Latest / AI for Founders with Ryan Estes / How to use Hollywood storytelling to build blockbuster brands with Greg Logan

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How to use Hollywood storytelling to build blockbuster brands with Greg Logan · AI for Founders with Ryan Estes

• 0:00
  Welcome back to AI for Founders. I am Ryan Estes.
• 0:03
  I am not AI, as witnessed by the terrible brightness balance on
• 0:08
  this video right now. I'll figure it out.
• 0:11
  I'm in a new studio. Today's guest is a master of
• 0:14
  emotion, attention, and brand transformation.
• 0:17
  Greg Logan, founder of Narrativity and author of the
• 0:20
  new book Creating a Blockbuster Brand, Hollywood Storytelling
• 0:24
  Secrets for Business. Greg's background spans global
• 0:28
  ad agencies, award-winning short films, and the world's top
• 0:32
  brands. Think Google, Adobe and Virgin.
• 0:35
  They come to him to make their messages unforgettable.
• 0:38
  In this conversation, we unpack how emotional storytelling
• 0:41
  drives decision making and why AI might be making all your
• 0:45
  marketing sound the same, and how brands can flip the script
• 0:48
  and become the mentor, not the hero, of their customer's story.
• 0:52
  It's insightful, it's tactical. And if you care about standing
• 0:55
  out in a noisy world, this episode is for you.
• 0:58
  But first, some business. This episode is brought to you
• 1:01
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• 1:04
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  Your audience is out there. Let's go get them Kick Caster by
• 1:39
  MO Burst. Greg, how you doing buddy?
• 1:59
  I'm great. I'm great, Ryan.
• 2:01
  Great. Yeah.
• 2:01
  Thanks so much for coming on the show.
• 2:05
  Of course, always a pleasure. Nothing better than talking
• 2:10
  about yourself. Well, to your point, I
• 2:13
  appreciate that you do like, you know, I do pretty extensive
• 2:16
  research on the folks I'm talking with for the show and
• 2:19
  there's so much good stuff out on the Internet for you.
• 2:22
  So thank you for talking what you do so prolifically.
• 2:25
  It makes my job a little bit easier.
• 2:28
  It's a pleasure. Yeah, it's a pleasure.
• 2:29
  So kind of a reoccurring theme on this show in, in terms of AI
• 2:36
  is that AI is going to be most successful if it helps humans be
• 2:41
  more human. And you kind of had this great
• 2:44
  quote that said people don't make decisions based on facts.
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  We buy with emotion 1st and then justify with logic.
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  And this is, of course, in commerce, which you're an
• 2:53
  absolute expert in, in advertising and commerce.
• 2:56
  Maybe you could unpack that a little bit.
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  What did you mean by that? So there's actually scientific
• 3:05
  proof. Neuroscientists have done all
• 3:09
  these studies on the effect that storytelling has on our brains.
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  And when we tell messages, and AI certainly tells messages
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  through very rational ways, when we lead with just facts, it
• 3:28
  lights up two of the four quadrants of the brain.
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  And so that can work. But stories or facts and
• 3:39
  messages told through storytelling lights up all four
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  quadrants of the brain, including we get dopamine hits
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  when we hear stories. We, it creates empathy between
• 3:55
  the, the listener and the, the teller.
• 4:02
  Their, their story becomes our story.
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  You know, when we hear a good story and then we go off and
• 4:09
  later that night we tell our partner this great story that
• 4:13
  you've heard that day for that partner.
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  That's your story. And then you tell that again,
• 4:19
  again, again, all of a sudden that is your story.
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  So Can you imagine in business if we can tell stories to our
• 4:27
  customers that they then tell on and on and on and it becomes
• 4:31
  their story? So there's all these and also
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  stories stick with people. So when messages are told
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  through a story, they're remembered 22 times more than if
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  you just tell facts. So stories are powerful to
• 4:52
  engage us, but we do make decisions with emotion.
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  If you think about cars, for instance, when you buy a car,
• 5:00
  it's an emotional position. You, you are the want to look
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  like you're rich. You want to look like you're
• 5:06
  cool. You wouldn't look like you're
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  fast. You whatever it is.
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  That's why you buy the car. And then when people say, why
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  did you buy a Mercedes, you go, well, they're really, they're
• 5:18
  safe. They're really well made.
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  I'm going to get good resale. So you can see we, we make the
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  decision from emotion that we always need the rational facts
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  to back it up and tell people, because you're not going to say,
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  I don't know, I just wanted to look like I was hot.
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  You know, you're just not going to say that.
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  Can I Can I share? That's really why you do.
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  Can I share a personal story? So this this car thing came up
• 5:48
  recently for me. I've had a pickup truck for the
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  last 1520 years. I mean, I always say that, you
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  know, I'm a Colorado guy, I'm from Denver.
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  If you look up color guy in the dictionary, you see a picture of
• 5:59
  me, my pickup truck, my golden retriever and a flannel shirt.
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  Like I'm just kind of Arc typically that's who I am.
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  Well, you know, probably a year or two ago I started looking at
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  my lifestyle. It's like, you know, I go
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  hunting, fishing about four or five times a year, you know, can
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  that really justify this gigantic F-150 I have parked in
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  the driveway And I started really feeling like it was, it
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  was just a ridiculous expense and kind of garish like I, I
• 6:26
  didn't need that. So I was like, ah, cool, I'll
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  trade it in and get an EV or something.
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  And it took me like 8 months to finally be able to rationalize
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  that because it wasn't that the, the pickup truck, rather it was
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  like I identified with the guy that has a pickup truck, you
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  know, So I really had to use that rational part not to
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  justify like, you know, a, a, a luxury, but to rather go the
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  other way to go more economical. I don't it was it was
• 6:55
  interesting. Yeah, well, you've really
• 6:58
  thought about it. Most people don't like, if you
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  think about the success of RV's, most people have never taken
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  them off the main road, but they they aspire to that.
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  I can do that. And there's a freedom in that
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  and, and how marketing plays up on that big, big time.
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  Yeah. So.
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  Quick introduction here and and why I wanted to talk to you
• 7:22
  about this. You have a wonderful company
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  called Narrativity and you just released a book.
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  Congratulations on that. Creating a blockbuster brand.
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  Hollywood storytelling secrets for business.
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  And it it's to your point, I think we all intuitively know
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  that like, the best stories sell the best.
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  You know, Nike's great at it, Apple's great at it.
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  All the, the, the, the category leaders are fantastic at telling
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  stories. Now, how do you see like
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  Hollywood in particular weaving into what we'll call Madison
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  Ave. or, or even SMBs, Like how, how can people start to begin to
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  use what we know and inherently about big business, but we we
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  understand inherently about Hollywood telling stories into
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  kind of our own businesses. Yeah.
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  So most people out there might have heard the phrase or term
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  brand storytelling. And for many, many years,
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  experts, marketing experts have said brands need to become
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  better storytellers because of what I just said, that we make
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  decisions on emotion and, and, and traditionally, you know, for
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  nearly 100 years, brands have just talked about themselves and
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  said this is our offer, this is our our product benefit, this is
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  our unique selling point. And they talked about
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  themselves, and there wasn't as much competition.
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  And people went, yes, I need that.
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  The world's changed a lot. And you can't just go out and
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  talk about yourself. You have to talk about why you
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  matter to people. And people do have that
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  emotional connections to stuff. So I spent many years hearing
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  about why Brad should become better storytellers.
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  And I realized everyone told me why, but no one said how.
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  And I thought, that's going to be my job.
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  I'm going to give people the how.
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  So I looked at the most financially successful
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  storytellers of all time, which are the movies.
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  And I know that movies are written to a formula.
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  So I've written some movies. They're really bad.
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  They were not made and they shouldn't have been made.
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  It's not my my strength, but I do understand the movies.
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  And I was living in LA and I pulled together all my
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  screenwriter friends and I and they helped me break down all
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  the tricks and formulas movies use to hook us in.
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  Not just during the film, but writing the film to try and get
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  people to the film and also buy merchandise after the film.
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  So all the great tricks that movies use, I broke down and
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  translated them for what I know brands need.
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  And there's really, really simple formulas, which I'll go
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  through some of them during this podcast.
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  But by breaking down the formulas and putting the
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  audience at the heart so they are the hero of every story you
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  tell, not you. I hate to say it, but you are
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  not the hero. Everyone has their own quest,
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  they all are getting on with their lives and they're the hero
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  of their story. But if you can be the mentor,
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  the wise guy that comes along 1/3 of the way through the film
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  to help the hero achieve their quest, then you're invaluable to
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  them. So that's what I've done.
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  That's what my book breaks down. I do this for the world's
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  biggest companies all over the globe.
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  But I've written a book creating a blockbuster brand to break
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  down each of those formulas. And I guide people through it so
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  they can do it themselves because it's it's all great to
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  go. Yeah, become a better
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  storyteller. But now.
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  And so these formulas give you a structure and a road map to make
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  sure you are engaging in a motive to your audience.
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  You know, just a couple of those logos to Adobe, Google, Virgin,
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  these are companies that have amazing stories.
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  And when I'm thinking about storytellers for people, people
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  tell stories. So when you're thinking about a
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  brand telling a story, are you recommending that the, the
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  person actually telling the, the story is, is the customer Like
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  they're the storyteller and the brand becomes the, the emotion
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  that it's eliciting? Is that it?
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  Not so much that if the brand is speaking, they're just putting
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  at the centre of everything, the customer.
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  So rather than saying aren't we great, this is our offering.
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  I work with my clients to say what's your audience's greatest
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  tension? Because that's what the movies
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  do. They start with attention.
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  You don't have a movie, you don't have a story.
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  If there's tension, there's no happy ending.
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  If there's no tension at the start, and for years marketing
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  experts have said we can't be negative.
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  We can't say anything negative in our advertising.
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  We have to only be positive. Well, that's a load of crap like
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  you, you need to start and hook people in with a thing that
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  really bugs them the most because you've got them.
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  And that's why movies work. We we're hooked in because
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  something terrible happens and and then you talk about how you
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  solve it and all of a sudden you're completely relevant to
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  your audience. And so in my formulas, I talk
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  about the audience, their greatest tensions, the things
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  they hate, the things they love, and then what role do you play
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  within their world That becomes the powerful part.
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  The brand becomes the release. So you establish the tension and
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  the brand becomes the release, you know?
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  Yeah, and and and it's you've heard again, again, again.
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  And I it, it frust, this phrase frustrates me and I've banned my
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  clients from saying it about customer centric.
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  And I'm like, well, I hope you're customer centric like you
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  know. What are you doing?
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  In business there for Yeah, exactly.
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  It's just like, I just think it's hilarious.
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  People got you know what we're really customer centric.
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  Well, thank goodness, but this way the formulas make sure
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  you're customer centric. We put they're the hero of the
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  story and you're telling your story with them as the hero.
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  That's why they that's why my clients have phenomenal success
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  because we've flipped the script from the thing I say is stop
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  telling the story you want to tell and start telling the story
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  your audience wants to hear. It makes a big, big difference.
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  This is an important fact right now because what we have is we
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  have AI sinking into all the products.
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  All the brands are now with AI, and it's the most ridiculous
• 14:41
  positioning. It reminds me of when like Omega
• 14:43
  Threes, we're kind of trending and it was like eggs now with
• 14:47
  omega-3 bread, now with omega-3, it's like, do I need omega-3 in
• 14:51
  my bread? Like what the it's like the
• 14:53
  sugar now with Omega threes, same things happening now we got
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  butter with AI. Everything is with AI and it
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  doesn't tell that story. You know, if you're, you know,
• 15:03
  you're a Fortune 500 marketing director, how should they
• 15:07
  approach like integrating AI? Obviously you want to like make
• 15:11
  sure everyone understands you're tip of the spear technology
• 15:13
  wise, but it seems like it's being done no bad.
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  So you know what brand storytelling is most essential
• 15:19
  in the age of AI. Yeah, wow, there's a lot there
• 15:25
  and I totally agree with those. AI is the new buzzword that
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  everyone wants to say. I mean, to this day I still have
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  clients go we need to say we're a fintech company.
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  I'm like, no, you're a financial company in this day and age.
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  Like of course you're in tech. Like that's, that's how it's
• 15:48
  delivered. It's like, it's like, no, we're
• 15:49
  fintech. I was like, and now, yeah, it
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  was like we got to tell everyone it's AI.
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  And I do, I do a lot of naming. And right now of course I'm
• 16:03
  naming a lot of AI companies and they all want to say AI or have
• 16:08
  words with AI in it, like aid or something.
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  But I just like just move on, just be a cool brand that that
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  uses AI, you know, it's just part of the job.
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  But look, writing in this day and age with AI is it's so new.
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  AI is actually so, so new. And for some people they go, Oh
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  no, it's been around years, but it's so, so new.
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  And everyone's kind of excited because AI can write for you
• 16:45
  really quickly and really well because most, I'm a writer, but
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  most people are not writers. So they go, oh, let's, let's
• 16:53
  give it to AI. But here's the thing I'm saying
• 16:58
  is my number one job, I do many things for my clients, but my
• 17:03
  number one job is to stop them conforming to the conventions of
• 17:07
  the category. If you're an insurance company,
• 17:10
  all insurance companies write like insurance companies, gyms
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  like write like gyms, podcast, write like podcast, right?
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  So that and we can't help it. It's in our subconscious when we
• 17:20
  go, oh, I have to write for an insurance company, our
• 17:22
  subconscious of years and years adhering insurance companies
• 17:26
  writes like we think it should sound like.
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  And then you show other people that go, that sounds right.
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  And you just reinforce the convention of the category.
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  What's happening now is that AI is writing everything in every
• 17:44
  category, and AI has its own cliches and it's reinforcing the
• 17:49
  conventions of the AI category. And everyone is sounding the
• 17:55
  same. And what's really interesting is
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  especially, I mean brands all want to be respected.
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  They want to be unique. They want to be distinctive.
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  They want to be trusted. But when you're sounding like
• 18:09
  everyone else, guess what? You're not going to achieve
• 18:13
  those things. And I'm seeing more and more
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  experts write articles, and I know AI has written them.
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  And I go, well, all of a sudden your expertise is out the window
• 18:24
  because you're sounding like everyone else.
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  So you may not realize that AI is already speaking in its own
• 18:33
  cliches. And I'm going to take you
• 18:36
  through, I thought and I've been pulling these together and as I
• 18:42
  say them, you're going to recognize them.
• 18:45
  But here's here's some really overused AI terms that the first
• 18:52
  one I call the overeager optimist.
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  So you will here unlock your full potential, empowering you
• 18:59
  to thrive, revolutionizing the way you insert generic benefit
• 19:03
  here. This overeager optimist AI is
• 19:07
  very good at it. And but what it is, it's very
• 19:11
  vague, it's inflated and it sounds like every brand ever,
• 19:16
  it's trying far too hard without actually saying anything
• 19:20
  specific. So the overeager optimist is not
• 19:24
  a great thing, neither is the faux human.
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  So AI will say we get it. Let's face it, in today's
• 19:34
  fast-paced world, Oh. Totally.
• 19:36
  It's. It's AI's go to attempt of
• 19:38
  sounding very conversational and very human.
• 19:42
  But by saying it again, again and again, it feels generic in
• 19:46
  formulaic and it it clearly goes, it wraps me up the wrong
• 19:50
  way because it's like, hey, the robot's trying to be my friend
• 19:53
  and it's it's defeating the purpose.
• 19:58
  This is my current. Blood bear out of all of them,
• 20:03
  it's called the grand mission mic drop.
• 20:05
  And this is the formula because it's not just X.
• 20:10
  It's put deep philosophical statement about X here.
• 20:14
  So for instance, Ryan, this is not just an AI podcast.
• 20:18
  It's a powerful road map for business in 2025.
• 20:23
  This is 1 I found this morning because Toby's isn't just a
• 20:26
  coffee house, it's a microcosm of what coffee houses have
• 20:29
  always done. Or when I saw we're not just
• 20:32
  making beer, we're brewing change.
• 20:35
  I mean, for goodness sake. So this is the one you will see
• 20:41
  again and again and again. And you're not.
• 20:44
  And as soon as you see it, you go, AI write this.
• 20:47
  It leans on the same pattern every time and it's, it's
• 20:50
  contrast mission and obstruction all together.
• 20:53
  And AI loves this because it scans really well.
• 20:56
  It sounds lofty, but it's so conceptually airy that I just
• 21:02
  roll my eyes every time I see it.
• 21:05
  You know, one thing you pointed out was brevity is really
• 21:08
  important. You said by wasting words,
• 21:10
  companies are wasting a lot more.
• 21:12
  You know, I recognize all those AI cliches.
• 21:15
  You hear them all the time. What?
• 21:17
  What's a way you can avoid that? What are what is good messaging
• 21:22
  where companies aren't wasting words?
• 21:23
  What are the characteristics of that?
• 21:26
  Yeah, that's a good question and it's something that I make my
• 21:32
  clients do. I at the start of our session, I
• 21:35
  put about 20 words or phrases up on the screen.
• 21:39
  I say, oh, look, by the way, before we start, these words are
• 21:43
  banned and their faces drop because they go, but we that's
• 21:48
  all the words we say. And I went and so does all your
• 21:51
  competitors. So do you want to sound like
• 21:54
  them? And they go no, and then end a
• 21:55
  conversation. So first of all, be really
• 22:00
  aware. Like if you don't have me up
• 22:03
  there telling you these are the words you can't say is start
• 22:06
  looking at your category and your competition and go, wow,
• 22:10
  these are things we say again and again.
• 22:12
  Again, In fact, ask AI. If you ask another question, it
• 22:16
  will tell you. It'll tell you.
• 22:18
  It'll tell you the cliches, but then how do you write and avoid
• 22:24
  cliches is look, there's many things, but the thing I try and
• 22:29
  do and I think is just so refreshing is you write like you
• 22:35
  speak. The more conversational you can
• 22:40
  be, the more stops and starts and using everyday words, the
• 22:50
  more genuine you sound and the more natural you sound and
• 22:53
  therefore more believable and more trustworthy.
• 22:56
  So the way to do that is you can't do that by yourself.
• 23:03
  You actually do it in a group and you'd say how do, how, how
• 23:06
  would you say this? And, and just get everyone to
• 23:09
  say it and then verbatim write down verbatim what people said
• 23:13
  that you'd really like the sound of.
• 23:15
  And then don't change it. Don't, don't try and conform to
• 23:19
  the convention and the cliches and the corporate jargon.
• 23:23
  Just use it and it will sound natural.
• 23:30
  That's the hard part is using it right.
• 23:33
  The one thing I've noticed doing a lot of podcasts is the
• 23:37
  transcriptions of the things I saved are a little bit
• 23:40
  incoherent to be, to be generous with myself.
• 23:44
  You know, the, the conversational English has darts
• 23:48
  and dodges and they're moving around and it's dynamic and I'm
• 23:52
  using my hands right now on my face to tell you what I mean.
• 23:54
  And when you do, when you put it straight into words, a lot of
• 23:57
  times it it doesn't have the same frequency, it doesn't have
• 24:01
  the same fluency. So how?
• 24:03
  How do you know when a run on sentence went ran on too long
• 24:08
  and where you should step in and edit that?
• 24:11
  Yeah. Well, I mean, you should always
• 24:13
  edit. I mean, less is always more.
• 24:17
  And in fact, when I create a ton of voice for a brand, I would
• 24:20
  say 90% of them as concise or short or sharp, some version of
• 24:28
  that in a editing. Editing is very, very powerful
• 24:33
  because you don't just want to keep talking about yourself.
• 24:37
  You want and you, you got to value people's time.
• 24:41
  So you should edit. It's more, I mean, I, I love a
• 24:46
  sentence that has one word followed by another sentence
• 24:49
  that has visit one word. And it, it what, what you're
• 24:52
  doing is you're jarring the reader.
• 24:55
  And if you jar them, they're going to be more engaged rather
• 24:59
  than just moving on. So that that is the power of
• 25:05
  using the cadence of how people speak in how you write is very
• 25:11
  distinctive and and very. Very powerful.
• 25:13
  Amazing. Greg, hold on.
• 25:15
  Just for 10 seconds. So sorry, but it's driving me
• 25:18
  crazy. I got to put it outside.
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  My goodness. Cool, so.
• 26:43
  Example. I thought you were going to say,
• 26:44
  oh, sorry, go ahead. We got it.
• 26:46
  We just got to, we got to stop for a commercial break.
• 26:48
  But no, you had you had to stop for the cat.
• 26:51
  Yeah, Speak to us about brands that do it right, who gets it
• 26:55
  well and who does a does a good job at this.
• 27:01
  Well, there's there's the obvious ones like Nike.
• 27:07
  I mean, Nike is the GOAT. Nike is the greatest of all
• 27:11
  timer brand storytelling of being a motive.
• 27:16
  You know, its tagline is a challenge, is an emotive
• 27:21
  challenge to its audience. It's not it's not talking about
• 27:25
  the shoes like that's what I was talking about of stop telling a
• 27:29
  story you want to tell and stop telling the one the audience
• 27:31
  wants to hear. And in fact, none of their
• 27:35
  stories are about their shoes. They're about athletes, whether
• 27:40
  they're the famous athletes that they sponsor or the everyday
• 27:44
  athlete that is you and I. And they pick big emotive causes
• 27:50
  to get behind. I mean, and they and they held
• 27:55
  the stories so well. My favorite one from Nike was Bo
• 28:00
  Jackson. The whole Bo nose campaign.
• 28:04
  Bo nose. Unbelievable.
• 28:05
  And then the punchline, you got Wayne Gretzky skate up and he's
• 28:08
  like, no. Yeah, I just do it so well.
• 28:15
  And then they've never dipped. They've never dipped.
• 28:21
  One more time. So yeah, they've they've never
• 28:25
  dipped. They've never, never dipped.
• 28:27
  They've always stayed up there. Apple, of course, does it well,
• 28:33
  but in a very different way. They they hardly say anything.
• 28:37
  Their store, their story is their product.
• 28:39
  Like they know that and that is sexy.
• 28:44
  Totally. And they don't, they don't, they
• 28:45
  don't talk about the product very much.
• 28:47
  They just make you drew. And you know, brands like
• 28:53
  Starbucks have always been great at it.
• 28:56
  But I I'll tell you there's three that probably that are a
• 29:03
  bit newer that I'm really good at it.
• 29:07
  My favorite is Oatley oat milk. People don't realize it was a
• 29:13
  brand that had been around over 30 years in Sweden and it was
• 29:17
  just this earnest, boring milk alternative and it did very
• 29:24
  little outside of Sweden and didn't even do that much in
• 29:27
  Sweden. And then this guy took over and
• 29:29
  said we're changing the tone of voice, we're going to be really
• 29:32
  different. And Oh my God, they are now the
• 29:38
  world's number one oat milk. They're you see them in every
• 29:41
  country around the world. Their packaging is a story.
• 29:47
  They use the most distinctive, funny, edgy voice and you just
• 29:53
  love them. And it's created a whole new
• 29:55
  generation of non milk drinkers. So they are incredible then.
• 30:05
  Sorry man, I I can't hear you. Oh shoot, I was muted.
• 30:09
  Sorry. You're muted, you know, go.
• 30:15
  Ahead, I'm sorry I interrupted you.
• 30:20
  And Liquid Death is really great.
• 30:24
  I mean, they're just pushing the limits, making people laugh in
• 30:29
  the most unexpected ways. They're not conforming to any
• 30:33
  conventions of any category. They're so great.
• 30:36
  And another recent success story in storytelling has been Formula
• 30:41
  One. Their Netflix series has just
• 30:47
  brought them a whole new audience and showing the real
• 30:50
  drama of the sport, and that is real classic storytelling and
• 30:56
  has really, really, really worked for Formula One.
• 30:59
  So they're 3 apart from the big classic obvious ones that I
• 31:03
  think do it really, really well. And I love watching them, Yeah.
• 31:08
  I want to make sure I let the folks know where they can get
• 31:10
  your book. What's the best place to order
• 31:13
  the book? My book Creating a Blockbuster
• 31:17
  brand, the best place really. I mean, you can get on Amazon
• 31:24
  and websites, but if you if you go to blockbusterbrands.com,
• 31:31
  you'll find everything about the book and it will show you.
• 31:35
  Cool. How you can buy it, and there's
• 31:37
  often bonuses on there as well. That's blockbuster brands.com.
• 31:40
  Now I admire authors because I am an aspiring author, but also
• 31:46
  super intimidated by the whole process.
• 31:48
  So, you know, with with the book, I'm sure there was stuff
• 31:53
  that that didn't show up on the book, the blooper reel.
• 31:56
  What were some of the things that didn't make it into the
• 31:58
  book? You know what it goes back to
• 32:06
  probably the stuff that I was saying fundamentally about
• 32:13
  brands is don't tell the story you want to tell.
• 32:18
  Start telling the one the audience wants to hear.
• 32:20
  And my first, my first draft, I was pretty happy with it.
• 32:28
  It was like, yeah, that's what I want to tell the world.
• 32:30
  And then I gave it to an editor and went this, this is all
• 32:36
  wrong. This is all in the wrong order.
• 32:38
  You're not thinking about the reader.
• 32:40
  The reader doesn't like you understand this and this
• 32:43
  process. You do it day in, day out, but
• 32:46
  the reader will have no clues. And as soon as he said it, I was
• 32:50
  like, you're right, you're right.
• 32:52
  And he's like, you need a consistent structure.
• 32:54
  You need to tell them how long each chapter is going to take
• 32:56
  you, what they're going to be doing, where they are in the
• 32:59
  chapter, right. You know, it's like guiding them
• 33:01
  through and so knowing where they are.
• 33:03
  And so there was probably a whole lot of detail or probably
• 33:10
  rambling. So I'm, I'm pretty efficient.
• 33:12
  I don't ramble too much. But when we when we reorganized
• 33:17
  it and restructured it, a lot got to let pushed to the cutting
• 33:23
  room floor. But I can tell you, Ryan, it's
• 33:26
  so much better for it. And here's The thing is we're
• 33:32
  really bad at telling our own story because we're too close to
• 33:36
  it. All my clients are really bad at
• 33:39
  telling their story because they're too close to it.
• 33:41
  My toughest client is me. I'm too close to I, I can't tell
• 33:46
  my story. And then was so wonderful in
• 33:51
  writing a book to have an editor who is an expert as someone from
• 33:55
  outside who you know, even though it was a lot more work, I
• 34:00
  was so excited because I was like, you've shown me such a
• 34:03
  better way. And I really loved, I really
• 34:06
  loved that. It's encouraging to hear that
• 34:08
  the editor needs an editor. Yeah.
• 34:12
  Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
• 34:14
  Well, and then I actually got 2 editors.
• 34:17
  I was, I interviewed a whole lot and this one that restructured,
• 34:23
  I was like, you're really good at understanding structure and
• 34:27
  organization and I want you to do that.
• 34:30
  And there was this other girl who just was so whip smart and
• 34:35
  she got my tone of voice. And so I worked with him first
• 34:40
  and we did the structure and then I worked with her in just
• 34:43
  making it flow and using little tricks of language and making
• 34:50
  making it more me with her. So excited to check it out.
• 34:56
  This has been an awesome conversation.
• 34:58
  Greg, before we wrap up, Are you ready for the Lightning Round?
• 35:04
  What is the lightning round? No, it's just a story.
• 35:07
  So fast. No, I'm just using some
• 35:13
  storytelling here. No, it's good storytelling
• 35:19
  because you've you've caught the audience, me by surprise.
• 35:24
  All right. First first SO.
• 35:26
  Yeah, we, whether I'm ready or not, let's, let's do it.
• 35:28
  Let's. Do it.
• 35:29
  OK, let's just say you sold your book the book rights for a multi
• 35:34
  franchised movie deal for a billion dollars.
• 35:37
  You got a bag with a billion dollars.
• 35:39
  What is your next move? What do you work on next?
• 35:46
  You know what I would do? I would create a whole lot of
• 35:52
  businesses based around storytelling, so that could be
• 36:00
  anything from really twisted greeting cards or theatre in a
• 36:15
  in a new way. I would just create lots and
• 36:18
  lots of different things around storytelling, and that would be
• 36:22
  the thread. But I would just put all my
• 36:26
  money into amplifying storytelling in many, many
• 36:30
  different ways. Cool.
• 36:31
  I I love a good card, a good greeting card.
• 36:35
  Yeah. I had a had a friend once who
• 36:37
  had a company called Tree Killer Cards, and they're all just the
• 36:40
  most vulgar cards. It's pretty fun, yeah.
• 36:45
  Vul vulgar cards are the best when Yeah yeah yeah.
• 36:50
  If you were entering college today to kind of taking a look
• 36:53
  at the landscape in the future we're entering into, what would
• 36:55
  you study? You know, this might sound
• 37:02
  controversial, but I wouldn't go to college.
• 37:05
  Didn't they? I just think it's an outdated,
• 37:10
  archaic, money grabbing, conformist, expensive system
• 37:18
  that doesn't really you know, which in the world of AI like I
• 37:26
  just not sure it's it's worth what it used to be.
• 37:37
  But if I was it would be something in the arts.
• 37:43
  You know, when everyone's zigging, you got a zag.
• 37:47
  And I think that that's the far more interesting future as as
• 37:53
  more and more AI does what a lot of really clever people have
• 37:57
  done in the past, what you got to find a way to do something
• 38:02
  that only you can do. I love that I'm a brand.
• 38:09
  How do I know I'm telling the right story?
• 38:17
  Well, I actually have, I have a really good solution for that.
• 38:24
  I've I've actually had in many different ways people ask that
• 38:29
  question. So I've actually created a new
• 38:34
  website calledstorytellingquiz.com and
• 38:39
  what it does, it tells people who have a business how well
• 38:45
  they're doing with this, their stories and their messaging.
• 38:49
  Think of it kind of like a messaging health check.
• 38:52
  And you know, in business, people always review the
• 38:56
  products, their service. They might do their look and
• 39:00
  feel, they might redo their logo, but hardly ever anyone
• 39:04
  puts enough effort or analyzes their messaging.
• 39:07
  And it's the number one thing that will tell people whether
• 39:13
  they should use you or not. So I've broken down all the key
• 39:17
  elements of good brand storytelling.
• 39:21
  So that's clarity, distinctiveness, tone of voice,
• 39:24
  emotional resonance, all these different things.
• 39:27
  And it's a really simple, it's multiple choice.
• 39:29
  There's sliding scales, there's different buttons to press.
• 39:33
  It's really fun. And it only takes a few minutes,
• 39:36
  but at the end of it, you'll get a scorecard of how you rate, how
• 39:41
  your brand rate is currently rating in its brand
• 39:43
  storytelling. And I tell you what you're doing
• 39:47
  well and what you're not and how you can do them better.
• 39:52
  So that's a good way to know if a brand is doing a good job or
• 39:58
  not is storytelling quiz dot. Com so cool storytelling
• 40:01
  quiz.com. I'm looking at it now.
• 40:03
  It's 5 minutes like you said, it's interactive.
• 40:06
  You you you punch the buttons. It makes it really fun.
• 40:10
  Greg, this has been fantastic. I, I would love to have you back
• 40:12
  on and talk about storytelling. I want to make sure people go
• 40:15
  buy the book Creating a Blockbuster Brand by Greg Logan.
• 40:19
  It's it's everywhere. Go order it now.
• 40:23
  Where's a good place? People can connect with you
• 40:25
  online if they want to learn more or if they want to work
• 40:28
  with you. Yeah, my business is called
• 40:35
  Narrativity. So you just go to
• 40:38
  narrativity.com and that's my business if you want to work
• 40:43
  with me directly. And then Blockbuster brands for
• 40:51
  the book and check out storytelling quiz.com, all those
• 40:57
  dot coms. Greg well, in all the show
• 41:00
  notes, we'll have all the links, so you guys can check those out
• 41:03
  below. Greg, it's been a pleasure.
• 41:05
  Thank you so much. Thank you, Ryan.
• 41:09
  That was fun. We could have told stories for
• 41:14
  much, much longer, but it's been really great.
• 41:16
  And I and look, I hope, I hope people really learn something
• 41:21
  and open their eyes to the power of storytelling in business.
• 41:26
  It's the tip of the iceberg. Really appreciate it, Greg.
• 41:30
  Thank you. Hey founders, let me ask you
• 41:34
  this, are you building with AI or getting left behind by it?
• 41:39
  If you're serious about scaling smarter, faster and bolder, you
• 41:43
  need to check out AI for founders.co.
• 41:47
  It's your go to resource for cutting through the noise and
• 41:50
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