Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / Dilemmas & Decisions: Why It’s So Hard to Stop Yourself from Over-reacting in High-Conflict Situations
Transcript
- Speaker 1 (00:05): Welcome to, it's All Your Fault On True Story fm, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and deal with the most challenging human interactions, those with someone who may have a high conflict personality. I'm Megan Hunter, and I'm here with my co-host Bill Eddie. Hi everybody. We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California. We focus on training, consulting, and educational programs and methods, all to do with high conflict. In this episode, we're going to talk about why it's so hard to change how we handle high conflict interactions. In other words, why do we keep reacting and ending up in the same conflict over and over? But first, a couple of notes. If you have a question about a high conflict situation, send it to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or on our website@highconflictinstitute.com slash podcast, where you'll also find all the show notes and links. Please give us a reader review and tell your friends, colleagues, or family about us, especially if they're dealing with a high conflict situation. We're very grateful. Speaker 1 (01:18): So, bill, one question that's come in, um, a lot focuses on frustration. Frustration with one's ability to handle high conflict interactions, if not perfectly, at least in a more modulated way and with more confidence. So first, I think it's important to talk about why we often overreact or respond in a way that doesn't seem to work in these high conflict interactions. When we're dealing with high conflict people, we soon realize it's, it's really a world filled with dilemmas. Someone with a high conflict personality generally brings problems, not solutions. It's normal to respond, you know, and the way we respond to anyone, to any problem or issue. But with people with high conflict personalities, you know, we, we find that the interactions escalates unexpectedly on a typical day. So why is this, you know, we all have our defaults. We are used to focusing on what is being said or asked and we respond accordingly. Speaker 1 (02:23): Or we're, we are already frustrated and reactive ourselves. It's, you know, it can be really hard to divert from our own defaults and do that one extra special thing that will deescalate the situation, which is typically using an ear statement or asking for a proposal or maybe even setting a limit depending on the situation. So Bill, we're talking a bit about the dilemmas and decision list I've been using in my consultations and trainings lately, and even for myself. But I'd like to hear your thoughts on how to override defaults and, and do the opposite of what, what we're used to doing and feel like doing in these high conflict interactions. Speaker 2 (03:03): Well, I think a lot of it has to do with the brain, probably not surprisingly. Mm-hmm. and our brains are built to protect and defend us from threats and danger and to tell us to fight or to flee or to freeze. So I think our automatic response is, the fastest response is the amygdala in our brain tells us this is a dangerous situation and it activates, you know, our central nervous system response to fight, flee, or freeze. And so our bodies already headstart into dealing with this as a danger rather than just another problem to solve. And so in, in many ways, it takes some learning. Our brain, we have to teach our brain to not overreact. It's just another high conflict person. We need to use our skills and we can calm things down. But the amygdala takes some learning to, to know that. Speaker 2 (04:15): And the analogy I'd like to say is adolescence. In adolescence, people, you know, kids amygdalas are firing all the time and their prefrontal cortex is slowly kicking in and starting to send the message. It's not a crisis. It's a problem we can solve and creating neuron networks in the brain to calm the amygdala or maybe even tell the amygdala, you don't have to react at all in this situation cuz this is a safe situation. So in dealing with high conflict people, which most people aren't really used to, um, we have to teach our prefrontal cortex to tell our amygdala, okay, you can calm down. It's not a crisis. And to build those networks. And I think that's what we're doing in our trainings, like you said in your trainings, is teaching people all these different techniques to calm themselves down so they then can calm down the other person. And it just takes practice, practice, practice. I think for you and I, we're a little better at it than the average person, but I don't know about you. I still get caught by surprise sometimes, Speaker 1 (05:31): . Yeah, I do, I do too. But I have noticed, I'll have to say that, um, in the last two or three years, I've, I've noticed it's more, uh, it, it's easier for me to, to override that, that amygdala response with my prefrontal cortex, right. And, and stop myself and do, do the opposite. And it takes an a real awareness. And I guess is there a muscle memory in that, that response? Well, Speaker 2 (05:57): I think it's building the neuron connections. Oh, that's right. And it's so, so when you do two activities at once, the, the neurons that fire together at the same time think we're related and form a connection. They send out an axon and it hooks up with the dendrites of other neurons. And the more you do that, the thicker it gets, you get a mile in sheath that makes it like a superhighway. So someday maybe we'll be in a high conflict situation and our amygdala won't fire at all, cuz our prefrontal cortex will say, we've got this. But in the meantime, I think we can catch ourselves and calm ourselves sooner rather than later. Speaker 1 (06:43): So you're basically saying we have to get unhooked emotionally. Is that the, the key here? Speaker 2 (06:49): Yeah, we have to, we have to tell the amygdala you're not in charge. Uh, the prefrontal cortex is in charge. The left brain problem solving is what this situation needs, not the right brain defensiveness and, and, you know, getting ready to run and flee or fight with somebody. So, so part of it is practice and part of it is with practice you start to have this built in and it's, I think of it like a sport. You're playing baseball or soccer or something like that. You get better at it with practice. And so, you know, what makes sense is for people not just to think about these skills, but to practice them with people that they can practice with a lot like coworkers, family members, things like that. Speaker 1 (07:41): Yeah. And, and realizing that there will be those times when you don't even know you're in a high conflict situation, or interaction that you, you, you're just talking with someone and all of a sudden, you know, they, they escalate and they're angry or intense or they, you know, complain or blame you about something and you're totally taken off guard. And, you know, you do get your, your amygdala does get, um, it does hijack I guess it's the amygdala does the hijacking of the, the corpus callosum, right? The bridge over to the logic logical part of the brain. And so in that situation, you know, you may not be able to think very clearly, but it's at that point then you do have to step back and, you know, try to get emo uh, unhooked emotionally and, um, get that prefrontal cortex in motion. It's a decision, it's a, a thought you have to have. Um, you can tell yourself how to do this and how to, you know, it's time to step back. I have to calm down. I have to use an error statement, I have to do something different. Um, and I guess what you're saying here is the more that we do that, the more likely it is, it will become more Speaker 2 (08:46): Routine. Absolutely. Yeah. This stuff is habit forming, just like all our other habits. Speaker 1 (08:53): Interesting. So, uh, you know, that's sort of, of an on in the, in the moment technique for what we do in high conflict interactions. And I, it is becoming the most requested technique that, that people come to us about. And in all of our trainings, people wanna know, what do I do when I'm confronted with this person? Well, that's what you have to do. Speaker 2 (09:14): So in many ways we talk about the prefrontal cortex that addresses decision making, dilemmas, et cetera. So maybe you've got, you've got some lists that you talk about. Why don't you talk about that? Speaker 1 (09:27): Yeah, so in doing a lot of consultations with, with people, um, you know, kind of regularly recurring consultations with someone who's going through a really difficult time and in a high conflict situation and we're on that third or fourth consult and they say, oh Megan, I don't know what to do about this. And I'll talk about, you know, ask, well, did you do your dilemmas and decisions list? Oh no, I forgot . So, um, it's become a very valuable tool for even myself and for, um, and for those that, that are using it when they are confronted with that next dilemma. So it's not that in the moment what to do when you know your emotions are hijacked, but it's, wow, I I have to, you know, address this situation. I have to talk to my soon-to-be ex-husband about this really challenging issue and I don't know what to do. Speaker 1 (10:24): I don't know how to do it. I'm scared. I might blow up. I probably will say the wrong thing. What do I do, Megan? So I said, oh, let's let, you've got a dilemma, don't you? Yes. Well, what are you gonna do about it? , I'm gonna write a list. So, uh, the list just comprises of, of making a list of options. And Bill, you're the one that created this. So, you know, um, this is for our listeners more than I'm telling you, right? And it's making a list of your options of any option you can think of that, of how to handle this particular dilemma. And I really try to get folks to focus on what the core dilemma is because sometimes it's the, it's not really the core dilemma and they're not getting to the real issue. So once they do that and, and start writing a list of these things, then they can go back through the list and ask the same four questions as those four defining characteristics we talk about in high conflict world, which are all or nothing thinking, is this, uh, option all or nothing of my own? Speaker 1 (11:26): Right? Is it an extreme option? Is it, uh, um, is it coming from a strong emotion? Like is this an emotional response? Um, is it defensive? Am I blaming in this response? Is it, am I being passive aggressive? And you just cross out any of those that are yeses and you're left with the best options in a high conflict situation, the best option for you, the best option for the situation, and the best option for the person on the other end who may have a high conflict personality. Um, I, I've seen it over and over and again and watched the power of this where the, the person writing the list gains, uh, they get empowered and gain confidence in making this decision about what to do when they have this dilemma and they know it's, it's not likely to backfire. So, um, I've, I, I've had a lot of success with that and, um, I just, it's just one of those tools that gets you to stop yourself first also. Speaker 1 (12:33): So it's kind of a, uh, it has a dual benefit here because we often will go into these with just going on our emotion or some strong reaction or doing what we think is, is best without really analyzing it. So it's, it's forcing us to use our analytical skills and flexible thinking in order to get to a good solution. And it also seems to maybe extract some of our own emotion if we put some, you know, kind of ridiculous options on the list, like, you know, fire the person or , you know, whatever, and, and just get it out on paper. Then it's out, cross it off and you'll be left with some good options. So I, I bill, have you used this, um, a lot or? Speaker 2 (13:17): Well, when, when, um, I started teaching about writing a list, it was more general and as a way to kind of get into your left brain, like if somebody's upset, write a list and people would say a list of what? And I say, well, it doesn't even matter. You can write a grocery list and you'll calm down because you're kicking into your left brain with reading, writing, talking, listening kind of words and language. Um, but you've refined it a bit here. And I think that's great because it really, it does help you narrow things down as well as calm down and making decisions from a list is, is always, I think, a good way to go. Although after you've written your list, sometimes putting it aside, not even thinking about it, and your right brain starts thinking in the background of some more information you hadn't thought of and then you go back to your list and make an even better decision. Speaker 2 (14:22): But I think with dilemmas, I like, you know, the idea of ruling out what doesn't fit, like, like you said. So if it's emotional reasoning and like, fire the person or quit the job and that's fine to write cuz you're just writing your own private list. And that sometimes gets you loosens your thinking up. Like, like someone that's, that's having a hard time in at work writing down quit your job is empowering, like you said. And they go, I don't need to do that, or I don't need to do that yet, but just knowing I could gives me a little more sense of power. So I think, I think lists are a great way to go and I think working, doing consultations that that really helps people focus their attention and feel stronger. So I think, think you're, uh, on something good with that. Speaker 1 (15:19): Yeah, I really like it. I, I always encourage clients to, I I send 'em a template of, of the li you know, decisions, uh, dilemmas and decisions in the list, uh, with a bunch of blank lines. And I say, make a copy of this like an old-fashioned copy like we used to do in the past. And, uh, keep it wherever you, you know, under your keyboard or you know, on a file or whatever. So you have plenty of copies. So when you have that next big dilemma and you don't know what to do, you just, you can, you can do this on your own. You don't have to come pay for a consultation with us, even though we love that and we're always here for people, but you know, it, what we love to do is, is help people, you know, learn these skills and to, to be able to stop themselves. And I, I think that's really the key here is how do we stop ourselves before we escalate a high conflict situation. It is really powerful. Having done them myself, in my own dilemmas, um, I realized that, boy, I would've really escalated that situation if I had done this, what I originally intended to do instead of stopping myself and doing the list. And, uh, that's what I've seen with our clients as well is, is just, you know, making good decisions, uh, that will deescalate instead of escalate. Speaker 2 (16:41): Yeah, I think, you know, it really helps, helps slow the brain down to be writing. And I can think of many situations that a fight reacted to right away would've been good. Now, a lot of people say like, wait 24 hours before responding to a hostile email, and that can be good, but also the writing of your response helps you calm down. So what you're talking about really serves two purposes. One is calming yourself, but the other is focusing yourself. So any list, but, you know, putting it into dilemmas and decisions can really help even with some of the biggest, uh, decisions we have to make. Speaker 1 (17:29): Right? And often those decisions, one of the, um, options will be to write an email or to, you know, hold a meeting and you can analyze those options and, and, and ask yourself, you know, well if I, if I write an email, maybe, um, it's because I'm trying to avoid, uh, having that, that one-on-one conversation picking up the phone. Or if I use the, if I do intend to pick up the phone or have a, an in-person meeting, or I need to remember to use my, you know, to use ear statements or to use proposals or any of the other techniques. So, um, it's, it's kind of like dilemmas and decisions list making can lead into the other skills that are necessary in high conflict situations. Speaker 2 (18:13): No, I think it's, it's a good place to focus on. What's great about this and for our podcast list podcast listeners is you can use it right away. You can use it at any time, wherever you are, as long you've got something you can write on, whether it's paper or your computer, it's, it's, it's, it's a great way to help yourself without having to depend on others, especially when there's nobody else there. Speaker 1 (18:40): Right. I remember once get being, you know, kind of stressed out about a situation and I had one small square piece of paper and a pen and I, I wrote a list and then I wrote over that list and I wrote over it. Cause I didn't have more paper . I never could write, read the list, but it sure felt good doing a lot of writing because it can get, you know, extract that emotion. And, uh, writing is just a really, really healthy exercise. Speaker 2 (19:04): Let me just add something is a lot of times when people are stressed, they try to do nothing to not react. And I think what this is, is it's a good thing to do. It's empowering. Say you're not just sitting there stewing you're doing something. And maybe that should be a new technique. Don't be stewing, be doing . Speaker 1 (19:27): Oh, bill, that's so good. Speaker 2 (19:30): , these discussions always triggers new ideas, . Speaker 1 (19:34): Oh, I know. And, and, uh, I wish our listeners could, could have the time with you that I get because I've, I've, uh, I've been privy to your natural marketing, um, acumen all these years and it just, it just flows so naturally from you and it's, that's fun doing not stewing, Speaker 2 (19:51): Don't be stewing be doing and you'll be doing feel better you do something and writing a list and neutral something you can always do Speaker 1 (20:01): . Yes. And I always say if you, uh, if you can just get, you know, get shoved into your right, your left brain where you can think flexibly, you're going to be calmer. So it's basically, if you're in your left brain, you're in your whole brain. So it, it's, it's whole brain is a good place to be. Speaker 1 (20:23): Well, listeners, I hope, uh, you've gleaned something helpful and useful and, and I really encourage you to give it a try. And we thank you for, for listening to us. We know it's tough to be in these situations, but, uh, try, try doing a dilemmas and decisions list and let us know how it goes. Next week, we'll talk about confirmation bias in high conflict situations and how to avoid being fooled by high conflict people. Send your questions to podcast high conflict institute.com or submit them to high conflict institute.com/podcast and tell all your friends about us. We'd be grateful if you'd leave a review wherever you listen to our podcast. Until next time, keep learning and practicing these skills and be kind to yourself while we all try to find the missing piece. It's All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music, by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins and Z Moran. Find the show, show notes and transcripts@truestory.fm for high conflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.