Latest / To All the Men I've Tolerated Before / Embracing the Crone Era

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Embracing the Crone Era · To All the Men I've Tolerated Before

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Hey tolerators, this is To All The Men I've Tolerated
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Before with Natalie Katona, your weekly look at everyday misogyny.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: Today is a very special day. I have a very
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: dear friend and mentor on the show. Kate is an artist,
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: an attorney, and a longtime magical practitioner. Her chrome life
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: moves between creative work, legal advocacy, community building, and an
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: ongoing interest in the ways place, identity, and change. Oh,
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: I missed a word. Change the shape process and change
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: shape the process. I can't read because Matt Mercer hugged me.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: My brain has been off ever since. process of becoming
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: for us all. And we're going to talk about the
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: crone era. And mostly, this is just a way for
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: me to have you all be so blown away by
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: Kate's energy and how much she's taught me in my
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: entire life, and how ever since we've become friends via
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: the internet, and The internet is great.
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: My soul and my brain and my heart have just
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: expanded in so many ways. So thank you so much
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: for being here, Kate.
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: I am super excited to be here. And every time
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: I talk to you, I just feel like I am
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: in the presence of a fucking superstar. So it makes
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: me very, very happy. And I'm so honored that you
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: asked me to be here.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you. I don't know what to do when
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: people call me a superstar. I'm like, my nephews didn't
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: even ask about me when I was gone. I asked
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: my sister, I was like, did the boys ask about me?
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: And she went, you know, they didn't.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: Kids are stupid. That's all I have to say about that.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: But is there any background information you would want to
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: give about yourself, That wasn't covered in the bio. Should
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: we go over how we met? What do we want
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: to do to get people to get to know you?
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: I feel like I've lived many lives in my... I'm 62,
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: which still just fucking blows me away. I'm an old, punky...
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: I'm a Gen Xer, an elder Gen Xer, kind of
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: a cuspy Gen Xer, but grew up in a pretty... chaotic,
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: awful circumstance, not the greatest parents, wonderful grandparents. That's why
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: I'm a semi-normal human. They took up the slack for
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: some not so great parents. I've traveled a lot. I've
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: done a lot of stuff. My magical practice, my witch life,
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: I've been kind of witchy for probably, gosh, since I
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: was in my late teens, early 20s. I've been a
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: tarot reader, not ever professionally. It's something that I just
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: kind of have done for fun and for free and
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: for friends. I love tarot. I love, I love any
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: kind of, uh, kind of dirt witchery and things like that. It's,
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: it's very healing and, and helpful for me. And I
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: think it was probably one of the ways that I
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: made up for, for some of the things that, that
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: I did need from other people and sort of found
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: ways to give that to myself through, uh, connecting with
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: the earth. and elements and understanding that the universe is
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: really big and that I'm part of it. And so
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: the universe kind of became my family. But I've had
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: many adventures. And of course, I met you through one
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: of those where I was during COVID just kind of
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: looking for a way to connect with other magical folk
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: out there. And that's how we ended up meeting. Yeah.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: And controversial, because I say it a lot. Taking that
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: time out of the daily grind of American capitalistic life
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: and having to be put on pause and put on rest,
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: I met some of the best people and I did
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: some of the best things for myself ever during that time.
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for real, without a doubt. And I think that
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: that just speaks to... I mean, it was a horrible
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: way for all of us to have an enforced break
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: for a while. But I will say it certainly hit
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: home how important it is for people to have those
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: periods of rest. And it really did change the way
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: that I... viewed my work life versus my, you know,
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: my other life, because it can be very easy to
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: kind of get into this grind where you don't separate
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: out like the, you know, what you do to make
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: money so you can have stuff you want, you know,
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: versus what you need to do to just feel good
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: about your life.
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: Uh speaking of life and all of its different phases
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: when you think of these three pillars these three like
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: eras or stages of life that were kind of part
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: of historical witchcraft is what i like to call it
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: where we have the maiden who eventually turns into the
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: mother of who eventually turns into the crone. How have
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: you interpreted that in a historical context, but also in
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: a modern day, what we're currently living through context?
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I, I think, you know, it's interesting because I,
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: I was very much into, uh, in the beginning of when,
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: when I started checking out, like, you know, all of
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: the stuff that was going on in the, I was
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: never a Wiccan, but there was a lot of Wiccan
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: stuff going on, you know, in the say early nineties
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: from then on. Um, so I, the whole maiden mother
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: crone thing, I love the triple goddess. I actually have
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: a triple goddess tattoo on my, uh, I guess like
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: right above my ass. So, you know, my tree stamp
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: is basically a triple moon and, But so when I
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: was younger, it it made sense of. where I was
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: at the time because I could see like, okay, this is,
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: this is kind of what my life as, and, and,
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: you know, I am, I was, I was born female.
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: I've always identified as female, although I'm, I'm queer and
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: have been always. Uh, but it, it gave me sort
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: of a sense of like, okay, this is, this is
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: where I'm at. So it was, it was kind of
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: like a, I don't know, it, it wasn't anything that
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: I really identified with so much as when I was younger.
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: As a mother, I have, uh, I birthed two children,
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: two boys. Um, they're adults now, uh, that, and, and
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: I did that. as a single mother, I didn't, I
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: chose not to be married and not to have a
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: traditional kind of get married and have kids life. I
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: had kids later. My, my oldest son, I, I was
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: 31 when he was born. A lot of my, my friends,
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: I come from West Texas where, you know, it was
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: you were considered kind of over the hill if you
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: made it through college and hadn't gotten married and had
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: kids by that point. So I, you know, I could
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: relate to that in my magical practice. I, you know, I,
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: I was like, okay, now I'm the mother, I'm the nurturer. I'm,
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: but I was always a little mother. I was always. And,
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: and so I think those things as I've gotten older,
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: I realized like those things, made mother crone they're kind
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: of they're interchangeable because I still am very much like
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: a kid I probably more so than ever you know
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: as I get older I just I my happiest life
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: is doing all of the things that my five-year-old self
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: loved you know that's I think that in the older
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: I get that's just my goal is I'm just going
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: to revert back to being like my five-year-old self.
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: Well and I Again, could it be the ADHD? Could
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: it be the magic that lives within? I have such
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: a hard time tracking time to begin with. And I
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: always say that I just live outside of time, like
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: Mariah Carey. I don't recognize it. Men made it up.
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: Why would I ever care about it? And my friend
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: who did an energy reading on me told me she goes, no,
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: that's like written into your energy that you actually see
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: everything outside of time. And you know that it's all
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: made up. You can see directly through it. So, you know,
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: I am Mariah Carey, basically.
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: I think that that's a great way to, I think
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: that's a great way to express like just the way that,
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: I think that's a great way to see life and,
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: you know, not to, not to take it down by
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: a time clock or hours, um, you know, and getting to,
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: when I finally did, you know, go through menopause when,
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: you know, which, thank goodness. That was just like, I
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: was so happy. I was just like, fuck, finally. Um,
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: But what and it didn't change it. You know, I
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: think a lot of when I was when I was
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: going through the other phases of my life and looking
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: at getting older, I used to always just think of like,
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: you know, when you're old people that they're not, they're
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: just kind of crusty old pantsuit wearing cranks that, you know,
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: smoke Salem's and drink lots of coffee or, you know, whatever.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: Like I had this very kind of Yeah, like in
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: my generation, like my grandparents were Depression era, you know,
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: adults and kids. And they, you know, they had lived
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: through the World Wars and things like that. So like
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: my impression of an old person was a really old
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: person that looked really old. And I think now it's
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: just so different. it's so fascinating to me because what,
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: you know, what is, I don't look like what my
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: grandmother looked like when she was 62 at all, you know?
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: And a lot of people tend to say always like,
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: oh my gosh, I didn't, you know, people are shocked
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: when I tell them, you know, like how old I am.
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: And they'll be like, oh, you look so young. You
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: look so, but I, And I don't like that. I
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: don't get any buzz out of that. Like that doesn't like,
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: I don't go, Oh yeah, I look really young for
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: my age. Thanks. Cause I look my age. I am
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: what a 62 year old woman looks like. I may
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: not look like what every 62 year old woman looks like,
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: but I there's, there's quite a few of us that
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: look pretty similar to what I look like. And I
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: think we're going to see a whole bunch of, you know,
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: so-called old people that are, they're going to be harder
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: to pick out in a crowd because they pretty much
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: look like everybody else now. Yeah.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: Well, and so sometimes I'll get myself caught into this
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: web where I'll feel like I have to ground myself
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: to the age that I am, which is so hard
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: as a 37 year old in 2026, because none of
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: us millennials got to actually do any of these indicators
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: that are like, And you two are a grown up.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: Like we've had a lot of career turmoil. We've had
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: a lot of non-home ownership. A lot of us are
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: choosing to not go the traditional route with raising children,
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: raising families, things like that. So in my head, I'm
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: always like, and I'm still just but a girl. But
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: then I was making those friendship bracelets for Gen Con.
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: And all of a sudden it hit me where I
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: was like, Is it creepy to be 40 years old
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: and handing people bracelets because you don't know how else
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: to make friends?
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to tell you just... you know, so
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: you don't feel so alone. I spent the last month
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: making friendship bracelets that said, fuck ice and chinga la
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: migra that I hand out in the courthouse every time
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: I go. And it's one of the things that gives
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: me the greatest pleasure. And hey, I really feel like
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: I'm creating a little club of people wearing these little bracelets.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: So yeah, well, and Because I really did have to stop.
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: And I was like, listen, I know that I'm doing
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: a lot of things late in life. I'm doing the
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: whole queer journey late in life. I've decided that I'm
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: going to be a famous lady or at least a
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: lady that wins awards late in life. I go, but
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: to be at a convention center, just chatting with people
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: who are more than happy to chat with me and
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: to also be like, But also you get to drink it.
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: Good for you. I was like, at what point is
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: that weird? When I told my sister about this weird,
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: insecure moment I was having, she's like, do you mean
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: like that one time I was on? I was at
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: that truck stop and that older lady was handing out
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: single drinks. pudding packs out to children in the restroom.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: And I was like, do not take pudding packs from
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: a lady in a restroom. I go, well, I don't
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: think it's that bad. But you tell me. Do you
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: think it's that bad? Would you chase children from me
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: about my friendship bracelets?
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: No, that's, you're not, you're definitely not like restroom snack
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: pack level at this point. Hey, I will, I will
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: promise you this. I will intervene if I feel like
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: you're getting to that point.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: We'll, we'll have a sit down. Yeah.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: It did. It also made me like think about because
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: I've also been having this meltdown recently where it's like.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: A lot of my friends who are currently my age
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: and women are also experiencing either unemployment or underemployment where
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: we're not actually seeing payment matching our skills and we
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: get down on ourselves about it. Like eventually you just
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: fucking feel sad. You just well.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: The, the great thing that I see though, and, and
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: I will say the difference and where I, I try
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: to find little, little rays of light where I can, because, um, the,
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: the thing that I see though, with your generation and
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: younger is the same or worse bullshit that you have
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: to tolerate and put up with from this horrid, horrid
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: patriarchal system that is, you know, seems to be bloated
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: and growing even bigger, you know, all the time. But
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: what I see different now is you're not having to
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: get married to survive. And, and that is, and I
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: can tell you that I know in my grandparents' generation,
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: in my, my parents' generation, in my generation, um, I
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: saw that happen a lot. And so I think if
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: there's anything that's getting better, I think that women in particular,
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: and when I say women, I mean all women, cis women,
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: trans women, any women, and just people. I think we're
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: getting a lot better and a lot wilier about the
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: ways that we give each other community care and mutual support.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: That's a really great point. Because when my friends and
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: I get into these low points where we're just really
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: fucking sad and fed up with... It's hard. It's hard.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: It's so hard.
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: Eventually, you feel like a loser. I'm like, oh, gotta
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: wake up again today. Gotta pretend that all of these
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: jobs on Indeed.com are real. And yeah. And I have
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: been telling my friends, I go, here's the thing. We're
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: not 25 anymore. And we know that once women leave
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: the maiden era and enter into the mother era, society
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: disregards us and discards us. I go, I'm never going
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: to have that meet cute anymore with a guy who's
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: immediately going to go, I can probably take advantage of her.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: And then he's going to give me a job to
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: prove it. Yeah.
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: No, that, I mean, it is a very, and I
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: think we've gotten, you know, while I think we've gotten
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: more adaptive to the kind of misogyny that is out there,
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: I see that, you know, it is just so much
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: more insidious and it's so.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: It can really, you know, it can just, it can
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: be so, so much harder. I had a, you know,
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: I don't think that there's ever been a generation of
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: women or any other people because, you know, the experience
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: that we have as women, it's all connected. It's connected
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: to the experience that queer people have that, you know,
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: very obviously, you know, out, Out there or even perceived
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: as gay men have. It's just, you know, like any
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: kind of any people of color. It's just that that
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: really fucked up thing of of how do I survive
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: when everybody in, you know, the power structure is telling
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: me that I am less than that. I don't matter. And,
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: you know, we all kind of have our ways. of coping.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: I come from a generation where the initial way to
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: cope and what we were taught how to cope was
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: to be beautiful and to be desirable and to be
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: funny and to apologize if you ever said anything that
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: might make a man uncomfortable. Those types of things. And
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: then that's why like when when I hit my my
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: teen years and like I discovered the world of punk,
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: that fucking saved me. I mean, I think it I
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: think it. It saved me in so many ways. It
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: didn't keep me from having really terrible experiences. I still,
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: you know, I don't even know what the statistic is anymore.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: But I mean, like me and almost every single other
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: woman I know either was, you know, molested as a
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: kid or. sexually assaulted as a, as a, you know,
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: an adult or had a near miss with that, you know,
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: or something where, Hey, it turns out I really was abused,
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: but you know, like I always, I kind of joke
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: about my dad, but I'm always like, yeah, well, the
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: best thing I can say about my dad is at
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: least he didn't fuck me. You know, and I used
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: to always be like, oh, I didn't have as bad
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: as this person or that person. But hey, my dad
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: used to beat me every other day with a belt
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: until I was black and blue. But somehow I was
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: raised not to perceive that as being abused in any way.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: You know, but it just but but but punk just
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: really gave me it made it OK for me to
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: be angry. It made it OK for me to not be.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: have to, to twist myself into some fucked up beauty
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: standard that I, that I was never going to fit
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: into anyway. Um, but I didn't never want to. And
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: so that it made it okay for me to be, to,
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: to be a weirdo and to be, and I was
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: a beautiful weirdo. I went back and I'm like, Oh
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: my God, you know, how did I, how did I
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: not see what a, what an amazing little creature I
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: was back then, you know? And, uh, but, but you never, it's,
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: it is a struggle, I think, to overcome that, whatever
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: it is that they teach us from the time we're
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: little kids, just to fucking hate ourselves.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. I have started to view it as
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: a direct attack against feminine joy and like, the way
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: that we commodify and objectify girls from the moment that
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: we think it's appropriate to do that to just how discarded,
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: you know, older women start to feel from society. I, I,
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: And it's so confusing to me. And again, it might
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: be the ADHD. It might be the spectrum. Who knows?
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: Because when I was growing up, the older women now,
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: mind you, I thought that this included my mom and
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: my aunts, too, because I didn't understand age. Everyone was
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: just older than me. But the older. Right. Yeah. The
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: older women in my life were my favorite people. I
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: loved sitting at the kitchen table with my grandma peg,
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: smoking cigarettes, playing cards and listening to Her and my
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: great aunt's bitch. That was my favorite activity to the
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: point where I don't understand when my current cousins who
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: are kind of teens don't get it. I'm like, what
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: do you mean you don't want to just sit here
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: and listen to all the hot goss? This is all
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: I wanted to do. And they kept telling me to
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: go away.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Same, same. And with, with my family, my, my,
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: both sets of my grandparents, they, they were dominoes players
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: and they played, I don't know if. it's played everywhere,
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: but there was a domino game called 42 that they played.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: And so for me, just even the sound of dominoes
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: on a table reminds me of that's a, for me,
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: that was like, oh, that's the grownup sound, you know,
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: that's the grownups. And, and then when I finally got
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: to the table to play, it was, you know, it was,
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: it was so spectacular, but, and that's the other thing
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: I think we need to be sure to mention is,
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: you know, gaming and tabletop games as a kid and
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: just gaming in general computers, tabletop, you name it. Like
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: I just, I love that. And that was such a
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: Haven for me. And we also share that because we
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: play D and D together and it's, we have now
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: been going, I think almost for five years, if not
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: five years. I.
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: At some point I was like, Did we start in 2020?
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: It might be six years. Maybe. Maybe. I don't know.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: We've been going so long that I have a boyfriend
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: in game that I'm not very nice to. But, you know,
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: my dead aunt said I was going to marry him.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: And I'm pretty sure he wants to. And when it
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: finally wraps, I'm getting my owlbear tattooed on my entire
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: thigh because I'll never be without her.
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: I'm so ready. I just picture you with like Eleanor
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: on one thigh and then Penelope on the other. So
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: they can always fight with each other of who's the
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: most loved. Yes.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And, you know, and then like my poison bottle
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: on one arm and a dagger on the other. So
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: everyone finally understands that I am not one to be
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: fucked with. But I, I just remember as a kid
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: realizing that those older women in my life were the
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: strongest women in the world. And they had it all
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: figured out in my little bird brain. And they were
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: always the people that who were leading our family, whether
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: it was quietly or loudly or meanly. And picking that
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: up and as an adult, like going back into my
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: matriarch line and trying to honor it through the stories
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: that I'm telling has been one of the most cathartic
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: things for me. Because when my sister first told me
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: that she was pregnant with my first nephew, I told
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: a friend right away, I go, I'm going to have
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: to take up smoking. And he goes, why? And I
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: was like, well, because all of the hot ants smoke.
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: I have to be one of the hot ants. And
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: they all smoke while they play cards at the kitchen
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: table and solve the world's problems. Do you not understand?
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just a rite of passage.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: It's just a rite of passage. I'm going to have
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: to take up smoking. And he laughed and he went,
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: now that I'm thinking about it, all of the hot
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: ants do smoke. You're right. And I go, I know I, I,
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: I'm going to have to, I'm going to have to
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: pick up my grandma's pack brand of cigarettes. They were
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: always in a cute little black and pink box. And,
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: Maybe I should buy a pack just to like play
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: with them.
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: Just to have it. And then you, you would have
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: to get one of those. I don't know if you
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: remember these, but the, the car, you can have them
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: in your car or you can have them in your house.
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: And they were beanbag ashtrays.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: Oh no.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: They were so crazy. So they basically were like picture
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: a beanbag with a metal thing. top that's like an
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: ashtray top. And then you could just plop that bad
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: boy like in your car. So, you know, put it
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: on your dash and it would kind of, you know,
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: roll around on your dash or you could set it
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: on the seat. Because we took many a ride with
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: my grandmother with, you know, everybody smoking in the car,
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: all of the adults with all the windows rolled up,
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: you know, while we're back and laying in the, you know,
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: the back window or something as we're driving down the
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: highway at 85 miles an hour.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: Well, and.
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: What I learned as I started to age was that
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: like my grandmother, my great aunt, my aunt and my mother,
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: they fought and clawed for every moment of joy that
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: I got to watch them cut loose and dance or
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: watch a soap opera or bitch to one another on
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: the phone. Like it was always well earned. And I
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: don't know if I ever told you the story, but
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: one time I had had a death in the family
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: and my mother and my sister went to my grandmother's
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: grave without me, like on the way to the funeral.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: And I was pissed. I was pissed. Everyone had bothered
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: me about this funeral. And it was still when I
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: lived in Dayton. So I would have been coming to
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: the funeral by myself. My mom told me that no
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: one wanted to deal with me. So to just come
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: in the day of the funeral. And I was like, no.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: I have enough people who share DNA with me in
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: that town. I'm going to get there a day early.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: People will want to deal with me. And of course,
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: an aunt did take me in. And I just remember
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: everyone pissing me off because they were like, well, when
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: should I arrive? Maybe I have a cough. I might
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: be too sick to come. And I was like, fucking
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: figure it out. Like, eldest daughters eventually get to cry, too,
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: that someone that they loved has died.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. And I think we're both, we are both
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: eldest daughters. And that's a whole other show.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: Well, and you know what? I didn't find out until
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: a friend and I had left Gen Con. When I
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: said something about like, what kind of makes me sad
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: about this friend is she's never going to figure out
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: how to do things on her own. She's always going
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: to wait for me to start it.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: It.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: And she went, God, as an eldest daughter, that was
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: just never a luxury for me. And I went, of course,
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: we're trauma bonded in that way. And we did not
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: even know, like, of course, the eldest daughter in me
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: saw the eldest daughter in you and said, we should
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: destroy the world together.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: It is crazy because I think of most of my friends,
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: especially like almost every single one of my female friends
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: now that you're saying that, I think we are all
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: eldest daughters. We are a tribe.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: So I left that funeral still very pissed off. And
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: I had basically the location of the giant cemetery that
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: my grandparents are buried in. and a fuzzy memory of
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: our family plot and the Jesus mural that's kind of
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: near it. So I'm like, I guess I'm going to
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: walk the entire fucking cemetery until I find my grandma.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: And eventually I find the weird, cause I, my sister
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: finally told me it's the last supper. It's not the
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: creepy Jesus where his eyes follow you. And I was like,
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: of course, duh. She's like, they're right in front of
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: the last supper. So I find them. I kind of
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: say hello to my grandfather who I've never met. And honestly,
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: this is the first time that as a person with
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: a fully functioning brain, I even have gone to a
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: grave site, but I knelt down and I tattled like
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: fuck to my grandma peg. I was like, grandma, everyone
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: was acting up today and no one understands how to
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: act right anymore. And they haven't since you died and
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: it's hard. But then I ended up just having this
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: really cathartic cry because I also started to explain to
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: her while she died when I was 16. I never
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: got to have this cathartic moment with her where I
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: was an adult looking at another adult woman, realizing that
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: we have to claw and fight for every moment of
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: joy that we have. And how tired that makes us.
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: So I just start crying and explaining to her that
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: I understand. I understand why you had to be cold.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: I understand why you had to be mean sometimes. Why
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: you had to be off-putting. Why you had to do
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: what you needed to do to survive. While also making
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: sure that we had any semblance of being taken care
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: of and acting right. And I was just sobbing. And
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: you know. She still comes to visit every once in
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: a while. So maybe she was happy that I at
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: least recognized it. But it's such a privilege to know
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: the older women in your life, especially as a grown up,
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: that I really do think about, like, I didn't get
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: to appreciate my grandma in her crone era the way
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: that I would have today as a six, like, as
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: a 37 year old, we would have had a way
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: more different relationship. And I've carried out kind of that
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: different relationship with my great aunts and my aunts than
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: I would have ever considered having with them at 16.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, it's just, I mean, I think with with
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: that too it does really hit home how uh expansive
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: when we go back to that you know if you're
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: looking at like maiden mother crone those those eras of
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: of a person's life but they're very expansive and and
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: they can they can overlap and kind of you know
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: interweave with each other but um I think I was
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: so lucky to have both of my grandmothers. One of
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: my grandmothers died when I was in my early to mid-20s,
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: and she was a heavy, heavy smoker. Otherwise, I think
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: she would have lived for a long time and then died.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: My paternal grandmother, who I actually called mom because she
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: was like my mom. She was the only mom that
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: I actually felt like was a mom. She died at
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: she was 96 and I was in my mid 30s
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: when when she died. But yeah, it was it. It
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: was a very. It can be very. hard and almost
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: like jarring to sort of start to see probably even
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: your parents. I didn't have that experience with them, but
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: definitely with my grandparents to see them, like you say,
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: like an adult person dealing with an adult person instead of,
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: you know, being the child or being the teenage kid
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: or being a college kid or, you And, uh, I
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: feel like the same sort of thing happened. Like when
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: my grandmothers, when they died, um, you know, any sort
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: of family gatherings or, or, you know, family, any semblance
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: of that really just kind of imploded and, And they,
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: they were the ones that really kind of held to that,
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: you know, like, well, things may be shitty, but we're,
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: you know, we're going to get together at Christmas and
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: we're going to still do, you know, this and that.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: And they, they did, they, they made sure that happened,
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: but it's, oh man, grandmas are, they're the best.
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: They're the best.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: They are the best.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: Peg actually, when I came up with this concept of writing,
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: a buddy comedy about a woman who goes through the
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: worst breakup, most unexpected breakup of her life. And her
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: grandmother comes back from the grave to haunt her and
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: train her into how to like lure in men again.
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: I think that's such a great idea. I love it.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: And of course it it's because I kept talking in
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: writing classes about how my grandma haunts me. And all
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: of the little signs that she'll leave me. So I
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: so someone was like, you got to do something with that.
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: And then I was like, oh, it should be a
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: buddy comedy about like a woman in the grandmother who
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: haunts her. And then the very next day, I was
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: like cleaning around my bedroom and a letter that I
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: wrote my grandma from camp that I took out of
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: her house after she had passed or my mom took
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: out for me. That I usually keep in a locked,
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: like in a closed container that has like a latch
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: to it with all the other family photos that my
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: mom gave me. And now I'm terrified of losing. It
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: was it was just laying next to my bedside table
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: where I was cleaning up and I went, all right, Peg,
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: I'll fucking write an outline, you know? Yeah. I'll do it.
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: I'll do the thing.
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: When the ancestors speak to us, we better listen. We
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: better listen.
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: And it's just, it's one of those things where I
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: find I have, I think I was about 30 when
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: I started yearning for my crone years. And I think
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: 30 was when Number one, it's when I think my
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: family gave up on me ever being wed. They were like, yeah,
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: it's never going to be a summer bride. I think
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: it's when I was able to kind of get my
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: wedding dowry money that had been saved for my big,
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: big special day. And I bought a house with it,
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: a condo with it. And I think at that point,
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: I was like, if society is going to give up
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: on me, I'm going to give up harder. And I
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: cannot wait to be a crone. I cannot wait to
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: be wrapped up in shawls, looking into the sea air,
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: not giving a fuck about anything. I yearn to the point.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: And I think that was the year I stopped dressing
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: up sexy for Halloween. I was like, no, I will
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: be grotesque because I can't wait.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: And, you know, I can't tell you enough. Like, it's
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: going to be it's going to be so much fun.
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: And when I went, I went from, you know. every decade,
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: you know, my, I, I struggled some in my thirties
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: to figure out what the fuck I was doing. My forties,
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: I felt like I was getting smarter and getting more
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: of an idea of my own value. My fifties and
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: I mean, just an amazing decade because it's, I think
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: in my fifties was where I finally hit it, where
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: I was like, I know who I am. Uh, I
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: know what I'm about. And I felt really satisfied with myself.
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: And it's not to say that you don't have to
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: constantly keep processing stuff. And, you know, like my mother,
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: she died a couple of years ago. And it was, yeah,
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: and I thought that I had dealt with all of that.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: And I spent a good probably six months just kind
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: of going through that. Again, and figuring out like, hey,
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: it wasn't me. It was her. You know, I was
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: and I'm going to give a plug to a book
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: that I can't even remember who wrote it. But I
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: will say this. Even at this stage, it really gave
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: me some some language for understanding what I had gone
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: through as a kid. And I'm probably going to misname
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: the book, but it's called Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: I think that's the name of it. I'll figure it
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: out later and confirm that.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: You'll think this is crazy, but a therapist herself has
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: also recommended that I read that book.
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: Listen, Natalie, I can't out of, okay, there's two books
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: that I recommend that are almost like like one is like,
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: if I'm not a religious person, but if I had
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: a Bible, it would be Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer.
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: It's an amazing book and a life-changing book. And it really,
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: my favorite, one of my favorite quotes from that book
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: is that the land knows you even when you're lost.
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: And that just, just makes me cry every time I
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: think of it. But And this book really gave me
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: a language for understanding like my childhood, how, you know,
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: kind of what was happening because I was always a
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: kid who felt like I couldn't be, I couldn't complain.
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: I couldn't even acknowledge anything that if anybody hurt me
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: or did anything to me, I couldn't even complain. I
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: couldn't even articulate that because that would be so ungrateful
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: and it would be tempting fate to really show me
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: what misery was. You know, that's that's sort of the
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: downside of coming from superstitious grandparents, you know. But, and
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: I don't think that they really knew what was going on.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: I think they probably had a sense of it, but
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: didn't know for sure, you know, who does. And kids
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: always internalize everything. And they don't, a lot of the
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: reality is a lot of kids never tell what their
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: childhoods were like and what they went through until they
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: get older. So as I, when I hit my 50s,
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: That was great. And in my 60s, I feel even better.
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: I feel like I mean, I just have gotten to
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: a point where I dress how I want. I do
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: what I want. I still you know, I have to. Yeah,
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: I can't go around, you know, setting people on fire
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: only in my mind. But, you know, but I I mean,
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: I still have some rules I have to follow. But
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: but I really do what I want. I really am
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: the person that I want to be. I dress how
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: I want for court. I have blue hair. I am like,
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: I have full tattoo sleeves. I don't cover up my
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: tattoos if I go to court and it's 100 degrees outside.
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: I will wear short sleeves to court, just like every
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: other person that wants to do that. Nobody says shit
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: to me anymore because they know I have no fucks
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: to give them anymore and I'm just going to do
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: what I want to do. So it's kind of nice
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: getting to be the weird old lady that everybody's scared
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: to say something to. Because I'm sure people see me.
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: My fashion vibe is, like I said, going back to
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: the five-year-old. I always wanted to be a hobo and
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: a ballerina. And so my fashion style pretty much is
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: hobo and ballerina combined.
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: And but I'm sure there's people all the time that
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: are like, what the what the fuck is she wearing?
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: You know, but nobody would dare ever say anything to
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: me where when I was younger, they of course, they
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: would have felt absolutely emboldened and, you know, entitled to
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: say something to me.
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: Well, when I was a kid, and honestly, I think
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: I've carried it in every iteration of my style. I
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: wanted to be nothing more than as gorgeous and beautiful
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: as Esmeralda from The Hunchback of Notre Dame, the scariest
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: but sexiest Disney movie. And I think it's because in
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: my child brain, I misunderstood where Croatia is in the world.
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: And I thought that Esmeralda and I were from the
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: same cut of the cloth. And I would just wear
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: jangly beads and lots of bracelets and big chunky earrings
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: for the rest of my life. And I do. And
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: I still do.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: That's amazing.
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: I love that. And I think, especially in the year
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: of the Epstein files being released, as women, we've collectively
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: started thinking about our beauty standards and how rooted they
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: were in the male gaze and not what actually brings
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: us joy. Men don't find me sexy if I'm wearing
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: eight inches of bangles on my arms or 18 different
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: shades of eyeshadows on my eyes because I wanted to
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: make sure to get every hue of the bird on
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: my shirt represented up there. They don't pick up on
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: that shit. I do that for me and other women.
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: And at no point has any man gone, and there
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: she is, the epitome of beauty.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: Because they're all pedophiles. Yeah.
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, it is funny. There are some times that, like,
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: I will wear stuff that I know intentionally, like, bothers
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: some of these, you know, like, more.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: Like, I live in, like, the heart of fucking MAGA Central,
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: you know?
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: And so.
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: Like I wore, I have like some little tabi shoes,
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: like from Japan, a little word. I love them because
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: they remind me of like, I feel like I'm, I
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: have little deer feet when I wear them. I'm like,
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: Oh my, my little cloven hooves. Um, but there are
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: a couple of, of attorneys that will, I'll see them
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: in court and they I could just tell it just
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: makes them mad every time they see my shoes. And
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: I'm just like, you know, because one of them looked
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: and he was like, what the hell kind of what
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: is that on your feet? And I was like, I'm
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: turning into a deer, motherfucker. Get ready.
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: I'm coming in full costume next week.
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: Next time I'm going to be wearing antlers. So just
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: fucking deal with it. But it is interesting how, you know,
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: once you kind of exempt yourself from that, but sometimes
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: no matter what you do, you still have to put
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: up with that shit. You know, you still have, like
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: I say, you know, I thought like, When I got
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: to be this age, I was like, I was like, oh, finally,
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: the creeps are going to leave me alone. You know, finally. Oh, no,
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: the creeps are just older creeps. That's all. Which that's
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: kind of the downside is that as you get older,
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: your creeps tend to get older, too. Um, but also
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: they're easier to escape because most of them are in
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: really bad shape and they can't, you know, they, they,
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: they would probably lose in a fight or they can't
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: run fast enough to catch you.
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: Well, and then on the topic of beauty standards, I
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: find it so interesting that like in our media and literature,
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: when I was growing up as a kid, all of
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: the old crone witches in the Disney movies were obsessed
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: with just like eating the one thing that was going
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: to make them beautiful again. And I turned 30 and
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: I was like, all I want is to be old
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: and in the woods where no one will speak to me.
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: And I have a goat and I talk to the
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: goat and that's it. And I just don't believe that
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: the wicked queen from Snow White would go through all
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: of this effort to just be a little bit hotter.
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: She's already hot.
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's just, but you know,
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: then we say that and then we, I mean, I'm
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: not going to name names cause I don't want to
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: hurt any, you know, superstars feelings, but there's a lot
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: of women that are incredibly beautiful and, um, But it
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: makes me so sad to see them just disfiguring themselves
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: in all sorts of ways because they do want to
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: be just a little bit hotter.
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: Just a little bit hotter.
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: And it's just, oh, my gosh. It is kind of,
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: you know, it is heartbreaking. And that's why I do
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: remind people, like, you know, I don't care for people
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: to tell me, like, oh, you look so good today.
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: You look so young. I would have never thought because
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: that it just it's tied to that same bullshit. Like,
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: I just I look I just look how I look.
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: And I'm I mean, do I do I try to.
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: feel my best and look, I, I like to look
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: at myself and be like, Hey lady, you got it
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: going on. You know, like I dress for, for myself.
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: I'm lucky enough to have a partner. Like literally I
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: could shave my head and, you know, wear nothing but
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: like tube socks on my tits. And he'd be like, Oh,
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: you're the greatest. I love you.
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: You know?
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: Um, But I just, I just think that it is
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: really freeing to start just kind of dressing for yourself and,
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: and for your kid self. Like I was, I just
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: was such, I just feel like so much of the
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: joy that I have now is from just doing stuff
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: for that little kid that, that just, I just want
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: to go back and just kind of love on her
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: because I was a, I was such a tough, sweet
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: little kid and I took care of myself. I took
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: care of my brother. I just, you know, I, I
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: really look back now and I, everything I do now
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: as a, as an older woman, in a way it
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: really is tied into honoring that little child self or
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: even my, you know, even, even like my maiden self
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: or my mother self.
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: Well, and you know, when I was of the ripe
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: old age of 12, my mother thought it would be
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: very appropriate to get me into the Anne Rice collection
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: of books. She was like, now that you're 12, I
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: think you should learn about weird demon sex. And here
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: are the Mayfair Witch Chronicles. And, you know, I like
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: the witch ones better, but maybe you'll like the vampire better.
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: So I got you both. And I don't know if
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: you know this, but AMC has made an interview with
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: The Vampire Show.
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: Oh, yes. I am a big romanticist. Anything weird. Oh,
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: there you go. With creatures.
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: He's the background of my phone. Lestat is the background
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: of my phone. Because he reminds me every day that
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: it's fine to be a brat. And if you're the
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: biggest brat in the room, that just means that you
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: have to love yourself that much harder. But I couldn't
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: watch the first two seasons of Interview with the Vampire
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: for the longest time because I couldn't get through the
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: first episodes of the season without Claudia. Yeah. Because Louis
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: is so insufferable. He's so morose. And he's like, oh,
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: I can't believe that I'm a vampire. Oh, I can't
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: believe that I just have to kiss this hot blonde
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: man all the time. What about my humanity? And in
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: my head, I was like, I'd be such a good
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: fucking vampire because then I don't have to care about
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: patriarchy or capitalism or any of it. I'm a fucking vampire.
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: And what's he whining about? He's one. But it took
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: exactly two seconds of me seeing that promo concert that
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: Sam Reed did as the vampire Lestat. It was exactly
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: one body roll. And I went, oh, we're going full
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: glam rock. I'll watch all the episodes today. Don't even worry.
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: And then I had to explain to people why the
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: vampire Lestat is the way that he is. And I
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: was like, well, you know, he doesn't believe in allergies
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: because when you had allergies as a kid, when he
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: was a kid, you died. Yes.
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: There you go. And, you know, the whole glam rock thing,
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: it's just like the longer the longer we talk, the
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: more I'm like, oh, this is why we're friends. Yes.
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: This is why.
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: It's because I should have known that I was a
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: gay woman, because when you asked me what makes you
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: all jittery about boys, I was like, well, I really
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: like that. In the labyrinth, David Bowie is wearing glitter
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: on his cheeks. And those fishnets on Tim Curry in
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: Rocky Horror Picture just really get me going. But not
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: as hard as when he's the devil in Legend. And
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: someone should have gone, that's queer, baby.
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, you know, we all we all come to
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: understand who we are in that way in our own time.
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: So I'm glad you're I'm glad you've joined the circle.
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: But yeah, the very idea of Louis just being so
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: upset that he finally broke through all societal structure and
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: had to just live as a very powerful vampire who
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: occasionally has to eat people. And I was like, I'm
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: mad at you.
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: You win.
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, he's really... I also grew up reading
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: just wildly inappropriate books from a very young age. But
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: I remember reading.
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: That all the Anne Rice stuff. And I will say this, like,
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: to me, Louis is just the consummate and great.
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: I mean, just be grateful.
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: Well, he he really is almost like a teenage vampire,
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: because I always just think like, you know, teenagers are
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: just kind of the worst. They and, you know, no offense, teenagers. But, hey,
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: I mean, I sucked when I was a teenager. I
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: was just they're just awful and morose and disgusting. just
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: completely ungrateful for anything and the center of their own
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: universe is it's the way they need to be because
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: that's how they go out from the nest and you
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: know go do their thing but that's that's what i
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: always think of louis is he was definitely for me
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: just the most repugnant of all of the characters and
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: i'm so glad.
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: That we can agree on that i'm like hello he's
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: awful And then the tragedy of Claudia is just like me.
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: She spent all of her days also just begging to
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: be older. Like I yearn to get to live through
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: every phase. And it is, especially in this country. I don't,
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: I think we've ripped from our society the idea that
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: it is such a privilege to age. Like it is.
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: It is a privilege to get to age.
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: As you do it, you really, you really start to
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: understand that because I, you know, now I've lived long
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: enough to where I have lost friends. I have, you know,
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: my brother, he's, he passed away a year ago, June,
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: my only sibling. That was the first. really my only
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: family that I have left. Um, I've lost really good
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: friends and I really, you know, it's, it, it, I
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: think at the same time that we're, you know, like
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: we don't get to age, um, But these kids, children now,
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: they don't even get to be kids. I know. So
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: it's all fucked up on both ends. You know, it's
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: like old people and kids, like little kids and old people,
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: they're the ones really getting fucked over somehow by whatever
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: weird warped thing that we have going on now. Because
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: now it's all about sexualizing every fucking person from like, Forever, almost.
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: And then, you know, and then if you're not if
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: you're not sexually attractive, then as you know, as a
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: man or a woman, then forget it. But, you know,
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: of course, we know men men can be sexually attractive and,
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: you know, however long they want to be. I just found,
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: I was reading something the other day where I was
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: like reading about Mick Jagger.
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: He's what?
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: Fucking 95 now or something. But he, you know, he's
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: got like a nine-year-old kid. He's basically like making his
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: own great grandchildren at this point.
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: I know. And we had that whole year where like
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: Al Pacino.
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: Another guy.
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: Just having children in their late eighties. And I'm like,
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: I mean, I guess I hope you still have money
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: because that's what you're going to end up being the
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: lasting effect that you have on your kids.
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: It's just, yeah, well, it's just super strange to me.
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: I do not, I mean, because I'm like, I always
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: had kind of a rule of like, I never wanted
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: to like partner up with anybody that like I could
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: have given birth to or that could have been my parent.
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: I'm like, there's just, I have a, you know, I
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: have my standards.
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: Well, when the like sensationalized news stories come up, on
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: my feed where it's like, and Al Pacino's having a
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: baby with his 23 year old girlfriend and he is 82.
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: It does make me think of, you know, how as
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: a society, we've really tried really hard to demonize the
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: aging woman because they know that we're so fucking smart
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: that like no one's going to put up with Al
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: Pacino's bullshit. as they age so he's gotta entrap a
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: 23 year old who doesn't know better well.
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: And hey if you if you're an old guy and
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: you still want to like be fucking when you're 88
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: years old that's totally cool but like these guys know
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: about condoms what's the matter like why why not use
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: one it's okay you know.
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah that whole that whole like trope or um cliche,
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: where it's like, oh, he traded me in for a
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: younger model as soon as I hit 42. And it's like, well, yeah,
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: when you marry someone at the age of 22, I
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: was so complacent at 22. And I was so male centered.
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: And I didn't know any different than to want to
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: hold a man's attention in the palm of my hand
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: and believe that that was going to get me somewhere.
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: And now at 37, I'm a menace and they don't
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: like me very much because I'll talk back to them
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: and I'll push back. And they're not used to being
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: pushed back on. All of their moms told them that
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: they were very special.
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: Well, I have to give a shout out to my
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: forever crush, forever, ever, ever, Keanu Reeves, because he's not
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: buying into that bullshit He has a lovely partner who
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: is age appropriate. She's an artist and an incredible woman
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: in her own right. There are men out there that
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: get it and that are evolved enough to where they
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: don't need to have these, like, you know, I think especially,
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: you know, these just, when you see these really super
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: old guys with these really super young women, it's just,
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: you know, again, it's like, Hey man, like, that's why
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: we're living in a time where it's like, nope. Yeah.
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: Everybody really seems to be bothered by it. Like, When
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: it's happening like, oh, here's a here's a coach doing
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: this or here's a teacher or whatever. But, hey, you know,
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: politicians and old rich guys, they're just doing the same
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: shit they've always done. And I guess we've all decided
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: it's OK, you know, because we're not. We're not dragging
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: them out in the middle of the street and making
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: them accountable for what they're doing. We can't even make,
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: make people go fucking vote these assholes out. I remember
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: when I, I remember when like a chick sitting on
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: a dude's lap that he wasn't married to her used
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: to be like, I can't even remember that old politician,
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: but he was running for some office and he got
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: photographed with a girl sitting on his lap at a party.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: And that was like a huge thing. And he had
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: to pull out of the race, right? That was back like,
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: I think even in the 80s. Now it's like, you know,
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: who cares?
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: Who cares? And people find that liberating. Finally, we don't
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: care about predatory behavior. It's a whole like, well, we
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: can't have canceled culture because that's so unforgiving or whatever. Well,
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: I don't feel like, you know, forgiving pedophiles. Like, that
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: can just sit on my soul that I'll remain pissed
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: at them. I'll remain pissed that Trump made it into
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: the presidency not once but twice. I'll remain pissed.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: It says a lot about a lot of people.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: It does. And it just and hey, I'm not saying
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: that it's easy. It's not easy being a male, a
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: decentered male woman, a woman who has decentered men in
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: a world that still truly wants to cling to them
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: being the central. and the power of it all. And
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: you think that like me being enlightened to the fact
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: that like, women are truly the creators of everything that
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: we've got going on. And yet, due to colonization, we
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: ripped women from the center of our homes, our villages,
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: our religions, and our politics. That it would be like, well, Natalie,
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: at least, you know, every day that you're right. No,
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: it doesn't fucking matter that I'm right. Everyone else is
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: so fucking ignorant.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: Well, and you know, I keep, I, I always try
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: to tell myself like, it's very easy to, to, to
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: kind of despair. But again, circling back around to like
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: the whole punk thing, like my, my mantra and my
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: perspective on my own life is like, no, no, buddy,
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: no motherfucker gets to steal my joy.
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: My daily fucking joy. Nobody gets to take that away
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: from me. And I, and I always will be more,
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: I'll always lean more toward, Hey, I think, I mean, I,
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: most of the time I'm like, ah, people suck. But I, but,
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: but I do think that like, there's these little shiny
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: bright lights where I think Maybe maybe we're going to
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: be OK. You know, maybe I think I think a
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: lot of the younger generations, I think that once these
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: old fucking boomers die off, I think it's going to
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: be a better world. I see even like, you know,
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: like we have a one like in New York, we've
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: got a wonderful mayor who just exudes like. positivity and happiness. And,
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: you know, he's just like, I, mom, Donnie is just
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: one of these kind of bright lights that I'm like, oh,
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: you know, it's just, so there's these little kind of
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: pockets of, of hopefulness. And I, and, and anytime I
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: get out of the U S it is kind of
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: nice to just be reminded, like this, you know, whirlpool
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: of shit that we're in. for the last, you know,
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: few decades, it feels like sometimes it's, it's not, it's
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: not everything everywhere all the time. Like there's people that
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: live very, you know, chill lives, just doing their thing.
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: And they, they kind of have it right. Like they
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: just don't, they don't fuck with politics. They don't really
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: care because they, what, you know, what's important to them
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: is just like their daily living, like living their lives.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: I wish I could get to that point.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah. What a lovely concept. I, yeah. Well, and I
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: think also what I've started to learn and what I've
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: started to try to practice, especially when I get together
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: with people like you and people in my creative community
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: and the lovely people of Gen Con is I always
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: make sure to pour some of that energy and love
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: and light back to make sure that everything is staying reciprocal.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: Because as you were talking about that beautiful mirror in
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: NYC doing the Lord's work, I went, oh, I have
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: to go back to like making sure that once a
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: day I send nice healing energy through the ethos to
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: AOC and Jasmine Crockett because their days are so hard. Yeah.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, it's, it's just, yeah, it is, it is really,
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: there's so many amazing people that are struggling every day.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: And a lot of people that will never know their
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: names will never know what they do. Just regular, like
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: should have got neighbors. I see coming and going that
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: probably are just have amazing heroic stories that, that I
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: could imagine. tell and discover if you know if they
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: had if they had time in their day to like
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: talk to me that they're usually so tired you know
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: we're all tired but um yeah I think I mean
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: I'm I'm definitely like as I've gotten older I'm I'm
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: more patient I still am pissed about a lot of
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: stuff but like hey But I don't rage about stuff.
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: I'm just like, yeah, you know, I mean, I don't
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: shy away from expressing how I feel about things. I
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: don't like swallow down my anger over things. But then
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: I also, I think I'm more discerning in what I'm
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: going to expend my energy on being angry about anymore.
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: Like I wake up, you know, I used to wake
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: up and I'd be like, ah, fucking Trump. I hate
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: his guts. You know, like I would just be like that.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: I'd wake up and remember like, oh, he's, you know,
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: he's still here. But now I'm just like, oh, you know,
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: I'll have my coffee like morning, honey. Hey, you know,
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: Trump's going to die one day. He's just going to,
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: he's just, yeah, one day I'm going to wake up
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 2: kind of like I did when another guy that I
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: didn't like very much, I heard the news, he was dead.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: And I was like, wow, what a great day.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: You know, Mitch McConnell, he's practically there.
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: I am fascinated with the fact that we have this
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 2: guy who's basically been disappeared and warehoused somewhere.
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: And Bernie'd.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 2: And everybody is just like acting like it's no biggie.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: And then they show these pictures of him where I'm like,
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: that guy couldn't even shuffle 10 feet down a hallway
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: without falling over or stroking out if somebody asked him
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: a question. But it's so ridiculous. I just have to
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: laugh at it.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you're a drag race fan.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: Oh, yes, I am.
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: Trixie Mattel you know she DJs.
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: Now I saw yeah where the.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: Fuck is bitch McConnell and then people are like dead
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: dead he's motherfucking dead and she's like where the fuck
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: is bitch McConnell the way that she told Katia she
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: goes you know I was just feeling the song and
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: then I can't keep my goddamn mouth shut so I
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: just turned down the music I went where the fuck
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: is bitch McConnell Well, you know, hey.
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: Props to Trixie for asking the question that all of
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: us should fucking be asking for real.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: You know, I love them so much. There are so
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: many people in this world that I know if I
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: just got the chance to intermingle our energies, the world
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: would either heal or implode. And when it comes to
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: Trixie and Katia and Sam Regal from Critical Role, I'm like,
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: our energies are too explosive. We'd end up in prison.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: We'd skip jail, go straight to prison.
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah. No, there are people that you just can't put
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: them together in the same space because something in the
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: universe would just crack open for sure.
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: The riff off that Sam Riegel and I will have
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: one day and I will say the ugly things that
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: will never come out of my mouth again. But I'll
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: do it for the bit because I'm with Sam. Riegel
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: and I'll just throw away all of my scruples well
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: I think we're ready for our closing out ceremony because
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: again I'll talk to you until dawn if you like.
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah for sure I could do that too but yes
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: let's put this baby to bed.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: When it comes to embracing the crone and being in
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: a world where aging is so demonized, but you and
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: I really want to hold true to how sacred it
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: is to come into one's own and to hold all
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 1: the knowledge in the world that you've got to learn
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: throughout your years. What do you think is the most
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: important thing people should know about aging, about getting to age?
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: I think that the most important thing to know about
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: aging is that it will teach you so much about
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: what is.
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: Truly valuable.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: In your own existence. And it will teach you how
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: to appreciate not just yourself, but, but everyone. And, and that,
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: that includes even, you know, even the, the people that I,
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: that I don't enjoy their presence here, but Um, I do,
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 2: I do feel very much like aging when you, when
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: you get to a certain point, it is so much
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: about learning how connected you are to, to everything. Yeah.
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: And then what would you like to manifest for all
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: of us sitting in the collective energy?
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: Huh? That's always a tough one, but, um, So I
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: think I'm going to keep it kind of crone related.
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 2: So I'm just going to, I would hope for everyone
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: and manifest for everyone that as wherever you are, as
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 2: you move into your next day and the next days
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 2: and all those days after that, that you treat yourself
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 2: With all the loving kindness that the best and most
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: precious version of you always deserved.
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's so beautiful. And it's also something that I
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: try really hard to work towards. It's hard.
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 2: It is hard, but I really think that that is...
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 2: I think if we really did focus on that more
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 2: and if we kind of saw that need for that
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 2: in other people, I think we would probably all be nicer.
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: Wouldn't it be something if we all focused on our
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: own happiness and then all of a sudden everyone was
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: happy because we started to give a fuck about one another? Yeah.
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: I mean, shit.
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 2: Hey, just just drummer believed in that. So, yeah. Well,
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: you know, why not?
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 1: Dimension 20, not this last campaign, but the campaign beforehand.
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: It's called the Badlands. They just did an apocalypse season
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: where it was like Mad Max Fury Road, except for
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 1: instead of people hoarding water, they actually came up with
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: factions on how to help people. And like this place
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 1: was really good at this place. And like the players
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 1: were the traveling band of people that went from place
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 1: to place to make sure that everything was running smoothly.
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 1: And Brennan went, you know, it's really easy to do
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 1: an apocalypse season when where everything is shitty and we're
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 1: all at war with one another. And I thought, wouldn't
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: it be just as easy to pretend that we we
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 1: get it right during the apocalypse and we actually try
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: hard to hold on to our humanity and love for
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 1: one another. And I was like, God damn it, Brennan.
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 1: My hero. My everyday hero.
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 2: I love them all. And Alex Ward, I have to say.
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 2: We could have just conversation after conversation.
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: I need you to know that I sat in a
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 1: show with Alex Ward and I didn't get up to
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: say hi. And I should have. He was sitting with
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 1: people I know.
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, there will be there. That was evidently
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 2: that wasn't the time. And there will be another one.
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 1: I did greet Robbie Damon in the hallway like he
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: was an old friend as we were passing one another.
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 1: I was like, oh, hey. And he was like, hey.
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: And I was like, Natalie, you don't know him. You
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 1: just think he has really good hair. You do now.
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 2: You know him now.
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 1: You know him now.
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 2: This was so fun. Thank you so much.
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: Do you have anything that you would like to plug
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 1: and tell the internet?
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 2: Well, I don't really have anything right now. I do
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 2: have a little website and I don't know what will
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 2: be going on there by the time this airs. It's
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 2: called practically a witch dot com. It's nothing earth shattering,
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 2: but it's if anybody ever cares to get in touch
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 2: with me, that's kind of the probably the only place
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 2: other than through you. But hey, great. I mean, that's
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 2: about it. Other than that, everybody needs to play D
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 2: & D. Everybody needs to watch like Dimension 20, Critical Role,
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 2: all the like the vampire stuff out there. Like I just,
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 2: I can't say enough about how much I love watching
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: other people.
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 1: You have to come to Gen Con with me one year.
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: Oh, I would love that. I would love that.
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 1: Before you're whisked away to your European life and it
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 1: becomes so much harder, you have to come to Gen
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: Con with me.
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 2: We will make a pact that this will happen.
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 2: We will do this.
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 1: Because I'm convinced that I'm this close from getting invited
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: to all of the secret parties. I am so close.
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 2: I think that that should be a goal.
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: Yes. For sure. All right. Well, tolerators, you know the
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 1: deal over here. It's to all the men I've tolerated
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 1: before on YouTube and Patreon. Patreon is where the blogs
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 1: and the social media that you might want to not
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 1: have on Instagram or TikTok or Facebook anymore. It's all
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 1: getting repurposed for free on Patreon. So we can still
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 1: be a community without anyone stealing our data or our likeness.
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 1: What a thought. Then we also have ad-free episodes and
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: bonus episodes for a small monthly fee on Patreon. But
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 1: there's free stuff, too. Men I've Tolerated Pod on Instagram,
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 1: NatalieK124 on Instagram and TikTok. And most importantly... Remember, tolerators,
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 1: you don't have to smile through anything you're tolerating, including
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: a lot of messaging that we should be thinner and
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: fitter and tighter and prettier and shaving our legs and
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 1: our arms and making ourselves look as young as possible
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 1: for as long as possible. If that's not actually what
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: you want to do, smiles are for joy.