Latest / Sukany4: The Walk and Talk Podcast / S2E5 - Karen Livesey - Avenham Park - No Whispers - Child Sex Exploitation and Child Criminal Exploitation awareness training

Transcript

S2E5 - Karen Livesey - Avenham Park - No Whispers - Child Sex Exploitation and Child Criminal Exploitation awareness training · Sukany4: The Walk and Talk Podcast

• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to the cavity of the podcast, where we walk, talk, and open space for honest conversations, connection, and change.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: Today we're in Preston walking through the beautiful Avenham Park with Karen Lipsy.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Karen is founder of No Whispers Community Interest Company, which provides child sexual exploitation and child criminal exploitation awareness training.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: Avenham Park is part of Karen's personal history from childhood visits with her grandparents to strolls now with her grandson.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: As we walked past the River Ribble, the Japanese garden, and the old park keeper's cottage, our conversation unfolded with every step we took.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: Karen's work centres on safeguarding, and our conversation explored the urgent need to raise awareness around child sexual and criminal exploitation, county lines, and the importance of speaking plainly.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: Karen shares tough truths with care and clarity, reminding us all that safeguarding isn't just for professionals, it's for everyone.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: So take a moment, take a breath.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's a tough one.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: So be sure to hit pause and take a minute if it gets a bit heavy.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: Let's walk.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: Hi Karen, how are you?
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm great, how are you?
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really well, thank you.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for your patience.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: I am I have to confess I am notorious at not being on time a lot, but I didn't anticipate the Preston traffic today.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Don't worry.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: So that when I text you seven minutes, I think that was like 15 minutes in the end, wasn't it?
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, don't worry.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: So I I know around here can be really busy very quickly, things can change very suddenly, so it's fine.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: Patience is a virtue and it's good.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: We've both got it, I think.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: So how's your day been?
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: You good, busy?
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: Were you taking a workshop this morning, did you say?
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I was delivering training online this morning with child exploitation.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: That was good.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's just not quite the same, is it, than in person?
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: But hey.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: So how have you found that transition from being in a classroom to online?
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: Have you had to change your material?
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, during COVID it was necessary.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: Because obviously we couldn't meet face to face.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: So it made me become um conscious about visuals and connecting with people and breakout rooms, and it's different, isn't it?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: Because you easily lose people.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: What you don't want is people switching off.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: So the more engaging online training is the better.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: So shall we rewind a bit and start with the name?
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so we're coming to the edge of the park here.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yes.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: We've come in a sort of back route, which is fine.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: What is the park?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: Avenham and Miller Park.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: Avenham.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: Aavenham and Miller.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: Two parks.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: Sat side by side.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: Which is quite nice, really.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's exciting.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I've never been to this part of Preston at all.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, Karen, where do we start?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: Can we start with what you do?
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: Can do?
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I am one of the directors and trainers with No Whispers CIC Community Interest Company.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: And No Whispers is focused on delivering training, awareness projects, campaigning, distributing resources, etc.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: All to do with child sexual exploitation.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: Gosh.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: Child criminal exploitation.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: County lines and safeguarding.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it's all that.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's what we do.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's that's heavy.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, how did you get into this sort of work?
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, when I was with the youth service, I had a role as an advanced practitioner, okay.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: Which was a county post, and I managed teams and staff, and I had a safeguarding role and responsibility, all sorts really sexual health, and working with very vulnerable young people.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I came across more than one case where we were getting it wrong basically.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I found it very frustrating.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: And when you say getting it wrong, what do you mean?
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: Well, misunderstanding the situation.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I remember having a conversation with my line manager.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: I'll give you a case study which might help the situation.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: Just to point out, this is the beginning walk, isn't this lovely?
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, Avenue.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: Isn't this beautiful?
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: Really stunning.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely beautiful.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: We lucked out with the weather, didn't we?
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's just gorgeous.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: Should we grab a quick selfie while we're here?
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe with the view from the barracks is absolutely gorgeous.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe come down.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: But um, yeah, this is a very, very popular park.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's got the tradition of uh egg rolling that goes right back to Victorian times.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: So children, families, everybody will hang hang hang at the top end of this lovely steep hill and roll their eggs.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: So it's absolutely buzzing on the Easter weekend.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: Doesn't this look like they look at everyone just lounging around?
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, it's such a popular place.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's beautiful.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_02: It is, it's really bonny.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, there was a young girl whose Asian parents had separated and they lived in different places.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: And there was a case where she was going into college, she was 15, and college, well, school, high school, whatever were saying she keeps missing, going missing.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I was brought in to help sort this issue out.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: And dad said, Well, she's at mum's.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: Mum said, No, she's at yours.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: And they said, Well, you're at college or at school, she was in none of those places.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: This young girl had um an older boyfriend that she'd found, and his mother had got a new boyfriend down south, so this house was completely free every weekend.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I see.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_02: So then this young lad brings her in and other girls and plies them with drink and alcohol and all the rest of it, and we're sexually abusing them.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: Then, of course, there's the links to older men.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, this young girl stole 600 quid from her father's bank account.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: There were inappropriate sexual images on Facebook and on the internet.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: And when I raised this with my manager, I said, You know, one of those issues would concern me.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: So these images were on the dad's.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_02: No, on her phone and shared on Facebook, etc.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: So um, yeah, my manager at the time didn't really understand the exploitation abuse, and he said, But she's nearly 16.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my gosh.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: I said, You're missing the point, you are absolutely missing the point.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I remember that case really well because she was then assigned to a a newly a newly qualified social worker that was absolutely useless and marked her as not of a concern, completely wrong.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_02: So it prompted me to do further training.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: So I started to work with Safe and Sound and PACE, which is parents against child exploitation and Bernardo's.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: And doing all this training, I thought, do you know what?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: I want to do more.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: And was is that all based in Preston?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: The training, no, it was all over the place.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay, yeah.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um so then I left the service and set up as an independent trainer with a real focus on child sexual exploitation.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: Right, but then going to government conferences, reading serious case reviews, and the young people and families I came across, I thought actually there's more to this because this can link.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, child sexual exploitation on its own can happen in about nine or ten different ways, right?
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_02: But as well, it can link to county lines, child criminal exploitation of young people, yeah, human trafficking, modern slavery, neglect, missing from home.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: I thought it needs to be more which is where No Whispers was born about four years ago.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: Because that's the sort of breadth of training that we cover, yeah, and connecting different issues and people's awareness, and that broader radar is my phrase, always in training, widening your radar because if we don't, we will miss things and we will have this very narrow perspective, which is not healthy really.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: No, and this is such a complicated space, isn't it?
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's very emotive, yeah, there's a lot of having to almost feel like you're betraying your own family or you're betraying.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: That can happen because as you say, I mean, there was a report that came out last November about intrafamilial, um saying that social workers and others were concentrating on the celebrity exploitation and the church and the sports, rightly so, but missing the fact that exactly your point, it can happen in the family.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, of course it can massively.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, numbers have been reported in a recent report.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: And look where we are now.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: I love this place, right by River Rivel.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: We're coming up to.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't it gorgeous?
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's beautiful, gorgeous.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely stunning, especially to see just the river emerging as we go over this little hill.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's a shame it's not bright blue, but uh sometimes when it's rained, it's a bit on the muddy side, but you know what it's.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: But to be fair, when you come out in Preston and you see a river, you're not expecting turquoise.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: But it's unless over you is just gorgeous.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: The seasonal part of this avenue with the trees and the change and and and at night time there's a little lit.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you can see, you probably can't see it, but it's lit anyway.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's just so bunny, it's just lovely.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: It is, it's stunning.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, so just rewinding then to your journey.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, sure.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, how did you get into youth work?
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, um, my professional career began as a primary school teacher.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I was in London doing that for several years, yeah.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: And then there was a post advertised, uh, a county post to do with young people, yeah, and I applied for that at the time then my degree was recognised as being a qualified youth worker type thing, yeah, and I did more studies in youth work and all the rest of it, and postgrads, left, right, and centre, and all those sorts of things, but stayed in the youth service for 26 years.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, yeah and worked across all of Lancashire, different parts.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that's great.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then I decided to do a postgrad in uh leadership and management in social work and social care because I thought I'm a teacher, I'm an educator, youth worker, I've not got that social work perspective.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_02: Leadership and management is transferable skills, isn't it?
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought that's a good thing to do, do that post-grade.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: During that postgrad at UClan, somebody gave a talk about setting up as an independent business or as an independent whatever.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought, do you know what?
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna do that.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: That's what it is, and that's what inspired me to leave the service and go down the training, excuse me, training and consultancy route.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: What does um youth work look like?
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: What do you do as a youth worker day to day?
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: Just rewinding to that.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, youth work had a massive role with young people to do with activities, okay, positive self-esteem and empowering young people.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: And then when the government decimated as they did, a lot of youth clubs and centres, there was a huge gap.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: And isn't it interesting that nationally they're trying to reintroduce some youth things that core curriculum stuff and youth activities because young people have a voice in in youth studies, uh not studies, youth activities, and can choose and pick a whole range of things that they do and mix with different young people than being with a school environment.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um how do they get involved in the youth groups?
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: How do they find a youth group?
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: Now, yeah, no idea.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: But I left that a long time ago, so I don't know.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: Back then, a lot of youth a lot of local provision would have local youth centres.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: So some of them would be quite specific.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: What is happening now, which is quite good, is yeah, these um what do you call them?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_02: Youth zones.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: I think there might be about 15 up and down the country, and they're massive buildings with all sorts in them.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: And Preston's Youth Zone is opening very soon, actually, within a matter of months, and there's a climbing wall in there, sports facilities, arts, music, crafts, coffee books, yeah.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: Something like I don't know, it's it's free to attend and a fiver for the year membership, something ridiculous, but deliberately cheap to get young people in, yeah, lots of different services, lots of different activities, and a safe space.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so Chorley has a youth zone, uh, Blackburn has a youth zone, Manchester does, but Preston's is going to be opened very soon, which I think would be wonderful.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that sounds lovely.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so am I right in saying you did your um social work course at UClan?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I did a postgrad leadership and management and social work and social care.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: And how did you find that?
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: Were you balancing work and studying?
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: Indeed, I took leave to do the study because I had a full-time job, yeah, and I was really keen to do this piece of study, yeah.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I would just take leave and study at night at the weekends to get the coursework done.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, um, I was the only youth worker in a group of 32 social workers, so that was interesting.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: But um we'll go this way.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: That is interesting, yeah.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: But it made me yeah, question and challenge and think and rethink and yeah, and actually that raises more questions, doesn't it?
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because as a youth worker, would you expect people to be trained more in social work?
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think the other way around is needed to be honest.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, really?
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I do definitely.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: I think some social workers need the youth work skills.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, that's interesting.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_02: Listening skills of to young people, the empowering of young people, right, and the working with and not to.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think sometimes there's too much of that.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_02: So there's now fast track courses where people can become a social worker in a in a shorter space of time.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if that's always a good thing, I don't know.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: And is that to address some kind of shortage we have?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: Probably, yeah, yeah.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so we're we're potentially compromising quality, yeah, yeah.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: The usual conundrum we have.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, yeah, interesting.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah, this is a good part for training, I tell you now.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: There's layers and levels, they do staircases, yeah, staircases, and we're in the middle tier now.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's beautiful, but it is Bonnie, it really is.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: So, what is in connection with this park?
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think I've grown up with this park to be honest.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: I remember coming here as a little girl in about five with my grandparents, and over there, we've probably not got to today, there's a beautiful spiral path that used to be probably still is planted with lots of gorgeous roses, all of the wallflowers that I love.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right in the middle of the little sundial.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: So I used to run around the middle of the sundial.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but also certain times of year here, the smell of wallflowers is sense across.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's fantastic.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: So growing up and then bringing my children, and I now have a little grandson and bringing him and his family here, and it's just lovely because there's all sorts that go on here, all sorts of events and festivals, and and just time to chip too.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love it.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: I just love that there's so many people just getting their vitamin D hit.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and chilling.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_02: And that little coffee bar down there, yeah.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: A few years, not hundreds of years, but a few years up, it's been open.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: That's nice too.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's interesting, too.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: There, this you'll you'll relate to this one.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: There's a Japanese garden over there, and some of the big rocks were brought over from um Arnside and Silver.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, were they?
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, by a very entrepreneurial gardener who used to live on the park here.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: Right, brought these wonderful big stones over to make this little Japanese garden.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's a nice can.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_02: Which goes back to the 1950s, I think.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: Oh wow, yeah, yeah.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's good intel.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you see what can I say?
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I love doing these walls because I wouldn't know that otherwise.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'd just see rocks.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: You see, I say things like this to my partner because so who cares?
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: Well I care to do.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, I'm hanging the microphone.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: Clearly, yes, I clearly do.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: Trivial information that's interesting anyway.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: I care too.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: I love this stuff, and I love that we can hear the birds.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, this always brings me so much joy, especially because I've been on the laptop this morning.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so it's nice to get a leg stretch as well.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know it's good.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do you sort of look after yourself while you're doing this hard sort of work?
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think over the years within the youth services, we had lots of difficult cases, not just with child sexual exploitation, but all sorts of all sorts of cases, and I think it's learning how to be professional and compartmentalise.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because if you don't, you will burn out, yeah, or you will not come at the job with a true professional approach.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's knowing how to separate out and compartmentalize, and that's a skill you learn, I think, over years.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: Also, I think the need for somebody to listen to you, the way you can offload to share, it's sort of like non-clinical supervision, really, isn't it?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but somebody that you can share things with, and some people are good at listening and some people don't want to know.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I've decided I've discovered obviously along the years of who I can talk to, um, and I have supervision fairly regularly with one of my directors.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, and then there's other people that are in similar but different work, like domestic abuse.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, little Robin.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, there's any bunny.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: Is it beautiful?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: Oh that was cute, beautiful, yeah.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um it's good to stop and enjoy those.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, definitely.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: We're too busy rushing.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: Definitely that's the other thing, I think.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know, when I go for walks and go running occasionally, yeah, you're away from everything, no interruptions, just you and your mind and to process and all of that.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's how healing, isn't it?
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, processing, yeah.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, definitely.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so uh so through No Whispers, do you kind of organise any kind of self-care days for the staff or volunteers, or how do you work that out?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um yes and no, to some degree, people I think get it as we go along.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so there's training and awareness that we do to do with understanding triggers and what people need to do, what services are out there, because everybody's different and it's about finding what do you actually need.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so we I involve the staff in our we have away days, we have uh obviously our business meetings and things.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: People can always talk to me directly if there's something that's bothering them things, but usually people who come to know whispers are in tune with what we're trying to do.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: So some might have past experience and some don't, and some do, it doesn't really matter.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: The point is where are you in your journey?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and what do you actually need?
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, and ask for the support, I guess.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a variety of different levels of need.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: Some people just want to tell a story, some people want or need, you know, trauma, counselling support, etc.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, and sometimes we have uh we have uh Friends of No Whispers events about once a term, and we have guest speakers who come and do a shared lived experience, and as well as that evening, I have networking and different key agencies who are involved again to offer that support.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: So, victim support, for example, Trust House Lancashire, we support people who have been victims of abuse in the past, um, things like that.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_02: So, there's a supported environment without being finger pointing, if that makes sense.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: It does, and nine times out of ten, there's all sorts that come out of those friends events because they're so informal, and we've got guest speakers, we've got organizational information, we've got things at your fingertips, and then when people speak, people sometimes in the audience go, Yep, that's happening to me.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: Or I get that, and wow, and the impact is unbelievable, yeah, unbelievable.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so that can be very positive.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, it could I I'm assuming it can also be quite overwhelming and triggering.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, can be.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_02: Again, I don't know everybody, yes, sometimes in the room.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, there was one woman just recently actually, and she said she came over to us after a shared lived experience, and she said, You've no idea the impact you've just had on my life.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: Really?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: Clearly, I don't.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: She said, You have no idea.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: She's just sent a chill through my whole body.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: It was amazing because she said what what this particular woman said, she said that's happening to me.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: She said, and my daughter, she said, and so you've changed my attitude.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: She said, the way I see my studies, the relationship with my daughter.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: She said, You have no idea of this massive ripple effect that you've had just by that one evening.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: And then I saw her months later and she said exactly the same.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: And she said, Carrie, honestly, she said, You have no idea the impact of that and how strong that that piece of work was.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, um, yeah.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: That must be so affirming for you, knowing the journey you've gone through to get to where you are to set up your business, to spread awareness, to do the training, to bring the people in, to know that it there is some real life-changing stuff happening here.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I was on the you know, the vision of educating people so we prevent it happening to children and young people, and then of course, over the last three or four years, realizing that some people in the room, as adults, have had this happen to them, yeah.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: And where are is their help and support and movement?
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I just thought, actually, that's an important thing to recognise and support.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: Consequently, one of the women who shared their story with us, we did a presentation at UClans conference about the importance of people telling their story and then validation and the sort of therapy and yeah, that's support, really.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we passed.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: There's a statue, or it might be further on.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Lord Darby's statue that I want to point out.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: This is lovely.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: So this is this is the Japanese garden.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, isn't it gorgeous?
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, beautiful.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: It is beautiful.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: This whole place is stunning.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: And now I know how to get to it.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: You'll be coming again, won't you?
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's so convenient with the parking.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: And you can come into this park in three or four different ways.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: There's different entrances.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: London Road over there.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: You can come in.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lovely free parking, that's the other thing, good thing to know.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: Down by uh one of the schools down there, you come and walk down the Long Avenue, come on the other side, there's that side, there's this side.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's just fab.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: This is the old uh park keeper's house here on the left.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um I can't help but smile.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think anybody loves it at the minute.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's just fab.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: It is it's so good.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then go on you first.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was just gonna say, in terms of like child sexual exploitation, abuse, we're just not educated, are we?
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: No, and sometimes when you know something's off, yeah, but you don't have the confidence to voice it, or you don't have the language to voice it, you don't have the tools to call it out, and you doubt yourself.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: And also, we live in a world where we know that so many um abuses that are challenged do end up in a form of victim shaming, victim blaming, non-prosecution, non-advancement of any convictions.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's quite a scary space, actually, isn't it?
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's a hard space to navigate, and I can imagine some people who don't know you guys exist and may come upon you by accident and hear the stories, may have a moment where they think, Oh my goodness, that happened to me, and I didn't even know that it was wrong.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that happens a lot, that's very common, is it?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: Especially when you look at consent, yeah.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, the definition of consent, you've got the freedom and capacity to make that choice.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: You take one of those concepts away, and there's no consent.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: So the freedom, the capacity, which is understanding, and you make that choice.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: So a lot of people go, Oh, well, this happened to me, I didn't realise.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: Whoa, exactly.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: And there's another one which is an important one, which a lot of young people don't get.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_02: There's preparatory offence, sexual prepar preparatory offence, where sometimes young people are given drugs, alcohol deliberately by the perpetrator to stupefy them.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: Oh gosh, and then of course they go, Well, I can't remember.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: I was afraid exactly.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: Where's consent in that?
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: God, that's where is consent?
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you're absolutely right.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: There are the realisation, the connection, and I think one of the big things that we found in our workshops and projects that we do is that confidence and safeguarding understanding, and just this year, the lottery uh national community, lottery, national lottery community fund that's the way around.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_02: The focus for me is about parents, carers, volunteers to exactly get that the confidence in safeguarding the do's and the don'ts and the what, and it's happening.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: This is something I want to show you.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: The uh 14th Earl of Derby.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, now he did not agree with the suffragettes, he thought women did not have a place and should not have the vote, and he completely disagreed.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: And his statue was feathered and tarred during the times of the suffragettes in Preston.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's good.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: And one of our famous suffragettes, just off Winkle Square, actually.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: Her house is just off Winker Square, is Edith Rigby, yeah, who uh who was an amazing woman who did all sorts of stuff.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, it's interesting seeing his statue because it was feathered and tarred.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: Might say over here, I doubt it somehow.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: It might be that it would shame him, wouldn't it?
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: I doubt if it says he was feathered and tarred.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: There we go.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: But we've got it on tape.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, like Karen says, so it must be true.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love it, Karen, but you know this stuff.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: That story, as as you probably know, I'm a massive feminist.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, and I just love to know that.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: So you'll probably find something on the internet about him because it's yeah, we're quite interested.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, our lovely Preston suffragettes, you know.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: Shame on you, yeah.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_02: And then this is another little view.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: This is lovely when the fountain's flowing.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_02: This is another beautiful spot.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, obviously, nothing.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: This is such a great wedding venue shop, isn't it?
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't know why I always think about wedding venues, but you can just imagine a bride and groom just doing their things.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: This beautiful esplanade.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, it's just a look for it.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: Are we going down?
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I can do, we can do a loop down.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: Are we doing oh we're doing it?
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we've got loads of time, yeah.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, so I'm just sort of ruminating about this whole not being aware of the awareness thing.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, your training is amazing.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, thank you, and it's so needed.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: But how do we get the word out?
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: How do we tell people?
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: I have ideas, yeah, but I I need to get out more to be able to influence.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: So for me, yeah, in the degree courses of social work, teachers, police, health, all those key key people who come into contact with children, young people, families, that core chunk of training to be able to understand it, how it happens, what makes a child vulnerable, where and how it happens.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: Because some people's perception is well, it only happens to 12 and 13-year-old girls, well, it only happens in you know poor parenting environments, well, it only happens in Birmingham and London, well, it only happens in poor economic areas, and all of that is true.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_02: However, as we know, it can happen anywhere to any child, yeah, young and of seven, sixteen, seventeen.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, legally you become an adult when you turn 18, doesn't mean it stops just because you're 18 plus, but if you have that very narrow perception of oh, this is where it happens, you're gonna miss stuff, aren't you?
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, and also that lasting impact, that damage of going into adulthood, like say legal adulthood at 18, but actually you're still so vulnerable and you're still so open to being continue to be abused.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_02: And how many people in their 40s are the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse, which was led by the government, gave the opportunity for adults to tell their story.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: For some, it was the first time ever of where and how they had been abused as children.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: 7,000 people came forward to tell their story.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my goodness.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, for some, as I say, it was the first time ever.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: But the important bit was twofold, really.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_02: One to give them the support and referring that they may need, and two, where and how this happened.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_02: As a result of this investigation from the government, there were 15 different investigative reports that came out.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: So, to give you an example, the Football Association was one, Westminster was another, rather than Rochdale was another, um, the Catholic Church, the Anglican Church, so these different headings of where significant abuse and exploitation had happened.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: Then this was pulled together as a huge report and then a summary report, and it was presented to the government in 2022.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: Now the timing of that wasn't brilliant because of COVID and change of parliament and all the rest of it.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_02: However, yeah, what's happening now is some of the recommendations are being made to the government now, which is brilliant.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, things like the mandatory reporting of sexual abuse, like if a teacher or those in positions of influence sees that you know you should be reporting, and absolutely you should, yeah, you know.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: So I think there's the educational side of it, like I said, that I think that would be fabulous if people had this knowledge and awareness.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think politics is another one.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think the it's like this echo, it's lovely this, isn't it?
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, fabulous echo.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: Just thought I'd give you that bit of moment there.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um the criminal justice system is another one, and the youth justice system because young people get wrongly accused of things when they shouldn't, whereas actually they're being coerced, controlled, manipulated by perpetrators, and yet they're seen as committing an offence.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's very common and that shouldn't happen.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: And actually the coercer is still free, correct, to grab things.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: I think the other thing I think is the legal system, you know, the imbalance of Stuart Hall, for example, Granada TV reporter, it's a knockout.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_02: He raped three young girls in the 70s and 80s.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, he went to trial, he was found guilty.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I don't think he served more than three years.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: Now, what's that?
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_02: Those young girls in their lives dramatically changed and influenced, doesn't quite balance, no, you know, and there's a few things like that where you think you get more for dangerous driving than you do for violating somebody.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, and does it tend to be what are the statistics in terms of gender of victims?
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there are more women that report than men, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen to boys and men, and some of that is society's stigma because obviously some of the attitudes people have are things like, Well, you're a man, you should offend him, you know, offended the boss, it shouldn't be happening to you.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: Men don't get raped, well, they do, yeah, and very much the arena of exploitation and abuse for young boys and men can be within the counter lines zone because the deliberate sexual um abuse and invasion sometimes is part of control or loyalty by making things happen.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: So the statistically, we have more girls and women reporting than men, yeah, but the police have estimated there's about 500,000 abuse out there that maybe haven't been reported because that's the other thing.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: When she report it, it's just gonna happen.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: Not everybody has got that mental strength or choice or willingness or support mechanisms, whatever, to report.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot that doesn't go reported, yeah.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it's scary, isn't it?
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: You're kind of facing up to your bully, so to speak.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, yeah, it's frightening, and and this person has had a holding control over you and convinced you that or yeah, allowed you to believe that they are in the position of power.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's very scary.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: And part of the grooming process sometimes is the perpetrator will deliberately brainwash that child or young person, you know.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um if you tell, you'll be sent to prison.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: If you tell, you'll take away from your family, if you tell, we'll come and get you, you know, we'll hurt you, your family, your children, whatever, we'll torture how.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: So there's this real fear and threats that's very genuine.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they will do certain things like this.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: So, and then people say, Well, why didn't you tell?
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's not always that easy, actually.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's not always that easy.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I was just thinking, given given the nature of the work, go on, yeah.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um just let the cyclists go past.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: I know it's busy here, it's busy all sorts going on.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's so funny, it's so great that it's so well used.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what repercussions do you get as an organisation?
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: Do you get any from the people who are doing the do who don't like what you're doing?
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_02: The only not really, the only thing I've had is somebody deliberately trying to find out how we train so they can be three steps ahead.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my goodness.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that was interesting.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_02: Who yeah, it was a big event training, and people were coming in with groups to do this awareness raising, and there was this one particular guy on his own and didn't have a group that he was attached with, and I questioned and I went, Who's he with?
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody knew, but who is he?
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: And then eventually, as time went on, we found out that he was an independent and he was here deliberately trying to find out what was happening so he could be three steps ahead and he was a perpetrator.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um generally speaking, yeah.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: Generally speaking, no, I don't I I tend to know, maybe maybe I'm scary, I don't know.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: But that safeguarding thing is really key, isn't it, for yourself, for the people that volunteer for the people that are definitely finding a safe space to speak.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, where that even if it was just that one person, that one person it's happening.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, when we have our friends of No Whispers event, I make sure I know exactly who's in the room.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so we don't advertise it to the public.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: I will personally invite people and double check and you know make sure so I know exactly who, what, where, and when.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_02: Doesn't mean somebody's not got some weird and wonderful past I don't know about yet, but at the surface level at the minute, I've done the best that I physically can.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, if that makes sense.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: It does make sense.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't have it big, it's like 30-35 at any one time, which is small and connectable with with people in the room.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: Gosh, there's so many layers to think about, aren't there?
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: Because yeah, you don't want people to know what your training is about.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: No, I do, I do.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you do.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's more content that you train.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, what the heck?
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's about raising awareness.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, yeah, some people have said to me when we first started school, Karen, you need to be careful, and you need to be careful.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, oh, you know, and so we say, Oh, you know, but that's kind of my gut instinct.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, no, this is what I do, this is what I do, this is about raising awareness, and I'm absolutely blunt and the training that we've got.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we've got a CPD course now in child sexual exploitation, brilliant.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_02: Anyone can do that, as well as the more timber organisations, really clear about what we're offering.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think they just need to be up front about it and say it like it is, really.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_02: Either way, Japanese garden would be nice for that one.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that'd be nice.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, no, no, that is interesting.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because my gut instinct was like it needs to be secret squirrel because actually we want to protect everyone and well, I'm not exposing anybody so I can be clear about that point, but the training that we do, we're really clear, yeah, disrupting exploitation, grooming, sexual exploitation, yeah, counter lines, bang, bang, bang, that's what we do.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: And it makes complete sense now you've said said it out loud because actually, how else are you can spread the awareness and how else will people like me learn and get curious and want to learn more?
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_02: You know what was lovely recently.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_02: There were a couple of the councillors from South Ribble Borough Council who came on to some uh meetings and training that I've been doing.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, their reason for attending was because they wanted to learn more and to be able to use the language appropriately and to be confident, yeah, in challenging other people and their perceptions and when they get it wrong.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_03: And I went, Oh wow, isn't that wonderful?
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's and it's only when we did the sort of round robbing of why are you here and what have you got out of the meeting that I heard this.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_02: I thought this is just brilliant, yeah.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: Because there are some people that still use that phrase child prostitute, and that went out a long, long time ago.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_02: Children do not consent to their own exploitation.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but consent.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, absolutely no, those two two words together.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_02: But there are some attitudes that do need challenging.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: So to hear from the counsellors that they were here because they wanted to learn and to be confident and to challenge others, I thought, wow, that's brilliant.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's fantastic, yeah.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, then those people have conversations with other people, and you get that ripple effect, don't you?
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and some of that I might never see, yeah.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_02: But when people tell me, you go, Wow, yeah, yeah.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: And then last week there was a woman who's a school governor and she kind of sat in on a young lad being excluded recently.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_02: She said, and it was awful.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: She said he's kicking off at school and he's really badly behaved.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_02: So but I actually paused and went, Why?
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, what's the trick?
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_02: His mother had recently died.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_02: Oh gosh.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: He's got a stepmum that's desperately trying to fill her shoes.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: He's cross, he's a young man.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_02: Of course he is, doesn't want her, doesn't want the involvement.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_02: There's all sorts going on this lad's life.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody'd look beyond the obvious the fact that he was just kicking off, being naughty, but why?
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the why.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, so I thought that was that was a lovely story because she was sharing parents that actually questioned and challenged why and what are we doing about it and what's going on in that child's life, which is exactly contextual safeguarding.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_02: What else is happening?
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_02: What who else needs to be yeah, contextual safeguarding?
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_02: Dr.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_02: Colleen Furman about 10 years ago, do you want to go across the bridge?
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, look at these, aren't these lovely little egg things from our Easter weekend?
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, is that what it is?
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, so children could design their own little Easter eggs and then they put them all on the bamboo.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, excuse me.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sweet.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: It is really lovely, it's kind of very community focused.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, there is a lot of things here.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: Here we go, Japanese garden.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: When did we start young to go?
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_02: Here we are.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's lovely.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there used to be a big crocodile made out of lilies that was in the middle.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I remember my grandma saying to me, if you're naughty, he'll come alive.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: What?
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_02: So and then blessing with fellow part of the years, but it was fabulous.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_02: Lily crocodile, about six foot long, it was about there, and it was just a fab.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_02: You see, I have these crocodile traumatic memories, me, I have scary memories.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: I shouldn't be laughing, but it sounds so cute because it's pond, it's beautiful.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, come.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's nice to see the um just the reflections in the water, isn't it?
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: We're so lucky to have landed a sunny day for this.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, true.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_02: Even in horrible weather, it's lovely, yeah.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_02: I mean there's little stepping stands there you can manoeuvre, or we can go over the bridge through here, the troll bridge as it's known, because it's supposedly trolls.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but hey.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, does this bring back a lot of childhood?
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, it's lovely.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and then growing up too, do you know, like coming here as a mature person and all that.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_02: I did the breast cancer 5k here.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, several of them, so you know which roots are good and which roots are the shortest bits, you know.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_02: You discover that, don't you really?
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's nice.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: I just love that there's such a strong connection for you in this space, yeah.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: And you must walk along and just smile to yourself sometimes with different memories from different decades.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, definitely.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's so nice.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it is lovely.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_02: Look at this.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, do you want another shot?
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: You're doing well getting all sorts of proposed.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_02: We should get um commission from Preston City Council because you're promoting this their party, and this is only half of it, you know.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because there's another half over there, yeah.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, it's fine, it's awesome.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: So if um someone had concerns about a young person, right, what would you advise them?
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: How would you advise them to handle it?
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um if there is a concern, it's highly likely to be an offence, a criminal offence.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_02: So you either have the option of reporting to a social worker or the police.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um if you're not sure, you can do a whole range of things to check it out.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: So you could ring Bernardo's, NSPCC.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_02: NSPCC have a helpline for young people, but they also have a helpline for professionals, parents, carers.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's okay.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_02: So you can ring up and go, hey, I don't know about this, blah blah blah blah blah.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_02: The most important bit is sometimes the timeliness of something because sometimes people walk away and go, Oh, it's probably nothing.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_02: But do we know that?
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_02: Should we report that?
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_02: Victoria Columbier, when she died, yeah, um, 20 odd years ago and more now.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the week of her death, the social worker visited the house and saw this beautiful bedroom with a pink canopy on it, and she never saw the child, she never actually spoke to that child yet.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_02: And when it was discovered that she had been tortured and physically abused and maimed in lots of ways, she had a long, slow, painful death.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_02: When Lord Laming's report took place, they found there were 23 different occurrences of missed shared information.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my goodness from health, doctors, school, the church.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_02: Lots of people contact had a little bit of information, a little bit of the jigsaw.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_02: If they shared, her life would have been saved, it would have been very different.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_02: So in his report, and I always build it into one of my training so anybody listening will know what's coming.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_02: His report said, Never do nothing.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think that's so important.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: Never do nothing.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_02: Never do nothing.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_02: So you might not have the full picture, you might not have the East Enders episode of life.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_02: Doesn't matter.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: The fact is you go, mm, that's not okay.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, what do I need to do with that?
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_02: You need to share that information.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, never do nothing.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's better to be wrong, isn't it?
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_02: Than yeah, because that message out to young people, because sometimes people say that to me, what if I got it wrong, Karen?
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: What if I've overreacted?
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_02: So what?
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I say things exactly, yeah.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, but you've done it for the right reasons.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you've done it because of safeguarding, and that message to that young person is you matter.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, I respect you, you are of value, and you matter.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, all right, we might have overreacted.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, what does that say?
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_02: It says safeguarding Trumps.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely, yes, I love that, yeah, yeah, and it's essential, isn't it?
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think we we worry far too much about what will people think, and I'll be a troublemaker, and then they'll come after me.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_02: No, you need to do the right thing.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you could be a lifesaver, you could be that significant person that makes such a difference.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_02: You're enjoying this hill, it's great, isn't it?
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_02: Trying to throw the questions at you right now.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_02: That's great, it's great, but it's a great hill.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_02: Imagine running around here two laps, it's great, it really gets your drilling noise.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it's just so beautiful.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um I just I'm just so in awe of your ability to share difficult information in such a factual way without traumatizing your emotions.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well dramatizing, okay.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think because there's always a bit of a with these things the sensationalism, the clickbait, yeah, and all of that, which I think diminishes the value of what needs to be done.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's really great that you're kind of it's okay, Carol.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, deliberately.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well not deliberate, but your way is very factual, very no nonsense.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: And straight to a quick because actually it's such an important topic.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: We can't wishy-washy it away.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you do a disservice to people.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: If we do that, there's a research that Bernardo's did a couple of years ago about the acronyms saying that if we are in a public meeting or a multi-agency safeguarding meeting or whatever, that you use the words properly.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_02: So you don't use CSE and CCE and all that.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_02: You say clearly child sexual exploitation, child criminal exploitation because that's what's happening.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_02: Because otherwise we minimise yeah we also people don't always understand the acronyms do they so that we you you miss the understanding and the comprehension but you can dehumanise we can minimise we can trivialise it.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought absolutely so for me saying it like it is is really important.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes people say things like well you know you might be traumatising people.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_02: Well I used to worry about that at the beginning when I don't anymore yeah because lavender was a trauma trigger for one woman because her father used to sexually abuse her.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_02: She would try to escape by going into her mum's bed and her mother's pillow had the lavender on it to help her mum sleep.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_02: Dad used to put the pillow over this girl's head to shut her up whilst he raped her.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_02: So her trigger was lavender.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_02: For somebody else the guy I know who is was 12 he said I was taken home by the priest on a Sunday morning after I'd done after I'd done Vespers he said and the priest raped me and I was 12 years old so his trigger was the number 12.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah so if I constantly think oh I can't say this what what am I doing?
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_02: Just let me pause for a minute.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah we passed it no we haven't this is Winkley Square which is also a beautiful beautiful place.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_02: It is it looks very um movie-esque doesn't it yeah yeah and again at night the light up the path and it's very yeah it's just beautiful this goes right back to 18 whatever's they were trying to replicate London because London very trendy in the Victorian towns I mean little squares of of grass.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_02: I was getting London yeah yeah and what would happen is these posh houses would have a little section that was their garden.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_02: So these were actually broken up into lots of different sections and people had their own garden as life went on they made it a public park and arena but you'll see along the park the little uh plaques they tell you the famous people that have lived in these different houses yeah see I know also me Karen I think this needs to be your Saturday morning job just doing free walks around Preston and then just a few on the left is Edith Rigby's house but unfortunately it's a bit of a mess because they're trying desperately they've got friends friends of Edith Rigby now to try to get this taken on by the Preston City Council to get it you know as a museum to get it as a meeting place.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_02: So they're working really hard to get Edith Rigby's house recognised and workby Edith sorry is one of our Preston suffragettes which is really interesting to uh learn about but yeah there you go amazing I love that yeah I'll I'm gonna get you a sandwich board I'd be happy with that do you know I do this when I go out with my family go mum mum please be quiet no you need to know these things I think history is quite I don't know important it is and it surrounds you a bit you know it does and to know we're walking the footsteps of suffragettes and definitely and also the history of your family yeah it's lovely and then we're back to the big car park yeah and we've missed it section out but you know what we've done a nice flavour of river grass park hills lovely and yes sunshine and gradients yeah we definitely gradients for the gradients yeah yeah we saw Mr.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: Robin which is always nice he's he turns to come and say hi in quite a few of the walks actually yeah that's always quite life affirming so if there was one thing you could share with people as we wrap up yeah what would that be oh I don't want to frown at you I think not to be frightened of safeguarding yeah sometimes people don't know what that word means what that term means even young people think it's somebody standing there in armour guarding a gate you know bless you what does safeguarding mean it should be a dynamic living thing not just a policy redone and put on a shelf it should be a living dynamic thing where people can talk to somebody people can ask for help and we respond effectively and at the bottom line it's all about keeping people safe and not to be scared of safeguarding and what does that mean where you live in your community in your organisation you know do you understand it what's your role we all have a little part to play in the contribution of the wider society is my thought.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah fabulous thank you you're very welcome thank you I just need a while to get going don't I yeah I've got going and flowing we've just about five ten minutes perfect so if anyone wants to get involved in no whispers how do they do that?
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_02: We have a website that's got our email address on it you can obviously contact me through that directly we do look for volunteers at different okay different levels and degrees really so some people want to be a non-executive director and be involved in our meetings and planning the things some people just want to come and be part of our days you know we have events and days where we campaign we distribute resources yeah um we do all sorts Royal Lang show yeah suicide awareness day mental health days all sorts of things like that uh friends of no whisper so there's always things to be done yeah um and people sometimes go yeah let me be part of this project or let me just come and help on a day yeah whatever and are you national or are you based in the north?
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_02: Okay based in Leyland near Preston okay we do work nationally okay so I've got a conference coming up in London in June okay I'm going to present at which is great some other things that we do online and national yeah if I get asked and other colleagues get asked to deliver training we will look at is it feasible and is it worthwhile doing and usually usually it is yeah you know but yeah fabulous well thanks Karen thanks for your time thanks for the talk it's been amazing um I need to go and pay for my car and so do I think that's going to do it here actually thank you for joining me on today's walk through Avenham Park with the incredible Karen Lipsey.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_00: Karen thank you so much for your generosity your honesty and for sharing both your story and the essential work you do through No Whispers CIC.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_00: Your clarity and compassion reminds us that safeguarding is not just a policy it's action it's awareness and it's care as we reflect on today's conversation I invite you to ask yourself what safeguarding means to you in your home in your workplace and in your community have there been moments where something has felt off and did you act what might it mean for you to widen your radar as Karen says if this episode resonated with you please do leave a review it helps others discover the important conversations share it with someone who might need to hear it and come and join the conversation on TikTok, LinkedIn YouTube, Substack, Blue Sky or just search for Zircania the podcast.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time keep walking keep talking and remember never do nothing, but we're not