Latest / Sell Well: Helping Agencies Close More Deals and Grow Revenue / Phone a Friend: Caroline Lewis on Buying Lawson House and Selling Cold

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Phone a Friend: Caroline Lewis on Buying Lawson House and Selling Cold · Sell Well: Helping Agencies Close More Deals and Grow Revenue

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Sell Well podcast.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Today is a special episode.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: This is our phone a friend episode.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's our first one.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I've got Caroline Lewis with me today.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: She is the CEO of Lawson House.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: We have a really unique friendship and relationship after selling the agency to her and her taking over full ownership and what that looks like.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: And this is probably my most requested interview from people so far.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: All of my, you know, tens of listeners are asking for you and I to kind of give the behind the scenes of what it was like to go through the transition of Lost in House.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: So we're going to talk about that.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then we're also going to talk about some sales and what it was like to take over selling for the founder and things like that.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: So Caroline, thanks for joining us today.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for having me.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited to be here.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I want to just start by talking about what it was like when the first time I called you and you thought that we were doing a performance evaluation.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: I was uh kind of ambushed you and said, Hey, would you ever want to run Lost in House?
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: And you're like, I mean, hypothetically, sure.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, how about in like two months?
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: What was it like for you to have that kind of blindsided with that question?
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: What was it like when I kind of first brought that to you?
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was something I had never expected.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: It was going through the building of Lost in House alongside you.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: I always pictured it was something we would do together.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: And indirectly, it is still something we do together.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: But I call you with all of my questions still to this day.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that at first I was like, gosh, I never thought I would be a business owner.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: I really, I had always told my husband he has the entrepreneurial spirit.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I always told him, you'll always be the one to own the business center.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Which is there, he is extremely entrepreneurial.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I always thought that would be his thing.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: I would have the corporate nine to five, and that would be our division of business.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: And when this opportunity was presented, I was like, gosh, maybe I could do this.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it was one of the most exciting and terrifying moments all the same time of like, wow, someone believes in me enough to do this, but also it could be really fun.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: And there was a little inkling inside of me that was like, you should do this, even from the first moment of the question.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then that just continued to grow as we talked about what that could really look like.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: As I went to my husband and asked him, I was like, what do you think about this?
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, yes, absolutely, immediately.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: No questions asked, no whatever, we're just doing this.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, okay, I have the support system.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: Susie believes in me to trust me enough to take what she's built.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: So it was at first I was just so honored.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Then I went a little bit terrified.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then now I'm so grateful.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think too, something that was really interesting is you were like, okay, like I'm in.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Now what?
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, oh man, neither of us knew what this looked like.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, we're Googling things like how to sell a business and is this possible?
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: And luckily, we had an incredible lawyer, also man and Carol, who kind of walked us through what was possible and what wasn't.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: But before we had all those details in place, before we really took the time to pursue this legally, what were some of the things that you did on your side to explore this from a personal standpoint and kind of protect yourself and your family?
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I started to think about a couple different things.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: One, the financial risk of all right, do I want to take this on is that any business, no matter the status of it, is a financial risk.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: And there are pieces that you have to be willing to say, yeah, I'm gonna put my livelihood in the hands of this business.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: And knowing what loss in house has brought to our clients, to our team, just the joy that it's brought to so many people, I knew that at the end of the day, I had the passion for it.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I'm willing to take that risk for the sake of offering better marketing for small business owners.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that sounds cheesy, but it's true.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: And that was like, okay, this is really where I want to drive this.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then the kind of two other questions was the financial side, but also am I willing to lead the team?
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that was one of the biggest things that was a navigation for me is that over the years, I had recruited a lot of my friends to work at the company.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: And you were our best recruitment tool.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I loved it.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I loved working with my friends.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: I loved the community we had built.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: We were still a mostly female team, and I still really, really enjoyed that model.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: But do I want to be responsible for my friends' salaries and their leading their jobs and their careers?
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I really felt like that there was a reason that I was being put into this place and that there was things that were more important than not than the friendships, but there were things that were more important that could come out of this alongside friendships that were worth taking that risk.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that that to this day, I think has had its bumps as it will, but I think it's been really, really successful at the end of the day too.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: I would 100% agree.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think you've led the team so well.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: One of the hardest parts once we got through the transition and kind of through the, and I think that was something that we did really well is we would kind of have conversations of like, okay, I'm putting on my legal hat right now.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: But overall, like we would say in the middle of the phone call, like, okay, I'm taking this off.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: And as a friend, like, I actually don't know.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm asking this question because of this, or I'm worried about this.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: And we were very transparent with each other.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things you were very transparent about was being nervous about taking over sales fully.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: And you had done a great job upselling.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: You had done such a great job.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: It was one of the reasons I thought you would do really well running it as you had a great track record for sales, but I was still owning 90% of the sales at that point.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'd love to talk about what it was like to take over sales for a founder and some of the things that you learned along the way or any bumps that you hit, kind of things we worked on together throughout the transition.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think that really the sales side of things, you're right, was the biggest undertaking of all of it because I had not done that solely in any regard, is that I had some sales experience over the years between upsells or just naturally nurturing conversations that came to fruition, kind of thing.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: But being like, okay, I need to be the one who is driving the sales of this was really exciting.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: But at first I was like, there's never, I'm never going to be able to do this.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that a couple of the things that really helped me anchor myself in sales was one is that I know we're providing our clients value.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like I'm selling something they don't need.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like I'm convincing them to buy something that's just to put a dollar on the table kind of thing.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: I knew that what we were providing them would make a difference in their business.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, okay, then I'm not getting on a call convincing someone.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm explaining how much we can help them.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that really shifted my mindset of like, okay, it's not sales has such a bad reputation with the word sales.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: And because there's so many scammy sales artists out there and they're very good at it, and we've probably all fallen for it.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I think once I started to be like, that doesn't have to be me, and that's never been the history of Lost in House.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: It is truly we provide them value and they're going to get something awesome out of their experience with us.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: That was a big mindset shift for me.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: The other piece was that I now stepping into the owner role was able to level with my clients.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that made all the difference to go from, hey, this is my job and I'm selling this, to I get it.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a business owner too.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that really helped me change the way I spoke to the to prospective clients as well.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: Because I was like, I get, I understand the decision you're making now more than ever, is that this might be a big risk for you.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: But I, as a business owner, I understand that it's worth it.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think that empathy and pricing is so important.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think that so many people miss that um and get frustrated with people and they're like, why don't they see my value?
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: Why don't they want to pay me?
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: But the truth is it's always a risk and finding people to, you know, that you can trust with your business or trust with your investment is a big deal.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: Something I talked about on a previous episode is that we always had the mindset of there's no budget that is too small and not from the standpoint of, you know, there are definitely people who can't afford to work with us, and that's fine.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: But the idea that we're never going to tell somebody, you want a website for$100, how dare you?
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because I've been there.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like I have needed a hundred dollar website before.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think just always trying to meet people where they are and find solutions for them, even if it's not us, um, has been something that we have seen you kind of carry that on in your own sales process.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's a lot like the miracle on 34th Street scene when Sol Blazzle's referring people away from Macy's.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's that there's a lot of that that I think that provides so much value.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: And the CEO of Macy's in the movie sees that, hey, this is actually the best sales tactic we've ever had is to say, hey, go to JCPenney's or go to this other department store.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: They can help you.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then they still trust you and you're building a long-term relationship there.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: So if we aren't the right fit, I think that putting that into your sales process makes all the difference because it comes back to you tenfold.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: It may not be with that client, but it may be with others.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's amazing.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, one of the things I've been so impressed by with you taking over a risk on my side was I didn't know how much money you were going to be able to make.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: So people are like, you know, what was the revenue modeling that you did?
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, I just really believed in her, which is a terrible economic principle, but it would make for a great movie.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that when I look at what you've been able to do, you've improved sales in a lot of different ways.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: You have been able to raise prices appropriately within the market as, you know, inflation has hit.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: You've been able to bring out more team members.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: I want to talk about some of the ways that you have improved sales and some of the things that you guys have pursued from a sales perspective that have made you successful.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would say two, well, three main buckets there.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: One is cold outreach.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: We've really poured a lot of our resources, time, energy.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: That is what my husband's job is at our company is to research all of that to be he's on the Reddit threads.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: He's in constant conversation with people, always learning because it's something that is constantly changing, for better or for worse right now, because A, people are more used to cold outreach than ever, but the right cold outreach can make all the difference.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: We have to I want to just pause there real quick.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: So if you've listened to my story before, I had partnered with an amazing cold outreach company that had been doing all of this for us as a partner, but you guys made the decision pretty much immediately when you took over to bring all of this in-house, which was a huge undertaking and had never been done before.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: And you guys essentially 5x'd the amount of outreach we were doing.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: That was crazy and have definitely improved that over time.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: But that was a big decision that you guys made right off.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: And that I think was such a great decision because as we've seen cold outreach evolve, it has changed so much in so many ways of the pricing models and things like that.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: And now we're able to evolve it almost instantly.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: Now there's still awesome partners out there for cold outreach if you don't want to undertake that.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: But it's been really, really helpful for us to dive in, to learn this, to be able to say, all right, we're seeing an uptick in working with lawyers right now.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Let's run some lawyer campaigns and we can get that going in a matter of a couple of days.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that that's been really helpful.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think the biggest asset to owning it is the messaging side of things.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: And that's one of the biggest pieces in cold outreach is landing the right messaging.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of our messaging when we've worked with previous partners has been very calculated, which is makes sense because they are working an algorithm to test, to see what works, things like that.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas a lot of our messaging, we write a lot more almost off the cuff style.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: So it feels very personal.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: It feels very one-to-one.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: And we've had clients say that they've kept our cold email because they knew it was a real human.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: They've kept it for a year.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then when they were ready to work with us, they've outreached back out to us.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: And now they're a client going on two years with us, which is awesome.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the kind of cold outreach system.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think that it's really helpful to keep in mind when you're using systems like that, that it's not just you're landing that one-time project, you're landing a long-term client.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: And now you can get referrals from that client and you can build this network around these clients from that cold outreach.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: So it may be a lot of kind of the pushback is that it's expensive and it is.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that you have to look at it too, if you're doing your job really well, that one lead turns to five leads very quickly and a long-term client very quickly, even though you paid X amount for that initial lead.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's something that I talk about a lot is one new client is so valuable to you because you can tap out of that referral network.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: But one new client that doesn't know you, that isn't a referral, is actually so valuable to you because they're going to refer you to more people and help you break into that new industry.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'll never forget when you told me like somebody just saved our cold email from a year ago.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, that is such a testament to the messaging that you guys are doing within there.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you guys aren't sending the like, hey, I saw that you went to college.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: We have so much in common.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: You guys put a lot of time and data into what is going to connect with people and give them that great first impression.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, bucket number two.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, bucket number two has been partnerships.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of our version of digital networking, and it has been so helpful.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, really building relationships with other marketing agencies that I once saw as competition, who've now become some of my greatest friends and best um revenue drivers.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: So that has been so helpful to have.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: Really leveraging a, if we aren't a good fit, going back to that Macy's model.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: If we aren't a good fit, we refer it out to them.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: We take referral cuts.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: Same with them sending stuff to us.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: We always gift back for anyone who sends business our way.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a really great way to have relationships that are revenue driving in a lot of ways that also can look like white label partnerships working underneath them when they have other services they want to offer.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really helped us diversify our revenue models and not just rely on one source of income, which I think has been so helpful in when cold email is and cold outreach is really great, but it doesn't work consistently across all seasons.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to have other things to help level out those seasons.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I think those partnerships have been huge in building those relationships and also just having other client base that we can be in it together with.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think um, you know, white label is something that's so underrated.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: It it's something that we should definitely do a whole episode on that.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: But I think when you're able to find somebody that you're like, hey, you do something that I don't do, we should trade off on this and kind of have a partnership here.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: The analogy I always give is I love buying my HOCUS from free people, right?
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: I totally understand that HOCUS is its own brand, but free people has its own colors within there and they've got their own special um partnership.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: I love that collaboration.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not confused by it.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's very clear.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: There's a way to do that in some really unique ways where everybody wins, everybody makes money, and the client gets exactly what they need.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: Normally at a better price point, which is awesome.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it also allows to build more trust with whoever that partner is, instead of saying, all right, now I can trust you with even more things.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that is a huge win for that partner as well, is that they become that even more trusted marketing source or trusted offering source, depending on what they're working on.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that it becomes a long-term asset and not just serve the purpose of the single need too.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, okay, talking number three.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: Lastly, it has been really equipping my team to sell more.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's been so helpful to not be the sole salesperson.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: And before when we ran it together, it was I had some sales, but you were doing a lot of the initial sales.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: And now we've got a really great system for multiple team members being able to jump into different sales avenues, upsells happening on a regular basis, and really just nurturing the client long term to say, all right, it's it doesn't have to just stop with a website.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: We can hop on and help with your social media now.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: And we've built this really great relationship and we understand your messaging and we can take that fully to fruition too.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: And not just from a sales perspective, but from a client value perspective too, is that you don't have to go now train up a new team.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: So by training my team to sell really well is that we get to diversify our offerings and expand our offerings with clients that they may have never known we even had.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, speaking from a I love that from a sales perspective, but also from a team retention standpoint, it's really hard to expand salaries and keep up when you're a small business.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: And this is such a great way for you to give opportunities to people for them to make more money and encourage them.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, we see something in you.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to go and make enough money to go on vacation next month, you can totally do that.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's such a cool incentive for your team as well.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's been fun to see how much they enjoy it and how naturally it comes to a lot of them who are already in these client-facing roles is that they get so excited when a deal is closed.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: They're like, You guys did it, yet I didn't do anything here.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: And they're so proud of themselves to be like, okay, this is it's not as scary as it seems.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it's awesome to see the client is excited to keep working with us too.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's awesome.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and a lot of times the client trusts them more than you because they want to talk to you initially, but they've been with Alex Martin the whole time.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: So they trust her fully, which is super fun.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, cool.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: I love those three things.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think this is so helpful.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: We'll have to have you back to talk more about cold outreach.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe we can do a Simon and Caroline duo interview.
• 17:24
  unknown: I love that.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: But thank you so much for everything you've poured into Lost in House.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: I can't tell you how grateful I am for you.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm so grateful for everybody listening to this.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully, you're able to take some of what Caroline talked about today and apply it to your own business.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, sell well.