live here, Dustin.
36:13
SPEAKER_00: Like, have you ever talked to an agent about coming to EXP?
36:16
SPEAKER_00: They said yes, they went back to their brokerage, and their brokerage made them such a sweet deal that they stayed there.
36:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yes or no?
36:23
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
36:24
SPEAKER_00: That's happened, right?
36:25
SPEAKER_00: Multiple multiple times.
36:26
SPEAKER_00: I I've lost count of how many times it's happened.
36:29
SPEAKER_00: Here's the question I have.
36:31
SPEAKER_00: In most cases, it's they're willing to take a loss.
36:34
SPEAKER_00: Like it's not just like, hey, come back, you could be here for free for a year or two, but like I'll also pay for this and that, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
36:40
SPEAKER_00: Here's my question.
36:41
SPEAKER_00: If that broker or that brokerage or that franchise is willing to take a loss on you, they're willing to spend$15,$20,000,$25,000 of either actual cash or lost revenue in order to keep you in that building.
36:57
SPEAKER_00: What does that tell you about the value that you have as an agent or broker in that in that in you in your local community?
37:05
SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
37:05
SPEAKER_01: Great point.
37:07
SPEAKER_00: It tells me that it's a lot, like that's a that's a lost leader for them.
37:10
SPEAKER_00: Hey, if I can retain Dustin, then all of the other people he has some influence with in the office, they're not gonna leave me.
37:17
SPEAKER_00: They're gonna stay because Dustin stays, right?
37:20
SPEAKER_00: I mean, they used to on at KW, that I mean they used to teach on the other side, like when you go to launch a new brokerage or a new franchise, you build around what they call a core group, right?
37:29
SPEAKER_00: And they've got to be these agents.
37:30
SPEAKER_00: Um, we didn't use the word.
37:32
SPEAKER_00: I my first the first uh guy that was like my the owner, the OP of the first KW I joined, he called it um, you had to be valid, right?
37:41
SPEAKER_00: They had to be valid in the in the local community, right?
37:43
SPEAKER_00: So if you're valid, what that meant is like good reputation, a lot of production, people look to that person, right?
37:50
SPEAKER_00: Because when you have those people in your brokerage, other people want to be there, right?
37:55
SPEAKER_00: And so if they're willing to write you a check or at least like not even receive income for you, so operate at a loss just so you stay there.
38:04
SPEAKER_00: What does that say about the value that they believe you bring if you were to leave?
38:08
SPEAKER_00: Because if they you were to leave, what that means is they understand that us as agents, brokers, or think of it again, going back to my football, basketball, baseball player analogy.
38:18
SPEAKER_00: If we go, we know that other people will follow and we can actually, you know, that like that would actually be good for us and our business just because of the model at EXP versus the current model that we're involved in.
38:30
SPEAKER_01: That's a great point.
38:31
SPEAKER_01: You're right.
38:32
SPEAKER_01: It's it's wild how much money flows upwards out of the average agent's commission, you know, at these traditional brokerages.
38:41
SPEAKER_00: Everybody's part of a revenue share program.
38:44
SPEAKER_00: Every agent and broker in America is part of a revenue share program.
38:47
SPEAKER_00: It just so happens that EXP actually shares that with the agents and brokers, and the rest share it with their regional franchise owners or or just the ownership group, whatever.
38:58
SPEAKER_00: But we're all like, let's be really clear.
39:00
SPEAKER_00: Everybody in this industry is part of a revenue share program.
39:04
SPEAKER_00: It's just that EXP has a bad rap for it because they're actually, you know, giving literally billions of dollars back to the agents.
39:11
SPEAKER_01: Right.
39:11
SPEAKER_01: Uh that's a great point.
39:13
SPEAKER_01: Like, if you're splitting 30% of your commission with the company, where the hell does that go?
39:18
SPEAKER_01: Funny store.
39:18
SPEAKER_00: Funny story.
39:19
SPEAKER_00: Our um, I told you we expanded into Denver in 2014.
39:23
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and this gentleman with this gentleman by the name of Aaron Lobova, great guy, love Aaron's death.
39:28
SPEAKER_00: We're still in business together through EXP, he's running his own team now.
39:31
SPEAKER_00: Um, but right after we left EXP, Gary Keller was trying to recruit him back, flew him to Austin, offered him a lot of money to leave and to go back for the story of like, I don't want to be part of the XP with those guys, I want to be at KW, blah blah blah blah.
39:49
SPEAKER_00: But here's the punchline.
39:50
SPEAKER_00: Here's the punchline.
39:52
SPEAKER_00: Aaron's Aaron could be a little combative too.
39:54
SPEAKER_00: And he was like, Gary kept saying to him, This isn't a one-on-one meeting, like, what is it about exp and revenue shards?
40:00
SPEAKER_00: Just you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
40:02
SPEAKER_00: And every time Aaron would try to answer him, he'd cut him off.
40:05
SPEAKER_00: And at one point, he said to Aaron, it's nothing more, that's just nothing more than a transfer of wealth.
40:11
SPEAKER_00: I was like, Yeah, no shit.
40:14
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
40:15
SPEAKER_00: That's exactly what it is.
40:16
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
40:17
SPEAKER_00: It's that's exactly what it is.
40:19
SPEAKER_00: It's a transfer of wealth from the dinosaurs or the people that got here first and wrote a check and now own a region or own a franchise or own a territory who made it, granted, made a capital risk.
40:31
SPEAKER_00: I am not, I will not take that away from anyone.
40:33
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but like just because you got there first doesn't mean I shouldn't have my opportunity to.
40:40
SPEAKER_01: Great point.
40:41
SPEAKER_01: Uh transfer of wealth.
40:44
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
40:44
SPEAKER_01: Like I mean shit.
40:45
SPEAKER_00: He's the guy that says equal opportunity unequal reward.
40:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:54
SPEAKER_00: You mic drop on yourself, dude.
40:57
SPEAKER_01: Seriously.
40:58
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
40:58
SPEAKER_01: Um wild.
41:01
SPEAKER_01: You talked earlier about the opportunity cost of waiting to switch, waiting to restructure your business, waiting, either waiting or just not making any changes at all.
41:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I I spoke about this on the last episode of the one before that.
41:16
SPEAKER_01: Like that's still a cost.
41:18
SPEAKER_01: You know, if you don't do something, there's still a potential loss or expense or cost to that.
41:25
SPEAKER_01: Um yeah.
41:26
SPEAKER_01: That you have to consider.
41:27
SPEAKER_01: Like if if you're in if you're a serious person, a serious business person, even if you're like a half decent one like me, maybe even less, less than halfway decent at business, you have to consider these things.
41:39
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, when I first saw what was possible at EXP, I waited a year because I I kept telling myself reasons why, oh, I love that, but not right now.
41:51
SPEAKER_01: Because I came from a uh I was at a flat fee brokerage, it was only 500 bucks per deal, and then I had to go to an 80-20 split, you know, up until the cap.
41:59
SPEAKER_01: And it's tough I didn't crunch the numbers on it.
42:02
SPEAKER_00: It's tough to go from Section 8 housing or rent control into buying your first house and making a bigger mortgage payment than you made at your government-controlled rent.
42:12
SPEAKER_00: And that's so so when you move from that model to any split model, even like a KW or or any of the other companies that do splits, like that's a big change, right?
42:20
SPEAKER_00: Because most people are there because they don't find value in anything other than the broker support.
42:27
SPEAKER_00: And and that's just one small part of the overall real estate brokerage, you know, experience.
42:36
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
42:37
SPEAKER_01: It took me a minute, a year, before I understood cost versus value, because I was only focused on the cost of doing a transaction.
42:44
SPEAKER_01: I didn't understand the value that a brokerage can provide because mine didn't.
42:49
SPEAKER_01: I was well, I did get dot loop premium.
42:51
SPEAKER_01: So I did get that.
42:52
SPEAKER_01: Um that is huge.
42:54
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that is definitely huge, man.
42:56
SPEAKER_00: Uh so I'll tell you this too.
42:57
SPEAKER_00: So here's the other thing, and it is kind of like um this kind of goes backwards to to a question you asked about, but it kind of come back around, like why do people like why did it take you a year, right?
43:09
SPEAKER_00: And and why did it take me six months after I heard about it to even look at it?
43:13
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I mean, like once I actually looked at it, I was like, oh, yeah, we're going.
43:17
SPEAKER_00: Like it was it was instant.
43:18
SPEAKER_00: Like we were there in four weeks, like from first considering it to moved.
43:23
SPEAKER_00: And the reality is, is because there's this part that we can't really dive into in this conversation, but it's psychological.
43:31
SPEAKER_00: Like there is so much psychological that won't allow us.
43:35
SPEAKER_00: So, like when we're recruiting, right?
43:38
SPEAKER_00: And it we can be talking about real estate or not, we most people tend to recruit towards the future, like what you could be going for, what the opportunity is, right?
43:47
SPEAKER_00: Like, come to my company and you can have XYZ.
43:50
SPEAKER_00: The problem is that works with such a small percentage of the population.
43:54
SPEAKER_00: What we really have to do first is figure out what is holding them back, why are they in the Current decision because let's face it, most of us are wherever we're at, the job that we're in, the brokerage that we're at, the the profession that we do every day, because one day we made a decision, and that decision was probably after we probably said never again to something else that we never that we don't want.
44:17
SPEAKER_00: Like we got fed up at something, right?
44:19
SPEAKER_00: I got fed up at being an employee, so I decided to become an entrepreneur.
44:22
SPEAKER_00: I got fed up at working for this broker, so I moved to this broker because that was the first one there.
44:27
SPEAKER_00: That's why it's so powerful to just be the second option.
44:30
SPEAKER_00: That's why lenders and brokers are all so great at being the second option because eventually most people will make a move based solely on I'm fed up.
44:39
SPEAKER_00: And so what we have to understand is like there's the psychological impact.
44:43
SPEAKER_00: And like this is where becoming a master recruiter, like the things you have to dive into is psychology is because you've got to figure out what is it, that thing.
44:51
SPEAKER_00: Like you heard the saying, like once you see it, you can't unsee it with the exp model.
44:56
SPEAKER_00: And that's true.
44:56
SPEAKER_00: Anybody that that knows math or has access to a calculator can see the numbers, but the problem is you can't actually see it until you're ready to see it.
45:08
SPEAKER_00: So I could show you the math, I can do the spreadsheets, I can show you what the icon agent is, I can show you all that.
45:13
SPEAKER_00: Or we could I can show you even how another brokerage is just cheaper.
45:16
SPEAKER_00: Maybe there's no upside to it, but it's just cheaper.
45:19
SPEAKER_00: The problem is, is until I address the real issue, which is my identity and the psychology for why I'm even in the decision I made in the first place, there's I can't even have that conversation.
45:29
SPEAKER_00: And that's the real problem.
45:31
SPEAKER_00: So the only thing you can really do is you can either get really great at psychology and kind of figuring that out and and touching on those pain points and helping people move past that, and or you can be the second option.
45:42
SPEAKER_00: And both of those are hard.
45:44
SPEAKER_00: It's long, hard work to change.
45:47
SPEAKER_00: It's like going from uh someone who's only worked with buyers to becoming an amazing listing agent.
45:52
SPEAKER_00: It's a skill you have to add.
45:54
SPEAKER_01: Great points.
45:55
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, for me, I it took me about nine months, maybe a little more, before I really had an open-minded look at what exp was all about.
46:09
SPEAKER_01: And so, like, if you guys are listening and you're looking at somewhere else, um, or or you've been told to look somewhere else and you're just not, what's the downside in looking?
46:19
SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't understand that, but I know that there's psychology at play where we have our team jerseys on, or we're we're busy and we're like, I can't even wrap my head around you know, another client, let alone like switching brokerages.
46:31
SPEAKER_01: Like, I understand that, but this is a real thing.
46:34
SPEAKER_01: You mentioned the opportunity cost that that you had from my best calculations, most of its stock, some of its revenue share.
46:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then you know, there's some in there for how many more homes I would have sold with the tools I have now.
46:49
SPEAKER_01: Waiting that year probably cost me about one and a half million dollars from from my best estimates.
46:55
SPEAKER_01: Easily um, absolutely.
46:57
SPEAKER_01: And so, like it it taught me a very valuable lesson.
47:02
SPEAKER_01: It was an expensive lesson, but an important one that you know, looking at other options is not a negative.
47:08
SPEAKER_01: Like that, that's you should be if you're somewhere and you're happy.
47:12
SPEAKER_01: Well, why not be looking to see what maybe you can incorporate into your current business?
47:17
SPEAKER_01: Maybe you can just learn something from another model that makes what you're currently doing even better.
47:22
SPEAKER_01: Or maybe you realize you're in the wrong seat and should be somewhere else.
47:25
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
47:26
SPEAKER_01: And you don't know.
47:27
SPEAKER_01: I mean, but the only way to find out is to drop your guard, take off your team jersey for a sec, have an open-minded, honest look with somebody, uh, you know, and get some guidance from someone who knows what the hell they're talking about, someone that you look up to and respect, and and look.
47:44
SPEAKER_01: Uh, because you may you may find out that this is this is what's funny.
47:47
SPEAKER_01: People may find out that where they're currently at is actually the best thing for them.
47:52
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, then they're always gonna have that curiosity.
47:54
SPEAKER_01: If they're not looking, they're always gonna have the curiosity like, it is there something better?
47:58
SPEAKER_01: Is the grass greener?
48:00
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it is, sometimes it's not.
48:02
SPEAKER_01: But how the hell do you find out if you don't look with an open mind?
48:06
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
48:07
SPEAKER_00: And if you know who you are and what you're going after, it's not that hard to look and figure out pretty quickly if something is is is in alignment or not with where you want to go.
48:18
SPEAKER_00: It's really not that hard.
48:19
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I mean, that lesson has forced me.
48:22
SPEAKER_00: I've I've definitely become a whole lot more open-minded uh it about my business, and I've just forced me to go.
48:28
SPEAKER_00: Like the question I keep asking myself is why do I think this?
48:31
SPEAKER_00: Like, why am I thinking what I'm thinking?
48:33
SPEAKER_00: Like, why do I say that word?
48:34
SPEAKER_00: Why do I say this thing?
48:36
SPEAKER_00: Or why do I believe why is this really my belief?
48:39
SPEAKER_00: Like, is that belief my belief?
48:41
SPEAKER_00: Or do I just think it is because I heard someone say it, or I heard a lot of people say it over and over again?
48:45
SPEAKER_00: And so I've just I've adopted it as mine, even though I haven't actually critically thought through that.
48:50
SPEAKER_00: And it yeah, it's like to your point, take off the jersey.
48:53
SPEAKER_00: Like the jersey we should all be worried about is the one, it's like the opposite of a sport of a of a of a sports, uh, you know, of a professional athlete.
49:02
SPEAKER_00: It actually should be the one with the name on your back instead of the name on the front, right?
49:06
SPEAKER_00: This should be about your family or you know, whatever your North Star is, and not about the brokerage that is your broker.
49:14
SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm not, dude, I'm not even that way about EXP.
49:17
SPEAKER_00: I love EXP.
49:18
SPEAKER_00: I love everything that's brought to me.
49:20
SPEAKER_00: I believe that Glenn saw something that needed to be different, and he so he created something different.
49:27
SPEAKER_00: He didn't um he didn't say we need to get rid of realtors, he didn't say we need to get rid of brokerages.
49:33
SPEAKER_00: He said this needs to be done differently and he did it and he created something better.
49:38
SPEAKER_00: And I believe that if there was something better than this, Glenn himself would probably be gone because he's not, I don't even think Glenn's attached to it because it's not about the jersey, it's about us as agents and brokers having the best opportunity that is possibly available to us in this industry.
50:02
SPEAKER_00: In an industry full of people that retire or die broke, right, in tax debt with no retirement, like the system needs to freaking change.
50:13
SPEAKER_01: It absolutely does.
50:14
SPEAKER_00: Glenn changed it, yeah.
50:15
SPEAKER_01: And you know, when I've heard this a few times recently.
50:19
SPEAKER_01: When was the last time you were invited invited to a realtor's retirement party?
50:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, it's called the funeral.
50:26
SPEAKER_00: He's like, agents don't retire, they expire.
50:29
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
50:30
SPEAKER_01: And it's yeah, it's wild.
50:32
SPEAKER_01: Um I I hope that everybody listens, everyone listening can can just, you know, be open-minded to what else you could be doing and other ways you can structure your business.
50:43
SPEAKER_01: Find somebody that has a business that you that that you want, um, that they're doing things the way you want, that they have a lifestyle that you want, and and make sure that you really want it, not just what the industry tells you you should want.
50:58
SPEAKER_00: Also make sure you might like if you're gonna model, like I'm a big believer in modeling, right?
51:03
SPEAKER_00: But if you're gonna model someone, like maybe dig past the first layer.
51:08
SPEAKER_00: Like make sure they actually have something that you that you desire.
51:11
SPEAKER_00: Because if you could peel back the onion a couple layers and then go, I still want that, then now you're on to something.
51:18
SPEAKER_00: Now you're on to someone that can help coach and guide you.
51:20
SPEAKER_01: Yes, good great point.
51:22
SPEAKER_01: I mean, the number of homes sold, that's that's like that's that's the first layer.
51:30
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
51:31
SPEAKER_01: And I meet people like this all the time, Kevin, and I know you do too, that they're selling a shitload of of real estate, but they're miserable, they're depressed, they don't have time for their families, they're in debt up to their eyeballs.
51:42
SPEAKER_00: But if you look, oh my god, they sold 700 homes, they their health is shit, their relationships are shit, they work all the time, their business, by the way, so many times is not nearly as healthy as it looks.
51:58
SPEAKER_00: I know I've been in the room with these people, like, and there's been times where we've been there.
52:02
SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm not trying to say I'm above that.
52:04
SPEAKER_00: I'm just saying, like, we've got to ask the those second level and third level questions to get beyond that first layer.
52:11
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, dude.
52:12
SPEAKER_01: I've enjoyed this conversation so much.
52:14
SPEAKER_01: I I think this is gonna be really helpful for at least for those who are looking for better ways of structuring their business and their life.
52:22
SPEAKER_01: Um, I think we accomplished the goal today is just to let people see what else they can do and you know, open their eyes a little bit.
52:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, and like you said, man, like once you see it, you can't unsee it.
52:33
SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's true.
52:35
SPEAKER_01: It look, my mentor, Clayton Gitz, tells me this all the time.
52:39
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I hear him say this to other people.
52:40
SPEAKER_01: He's like, look, if you can show me like a different way that agents can do business, a different structure that's better, I'll go with you.
52:47
SPEAKER_01: Like, I'll follow you tomorrow.
52:48
SPEAKER_01: I'm in.
52:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'll sign up today.
52:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
52:51
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
52:52
SPEAKER_01: It's, you know, it is what it is.
52:54
SPEAKER_01: So having that open mind is absolutely crucial if you really want to have the lifestyle that you, you know, that you seek.
53:03
SPEAKER_01: Uh, not just the income, not just the number of homes sold, because sometimes those are not even that important if you're looking for a certain lifestyle.
53:12
SPEAKER_01: Uh Kevin, I know we got a hard stop here in a sec.
53:16
SPEAKER_01: I want to blow through these rapid fire questions that we do with our guests.
53:18
SPEAKER_01: They're either or questions.
53:20
SPEAKER_01: Pick one or the other, and then we'll wrap it up with letting people know where they can find you and hear your podcast and learn more about how you guys are doing business.
53:29
SPEAKER_01: All right, my friend.
53:30
SPEAKER_01: Facebook or Instagram?
53:34
SPEAKER_00: Oh, Instagram's on my phone, but I prefer Facebook.
53:38
SPEAKER_00: I just can't have it on my phone.
53:40
unknown: Okay.
53:41
SPEAKER_01: Too much of a time stock on your phone?
53:42
SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure I answered that question.
53:44
SPEAKER_01: No, it's it's insightful actually.
53:46
SPEAKER_01: I like it.
53:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
53:47
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so uh Instagram or LinkedIn?
53:51
SPEAKER_01: Instagram.
53:52
SPEAKER_01: Books or podcasts.
53:55
SPEAKER_00: Uh podcasts.
53:58
SPEAKER_01: Podcasts or audiobooks?
54:01
SPEAKER_00: Podcasts.
54:03
SPEAKER_01: iPhone or Android?
54:04
SPEAKER_00: Come on, that's not a real question.
54:06
SPEAKER_00: iPhone.
54:07
SPEAKER_01: There's some weirdos that actually say Android, so it's it's because they're closed-minded.
54:12
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
54:13
SPEAKER_01: Uh Alexa or Google Home?
54:16
SPEAKER_00: Neither.
54:17
SPEAKER_01: Burgers or pizza?
54:21
SPEAKER_00: I I think burgers, but like I can't just can't eat a bun, man.
54:26
SPEAKER_00: Like, bread just doesn't agree with me.
54:28
SPEAKER_00: And so, but I'd still say burgers.
54:30
SPEAKER_00: Maybe a burger like wrapped up in a pizza.
54:32
SPEAKER_00: That sounds good.
54:34
SPEAKER_00: Good god, that sounds good.
54:35
SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure it's out there.
54:36
SPEAKER_00: I just now thought of it.
54:37
SPEAKER_00: I never I've never thought of that.
54:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
54:39
SPEAKER_01: I mean, they have sushi burritos and stuff, and I've seen like donut breakfast sandwiches.
54:44
SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna have to Google search this, Kevin.
54:48
SPEAKER_00: New York or LA?
54:50
SPEAKER_00: LA, despite the fact it's in the state of California, right?
54:54
SPEAKER_01: That is a pretty, pretty major.
54:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know.
54:59
SPEAKER_01: That's a pretty major uh mark against, but uh, I get it.
55:03
SPEAKER_01: Are you from LA or something?
55:04
SPEAKER_00: Like you seemed like northern I'm from Northern California originally, but my dad was a Dodger fan and a Raider fan.
55:10
SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, I just and the like Lakers just came naturally because that's what I got to see when I started liking basketball.
55:15
SPEAKER_00: They were they were the only team I got to watch on TV.
55:18
SPEAKER_00: Love it.
55:19
SPEAKER_01: NFL or NBA?
55:22
SPEAKER_00: NFL.
55:23
SPEAKER_01: NFL or Major League Baseball.
55:28
SPEAKER_00: I can't pick.
55:29
SPEAKER_00: I'm not, I refuse.
55:31
SPEAKER_00: That's like it's like asking me to pick between my kids.
55:33
SPEAKER_00: No way.
55:34
SPEAKER_00: All right, mountains or beach?
55:36
SPEAKER_00: Beach.
55:37
SPEAKER_01: Podcasts or vlogs?
55:40
SPEAKER_01: Podcasts.
55:41
SPEAKER_01: YouTube or Facebook Live?
55:48
SPEAKER_00: Facebook Live.
55:50
SPEAKER_01: Rich Dad, Poor Dad, or millionaire real estate agent.
55:54
SPEAKER_00: Rich Dad, Poor Dad.
55:56
SPEAKER_01: Uber or Lyft?
55:57
SPEAKER_01: Both are great, by the way.
55:58
SPEAKER_01: Definitely.
55:59
SPEAKER_01: Lyft.
55:59
SPEAKER_01: Lyft.
56:00
SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm throwing this in one this one in for you.
56:02
SPEAKER_01: Delta or Southwest?
56:04
SPEAKER_00: Southwest.
56:05
SPEAKER_00: That's come on, that's not a real question.
56:07
SPEAKER_00: Delta, get out of here.
56:08
SPEAKER_00: Southwest.
56:09
SPEAKER_01: I don't know how you fly southwest when when there's Delta.
56:11
SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't get it.
56:12
SPEAKER_01: I I what I I just don't Salt Lake's a Delta hub, so I'm a Delta snob.
56:19
SPEAKER_01: I just uh I don't get the whole Southwest thing.
56:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, bro.
56:22
SPEAKER_00: I don't get the Delta thing.
56:24
SPEAKER_01: Fair enough.
56:26
SPEAKER_01: Gary V or Grant Cardone?
56:28
SPEAKER_01: Gary V.
56:29
SPEAKER_01: Nice.
56:30
SPEAKER_01: And what's the most impactful book you've read in your life?
56:34
SPEAKER_00: Ever?
56:35
SPEAKER_01: Ever.
56:35
SPEAKER_01: In the history of Kevin Kaufman.
56:39
SPEAKER_00: Recently, pondering, yeah.
56:41
SPEAKER_00: Recently, it's average sucks.
56:42
SPEAKER_00: I can't give you one, dude.
56:43
SPEAKER_00: Recently, it's average sucks.
56:45
SPEAKER_00: Of all time, it's either money ball or four-hour work week.
56:51
SPEAKER_00: Followed very closely by the road less stupid.
56:55
SPEAKER_01: Ooh, I don't think I've heard that.
56:58
SPEAKER_01: Who okay?
56:59
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna look that up.
57:00
SPEAKER_01: The Road Less Stupid.
57:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
57:02
SPEAKER_01: Nice.
57:03
SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
57:04
SPEAKER_01: Kevin, where can people find you?
57:05
SPEAKER_01: Where can they uh learn more about you and see what you guys are up to?
57:09
SPEAKER_00: Um, Best Places Our Podcast, the Kevin and Fred Show, or on Facebook inside of our Facebook group called Next Level Agents.
57:18
SPEAKER_00: Um, or on Instagram.
57:20
SPEAKER_00: We just probably just dropped the handle or something in the in the notes, but Instagram, Kevin and Fred or Kevin Kaufman.
57:26
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
57:27
SPEAKER_01: We'll have all of that linked in the show notes or the YouTube description wherever you're listening or watching.
57:32
SPEAKER_01: Kevin, man, I appreciate it so much.
57:34
SPEAKER_01: Uh great conversation.
57:35
SPEAKER_01: I really I learned from it.
57:37
SPEAKER_01: And uh I hope everyone listening did as well.
57:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, man, my pleasure.
57:40
SPEAKER_00: Uh, looking forward to uh to wrapping again.
57:42
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
57:42
SPEAKER_00: All right.
57:44
SPEAKER_00: See you soon.
57:44
SPEAKER_01: Make sure that you guys go follow Kevin, go join his next level agents Facebook group.
57:49
SPEAKER_01: Click into the description on you know wherever you're listening to the show, or if you're watching on YouTube, make sure you go into the description and uh follow him on social, go to the website.
58:00
SPEAKER_01: He's somebody to watch and emulate.
58:02
SPEAKER_01: Okay, we've we talked a lot in this episode in the previous episodes about finding somebody who has a a business and a lifestyle that you actually want, that you actually aspire to, and then doing what they did.
58:15
SPEAKER_01: Kevin is one of those people, you should be doing what he's doing.
58:19
SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, it's kind of hard to go wrong when when when you just model somebody and follow in their footsteps.
58:26
SPEAKER_01: He's an open book and shares all of that stuff.
58:28
SPEAKER_01: So definitely follow him, listen to his podcast.
58:31
SPEAKER_01: Um, I just enjoyed that conversation so much.
58:34
SPEAKER_01: I hope you guys got as much out of it as I did and enjoyed it as much as I did.
58:39
SPEAKER_01: Thank you guys for listening.
58:40
SPEAKER_01: Go close some loans, go sell some homes, have a great weekend.
58:44
SPEAKER_01: Take care.