Latest / The Vance Crowe Podcast / Your Body Runs on Ancestral Time: Modern Life Is Breaking It | Geneticist Kate Crosby

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Your Body Runs on Ancestral Time: Modern Life Is Breaking It | Geneticist Kate Crosby · The Vance Crowe Podcast

• 0:11
  Unknown: Alright. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm glad you're here.
• 0:15
  As many of you that listen to the podcast know, I made some changes back in January because I had
• 0:23
  had kind of a a big health scare, and it's it's gone all the way to the point of it being cancerous and needing to get it removed.
• 0:31
  And a lot of that has prompted me to have podcasts
• 0:35
  where the people I bring on are going to have the kinds of conversations with me that if for some reason something were to happen to me,
• 0:43
  I would want my kids to hear these.
• 0:45
  And, if I'm gonna be saying, hey, dad's leaving something behind for you, although I'm I'm not thinking that I'm going to die from this cancer. But, you know, when you think about your mortality,
• 0:55
  then I wanna bring on people that have really interesting things to talk about and talk as plainly as we can. And that led me to today's guest who is Kate Crosby.
• 1:06
  Kate, welcome to the show.
• 1:08
  Unknown: Hi. Nice to be here. Well and and so
• 1:12
  Unknown: Katie and I talk all the time. Katie is an amazing person.
• 1:16
  From her credentials,
• 1:18
  she is a geneticist.
• 1:19
  She's also an expert in light.
• 1:21
  She does a ton of stuff on light recipes and prompting,
• 1:26
  plants to come to fruit faster. She has all these fascinating ideas. And I talked to Kate,
• 1:32
  almost every day, sometimes multiple times a day about all kinds of crazy ideas.
• 1:37
  So I thought I would bring her on and talk about some of the things that she and I normally talk about in our regular lives
• 1:44
  and and just let you in on it and hopefully create an artifact that if my girls are ever like, oh, I'd love to hear my dad talking to
• 1:52
  godmother Kate. I'd I'm I'm gonna go listen to that. So, Kate, where I wanted to start it with is
• 1:59
  I am
• 2:00
  going through this so I've I got this mass on my neck. They do an ultrasound of it. They're like, oh, that's five and a half centimeters
• 2:07
  big. Then they do a fine needle aspiration and they're like, hey,
• 2:11
  thirty percent chance of malignancy, but we're gonna do the genetics test. Genetics test comes back and they're like, it's only five percent.
• 2:18
  But
• 2:19
  we think you probably should get your thyroid removed. So in one week from today, I'm supposed to get half of my thyroid removed because there's a growth on it.
• 2:30
  What in the world does a thyroid
• 2:32
  do, and what what is the consequence of only having half of one?
• 2:38
  Unknown: So I'm not a human doctor or human biologist,
• 2:42
  but as best as I can tell
• 2:44
  and the reading I've done myself,
• 2:47
  and and some
• 2:49
  previous conditions I've had myself,
• 2:51
  the thyroid is like
• 2:54
  your your clock. It's it's what releases the control hormone
• 2:59
  that kinda tells your other hormones
• 3:01
  what to do. And so it kind of is your way of telling time.
• 3:05
  If you have a lumpectomy or a half lumpectomy,
• 3:09
  you will have to take a drug to help you regulate time.
• 3:13
  Unknown: They told me that I own that that males
• 3:16
  largely don't have to. Something like eighty percent of males, half a thyroid can do it, but I kinda don't believe that. I kinda think, like, once I do this, I'm gonna be on weird medication. So I'll be on synthetic time. How does your how how does your thyroid control time? What does that even mean?
• 3:33
  Unknown: As far as I understand it, it secretes t four. So it doesn't secrete the sex hormones.
• 3:39
  It's like a controller for the sex hormones. So t four gets converted to t three,
• 3:44
  and then that kinda
• 3:47
  kicks off a whole bunch of other things. So that's thyroid stimulating
• 3:50
  hormone.
• 3:52
  And you're right. It depends on how much is removed because sometimes it's fine, and it will continue to secrete at normal levels, in which case,
• 4:00
  you're golden.
• 4:02
  But if not, in general, I think they they have you take a drug
• 4:06
  Unknown: to help you tell time in your body and your hormones to tell time. What does that mean? Like, you mean, like, I know we we sometimes will use melatonin
• 4:16
  to to, like, prompt falling asleep because your body right before you go to bed releases this hormone.
• 4:22
  Is that what you mean? Like, it's it's like regulating when you wake up and when you go to sleep and things like that?
• 4:28
  Unknown: Yeah.
• 4:29
  So it it helps kinda regulate,
• 4:32
  the signals to your your gonads or your testes if you're male and your your ovaries if you're female. And I think,
• 4:41
  there is both diurnal
• 4:43
  cycle there's mostly diurnal cycles for males. And I think for females, it's monthly and possibly also seasonal.
• 4:52
  And so if those levels kinda start to fluctuate,
• 4:56
  you might get things like brain fog or tiredness
• 5:00
  at the wrong times or wakefulness at the wrong times. There are other hormones in the human body that are generic, like cortisol,
• 5:08
  and adrenaline as well. And so
• 5:11
  if that starts to kind of if you find yourself kinda stressed out at the wrong time, that can be kind of like a misfiring of time. You know? So
• 5:20
  I would say it's one of those things that you kinda need to watch. Everybody there's a lot of people that get thyroid nodules.
• 5:29
  I think it's actually really common as you age.
• 5:34
  And so,
• 5:35
  ultimately, it's just kind of a a feeling. Like, am I feeling out of time? I would say, like, am I stressed at the wrong time? Am I not sleeping? Am I having
• 5:44
  Unknown: kind of brain fog because I'm tired? I think, like, the worst thing that's happened to me as an adult, even outside of, like I was in a ton of pain. I had shingles,
• 5:54
  but I was not able to sleep.
• 5:57
  And
• 5:57
  insomnia for four months was terrible. That changed my personality so radically.
• 6:03
  And I've kinda chalked it up to, like, some of the pain meds I was on and and but, like, to think I might be removing my thyroid and this may prompt that sort of thing
• 6:14
  seems really scary. Like, should the the only reason I'm trying to get my,
• 6:20
  surgery in now is,
• 6:22
  you know this, but, like, residents,
• 6:24
  the people that are helping the surgeon,
• 6:27
  like, the they're not they're not quite students anymore. They're, like, they're a doctor, but they're not a full doctor.
• 6:34
  They are, the ones that do the most screw ups. Right? And new residents come in in July.
• 6:40
  And so the reason I'm doing this in May is because if I wait until July,
• 6:45
  now all of a sudden, you're having new people that have never done this surgery and maybe they're only gonna do five in their life before they go on to do, you know, something with a completely different part of the body.
• 6:56
  And, so, like, there's good research and just anecdotal evidence. Like, get your surgery before July.
• 7:03
  But maybe I am rushing it too much because I I I I don't really have, like, a a counterpoint. What would you do if you weren't removing half of the thyroid? Eat more apples or something?
• 7:13
  Unknown: I don't know.
• 7:14
  I don't know the answer. I think,
• 7:17
  it's monitoring your thyroid stimulating hormone and making sure that's normal.
• 7:23
  If it starts to not be normal,
• 7:26
  either either because some of those cells are malignant,
• 7:30
  I I think that's something to kinda follow-up with your doctor and just kinda monitor it every six to twelve months.
• 7:38
  But
• 7:39
  I think it's up to the person too and their family, So I don't wanna
• 7:44
  Unknown: You know, I'm not asking for medical advice. More than anything, like, it's very difficult to learn very much about this. I mean, the only reason I feel like I'm confident at all in it is because of AI. And And you sit there and just keep asking AI questions. But there is a problem with AI. It wants to agree with you, so it'll be like, yeah. I think this is a great idea to get this surgery. And then you're like, why don't you steal, man? And it's like, oh, this is a terrible idea. Don't don't get that surgery. And then you're like, alright. What is the logical thing? And humans,
• 8:13
  there's some amount of logic that is also emotional. Like, alright. Where where are we gonna how are we gonna make this subjective decision?
• 8:20
  Unknown: Yeah.
• 8:21
  Yeah.
• 8:23
  And I don't know where that answer lies, to be honest. You're right about AI. It can be sycophantic.
• 8:29
  It can be really confrontational.
• 8:32
  And you're just kinda like, oh, the where's the gray? Give me the gray answer that I can sort of, think about,
• 8:39
  and that doesn't really exist. And so we use our friends and family members maybe a bit as that influence our decisions
• 8:47
  and maybe our own voice. So it's kind of a gut a gut call at the end of the day.
• 8:52
  Unknown: So, as a function of doing all this, thyroid stuff, I had to go get these blood tests taken. And, one of the things came out that shocked me,
• 9:01
  which is that I'm low on vitamin d.
• 9:04
  And, in you and I's conversations about this, you're like, you know, vitamin d comes if you get enough it's it's like certain types of oils
• 9:14
  and sunlight.
• 9:15
  What does vitamin d do in the body?
• 9:18
  Unknown: Vitamin d,
• 9:20
  I mean, for one thing, it it helps a bit regulate sleep. It does help regulate hormones.
• 9:28
  I didn't know that. It regulates sleep? It helps with immunity,
• 9:32
  the immune system.
• 9:34
  It needs magnesium to be mobile in the body.
• 9:38
  You can get it from sunlight,
• 9:40
  and depending on your Fitzpatrick
• 9:43
  skin type, which is a way of saying how light or dark you are without you know, it's kind of a latitudinal gradient,
• 9:50
  really,
• 9:51
  of where your ancestral population
• 9:53
  kinda comes from on Earth.
• 9:56
  You may only need thirty minutes of sun exposure at a certain age.
• 10:00
  If you're obese,
• 10:02
  typically, you can't absorb as much sunlight.
• 10:06
  So you need to stay you would need either to stay out longer or to get it from dietary sources.
• 10:11
  Unknown: So it's it's it's pretty important. Yeah. Being obese limits how much sunlight you can absorb. What is that? What's up with that? Just that you're fatter? What what's going on?
• 10:22
  Unknown: It's well, it is a it is kind of a fat soluble
• 10:27
  vitamin. So in some ways, you'd be like, well, if they're fat, like, and you're just you know, it's hitting your keratinocytes.
• 10:32
  It shouldn't shouldn't that make more of it.
• 10:35
  And it appears the opposite is true.
• 10:39
  The other thing is I don't know if we exactly know if vitamin d is responsible for a lot of what we see or magnesium is because both are paired. So it's not necessarily,
• 10:50
  it's not just it's not just one thing. It's kind of like a lot of these, vitamins pair with metals. It's very weird. Vitamin c pairs with iron.
• 11:00
  And so if you want iron to be more absorbed, you have to have enough vitamin c.
• 11:06
  Magnesium is kind of weird
• 11:08
  and that it's
• 11:10
  between synapses,
• 11:12
  neuron synapses.
• 11:13
  It is what
• 11:14
  and this is just me reading
• 11:16
  through kind of some AI stuff and trying to map it onto human
• 11:20
  human neurons, and maybe it's over indexing. But
• 11:24
  it basically stops you from overwriting
• 11:27
  crazy memories between synapses.
• 11:30
  So maybe it it in and of itself is a way of conducting time between neurons.
• 11:36
  Unknown: I'm not sure, but it's it's pretty interesting. So you would if you oh, sorry. Well, no. That's this is wild. I I think a lot about time because I I remember reading about if you ask an older person, like, hey. Count off sixty seconds
• 11:52
  and then let me know. And somebody that's 35 or under, the person 35 or under is gonna is gonna get it way more often. You're gonna say, count to 60. You know, tell me when one minute's gone up, and they get it. But the older you get beyond 35,
• 12:07
  the longer you think an an hour or a minute last. So, like, a minute will go and you will have gone for
• 12:14
  I think it's they'll say longer. Right? Or do they say much shorter? I don't remember.
• 12:18
  Unknown: I think it's longer.
• 12:21
  And
• 12:22
  it it's interesting. Our perception of time
• 12:25
  at our different ages,
• 12:27
  it may have to do with how these ions flow between neurons and how quickly,
• 12:33
  those neurons connect.
• 12:35
  I think I was talking to you about something recently and just to let, listeners in.
• 12:42
  So I recently discovered that by doing a lot of exercise,
• 12:47
  you can uncover memories
• 12:49
  that were real, and it it might be from the peripheral nervous system. Like, there's memory storage potentially between neurons that haven't connected in a while, but once they connect, it comes back.
• 13:00
  So I think that's that's pretty interesting.
• 13:04
  Unknown: And that happens as a function of exercise? Like, you go out for a jog and you start remembering things? What does that mean? Intense exercise.
• 13:11
  Unknown: So I think when you're asking a lot of your peripheral nervous system so if I'm trying to get
• 13:18
  my heart rate into the upper zones up upper work zones of, like, zone four, zone five, we call it. So a 160 base pair beats
• 13:28
  per minute, not base pairs, beats per minute,
• 13:31
  and
• 13:33
  you're you're kind of, you know, doing that,
• 13:36
  your nerves are are firing at a they kinda have to fire faster.
• 13:41
  So it's just like, connect connect connect connect connect connect. Connect, connect, move, leg like
• 13:47
  And so you you get, I think, more connection, more electricity being generated in the body
• 13:53
  while doing that.
• 13:55
  Even in terms of watts. Like, you put a power meter on a bicycle, you will see the wattage go up as you
• 14:01
  exert,
• 14:03
  and then your memory start to come back. It's almost like you're an AI data center.
• 14:06
  Just
• 14:08
  shooting in the sugar field. Just
• 14:10
  all your memories start coming back. Not all of them, but, like, it's it's interesting. That's an effect of it. And this was something that you read about and then you experienced, or you experienced and then you went and looked it up? I experienced and then I looked it up. I I remembered
• 14:25
  someone in great detail that was completely inconsequential.
• 14:30
  And I was just like and I remembered the name exactly and the man mannerisms of this person. And I was just like,
• 14:38
  was it was she real? Was this person real? And it was like, yes. Actually, she was. And I was like, oh my gosh. I had completely forgotten about this person.
• 14:48
  And since kind of
• 14:50
  becoming more regimented about exercise,
• 14:53
  Unknown: more memories have started to come back. And it's just it's very interesting. I went and read about it after, but this is a thing. Yeah. I think one of the things that strikes me about your approach lately, you're always dabbling and exploring in different ways of thinking about stuff. But to right now, you're, like, way into time.
• 15:12
  And, like,
• 15:14
  time as a perception or time as a like, how does the human body keep time?
• 15:21
  Yeah.
• 15:22
  Yeah. What what's the what's the interesting thing you've been exploring in in this area lately?
• 15:31
  Unknown: I mean, I think
• 15:33
  time
• 15:34
  for humans,
• 15:36
  I guess, is
• 15:40
  I guess I would view it almost the same way
• 15:43
  as,
• 15:44
  I view plants. So,
• 15:48
  that's kind of can't experience anything beyond where they are. They're kind of they can't move,
• 15:54
  so they're sort of in the ground.
• 15:56
  And
• 15:57
  whatever photo period they get at whatever latitude,
• 16:01
  that's what that's what they have to deal with.
• 16:04
  And so for them, they're very adapted
• 16:07
  typically to photoperiodic
• 16:09
  and energy regimes of where they are, and also what the spectra is at that place.
• 16:15
  I think
• 16:17
  humans are somewhat the same way, but we don't like to think that. So when we move to a different place,
• 16:24
  let's let's say we move from
• 16:27
  Northern Europe to the Deep South, which was common for, say, Scottish immigrants.
• 16:33
  We often
• 16:34
  maybe don't think about
• 16:37
  what has changed about our environment in terms of time.
• 16:41
  And one of the things that's
• 16:43
  always been interesting to me, and I've wondered about this since I've kinda come gradually more and more south, is what has changed about about me,
• 16:53
  and how I perceive
• 16:55
  time moving
• 16:56
  and and what happens to my body as I age at a different latitude.
• 17:03
  How does it how does it experience it?
• 17:06
  So there's some fascinating patterns there.
• 17:09
  I don't know if you wanna explore this. Yeah. No. So so let's just, like,
• 17:14
  Unknown: people often think, oh, I moved from,
• 17:17
  let's say, Scotland, and my people moved from, they were living somewhere up in the Highlands, and now they're living in North Carolina.
• 17:24
  So it's a lot further south.
• 17:26
  Now the the days get way hotter.
• 17:30
  There is more direct sunlight than what they would have gotten. And then also,
• 17:35
  the seasonal changes, like, it'd be much less,
• 17:38
  abrupt. You know, North Carolina doesn't have snow because they're they're get more sunshine,
• 17:43
  more direct light during the wintertime than you would in Scotland.
• 17:47
  And you are saying
• 17:48
  when people moved either just as like, hey, I'm moving. I'm the I'm the actual immigrant from Scotland to North Carolina
• 17:55
  or over generations because their bodies were well adapted to living in Scotland.
• 18:01
  Now living in North Carolina, their bodies are going to age differently
• 18:05
  as a function of they have their own Scottish genetics
• 18:10
  being played out in North Carolina's environment, and that's gonna manifest in a different way. And you you suspect
• 18:17
  their in their internal clock of time is somehow different?
• 18:22
  Unknown: Yeah. And I think the easiest way to maybe
• 18:25
  look at it and I've I've done some cursory
• 18:28
  data mining on this. We don't really have great data,
• 18:34
  I would say, like, prior to 1900.
• 18:36
  But the most immediate obvious thing that sticks out is fertility rate tends to go up as you move south
• 18:44
  for populations.
• 18:46
  And that that sort of makes some sense. Your food sources change,
• 18:52
  and I think your you know, sunlight changes. And I think
• 18:56
  this is just a suspicion,
• 18:59
  but I would tend to think that in the winter when you're starving
• 19:04
  and maybe you're living kind of a more
• 19:06
  keto
• 19:07
  diet lifestyle,
• 19:08
  like fasting and and only consuming the fat that you've already stored or the fat that you're eating because you're not really You're not eating fresh fruits.
• 19:17
  Unknown: You're not eating that many vegetables. If you are, they're very, low in carbohydrates,
• 19:22
  like,
• 19:23
  and it's gonna be a lot more foods that come that can be shelf stable. So either live protein or fats that have been stored over a longer period of time or milk,
• 19:34
  that you could get consistently, but not a lot of carbs there. Not a lot of carbs. Not a lot of sugar. Absolutely.
• 19:41
  Unknown: And so
• 19:43
  it does look like also
• 19:45
  that,
• 19:46
  you know, if if you're starving if you're literally starving before Easter and the first spring egg,
• 19:52
  it's maybe not great,
• 19:54
  for your ovules
• 19:56
  to try and conceive and grow a child.
• 19:59
  So maybe those ovules are of lesser quality at that time of year in that location.
• 20:04
  But suddenly when you're in the light and you're you're eating, you're giving your body signals like, hey. I'm eating an orange in February.
• 20:13
  It might be like, oh, okay. Well, that's great. Your glucose is is kinda up, so I don't have to worry about that now. I can do some other things.
• 20:22
  And I think that's something we really haven't explored.
• 20:25
  I I tend to think
• 20:27
  we can go anywhere and just continue
• 20:30
  as they are.
• 20:31
  Unknown: Well, you almost think like, oh, this is better. I mean, like, Anne and I talk all the time about, like, oh my gosh. Children, you have no idea. I never had berries in
• 20:41
  in January. You should be thanking the lord. Like, this is so much better than what we had. And if you think, you know, a hundred years ago,
• 20:49
  the most they would have had would have been canned, but that would have been a lot better than two hundred years ago when they didn't have canning, but better being
• 20:57
  maybe in,
• 20:58
  a misnomer there. Right? Because it could be that your bodies are adapted to a certain style
• 21:05
  and that,
• 21:06
  when you start changing that, if you start eat consuming a bunch of fresh oranges with a bunch of,
• 21:13
  easy sugars to get to and a bunch of vitamin c, its absorption probably won't be the same as it would be if you were getting it in the summertime
• 21:21
  because it isn't paired with other things
• 21:24
  that you would get it absorbed with, and this may knock your clock off,
• 21:29
  in weird ways and prompt your body to do things that you don't,
• 21:33
  that that we aren't we don't even consider we don't even associate
• 21:36
  with
• 21:38
  how we think about diet.
• 21:40
  Unknown: That's right.
• 21:41
  That's exactly right.
• 21:43
  And it's not to say that there aren't some generalists out there. There are gonna be super generalists that can move everywhere and and maybe,
• 21:52
  have a little bit more adaptation.
• 21:54
  But there's I think, you know, what we see in terms of extreme diets in North America,
• 22:00
  generally in Canada and The US is is trying to fit somewhere.
• 22:05
  Like, I'm gonna do this this this keto style diet. I'm gonna do this honey diet. Like, I'm gonna prioritize carbs. Well,
• 22:13
  what's telling you to do that? Like, where do you get the reinforcement mechanism? What season is it that you're doing it in kind of? And so, like, how do you get, like, good reinforcement
• 22:23
  or don't you? And I think, like, being aware of these how these things work together this season with the diet
• 22:30
  versus where you came from might help you
• 22:34
  better tailor what you need.
• 22:36
  Unknown: Yeah. I mean, nobody talks about diet that way, but I I remember when I did keto to great success of losing weight, I, I started in the springtime, and it was the worst time to do it because it meant all summer long
• 22:49
  as there were these great simple sugars, fruits, and things that I could eat. I didn't eat any of them. And then winter came along and, oh, here's sweets and candies and cakes and whatever, and I get off a keto. And it was, like, the worst yo yo I I could have possibly done. But it would make sense to me that if, like, around December,
• 23:08
  you really wind down
• 23:11
  carbs and you and you amp up this kind of more, like, keto diet, that that would match my Irish and German Swiss heritage,
• 23:20
  that that's probably a lot more similar to what they ate for a few thousand years.
• 23:24
  Unknown: Yeah. And fat is also really great for the winter. It's a great insulator.
• 23:28
  Nine calories
• 23:30
  per,
• 23:31
  I think, per gram versus four calories for protein and carbs. So
• 23:36
  you get a lot more bang for your buck, like, in the winter when you need it to heat yourself up.
• 23:41
  Unknown: So I think it makes sense that way too. What do you think? I saw the other day this this guy talking about,
• 23:47
  oh, you shouldn't wear sunglasses,
• 23:50
  that you will sunburn more frequently if you wear sunglasses.
• 23:54
  What do you think of this?
• 23:55
  Unknown: There
• 23:56
  is I mean, there's this this phenomenon in these businesses
• 24:00
  for
• 24:01
  for white people, especially,
• 24:03
  Norway has a really high incidence of skin cancer.
• 24:08
  And you're probably familiar with the phenomenon of, like, northerners going south, at least in Canada. My family, they're always like, I need to go south. I need the light.
• 24:18
  But now there's these services.
• 24:20
  Instead of calling themselves tanning services, they call themselves photo hardening,
• 24:25
  where you can kinda go and prime your skin and eyes to absorb a higher wavelength of light so that you're not immediately
• 24:34
  bombarding
• 24:36
  your your skin and your eyes with really intense UVA and possibly UVB radiation,
• 24:43
  which is harmful. Like, it it is eventually harmful, but you also need it for vitamin d.
• 24:49
  So the amount of time that you spend in it, let's say if you spent all day in it and you came from an environment where it was just winter and that's generally what people do, they go south.
• 25:00
  They spend an entire week on the beach, and they just get red like a lobster.
• 25:06
  And and they haven't really, like, slowly,
• 25:10
  adapted in.
• 25:11
  So you'll find, like, people in Florida and California,
• 25:13
  even if they are of
• 25:15
  European ancestry, have have less skin cancer rates because they have that gradual
• 25:22
  adaptation in in spring and fall
• 25:25
  as opposed to, like, straight. It's winter now, and
• 25:28
  now you're gonna blast. Now we're gonna blast you,
• 25:32
  that you get with spring breakers or,
• 25:34
  Unknown: snowbirds in Canada. So, I mean, sunning is something like you naturally feel it. Right? You get out in the sun, and at least if you get some, you're like, ah, this this feels,
• 25:45
  you know, rejuvenating in some way. I also see people talking about
• 25:50
  and this get kind of like,
• 25:52
  you know, intimate or whatever, but
• 25:55
  people
• 25:56
  sunning their wait. How do you how do you even pronounce it? Perineum? They're they're like
• 26:01
  that is that your is that your asshole? Like, it like, your I think it's what's commonly referred to as the taint. I'm sorry. It's the space between your your testicles and your and your anus. Right? And so the what I've read is that men that do this get higher degrees of testosterone.
• 26:18
  But that seems to me like,
• 26:21
  what evolutionary
• 26:22
  process did that come from? Right? Like, were people actually, like, going and laying out in this way, or was it that they were naked? They didn't have any loincloth on? Do you think this is all just bullshit and they're trying to trick people into going and laying naked out in their backyards?
• 26:38
  Unknown: I'm not sure. I mean, it's a stress response. It's kind of like, you know, going to the sauna,
• 26:44
  and just kinda,
• 26:45
  Unknown: heat shocking yourself and then jumping in a cold plunge and cold shocking yourself. So a little bit of stress maybe is good for the hormones. I don't know if I would sit out there for, like, two or three hours. You're probably not a good thing to do in the afternoon. Might be a good infrared morning thing or evening thing, but it's I I see it now all the time, and I wonder, are you guys fucking with me? Or, like, is this really, like because people will be like, man, this life changes. This is just great. And I think, like, even if you have a pretty private place,
• 27:14
  the idea that you would somehow adjust yourself so that you could sun that particular area of your body
• 27:20
  seems like it's a trick. Like, April fools.
• 27:24
  Unknown: Yeah.
• 27:25
  It's a I I I think a little bit of stress, everything in moderation.
• 27:30
  I don't really judge because I I have had these effects not quite that one.
• 27:36
  In moderation is great.
• 27:38
  Definitely spent time in saunas and cold plunges. But after about the fourth cycle, you're like, that's enough. I'm gonna go home. Maybe I'll do it a week later. Seems to be about the right rhythm.
• 27:48
  Nothing needs to be,
• 27:50
  maybe not nothing, but I don't know if everything needs to be twenty four seven, three sixty five days a year. I think that's what we've gotten used to. Maybe there's some good times to send your perineum, and then and that's it's a certain time of year.
• 28:06
  Unknown: So Yeah. There should probably be rituals. So I've been talking a ton about rituals lately and, you listened to the podcast I did with Shay Folk,
• 28:15
  but about like
• 28:16
  there's some really interesting things in Catholicism
• 28:19
  that I think drives Protestants crazy.
• 28:22
  Where you're like, yeah, but where in the bible is using this frankincense
• 28:26
  on these special holidays and,
• 28:29
  you know, where where in the bible does this thing do? But there's, like, the ritual of it
• 28:35
  seems to be like a Chesterton's fence.
• 28:38
  Like, I don't know exactly why they do this, but the fact that they do it,
• 28:43
  when you do it, there's benefits to it. There's, like, things that connect and seem right.
• 28:49
  Unknown: Yeah.
• 28:50
  Yeah.
• 28:51
  I mean, I, so, you know, I was raised Catholic,
• 28:57
  but I have to
• 28:59
  I have to I don't have to.
• 29:02
  I often interact with Protestants in The States.
• 29:06
  And because I think that that's sort of the major European founding,
• 29:11
  you know, episcopal
• 29:12
  episcopal,
• 29:13
  Presbyterian,
• 29:14
  Lutheran.
• 29:16
  And for a while, I think,
• 29:18
  I had looked this up. My my dad told me about this. I didn't believe him.
• 29:23
  But there was all this,
• 29:25
  anti Catholic propaganda in the early nineteen hundreds, like crazy posters
• 29:29
  in The States, like, you know, no dogs, no blacks, no Irish because they were Catholic,
• 29:34
  and then, like, the papal plot to take over The States. There's all the these cartoons.
• 29:40
  Like, you can go and look this up.
• 29:43
  But I
• 29:44
  I'm from Canada originally,
• 29:46
  and and so the province I grew up in
• 29:49
  was primarily
• 29:50
  Catholic, Irish and Scottish Catholic.
• 29:54
  And so I just didn't have a conception.
• 29:56
  I didn't grow up with Protestants. Protestants. Like, I just didn't.
• 30:00
  And,
• 30:02
  you know,
• 30:03
  meeting Protestants
• 30:06
  has been an interesting experience for me and and learning how to communicate with them. And I'm not great at it, but I'm getting better every day. So what do you to make the comparison. What is your people's style
• 30:20
  Unknown: relative to the Protestant style of communication?
• 30:24
  Unknown: So I think that,
• 30:27
  faith is almost
• 30:29
  a software
• 30:31
  for ancestral environments. And if you know a person's faith
• 30:35
  more than their ethnicity or any other
• 30:39
  identity category,
• 30:41
  it maybe becomes a little bit easier to understand and and communicate.
• 30:47
  So
• 30:48
  I,
• 30:50
  I was looking at this map of Europe
• 30:52
  because I was I've always been sort of interested.
• 30:55
  It's a it's a continent.
• 30:57
  It's almost smaller than The United States as a whole continent, but it's got all these, like, fractal
• 31:02
  populations
• 31:03
  that and tribes that
• 31:05
  sometimes didn't interbreed, so they have their own languages.
• 31:09
  But
• 31:10
  it was interesting because the North was all Protestant.
• 31:14
  And then as you move south, you got to Mediterranean
• 31:17
  Catholicism.
• 31:17
  To the East, you have Orthodoxy.
• 31:20
  And to the South, you have the very South, Northern Africa, you have Islam.
• 31:25
  And then you just, like, look at that, and you're like, oh my gosh. That might be an environmental gradient.
• 31:30
  And then you overlay the primary fat group from from those regions, and it's almost like a perfect match.
• 31:37
  So you have in the North,
• 31:39
  you have Protestants with butter.
• 31:42
  In the middle, you have olive oil, Mediterranean,
• 31:45
  like,
• 31:46
  sun people, like, everything's fine, and we can, you know, be be ordained, and we have time to do things, and we have all these different vegetables,
• 31:54
  in high society.
• 31:56
  And then you go, further south, and you kind of also encounter environmental constraints with extreme heat.
• 32:03
  So you get, like, the date palm oil.
• 32:06
  And then you get the sunflower off with the orthodox, and I was just like I was floored by how well these two mats matched each other. And I was like, I wonder if faith is just, like, emergent from the environment.
• 32:20
  So winter
• 32:22
  is a brutal season,
• 32:24
  especially if you don't have the modern convene conveniences,
• 32:27
  And it makes sense to have, like, really precise language,
• 32:31
  to have words mean really precise things,
• 32:35
  to be extreme linear thinkers,
• 32:38
  to be really into identity politics as well. It's the other side of it, I think. And,
• 32:45
  that's how I kind of view a lot of Protestants now. And it's better to ask them how
• 32:52
  than why. That's another thing I've realized. I mean, that's that's
• 32:57
  Unknown: something I talk about in my class. I hadn't always thought about it as like a protestant Catholic thing, but but the
• 33:04
  when you talk about the woke ideology, I poked Shay with that last week about how it was like, you know, the protestants,
• 33:11
  they keep breaking down like, hey, we have a different interpretation of this literal translation and therefore, have another
• 33:18
  schism. Right? Another break apart.
• 33:20
  And,
• 33:21
  and this is what you see in in, like, kind of the woke ideology. But where do you see that? Why why do those two flow from the from the same progenitor?
• 33:32
  Unknown: To me,
• 33:34
  I guess it's well,
• 33:36
  I mean, America is kind of founded on Protestant principles. So even if people
• 33:42
  like children are lapsed from their parents,
• 33:45
  they still get their parents' views.
• 33:47
  And
• 33:49
  I think faith dictates language
• 33:52
  as well. So I find Protestants
• 33:55
  very careful about how they use their language.
• 34:00
  And
• 34:01
  I
• 34:02
  so even if these children are kind of not practicing religion, they're still practicing
• 34:08
  reasoning that's similar to that faith.
• 34:11
  I would say the
• 34:12
  the high level algebra is similar.
• 34:16
  So even if the unknown variables are a little different
• 34:20
  so if I were to look at it,
• 34:22
  like, higher up, I don't know if that's a good analogy or not, but to be, like,
• 34:27
  LGBTQ
• 34:30
  IA plus plus
• 34:32
  is a really long acronym that keeps schisming
• 34:35
  the very same way. I think Lutherans have now schismed seven times in The States,
• 34:41
  and I think Presbyterians
• 34:43
  have schismed a bunch in The States.
• 34:46
  So it's
• 34:48
  Unknown: yeah. That that pattern to me is very similar. I don't know if that works. I mean, I I it's it's very interesting in legacy interviews because I get to talk with people. I've talked with people that were Jewish,
• 35:01
  Catholics,
• 35:02
  and Protestants.
• 35:04
  And I have a sense for just a few moments into a conversation before we start everything
• 35:11
  Yeah. Where what their faith is. And I I even make a joke, like, with the Catholics, by the time you've walked into my door and shaking hands with me, I'm like, this person, if they weren't Catholic,
• 35:23
  their parents were or some part of them. And this is not to say, like, good, bad, that it is not an indicator of how well we're gonna get along. It is none of that. Just I get the I I spot the patterns here. And it and it's totally true about language and,
• 35:41
  which values
• 35:43
  people
• 35:43
  talk about
• 35:45
  are different. And, like, I don't know that I would want to, like, hammer down, oh, Protestants have these values and Catholics have these values, but maybe more in the way that they describe different things. And it it's like, it's so fascinating to me because I'm not
• 36:00
  I'm not judging at all. Right? Like, I just get to sit and and prompt it out of them, but I've gotten to hear the way that people's values manifest in which stories they tell and
• 36:11
  how they present themselves in a really, really interesting way.
• 36:16
  Unknown: Yeah.
• 36:16
  I mean, it'd be interesting to hear some of your stories. I I obviously, there's some confidentiality around legacy interviews, but
• 36:25
  I would love to know
• 36:28
  how to communicate better.
• 36:32
  The one thing that
• 36:34
  I think maybe
• 36:36
  maybe I have lashed latched onto, and you can tell me a bit more about this, is the how versus the why.
• 36:42
  I don't know why that's so powerful, but it it works every time. So if I suspect a Protestant,
• 36:49
  I always ask them, how are you thinking about that?
• 36:53
  Unknown: Yeah. I think why is a symbolic question. Right? Like, it's it's,
• 36:59
  why is multifactorial.
• 37:01
  And when you go to isolate,
• 37:03
  why did you do something?
• 37:05
  You know, the brain research that I've looked up says, oh, when you ask somebody why and you're in an MRI, the part of their brain that that stimulates imagination lights up. And so no matter who you ask a why question to,
• 37:18
  maybe there's some truth in it, but really it's like, you know, my why, well, I need to come up with a finite answer, so I'm gonna give you this specific thing.
• 37:26
  But the truth is, like, why happens as a result of many things. And usually, what we do is a reaction to the forces that are at work upon us. And so if you ask somebody a why question, they're gonna give you an answer. And to them, it's the right answer, the truth, whatever. But if you ask them a how question,
• 37:45
  now it's not in the realm of symbolic thinking. They just go back, well, let me figure out where the starting point was, and now let me tell you what the next thing was, and the next thing, and the many factors that led up to it. And so the why emerges
• 38:00
  from the how in a way that a protestant, even a Catholic, really anyone, but but specifically, you're talking about protestants, like, allows them to express
• 38:10
  symbolic thinking in very precise language.
• 38:14
  Unknown: Yeah.
• 38:15
  I think that's super interesting, and I
• 38:19
  maybe a good analogy, let me try this on,
• 38:22
  is
• 38:24
  in computer in computer languages, we have,
• 38:27
  like, assembly language and c plus plus where
• 38:31
  you almost have to tell the machine,
• 38:34
  hey.
• 38:35
  This is how you do one plus two.
• 38:38
  And in other programming languages, there are libraries that already deal with that. So I feel like you can't
• 38:44
  like, they just go with, high level. Yep. You already get that. Moving on. And and for Protestants, it's like, build the base up.
• 38:53
  Unknown: I agree with that. I mean, that's that's I this is a really good way, to kinda break out what I was saying with Shay, probably not very articulately because this is all just new stuff I'm exploring. And somebody could walk along and be like, no. That's wrong, and let's blow it up. I'd be perfectly open to that. But the,
• 39:10
  you know, I talk about the, the experience of
• 39:13
  frankincense.
• 39:14
  Right? The incense.
• 39:17
  If you talk to a Catholic, even if they couldn't name that that is frankincense,
• 39:21
  but, like, you put them in the space with that smell,
• 39:24
  they are instantly transported back to church.
• 39:27
  Likely, it incorporates other things like the sound of echoes,
• 39:32
  because you're in a big church or a certain type of song.
• 39:36
  And
• 39:37
  then you say, well, what what does that mean?
• 39:40
  Or,
• 39:41
  show me what, like, specifically how that is tied to something else. And you're like, you know, it's really it's really more of like an added dimension
• 39:50
  through which you can have this experience with the transcendent
• 39:55
  that
• 39:56
  doesn't have words. You know, like, I don't have words for it.
• 40:00
  But to somebody that doesn't have any experience in that domain,
• 40:04
  this sounds like apples or oranges, you know, doesn't
• 40:07
  make sense.
• 40:09
  Unknown: I actually really love that. I hope this isn't too much of a non sequitur,
• 40:14
  but
• 40:14
  today and yesterday,
• 40:16
  I was trying to figure out the difference between
• 40:21
  predicting tokens in an LLM,
• 40:23
  so an AI.
• 40:25
  Because language itself is kind of a one dimensional
• 40:28
  vector space. So it's just a a sentence, like, run on. Like, if you just kept typing, it's not two dimensional like a,
• 40:38
  matrix algebra where, let's say, we have an x and y coordinate in space.
• 40:43
  So that's a different type of data.
• 40:46
  And,
• 40:47
  each time you layer up the information,
• 40:50
  I'm gonna get back to smelling this and frankincense.
• 40:53
  Each time you layer up the information,
• 40:55
  it gets more energetically costly
• 40:58
  to to think about this. So language is is the simplest.
• 41:02
  LLMs are the simplest. The next step, you have vision.
• 41:07
  And then after that, you have video, which can have four and five dimensional tensors
• 41:13
  because you have height, width, time.
• 41:16
  You have hues,
• 41:18
  so you have color.
• 41:19
  And trying to predict that is very is very hard.
• 41:23
  One of the things and I'm always looking like, where are humans different kind of from AI?
• 41:30
  One of the things that humans have are olfactory
• 41:34
  neurons,
• 41:35
  and it's a great way
• 41:38
  of
• 41:39
  hacking memory really quickly.
• 41:41
  And it's not
• 41:43
  computationally expensive
• 41:45
  like eyesight.
• 41:46
  We have huge
• 41:47
  parts of our brain dedicated to vision,
• 41:51
  but pretty small,
• 41:53
  to nose, but memory recall is really great with it. And I was thinking, wouldn't it be great? Memory recall,
• 41:58
  Unknown: but
• 41:59
  well, I don't want you finish. I don't wanna interrupt you. No. I wanna hear what you have to say. Well, so what's so interesting about smell is let's just do an experiment. Right? If I say, recall the scent of a lemon.
• 42:11
  Right? You can picture a lemon and you may even for a split second be able to grab a citrusy ish
• 42:19
  type image in your mind about that smell, but you cannot hold the smell of a lemon in your mind.
• 42:26
  And to me, that's fascinating. The only way you can smell a lemon is if you're actually in its presence, frankincense.
• 42:33
  You know, somebody can be like, I remember it's like a holy smell, but can I recall it?
• 42:37
  Not really. Not for any length of time.
• 42:40
  Unknown: That's that's very true. But as you're saying that, I think what I'm also saying is if you think about a lemon, I'm out of a tree right out here, it immediately triggers vision.
• 42:52
  Right.
• 42:53
  Really triggers a scene. So it's almost like a hack to get that perfect memory, and we all know that AI is very can be expensive in terms of tokens. So wouldn't it be cool if you had a chemo sensory that could just hack that perfect memory for less tokens?
• 43:10
  Unknown: And our memory isn't perfect as well, but, yeah, that was just sort of Well and our memories being perfect is is not always the the most valuable thing. Right? Like, what meant what humans remember are stories.
• 43:22
  You know? I thought things were going well. I ran into a problem that I wasn't expecting. Now things not going well. And the and the thing that ever if if you can run that pattern for people, anyone will listen to your story because what they wanna know is as things were going down, did you somehow change and make them get better? Or did you fail the change and they were in a tragedy and you and and and now I'm gonna watch you crash and burn because humans are completely primed to be like, hey, I I don't wanna have to repeat the mistakes of that person or
• 43:53
  I want to leverage the success of this other person. And stories,
• 43:58
  when you treat them literally,
• 44:00
  I think
• 44:01
  sometimes
• 44:02
  lose some of the the depth and sophistication
• 44:06
  by letting them breathe and be transportable across time.
• 44:11
  Unknown: I would agree with that. But tell me more about it,
• 44:15
  like, maybe from the perspective
• 44:17
  of your own family
• 44:19
  because you you wanna
• 44:21
  Unknown: Well, this is the perfect segue, and I'm gonna give you a break. We've been going hard. I'm gonna do just a thirty second clip clip about legacy interviews and people telling stories. I did not plan this, but it works out as a perfect segue. I grew up with my dad and my uncle all the time, and I heard all the old stories. Like my mother not having electricity and water. It's one generation removed. Today's world just so so different, and that gap is there. We always talked about it with my dad, but we never really did it. I would've liked to have had it with my parents. You know, we always wanted to do something like that, but somehow we never did. If you keep waiting so long, the memories do fade. I'm not saying I'm getting old. You take the opportunity when you can.
• 45:04
  So speaking of stories, it's like this is something that it's so funny because the only way a story goes on into the future
• 45:12
  is if it is passed on somehow. Right? If somebody is expressing it. And so stories are alive in some way and they're always changing and evolving
• 45:22
  And they the lesson that they're
• 45:25
  imputing
• 45:26
  can transcend more than just what was that one person's experience with it. Yeah.
• 45:33
  Unknown: That's
• 45:34
  that seems right to me.
• 45:37
  I'm I definitely have,
• 45:40
  from my own experience, I used to get my grandpa to tell me trouble stories.
• 45:45
  So stories when he used to get into trouble and to go in this term as a kid.
• 45:51
  And,
• 45:52
  you know, he would have to adapt his own stories for a child. So I often wonder, did I get did I get it from his perspective?
• 46:00
  Or
• 46:01
  but I think I got the gist of meeting anyway.
• 46:04
  So that would be my kind of
• 46:06
  Unknown: symbolic kind of real world experience with that. But I think I'll okay. Current love right now and and, you know, as a Catholic, I you know, we are loathed to to be evangelizing people. Right? I'm just telling it about my own experience.
• 46:21
  And I've
• 46:23
  started reading my kids the bible, and I realized that I had like a children's picture bible understanding
• 46:29
  of the bible. Because we've been reading the story of how Samuel anointed Saul
• 46:34
  and then Saul became the king that then David,
• 46:38
  came over top of. Now Saul, when he starts chasing David, he kills 80 priests,
• 46:44
  their wives, all of their children, and,
• 46:48
  slaughters these oxen and leaves them in a pile. Right? You read this to your children.
• 46:53
  This is not Nickelodeon.
• 46:54
  This is not Disney. This is, like, the raw thing.
• 46:58
  I have no interest in censoring the bible. So my girls are like holding on to the chair as they're flying through the air of this insane story
• 47:07
  and you realize like,
• 47:09
  man, there are a ton of just wild stories in there. I had no idea. My my understanding of the bible was that it was like, oh, it's all just the good nice stories and, you know, I I don't know. So this is the stories that I've been telling my kids outside of my own trouble stories.
• 47:22
  Unknown: Oh, that's great. Yeah.
• 47:25
  Reading the the the bible as an adult versus the child.
• 47:29
  It's a trippy book. Like, there's a lot of stuff in it,
• 47:34
  a lot of metaphor and a lot of analogy
• 47:38
  and allegory to current time that
• 47:40
  sometimes blows my own mind.
• 47:43
  Unknown: But I mean, I can't believe how open they are about things. Like, they talk about, you know, he had not laid down with women or, you know, she had gone through four cycles of, with no child. And you're like, holy shit. Like, this is we we have this impression.
• 48:02
  I have this impression that we live in a progressive, modern, more open world where we're explaining things more openly to kids and I don't think we are. I I think, like, we have a we've kind of we've got like a nerf
• 48:15
  and,
• 48:17
  I don't know, like, child lock
• 48:19
  kind of Garden of Eden. But the Garden of Eden for children was when when people were reading their bibles to them more was
• 48:27
  way more stark. They knew way more about what was going on in some way.
• 48:31
  Unknown: Yeah. I
• 48:33
  I
• 48:34
  my own hypothesis
• 48:36
  on this
• 48:37
  is
• 48:39
  money might be a hyper object
• 48:41
  of energy and time,
• 48:44
  and I think we have lost any sense of time.
• 48:48
  I I think we have, and I think,
• 48:51
  you and I are of a generation where we lost time. We we basically canceled seasons.
• 48:57
  We canceled
• 48:59
  kind of perception
• 49:01
  of
• 49:02
  time of year being special.
• 49:06
  And and maybe that's that's too harsh. Does that strike you as as
• 49:11
  Unknown: Super interesting to pursue. Right? Like Yeah. I I remember when I lived in California,
• 49:16
  and there were really only two seasons. Right? It was, like, rainy season and dry season.
• 49:21
  And to me, it at first, it was really fun. It was like, oh, it gets to be forever so warm and perfectly fall weather. But then eventually, you get where you're like, yeah, but nothing ever changes. And so for me, the seasons,
• 49:33
  growing up in the Midwest, growing up Catholic, having these holidays, these various things,
• 49:38
  time was a lot more embedded. But if you get rid of all of that stuff and you're in air conditioning
• 49:44
  and you never have to go outside if you don't want to and you can have any kind of fruits or vegetables that you want at any season, you're right. Like, there is a graying out of time where you're not having this these fluctuations.
• 49:58
  Unknown: Yeah. One of the examples I would say growing up in Nova Scotia, Canada was we always had everything was closed on Sunday when I was growing up. Everything was closed on Sunday.
• 50:10
  And when they started to bring in Sunday shopping
• 50:13
  right after we did free trade with with, I think,
• 50:17
  The United States and Mexico,
• 50:19
  they started to bring in Sunday shopping. And there was this big referendum
• 50:23
  on it, like, should it be
• 50:26
  twelve to five? And I think that's initially what we did, noon to five on Sunday so people could go to church in the morning.
• 50:32
  And then that morphed.
• 50:34
  And then it's morphed again, really, if you think about it. You can get anything $24.07
• 50:39
  if you live in certain spaces three hundred and sixty five days a year.
• 50:44
  Like,
• 50:45
  you base it doesn't
• 50:47
  Unknown: it's almost like nothing is worth anything anymore because it's it's lined up. Well, I mean, this is funny that you bring this up because in my family,
• 50:55
  I've been really pitching the idea of, like, hey. I want Sunday just to be family day. Like, that's all we do. It's only family. And, like, what how we define family is bigger than just our actual relations. We have god family.
• 51:07
  You know, we have, like, special people in our lives that we would spend time with. But, like, this idea of sports,
• 51:14
  you know, in integrating into it and it's like, well, if you wanna play on the special traveling team, you're gonna have to play both on Saturday and on Sunday. And if you don't like it, then you can't participate.
• 51:23
  But I think that that
• 51:25
  flattening out of the weekend, making Saturday and Sunday the same day
• 51:29
  has really
• 51:31
  deep implications both for how you keep time, but then also for the relationships. And what is time other than relationships and seeing growth and seeing things change?
• 51:41
  Unknown: Yeah.
• 51:42
  And so I don't know, you know, if there's a way for even,
• 51:47
  some of the new AI agents to help us with this. I'm I'm not sure.
• 51:53
  But I suspect
• 51:55
  we might see
• 51:57
  some reversion
• 51:59
  to how we keep time because I think it's driving us crazy. I I really do. I think it I think,
• 52:05
  keeping the world flat
• 52:08
  I don't know if it's helping everyone. I I don't know if it's helping us. I maybe that's too generic to say. But So I I've got a deeply personal question, but it's
• 52:19
  Unknown: the listeners should know I'm not just, like, sandbagging you with this. Like
• 52:24
  like,
• 52:25
  my time is marked by I have children and I'm now trying to raise them up.
• 52:31
  You are at the age where you are unlikely to have children.
• 52:35
  Correct. How do you
• 52:37
  gauge the future? What does that what what does the future look like to you? What is it that you want to put into the world? If not children,
• 52:45
  how do you think about this?
• 52:47
  Unknown: This is tough because I think I've reflected on this deeply.
• 52:52
  As you know, we did try to have kids, but we're unsuccessful.
• 52:56
  But,
• 52:57
  so my wife or partner is female. You you know that very well. But,
• 53:03
  so I am 45.
• 53:06
  And what that what I've reflected on, basically, and this is this is maybe a bit harsh, but
• 53:14
  I think that
• 53:17
  women in particular probably have a little less time than they think.
• 53:23
  And
• 53:25
  they also like, one of the things I've become aware of I without participating in it because it's not necessarily, I guess, my orientation.
• 53:35
  I don't know.
• 53:36
  But
• 53:38
  women do have this thing called pretty privilege
• 53:42
  where they can pretty much get anything
• 53:45
  up to a certain age,
• 53:47
  and they can probably still exploit that even
• 53:51
  maybe into
• 53:52
  to some some amount of age. I wouldn't say past 40. No. But, like,
• 53:57
  you know, I think,
• 54:00
  they can certainly
• 54:03
  use that
• 54:04
  as a way of of getting things. But when it when it drops away, it's very obvious.
• 54:10
  When it drops away, it's very obvious.
• 54:13
  So then
• 54:14
  I've I've not really ever conceived of that. So it's only through observing some of my female friends that I
• 54:20
  that I've kind of just, like, from afar, like, sort of noticed it.
• 54:24
  And then I then I started to wonder, well, was I getting things? Like, I'm not aware.
• 54:29
  And, so what can I contribute?
• 54:32
  And I think the two things that
• 54:34
  Unknown: Wait. Wait. I wanna clarify this. So you're saying because of your orientation,
• 54:39
  you were not somebody that was,
• 54:41
  trying to attract male attention
• 54:43
  and and the pretty privilege is female to male, or is it bigger than that? I'm I don't I don't wanna oversimplify your point.
• 54:52
  Unknown: I think it's, like, it's generally male to female. So, like, females
• 54:57
  attracting
• 54:58
  males and getting things from males,
• 55:02
  because of their aesthetic.
• 55:05
  Unknown: And because you were not attracted to males, like, likely, you were not exploiting this in the same way that a woman that is attracted to males might.
• 55:13
  Unknown: Yeah. Or just not as cognizant. And I I think that,
• 55:18
  Unknown: you know, I I I yes. So yes to your question. Yeah. Okay. So now keep going from this. This is this is insightful.
• 55:27
  Unknown: Yeah. So,
• 55:29
  you know, I think I probably if I had any of it, I probably lost it over ten years ago, at least. That's what I'm thinking.
• 55:38
  But my perception is still like, I'm very curiosity driven.
• 55:43
  Like,
• 55:44
  if you're not gonna create life, create ideas, and create things. Like, that's the only reason for me to really live and create relationships and maintain them, you know, support my extended family. Those
• 55:57
  are probably the reasons
• 56:00
  for continuing on and and and living.
• 56:03
  I'm not like
• 56:05
  I I think I'm resolved to that now as well. And so
• 56:10
  to me,
• 56:12
  you know, I've I've gotten a few patents,
• 56:15
  and I've put them into scale in production, and that's been really great.
• 56:20
  But I also think cultivating
• 56:22
  relationships with my own family and my own friends is
• 56:26
  really important.
• 56:28
  And I think also
• 56:31
  being really open minded, like,
• 56:34
  I think I am pretty open minded. Like, I'm I'm I can
• 56:38
  a lot. Like, I'm not The most open minded. These No. But I like extreme level. Yeah. I I like diverse extreme perspectives.
• 56:47
  I like hearing them. I think it's better to hear them and consider them than for them to be
• 56:54
  within a person. So I love having conversations.
• 56:59
  And I would say, like, I have a lot of male friends. Like, I'm sure my friends are male.
• 57:05
  But,
• 57:06
  yeah, like, I I think all of those things are important to lead a successful
• 57:12
  life.
• 57:13
  And I'm not necessarily interested in personal legacy as
• 57:18
  as much as, like, knowing people and that maybe ideas continue on through them, but without, like,
• 57:25
  really inserting them heavily because I love hearing their ideas too.
• 57:29
  Unknown: Yeah. What strikes me is, like,
• 57:32
  it's very easy in our culture, particularly among conservatives to be like, oh,
• 57:38
  people that don't have children, they're they're not like us, therefore, they are different. Right? We we but and and maybe separate, and we don't consider them. And I
• 57:49
  I resist this because I was talking to a good friend of mine this morning, and he was like, you know, any any man
• 57:56
  that was delivering before he had children, all of a sudden is now, will always have that path that he can look down and be like,
• 58:04
  what could I have delivered if I were not
• 58:07
  putting my attention towards my children? And in the worst way, that's like if my children weren't distracting me or keeping me from it, but also, like, you know, I chose this and this is where I'm going. Because I think it's I think it's very difficult for a
• 58:20
  great man or a great person, somebody that is really putting,
• 58:25
  things into the world that are going to last
• 58:29
  generations,
• 58:29
  centuries, a long time to be a good father, putting children and humans,
• 58:35
  you know, distant into the future because they both require proof of work. They both require time.
• 58:40
  And so in in many ways,
• 58:42
  I think it comes down to if you don't have children, are you still creating life
• 58:47
  but that life being more symbolic in terms of ideas or
• 58:53
  opportunities seems almost like too cliche.
• 58:56
  How does that resonate with you?
• 58:58
  Unknown: I think it resonates well.
• 59:01
  And I think
• 59:02
  one of the things that maybe,
• 59:05
  females do more than males,
• 59:08
  and and this is just a stereotypical
• 59:10
  observation.
• 59:11
  So it's probably majority true, but there are exceptions,
• 59:14
  is I think females are risk averse.
• 59:19
  I don't think you should be risk averse once you hit this age. I think you should just let ideas kinda come to the forefront and not
• 59:27
  hit them down with regulations
• 59:29
  or just, like, fear.
• 59:32
  Like,
• 59:33
  it's probably a a good time to do some novelty search and to allow younger people to have the floor, to have ideas,
• 59:41
  and to listen to them, and to support them seriously.
• 59:44
  Unknown: Yeah. Well, so this would be another observation from legacy interviews.
• 59:48
  There's a certain type of mom that after the kids are out of the house, all of a sudden she gets active in all these groups, now all of a sudden is, you know, running book clubs and
• 1:00:00
  starting a knitting shop and doing all these things.
• 1:00:04
  And that that is not the way with men. They they aren't like, oh, finally, my kids are out of the house and now I'm going to go do this thing.
• 1:00:12
  There's something of a second life,
• 1:00:15
  when women hit their forties that I think may be more external facing.
• 1:00:20
  And I think, like, Carl Jung talks about when men hit 40,
• 1:00:23
  there's a lot of, like, internal searching because you've spent so much time having your persona up there. Like, hey, everybody. I'm competent. Trust in me and I'm gonna lead you forward and this will bring financial resources to me. But when you finally do get those financial resources or that stability,
• 1:00:40
  men often will be like, alright. Now I want some introspection. Now I want time to myself. I wanna be in my library, and I wanna read my books with my pipe as opposed to external
• 1:00:50
  relationships.
• 1:00:51
  Unknown: Yeah. And I I don't know if I'm speaking myself about external relationships.
• 1:00:57
  I think it's just about, like,
• 1:01:00
  how can I maybe
• 1:01:02
  invest in this young startup or how can I,
• 1:01:06
  you know, help people with resources that they might need?
• 1:01:10
  But maybe it is. I don't know. That's a good observation.
• 1:01:14
  I
• 1:01:15
  yeah. I'm considering.
• 1:01:16
  Unknown: Well, you are, like, inventing
• 1:01:18
  things and exploring ideas. I mean, you're my most novel per like, if I call you, Kate, what are thinking about? Like, it would it's gonna be so out there.
• 1:01:27
  And I think part of that is like, one of the reasons I like talking with you because in talking to you, it's like iterative, like, generative.
• 1:01:35
  Right? I talk with you and then I get to think about ideas. And oftentimes, if I didn't talk with you about these ideas, I would not think about them. And this makes you, like, super, super,
• 1:01:46
  engaging and I think keeps you younger because you are exposed to so many more new ideas.
• 1:01:51
  Unknown: Yeah.
• 1:01:52
  Yeah. And I I think novelty
• 1:01:55
  helps keep you young a bit, but you need some amount of conservative backing. Like, it's can all be novelty.
• 1:02:03
  So I'm I've been maybe I've been trying to think about lately, like, what
• 1:02:08
  what is more a bit like what's my axiom, my conservative rock inside of me?
• 1:02:15
  And I you know, some of that is, like, maybe some religious upbringing.
• 1:02:20
  So what is that? How does that ground me for the future?
• 1:02:24
  What are the what are the readings that kind of speak to me in terms of metaphors that way?
• 1:02:31
  Yeah. So
• 1:02:33
  Unknown: those are some thoughts. Well, this has been a great conversation. I know you said you had to go at 01:15.
• 1:02:38
  I am going to be interviewing Yosha Bach on Monday. What should I ask him about?
• 1:02:45
  Unknown: I think you should ask him about
• 1:02:49
  the energy of novelty in AI versus the energy of novelty in a human being.
• 1:02:56
  What does that mean? How many watts does it cost to generate something new?
• 1:03:01
  A new idea with AI versus a new idea with the person.
• 1:03:06
  Unknown: Oh, that's fascinating.
• 1:03:08
  What are the systems involved? Yeah. I wonder if the evolution of the humans is it's cheaper to get new ideas from humans and run out the the ideas well thought through ideas through AI. That's fascinating.
• 1:03:21
  Unknown: Yeah.
• 1:03:22
  Unknown: Well, Kate, thank you so so much for coming on. If people were interested in stuff that you're doing, you're not really a public person. Do you have, like, a website or any place where you're just like, no. I'm out there.
• 1:03:33
  Unknown: I I mean, they can reach out to you, and I'm always happy to to talk to people. Fair enough. I will be your filter. I will be a vicious filter of people.
• 1:03:42
  Unknown: But if you have good things that are interesting to talk about, I'll I'll I'll connect you with Kate. Kate, thanks so much for coming on, and I will I will let you have your
• 1:03:51
  Unknown: your afternoon back. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thanks, guys. Okay.
• 1:03:56
  Unknown: Well, thanks for, joining me today on the podcast. As I said, I'm gonna be interviewing Yosha Bach. I've got a couple more really interesting podcasts coming up for a while. I had just taken so much time
• 1:04:08
  because
• 1:04:09
  we were getting so much work. We've been doing the, legacy interviews. If you wanna do them in person, I offer full day interviews in studio in Saint Louis,
• 1:04:18
  with me. And, if you're looking to do them online,
• 1:04:22
  I have hired and trained a fantastic host. It took me six years to, finally get comfortable with another person taking on this art form, but I have had Brian King interview my wife, and I've seen other content that he has created. I really like him. And, and I think if you've been wanting to do a legacy interview, it's a great Mother's Day gift. It's if your parents can't get up, they can't move, or, you wanna find a more cost effective option, you can do the online version,
• 1:04:53
  with our host, Brian King. I'm gonna finish out, by playing a short video about the interest based communications
• 1:05:01
  class that I put together.
• 1:05:02
  This is a class that is designed to help people
• 1:05:06
  express ideas so that other people want to listen to them and want to engage with them, and how to listen to other people so that you can understand them and find
• 1:05:15
  the best outcomes possible.
• 1:05:17
  I have been delivering this to corporations,
• 1:05:20
  and has been going very well. I've been traveling all over. People in Arizona,
• 1:05:25
  Nashville,
• 1:05:26
  all over. People are inviting me to their sales meetings, to their scientific groups.
• 1:05:30
  But if you would like to take it for yourself,
• 1:05:34
  I am offering a three day course,
• 1:05:36
  where we will have daytime activities where you're learning about negotiations
• 1:05:40
  and storytelling,
• 1:05:41
  and we'll do evening activities where you're gonna get to really try these things out. And, we're gonna do the next class June
• 1:05:50
  here in Saint Louis, here in my studio. Come join 11 other people that are, dedicating themselves to becoming better communicators
• 1:05:58
  and, know that this is a very well received class. So go to articulate.ventures/ibc
• 1:06:06
  and, sign up. There are only 12 spots available for, the June,
• 1:06:11
  or, we have one in July coming up. Alright. I'm gonna close out with this, outro about,
• 1:06:18
  Unknown: interspace communicating. We'll be back on Monday with a podcast with Yoshiba. My name is Heath Hunter. I'm a managing director at Broadview Group. In our business, your success is dependent on how you're able to effectively tell your story, to relate to your customer or your potential partners,
• 1:06:34
  and we needed a course that could train our staff on how to do that. I was looking for something much less than what Vance delivered. I literally just wanted him to come in and help us a little bit with storytelling.
• 1:06:46
  And he came back with this curriculum,
• 1:06:49
  was
• 1:06:50
  awesome.
• 1:06:51
  How to craft a memorable introduction,
• 1:06:53
  build
• 1:06:54
  a story around our firm and how we personally weave into that story, how we continue the conversation
• 1:07:01
  through asking good questions.
• 1:07:03
  How to negotiate
• 1:07:05
  in a collaborative way versus a competitive way so that we maintain that relationship that we've worked so hard to build. Our relationships are everything. To me, interspace communication
• 1:07:15
  Unknown: is really understanding
• 1:07:17
  Unknown: the perspectives and the point of view of others, being able to meet them where they are. Interspace communication to me is creating a dialogue with someone else sitting across the table from you. It allows each party to really describe
• 1:07:32
  Unknown: what they care about
• 1:07:33
  Unknown: and work together to accomplish that for each party. A lot of people, myself included, before I took Vince's class really went in with higher weight on what was important to me. Everybody
• 1:07:45
  Unknown: has a tendency to just focus in on the price.
• 1:07:48
  But there are
• 1:07:49
  hundreds
• 1:07:50
  of other components that come into something as complex as a transaction
• 1:07:55
  Unknown: for a company. What are they actually interested in? What do they hope to achieve? And what does success look like for them walking out of a negotiation? Those could differ
• 1:08:04
  Unknown: widely from how they're showing up. If we can somehow get on the same page, you can create
• 1:08:09
  these collaborative solutions that are a win for everyone. We've definitely woven that into the process. We're trying to ask those deep probing questions on what are their motivations,
• 1:08:20
  Unknown: what do they care about. Really understanding who they are, introducing yourself to better communicate who you are and your background. What makes a good introduction?
• 1:08:29
  Unknown: This is something that I I really appreciated.
• 1:08:32
  I've been in the workforce for, you know, twenty seven plus years and done lots of introductions. I've heard lots of introductions. Making
• 1:08:39
  Unknown: introduction, I think everyone just assumes that you should just kind of start talking about yourself and go into
• 1:08:46
  your title and what you do. And frankly, that's typically not very memorable or interesting. Going through this course and learning about
• 1:08:53
  storytelling and the arc of a story and how to embed that in your introduction
• 1:08:59
  was honestly like nothing I had ever heard before. And it makes a lot of sense. Right? Because if you're a good storyteller, you tend to sort of capture an audience and you want to be able to do that with your introduction, sort of that hook that you need in in a story. For me, the big thing was having faith that sitting back and really paying attention to the conversation will help draw out a connection. Before I would spend my time trying to, okay, what do I have in common with this person? Oh, yeah, this is a chance to interject
• 1:09:28
  Unknown: and establish that link. Ironically, just kind of stepping back and saying, I'm gonna really pay attention to what's in front of me. It really has impacted the conversation because you can get deeper faster. I used to think it was all about how interesting I could come across. But what I've learned, and honestly what Vance taught us, the most interesting folks that you run across ask really good questions. That's been a game changer for me. Instead of trying to focus on myself,
• 1:09:54
  Unknown: focusing fully on the other person
• 1:09:57
  and really just listening for like what are the details that they're giving me because there's that they mention that. We
• 1:10:04
  Unknown: assume that folks can kind of see what we see in our heads.
• 1:10:08
  And what this course taught us about diagramming your ideas is to put it on paper. Put it out there so the other parties can see it. We were meeting with a group that week and we were trying to communicate different ideas and outline a vision for this potential business. Instead of doing it in a PowerPoint format, we did it on a white board. It was transformational. The CEO, he he just lit up. We actually handed the pen over to him. We said, hey, show us where we've got it wrong or show us where you have additional ideas. The level of engagement,
• 1:10:39
  Unknown: we all went through the roof. And he got up and you could see he was almost giddy. Having that limiter of the speed of your hand, you're bringing them along in, you know, your idea you're trying to convey. So the practicality of the course, the mirroring, the diagramming,
• 1:10:52
  Unknown: the exercises,
• 1:10:53
  I think that's one of the things that I appreciated most about the course. Super candidly, I've been through a lot of these in my career, and you walk out of there and you're like, well, that was a waste of time. What I can tell you about what Vance brought to the table, I at no point ever felt that way. I was able to walk out of every single session and put to work immediately what we had practiced that day. He has a great way of connecting concepts so that you have this, you know, holistic framework, so to speak, to connect with people, which is something that we do all the time, but deliberate practice of it really helped up my game. I would recommend that everyone take this course,
• 1:11:27
  Unknown: and I would venture to say that this has been more impactful for me at home than at work.
• 1:11:34
  Pretty much everybody is having conversations
• 1:11:36
  and negotiations
• 1:11:38
  at home. I feel super
• 1:11:40
  lucky and blessed that we were able to have this course at work and that it sort of bleeds into home life. I think that's kind of the best of both worlds. Any corporation or any firm, no matter what the size, I think would benefit from something like this. Who I'd recommend this to is a small group of professionals who are really dedicated to self improvement.
• 1:12:00
  Unknown: Intra space communication to me is a holistic
• 1:12:04
  way to build relationships.
• 1:12:07
  It can benefit anyone.