Latest / Untoxicated Podcast / Ep251 – Alcohol-Free Beverages and Culture with Billy Wynne

Transcript

Ep251 – Alcohol-Free Beverages and Culture with Billy Wynne · Untoxicated Podcast

• 0:01
  Welcome to the intoxicated podcast.
• 0:05
  Well, I'm Sherry Seal, and that was my
• 0:07
  house than Matt. We have questions about the
• 0:10
  impact of alcohol and addiction on relationships. If
• 0:13
  you have those kinds of questions to, you're
• 0:15
  in the right place, Here we go.
• 0:20
  Hey, Sherry. Do you remember that? Question and
• 0:22
  answer session we had for folks who might
• 0:24
  or might not have been interested in our
• 0:26
  shout variety program or our echoes of recovery
• 0:29
  program. We did that back in June. Yeah.
• 0:31
  I do. It was in June. Right? It
• 0:32
  was June. Yeah. Yeah. Let's do again again.
• 0:35
  That sounds fun. How about August? Let's do
• 0:37
  it. Right. But I am itching to go.
• 0:39
  So if we're gonna do it in August.
• 0:40
  It's gotta be August first.
• 0:43
  Your calendar free.
• 0:44
  That work? I think I can make that
• 0:46
  work. Great. No big cat session scheduled August
• 0:50
  first.
• 0:51
  August first, 06:30PM
• 0:54
  in the mountain Daylight, saint mountain daylight... Mountain
• 0:56
  saint, whatever Mountain time,
• 0:59
  06:30PM
• 1:00
  them. The last time we it, we did
• 1:01
  in the morning. Mh. And we had a
• 1:03
  lot of people actually,
• 1:06
  surprised me, how many people join us.
• 1:08
  But we did hear from a lot of
• 1:09
  people that say,
• 1:11
  I can't get out of work, so we're
• 1:12
  gonna do in the evening.
• 1:13
  So
• 1:14
  just to help folks 06:30 Mountain Time is
• 1:17
  08:30 on the East Coast 05:30
• 1:20
  Pacific in
• 1:22
  07:30.
• 1:23
  30 central. So I know. It's some... Some
• 1:26
  people like, a little help with trans
• 1:28
  translation. I sometimes screw up and go the
• 1:30
  wrong direction, but that's my own personal home.
• 1:33
  06:30 Mountain Time, question and answer session, You
• 1:36
  don't have to
• 1:37
  be anything more than just slightly curious to
• 1:40
  join us. There's no commitment. What we're gonna
• 1:43
  do, we're gonna have someone who's is a
• 1:45
  current member of our echoes of of recovery
• 1:48
  program.
• 1:49
  On the Zoom video call with us, along
• 1:51
  with someone who is a current member of
• 1:53
  our shout sobriety program,
• 1:55
  they're gonna tell a little bit of their
• 1:57
  experience with the programs.
• 1:59
  We're gonna give you a little rundown on
• 2:01
  what is involved, and then we're gonna take
• 2:03
  questions. So pretty painless. You can in fact,
• 2:08
  keep your camera off
• 2:09
  and not unmute, and you can even make
• 2:11
  up a fake name. If you would like
• 2:14
  that level of anonymity, you are welcome to
• 2:16
  All you have to do to express interest
• 2:19
  and receive the Zoom link for this August
• 2:21
  first at 06:30 Mountain Time,
• 2:24
  video call is to send an email to
• 2:26
  matt at
• 2:27
  sober and una ashamed dot com.
• 2:30
  And we will not
• 2:32
  reuse that email for any purpose. We won't
• 2:34
  sell it. We won't follow up and pest
• 2:36
  you. You'll give me your email address, get
• 2:39
  the Zoom link, and we will be out
• 2:41
  have after that. So
• 2:43
  we hope we have another big group that
• 2:45
  wants to join us and learn more.
• 2:47
  Sherry, today, we are blessed to be joined
• 2:51
  by friend and
• 2:53
  you know, somebody whose family has been impactful
• 2:56
  on our life,
• 2:58
  and we have worked together in a variety
• 3:00
  of ways. Billy Wynn joins us today on
• 3:02
  the intoxicated podcast. Thanks for being here, billy.
• 3:04
  Thank you. Have, Sherry. Could be with you?
• 3:07
  Billy is the founder and Chairman of impact
• 3:10
  Health policy partners,
• 3:12
  which
• 3:13
  a little research and, you know, looked to
• 3:14
  the blurb on your website. So... You did
• 3:16
  research. I just wanna make sure you know
• 3:17
  how. I'm impressed. A deep I went for
• 3:19
  this.
• 3:20
  It's the only
• 3:22
  and driven public interest government relations firm focused
• 3:25
  on health and well being,
• 3:27
  and we just love that about you. Thank
• 3:29
  you. Billy is also along with his wife
• 3:31
  Christie, who we know and love as well.
• 3:33
  In fact, Christie
• 3:34
  was on 1 of the original guests on
• 3:37
  the intoxicated podcast,
• 3:39
  way back episode 22,
• 3:41
  it was titled gray area drinking with Christy
• 3:44
  Wynn.
• 3:46
  So Billy and Christie together
• 3:48
  founded a week. A sober box
• 3:51
  alcohol free bottle shop and coffee house.
• 3:54
  Here in Denver, you opened in November of
• 3:56
  20 20. That's alright? So coffee out of
• 3:58
  the door. Yeah. Covid. Oh, that's right. Yeah.
• 4:01
  Yeah. That's right and we got coffee. We
• 4:03
  were, like... And then finally, we we worked
• 4:05
  our way in while you were having some
• 4:07
  renovations and it was all getting started. We...
• 4:09
  Nice. We said we know the owners. Can
• 4:11
  we have peak.
• 4:14
  We get a little special tour, you know,
• 4:16
  a special treatment.
• 4:19
  Awake was an absolutely
• 4:21
  really important
• 4:23
  establishment here in Denver,
• 4:25
  sadly closed after about 2 years in August
• 4:28
  of 22,
• 4:29
  And I wanna say public quickly on the
• 4:31
  podcast. What I've told you privately,
• 4:34
  you know, for the restaurant business is hard.
• 4:36
  The bar business is the coffee business is
• 4:38
  hard, but I don't think of what you
• 4:40
  did in terms of
• 4:42
  business
• 4:43
  success or failure. I think of it as
• 4:45
  a huge bold step forward
• 4:48
  to lead our culture out of a generations
• 4:50
  old belief that alcohol is required for socializing.
• 4:54
  Billie, I am a recovered alcohol
• 4:57
  and what was fascinating to me is that
• 5:00
  what I learned is wake was not just
• 5:02
  for me and my kind. It was much
• 5:04
  broader
• 5:05
  It was for anyone who wants an inclusive
• 5:08
  social experience,
• 5:09
  featuring music and people and food and drink
• 5:13
  without the toxicity
• 5:15
  that's how I feel about it. How do
• 5:17
  you feel about it? Thank you. Very much,
• 5:19
  Matt.
• 5:20
  And both of your support while we were
• 5:23
  operating awake and even after I closed it,
• 5:25
  like you said, is a lot to me.
• 5:28
  So thank you so much.
• 5:30
  I do look at as as a success.
• 5:32
  I mean even if it was opened, and
• 5:33
  then it was closed.
• 5:34
  It was incredibly fulfilling and meaningful for me,
• 5:37
  and I got to be present to see
• 5:39
  see
• 5:40
  lots of people having a good time in
• 5:42
  an alcohol free environment.
• 5:45
  I saw people come in with... And look
• 5:47
  at the of
• 5:48
  the bar and have tears in their eyes,
• 5:51
  because they didn't think that a space like
• 5:53
  that was possible.
• 5:54
  They didn't feel comfortable and other social environments,
• 5:57
  and they they, you know, weren't sure that
• 5:59
  they'd ever see that a place like that
• 6:01
  again. So
• 6:03
  it was really,
• 6:04
  I a lot of fun there myself, I
• 6:06
  think and hope that a lot of other
• 6:07
  people did too. And nothing lasts forever. And
• 6:10
  so it was amazing 2 year ride, and
• 6:12
  I'll, I'll, always appreciate if that was a
• 6:15
  part of my life. That's great.
• 6:17
  Address what I said about this was not
• 6:19
  just a place for me.
• 6:22
  Talk about
• 6:23
  what the demographic of the clientele was a
• 6:26
  little bit? And did it surprise you. Did...
• 6:29
  Like, did you target an audience? And that's
• 6:30
  who came and that's it?
• 6:32
  Know it was interesting. So first of all,
• 6:34
  we were... There was, like, the the local
• 6:37
  kinda super local
• 6:39
  crowd that was really there for coffee. Like,
• 6:41
  they wash and they come in and they
• 6:42
  get a latte. And so that's obviously kind
• 6:44
  of a a broader
• 6:45
  spectrum of people in terms of, you know,
• 6:47
  their interest in the people who are coming
• 6:49
  for the alcohol free experience, which primarily in
• 6:51
  the evening. For those people, it was really
• 6:54
  metro
• 6:55
  city wide, really up and down the front
• 6:58
  range and even nationally, mean, people would fly
• 7:01
  to Denver, and I don't wanna say it
• 7:03
  was the sole purpose They came to Denver,
• 7:04
  but they told us. It was a big
• 7:06
  reason that they came to denver, Yeah. Like
• 7:08
  a Pilgrimage to this, you know, 1 of
• 7:09
  a very few alcohol free bar spaces.
• 7:13
  And, among that crowd,
• 7:16
  I would say, I don't know if this
• 7:17
  was a surprise, but it was
• 7:20
  decidedly
• 7:21
  tilted women. So probably 2 thirds to say
• 7:24
  70 percent of the clientele
• 7:26
  was women. And
• 7:28
  I think maybe I speculated Of course Christie
• 7:31
  was my my partner through the whole enterprise
• 7:33
  and
• 7:35
  you know, brought a lot of her own,
• 7:38
  aesthetic and a lot of her own kind
• 7:40
  of perspective on social spaces to it.
• 7:43
  III got I would like to say that...
• 7:45
  And I don't have if you would agree
• 7:46
  this Matt that, women had an more of
• 7:50
  an open mind about experimenting with alcohol freedom
• 7:53
  in a social environment, maybe they weren't sort
• 7:55
  of in full blown recovery, but they were
• 7:57
  they were comfortable in that space of experimenting
• 7:59
  with different social options, then then then are.
• 8:02
  So that might have something to do with
• 8:04
  why our demographic was so heavily women but
• 8:08
  I I would agree with that. Sorry. Go.
• 8:09
  I'm just say another thing is,
• 8:12
  you know, being a woman,
• 8:14
  shocker.
• 8:15
  Turns out you're the only 1 in the
• 8:16
  room.
• 8:17
  I
• 8:18
  think that a lot of them would feel
• 8:19
  very comfortable and safe in the space with
• 8:21
  that. That's what I can remove. Even though
• 8:22
  I'm not a 1 that was gonna say
• 8:24
  that. Go. You know, because they're many times
• 8:26
  where you walk in and there's that 1
• 8:27
  person at the end of the bar that
• 8:29
  just gives you the Willie, and it's only
• 8:31
  happy hour.
• 8:32
  You know, know. So, like, knowing
• 8:35
  our daughter who's 22 and the things that
• 8:37
  she's experiences is a young woman, and the
• 8:39
  things that I experienced is young woman. You
• 8:42
  know, I think that it was also just
• 8:44
  offering a safe space for trying new things.
• 8:46
  I think you're right. I think as was
• 8:48
  are a little bit more open to try
• 8:49
  new things, but also having a safe space
• 8:52
  to try those things.
• 8:54
  Yeah. That makes us... And we did hear
• 8:56
  that from of a lot of our guests.
• 8:58
  And that that actually reminds me. We we
• 9:00
  also had a really
• 9:03
  strong support in the
• 9:04
  Lgbtq community. And some of that was because
• 9:08
  we we started awake in 20 20, and
• 9:10
  it was the summer of George Floyd and
• 9:12
  all things going on and a lot of
• 9:13
  us, you know, Christy and I included doing
• 9:15
  a lot of soul searching about our role
• 9:17
  in in oppression and and all that happens
• 9:20
  in our society. Mh. And so we really
• 9:22
  wanted to make clear that we were welcoming
• 9:24
  all people including
• 9:26
  people in the Lgbtq lgbtq community,
• 9:29
  like we had drag shows and that kind
• 9:31
  thing, which is a lot of fun.
• 9:32
  And we saw a lot of people like
• 9:34
  me. I think for similar reasons, that you
• 9:36
  just described Sherry, that that when you take
• 9:37
  the alcohol out of it, a lot of
• 9:39
  the risks that that they tell me they
• 9:41
  face in a more alcohol fueled environment are
• 9:43
  are taken away or minimized. And so I
• 9:45
  was very proud of that as well. And
• 9:47
  and while, you should be, I it in
• 9:50
  doing this work it has come to my
• 9:51
  attention
• 9:52
  or just my awareness,
• 9:54
  how infrequently I feel unsafe out there in
• 9:57
  the big bad world. Well I'm drinking or
• 9:59
  not. Mh. Just
• 10:01
  just because I'm a man. Mh. And
• 10:04
  we've met so many people for whom there
• 10:06
  is a risk just a stepping outside the
• 10:08
  door. Mh. And then when you pour alcohol
• 10:10
  on top of that, the risk just grows
• 10:12
  exponentially. Because of any number of, you know,
• 10:15
  access dental or
• 10:17
  bad evil intentional things that can happen. And
• 10:19
  so
• 10:20
  so, yeah, I think I think my perspective
• 10:23
  on that has
• 10:24
  has just widened in ways that I never
• 10:27
  expected, except for through hearing the stories and
• 10:30
  and meeting the people that we have. And
• 10:31
  so I'm really excited for the... That level
• 10:34
  of safety that you you guys created.
• 10:37
  Tell me how... So as I... When I
• 10:40
  read your bio at the beginning,
• 10:42
  we talked about your,
• 10:44
  your
• 10:45
  involvement in the health policy world. Mh. How
• 10:49
  did you go from that to an interest...
• 10:51
  Not just an interest in, Yeah but having
• 10:54
  the, you know, C to go forward and
• 10:57
  start this thing called Waco wake Denver? How
• 10:59
  do you get from point a to point
• 11:00
  b? Yeah. Well, so so... Yeah. So my
• 11:02
  career historically had been in in healthcare care
• 11:04
  policy? And I've I've been with different in
• 11:07
  for the last several years it had my
• 11:08
  own firm and now just this year have
• 11:10
  a new partner, but it's always been focused
• 11:12
  on primarily what the federal government is doing
• 11:14
  in the healthcare arena and with a strong
• 11:17
  tilt toward
• 11:18
  expanding access to to health care,
• 11:21
  and particularly for vulnerable
• 11:23
  populations and where there's there's
• 11:25
  we're lacking some equity in our current system.
• 11:27
  Mh. And so
• 11:29
  when I quit drinking alcohol,
• 11:31
  and I
• 11:34
  had an opportunity to have people managing some
• 11:36
  of the day to day, you know, work
• 11:38
  of my firm at the time,
• 11:40
  something that I wanted to do was think
• 11:42
  about this in more of a systemic level,
• 11:45
  and not, you know, it's really a aggregation
• 11:47
  of a lot of individual choices people are
• 11:49
  baking, right, around alcohol, but also we have
• 11:52
  a society that, you know, not so suddenly
• 11:55
  tells us that not only that it's okay
• 11:57
  to drink alcohol, but something's wrong if we're
• 11:59
  not drinking alcohol. Yeah. And so, Christine and
• 12:02
  I, you know,
• 12:03
  as when you when you step away from
• 12:05
  that as you might when you stop drinking.
• 12:09
  It's really startling. You know? So so we
• 12:11
  wanted to to not only
• 12:13
  stop drinking ourselves
• 12:15
  and, we wanted to help others, you know,
• 12:17
  make that choice and create space for others
• 12:19
  to make that choice. And normalize that choice,
• 12:22
  and hopefully help grow it, you know,
• 12:26
  so that, you know, people like Christian and
• 12:28
  I, who didn't come to some kind of
• 12:30
  abrupt, end the line and decide, you know,
• 12:33
  look kinda like, we had to quit. Maybe
• 12:34
  we did, but we didn't think about it
• 12:36
  that way. We felt like it was more
• 12:38
  of a choice. Mh. And so wanted to
• 12:40
  create that kind of avenue for people who
• 12:42
  are interested in making that choice to say
• 12:43
  you can still go out, you can still
• 12:45
  have fun. You can still listen to music.
• 12:46
  You can still have a sophisticated drinking,
• 12:49
  tasting beverage. And so that that, you know,
• 12:52
  kind of momentum from my career of looking
• 12:54
  at health and wellness a systemic perspective, I
• 12:57
  think is what inspired me to do awake.
• 13:01
  Absolutely. I so I... As I said, earlier,
• 13:05
  I am comfortable with calling myself a recovered
• 13:08
  alcoholic. I know that you prefer to consider
• 13:11
  yourself to be alcohol free. Does it have
• 13:13
  to do with what you just alluded to,
• 13:14
  the fact that there wasn't some big crash
• 13:16
  and burn rock bottom?
• 13:18
  Why do you choose that label as opposed
• 13:20
  to
• 13:21
  you know, the other myriad of labels that
• 13:23
  are out there are available. Sure. I guess
• 13:25
  for 1 thing for me, it's the simplest
• 13:27
  and the clearest. You know, it... I... In
• 13:30
  January of 20
• 13:33
  19, I decided to stop drinking, and I
• 13:36
  haven't drank since. And so I'm free of
• 13:38
  alcohol.
• 13:39
  I didn't have a...
• 13:42
  I think part of it is the the
• 13:44
  the maybe the lack of kind of the
• 13:45
  dead end type of experience, at least as
• 13:47
  far as I could was... You kind of
• 13:48
  consciously aware of. Mh.
• 13:50
  Then I did it didn't go along with
• 13:51
  it a really strong judgment about every other
• 13:53
  pop substance that some people might consider into.
• 13:57
  And so, there are lots and lots of
• 13:59
  things that I that I don't do, some
• 14:01
  of which because I think they're dangerous, some
• 14:03
  of which because I think they're harmful, some
• 14:04
  of which I just simply don't enjoy. Mh.
• 14:07
  But there are some other things that I
• 14:09
  know a lot of people in the alcohol
• 14:11
  for your community, you know, sort of lumped
• 14:13
  together with alcohol that for me,
• 14:16
  it has very different and Have a very
• 14:17
  different mindset about about that substance. And so
• 14:20
  I'm open to, you know, engaging with them,
• 14:23
  still in a very moderate very rare kind
• 14:25
  of occasion,
• 14:27
  but it doesn't feel a contradictory to my,
• 14:30
  alcohol free lifestyle. I like that. It's specific
• 14:32
  alcohol free. There's not a lot of ambiguity
• 14:34
  there. It'd be hard for someone to be
• 14:36
  confused about the decision you made around alcohol.
• 14:39
  That makes a ton of sense. Sobriety is
• 14:40
  so loaded. Mh. Cali sober. Love that. Love
• 14:44
  that turn.
• 14:45
  Among others. Correct. But, yeah. They're that makes
• 14:48
  that makes a ton of sense.
• 14:50
  Okay. So let's let's get into
• 14:54
  not just awake because you have
• 14:56
  you know, obviously, if you're gonna get into
• 14:58
  something like this, and
• 15:01
  you are a researcher or you're a pure
• 15:03
  smart guy.
• 15:04
  You looked at more than just what's happening
• 15:06
  in Denver. Mh you... I think you have
• 15:08
  a broader perspective, which is why we brought
• 15:10
  you here because this is not a Denver
• 15:12
  gas. Right? This is a
• 15:14
  as a much wider audience than Denver. So
• 15:17
  there used to be
• 15:18
  for, you know, 3 or 4 or 5
• 15:20
  choices of non alcohol like beer. And when
• 15:23
  I quit drinking,
• 15:26
  not the... Not this time, not 7 and
• 15:28
  a half years ago, but as a previous
• 15:30
  attempt. Yeah. I decided at 1 point. I'm
• 15:33
  gonna get really into non alcoholic bid. That's
• 15:35
  gonna be... Because I had an identity crisis.
• 15:39
  Not drinking alcohol. I didn't know who I
• 15:41
  was anymore because I so associated
• 15:43
  sadly. I mean, it sounds pathetic to me
• 15:44
  now, but at the time,
• 15:47
  It's just the fact. I so associated who
• 15:49
  I was with what I was drinking. And
• 15:52
  so
• 15:52
  part of dealing with my identity crisis as
• 15:55
  a sober person
• 15:56
  was to decide I was gonna become a
• 15:58
  con of all non alcoholic beers, which at
• 16:01
  the time was.
• 16:03
  I think there was a saint Polly girls.
• 16:05
  Mh. There was a there was a guinness
• 16:08
  version that was never available anywhere. I could
• 16:10
  never find it. But I you find it
• 16:11
  in the in, like, bars in the Ann
• 16:14
  arbor area because we had friends that lives
• 16:16
  there and I was pregnant once we went.
• 16:18
  I was like, oh, caliber, or we could
• 16:20
  find it again. And our friend told us
• 16:22
  about it because she had lived in saint.
• 16:24
  Paul. That's another place you can find it.
• 16:26
  I once while we're on this topic. I
• 16:28
  was at Coo field. I was the designated
• 16:30
  driver,
• 16:31
  a bunch of drunk, which is another entirely
• 16:33
  different story and and 1 of the worst
• 16:35
  nights in my life to be perfectly honest
• 16:37
  about it. But I walked the whole perimeter
• 16:40
  of the Concourse. Yeah. Looking for the rumored
• 16:43
  non alcoholic coo beer that they had. I
• 16:46
  finally did find it. It was, you know,
• 16:48
  they... What they cell beer, probably at
• 16:50
  80 different locations around the Concourse. 1 of
• 16:53
  the 80 had a non alcoholic course. 20
• 16:56
  step, it it's like 20 steps that's of
• 16:58
  beer and 20 so more. There's more beer.
• 17:01
  But think about how far we've come from
• 17:03
  that. 4 or 5 not very tasty choices
• 17:06
  to what has happened
• 17:07
  and to let our listeners know who might
• 17:10
  not know. The the market has just exploded
• 17:12
  It has no doubt. To what do you
• 17:14
  attribute that? I think that you know, number
• 17:17
  1, it it seems like the technology has
• 17:19
  advanced a little bit. So, yeah, you can
• 17:21
  down get, you know, an Ip or, you
• 17:23
  know, all these different types of styles and
• 17:25
  flavors, and that's just beer.
• 17:28
  I think also the just this growing interest
• 17:31
  and acceptance of,
• 17:33
  you know, making an alcohol choice. Again, whether
• 17:35
  it's for the rest of your life or
• 17:36
  just 1 night. I think that there's just
• 17:38
  for, you know, the a social
• 17:41
  evolution going on that embraces that choice. And
• 17:44
  so the market is meeting that. And what...
• 17:46
  It's a bit of a chicken in the
• 17:47
  ag, because all even for me,
• 17:50
  I would say part of certainly what inspired
• 17:52
  awake and maybe even partially inspired my decision
• 17:54
  to stop drinking
• 17:56
  was the burg availability of alcohol free products.
• 17:59
  And what I I perceived to be this
• 18:01
  kind of going along with that,
• 18:03
  the idea that
• 18:05
  not drinking was suddenly kind of a cool
• 18:07
  thing. You know? It wasn't like, you know,
• 18:09
  bad. It wasn't necessarily this like,
• 18:12
  kinda sad thing or a negative thing. It
• 18:14
  was like this new,
• 18:16
  exciting and interesting lifestyle that somebody could have,
• 18:19
  and there was products there and and beverages
• 18:21
  there that would support that.
• 18:23
  So, yeah. And it's been... In that, you
• 18:25
  know, it really...
• 18:27
  At the very least enabled a bar, like,
• 18:29
  away to exist because you can't really exist
• 18:31
  on 4 beers and, you know,
• 18:33
  Club Soda. Right. You're gonna have some interesting
• 18:35
  choices for people. So, you know, we, we
• 18:37
  can get into as much detail as you
• 18:39
  want. But, you know, the even wine, that's
• 18:41
  the hardest thing to do. I'd I think.
• 18:43
  But and then spirits and both spirits that,
• 18:45
  you know, mimic
• 18:47
  existing kind of alcohol based flavors and lots
• 18:49
  and lots of beautiful botanical spirits that don't
• 18:51
  try to make existing alcohol flavors. So, you
• 18:54
  know, we had a full 3 shelves of
• 18:57
  amazing drinks there, and, it was pretty site
• 19:00
  and created a lot of interesting on the
• 19:02
  menu. Mh. I have a... Sorry to quick
• 19:04
  question. Are those called shrubs, the herbal eli.
• 19:08
  There are... Shrubs is is 1 type of
• 19:10
  of, yeah. 1 type of beverage and often
• 19:13
  used in mixing usually other things.
• 19:16
  So... And that that was that was a
• 19:17
  work that I learned when I started to
• 19:19
  found wake. I'm not, like, wasn't a, you
• 19:21
  know, didn't know a lot about bar or
• 19:22
  anything like that. But
• 19:24
  yeah. Shrubs are something that even even, you
• 19:26
  know, alcohol based bartender will use sometimes to
• 19:29
  kinda different flavor. Well Matt and I were
• 19:31
  our tenders in college. So I always found
• 19:33
  it very fascinating, and I remember walking in
• 19:35
  like, oh, look at it looks so pretty,
• 19:36
  and it's all I'll alcohol free.
• 19:39
  You can have fancy drinks. It does look
• 19:41
  pretty. And that leads kind of into my
• 19:43
  next question.
• 19:45
  When you talk about things that do mimic,
• 19:48
  they're alcohol companion. Mh. Or things that don't.
• 19:51
  Mh. I find it kind of intriguing. I
• 19:53
  mean, Gin is like an objectively
• 19:56
  bad tasting thing. Right? Now I drink enough
• 19:59
  jen that I loved this. Right? I would've
• 20:01
  bought you. I would've have walked over hot
• 20:02
  coals for gin at 1 point in my
• 20:04
  life. But it... But it it... I just
• 20:07
  I'm so curious. If you're going to try
• 20:09
  to make a fancy drink and make it
• 20:10
  feel inclusive and make people feel like they
• 20:13
  have an option that's other than club soda.
• 20:15
  Yeah.
• 20:16
  The fact that 1 of them is designed
• 20:17
  to taste like gen or tequila kinda falls
• 20:19
  into that category too. Yeah. Is this
• 20:23
  is this, you know, the kind of the
• 20:24
  target audience for that is people like me
• 20:26
  that used to drink gin and love it
• 20:28
  and and feel like they're missing something now
• 20:30
  Do you have like, talk about your... Yeah.
• 20:32
  You're... Like, are people... Are they sitting with
• 20:34
  the bar every day after work and just
• 20:36
  pounding not out outgoing gems?
• 20:40
  I maybe some people are. You know, I
• 20:42
  I don't... It's... I don't have a final
• 20:44
  answer about that. I, I do say that
• 20:46
  I I enjoy both the the spirits that
• 20:49
  You know, the old flavors that are also
• 20:51
  used to drink a lot of and and
• 20:53
  those that don't.
• 20:55
  I, you know, every blue moon, I will
• 20:58
  put some Monday gin on alcohol gin, You
• 21:01
  know, shake it up in ice. I used
• 21:02
  to be a big martini guy. I'll a
• 21:04
  martini teeny glass, and I'll do a twist,
• 21:05
  and I'll I'll have a ball in that.
• 21:07
  Mh. You know,
• 21:08
  beverage.
• 21:10
  And is that is that due to some
• 21:12
  weird nostalgia you know, for those Friday afternoons,
• 21:15
  where I would get hammered. You know, maybe.
• 21:16
  I don't know, and maybe that's not super
• 21:18
  healthy. I don't know. You know, or it
• 21:21
  was... You know, there's a ritual side to
• 21:23
  it. Right And I've I've got the same
• 21:25
  ritual that I enjoyed, and I'm just extracting
• 21:28
  that harmful, you know, addicted chemical out of
• 21:30
  the ritual and so it's it's, you know,
• 21:32
  that feels healthy to put it that way.
• 21:34
  So I don't I don't know. You know,
• 21:36
  this like this and everything that you know,
• 21:37
  people to figure out what they enjoy and
• 21:40
  what, you know, is healthy and supports their,
• 21:43
  you know, well being. And I... For me,
• 21:45
  I'm kind of open to all of it.
• 21:47
  I'm... Most of the time, I'm just a
• 21:49
  beer guy. Like, you know, high 0 or
• 21:51
  I like an athletic or whatever. But,
• 21:54
  every now and then I do get a
• 21:55
  bug to make a little alcohol free cocktail
• 21:57
  and enjoy that too.
• 22:00
  There's a lot of buzz in the recovery
• 22:02
  community
• 22:03
  about this potentially being a slippery drinking non
• 22:06
  alcoholic,
• 22:07
  mimicking,
• 22:09
  alcohol mimicking beverages,
• 22:11
  including how alcohol spares all of
• 22:13
  beer and spirits and Well, it's that identity
• 22:15
  piece that. Yeah. You know, you're not shaking
• 22:18
  that as
• 22:19
  is enough and healing and recovery, I think
• 22:21
  is what is concerning to partners. Yeah. I
• 22:24
  mean, I think like if they continue to
• 22:25
  drink the non alcoholic things. And like you,
• 22:28
  mad, you will drink anything. Add add a
• 22:30
  mass paste. It doesn't matter if it's bubbly
• 22:31
  water, coffee, decaf coffee, iced tea, tea, it's
• 22:35
  gone. Well, and that's why it was important
• 22:37
  for me to stay away from Gin because
• 22:40
  it didn't matter if it was a light
• 22:41
  beer or gin. It was going down at
• 22:42
  the same case. So... But did you face
• 22:46
  any kind of push pushback? Did you face
• 22:47
  any kind of... Did did people race concern?
• 22:50
  Like, what are you doing here? Man, You're
• 22:51
  making it really easy for the alcoholic to
• 22:54
  laps. Did you get any of that? Definitely.
• 22:57
  Yes. And and that was something I wasn't
• 22:59
  prepared for.
• 23:00
  And and I think part of it had
• 23:02
  to do with that I didn't go through
• 23:04
  a additional recovery mh program. I didn't do
• 23:06
  Aa. And so I didn't I didn't know
• 23:08
  a lot about that culture. And I think...
• 23:10
  And not not that it's monolithic.
• 23:12
  By any stretch. Lots and lots of different
• 23:14
  types of recovery groups and Aa groups and
• 23:17
  and
• 23:18
  so 1 thing we did here,
• 23:20
  a lot was was really kind of 2
• 23:23
  different
• 23:24
  related things. 1 was some of the alcohol
• 23:27
  free beers and alcohol free spirits aren't don't
• 23:30
  have 000
• 23:32
  alcohol. They have less than 0.5 percent, which
• 23:34
  as probably many of your listeners know is
• 23:36
  technically what the threat this for calling something,
• 23:39
  not an alcoholic.
• 23:41
  But then, also, yeah, the flavor profile, there
• 23:43
  was also this kind of, you know, social
• 23:45
  concern that even even if there's 0 alcohol
• 23:48
  at all,
• 23:49
  the taste to the in the and the
• 23:51
  environment of being and, you know, we we
• 23:53
  intentionally recreated a bar environment. Right? Music and
• 23:56
  a bar and, like, you know, that was
• 23:57
  what we intended to do. So there were
• 23:59
  definitely people who felt like just that environment
• 24:02
  could be potentially triggering for people and kinda
• 24:04
  move them off off course. So... And we
• 24:06
  we had
• 24:08
  you know, 1 star, Google reviews from people
• 24:09
  who didn't even go there, but just just
• 24:11
  did not like the the philosophy concept of
• 24:14
  being concept.
• 24:15
  So... And, you know, we're where we landed
• 24:17
  with that number 1 we were we we
• 24:20
  were increasingly clear and
• 24:22
  you know,
• 24:23
  vocal about which products were 0 and which
• 24:26
  products were, you know, between 0 0 and
• 24:29
  0.5. And and so we even... We had
• 24:30
  a 0 menu. So if that was important
• 24:32
  to people, they would only be looking at
• 24:34
  those types of products.
• 24:36
  And we also just landed in the in
• 24:38
  and embracing the fact that Wake was not
• 24:41
  gonna be for everybody and not gonna be
• 24:43
  for a lot of people, and we had
• 24:44
  to trust, you know, people's judgment. If if
• 24:46
  you and where we... And we even... We
• 24:49
  adopted this, I think on our website at
• 24:50
  some point, it was just like, if you
• 24:52
  think it might be uncomfortable for you or,
• 24:54
  you know, please don't come. Right? I mean,
• 24:56
  I if if it if it if it's
• 24:58
  if it feels like ambiguous or, you know,
• 25:01
  you're not sure, then air on the side
• 25:02
  of caution, last thing we wanna do is
• 25:04
  any harm to anyone or, you know, people
• 25:07
  trying to
• 25:09
  you know,
• 25:10
  improve their lives by moving away from alcohol.
• 25:12
  Yeah. Just these
• 25:14
  there's been. This is 1 of the few
• 25:16
  areas where I don't have a strong opinion.
• 25:19
  As far as this slippery slope whole concept,
• 25:22
  Mh. But I do have a few experiences.
• 25:25
  I mostly don't
• 25:26
  drink... I... Mostly drink bubbly water because it's
• 25:29
  basically free. Mh. And what... I'd like to
• 25:32
  get into this in it in a bit.
• 25:34
  But with d alcohol something that was made
• 25:37
  with alcohol is not cheap. And so this
• 25:39
  stuff isn't basically free. And so knows Matt
• 25:42
  is cheese. I am not gonna use rub.
• 25:44
  And I don't want not conservative. Calories either,
• 25:47
  but mostly I am cheese. But I was
• 25:49
  actually out Awake. I had a friend and
• 25:51
  Tom from Phoenix,
• 25:52
  and it was, like, 1 of these id
• 25:55
  situations. Right? It was a sunny Saturday. We
• 25:56
  sat outside. Mh And we we had lunch.
• 26:00
  And while we were eating, I had 2
• 26:02
  Ipa
• 26:03
  and I felt this non a bizarre. Yeah.
• 26:06
  Not... Well, obviously say Was there a way.
• 26:08
  Well, I just wanna I remind people. I
• 26:09
  had this
• 26:11
  bizarre
• 26:11
  like, paying to order a third, and I'm
• 26:14
  like, u. These aren't cheap. What are you
• 26:16
  doing? I didn't I didn't end doing it,
• 26:17
  but I was like, where is this coming
• 26:19
  from. There's no alcohol in this. Yeah. But
• 26:21
  I think the flavor profile is close enough,
• 26:23
  that it clicked something in my head. It
• 26:25
  didn't cause a relapse It didn't come close
• 26:27
  to causing a relapse. Yeah. But but there
• 26:29
  is something about that nostalgia.
• 26:32
  And
• 26:33
  I think that can... I I come down
• 26:34
  on that can be a good thing a
• 26:36
  bad thing. If you're. Grumpy and you've had
• 26:37
  a bad day and you have any sleep,
• 26:39
  and then you get this nostalgic pull to
• 26:41
  drink gin, that's probably a not a great
• 26:43
  thing. But if it... The circumstances are right,
• 26:46
  it can be great.
• 26:48
  Even beyond the wake, you you just... You
• 26:51
  mentioned that you'll make a Martini sometimes. Mh.
• 26:53
  Do you continue to consume some of the
• 26:55
  awesome products that you learned about on a
• 26:58
  regular basis. How you handle? Well, not on
• 27:00
  a regular basis, and that's that's another kind
• 27:02
  of interesting thing. I mean, like, and Christian
• 27:04
  and I both have remarked on this that,
• 27:06
  you know, we we created this bar, and
• 27:08
  we would go And of course we would
• 27:09
  drink the drinks when we were there. But
• 27:11
  then we didn't... We didn't... And and
• 27:14
  I mean, we probably have a lot more
• 27:15
  non alcoholic products in our home than, you
• 27:17
  know, the average person does. But I mean,
• 27:18
  but we didn't have, like, this big stock
• 27:20
  home bar of alcohol free, XYNZ and we're
• 27:23
  like every day or even every week. Really,
• 27:25
  you know,
• 27:26
  going and and making ourselves alcohol free beverages
• 27:29
  or grabbing a beer.
• 27:31
  So at at a certain point, it was...
• 27:32
  I mean, there there was... There's part of
• 27:34
  our thinking,
• 27:35
  you know, that,
• 27:38
  that
• 27:39
  that we were just weren't that interested in
• 27:41
  a alcoholic And we all... And it kind
• 27:43
  of related, we weren't then interested interested in
• 27:45
  alcohol free products anymore. Yeah. It just wasn't...
• 27:47
  It's like, it
• 27:49
  I don't know how to put it, like,
• 27:51
  we kinda just moved on. You know? And
• 27:53
  we were just like, yeah, Club soda is
• 27:54
  totally fine. I don't Don't, you know, have
• 27:56
  to have something else.
• 27:58
  And
• 28:00
  it is surprisingly expensive. I have had that
• 28:02
  same experience that you described where I've had
• 28:05
  an alcohol free beer, and I think there's
• 28:07
  some kind of chemical passageway in my brain
• 28:09
  that's connected between that flavor. Mh. And that
• 28:12
  sensation of relaxation. And, yeah, I don't I
• 28:14
  don't know if it's good or bad, but
• 28:15
  I've definitely had that feel Well, the nice
• 28:17
  thing is my... I attribute a lot of
• 28:20
  my over consumption to the fact that I
• 28:23
  had a buzz when I was making decisions.
• 28:24
  Mh. So the nice thing is you've had
• 28:26
  2 non alcoholic Ipa, you get that poll.
• 28:28
  Yeah. The order a third. Yeah. But you
• 28:30
  still got your senses about, you so you
• 28:31
  don't. Yeah. Whereas if I had had 2
• 28:34
  you know, loaded full alcohol Ipa. Totally. 2
• 28:37
  would have led to 12. Right? Totally. So
• 28:40
  I think that's a big part of it.
• 28:42
  Let's talk about the cost of these products.
• 28:44
  Mh.
• 28:46
  I
• 28:47
  maybe because of my cheap, but there was
• 28:49
  a period where I was like,
• 28:52
  this is so frustrating. We're trying to change
• 28:54
  a trend. We're trying to
• 28:56
  introduce something new to the culture, but
• 28:59
  I thought
• 29:00
  because
• 29:01
  an alcohol free bar or a bottle shop
• 29:04
  because their volume is probably so much lower
• 29:07
  Than a than a full liquor store. Mh.
• 29:10
  They must have to mark that product up.
• 29:12
  Mh. But what I've come to realize I
• 29:14
  think, and this is why we wanted to
• 29:15
  have you on. Is just the manufacturing of
• 29:18
  the product is so expensive. So it's not
• 29:19
  only like you're you're making an 80 percent
• 29:21
  margin on something you purchased really cheaply. Correct?
• 29:24
  That's
• 29:25
  correct. So so starting with the manufacturer, I
• 29:28
  the manufacturing process is more expensive. Number 1,
• 29:31
  it's virtually all
• 29:33
  small batch, and you have a few of
• 29:34
  these big, you know, beer brewing companies making
• 29:37
  alcohol for beer, But otherwise, they're all, like,
• 29:39
  startup up companies, you know, starting out doing
• 29:41
  this stuff, like, in their basement usually, and
• 29:43
  then they ramp up from there. So small
• 29:45
  batch, it's usually,
• 29:47
  nicely, you know, high quality, fresh ingredients,
• 29:50
  then a lot of times are even, like,
• 29:51
  dis instill, you know, herbs and things like
• 29:53
  that themselves. Mh.
• 29:55
  And so, all of that, and then they
• 29:57
  are they're nicely packaged and, you know, all
• 29:59
  all that as to the cost.
• 30:02
  For us, I mean, I I didn't... We
• 30:04
  haven't gone into this I don't know if
• 30:05
  you care to, but I had virtually no
• 30:07
  experience in the
• 30:08
  restaurant business when I started to awake. And
• 30:10
  so it wasn't until we were starting to
• 30:12
  go down the path but I started getting
• 30:14
  a spreadsheet and looking at the input cost
• 30:16
  and looking at the labor and looking at
• 30:17
  what we would need to charge
• 30:19
  for these things to try it to break
• 30:20
  even. And I was pretty
• 30:23
  I popping. And III was not proud to
• 30:25
  be selling cocktails under 14 dollars. Yeah. I
• 30:28
  mean, that was not what, you know, part
• 30:29
  of my vision for what this place would
• 30:31
  be like. But that... For some of the
• 30:33
  ingredients that was necessary. Yeah. Have kind of
• 30:36
  the the basic margin that a, you know,
• 30:38
  a bar that can survive would have.
• 30:41
  So that was... You know, yeah. And I...
• 30:43
  You know, hopefully, that will evolve... The market's
• 30:45
  definitely getting more,
• 30:47
  you know,
• 30:48
  diverse and competitive of and so that theoretically
• 30:50
  should bring down prices over time.
• 30:53
  But I... Like you said, it's it's in
• 30:55
  many in some cases, wine particular beer, Like,
• 30:58
  you start with the same process the alcohol
• 31:01
  based product goes through, and then you add
• 31:03
  this additional sometimes very sophisticated process of pulling
• 31:08
  the callback back out. So some... A lot
• 31:10
  of people and we got a lot of
• 31:11
  feedback about this and a lot you can
• 31:12
  tell them maybe you still start from some
• 31:14
  of these Google reviews they're like, you know,
• 31:16
  people are like Wtf f. Like, I paying
• 31:18
  15 bucks and you've taken out the active
• 31:20
  ingredient, You know, what is going on here?
• 31:21
  And I I understand that, that it it
• 31:23
  is where the market's is at right now.
• 31:25
  Well, some of us can remember what the
• 31:27
  alternative was. It was those 4 terrible tasting
• 31:30
  the, you know, bland options. So...
• 31:33
  Process of making them taste like you intend
• 31:35
  to make them taste is is is not
• 31:36
  easy. That's for sure. Yeah. You
• 31:39
  you mentioned
• 31:41
  2
• 31:42
  companies by name that I'm glad you did
• 31:44
  because
• 31:45
  from my limited knowledge, they are leaders in
• 31:48
  the non alcoholic beer category and that's the
• 31:50
  He 0 0 and athletic brewing. Mh.
• 31:54
  For me, He is a more obvious
• 31:57
  you know, case for the business model. Right?
• 31:59
  They are already 1 of the world's largest
• 32:01
  breweries, and they can easily go down this
• 32:03
  path, and they don't have to make money
• 32:05
  for file, and they can mh take chances
• 32:07
  of the I can't and see how it
• 32:09
  goes. And I, but, yeah, I don't wanna
• 32:11
  just dispatch In, I give them a ton
• 32:13
  of credit their
• 32:15
  advertising in f 1 in there... And Mh.
• 32:17
  All over Europe and all over American. I
• 32:19
  I think their leadership is really valuable not
• 32:21
  only He, but to the whole the whole
• 32:24
  non alcoholic category. Mh.
• 32:27
  Athletic is a really interesting
• 32:31
  you know, story that's different. Right? They're are
• 32:34
  they also... I mean, they're not as big
• 32:36
  as He as an overall brewing company, But
• 32:39
  in the non alcoholic category, or are they
• 32:40
  as big as they seem to be to
• 32:42
  me? Yeah. I believe so. I mean, they
• 32:44
  they... I think they're the the the biggest
• 32:47
  most popular, you know, kind of micro root,
• 32:49
  alcohol free, beer out there And
• 32:52
  know, in terms of just, like they're kinda
• 32:54
  the their valuation and the growth that they've
• 32:56
  had... Their there seem to be way ahead
• 32:58
  of the other
• 33:00
  alcohol free only beer brands out there.
• 33:03
  And I I actually, knew a friend of
• 33:06
  1 of the founders there, and they've just,
• 33:08
  you know, we have... We worked very closely
• 33:10
  with them when I was at awake, always
• 33:12
  super cool, super nice, you know, people.
• 33:15
  So I'm just I'm very happy with the
• 33:16
  success that they. I hope it continues, but
• 33:18
  they clearly figured out a way to balance
• 33:20
  this, like, you, kinda obviously, athletic, you know,
• 33:23
  kind a wellness type of thing with the
• 33:25
  alcohol free type of thing and
• 33:27
  and very good tasting beverages at the end
• 33:29
  of the day. You know? So
• 33:31
  yeah, Love love that brand. Well, is there
• 33:33
  is their growth... Is it, like,
• 33:36
  did they put the cart in front of
• 33:37
  the horse? Like, did they say we're gonna
• 33:39
  be this big thing and hope it itself
• 33:41
  did they have big investment capital or did
• 33:44
  it just grow like gang? Yeah. I think
• 33:47
  it's a little bit of all of the
• 33:48
  above? I mean, they... When we were starting
• 33:51
  and awake, they were already pretty far along
• 33:54
  in terms of getting a couple rounds of
• 33:55
  funding. And, we're clearly
• 33:58
  a very professional
• 33:59
  outfit.
• 34:00
  And I'm not saying, you know, like, a
• 34:02
  a little bit ahead of the game. Yeah.
• 34:04
  In that regard.
• 34:05
  And then, you know, I remember seen I'd
• 34:07
  do like, Triathlon, and they would have a
• 34:08
  tent. You know? And they said they just
• 34:10
  they they they knew what their market was
• 34:12
  Yeah. And they really pinpoint it very well.
• 34:14
  And it's now it's, you know, it's everywhere.
• 34:16
  Yeah.
• 34:17
  Yeah. That's great. I wish them all the
• 34:19
  best, and they have a delicious product. I
• 34:20
  can attest to that as well.
• 34:23
  There are
• 34:24
  generational trends
• 34:26
  that make the news that people talk about...
• 34:29
  They talk about millennials and Gen z,
• 34:32
  they're not having sex, like we... Gen Ers
• 34:34
  did. They're not drinking, like we... Gen Ers
• 34:37
  did.
• 34:39
  What do you have any theory on that?
• 34:41
  Like, is... Because because they're 1 of the...
• 34:43
  I mean, that those generations are 1 of
• 34:45
  the driving forces in non alcohol beverages shaking
• 34:49
  off. Right? Yeah. Yes. Well, so my daughter's
• 34:51
  17, and I don't know. I... I don't
• 34:53
  know if stop my head what generation she's
• 34:54
  a part of. I can I can say?
• 34:56
  So she's on kind of the. I mean,
• 34:57
  you know, the kind of the 20 somethings
• 34:58
  things, let's say right now. Right. And
• 35:01
  so I see a lot of this through
• 35:02
  her eyes and also some of the some
• 35:04
  of the employees I have in my health
• 35:06
  policy firm, etcetera. And I... You know, I
• 35:08
  think at the heart of it for 1
• 35:10
  thing, is that they see
• 35:12
  a world that is a horrific mess. Mh
• 35:15
  and they, you know, are realizing that it's
• 35:18
  now on their shoulders if they wanna have
• 35:20
  a better future to do something about it
• 35:23
  and that things like alcohol, I would say
• 35:25
  also the things like oppression and, you know,
• 35:27
  racism and sexism are just are getting in
• 35:30
  the... Or so obviously, from their eyes getting
• 35:32
  in the way.
• 35:33
  Just a happier, healthier,
• 35:36
  more fulfilling life that, you know, I don't
• 35:38
  know. I think we we lived through history
• 35:40
  as, like, you, through a a key whole
• 35:42
  you don't really kinda see what you're doing
• 35:43
  at the time. Yeah. What I mean? So
• 35:45
  we... Like you just say, we grew up
• 35:47
  with, like, you know, it was kind of
• 35:49
  expected that we were drink lot and and,
• 35:51
  you know, to some degree, I was just
• 35:52
  speaking for myself, it was expected that I'd
• 35:54
  be a little bit sexist. And... You know,
• 35:56
  I mean, grove in the south It's like
• 35:57
  that was just
• 35:58
  That nothing, you know, my parents raised me
• 36:00
  well and everything, but just I was in
• 36:02
  this mil you that, like, that's kinda what
• 36:04
  a white guy was supposed to be
• 36:06
  And, you know, now it's like, well, of
• 36:08
  course, freaking not. You know, and, of course,
• 36:09
  people can make these, you know, be this
• 36:11
  way in their lifestyle and of course, people
• 36:13
  or, you know, we come from all different
• 36:15
  places under diverse and, like, you know, that's
• 36:17
  that's part of a healthy and happy society,
• 36:20
  whereas I for us. I feel like that
• 36:23
  wasn't the default assumption. At least I would,
• 36:25
  you know, kind of as
• 36:26
  in the world that I grew up in.
• 36:28
  So,
• 36:29
  I think they're kinda like, this this has
• 36:31
  gotta stop and and alcohol is just gonna
• 36:34
  get in our way. Yeah. So they might
• 36:36
  not... So that that'll be interesting to see
• 36:38
  where this goes because they're not gonna have
• 36:41
  the nostalgic piece that we talked about.
• 36:45
  Non alcoholic beverage is gonna serve a different
• 36:47
  purpose for And so the... They probably don't
• 36:50
  want the 1 that tastes like gin. They
• 36:52
  want the 1 that tastes delicious right off
• 36:53
  the bat before you've die journey needed yourself
• 36:56
  into something bad. Yeah. So I think it'll
• 36:58
  be really, really interesting. Because there was out
• 37:01
  through white claw. I just like, I'm unemployed
• 37:03
  cons but we way. I came I went
• 37:05
  to her saying a concert was like, white?
• 37:06
  What is this? Like stuff? And now that
• 37:10
  I think there's actually alcohol free version, which
• 37:11
  you, why would anyone wanna drink that? I
• 37:13
  have no idea like could come okay people
• 37:16
  twice. All I wanna do is, like, go
• 37:18
  to a huge liquor store after we leave
• 37:20
  this podcast to, like, just brew just to
• 37:23
  view all the options. Yeah. And not that
• 37:25
  I have ever even tasted White claw, but
• 37:28
  now an alcohol free White claw because I
• 37:30
  mean, I'm disappointed that, like, Top chico now
• 37:33
  has, you know, Oh, I know hard hard
• 37:35
  so hard bubbly water, Like,
• 37:37
  I just can't imagine. Oh, that frustrate me
• 37:39
  too. You know? That was our that was
• 37:41
  my high end bubbly water. Yeah. And this
• 37:43
  Cheap ass over here I really wanted to
• 37:44
  drop a few
• 37:46
  Get that glass bomb I get that glass
• 37:48
  I was boost for water.
• 37:51
  Yeah. I think the whole white claw, that's
• 37:53
  a discussion for another day, but don't you
• 37:55
  think the Z folks are really pissed. Oh,
• 37:57
  yeah
• 37:58
  like, we just
• 38:02
  We that
• 38:04
  flat, rather un tasty.
• 38:06
  That was... Yeah. That was in our holidays.
• 38:08
  We had... Oh, we had to push a
• 38:09
  lot of z back in the bar. Yeah.
• 38:11
  Days. Yeah. Well,
• 38:13
  push that Z. Gonna got 28 cases back
• 38:16
  here and it's not moving.
• 38:19
  When when I think about social I back
• 38:21
  in my drinking days.
• 38:23
  It's amazing to me how many things I
• 38:26
  participated in,
• 38:27
  where I pretended
• 38:28
  the social I was for 1 purpose, but
• 38:31
  really, I I was just there to drink.
• 38:33
  Mh. Mh. Yeah. You know, everything was alcohol
• 38:36
  centric. Oh, yeah. You wanna go play part
• 38:38
  sure. I've never played. Sounds boring. They're gonna
• 38:41
  me be there. I'm there. Let's go. You
• 38:43
  know? Yeah. So
• 38:44
  1 of my questions
• 38:46
  about your experience at wake is
• 38:49
  because all of my socializing was so alcohol
• 38:52
  centric for a couple of decades of my
• 38:54
  life.
• 38:54
  If there isn't alcohol at a way like,
• 38:58
  what what's the big thing that's taking center
• 39:00
  stage? I know you tried a lot of
• 39:02
  different things? Mh.
• 39:03
  Is it the entertainment is that you mentioned
• 39:05
  drag show.
• 39:07
  Music? Is it food? Is it just the
• 39:09
  Ambiance? What what draws people in? Yeah. We
• 39:11
  had, you know, we had live music. We
• 39:13
  did we did try lots of different things
• 39:15
  to stimulate, you know,
• 39:18
  some excitement around what was going on that
• 39:20
  we had open mics. We had we had
• 39:22
  poetry read maybe did some comedy nights.
• 39:25
  You know, typical bars also to try different
• 39:27
  things to get people to come in and
• 39:29
  and, you know, get on the phone. Did
• 39:30
  you ever try half pressure egg shots? Not
• 39:32
  sure I have punched shots.
• 39:35
  That'd be a little confusing when. Yeah. I
• 39:37
  would.
• 39:37
  Mix messing is forget a second. Was a
• 39:39
  big chunk of our audience. Yeah.
• 39:42
  But, you know, honestly, I think the thing
• 39:45
  that people really wanted was... And this this
• 39:48
  was where it all started. Was they wanted
• 39:51
  to sit down with another person or a
• 39:53
  group of friends in have a conversation. They
• 39:55
  would remember and that, you know, that represented
• 39:58
  the best of themselves, Mh not the the
• 40:00
  water down glazed over alcohol, you know, fuel
• 40:04
  version of themselves. And so, you know, that
• 40:06
  that was the most beautiful thing. And people
• 40:08
  would come... And I, you know,
• 40:11
  share about their experiences, you know, with us
• 40:13
  there. And it was that was all it
• 40:14
  was. It's something simple. You know, it's...
• 40:17
  This is something I've been working a lot
• 40:19
  on recently in my life. It's, like,
• 40:21
  usually, I think it's not... Something doesn't need
• 40:24
  to be at it. Something needs to be
• 40:25
  taken away. Mh, you know, kind we dis
• 40:27
  if we can dis our lives and take
• 40:29
  away the haze and the things that think
• 40:31
  we need, we find that what we actually
• 40:33
  want is right there. Mh. You know, in
• 40:35
  front of us. And that at way at
• 40:38
  its best moments. Yes, maybe there's was some
• 40:39
  music playing the background. You know, we loved
• 40:41
  all... We have Dj We all have different
• 40:42
  kinds of things, and it was a lot
• 40:43
  of fun.
• 40:44
  But people just... I think wanted to have
• 40:47
  connection with other people. And
• 40:49
  it's amazing.
• 40:51
  Alcohol is often
• 40:52
  described as a truth serum,
• 40:54
  but
• 40:55
  my experience is socializing with alcohol.
• 40:58
  Were that
• 40:59
  people talked and didn't listen. Mh. After the
• 41:02
  second or third round, the volume increased. And
• 41:05
  and the story started repeating.
• 41:08
  And so it was the opposite of a
• 41:11
  serum for truth. Sure. You know, you're drink
• 41:13
  enough, and you is let's loosen up and.
• 41:17
  But but that connection that you described, he's
• 41:20
  elusive with alcohol whereas, if you're in an
• 41:23
  environment, like we discussed earlier where you feel
• 41:24
  safe here with people you alike and you've...
• 41:26
  And the Ambiance is comfortable. And like you
• 41:28
  said, background music. I think that lends to
• 41:32
  authentic a conversation that is otherwise, just kinda
• 41:34
  missing in our culture. Yeah. I mean, I
• 41:37
  hope that's something you're really proud of that
• 41:38
  you created a space that
• 41:41
  that. Thank you. I do. I I really
• 41:43
  appreciate that. I mean, I think many of
• 41:45
  at least the 3 of us have now
• 41:46
  been to wedding and other situations where people
• 41:49
  are drinking a lot. And this is not...
• 41:50
  Look, I was there. We were... Sure, you
• 41:52
  know, I I was there a thousand fold.
• 41:54
  So this is not a judgment.
• 41:56
  But,
• 41:57
  Yeah. Those conversations are not quite as interesting
• 41:59
  as they seemed back when I was when
• 42:00
  I was drinking. So a new perspective on
• 42:03
  that. Yeah. Oh, absolutely.
• 42:07
  The... I have a question about the business
• 42:09
  model. Mh. So you were in my mind.
• 42:12
  Correct me if I'm wrong. You are kind
• 42:14
  of 3 things. You were a coffee house,
• 42:16
  your bar...
• 42:17
  Non alcoholic bar and your bottle shop. Mh.
• 42:21
  It was just pointed out to me this
• 42:22
  last week. I was having a discussion with
• 42:24
  our shout sobriety group about non alcoholic beverages.
• 42:28
  And somebody said, you know, I think the
• 42:30
  bottle shop concept unless it is part of
• 42:33
  a liquor store that's also selling alcohol. Mh
• 42:35
  I think that's almost impossible
• 42:38
  and and the the
• 42:40
  alcohol free bar as a stand is very
• 42:42
  difficult also. Mh. Whereas,
• 42:44
  what you see a lot of now. Mh.
• 42:47
  Is full service restaurants that have a full
• 42:49
  service alcohol menu that also,
• 42:51
  instead of just having soda water. Mh. They've
• 42:54
  got 4 or 5 mock tails and 3
• 42:57
  or 4 non alcoholic beers and wines. Yeah.
• 43:00
  Is Is that is that the key to
• 43:02
  success when it's just rolled into a wider
• 43:04
  product line as opposed to where the standalone
• 43:07
  thing, you can only get this thing here.
• 43:09
  You're saying? I do. I do.
• 43:12
  So I think that's probably the case. And
• 43:14
  so I I do think that
• 43:18
  bars that, you know, or otherwise succeeding and
• 43:21
  can have robust alcohol free menu, you know,
• 43:24
  are gonna be the most likely to go
• 43:25
  to that. And, you know, there's somebody people
• 43:28
  and there's other restaurants in town that I
• 43:29
  really wanna give a shout out to for
• 43:31
  having very interesting sophisticated alcohol menus
• 43:35
  because that's that's probably gonna reach the most,
• 43:37
  you know, people.
• 43:39
  I do... You know, so III thought about
• 43:41
  this a whole lot. Right. And and when
• 43:43
  we were doing awake, the alcohol free bottle
• 43:45
  shops were actually what was really taking off.
• 43:48
  Really in getting some investment
• 43:51
  in terms of kinda on the consumer of
• 43:52
  the equation, not the product side, but in
• 43:54
  terms of the different facets of our business,
• 43:57
  that was the 1. And I really admired
• 43:58
  the simplicity of that model was I was
• 44:00
  dealing with the complex of our 3 threefold
• 44:02
  model that included of our restaurant.
• 44:05
  But now, I see that some of those
• 44:07
  companies
• 44:08
  that appear to be thriving at the time
• 44:10
  we're now closing. And so I... I'm not
• 44:11
  sure how much runway there is for the
• 44:14
  alcohol free only bottle shop
• 44:16
  model. III do think that the awake model
• 44:20
  could work. And part part of the reason
• 44:22
  we did it the way we did was
• 44:23
  we owned the space and so we we
• 44:25
  were paying for it all the time. So
• 44:26
  we wanted to offer
• 44:29
  potentially money generating things from going on all
• 44:31
  the time. So that's where we had the
• 44:32
  coffee in the morning basically in the alcohol
• 44:34
  free bar in the afternoon,
• 44:37
  I think with a... You know, somebody with
• 44:39
  better expertise in the bar restaurant business,
• 44:42
  I e some where I had none.
• 44:45
  And also, you know,
• 44:46
  the the time, so the the lifestyle of
• 44:49
  of a alcohol free bar owner is the
• 44:52
  same as a regular bar owner. Meaning nights
• 44:54
  at the weekends, and I have a family,
• 44:56
  and I have other things going on in
• 44:57
  my life. And so I simply just couldn't
• 44:58
  be there enough to make it work. And
• 45:01
  other other variables, you know,
• 45:03
  I think, obviously, that they could have gone
• 45:05
  differently. So I wouldn't give up on that
• 45:07
  model, but it's... You really gotta stick every
• 45:10
  single landing on every single have to jump
• 45:12
  if it's gonna survive. And and, you know,
• 45:15
  somebody else might be able to do that,
• 45:16
  but not me. When you go to a
• 45:18
  restaurant,
• 45:19
  not that isn't, you know, solely alcohol, non
• 45:23
  all la restaurant. Mh.
• 45:25
  Do you flip to that that menu that
• 45:27
  part of the menu and see what they're
• 45:28
  offering are? Absolutely.
• 45:30
  Absolutely. And it and and can you make
• 45:31
  any correlation between... This is a great restaurant
• 45:34
  and they seem to be driving and oh,
• 45:36
  by the way, they're paying attention to this
• 45:37
  this segment of the clients I think so.
• 45:40
  I... You know, and there's, like, in in
• 45:41
  Dc where I go a lot. There's there's
• 45:43
  a couple of really good, like Hamilton comes
• 45:45
  to mind as a restaurant I went and
• 45:46
  I was like wow. They have a really...
• 45:47
  That's a great, you know, place. And doing
• 45:49
  well and they have a great alcohol menu.
• 45:51
  And then other places it isn't this is
• 45:53
  a broader,
• 45:54
  again,
• 45:56
  I don't wanna... Anybody who trying to do
• 45:57
  anything, you know, that is
• 46:00
  supporting alcohol freedom. I'm all for it. It
• 46:03
  is disappointing, personally speaking to go to the
• 46:06
  alcohol free section of a menu, and it
• 46:07
  is Shirley Temple, orange Juice, club soda, You
• 46:10
  know, And it's it's just... They've clearly haven't
• 46:12
  actually invested any thought. Yeah. Get into what
• 46:15
  they're offering people. And so...
• 46:17
  And III do love club Club soda. But
• 46:19
  I I also... I to me, the the
• 46:22
  part about that that is the most for
• 46:24
  frustrating, and we dealt with this when we
• 46:26
  opened a wake is we said we had
• 46:28
  alcohol free products, and they said, okay. It's
• 46:29
  gonna be high sugar, you know, juice for,
• 46:32
  you know,
• 46:33
  and it it it it it's not... It
• 46:35
  doesn't have to be It can be actually
• 46:37
  be healthy, you know, relatively low sugar.
• 46:40
  Beverages if they put some thought into how
• 46:43
  they're crafted. Mh.
• 46:44
  Yeah. Because those... There are some canned mock
• 46:46
  tails that are really high sugar that we've
• 46:49
  had. Yeah. At family gatherings before. Yeah. And
• 46:53
  the kids drank I'm gonna like, oh, my
• 46:55
  god. That's worse than soda.
• 46:57
  Yeah. Because you were like, I'm not touching
• 46:59
  them. Yeah.
• 47:01
  Well, high too. Like club So. Yeah.
• 47:04
  But I love it with a... I love
• 47:05
  it when it's fan up too though. Yeah.
• 47:07
  Yeah. I just think it's it's such an
• 47:10
  opportunity. I mean, if you've got 8 people
• 47:12
  going out to dinner together. Mh. In in
• 47:14
  today's world, the likelihood that 1 of the
• 47:16
  8 is alcohol free, relatively high. Like, we're
• 47:20
  we're... Mh. We're getting to a point where
• 47:21
  that's normal No shame. Yeah. There's no shame.
• 47:24
  And I why you choose to do. That's
• 47:26
  right. And if you don't have something on
• 47:28
  your menu to cater to person, I just
• 47:29
  think it's a huge lost opportunity. Totally. My
• 47:31
  opinion doesn't come. It did when I was
• 47:33
  newly sober came from a place of anger
• 47:35
  and frustration and being left out. Mh. And
• 47:38
  now it's more what are you doing dude
• 47:40
  like? Yeah. Pay. 8 bucks 10 bucks for
• 47:42
  a nice piece. All free drink and you're...
• 47:44
  Now Gonna get, you know, free or 2
• 47:46
  dollar club soda instead because you don't have
• 47:48
  anything for me. That's right. That's right.
• 47:52
  Okay. So
• 47:53
  here... So I'm I'm all upside on everything
• 47:56
  we've talked about. Here's where I get confused.
• 47:58
  Mh. And I do still get a little
• 48:00
  bit frustrated and the
• 48:04
  alcohol free
• 48:05
  market. Mh.
• 48:07
  Includes... And I don't even know if I'm
• 48:08
  using these terms. Right? But
• 48:11
  there is an emerging market for beverages with
• 48:14
  adapt antigens in them. Mh things with big
• 48:16
  words like
• 48:18
  Uganda,
• 48:20
  and Rei mushrooms.
• 48:21
  And, of course, the ones that we we
• 48:23
  know a little bit about Thc and Cbd.
• 48:27
  You see mushroom oil in our fridge We
• 48:28
  do? Is it good? It's good Inflammation. No.
• 48:31
  No. You. But joey I do. Okay. Good.
• 48:35
  From. Should should. So should they be eating
• 48:37
  there? No.
• 48:39
  So
• 48:41
  these things that are popping up in
• 48:44
  in
• 48:45
  alcohol free beverages?
• 48:47
  Are they... Should they be a concern?
• 48:50
  Is it case by case. Like, what are
• 48:52
  we looking at? Yeah. Well, so I... For
• 48:55
  for me, alright. All of this is just
• 48:57
  my perspective. I mean, number 1, I think
• 48:59
  Thc is a little different because it's clearly
• 49:02
  psycho active, You know, And I'm,
• 49:04
  I don't personally choose to use. I don't
• 49:07
  have judgment for those who do. But I
• 49:10
  I... For me, it is it is ind
• 49:12
  into.
• 49:13
  And and, you know, I wouldn't drive on
• 49:15
  it, and of course, all that kind of
• 49:16
  stuff. The other things, I think it's it's,
• 49:19
  you know, some seem to have some physiological.
• 49:22
  I have
• 49:24
  drank drinks with Cbd, and sometimes I've even
• 49:26
  added Cbd to drinks and I think I
• 49:29
  feel a relaxing kind of feeling. Doesn't seem
• 49:32
  to mess with my mind much, and That
• 49:34
  that I think is kind of the consensus
• 49:36
  of of its properties.
• 49:38
  So I'm I'm kind of okay with that,
• 49:40
  and and the other thing you mentioned, I
• 49:42
  I... For me, the issue is
• 49:44
  is not so much good or bad. It's...
• 49:47
  What's effective and what's just being kind of
• 49:49
  marketed as effective. And and and, you know,
• 49:51
  and my wife and I have lots of
• 49:53
  discussions about this, and she's has medical training.
• 49:56
  And, you know, the the sort of traditional
• 49:58
  viewers, like, well, if, you know, it's gone
• 50:00
  through clinical trials and as Fda approved, then
• 50:03
  it's effective and if it hasn't then basically,
• 50:05
  it's not you know, but then you go
• 50:07
  and you look at the history of a
• 50:08
  lot of these, you know, trials and and
• 50:10
  a lot of them are sponsored by, you
• 50:12
  know, gazillion dollar companies and it's like, how
• 50:15
  much can we really that, and there's a
• 50:16
  lot that's wrong with the western medical model.
• 50:18
  We won't go into all of that. So
• 50:20
  so just because something doesn't fit the criteria
• 50:22
  of the traditional western model does not mean
• 50:24
  that it's not a active. And so that
• 50:26
  to me is the big question with those,
• 50:28
  you know, additives and other substances,
• 50:31
  especially if they're if they're not of into
• 50:33
  or, you know, kind messing with your your
• 50:35
  brain in a in a in an obvious
• 50:37
  way. You know, are they really just kind
• 50:40
  of a trend in some of probably are
• 50:43
  or are they actually
• 50:45
  potentially healthy for you? And I think some
• 50:46
  of them probably are that as well. And
• 50:48
  if if they are, then then I'm totally,
• 50:50
  you know, for it. Yeah. The the concern
• 50:53
  that I have
• 50:55
  is
• 50:56
  part of my sobriety,
• 50:59
  a huge part of my recovery has been
• 51:02
  understanding what the underlying issues were. Mh. That
• 51:05
  caused me to drink medicinal. That caused me
• 51:07
  to choose alcohol as my m adaptive coping
• 51:09
  mechanism. Yeah. And there things like, you know,
• 51:13
  stress and
• 51:14
  self inflicted
• 51:16
  expectations. I would I I've talked a lot
• 51:18
  on the podcast about how, you know, I
• 51:20
  would set these goals for myself. And if
• 51:23
  you... I stepped away and looked at them
• 51:25
  objectively.
• 51:26
  There was nothing to them. Like, Mh I
• 51:28
  would set time parameters. I have to get
• 51:30
  this done by this time. I wasn't gonna
• 51:32
  make more money. I would gonna get a
• 51:33
  gold star in the refrigerator, like, there was
• 51:35
  nothing to my goal, but then I would
• 51:37
  drive myself, like, held toward that goal. Mh.
• 51:39
  And then I need to come down from
• 51:41
  that, so I would self medicate with alcohol.
• 51:43
  And for me, that was the biggest
• 51:45
  of the
• 51:47
  you know, underlying issues. Certainly once I had
• 51:49
  it had drink long enough, I started have
• 51:51
  problem anxiety and depression.
• 51:53
  And I would drink to medicate those not
• 51:56
  understanding that they were all... That the alcohol
• 51:58
  was also the cause of the anxiety and
• 52:00
  depression that's a a long road that many
• 52:02
  of us go on before we figure that
• 52:04
  out. So when I 1 watch Instagram videos
• 52:07
  and someone's trying this new beverage that's got
• 52:09
  whatever 1 of these things in it. Mh.
• 52:11
  And they say, I do feel more relaxed.
• 52:13
  You know, I'm gonna I'm gonna have this
• 52:15
  after work. Mh. My concern is,
• 52:18
  isn't that just another form of self medication,
• 52:20
  and are we just hopeful
• 52:23
  that it's not as strong and dead Leah
• 52:25
  alcohol. And and I know I'm... You've already
• 52:28
  semi answered the question. I just wonder if
• 52:30
  you would respond to my Yeah. Concern. Yeah.
• 52:32
  I hear your concern. And so so I
• 52:34
  a couple. I mean number 1 is that
• 52:36
  I I believe. So I I'm a Zen
• 52:39
  buddhist, and that... That actually is a big
• 52:40
  part of the reason that I drinking and
• 52:42
  part of that path and exploring
• 52:44
  different,
• 52:46
  principles and ethics in in that, you know,
• 52:50
  tricky vision,
• 52:52
  also, very into mindfulness
• 52:54
  meditation and,
• 52:55
  believe in the power of mindfulness to heal,
• 52:58
  including heal myself. So
• 53:01
  I,
• 53:02
  a big reason that I quit drinking alcohol
• 53:04
  was because I felt like it was getting
• 53:07
  in the way of me seeing my self
• 53:09
  and my problems and my, you know,
• 53:12
  issues
• 53:13
  for what they were as clearly as I
• 53:15
  could and I I wanted to be with
• 53:17
  my life, you know, as unfiltered as possible.
• 53:20
  And I wanted to,
• 53:22
  you know, address and reconcile with my challenges
• 53:24
  and in my relationships,
• 53:26
  know, as as directly in an unfiltered in
• 53:28
  in, you know, real and authentic and true
• 53:30
  way as I possibly could. No question alcohol
• 53:34
  was in the way of that.
• 53:36
  You know, whether or not other things are
• 53:38
  in the way of that I think tend
• 53:39
  to get a little more subjective and comes
• 53:42
  down to personal choice. And comfort level. And
• 53:44
  so... And 111 way that I look at
• 53:46
  it, which is you didn't ask directly, but
• 53:48
  but as part of how I think about
• 53:50
  this question.
• 53:51
  Is that some some people I see say,
• 53:55
  well, what was designated
• 53:57
  as you know, part of Richard Nixon were
• 53:59
  on drugs in 19 7 too is all
• 54:02
  the same to me as alcohol. Right? And
• 54:04
  and everything that wasn't is okay. Mh. Including,
• 54:08
  like, cigarettes. Mh. And coffee.
• 54:11
  And so that's 1 way to draw a
• 54:13
  line between what we think is, you know,
• 54:15
  helping us be clear minded about things in
• 54:17
  what isn't.
• 54:18
  I think the the the truth of what
• 54:21
  is actually, you know,
• 54:24
  cloud our minds and what isn't is is
• 54:26
  much more ambiguous and subjective.
• 54:29
  And worthy of, you know, some some,
• 54:33
  investigation, you know, and not just buying into
• 54:35
  what the kind of prevailing paradigm is at
• 54:38
  the time. So
• 54:40
  again, for me, the decision about a substance
• 54:43
  is, okay. Well, if I find... And and
• 54:45
  it's our to know. So I'm not necessarily
• 54:47
  getting it right even for myself. But if
• 54:50
  I find something is
• 54:52
  you know, getting in between me and the
• 54:55
  reality of my life and the reality of
• 54:57
  my emotional problems and the difficulties in my
• 54:59
  relationships and my ability to be a present
• 55:02
  parent
• 55:03
  you know, then I don't wanna do that
• 55:05
  thing. If I could figure out that's what
• 55:06
  it's doing.
• 55:08
  Things that don't do that and might actually
• 55:10
  help me,
• 55:12
  be present, be calm, be, you know,
• 55:16
  authentic in the moment with my problems with
• 55:18
  the people I interact with, then I... You
• 55:21
  know, I'm open to trying those things. If
• 55:23
  that's,
• 55:24
  what they're pointing to. So... But again,
• 55:28
  even I figuring out what that is for
• 55:29
  me is imperfect. So I'm not gonna figure
• 55:33
  what that is for other people. You know,
• 55:35
  they're gonna have to figure it out for
• 55:37
  themselves. Well, and I think to a great
• 55:38
  extent it would be helpful if
• 55:40
  peep... If we all stopped relying on the
• 55:41
  government to figure that out for us. Mh.
• 55:44
  Like, you you pointed out, there seems to
• 55:46
  be this line drawn and these substances are
• 55:48
  bad, and these are good. I had had
• 55:50
  a really
• 55:51
  interesting conversation just earlier this week with someone
• 55:54
  who has had a really bad experience with
• 55:57
  Cra. Mh. Which is something I didn't know
• 55:58
  a lot about, but I've run into enough
• 56:00
  people that have have had this experience, but
• 56:02
  this is something you can buy in gas
• 56:04
  stations. I... Yeah. It's a team.
• 56:07
  Yeah. And and I've had enough number of
• 56:09
  people tell me, you know, what a kind
• 56:12
  of a train wreck made out of their
• 56:14
  relationships and Mh. And they're... And and it's
• 56:17
  tear difficult to get off of, I guess.
• 56:19
  It's Yeah. It it may not have the
• 56:21
  same physical withdrawals as alcohol does, but it's
• 56:24
  just very very difficult to quit. And so
• 56:27
  I think a focus on, what's the problem
• 56:30
  that we're using the substance to try to
• 56:31
  solve, and is there a different way to
• 56:33
  solve it without the substance, Mh. Much of
• 56:35
  what you're talking about
• 56:37
  with your your your practice and your ability
• 56:41
  to, you know, analyze your relationships and your
• 56:43
  own well b seeing. I think that's the
• 56:45
  key. I think any anytime I watch an
• 56:47
  Instagram video, and I see some, oh, I
• 56:49
  do feel calm, and I think well I
• 56:50
  gotta jump on that.
• 56:52
  That just scares me personally? Like, what's making
• 56:55
  me not calm? Like, can we address that
• 56:56
  as opposed to
• 56:58
  what what thing can I lay down my
• 57:00
  credit card to make that the lack of
• 57:02
  calm go away?
• 57:04
  So I think the looking
• 57:06
  inside is is big.
• 57:08
  Bill, you mentioned that you're and buddhist.
• 57:11
  You have a really exciting project that you've
• 57:13
  been working on for some time now. You
• 57:15
  have a book that's being published.
• 57:17
  This coming March, March of 20 25
• 57:20
  called the empty path.
• 57:22
  Tell us about it. Thank you. So well,
• 57:24
  the the Id actually started right around the
• 57:26
  time I was closing awake,
• 57:28
  and
• 57:29
  1 thing that I realized at that time
• 57:32
  was that
• 57:33
  in my quest for, you know, fulfill and
• 57:36
  peace in my life. I was constantly adding
• 57:39
  more things, more practices, more ideas, more
• 57:43
  you know, going to places and and more
• 57:47
  activity in the form of awake. And I
• 57:49
  truly don't regret or doing awake. It was
• 57:51
  really a wonderful
• 57:52
  all told.
• 57:54
  But it was, you know, a I thing
• 57:56
  that I simply added on to every other
• 57:58
  current thing that was going on in my
• 58:00
  life. And I I found that, you know,
• 58:02
  maybe it was time to take a different
• 58:04
  approach into to
• 58:06
  lessen the things in my life and try
• 58:08
  to sort of pair back,
• 58:10
  know, these things that I told myself. I
• 58:12
  needed to find out what was... What's left
• 58:14
  kind of underneath. And so the empty path
• 58:17
  is is the the sub title is finding
• 58:20
  fulfillment through the radical art of lessen. Mh
• 58:22
  And so it's taking
• 58:24
  a look at mindfulness practices and a little
• 58:27
  bit of boot is teaching, but, you know,
• 58:30
  explained in a, a way that hopefully, you
• 58:32
  know, you don't need to background in buddhism,
• 58:33
  are certainly to be a buddhist to understand.
• 58:35
  And then applying that to different aspects of
• 58:38
  our life, like, our work and our family
• 58:40
  and our
• 58:42
  emotional challenges, and I do talk about my
• 58:45
  experience with alcohol and and certainly about, you
• 58:47
  know, my experience with wake,
• 58:49
  through it. So there's an inter reading of
• 58:52
  in an effort to make this a very
• 58:54
  practical
• 58:55
  application of some of these ideas that might
• 58:57
  feel a little bit esoteric at first.
• 59:00
  That's great. I'm super excited to read it.
• 59:03
  I think it's fascinating meeting that
• 59:06
  more and more of the people that we
• 59:08
  meet that are seeking an alcohol free lifestyle
• 59:11
  are doing so because they've fall and victim
• 59:15
  to what I think is being called now
• 59:17
  hustle culture. Right? Mh. This idea of more
• 59:20
  and more and more. And if nobody else
• 59:22
  is driving me. I'll just drive myself to
• 59:25
  the to the brink of a mental breakdown.
• 59:27
  And so,
• 59:28
  I think that message is very timely, and
• 59:32
  we're very excited to have you on and
• 59:33
  be able to do our little part to
• 59:35
  promote the book. We will put a link
• 59:37
  in the show notes
• 59:39
  to billy dot com where you've got,
• 59:42
  the initial kind of announcement about the book
• 59:44
  and where as goes on, people will be
• 59:45
  able to find more and figure out when
• 59:47
  it's time to to get on the pre
• 59:49
  order in the order list. Right? That's right.
• 59:51
  Yep. That'll be the the weird place to
• 59:52
  get that and a little bit about the
• 59:55
  meditation teaching that I'm doing now and some
• 59:56
  other things that have going on, folks will
• 59:58
  find there as well. That's great. The empty
• 1:00:00
  path, the publisher is new world library we're
• 1:00:03
  excited for March of 20 25.
• 1:00:06
  Billy, thank you so much for coming on
• 1:00:07
  the podcast. I think your your experience
• 1:00:11
  as happens to us once we reach, you
• 1:00:13
  know, the,
• 1:00:14
  the middle age that we've already used. But
• 1:00:16
  the experience starts to pile up. And when
• 1:00:19
  we do something meaningful with those experiences, and
• 1:00:21
  we have insights to share. You are just...
• 1:00:23
  You're a blessing to Sherry and I as
• 1:00:25
  a friend, but you're a blessing to our
• 1:00:27
  community, not just in Denver, but in a
• 1:00:29
  much broader sense, and we hope you keep
• 1:00:31
  sharing what you're learning with the world. Thanks
• 1:00:33
  for being here, Billy. Thank you, matt. Thank
• 1:00:34
  you Sharing your support and friendship. Means a
• 1:00:36
  lot to me too. Glad it be on.
• 1:00:40
  Before you go, we hope you'll consider these
• 1:00:42
  3 resources.
• 1:00:43
  If you love or loved an alcoholic, we
• 1:00:46
  offer support and connection in our of recovery
• 1:00:48
  group. Check us out at echoes of recovery
• 1:00:51
  dot org. If you are a high functioning
• 1:00:54
  alcoholic like seeking meth fits and connection in
• 1:00:56
  early sobriety.
• 1:00:57
  We're ready for you at shout sobriety dot
• 1:01:00
  org. No matter who you are, something for
• 1:01:02
  you in our book. Sober revolution, evolve into
• 1:01:05
  sobriety and recover your alcoholic marriage. Go to
• 1:01:08
  sober revolution dot org. For my wife Sherry
• 1:01:11
  Sal, I'm Matt Sal. Thanks for listening to
• 1:01:14
  the intoxicated podcast.
• 1:01:17
  Dot