Latest / The FEEL Podcast: Women’s Empowerment, Emotional Wellness and Self-Leadership with Melissa Crook / Grief, Boundaries, and Grace: Marie Alessi on Navigating Sudden Loss and Finding Emotional Resilience

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Grief, Boundaries, and Grace: Marie Alessi on Navigating Sudden Loss and Finding Emotional Resilience · The FEEL Podcast: Women’s Empowerment, Emotional Wellness and Self-Leadership with Melissa Crook

0:00
Such a perfect image. When you think of that and an
0:04
airplane just plummeting through the sky, losing, losing oxygen
0:09
very rapidly. In any situation where you can
0:12
lose oxygen rapidly, you know you've got time to save
0:17
yourself. So.
0:19
If you look after yourself first, then you can do so much
0:23
more for your children. Looking after them first is very
0:26
short sighted. Very short sighted when you've
0:28
got that image. So I learned that and I'm glad I
0:32
did because I did the whole oxygen mask on my kids first for
0:37
a long time before I realized it's not only that they need me
0:42
around. But who do your children look up
0:45
to to learn their behaviors? So by me taking them first and
0:51
making them my entire priority and always putting myself last,
0:55
that's what they learn and that's what they then do in
0:58
their relationships. And that's what then turns into
1:01
unhealthy relationships. And that's what we don't want
1:03
for our kids. So there's always that long term
1:06
image that I want to share with people because everything else
1:09
is this too short sighted. It doesn't make healthy children
1:12
or healthy relationships in the long run.
1:14
Hello and welcome to the Field podcast.
1:17
Today I'm here with a new friend.
1:20
I'm your host, Melissa Crook, and as you all have heard me
1:23
talk about before, got a wonderful partnership with
1:26
Podmatch and they bring me some really remarkable guests and
1:30
women in today's. Another one of those cases, I've
1:33
got Maria Leslie here with me today.
1:35
She's joining me from down under.
1:37
So it's kind of, but we had to really work out the timing of
1:41
this because it's 3:30 in the afternoon on a, you know,
1:46
Wednesday here for me. It's Thursday morning already
1:49
for her. Oh.
1:52
My gosh. So.
1:52
So it was just like, Oh yeah, the world is a big place.
1:55
So interesting. Well, she's got a treasure trove
1:59
of information today around a topic that is so important for
2:03
us to have resources and language for and an invitation
2:09
into conversation and curiosity about.
2:12
And you're going to know what I mean as we get into this.
2:14
Before we dive into that, Marie describes herself as loyal,
2:20
reliable, and genuine. Maria Leslie, welcome to the
2:24
Field podcast. Thanks so much for having me,
2:27
Melissa, How are you this afternoon?
2:30
I know, I know. I'm good, I'm good.
2:32
I'm having water, not coffee, but yeah, I'm good.
2:35
I've had. No free tea.
2:37
OK, OK, I I'm having a great day.
2:41
I've had some wonderful conversations.
2:43
So it's fun for me to get to wrap up the day with you before
2:47
I head into my evening and you go into the rest of your day.
2:51
But I see, you know, when you and I met the first time a month
2:56
or two ago and lost track of time, we talked about grief in a
3:01
way that I've never heard anyone talk about it before.
3:04
And I think what you have to offer is so important for our
3:09
listeners to hear about and know about.
3:11
So I want to give a little pretense to that because grief
3:15
is a tricky subject for people. But I want to invite our
3:18
listeners to really sit down and get curious because I think
3:21
you're going to find what we're sharing today and through
3:25
Marie's story and what she's learned and how she goes about
3:29
showing up and serving in the world as a really, really
3:32
supportive and helpful resource in this topic.
3:35
That can be a real tricky one for most people.
3:39
The way we approach it doesn't always have the healthiest of
3:45
in, you know, resources around it.
3:48
And it's one of those topics that we talk about whisper
3:51
sometimes still or we put a timeline on and unrealistic
3:55
expectations. And so you're going to have so
3:58
much to say about that. But to start off, I want to, I
4:01
want to hear your journey, your story around prioritizing
4:05
self-care in your life and what that's looked like for you as
4:10
you travel through your life. Yeah, I, I don't know how much
4:15
you want to hear about the story, getting into it
4:18
beforehand, why this is so important or not.
4:20
But for me, self-care has really become, it's like the the mask
4:26
on the airplane, you know, whether it was say, you have to,
4:29
you have to look after yourself 1st.
4:31
And this is something that a lot of people don't even know about
4:34
me, but I actually used to work as a flight attendant.
4:37
And when we did that training, it always puzzled me.
4:41
I'm like, like, well, and especially once I became a mom,
4:45
I wasn't flying anymore then, but when I became a mother,
4:47
like, how can you not put the oxygen mask on your kids first?
4:51
And I, I got it, You know, if you, if you are plummeting on
4:57
the plane and losing consciousness, then you're not
5:00
going to be able to put it on yourself anymore.
5:02
But if you look after yourself first, then you can save your
5:05
kids. So it's either three people or,
5:09
you know, 2 in that case. And like not including me,
5:13
what's that going to do to my children?
5:15
And it is such a perfect image when you think of that and an
5:20
airplane just plummeting through the sky, losing, losing oxygen
5:25
very rapidly. In any situation where you can
5:28
use oxygen rapidly, you know you've got the time to save
5:33
yourself. So.
5:35
If you look after yourself first, then you can do so much
5:39
more for your children. Looking after them first is very
5:42
short sighted. Very short sighted when you've
5:44
got that image. So I learned that and I'm glad I
5:48
did because I did the whole oxygen mask on my kids first for
5:53
a long time before I realized it's not only that they need me
5:58
around. But who do your children look up
6:01
to to learn their behavior? Yes.
6:04
Yeah. So by me taking them first and
6:07
making them my entire priority and always putting myself last,
6:11
that's what they learn and that's what they then do in
6:14
their relationships. And that's what then turns into
6:17
unhealthy relationships. And that's what we don't want
6:19
for our kids. So there's always that long term
6:22
image that I want to share with people because everything else
6:25
is is too short sighted. It doesn't make healthy children
6:28
or healthy relationships in the long run.
6:31
Yeah. So talk to me then about what?
6:35
Because you've had you've had this story of grief comes by you
6:40
having grief in your life and having to navigate it.
6:44
And grief is tricky because it it goes with after loving
6:49
greatly and then having losses that lead to the grieving
6:55
greatly. So talk to me about how you
6:59
learned to take care of yourself and and feel free to share any
7:03
of the parts of the story you feel comfortable to because your
7:07
story really informs how and why you show up The do being a
7:12
resource in this narrative today.
7:15
Yeah, so I had multiple encounters with grief, and two
7:21
of them I'm going to pick out because they were the two most
7:24
significant ones in my life. One was when I was only 20 and I
7:28
lost my dad to cancer, and that happened quite rapidly.
7:33
So we went through a cancer journey.
7:36
He miraculously survived. None of the doctors understood
7:40
how, but he did. He had an entire year with us.
7:45
And then the cancer came back and took him within a month.
7:47
So when he came back, it came back very aggressively.
7:51
And I went through my 20th birthday and literally a few
7:56
days later, my dad passed away. And it, it pulled the rug
7:59
underneath my feet. I had no idea how to handle
8:03
grief back then. I had no resources.
8:06
I wasn't taught how to handle grief.
8:08
What we learned about grief is that you go to the funeral, you
8:11
were black. And then you say, my
8:12
condolences. That's a package.
8:14
You know, that's how you deal with grief.
8:16
And that to me is such a learned phrase that actually leaves the
8:21
person on the receiving end, which was me at the end of the
8:24
condolences line with my siblings, with my mom.
8:27
And when you hear the sentence hundreds of times, literally
8:31
people lining up hundreds of them, and to say that same
8:34
sentence you over and over again, it leaves you feeling so
8:38
empty. That line, my condolences,
8:42
completely loses its meaning, its intention.
8:45
And I'm saying that because most people when they say my
8:50
condolences, they either do it because it's a learned phrase,
8:53
that's what you say when somebody's grieving, or they do
8:56
it with really full hearted intention.
8:59
Yet on the other end, hearing it hundreds of times, it does lose
9:03
its meaning. It does lose its intention to
9:08
feel that empathy of that person or sometimes sympathy, which
9:12
doesn't help at all. So that was my first experience
9:16
through grief. I was reeling for a Goodyear,
9:20
not knowing who to turn to, what to do with that.
9:23
And about a year after I started with therapy and worked through
9:27
a whole lot of stuff that this grief journey has brought up for
9:30
me. So a little side nodding may or
9:32
may not get to it later, but I just want to say when you're
9:35
grieving, it literally brings up everything that is unsolved or
9:40
unhealed from your childhood. Just, you know, just as an FYI,
9:46
weren't are there to be healed. That's just fact.
9:49
Let's just put it out there. I often put the comparison
9:53
between emotional and physical healing in because we treated
9:56
complete polar opposite. You know, if somebody's wounded
10:00
in a physical way, we rush to their health.
10:03
We we clean their wounds, we dress them, we try to heal them
10:06
as quickly as possible and with grief or emotional wounds, but
10:11
let's stick with grief here because it's a really intense 1
10:14
based on that really has to hurt.
10:16
You know, you have to go through it.
10:18
It is really important that you deal with it.
10:20
It's like there is that it has to hurt and it's normal.
10:23
And if you don't feel it and you're not doing it right,
10:26
nobody would say that with a physical wound, but with an
10:29
emotional wound, we do it. And if we don't do it, then
10:32
we're not going to heal it. I don't agree with that.
10:35
So that brings me to my second really intense encounter with
10:41
grief, which was when my husband passed very suddenly, no pre
10:46
warning from a brain aneurysm. So he went on a business trip to
10:50
Perth, which is a few hours flight across the country from
10:54
where we live, and he just collapsed in the shower and
10:58
died. There was no pre warning.
11:00
He was healthy as a fiddle. You know, he was a surfer.
11:04
He was really fit. He was 45 for the prime of his
11:06
life. And all of a sudden that
11:08
happened and the boys were only 10 and 8.
11:10
So we have two sons, you know, they're 17 and 15.
11:14
And that's what happened. It really again, like it was
11:19
another pull the rug underneath my feet moment.
11:21
You know, I did not see that coming.
11:24
There wasn't even a lead up to it like we had with my dad.
11:27
It was complete left field and luckily very bizarre word to use
11:36
in that situation, but I'm going to use it anyway.
11:38
Luckily I had learned a whole lot of tools and shifted my
11:44
mindset to something so different to where I was when I
11:49
lost my dad. So that was 25 years later in my
11:53
case, you know, when when I lost Rob and there was a very, very
11:59
different moment of dealing with that.
12:02
I'm gonna wrap this up here because I can not imagine you've
12:04
got 100 questions here around that topic.
12:06
But what I want to say is three years prior to Rob's passing, we
12:12
had a what if conversation. Rob was on his way home from
12:16
work and he called me and he said, babe, I'm going to be two
12:20
hours late. There was an accident on
12:21
Heathcote Road. And for those not knowing what
12:23
it is, it's a one way through the entire National Park Rd.
12:27
where there's no way out of this.
12:29
Oh wow, that road is blocked. It's at least a 2 hour detour.
12:33
So you have to drive all the way around and find your way through
12:36
peak hour traffic to, you know, stop and go.
12:39
And I remember thinking in hindsight, not not in that
12:44
moment, because when you're in that situation, a 2 hour detour
12:47
is a huge inconvenience for families with young children
12:50
waiting for the dad come home for dinner, say goodnight to the
12:53
kids, etcetera. It feels like a huge
12:55
inconvenience. But for one person, for one
12:58
young dad, it meant that he never made it home to his
13:01
family. It was a front on collision with
13:04
a truck and a young dad died on the scene and his daughter was
13:09
only 16 months old. So when we found out, Rob and I
13:13
sat on our bed that night and we were crying.
13:17
It was really, really hit home for us because our children were
13:20
so little. So it really touches you
13:23
differently. But that caused us to have a
13:27
what if conversation. What would you do if you
13:30
received that phone call? Or what would I do if I received
13:33
that phone call, which I did three years later?
13:36
Nobody sees that coming. Everybody always thinks it's not
13:40
going to be me. But in that what if
13:44
conversation, the outcome was if something was going to happen, I
13:47
would want you to create the happiest life possible for you
13:50
and the boys. And we said that to each other.
13:53
And that became my North Star in my darkest hour.
13:58
That's exactly what I followed. I didn't know how to get there.
14:02
I had no idea, but I knew that's where I would.
14:05
That's where I was heading. Yeah, yeah.
14:08
You never know the power of those conversations.
14:12
And you and I, when we were visiting, had this conversation
14:15
where my husband and I had had a similar type of conversation
14:19
and, and what that means. And, and just knowing what those
14:24
expectations are, what those hopes are and, and verbalizing
14:28
it because you can assume it, but you know, but having and
14:31
verbalized and said to each other really makes it come home
14:35
for you. I think when you find yourself
14:37
in that situation, you've been through grief, you learned about
14:42
what it meant and he said something so important.
14:45
And I think it's really important for us to come back to
14:48
this. And I think this can be really
14:50
where healthy boundaries come in and paying attention to that
14:54
emotional, mental, physical health impact, which you've
14:57
already talked about in that allowing people to process it in
15:02
the way that feels authentic to them.
15:04
We have all these rules around what we think grief should look
15:09
like, and it is different for every single person.
15:14
And you know, and so it's just because someone's not processing
15:19
it the way you would, you think you would, or you have if you've
15:23
been in that case, doesn't mean they're doing it wrong.
15:27
Yes, we have. I think it's important to point
15:29
out that it's important not to stuff emotions.
15:31
It's important to process things and allow ourselves to feel all
15:35
those things are important. It's also important not to force
15:39
yourself or ask someone else to force themselves to to process
15:45
in a way that doesn't feel authentic to them.
15:48
And so for you, having that North Star, as devastating as
15:53
that phone call was, it also like, I'm not going to sit here
15:58
for the rest of my life and be sad all the time.
16:02
Of course I'm going to miss him. Of course this is a terrible
16:07
tragedy for our children and me. And also so talk, tell me about
16:11
yeah, because I think and setting healthy boundaries
16:15
around situations where people as well, meaning as they may be,
16:22
are clearly having a problem with how they are either
16:27
processing yourself or seeing you processing it.
16:30
There are a lot of opinions, let's put it that way.
16:33
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So how do you protect yourself
16:37
and your kids from that? It was something that I had to
16:42
learn quite quickly because I remember when we saw the day I
16:50
found out, I had to, of course, share the news with the boys
16:55
first. That was my, you know, it was
16:57
really important for me that they would hear it first and
16:59
that we don't start talking about my husband's passing,
17:03
their dad's passing and them being completely oblivious to
17:07
it. I knew I had to share the news
17:08
with them first. And that was by far the most
17:13
confronting thing I ever had to do in my entire life.
17:16
It was really the hardest part for me to share these news with
17:19
them and to watch them fall apart over it and hold space for
17:24
them in that and, and be sitting there crying with them, you
17:27
know, because for me, the information was very fresh.
17:31
I literally we had 7 seconds to prepare for these news when I
17:37
came downstairs because there are 7 steps from my bedroom to
17:42
the living room where they were sitting.
17:44
And that's as much time as I had to prepare for this message.
17:47
But there is no sugar coating. A message like your dad just
17:51
died. You just need to say it's
17:53
straight out. There's no no sugar coating.
17:56
There's a whole lot of follow up questions, yes, but the message
18:01
itself, there is no way around it.
18:04
You know, it's, it is what it is you need to say straight out.
18:08
And then when we had our moment, I knew I wanted to drive to
18:13
Rob's mom and dad and tell them in person because that is a
18:16
message that I didn't want them to receive over the phone.
18:19
And, and the next day we flew out to Perth, which is across
18:25
the country where Rob passed away to identify his body.
18:29
So we spent about 3 or 4 days in Perth.
18:33
And when we came back, we had so many people just dropping in.
18:38
I just wanted to give you a hug. I just wanted to say I just,
18:41
just, just, just just. And it was overwhelmingly
18:46
suffocating. The first couple of people, you
18:50
don't feel it as much, you think.
18:52
And again, coming back to intention, the attention is
18:55
absolutely pure and beautiful. But on the receiving end, it
19:00
felt very overwhelming having to tell this story over and over
19:05
again. Something that is so fresh.
19:07
Because I sat there and I remember after the 4th, 5th time
19:11
I told what happened and how we found out and what we did and it
19:16
started to feel so mundane. And I called myself thinking, I
19:22
don't want to feel like that. I don't want to be telling Rob's
19:25
story and feel like it's mundane already.
19:28
And not four or five days after he passed away.
19:31
And I had to put very clear downwards in place for people to
19:35
please not just drop in unannounced.
19:39
And I very often those early days used to Facebook as a mean
19:46
to convey that message because that to me was the easiest part
19:52
to reach as many people as possible and not make it too
19:56
personal about one or two people.
19:58
I learned that it's a very general message to please do not
20:02
drop in unannounced. You know, please send us a text
20:06
message upfront. If we're not responding, there's
20:09
a reason why. You know, if my phone is off,
20:12
there's a reason why at least us.
20:14
You know, if my phone's off, it doesn't mean come in and check
20:17
on me anyway. It means I need space.
20:19
And we needed a lot of space. To be able to sit with that and
20:24
process what just happened is something so extraordinary big.
20:30
It needs time to process that information.
20:33
It really is such a you, you go through this surreal couple of
20:38
days, weeks or even months maybe where it feels so surreal.
20:43
Your brain is still trying to catch up with reality and having
20:47
people come in and ask you questions and hope you like it
20:51
is really uncomfortable and excruciating at times.
20:54
So I really needed to put a stop to that because yeah, we we
20:59
literally went into a cocaine for a while where I just sat
21:03
with my kids and try my best to keep them safe.
21:07
And yeah, yeah, well. And that's, you know, because
21:12
you're, you're getting the double edged side here.
21:14
You're not only processing your own grief, you're going to guide
21:18
these little kids through their grief.
21:20
And this is a big emotion that at their age, they need a lot of
21:25
guidance and help on because they haven't seen anything like
21:28
this before. And most of the time, a lot of
21:31
kids, sometimes you lose grandparents at that age, but a
21:35
lot of times this isn't a, this is the biggest emotion by far
21:39
that they have confronted. And there's really no, you know,
21:43
script on how to walk an 8 and 10 year old through this kind of
21:48
a loss. So being mindful of that as well
21:52
and protecting, you know, this really goes nicely into
21:54
protecting not only your emotional, mental, physical
21:58
health because they all play off of each other, but also theirs.
22:02
And so being really mindful of that and being like, listen, I
22:08
know the intentions are good and also I need you to respect this
22:13
time and talk to me. Is there something that you've
22:16
learned about those kinds of boundaries then that have
22:20
carried forward and how you communicate boundaries today?
22:27
I definitely communicate them in a healthier way, way healthier
22:31
way in a very gentle sort of I, I communicate them from my heart
22:37
and that's where I stay when I communicate my boundaries
22:39
because that's where I need them.
22:41
You know, when I'm, when I'm in my heart and I feel like
22:44
somebody's invading my space, I, I have to admit, it's not always
22:50
easy to say it out loud or say it upfront.
22:53
I sometimes retreat for a little while because this is where I
22:57
feel safe. This is where I need to sit with
23:00
that, what's happening, what's going on with my emotions, And
23:04
then I am able to come out and say, look, I just need this
23:09
space, You know, I don't have enough space for everyone in
23:13
here. And I need to be in that space
23:16
on my own or with my inner circle.
23:18
I don't always say I need to be on my own so that people think
23:22
it's not about them. That's a big thing.
23:24
We are so trained to, you know, this is not polite if you say
23:32
that. And this could be seen as rude
23:34
if you exclude people. And so you make it about, I
23:37
don't want to see anyone. No, I'm, I'm quite happy to say
23:41
these days I really just need to stay with my inner circle right
23:44
now. That to me is the most gentle
23:46
and most truthful way to say there is no more space for
23:49
anybody else right now. I need you to respect my
23:53
boundary. And if I don't pick up my phone
23:56
again, there is a reason, reason we live in a time and age where
24:00
we think that when we text someone, they have to reply
24:03
immediately. But it says red on there.
24:06
They've seen my message why they're not responding.
24:08
Well, you know, I often say that to my boys as well because
24:12
they're, they grew up in that time and age where everybody
24:15
responds immediately. And I give you that as a as an
24:20
image, you will get that straight away.
24:21
Like, part of my job these days is I do host celebrations of
24:26
life for people. And often when I'm at a
24:29
function, I use my laptop to play a tribute video to play
24:33
music that the family chooses. And it is not very helpful when
24:38
the screen is on the big screen and there's 100 people in the
24:41
room and there's like, mom, mom, mom.
24:44
That's a message. Like I need to learn how to how
24:47
to switch up. It hasn't happened yet.
24:49
It hasn't happened. The thing while I'm saying that
24:52
is because it would have happened last Saturday if my
24:56
laptop had connected, but there was some sound issues.
24:59
So they gave me a laptop from the hotel where we ran the
25:01
function. And when I switched my phone
25:04
back off, there was this Mom, mom, this.
25:07
And I'm like, Oh my God, I am so glad my laptop didn't work.
25:11
That would have been shown to hundreds of people, you know?
25:13
And I'm like, Oh my God. So I mean, those are the sort of
25:18
Lucas out of my life. You know, where it sounds quite
25:20
funny talking about it now, but not for the family when they're
25:25
grieving and they want to have their loved ones on it.
25:28
And then, you know, those messages keep popping up.
25:31
And yes, I'm also human. I'm not just a celebrant.
25:34
I'm human. And in the very first instant,
25:37
I'm a mom. But boundaries and that is
25:41
something when when we think about where we live these days,
25:45
as in the that day and age where everybody needs to respond like
25:49
that. Like no, if I don't respond,
25:52
there is a reason for that. I either need space or I'm in a
25:55
session or I'm holding a service.
25:57
There is a reason why I'm switch and I'll switch my phone off.
26:00
It still comes through the computer, funny enough, but that
26:04
technical stuff, I need to sort outside mode, but my phone is
26:08
switched off, you know, like when I'm in an interview, when I
26:12
talk to people, when I hold the session, I don't just go on
26:15
airplane mode. I just switch it off just in
26:17
case, you know. And I think that's a really
26:20
healthy boundary. No matter where you're at in
26:23
your life, you don't have to have live through grief to set
26:26
those boundaries. They're quite healthy anyway,
26:29
you know, So yeah. Yeah.
26:32
I think, yeah, it's that this idea, this instantaneous
26:35
response and it, it's so much pressure.
26:37
And I, you know, it's like, you know, I've had to do that with,
26:41
as a, with emails and things like that.
26:44
I'm like, you know what? This is going to be the day I
26:46
answer all of those and, and it'll be fine.
26:50
And I'm not going to, I'm not going to get you.
26:51
I'm going to take that pressure off of myself to and if they
26:56
have a problem or have a question or be like this is my
26:59
designated day to that or I was busy recording all day.
27:03
And when I record, I don't respond to those other things or
27:07
or my kids, you know, my kids are, you know, call my kids are
27:10
grown, but they call and they're like, you didn't you didn't if
27:14
respond, I'm like, well, I was doing this and they know like,
27:17
you know, she must be recording. She must be in a meeting.
27:21
You know, they understand that now.
27:22
But yeah, taking that pressure off of ourselves and, and, and
27:26
giving yourself time to breathe and and so that you can respond
27:29
the way you want to respond and not irritated and like you're
27:33
trying to accommodate and abandoned yourself in the
27:36
process. I think that's such an
27:38
important. Thing to be removed and all of
27:40
that, yeah. And because this impacts our
27:43
mental, emotional, physical health, if we're constantly
27:46
shape shifting all the time to try to accommodate everybody
27:49
else's expectations or wants from us, then it gets unsettling
27:55
for us. We feel it in our bodies.
27:57
It impacts how we interact with people.
28:00
I mean, there's it's all connected in that way.
28:03
So yeah. Yeah.
28:04
So having that that way. And this really leads nicely
28:08
into, you know, showing up for yourself unapologetically as
28:12
well as others. You do that like you have come
28:17
to be not only a resource for yourself, but a resource to
28:22
others. And you do it in a way that's
28:26
like, I've got a different way of thinking about this.
28:30
And I invite you to be curious, but I'm not going to apologize
28:33
for the way because I got here myself.
28:35
I've done the the work. I've been down the road.
28:39
And so talk to me about that realization that you could take
28:44
what you've learned from these very difficult experiences and
28:48
not only do it in a way that was honoring and healthy to you and
28:52
your kids, but also be a resource to other people as they
28:56
they process and walk through their grief.
28:59
Yeah, I think it all started in in a therapy session.
29:04
Actually, after Rob passed away, I sought the help of a positive
29:10
psychologist and she really helped me process my emotion, my
29:16
thought patterns, my what am I going to do with that?
29:20
Where am I going to take the kids?
29:21
You know, there there was this whole idea as in where am I
29:24
going to take the kids? That was like on an emotional
29:26
journey, but there was also a physical journey that happened
29:28
thereafter. But there was this pivotal
29:33
moment and it was one question where I came to her in a session
29:37
and I talked to her about this, the expectations of society, you
29:42
know, how heavy that weighed on me giving it my all, my all and
29:51
everything to to live that promise to create the happiest
29:55
life possible for the boys and myself.
29:57
And in the early stages, I was, I was really reeling with that
30:01
thought of how on earth am I going to do that?
30:04
You know, and then you're trying to do something happy and then
30:10
society meets you with isn't she grieving?
30:15
What, what is she doing? Why why is she smiling?
30:17
You know that that that is not normal.
30:19
Like I would walk down the street to the shops.
30:22
And I really made an effort to not avoid the shops from the
30:26
very early days because I thought I'm not going to leave
30:28
it. The harder it gets.
30:30
That was my sure. Like I'm going to just have to
30:33
keep going to the shops because we need to eat.
30:35
And I don't want to send someone to do that because I want to
30:38
choose what we eat. I don't want to avoid, you know,
30:43
the, the community because we live in a very small community.
30:46
So within a day or two, everyone who knew, sure.
30:49
And I also used Facebook again to make that announcement when
30:55
Rob passed away, because that was my only way where I could do
30:59
one message and everybody knew. I thought having to tell that
31:02
story over and over, having to make hundreds of phone calls, I
31:06
didn't have the strength to do that.
31:08
So my best way to announce it was on Facebook.
31:12
And anyway, so you would walk down the street and I would go
31:17
to the shops and I would have a happy day.
31:19
And dear me, I'm smiling. And then you would meet people
31:22
like meet you like that. Like how are you?
31:25
You know their face. You just want to see them and
31:28
you just want to, you just, I don't even know how to say that
31:31
to people. You know, after all these years,
31:33
I'm still like, how do you say that to people?
31:35
Please just not do that to me because you would drag me down
31:38
with your face and, and at the same time also honoring their
31:47
way of grieving that they might still be breathing in a very
31:51
different way or be on a different level in the healing
31:54
journey compared to me. But I didn't have the capacity
31:57
to see that at first. I, I did not have the capacity.
32:02
I was busy enough with our own grief.
32:04
And so coming back to to the moment, to pivotal moment and
32:11
and where I share that with my positive psychologies.
32:15
And I said to her, you know, it weighs really happy on me, this
32:18
expectation of society, how I'm supposed to grieve, how I'm
32:22
supposed to be falling apart and grief will last forever.
32:26
And it leaves this hole in your heart and all that language that
32:28
I don't use at all. And she looked at me and smiled
32:32
and she said, So what does grief mean to you, Marie?
32:38
And I, to my very own biggest surprise, the first word that
32:42
came up was empowerment. And I said to her, I did not see
32:47
that coming. I did not expect that word to
32:50
pop up. That's the first word that
32:52
popped up in my head. And I, I just don't know really
32:55
what to do with that, but it made sense because of the primal
33:01
force that grief brings with it. There is so much power.
33:07
And everyone who has not experienced the primal screaming
33:13
that can come out of something like that, please consider
33:17
yourself very lucky because it is piercing through your heart.
33:23
And I've been there and my kids have been there and it is not
33:27
pretty. And at the same time, there's
33:30
something cathartic, there's something really helpful with
33:34
that screaming it out. And it's just really like that
33:40
me falling apart moment where it went into crime or screaming
33:44
happened in the same week of Rob's funeral, on the day that I
33:49
had to walk my younger son down the aisle to his first Holy
33:53
Communion in the same week we had the funeral for.
33:56
The funeral was on Wednesday, the Holy Communion was on
33:59
Sunday. And that night I collapsed.
34:03
And that collapse got me to go to the positive psychologist.
34:07
The positive psychologist got me to the people of the moment of,
34:10
you know, wow, there's so much power that it really is.
34:15
You can use that primal power to rebuild yourself.
34:19
When you tap into that, it is potent in a really good way.
34:24
And that's when I looked at her and I said I think I need to
34:28
write a book about this. And she said I think you should.
34:32
So I wrote a book about it that ranked in the top 100 bestseller
34:37
list of Amazon Australia, which again blew me away.
34:40
I had not seen any of that coming and out of that I
34:44
realized I had to do something with that.
34:46
I started the movement with the same title of the book, Loving
34:51
Love After Loss. I ran it for about 5 years.
34:54
I've taken about 5000 people on their path to healing with me in
34:59
that movement with healing journeys, programs, retreats,
35:03
regular talks, interviews. I did a TEDx talk on redefining
35:08
our image of the world because I'm so against that label.
35:12
Widow. You see an old person wearing
35:15
black. Yeah.
35:15
Given up on life. That's not me.
35:18
Yeah. And yeah.
35:19
So that that was my journey, or the the first five years of my
35:24
journey were very intensely and very quickly into creating
35:29
something with this. I literally went into creation
35:32
and shared very authentically what my journey was and that
35:38
there is a different perspective.
35:41
And I'm going to wrap this up nicely.
35:43
This is my bowl. I'm going to tie around this
35:45
beautiful package. When Rob and I had the word of
35:49
conversation and we wanted the other person to create the
35:53
happiest life possible to to us, the essence of all of that was
35:59
that love just wants you to be happy.
36:03
That's the bow I'm going to tie around that because that's
36:07
what's become my driver ever since.
36:10
Love just wants you to be happy. That's my life.
36:14
Force. Yeah, well, and I think that
36:16
really answers my next question about how your why and your
36:19
values inform this work you do and how you show up in the
36:23
world. You just said it.
36:25
I mean that mantra that you live by.
36:29
Really, when is there was there a moment that you realize, Yep,
36:35
that's, you know, was at the moment in the office with your
36:37
therapist or at that moment you realize, Yep, that's the mantra,
36:41
That's the theme. That's what we agreed to.
36:44
But that's also what I feel like when you talk because I love how
36:48
you talked about that, that for behind you, because yes, that,
36:53
that deep grip, that that girdle scream that that comes out of
36:58
you that you need to do in those those situations to release it
37:01
from your body. It's actually, you know, when
37:03
we're talking about that mental, emotional, physical health
37:06
connection, it's actually really healthy for you to do that.
37:10
And also realizing there's other power behind that.
37:15
And I can tap into that power. And and so so bringing that all
37:20
to realize, wait a minute. As I go into this season, as I
37:25
honor this way of living. And because it not only is it
37:30
what we agreed upon, it feels authentic to me.
37:33
It feels, you know, it feels like this is the road I'm
37:36
supposed to be on. Was that kind of like yeah this
37:39
is my why and that my values are aligned with this?
37:44
Yeah, I can't remember exactly the moment when this all came
37:51
out in this one. Streamlined Love just wants you
37:54
to be happy. I have a slight feeling that it
37:58
actually came out in the podcast interview one day, but I'm not
38:02
really sure anymore. I know 2 moments that were very
38:06
distinct and that I'll never forget.
38:09
One was when I told the boys about Rob's passing and in that
38:16
moment was when I heard Rob's voice.
38:19
I just want integrate the happiest life possible for you
38:21
and the boys. I heard that sentence you said
38:24
to me in our conversation and I knew that was my direction.
38:29
That was in the moment I shared the news with them.
38:31
And the other rather pivotal moment for me, I had quite a few
38:37
along the way, but there were some really big ones and that
38:40
was a really big one for me. It was only a few weeks after
38:43
Rob passed. I was up in our bedroom and all
38:48
of a sudden I had this. I I now call it a spiritual
38:51
epiphany where I had this realization that Rob and I had
38:57
chosen this on a soul level. We have chosen this as our
39:02
journey and it was like a like a knowing that came over me.
39:10
I can't explain that in any other words.
39:12
It was this complete understanding of we have chosen
39:16
that and it came very subtle at first, but once it came, I
39:21
couldn't ignore it anymore. It became stronger and clearer
39:25
and it turned into this absolute deepest spiritual understanding
39:29
of this was what we had chosen as ours or contract.
39:33
And I'm saying this with a little disclaimer that I
39:37
absolutely understand and that everyone listening to this has
39:41
got their own spiritual understanding and that it might
39:45
not align with yours. But this, this is my spiritual
39:48
understanding. And I know it very much aligns
39:50
with where Rob and I were and how we talk to each other and
39:55
how we understood life. And we talk about spiritual
39:59
stuff. I want to call it.
40:01
How inappropriate. But we talk about sort of stuff
40:04
all the time, you know, and he was coming at it from a rather
40:09
different angle, but we always sort of met in the in the middle
40:13
to discuss how he felt about things, how I felt about things.
40:17
And we were both very curious and very open to each other's
40:21
understanding and thought processes around that.
40:25
And I literally felt in that moment, it was where both of
40:31
ours came together. And it was such a enlightening
40:34
moment for me. And it was, as I said, quite
40:37
subtle at the beginning. Yeah, it took me a whole lot
40:41
longer because it was only a few weeks after he passed.
40:43
But it took me a whole lot longer to feel really, what's
40:50
the word I'm looking for, to feel really confident to share
40:58
that with the outside world, let alone in the podcast.
41:02
Now, I talk about it all the time because it's become
41:04
something so normal for me. But it took some time to get to
41:08
that level, to actually really earn that and, and say that loud
41:12
because, yeah, I also understand that some of Rock's family might
41:16
have a different spiritual understanding to me.
41:19
And that's OK. I'm not trying to force it upon
41:21
anyone, but that's where I stand.
41:23
And I can feel Rock standing with me in that.
41:26
So that feels really good. Yeah.
41:27
I. Love that and really feeds into
41:31
you talked about this earlier, the pressure of the societal
41:33
expectations, but it really gives you that extra support of
41:37
truly living out of your own expectations versus others
41:40
expectations and defining that for yourself.
41:43
And also walking your your kids are in a way that is honoring to
41:51
them because they've got to navigate all of that too.
41:53
But when you feel like you've got that strength behind you, it
41:57
seems like that would help you or embolden you support you.
42:01
Is that was that been the case? Yeah, absolutely.
42:05
Yeah. I think it was also important
42:07
for me and I, it's really interesting because you think
42:10
that your children learn your spiritual beliefs from you, you
42:14
know, because children learn from what you live.
42:17
But what I love about this is that both my boys are quite
42:24
different in their approach. Have they dealt with or deal
42:28
with their dots passing? And it kept changing.
42:32
They were never on the same page ever.
42:35
That's a very, very big trade my boys had from from the very
42:38
beginning. And it was quite challenging at
42:43
times in grief because one wanted to talk about it all the
42:46
time, every every day. The other one didn't want to
42:48
talk about it at all. And then it flipped.
42:50
And I was like, I wish there was just, you know, like, and I had
42:54
to also navigate the I don't want to not talk about him just
42:59
because you don't want to talk about him.
43:01
And vice versa, if I don't feel like talking about it right now,
43:04
I don't want to force it. So I have to talk about that
43:07
every moment of the day. I kept that and I got to the
43:11
point where I said to them, I see and fully appreciate that
43:17
both of you have different ways of wanting to talk about it or
43:20
not. But I will not change my way of
43:23
talking about him. I keep it very natural.
43:26
I will talk about him when it feels right to me.
43:28
And I'm also not going to force it if it does align with yours,
43:32
I will respect your boundaries, but I'm not going to ever shut
43:36
up about that. You know, if I want to talk
43:38
about and I'll talk about it and if you need your space, you can
43:41
absolutely communicate that to me or, or also withdraw, you
43:45
know, you don't have to right Sit there and listen to it or
43:49
you know, so my way of dealing with that was to teach them
43:53
healthy ways to set their boundaries, to communicate their
43:56
boundaries, but to also respect and accept that their spiritual
44:01
beliefs, even though they're my sons are different to mine.
44:04
You know, and that was really interesting because they were so
44:07
young that I wanted to foster that.
44:09
I wanted to foster that they have different spiritual beliefs
44:13
to me. Not, not all the time in some
44:15
ways. And to learn and to teach them
44:18
to talk about that in a healthy way and also respect each
44:23
other's differences and not all, I don't believe what you believe
44:27
in. That's OK to not believe what
44:30
other people believe in, but there are healthy ways to set
44:33
boundaries and communicate that and stay curious.
44:37
You don't have to shut everything down.
44:38
Stay curious. That's the biggest thing and the
44:40
biggest lesson I want to teach them.
44:43
I love that you've said to say, Kiri, because I've literally had
44:46
in my head that I was going to follow and that then you said
44:49
it. I'm like, yes, yeah.
44:50
Because even when we don't agree, we can always learn
44:53
something. And it also, you know, gives us
44:56
insight to why people respond and show up.
45:00
When we can tap into their stories and see where they're
45:03
coming from and their experiences.
45:05
It informs us and also informs us maybe on how we can support
45:11
them or show up for them or let us know to ask the question, not
45:16
assume we know. Because I think so many, you
45:19
pointed out so many examples already of people assume
45:23
sometimes they know how to show up for someone in their grief.
45:28
And it's like, maybe it's better to ask and not just assume or I
45:34
see this happening, you're not doing this.
45:37
So I'm going to come in and take control of the situation and and
45:41
make sure you're doing that, which that can happen with
45:44
parents, that can happen with siblings.
45:46
They because they want what's well for you and they think they
45:49
know I'm as guilty as any. Like I can come in.
45:55
Yeah, yeah, because I didn't know better.
45:58
And yeah, you think you're doing the right thing.
46:02
You think you, you want to help and I'm going to use that as a
46:05
very good example. What you just said.
46:06
You, you know, you have people come in and they want to take
46:09
over. Like what happened in our case
46:12
when Rob passed away, my house went to shambles.
46:17
Like really, my household was the last thing on my mind.
46:20
So it became really messy very quickly.
46:24
And did I like that? No, not at all.
46:26
Would I have needed it to be clearer and more open and
46:30
organized? 100%.
46:32
But was I able to do it? No.
46:34
Was I able to accept it in? No.
46:36
Because what happens, and this, this is what I really want the
46:40
listeners to pay very close attention to, what happens is
46:44
that every little thing is all of a sudden has emotional
46:51
attachment. So what looks like a messy pile
46:55
to you on, let's say, my my cupboard upstairs To me, that
47:02
was a pile of Rob's last itinerary that he had when he
47:06
was flying out. I couldn't touch that pile for
47:10
six months because it was the last itinerary of him flying out
47:14
and he didn't come home. I couldn't touch it.
47:16
I didn't want anybody to put it away.
47:18
That would have been so brutal to me.
47:20
I would have ripped something out that I wasn't ready to
47:22
address yet. So that is the biggest thing to
47:25
the outside world. They saw a messy house and on
47:29
the inside, everything, every tiny little thing had emotional
47:34
attachment. The last puppy used the last,
47:37
you know, it's it's all these things that are so emotional.
47:42
And I cannot put into words how important it is to not interfere
47:48
unless you are asked and enlighted in.
47:51
Yeah, thank you. So.
47:53
Much for that. Yeah, they're talking about 18
47:57
months to get my house sort of back into order.
48:00
And it was not like from one day to the next, it was an 18 months
48:04
process of getting there. And it I literally had.
48:10
So I decided to hire a professional organizer because
48:16
she was not connected with the emotional attachment that I had.
48:21
And she was incredible at holding space for me through the
48:24
process. She was incredible.
48:27
She was like that pile that I mentioned, like, let's just
48:31
leave that for next time. Let's work on something else.
48:33
She, she just, it was like she knew what to address first and
48:37
she started with the easier things first and it was so
48:40
helpful. So anybody living living through
48:43
that, if you can get the help of a professional organizer or get
48:47
the help of a friend that can do that with you.
48:50
Having somebody come in to hold space for you and not trying to
48:54
interfere and take over, that, that is the golden puzzle,
48:58
really. Yeah, yeah.
49:01
Well, I'm so thank you for addressing that.
49:03
I think that is so because so many times that's where people
49:06
think they can help. We'll bring in meals, we'll
49:08
clean the house, we'll do the laundry and like don't touch
49:11
that shirt smells like the last thing I want touch.
49:16
Don't touch that dish. It's the last thing he ate off
49:19
before he left and I'm not ready to let go of that yet.
49:22
That's powerful. And so again, it's like going
49:25
like don't assume and just hold space for and show up for.
49:31
And I'm reminding myself and picks as much as anyone when I
49:35
the next time I'm helping someone you know, with with
49:38
their grief is that don't assume I know and the how what that
49:45
should look like. And just if they say no and I'm
49:48
like, Are you sure? It's like just hold the space.
49:51
They'll do it. That's when their magic.
49:54
Happens exactly what you just said in this other.
49:57
We all need to learn to just hold space.
50:00
Just be there. But it's the most amazing gift
50:03
you can give to anyone to ask them cannot just come and sit
50:07
with you. And that is, you know, every
50:11
question that's a general one, actually, every question that
50:14
you ask somebody who's sitting in grief, make it as simple as
50:18
possible. Give them a yes or no answer.
50:22
Give them a yes or no question. You know where they can just say
50:24
yes or no. I often sit, you know the most.
50:29
The question most asked after a funeral, after a death, is let
50:36
me know if you need anything, OK?
50:40
I don't. Even know what I need the.
50:42
Most overwhelming question there is to be asked when you're
50:47
grieving because exactly what you just did.
50:50
I had no idea what I needed. I had no idea how to even ask
50:54
for help, how to allow somebody in when they've offered.
50:58
But when I always say to people that the easiest that you can do
51:02
is, hey, I would like to cook for you.
51:05
Would Tuesday or Thursday be easier for you?
51:08
And then they can go like, or actually Tuesday or hey, we're
51:11
good for meals, you know? Yeah.
51:14
And if they say, yeah, Tuesday would be good, you'd say, look,
51:17
I'm going to make lasagna or salad.
51:18
What what feels better? And I'm giving that as an
51:21
example because most people assumed, and that's a really big
51:26
one because I know I don't want this to sound ungrateful at all.
51:30
We were so grateful for the food roster that was arranged for us.
51:35
However, most people assume that you need grounding food and you
51:40
can't stomach it. You need light food, light and
51:44
nurturing. Lasagna, pasta, that's what was
51:48
brought over a lot. I could not eat it.
51:50
I could not touch it. It was too heavy in my stomach.
51:53
If you have a heavy heart, you need light meals.
51:56
That's, that's really bizarre. But it really is like that.
51:59
I've never said it in those words before.
52:01
I look at it, it really is beautiful because I remember the
52:06
first I, I hadn't eaten for like 2-3 days.
52:10
So after Rock died, I just could not handle or stomach anything.
52:14
And I remember when we were staying with this beautiful
52:17
family in Perth, they used to be our neighbors and they took us
52:20
in when Rob passed away. And I was so grateful because
52:24
we're passed in a hotel in Perth.
52:25
And the last place I wanted to be in was in a hotel in Perth.
52:28
So they took us in and he she said to me where you need to eat
52:32
something. What do you feel like?
52:33
I bring whatever you want. Just tell me what you feel like.
52:36
And I said I carried. How weird is that?
52:39
I just, I just wanted something light and nurturing.
52:42
And all I could eat was, you know, anyway, yeah, that's just
52:45
one of many, many things that's. So helpful though, and it makes
52:50
so much sense when you articulate like that.
52:53
So thank you so much for sharing that.
52:55
I know that's, that's vulnerable, but it's, it's
52:57
really, really important those what we think of as little
53:01
things can really be big things. And so just, yeah, just that how
53:08
can I, you know, and I'd love that, that specificity of the
53:12
questions because your mind must just be swirling with so much.
53:16
It's like, I cannot make another decision.
53:20
I cannot, you know, do anything other than just simple basic yes
53:25
or no questions. I don't have the capacity.
53:28
So thank you so much for articulating that.
53:30
So helpful in it when it comes to your layers, and I talk about
53:36
this a lot, the the accepting, the layered aspects of
53:39
ourselves, those aspects of our lives, these are layers.
53:42
We don't love all the layers, but they are part of what makes
53:46
up who we are, makes up a life. Talk to me about your layers
53:50
journey. You said something so important
53:52
earlier about how you had this soul agreement and I'm not using
53:58
the right words exactly, but it was like you guys made this sole
54:03
decision for yourselves and, and how that can like, be like.
54:09
I wouldn't. Yeah, I I talked to another
54:12
guest about this about a year and a half ago.
54:15
Christina Ramirez. Her story's quite similar to
54:17
yours, actually. And, and I remember her talking
54:20
about the fact that like there is nothing about our 20 years
54:25
together that I would change nothing, not one minute, 1
54:30
moment of any day. No matter all the grief, no
54:32
matter all the sadness, I wouldn't change a thing.
54:36
She's like. And so that is, that's a layer
54:39
that I have both. Yes, this brought me my greatest
54:42
sadness. It all also brought me my
54:45
greatest joy in the greatest time.
54:47
And also I can move forward and live forward from this.
54:52
And she described it in such a way.
54:53
She's like, here's this, this time that happened with the
54:56
grief. And she goes and this is always
54:59
here. But then it my circle keeps
55:01
expanding out as I continue to live my life.
55:04
So this doesn't change. My life continues to evolve and
55:10
grow. And that's how I acknowledge and
55:12
embrace all the layers and pieces that make that up.
55:15
Does that sound familiar to you or did you have a different way
55:19
of processing that? Very, very different way.
55:22
It's a very common way a lot of people, but there's also very
55:27
famous main that keeps being sent around where the circle 3
55:31
stays the same, but the circle you know around them expand.
55:35
So grief seems smaller, but it's still the same.
55:38
I don't agree with that at all. People didn't feel true in my
55:42
case. So I'm saying that very
55:44
respectfully because it I don't, it doesn't mean that it's not
55:47
true for you. I, you know, this whole, I'm
55:51
very big on language, as you can imagine, I've mentioned a few
55:54
things already along the way. I feel that language can be very
55:59
nurturing or very debilitating, depending on how you use it, in
56:02
particular in grief, you know, and when you space, as in
56:06
there'll always be a hole in my heart.
56:09
I don't agree with that because you is literally apart from the
56:12
fact that you literally can't live with a hole in your heart,
56:15
but I much prefer the language I use.
56:19
There'll always be space in my heart and it is so different.
56:22
It is so different how it feels, and that's exactly what feels
56:27
right to me. There'll always be a space in my
56:29
heart for Rob, and that expands my heart.
56:31
That means that there's more space in my heart.
56:34
It doesn't mean that the size of grief stays the same.
56:37
So I look at it from a very different perspective, as in
56:42
grieve to me. I treat grief like a visitor.
56:46
I don't treat grief like somebody who lives up with us
56:49
permanently and will always be there.
56:52
When grief first came into her house, she was quite
56:56
overpowering and she just hung around for quite some time until
57:00
I said, you know what? If oversight, you're welcome,
57:03
you're not welcome here anymore. You can come and visit, but
57:06
you're not living here permanently.
57:08
Joy, on the other hand, she lives with us permanently and
57:11
every now and then and she goes to the markets and she's not
57:14
here and that's fine. And weekly enough.
57:19
That's often the time when Grieve knocks on our door and
57:21
comes back in. But we had times where the three
57:23
of us sat together and had really good conversations where
57:26
we cried and laughed and had conversations about Rob.
57:29
And we are quite familiar with each other now.
57:31
And I was so intimate with Grief that we sat together in our
57:36
bathtub and sobbed together. So we know each other really
57:39
well. And I know her well enough to
57:41
say, here's the door or enough, you know, that's I don't always
57:45
have time for you when you come in.
57:47
Sometimes I'm working and other times it's fine.
57:51
Just drop in. She sometimes drops in
57:53
completely unannounced. And as I said, at times it's
57:56
fine. If I have time for her, I sit
57:57
with her. And if not, I say, you have to
57:59
come back another time. Just can't do this right now.
58:01
That's a very suitable explanation for me how I treat
58:04
grief. But she certainly doesn't live
58:07
here anymore in our house. And, and I know that and I feel
58:11
that very deeply when I talk to the boys as well.
58:13
They seem the same way. You know, they, they come and
58:16
say that it's sometimes again, it's the expectation of society.
58:21
It's something that has stayed with you forever.
58:24
It doesn't have to be like that. It doesn't have to be like that.
58:28
Yes, grief is always around. Grief is everywhere, everywhere
58:32
you look. Everybody's experiencing it.
58:35
That's experiencing it at different times and the
58:37
different intensities, but it doesn't mean that she lives in
58:41
everybody's houses all the time, every single day.
58:44
I don't agree with that. And if that helps, because I, I
58:48
came up with this explanation, not even seeing the parallels of
58:51
my story, what that I'm sharing, somebody said to me, Oh, so it's
58:55
like inside out the movie. And I'm like, oh, exactly.
58:59
That's exactly it. You know, like brief might be
59:01
there and around somewhere, but she's not always on the on the
59:04
switchboard, you know, yes, yes. So it depends on how you see it,
59:08
if you want to have it as she's always around, but she's not
59:10
always on the switchboard. Or I much prefer my analogy
59:14
where she's not always in their house.
59:16
You know, she's not around a lot anymore these days.
59:19
And that's OK. We just had Rob's passing
59:23
anniversary last week and that was some surprisingly deep and
59:29
intense for me. And there were a lot of tears
59:32
and I felt it really deeply. And that really came to a
59:37
surprise for me because it's been 7 years now and I had other
59:39
anniversaries where I didn't feel as intense.
59:42
But this? One really hit me and somebody
59:44
said, oh, you know, there's a there's this sacred cycle, 7
59:48
years where maybe that's an explanation.
59:50
I don't know. But I don't need an explanation
59:52
for that. I just felt it.
59:53
I sat with it, I sobbed and it was good.
59:56
I just needed to release that. I had my moment with grief in
59:59
the bathtub again, and that was good.
1:00:01
I really needed that, That release the bathtub moment just
1:00:07
being this hot soothing. Yeah, it was good.
1:00:11
And. Find whatever works for you in
1:00:14
that moment. Don't don't listen to what other
1:00:16
people say. Is the right thing the wrong
1:00:19
thing? If, if that circle analogy works
1:00:21
where you go with it. If the visitor analogy works for
1:00:24
for you, you can have it, you know, it's it's absolutely
1:00:28
whatever works for you as long as you are looking after
1:00:31
yourself and you're putting that oxygen mask on you first.
1:00:36
Yes. Self love, self compassion.
1:00:39
Yeah. Such a good explanation of that.
1:00:41
Thank you so much for sharing that.
1:00:43
I kind of knew that answer, but I wanted you to share it with
1:00:46
because we talked about it when we met the first time.
1:00:49
But I wanted you to share that because I and I wanted it to be
1:00:52
your words because it's powerful and it's important.
1:00:56
And it's such a reminder that when you're processing these
1:00:59
things, whatever grief it is that you're dealing with, that
1:01:03
you keep intentional about making sure it connects with you
1:01:08
and that you're not trying to appease or live by some other
1:01:13
societal expectation, familial expectation, whatever it is, or
1:01:18
just it. And really get curious about
1:01:20
that when something comes up, if it doesn't feel, it feels up to
1:01:24
you, get curious. Where's that coming from?
1:01:26
What's that narrative? Is that narrative true?
1:01:29
Or is that just something that I've heard over and over again
1:01:32
and I've, you know, and treated it as the truth, But for me,
1:01:35
that's actually not true. And so I need to do this in a.
1:01:39
For me, it's actually not true. That's so important.
1:01:41
There's way too many people stay stuck in grief because they
1:01:44
think that's what they have to do because grief never goes
1:01:46
away, right? So they have to stay stuck in it
1:01:49
because that's what's expected. And the amount of times I work
1:01:54
because as I said to you, I've taken literally thousands of
1:01:57
people on their path to healing over 5000 by now.
1:02:00
And the amount of times that I have spoken to someone and they
1:02:06
live by that because that's what's expected.
1:02:09
That's that's horrible. That's just so sad.
1:02:12
Like, well, what do you want? Do you want to stay sad or do
1:02:14
you want to be happy? It's such a simple answer, a
1:02:17
question, and the answer is very simple as well.
1:02:19
Most people just really want to be happy.
1:02:21
But allowing it is a very different, different situation.
1:02:25
And also depending on cultural expectation, too, you know,
1:02:28
that's another layer, yeah. That's a whole other layer and
1:02:31
I'm glad you brought that up because there is a whole
1:02:33
cultural expectation of what it's supposed to look like, how
1:02:36
you're supposed to dress, what you're supposed to wear, what
1:02:38
you can and can't attend, who you can and can't be seen with.
1:02:41
I mean, there's so many pieces and parts that go with that and
1:02:45
also too, but I think that also the guilt sometimes it can come
1:02:49
up with. Should I?
1:02:50
Be feeling this joy. Should I be feeling this happy?
1:02:53
What are what are the neighbors going to think?
1:02:56
Yes, exactly. If you're feeling it and it
1:02:59
feels authentic to you, then that's your answer.
1:03:02
And I and I think trusting that. So thank you for laying that out
1:03:06
so beautifully in in living, yeah, in living out feel,
1:03:11
finding empowerment, embracing layers that the acronym for this
1:03:15
show. You do that so beautifully and
1:03:18
you've modeled that for your kids to talk to me about that in
1:03:24
Yes, I go back to you talked about that empowering word
1:03:27
coming up for you that surprised you, but yet has been a fuel for
1:03:31
you in moving forward. Talk to me about how that's
1:03:34
impacted your relationship with yourself as well as your
1:03:38
relationship with other people. I guess the biggest thing for me
1:03:45
with empowerment and grief was finding those Silver Linings in
1:03:52
everything I do. I have a real talent for seeing
1:03:58
a positive in everything I do. And and shifting language, you
1:04:03
know, that's such a big thing. Changing language for people,
1:04:06
changing perspective for people. That to me is where the
1:04:10
empowerment lies because most people, and I'm going to use
1:04:15
moms in particular as an example here because it's very, very
1:04:18
suitable and it goes for a lot of people.
1:04:19
But I'm going to use this as an example.
1:04:22
I have talked to so many moms that have used sentences such as
1:04:28
well, I have to carry on for my kids and I often stop them when
1:04:33
they say that. I said, did you have to?
1:04:36
And they're like, what do you mean?
1:04:38
I'm like, well, did you have to? It's like, yeah, you have to.
1:04:41
I was like, well, you, you don't have to.
1:04:43
You choose to do that. And I know it's such a, such an
1:04:47
overused coaching lingo to say like, well, well, you choose to,
1:04:51
you don't have to. But it still works in my head
1:04:53
every time. And so he says I have to.
1:04:54
I'm like, well, I choose to. I choose to, I choose to, I
1:04:57
choose to. And Rob was the one who taught
1:04:59
me the lesson about having choices, you know, way before I
1:05:02
went into coaching. But apart from that little
1:05:06
thing, choices are not Moms often come from this perspective
1:05:11
of, well, I have to carry on for my children.
1:05:14
And I said so here are all the choices and most of them are not
1:05:18
healthy and I'm not recommending you go there.
1:05:20
But so many people fall into either being on antidepressants,
1:05:29
on antidepressants for too long, being into drugs, alcohol, some
1:05:35
of them unfortunately even suicide.
1:05:37
They're all very unhealthy choices that often happen
1:05:41
because you don't see the other choices.
1:05:44
You can't see them. You don't, you know, you're
1:05:47
either your vision is blurry or you are so overwhelmed that you
1:05:50
don't have that clarity of everything that is available to
1:05:54
you. So there are other choices, but
1:05:57
the fact that you got out of bed this morning to make your lunch
1:06:00
box for your kids and you showed up, that is a choice.
1:06:04
You might not be consciously aware of it, but you have chosen
1:06:07
this and I want you to own it. You found something really
1:06:10
amazing, something really powerful, something that took
1:06:13
you a lot of strength. So own it.
1:06:17
And that often is the tiny little shift they needed to hear
1:06:21
because the outcome is the same. The perspective is vastly
1:06:23
different, and that's always the same, the same thing.
1:06:26
The app is the same. The perspective he did is
1:06:28
different. I said that to a lady that came
1:06:31
to my retreat who lost her husband, and she used that
1:06:35
sentence. I'm still angry at the hospital
1:06:37
for leaving me. And I looked at her and I said,
1:06:44
may ioffer you a refrain. And she said, yeah.
1:06:48
I said your husband didn't leave you, he died.
1:06:53
The outcome is the same, the perspective, the intention
1:06:57
vastly different. And that is really important to
1:07:00
look at that for what it actually is because people don't
1:07:04
die to leave you. That's not what it is.
1:07:07
You know, they die because it was their time, because there
1:07:09
was an accident, because they, whatever your spiritual belief
1:07:12
is if it's your time or not, but they died because there was a
1:07:16
sickness or an accident or something that happened that
1:07:19
took their life. Fact, harsh fact, yes, but it's
1:07:24
a fact. They did not leave you.
1:07:27
Leaving. Somebody needs an intention to
1:07:30
do so. They didn't have the intention
1:07:33
to leave you. That that's the one thing that I
1:07:36
really need everybody to understand.
1:07:39
The person who died did not have an intention to leave you, maybe
1:07:43
on a spiritual level because it was part of your store contract,
1:07:46
but that's a different level. You know what I mean?
1:07:48
And it's really important to understand that from a human
1:07:51
perspective. Yeah, but it's, it's incredible.
1:07:55
So I'm very, very big on working with words, working with
1:07:59
perspectives, reframing things for people.
1:08:02
You know, the whole my, my favorite reframe is coming from
1:08:07
I got to to, I get to that's simplest one letter difference
1:08:12
that makes the huge difference. You know, I got to, I get to,
1:08:16
I've got to live my life. I've got to carry on.
1:08:18
I get to live my life. I get to carry on.
1:08:21
That's that's a gift, yeah. It changes every your tone of
1:08:27
voice, your, your, the way your face with your facial
1:08:31
expressions change when you say 1 versus the other.
1:08:36
And we underestimate the power that has on our nervous system,
1:08:41
our psyche, our, you know, all of those things.
1:08:44
So thank you so much for that. That's really powerful because I
1:08:47
talked about a lot on here so many times women feel stuck and
1:08:51
they and they can't see. It's like well and so changing
1:08:55
that framework of I choose this, I get to do this changes
1:09:00
everything and and and the and emboldening them.
1:09:03
Like you chose to show up today. You chose to put on your clothes
1:09:08
and put 1 foot in front of another.
1:09:10
That took incredible strength. You made that choice and in
1:09:15
taking the have to to reframing that into a choice.
1:09:20
And I'd love also to what you said about the leading, the
1:09:24
versus the dying. Wow, so different, so powerful.
1:09:29
Thank you so much for that. So much wisdom.
1:09:31
Oh my gosh, so good. Marie, I could talk to you all
1:09:35
day. I think what you're doing is so
1:09:36
important. I think it's powerful.
1:09:40
It's the, it's a perspective and language and resource that we
1:09:44
need in the world to help empower people when they're in
1:09:50
these spaces and they and they need something to guiding light,
1:09:55
something to hold on to, to help them feel like themselves and
1:09:59
feel free to feel like themselves.
1:10:01
So thank you so much for how you show up in the world.
1:10:04
All these resources are going to be on our website and we'll give
1:10:07
you a chance to share that in a moment.
1:10:09
But before we do that, talk to me about 5 activities that
1:10:14
nourish you. My my favorite is I have started
1:10:21
going to Kahuna massages. So it's a Hawaiian healing
1:10:25
massage and I've been doing that for at least four years now and
1:10:29
I go every three to five weeks. I just really need it.
1:10:33
It's my nurturing moment. It's a 2 hour massage.
1:10:36
It's all about me. It's a physical touch that's
1:10:39
really important as well when you're breathing.
1:10:41
I feel that quite strongly. That's one I love going into
1:10:48
nature. So for me, I live so close to
1:10:50
the beach. I just drive them there in 10
1:10:52
minutes. I love going to the beach, just
1:10:55
putting my feet in the sand barefoot.
1:10:57
That's a really big one. Another one, also nature
1:11:00
related. I live right in the middle of
1:11:02
the National Park, so when I look out there, all I see is
1:11:04
green and I can literally walk out the door and I'm in in the
1:11:08
Bush and I, I, I leave the house when I get stuck when I get
1:11:12
over, I just leave the house sometimes even in my in my Ugg
1:11:15
boots, which is the Australian, you know what Ugg boots are?
1:11:19
I don't know. Oh, yeah, absolutely.
1:11:21
Oh yeah. They should be known around the
1:11:23
world. So it absolutely ends in winter.
1:11:25
It's like, yeah, they're so warm right out and it's yeah, it's
1:11:29
perfect. So that I I love just having
1:11:33
like a good girly chat, you know, just going to a cafe and
1:11:38
and having a conversation. I'm so my love languages are
1:11:41
physical touch and quality times.
1:11:43
I'm very much one-on-one conversations.
1:11:45
This is my thing. Or sometimes I just love taking
1:11:49
my laptop to a cafe. People watch, take myself into a
1:11:54
different environment. It's it's box of creative
1:11:56
juices. I and I know this is 6th one
1:11:59
now, but I'm going to add that music, music is everything for
1:12:03
me. So it can lift your mood.
1:12:05
It can help you cry when you need a big cry and you haven't
1:12:08
cried for a long time and you can feel it sitting in your
1:12:10
throat and you just can't force yourself to cry.
1:12:13
But it can help if you watch a sad movie or sad music when you
1:12:18
need a release. Not so you're sad because
1:12:22
society expected. When, exactly?
1:12:25
Put some music on hot bar. Whatever, you know?
1:12:29
So anything that feels nurturing to you, go for it.
1:12:33
Absolutely. Yeah.
1:12:35
At least once a day. Oh.
1:12:37
Yes, yes, such an important part of our self-care.
1:12:40
Absolutely. So good. 5 words on how you want
1:12:43
to feel the next six months. Oh, successful, happy, loved,
1:12:50
excited and calm at times. Yeah, absolutely.
1:13:01
I understand that. Oh my gosh.
1:13:03
All right. Like I said, so appreciative of
1:13:05
your time today, how you show up in the world, the resources you
1:13:08
offer. Let people know where they can
1:13:10
find you, follow you. And like I said, this is also
1:13:13
going to be in our website at embracinglayers.com on our
1:13:16
resources page. But let people know real quick.
1:13:19
The symbols is Marie alessi.com. That's my website.
1:13:22
And from there at the bottom of it, there are all my socials
1:13:25
where you can follow, connect, like whatever you want to do.
1:13:29
I also have a book Marie button, which is literally you can book
1:13:33
a chat with me like this is just have a conversation.
1:13:36
If you want to know how I can help you, how I can support you,
1:13:40
just let's jump on a Zoom call. Like I always offer like a 1520
1:13:44
minute, just a free conversation because I don't believe in
1:13:49
pushing people into something they don't know what it is
1:13:51
about. So if you're uncertain, let's
1:13:53
have a chat and then we can see. And sometimes it is me referring
1:13:58
you to somebody else because I'm not the answer for everyone.
1:14:00
Definitely not. You know, I can tell you how I
1:14:03
can help you or refer you to other people when I feel that's
1:14:06
more appropriate. So yeah, leave in doubt, send me
1:14:09
an e-mail or have a chat with me.
1:14:11
Great. Oh my gosh, thank you so much.
1:14:13
Any last thoughts you want to leave with our listeners today?
1:14:20
Yeah, when you are stuck in grief, and I do know that
1:14:24
happens a lot, just slip into the perspective of love and ask
1:14:30
yourself what would love for you to do.
1:14:33
That has become such an internal mantra for me.
1:14:36
What would love to? That's all I'm going to leave
1:14:39
you with right now because I think that's it enough.
1:14:42
That's beautiful and that's how we're going to leave that
1:14:45
conversation today. Listeners, I know this is going
1:14:48
to be a great resource for you, so take that with you today.
1:14:52
Take good care of yourselves. If you need access to Marie, go
1:14:56
to embracinglayers.com. Pick up those resources.
1:14:59
Thanks so much again for taking the time with me today.
1:15:02
I appreciate you so much. Thank you.
1:15:04
Thank you for creating this space and thanks for having me,
1:15:06
Melissa. Thank you.
1:15:08
Absolutely. All right, listeners, take good
1:15:10
care and we'll see you next time here on the Field podcast.
1:15:14
Hello and thank you so much for being with us today on this
1:15:18
episode of the Feel podcast. If you would like more
1:15:22
information on how you can apply these talking points that I
1:15:26
share with our guests in each episode to your own life, really
1:15:31
utilize this Feel framework, go to embracinglayers.com, fill out
1:15:36
our contact form, and let's set up a free 30 minute consultation
1:15:42
to talk about how you can start leaving your most authentic,
1:15:46
organic, healthy, feel fueled life.
1:15:50
Thanks again for being with us today.
1:15:52
We'll be back to you soon with another episode here on the Feel
1:15:55
Podcast.