Latest / Gay Men Going Deeper / Reinventing Yourself

Transcript

Reinventing Yourself · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Today's episode is sponsored by the Silva ultramind system, which is a highly optimized framework for awakening your mind's fullest potential by giving you a reliable access to altered states of mind. That's based on the Silva Method, a pioneering mind empowerment methodology founded in 1960. Basically, it's a long way of saying it's a meditation style that I started using recently and it has changed my life. It's more of an active type of meditation. So it's not any of that like, clear your mind stuff, get super quiet. It's more of an act of like doing something with your mind. You're actively thinking. And I can say I've seen measurable difference in my life since implementing it. They also have a super easy to use app, so you can use it on any smart device that you want. So if you're interested, you can head on over to our show Notes and look at the Silva ultramind System link that we have there. Now, let's get on with today's episode.
• 0:56
  Speaker B: Welcome to the Gay Men Going Deeper Podcast, a podcast series by the GAM's brotherhood where we talk about personal development, mental health and sexuality. Today. Your hosts are Callan Breen, Michael Diorio, and myself, Matt Lanal. Collectively, we have over 40 years of experience in the personal development world. And if this is your first time listening to us, we want to welcome you. We each have our own coaching practice, but in this podcast we're sharing all of our best stuff. Today, we're talking about reinventing yourself. I am beyond excited about this topic. Callan and I squealed like schoolgirls when we came up with this topic because, you know, all three of us are in the transformative space in, in the transformation industry and we get our rocks off on transformation, both within ourselves and others. So we're excited to share all of our stuff with you guys. Today we're going to be talking about four questions. What has contributed to defining your self image? How have you let go of old versions of yourself? How have you gone about reinventing yourself? And how do you perceive yourself now? How much of that perception comes from how others respond to you? So, big questions. We got some big juicy questions today, so it's going to be some good, good content coming your way. So we will continue these discussions on the last Thursday of every month in the Gay Men's Brotherhood Zoom Hangout, where you will have your chance to share your own experiences. So come and join us. This podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. So if you enjoy what you what we're creating. You can go ahead and support us over on Patreon and contribute to the show that way. You can also subscribe to early access option on Apple Podcast, listen ad free and gain early access to episodes. All your support helps us to continue making content for you and supporting our community. We do thank you in advance. Also, you can check out our new attachment style quiz in the show notes to find out what attachment style you have and get a free report on that. So before we jump into today's episode, let's read a review from one of our listeners. So this comes from Richard, Florida man on our YouTube channel on the loneliness episode, episode 111. And it's very simple but very, very powerful. He says, I love this podcast. I just want to hug all of you. Thank you for being here. Yeah, big hugs, big hug.
• 3:24
  Speaker A: Richard. Richard, right?
• 3:26
  Speaker B: Richard.
• 3:26
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 3:27
  Speaker B: Okay, good. So thank you, Richard. We appreciate your love. Okay, so reinventing yourself, you might be thinking, what is, what does it mean to reinvent ourselves? And essentially what we are talking about is transformation. So I have three definitions I want to define for us before we get started. The first one is transformation. So transformation is a change in the appearance or character of something or someone, especially so that that thing or person is improved. So when we're talking about reinventing ourselves, we're talking about us having the perception that something has been improved, we've reinvented, and we've become a better version of ourselves. That's the definition of transformation. Next definition that's important is self image. Okay, because this is what we're transforming. We're transforming how we view ourselves or how others view us. So this self image is the personal view or mental picture that we have of ourselves. Self image is an internal dictionary that describes the characteristics of the self, including such things as intelligence, beauty, ugly being, ugly, talented, selfish, kind, any of these sorts of things of how we describe ourselves or descriptors that we have of ourselves. The next one is perception, and this one's a little bit more complicated to describe. So I was trying to think of how I could describe this in a way that is going to be receivable. So I'll. I'll give it my best shot. So most people believe that there's a collective reality. There's one reality on this planet. And it's like when something happens, we all perceive it. We all perceive in this one reality. And some people believe there's multiple realities, some people believe there's multiple universes. But for the simplicity of this episode, we're going to be coming from the notion that there's one collective reality within that reality. There is, well, 8 billion people on this planet. So there's 8 billion realities at play here, okay? This is why there's so much division on the planet. So many people thinking so many different things, because we all are filtering our realities through the perception that we have, which that's what a perception is. It's. It's how we view a reality and the meaning that we make of that reality that becomes our reality. So why that's important to note is that our reality around us is going to strongly influence how we view ourselves. Then that leads to self perception, which is essentially self image, right? We have this. We have this image that we see ourselves or that how others see us, we begin acting in certain ways. We get reflected back to us by the people around us in the ways that we want to be. Be acting. So everything. It's kind of like one big stage, right? Life is kind of like one big stage. And we're all like actors and actresses on this stage. And it's important to understand how we're showing up in the world and how we view ourselves, because it'll definitely make it easier for transformation to take place when we do understand how we're showing up or at least how we. We want to be perceived as well. So the good news about all this is our. Our perceptions are constantly changing, right? Of reality, constantly. So our perceptions are constantly changing of ourselves as well. So that's the beauty of this. And I think that's why we wanted to have this, this episode today is because transformation, although challenging, it's very possible. And we're always shedding skin and we're always rebirthing throughout the course of our lives. So we want to share some. Some tips and tricks on how you can make this process a little bit more seamless. So I'll give you guys an example. When it comes to us as gay men, so internalized homophobia, in this collective reality, there are belief systems and people who believe that being gay is somehow wrong and being feminine is somehow wrong. And when we perceive this in our reality and we make meaning of it to be a bad thing, this is where internalized homophobia comes from. So it's a perception of a group of people that we've internalized to create a perception of ourselves. And. And that's why it's internalized homophobia, because we have it inside of ourselves, because we have yet to make peace with the healthy perception for gay men, which is that being gay is natural, normal, and we were born this way. And what that shows us when somebody has a lot of hetero or internalized homophobia is that they've bought into the heteronormative social constructs, right? That being heterosexual means somehow that you're better than. Or whatever that might be. So this is a very big thing that, you know, that I've experienced in my life and that I've seen in a lot of the gay men that I work with is really struggling to find total peace with being gay. So that's one example. Next thing I have here is, okay, so I want people when throughout the course of this episode, I want you to think about, what in your life were you reinforced for growing up? So maybe you were, like, the straight A student, Maybe you were the athlete, Maybe you were whatever. So I want you to keep that in mind. What did your parents or the people around you growing up reinforce you for? What do they validate you for? Because that's going to play a big role in how you want to be perceived. Because that's. We. We oftentimes take that on. It's like, yep, this is who I am. And that becomes a solid part of our identity.
• 9:00
  Speaker A: Right?
• 9:01
  Speaker B: And if we need to shift away from that, we need to learn that I can be more than these things. That's the reinvention of the self. On the other side of that, that same coin we have, what were we shamed for? What were we told is not okay to be who we are? So maybe we were more flamboyant or feminine growing up. Maybe we were sensitive. Maybe we were gay. Right? Which we all are, if you're listening to this podcast, for the most part, Right? And we, Some of us may have experienced shame or invalidation for being who we were. And that could also play a role in you becoming further away from your authentic self. Because it's like, I got to hide who I am authentically because it's not safe to be who I am. Then we create this perception of who we are, and it's not authentic. Authentic. This is completely my story, and this is why I wanted to share that, because a lot of my healing has come from moving away from who I'm not and more towards who I am and finding acceptance for that. So I really wanted to share that with you guys. So. So you have kind of an idea of. Of where we're going. I just want to read this quickly. Let go of. Yeah, okay, I. I made that point. So, yeah. So let's hop into the first question. What has contributed to defining your self image? So I'll let whoever jump in, Whoever wants to jump in.
• 10:21
  Speaker C: Alan can start this time.
• 10:23
  Speaker B: I was gonna pick that up.
• 10:25
  Speaker A: I was like, why do I feel like y' all are both looking at me? It's all good. First, I want to say happy New year. It's now 2023 for all the listeners out there. And so that's kind of why we went with the whole, you know, reinvent yourself, new Year, new you kind of vibes. So I'm really excited about this topic, and thanks so much for that introduction. Off the top, Matt. That was a lot of good, juicy info. So, for myself, what has contributed to defining my self image? So many things, but I would say a lot of it comes from my youth and my experience and, like, my perceptions. And it was really difficult because I got very mixed messages growing up. My mom was very, like, trying to break the cycles. And so she kept, like, words why. She was really good at telling me, like, I could do whatever I want. I could be whatever I want when I grow up. And she was good at that and kind of, like, trying her best to, like, give that inspiration of, like, you can do this. It's okay, and to go for it. But logistically, there was no. Like, she didn't know how to then support that. It was like. Or we didn't have the resources because we didn't have any money. So it's not like she couldn't physically do anything. She just, like, planted the seeds of, like, you can do things. So I had that on one side of the coin, and then on the other side of the coin, I had my dad, who was not very talkative at all and didn't graduate. My mom and dad, neither one of them graduated high school, and I think he just kind of, like, got by. And then the partner he chose to be with, she was a very negative person. And so she was the opposite of my mom. She was like, you're not going to be anything. You're not going to do anything. Anytime I ever shared dreams or inspirations, she was always, like, the laughing, cynical, like, good luck with that. Like, that was the energy. And so it was like two sides of this coin. And that's why I like to spend more time with my mom, because my mom made me feel good. She made me feel like I could do things. But then over here, there was this reinforcement of, like, you're not good enough. You're never going to be good enough. And so when you grow up or. So when I grew up. I kind of like carried these belief systems with me. Part of me is like, yeah, I can do all this stuff, but there's still this background of, like, you know, once you're, you know, kind of like once your trailer park trash, you're always going to be trailer park trash. Like, that kind of energy to it. Not that anybody who lives in trailer parks are trash. It's absolutely not true. But that mentality, that sentiment kind of goes along with it. And so, like, I still carry that in my mind that, like, you know, are those things true? Was there truth there? I know that that's just her trying to bring me down, but, like, why did that have to happen? So a lot of that contributed to my self image and who I was as a person. And that was difficult through school and because then you get into a group of friends and people reinforce your beliefs because you make friends with the other people who are at your level. And so then when you make friends with people at that level, then they reinforce the level that you're at. It's like, oh, we're not the popular kids, we're not the cool kids, we're not the attractive kids. And like, you reinforce that for each other. And so that continues to build that. That idea of your self image for yourself. And so that all of that kind of compounds. And that all happens at such those, like, tender ages, like when you're really absorbing who you are, that by the time you get out of high school and you get to choose who you want to be. Like, my God, graduating was the best fucking thing that ever happened. But, like, once you get to choose who you can be, it's great. But you still have, like, what, 18 years of all this baggage that you've just built on top of it. And so now you have to do years of unpacking that. So I'd say that that's kind of like the major things that contributed to, like, defining my self image and who I am. And it's now shifted, of course, in my adult years and I've gotten to chose. Choose what I wanted to be and who I wanted to be. But it's still. That stuff still carries with me of, like, if I'm approaching a client or I'm trying to do something where I'm thinking like, oh, I'm getting too big for my britches. Like, that energy still comes with me of like, oh, but this is who you are. And like, the little child self comes out like, you're not good enough. And I'm working really hard at changing that. And actually 2023 is my year of fear. I'm committing to, like, if it scares me, I'm gonna do it. Because like, lately, I guess the pandemic kind of kept us all small. And now I'm like, okay, enough of that. It's the year of fear. Let's like tackle things and take things on. And so I'm gonna actively work on this year, switching and changing a lot of these perceptions and just doing a lot of science experiments throughout the year to see, like, I want to do this, but let's do the scary thing and see what happens. So, yeah, so that was a long winded self image. But what about, what about you guys? What about you, Michael?
• 15:17
  Speaker C: Well, my gosh, this episode could be like probably three episodes. We probably divided into three if you really wanted to. Great questions. And already there's so much that you guys have said that I want to touch on. We're all very similar in our own, in some of our own ways, which, you know, I think is interesting. But the way I want to answer, what has contributed to defining your self image? Okay, the, the first obvious thing that came to mind for me was just what other people tell me about me. Just what other people reflect back at me. Because that's generally historically how we do it, right? We learn from our parents or teachers or adults in our life as children reflecting back for us, you know, are you a good boy? Are you a bad boy? That kind of thing. And that kind of sticks with us through. Through adult life. So there's that. I though think it's more these days more accurate to say that I look at my self image through my own eyes. So the beliefs I have about myself. So this is how I think about myself. The beliefs I have about myself, the good and the bad, right? Not. It's not all shiny roses and happiness. It's. There's a lot of critical stuff in there, a lot of shame that, that I've worked through or that continue to work through this skills I have, my achievements, my past. That's a really good point. You know, looking at ourselves, defining ourselves by our past can be useful, but I think it actually prevents reinvention because I think part of it is letting go. Letting go of that past version of you, which I know we're going to talk about. But yeah, like really looking at. Okay, this is the kind of person I was, therefore it's the kind of person I'm always going to be like. That mentality sticks with me a bunch. My story, my experiences, the things I do with my time, all of these are like sort of ways that I define my self image. However, I think the most useful and the one that I, the one that I coach and the one that I try my best to honor when it comes to self image is using. And I've talked about this on the podcast before, but it's. It's worth mentioning again, this concept of past self, future self. So I am now, today, combination of the. The Michael who got me here, my past self, and the Michael that I am becoming, the future self. So how I like to think of these two people, our past self is the guy, the Michael who got me to where I am now. So I want to thank him. I don't want to shame him. He's made some mistakes, yes, but we don't judge him, or at least we're trying not to judge him for the mistakes he made. And I think of that sometimes it's like a little boy version of me. Sometimes it's the version of me that was like, you know, two weeks ago. But either way, it's this past version of me that got me to where I am. So that's part of it. Absolutely. And then on the other side of it is the future self. This is the Michael that I am becoming. You know, the way I imagine him is empowered, wise, courageous, kind, strong, really in his own element. Whereas I think past, past version of Michael was strong, but he didn't know how strong he was. And I don't think he utilized his strengths. And then all that combined is me where I am now. So I'm a combination of this man. I'm becoming this man that I was and living in the here and now, making decisions. And so that is, I think, the way that I like to teach it and it's the way I try to live it the most of the time. But also I want to make room for the fact that, yes, of course, my self image is also defined by the way I think about myself and how others think about me. So that's my. That's my answer for, for that. And I'm going to go back to this past self, future self quite a bit on this episode. So, you know, take notes.
• 18:36
  Speaker B: Yeah, I love it. I love that concept. And it's like almost like looking through the rearview mirror is like a great reference point to like, ok, like this was. Because, you know, it's funny, I have a lot of shame sometimes when I look back at, like old pictures of me, I'm like, oh, my God, I can't believe I wore my hair like that or whatever. So it's always this contrast. And, and for you, Callan, I really resonate with the, The Year of Fear. For me, it's, I'm, it's. I'm framing it as courage, the Year of Courage. Because I'm, I'm doing the exact same thing as you. And I really want to solidify my growth mindset because I think I've been dancing between fixed in growth and I want to fully just get into a growth mindset where I can try anything, do anything, and not be terrified of failure. So, yeah, we're on a similar trajectory there. I love that. All right, so I wrote down a few things here. What has contributed to defining my self image? So the first one was. Well, the first. The first part of my life, I would say, up until about two or three years ago, has been very externally motivated. So how I define my self image was very much about how people responded to me. So that was a big one. So I, I, that. That really fueled how I wanted to be seen, which is the second thing. So how people responded to me and how they, how they showed up around me really influenced how I define myself. I wrote down how to look or how I look and how I feel. These are two really important things, because I think how I looked has been a huge factor of how people respond to me. People have, like, validated me for my appearance, for being masculine, for being athletic. Even in my family system, it was very much like I grew up playing hockey, you know, riding dirt bikes. Like, I was very much like a. An athletic, kind of masculine kid. And I always had this, like, shadow of femininity because I think this real person of who I am, like my. My most authentic self, is more governed by femininity. I'm. I'm very nurturing, very loving, very kind, but I kind of suppressed a lot of those parts of myself because I was afraid of being seen that that way. So I think the overarching thing for me that defined my self image was shame, believe it or not, because I tried to not let the world see the parts of me that I had rejected or split away from. And I had to be very controlled, very composed, very stoic, very serious. Like, I took on all of the. The programming of the masculine energy. I would say not even the masculine. I'd say the wounded masculine energy, because I didn't. I wasn't connecting to that. The part of me that. That appreciated and enjoyed femininity. It was very much a split from that so, yeah, I'll leave it at that. I think most of the meat of my questions are going to come down into the other three questions. But, yeah, so just to recap it, how people respond to me was a big one. How I want to be seen, how I look. And then similar to actually what you said, Michael, like, how I feel is now where I'm at. That's a big influence of my. My self image now is I. I'm very much about energy. It's the energy of who I am. And I'm learning how to. To be expansive and that I can be the masculine and I can be the feminine, and I can dance between the two. Even in an hour, I can dance between the two. So I'm. I'm not letting you. I'm not putting a lid on myself anymore. I'm letting myself express whatever the moment wants to express. So it's been. It's taken me a lot to get to this place, but. And I'll share that throughout the. The episode, but question two. How have you let go of old versions of yourself, Callum?
• 22:43
  Speaker A: Well, I kind of instantly, in this moment, I just thought of this meme that I saw on Instagram where it's just like. It's like astrology. So it's like Aquarius, and there's this person laying in bed with their eyes wide open, and there's like a quote thinking about, like, oh, my God, that thing that happened 12 years ago. And like, just like, it's like 3 in the morning and you just woken up and you're like, oh, my God, that thing. And so I can't say that I fully have let go of past versions of myself, because I. I don't do that to the extreme. But, like, there'll be things that will pop into my head. I'm like, oh, my God, like, from a hundred years ago. Like, do people still think about that? Are people still. Yeah. And it's just. I guess maybe that's just human nature. Like, we just constantly think of the weirdest shit and go over the weirdest shit in our heads. For me, letting go of old versions of myself, I don't think I let go of old versions of myself. I think of myself as, like, growing new layers constantly, but, like, not in a bad way. Growing new layers, like, just getting bigger and adding more to myself. It's kind of like an onion. Onions have layers, you know, so it's just like, as the onion grows, it keeps growing more layers and more layers and more layers. And I think that, you know, if something bad happened in that moment, it's bad, and it's the biggest thing of your life. But then, like me getting kicked out of my dad's house, it was like the biggest trauma of my life. But then over the years, the onions layers just have continued to grow on top and on top and on top. So it's still there, it's still part of me, but it's no longer like the biggest part of me. The biggest part of me is like the me today and the all encompassing of what I've gotten to do until now. So I'd say that I don't let go of old versions of myself. I acknowledge them for where I am now and I thank them for what they've taught me and that I try and remember that those aren't me. They were experiences that I went through or there were times of my life that I had to experience in order to get to where I am today. Because actually, this great example, when I was in high school, I went to high school, grade 9, 10, 11, and 12, and I had this friend, Lisa. We were really good friends. Grade nine. We were good friends throughout, kind of all through school. But, like, I went through a phase. And so in grade nine, I kind of showed up just being like, normal me. And then I kind of went through this like, punk phase. Like this like, dark punk phase. Like, I was angry at everything and then like, parent stuff and like, just like being a mess. And so then I went through this dark phase and hung out with, like, not the good, like the best people I could have been hanging out with. And then by the time I got to grade 12, I kind of had slipped back into, like, grade nine, like, just I and me. And that was kind of just a phase that I had to experience of being like, oh, I'm doing all these things. And I ended up stealing something from 711 one night. And I don't even know why I did it, but I did it. And then I was like, because that's what everybody I was hanging around. Like, that's the kind of things they did. So I was like, well, I got to kind of be like them. And then I remember my dad picked me up and he did. I didn't even get grounded or anything. I just remember him being like, this isn't who you are. And I was like, well, you don't even know who I am because you aren't even, like, you don't even show up for me in my life. So, like, not like you're teaching me anything. And Then that kind of did start this. Like, oh, but do I really want to be this person? Like, is this the path I want to choose? And then by the time I got to grade 12, Lisa came. I remember she was like, oh, it's like you're you again. Like, you went through, like, some stuff, and now you're back at being you. And to me, that was just more layers of the onion. So that I could say, I've experienced that. I've done that. I don't need to do that again in my life to figure it out. And I kind of say this sometimes to, like, you know, guys who are curious or, like, kind of have this mentality that they're like, well, maybe. I always say, if you want to try things sexually with people, do it when you're younger and do it when you're not in a relationship and get it out of your system, because at least you're not going to have it in the back of your head going, what if? What if? What if? And I think that a lot of my life has been that I'm like, you know what? I'll try the thing, and I'll do the thing, and I'll go through the experience so that I'm not sitting there at the end of the day going, what if? Because to me, that is, like, the worst. Like, I would. Like, I go down rabbit holes with what if? So I'm like, I'd rather try it, get out of the system, see if it works or not, and then come back around. So that's what I'll say about, like, old versions of myself and how I implement them into my life now.
• 27:22
  Speaker C: But what.
• 27:22
  Speaker A: What about you guys? Michael?
• 27:25
  Speaker C: I love the onion analogy. I have another one that I use, but I think the onion one actually gave me pause to think about it, because I think that's right. I mean, like I was saying earlier, the past self is always there, and there's an element of honoring it, but also, like, letting it go in terms of bringing it with us into our future. So the analogy that I like to use because I'm a plant daddy and I've always been into gardening is pruning. So anyone who does any kind of gardening or anything knows that pruning is a really big piece of it. You have to, like, trim back the tree or the bush or the flower to help new. New things grow. And that's part of how it goes. And because I see so much, so much of, like, our human experience tied into nature, that's how I kind of Think of letting go of old versions of myself as I'm pruning things for the purpose of allowing new things to grow. So that's just my. My little analogy there. But when it comes to our human brains, I think it's. It's important that we remember that our human brains don't want to change. Even when things are on the outset, not good, they still would prefer oftentimes to stay the same. I mean, yes, we want to change, we want things to get better in one part of our brain, but the sort of, you know, reptile brain wants us to stay very much the same. It wants to conserve that energy. So for me, what I found that is that when I'm letting go of old versions of myself, to do so with kindness and compassion. Hence, when I think about my past self, I try, like I said, not to judge him. I try to thank him, you know, and all this stuff, because then it's easier to let go coming from a place of love. But that's just. That's just for me, it's kind of like, hey, thank you so much for getting me this far. You know, you've done a great job, but your services are no longer required. And it's kind of like letting go of those things that don't serve me. So to answer this, I have some examples that. That I've used in my own life recently, and I'm going to talk about my reinvention. That I'm going to mostly talk about today is from going from my corporate subservient employee to completely changing and becoming an entrepreneur life coach, which is what I'm doing now. So that's my most recent reinvention. So I'm going to use a lot of those examples. So in that, again, there's the past self and the new self. I'm going to give you guys some examples of what the old and the new. So the old was not enough. I'm not enough. I'm not good enough. I'm not smart enough to do that. I'm not, you know, I'm not good enough to be an entrepreneur. All the. All the not enough stories, changing that to I am exactly enough. Right? Like, I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be. I'm exactly the right person to. Instead of the who am I? To, it's the I am, Michael. I am. I am the right person, too. The old me didn't want to take up space. I was, Matt, to your earlier point, I was, I think, rewarded, maybe not. Maybe that's not the right word. But I was rewarded for being a good little boy and not taking up space and not making a fuss and just being told to do what I do and be a good boy. And that was. That was me. I was a good boy, straight A student, good kid, did all my stuff until about high school. But anyway, so that sort of stayed with me. Even in the corporate world, I was a really good employee. I did what I needed to do, got my work done. So it was kind of like a not wanting to take up space. But as you guys know, as an entrepreneur, you need to. You need to take up space. You need to get over that, right? So now it's still keeping my humility. So humble enough to know that I'm not better than anyone else, but still wise enough to know that I have a lot to offer and I add value. And so that's the place I'm in now. Or that's the sort of new. But I had to let go of this, like, super humble to a fault. Oh, I don't want to take up space. I don't want to cause a. Don't want to cause a ruckus. Another way was living on the sidelines of my life. So kind of passively just going with the flow of my life versus really taking ownership and having a sense of agency and autonomy over all my choices. When you're a subservient corporate employee, that's. That's. You're rewarded for kind of letting other people call the shots and you just do what you're told. Being an entrepreneur, very different. You're calling the shots. You gotta take that responsibility. So another one would be feeding my excuses and indulging in the I don't know how. So the old Michael was like, I don't know how. I'm not gonna do it. That's it. Let's watch Netflix versus now. It's like, okay, I can figure this out. Like, I gotta, like, my dreams are worth this. My life is worth this. No more. And I'm gonna figure this out. I'm not gonna just gonna, you know, quit at the first obstacle. Let's do this. So that has been a big shift for me in the past, let's say three to five years, really taking that ownership and learning to. It's my life, it's my career, it's my job, it's my income. Like, I'm. I'm in charge. There's no. There's no one else who's in charge here. And then the. The last one would be And I've talked about this a lot too, is the running away from discomfort. Even up until, you know, recently, anytime something scared me or felt uncomfortable or felt like I didn't want to do it, I would either numb, numb that feeling or run away from it. And we've talked a lot about that, which, you know, I consider to be an emotionally immature response, like just run away, don't, don't bring it on. Whereas now I'm leaning into this discomfort, I call that emotional maturity. Learning how to deal with if you're doing exactly those things that, you know you have to do, I think, to, to get that life you want and realizing that it's worth it. So one thing I, I've noticed in my experience, I think for anyone out there listening who does want to do some kind of reinvention or change their life, I'll say this. If your life is already pretty cushy and comfortable like mine was, it's going to be really hard to change because again, you're going against your programming. I think that the, if you have a good life, it's going to be really hard to take on all of the work and all the shit that has to come up to go through a reinvention. So it's going to be really hard to let go of the old version if things are already pretty good. That's why I think a lot of people need to hit rock bottom to actually make changes in their life. They have to, like, go through the, the worst of it in order to bounce back. So it's actually, I think, at least in my experience, harder to do. And things are actually pretty good. I had the cushy corporate lifestyle. It was really hard to give that up and let that version of me go. But. But I had to do it because I had to give up the good life to get the great one. And I would say now my life is great. Before it was good, now it's really great. I gave up a good job for a fucking amazing job that I love, that satisfies me in so many ways. I gave up the comfort of that, you know, cushy lifestyle and the benefits and all the nice things that came with it for the opportunity to blow my own mind and see what I was capable of as an entrepreneur. So it is very much worth it. But I think it is harder to do if you're not, if you're not at that rock bottom phase, which I think might be. I wish there was some kind of like, experiment we could do to see that. I don't know if. I don't know if you guys have seen that as well, like, play out, but the worse things are, I think the easier it is maybe to bounce back. What do you guys have to say about that?
• 34:19
  Speaker A: Huh? I agree.
• 34:21
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 34:23
  Speaker B: Yeah. I think once you get to that rock bottom place, there's a grieving that you go through. And I think grief is the energy of transformation. It's the letting go, it's the snake shedding the skin. So I do. I do think that.
• 34:34
  Speaker A: Yeah, I'm getting a little tired of it, though. I would like to get rock bottom less often.
• 34:42
  Speaker B: Yeah. Less peaks and valleys.
• 34:45
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 34:45
  Speaker B: That's been such a signature of. My whole life is peeking and valleying and I'm like, just so done with it, which is just. It's. It's a. It's a sign for me that my psychology has been. There's been a lot of repression and a lot of shadow work that needed to be done because the peak and valleying for me was my shadow wreaking havoc in my life because I wasn't integrating it right. And that was painful, man. It was such painful work doing that. I think that's, you know, when. When I talk about letting go of old versions of myself, it's like shadow work was the self awareness piece. Doing the shadow work was me seeing the version that needed to be let go of. Right? Because it's like, oh, I'm. I'm so tired of my relationships, they're so shitty. I'm attracting all these losers, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, the shadow work is. Okay, well, let's take responsibility. Why am I attracting these people?
• 35:35
  Speaker C: Right?
• 35:35
  Speaker B: And look at the. Look at my own psychology, my own subconsciousness, and see what it is about my self that is attracting these people into my life and why do I need them, right? So that's been a big part of it. And then I think once I knew what needed to be let go of, it wasn't so much like. I agree with what you said, Kellen. It's not so much a letting go of like, just like forgetting, putting a. A cap on it. It's like disidentifying with it, you know, like this. For me, the psychology that I'm currently identifying with is the current version of myself.
• 36:07
  Speaker C: That.
• 36:07
  Speaker B: That is the reinvention, right. It sits at the forefront. That's the. What I'm grabbing on to when I have experiences right away. And I feel like when we do let go of old versions of ourselves, we're not dipping back into old pools to Define who we are. We're. We're in the pool that is at the forefront of. Of our consciousness, which is the current thoughts we're thinking. And I do want to make mention that our current thoughts we're thinking is influenced by the subconscious. And that's why I think this work is deeper than just changing the way we think about ourselves.
• 36:38
  Speaker C: Right.
• 36:38
  Speaker B: Which is a very cognitive behavioral model of. Of treatment, which is effective to a certain degree. But I do think we need to get at some of the deeper underlying stuff that is influencing us on a subconscious and a conscious level. And for me, that was shadow work. That was embodiment, that was grieving. And, you know, I think it goes even further for me because I'm now learning how to identify who I am based off of an embodied state of being, which is my energy. And I'm identifying less with the stories of who I am, which is my thoughts. Right. My thoughts are always trying to tell me that I'm this, this, this, and this, which I'll get to in question four. What, how I perceive myself. My energy is usually opposing that. And that's maybe the peak and valleying as well, is that this energy of who I am is very different from the thoughts that I've accumulated in the stories that I've been telling myself my whole life about who them. So I think I've had to learn how to stop telling and identifying with these old stories. And I think for me, that's the letting go is letting go of the stories and the narratives of who I am. But anyway, so the. I had shadow work at the top then grieving, which is like, really, like being like, holy. Like, yeah, I got a lot of work to do. I got some stuff to clean up. It's the grieving, letting go. And that for me was a very painful process. And I actually did that in Asia. When I first met you, Michael, I was going through like, a whole year of like, oh, just barfing out all this stuff and just purging. And. And it was really, really painful. But it was probably the most powerful year of my life, I think, as far as getting me on the track of, you know, being closer to who I am authentically. And then I wrote down, take responsibility. I took responsibility for my programming because I think this is. This is a big play, like, you know, of me identifying with who I'm not because I wanted to fit in or belong. And the taking responsibility for my programming meant the shadow work meant understanding why I have these shadow parts of me in the closet. And why I need to integrate them as opposed to projecting, blaming, denying, and using all the defense mechanisms, I was actually able to say, okay, this is my psychology. This is what I need to take responsibility for if I want to transform and reinvent myself. So that was a very humbling stage. I'll say, you know, taking responsibility for my programming was a lot of humility. And then I wrote down deconditioning myself, so unlearn who I am not again. That kind of goes in part with what I said before, but it's like I kind of experienced it as, like, throughout my life, I developed this operating system, and I had that operating system inside my. My consciousness for a long period of time. And then when I finally took responsibility for my programming and I said, I don't want to be this anymore, I set that intention with the universe. I do not want to be this guy anymore because I'm boxed in and I'm limited and I don't want to be. I want to be. I want to be expansive and infinite. I had to change my operating system. And I think for me, that is a very, you know, layman way of describing, like, a spiritual awakening. You go through the periods where you have, like, you know, the dark night of the soul, which is the purging, the grieving, and then you have the void, which is like, I've stepped out onto this ledge and I've got nothing under me. I've got nothing holding me, because I've let go of who I thought I was, but I haven't fully integrated who I am yet. So it's that space between. And it was. That was also a really challenging spot for me because my ego had nothing to grab on to or very little to grab on to, like, as far as self identity. So I was. I felt very vulnerable. I felt very fragile. I felt very sensitive. And it. And then now I'm in this period of, like, bringing in new. Like, new. A new operating system. Like, who is Matt? Who does he want to be in this world? And now I'm in this period, which is why it's the year of courage for me, because I'm now having to show the world this new me, which is very scary, right, because I. I hid this me for the longest period of time because I was terrified of whatever rejection or abandonment or all the things. And now I'm bypassing all those defense mechanisms, going straight into. Into this. So, like, you know, this new version of me is. Is very. Feeling very vulnerable and very exposed because, yeah, he's not used to it. So
• 41:12
  Speaker A: I just want to interject first.
• 41:14
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 41:14
  Speaker A: Like what you've just said. I think a lot of people listening can understand it with like, coming out, especially people who came out later in life. That's exactly what they would have felt. I didn't come out later in life. But, like, I mean, I still. That's what I felt is like, I am this one thing over here. And now I need to change the operating system because now I'm a gay person and that's a whole different world. And that's where a lot of the fear comes from with people coming out that they're going to have to change their operating system. They're no longer straight bro dude over here. They're like gay bro dude over here. And like, how do they integrate that into their everyday life?
• 41:53
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 41:54
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 41:55
  Speaker B: That's a great way to frame it. And you know, I wrote down in. In for question four. I'll read it now because it's fitting. But I said transform by welcoming new energy, not trying to move beyond old energy. So welcome new energy in versus trying to rid yourself of old energy. The operating system is a good example because my new operating system, allowing that in is transforming my old operating system. I didn't take the old operating system. Chuck it out of me and then. Right. So. But there is that transitional period where this. It feels like you're kind of not. You don't have something fully to grab onto. And it felt like my. My sense of self went from very certain to very uncertain. And that is not a good feeling for me. Like, I. I don't like uncertainty. It brings up all my shit. Right. So I've been having to sit with uncertainty in such a big way, and that's been a huge transformative agent for me, is just uncertainty itself.
• 42:47
  Speaker C: Right.
• 42:48
  Speaker B: And. And putting myself out there throughout this whole process, like, I even. I get a lot. A lot of nerves before doing these episodes and more. So just in the last few months, it's been like. It's felt really almost like crippling to a certain degree because I'm like. There's a part of me that it's like I'm changing and I'm not quite sure. Like, I feel like my. My sense of self is so open right now that I'm not quite sure who I am. Do you know what I mean? I don't know if you've ever experienced.
• 43:19
  Speaker A: You're open to the ideas and you're just like, I don't know which one. Like, throwing spaghetti at the wall. I Don't know which one's gonna stick, but I'm just gonna try.
• 43:25
  Speaker B: Yeah. And you, you used a good word earlier. Is talking about your year of fear, which is experimentation. And that's where I'm at. Like, I'm experimenting with my sense of self and who I want to be, and I'm overriding fear. But it's also really terrifying because when you override fear and you put yourself in the fire, well, guess what? I'm not using all my defense mechanisms that I was using before. So I'm like, in this raw energy, and I feel like I'm being burned by the fire, but yet I have this strong capacity to tolerate it or something. Like, it's. I don't know, it's very weird. I'm in a very weird energy the last couple months.
• 44:02
  Speaker C: But.
• 44:03
  Speaker A: But it all makes sense because, like, think about, like, you know, operating systems. When you update your computer, people fudgeing bitch and moan and complain when it's a big, major update, because I don't fucking know where anything is anymore. They change this, they move it over here. And like, that's the same with life. When you're upgrading your system and switching parts of who you are, that's going to happen. You're like, I don't know where this piece isn't anymore. I'm going to have to relearn this. And that's why there's always such an uproar when there's new updates. Because people like, I don't know. And it's like, that's the point. You need to learn and you need to grow. But you can only do that if you don't know. You can only grow if you don't know.
• 44:39
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It requires a lot of vulnerability. That's what I'm noticing. It's like a whole new layer of vulnerability. I thought I understood vulnerability, but I'm. I'm learning another layer of it. And I'm like, this one's big.
• 44:53
  Speaker C: So that's the whole part of the future self, right? Like, the future is unknown. So you have to embrace the unknown. If you want to get to some point in the future. If you want to just keep living your same old, same old life, that's fine. That's your choice. But. But it's not going to require much of you, and it's just going to be the same old thing on repeat.
• 45:08
  Speaker B: Totally.
• 45:08
  Speaker A: And that's the cushiness you were talking about, Michael.
• 45:11
  Speaker C: Exactly.
• 45:11
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you keep revisiting the same old Patterns of suffering. That's what I was doing. And I'm like, it got to the point, and that was my rock bottom. I'm tired of suffering through the same. And I'm like, I'm done. I'm. I'm exiting the loop, and it's going to be terrifying, but I'm going to do it right. And I'm creating a new loop. So, yeah, we'll see what comes of that. Anyway, that's all I got to say on. On question two. So did you guys have anything else on question two?
• 45:40
  Speaker A: No, I'm sure. More.
• 45:41
  Speaker C: Okay.
• 45:42
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 45:42
  Speaker C: Okay.
• 45:43
  Speaker B: Okay. Okay. So question three is, how have you gone about reinventing yourself?
• 45:50
  Speaker A: I love this one. Yeah, I love this one. This one's really exciting because I actually have, like, a lot of, like, things I do. So every. Not every new year, but pretty consistently from, like, a long time ago. I remember my friend Jade, she told me one year, she's like, oh, through. I hate going out on New Year's. I like to, like, sit at home and meditate through the new year from, like, 1150 to, like, 1210. And she's like. And then I write out before that, I write out all my gratitude, things that I'm grateful for that have happened in the past year, in the past year go into the meditation, and then out of the meditation, I write all of the new things that I'm looking forward to in this new year. So it's like a death and a rebirth. And I was like, that is so cool. And so I started doing that. I've probably done it maybe five or six times now, and I notice a difference in my life every year I do it versus every year I don't do it. And so I. I don't remember if I did it this past year. I did it this year that just, like, New Year's that just happened, but, like, the year before, I hadn't. And so that's, like, one thing I love to do is, like, I know people like to go out and party and all this other stuff, but for me, it's like this rebirthing period. And, like, I can just, like, really just soak up all that energy from, like, everybody celebrating and fireworks and everything and just kind of pull that good energy in and then, like, project that into the future of awesomeness. So that's one way. And that goes along the lines of, like, journaling. Of, like, journaling, like, what your hopes and dreams are for the year and the things you want to achieve and all that kind of stuff. Other ways that you can reinvent yourself is like, I like to take on James Clear's advice on this is that shift and change doesn't. It's not just like this big boom all at once kind of a thing. It's like little by little, 1% at a time. And so for me, that looks like things like if you take a walk every day, take different routes, or if you take a regular route, just take a different route. Go on an adventure that day and be like, I don't know where I'm going, because your brain likes to go on the defaults. And I used to do this when I was walking during the pandemic, and I took this route all the time. And then I started taking different routes because I was like, I need to switch things up. Like, I need to reinvent. And something even that little can give you that energy, that little burst of like, oh, this is different. But not different enough that it's scary or not different enough that your brain has to use too much Power hour because we have lazy brains that like to do repetitive things because it keeps it, quote, unquote, safe. Trying different foods. You can try different food that you normally don't do. Like, switch it up. I just signed up for. What is it, the food delivery? Because, like, I would always go to the grocery store and get the same thing and get the same thing and same thing, same thing. And so I signed up for one of these food delivery things, and I just tried it out. I'm like, you know what? Let's give it a couple weeks. It's got big discounts at the beginning, so if I don't like it, then I'll cancel later. But I'm like, let's try something different. Let's see if this makes my life better and improves it or takes it away. And if it's in the budget and, like, calculate the budget without getting this, or calculate the budget with groceries and, like, how it all comes together and just try something different that way or do something. Something you'd normally not do to see what happens. So this is going on my year of fear, and I call it the year of year because I'm like, tackling fears that I have in my life because I'm really at pretending that I don't want to do the thing because I just don't want to do it. But really behind the door is fear, is like, I'm fearful because I don't know the outcome or I don't know this and I don't know that. And so even Though I'm an introvert and I like being introverted. Even things like being invited to a party, the fear of not knowing that exact group of people or it's not my normal group or something like that. I'd like, be like, oh, no, that's fine. Like, I'm gonna have a quiet night in myself, like, self love. But behind the scenes, it's really the fear of, like, oh, you know, what if I, you know, this, that or the other and just kind of see what happens. So doing stuff like that, these are all ways and little ways that you can go about reinventing yourself. And I like to think of myself as a scientist and, like, get really curious about it because I'm not just going to go and do these things. I need to put, like, the scientific hat on, Be like, let's do science experiments and get curious about these kinds of things. I play in a dodgeball league, and my first year I had to sign up for that. That was reinventing myself and the fear because I'm not a sporty person, I'm not an athletic person. But that's also stuff I tell myself. And now I'm changing the story on that because I've done it for a few years. I'm like, I love doing this. Maybe I want to do other sporty things because I've gotten over that hump of that fear and I'm now more curious about what the possibilities are. Or even, like, going to the gym. I need to start changing my story around that because I've built up these beliefs and these stories to make myself feel better about not going because I didn't like it. And I now need to switch that and tell myself the story of, like, maybe I am a gym bro. And that's not a bad thing because I need to start shifting in order to be able to go, to put myself into the energy of going. Because if the story I keep telling myself is, I don't like the gym, but I have to go, I'm not going to go. But if I now switch and tell my story going, you know, I really do enjoy, like, going to the gym. These are the reasons I like going. And start looking for the reasons that I like to. It'll be able to create that habit. But it's little by little by little that it needs to be built in. But all of these things are ways that you can reinvent yourself in little ways and start just like, doing science experiments. Because that's the only way I've been able to do it is just do it little at a time. Science experiments and like just kind of keep pushing your bubble of comfort slowly but surely further out and out and out. What about you guys? I'm curious.
• 51:45
  Speaker C: Yeah, that's. I love the idea of the experiment. Shout out to all the gym bros. I'm a gym bro. I guess I love it. But I did it in very much the same way. Just as an aside, I used to hate it. I used to have to go for like, I have to go because this is what people do. And I've completely shifted it very much in the same way. So, yeah, I love this, this track here on. I love looking at things as science experiments. Kind of takes the drama out of it. So. Yeah, really good. Okay. So how have you gone about reinventing yourself? Well, I'm going to answer this since it is relatively in my recent past, you know, as I was saying earlier, this reinvention of me from corporate employee to, you know, entrepreneur, Successful entrepreneur. So I think for me, it was very much intentional. So there's two ways you can reinvent yourself. One is unintentional. Kind of just happens. Life happens to you. Next thing you know, 10 years later, you're a different person. So for me, I think of, you know, my gay identity. I was a shy, quiet little boy in my suburb when I was growing up. And then, you know, 10 years after being in Toronto, not even like five years after being in, living in downtown Toronto, I was very unapologetically gay, out, proud, sexually liberated, like, you know, litter bomb of sex and fun things, which is great. But that happened very unintentionally. That was just a result of my. My surroundings and all that stuff. I didn't mean for that to happen. It just kind of happened. What I'm talking about here, though, is the very intentional. When I lost my job, I had a very clear decision to make. I could continue going down this. This corporate world, which I had already been in for, you know, 15 years or so. I had lots of contacts, built up all that good stuff. Or I could do something different. I could rebuild my life from the ground up. It was scary. Not the wise choice by any means. Everyone was like, why would you do that? That's a terrible idea. You already have this, and this is so safe. And what about your house? What about your market? All of the what ifs, right? So obviously I made the choice to not go back into the corporate world and to try to forge my own path as an entrepreneur. It was a clean slate, literally. Brand new page for me. So this was Very intentional. I took some time off. I didn't go back to work. I didn't start my business right away. I took probably about six months to just figure out for what I wanted to do. I did my coaching certification in that time. And yeah, I rebuilt my life from the ground up. And I. It worked. I'm a very different, very, very different person then than I am now. I have a completely new mindset, new habits, new achievements, and very importantly for me, a new lifestyle, which is what I wanted. I am literally living the life now that I designed for myself in 2019. And that blows my mind. There is something so satisfying about that, and I consider that my reinvention. This is my reinvention. I'm living it now. That's not to say. When I say life by design, that sounds very nice. But that's not to say that there weren't wrenches in the plan. I was not expecting Covid. That was a wrench in my plan. I was not expecting to be in a relationship. I was in my mind, in my future self mind. At that point. I was just going to be single forever, which, happily single forever. Not in like a negative way, but just like, yeah, I don't need a boyfriend. I'm just going to be single and have fun for my whole life. That was my thinking. And I wasn't expecting the gmb. I wasn't expecting the gay men's brotherhood. I wasn't expecting you guys. I wasn't expecting this. This was not in my business plan. But here we are. So all of that stuff happened and. And you have to like. So when you do a life by design, of course things are going to happen that you don't expect, and that's part of it. I think that that's why I like that element of experimentation that you talked about, Callan, because it kind of goes into that too. A wrench gets thrown in. That doesn't mean you quit. It just means, okay, here's a wrench. How are we gonna. How are we gonna deal with it? So that's really, really useful, I think. But this reinvention, it's easy to look at it now and say, yay, it was worth it and I did it and I made it. But let me tell you, it was very hard. It was probably in terms of the most challenging thing I've had to do. Probably right up there, top three of my life. Because I had to literally imagine and believe things about myself that I had never imagined or believed before. I never saw myself as an entrepreneur. I Never believed I could market myself, put myself out there, you know, ask people to pay me to coach them. Like, what? I'm not that guy. Like, that's sticky. Sticky. I'm not, I'm not that. But I had to completely redo my entire self concept. I also have to give up, you know, those excuses, like I don't know how and someone else will do it for me. Like we talked about earlier, right? Like I was like, no, no, this is you, Michael. This is your job. Not in the corporate world. I can be like, oh, that's that department or accounting will take care of that, or my boss will take care of that. No, it's all me. So that's really hard. And that brought up a lot of my fears. Fears of being seen, which I talk about. Fears of make, mistake, judgment, failure are the common ones that we have. And then, you know, like we just talked about the last question. Letting go of those old comforts, letting go of that comfortable, cushy lifestyle. So that was, was really hard and I'm happy I did it and it was worth it. And it's not to say that it was easy, but I want to talk a little bit about how, because you all know I love a good step by step process. And it's so much easier, by the way, to tell you the step by step process after having done it. If I wrote it the step by step process before, it would look very, very different. And the only reason I can do this now so clearly is because I've kind of already done there. I'm looking at it in retrospect. Okay, so the first thing is, yes, having the courage to let go of anything that isn't working. Kind of like we talked about letting go, like looking at your life, what's working, keep it. What's not working, that's gotta go. And then for me, I very intentionally decided the future I wanted to create. I was wet. I was in my mid-30s at that point, so I kind of knew, I knew myself really well. I was in a good space. I had done a lot of self work at that time. So I was able to really look at myself and say, okay, what do I want to do here? So for me that was. I wanted to be independent, I wanted to be autonomous. I want to follow my own path for better or for worse. I wanted to be unencumbered. After all these years in the corporate world, I wanted to just make my own decisions, work from wherever I want. I really like needed this, like, get off me. Like this ripping of the chains off me energy at that time. So that's what I wanted. And I also wanted to utilize my natural skills and talents, which I felt were being unutilized in the corporate world. And I wanted to make a direct impact on people's lives and feel really good about the contribution I was making. Guess what? I'm doing all those things. That's ding, ding, ding. Check, check, check, check, check. Step three. So step one is letting go of stuff that isn't serving you. Step two is deciding what you want to create. Step three is taking. Sorry, taking responsibility. So here's the thing. People want freedom. I'm talking to everyone out there who resonates with my story so far, who want freedom. Listen, you want freedom, but few people are willing to take the responsibility that comes with having that freedom. Yeah, I wanted the freedom, but it was scary. I was like, oh, my God, that means I have to do this, and I have to do this. I have to own all of the stuff that I was kind of delegating responsibility to other people. So that was a hard part. That was actually probably one of the scariest parts is owning my decisions. For better, for worse, owning my life, owning the successes and owning the fails just as much because they're all mine. No blaming. No blaming going on here. And that helped me actually rediscover my power. That was it. That was where the empowerment came in. It was through the fear on the other side of that that I became empowered because I survived and I did it. I was like, I can do this. I just gotta own all this instead of giving it away. So step four is maybe an obvious one, but you gotta take the action, my friends. You gotta show up each day and do it. You gotta show up and learn. I had to show up and do my coaching certification. I had to show up and do the studying and doing my practice hours and learning how to build a business. I had to show up and put myself out there even when I had, like, nobody looking at me or watching me or nobody knew who I was, still show up and do it. Just fucking do it. And the final step is my favorite one that I talk about often is have my own back. So no matter what, be kind to myself throughout. You know, when. When you're going back to the old, remember, your brain wants to go back to the old, wants to stay comfortable, wants to do the same old thing. Gently bringing myself back not from shame, which is very easy for me to go back into shame, but gently be like, no, no, no, Michael, no, no. We're not going there, we're going this way and, and just having more fun with it. So those are my steps. Those are, that's my five step process for how I did it. Again, only I can only say that because I'm looking back and you might think the best part of this all is that I did it. But honestly, the best part of it now is now that I have done it in my own way, helping other people do that in their own lives. And I think that is so sad. It's like the most satisfying part of my work is watching other people go through the same, not necessarily the exact same story, but their own, their own reinvention, their own life by design, whatever they want. We, we start with the same process. Where do you want to go? And then once they start doing it and like, you know, me being there as the guide or the coach, like to see that transformation happen. And I know you guys would agree it's, it's so satisfying and so beautiful. So I'll leave it with this. For anyone out there who feels even slightly inspired by this, consider the fact that there are things about you that you don't even know about yourself. That part blows my mind too. Like if old previous Michael could see me here today for being on a podcast, like what? I would never do that. And just doing all the things I'm doing, it would blow his mind. And I think that's, that's the most exciting part. So that's in a big, big nutshell. My, my Michael's reinvention story.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker B: I love it. I absolutely love it. And it's been beautiful to watch both of you guys reinvent yourselves and transform.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker C: Yeah. You guys were from the, some sort of the middle area.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker C: When you guys came into my life.
• 1:01:55
  Speaker B: Yeah, totally. Yeah. And it's funny, I wanted to respond to what you said, Colin, about being a gym bro. I worked as a personal trainer for I guess, three years as a kind of a detour to take a break from counseling. And believe it or not, the hardest part about being a personal trainer was changing the way people perceive themselves as a non gym goer. Like, and the gyms are very intimidating for like a lot of people. Right. So they're, when they go into these spaces, they're comparing themselves and they're like, oh, I see him as a gym bro, but I'm not. And then they just give up. Up. Right. So to push through that is huge. And I'm actually going through the opposite. I'm deconditioning the gym bro mentality. Because I over identified with it and I haven't gone to the gym for three years.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker A: So anyway, you can take my energy and I'll take yours. We'll do energy. Yeah, Meditation energy of like, okay, let's swap this energy.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. But that's a perfect example of self perception. Right? Like we, when we stop identifying with the stories and thoughts of who we are, we're, we're expansive, we're infinite, infinite beings. We can be whatever the we want to be.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker A: Right.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker B: That's the beauty of it.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker A: I'd say over identifying because I think it's good to identify to a degree, but not, not like balls deep over identifying, like this is all of me.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker B: Totally, totally. Well, and limiting yourself to your thought forms. Right? Like we're more than our thoughts, we're energy. We have emotion, like. Right. And if we're just operating in the mental domain of who we are, like it's going to be very limiting. So which was me, like I'm, I'm a testament of what happens when you embody and you learn how to connect with your emotional world, your energetic world, your ethereal world. All these worlds are there waiting for us to tap into them. But most human beings are conditioned just to operate within their, their thoughts. So. Okay, I got a long list here, so I want to get at it. So how have I gone about reinventing myself? Well, I think the first one would be for a big reinvention was to change my environment. Because I am such a product of my environment that when I'm operating in routine, I love routine. And what I needed to do is I needed to pack up my stuff, put it in storage and I moved to Asia and I abandoned my routine. So what does that force me to do? Well, it forces me to question everything about myself. My routines, my mental patterns, my habits, all of that was thrown off kilter. So I was forced into giving myself space to transform.
• 1:04:25
  Speaker C: Right.
• 1:04:25
  Speaker B: I think when I, if I'm staying in my, my comfort zone and I'm operating within these routines, I'm going to stay stuck in the psychology of those routines as well. So I had to kind of throw a stick in the spoke and that was a big part of my, of starting my transformation. Just changing my environment was, was huge. This, there's this big theme kind of in my life in the last few years, which is non conformity. I've spoken about it on, on previous episodes. Episode. So I'm in an energy of challenging social conventions and institutions and I, I don't, I, I won't take on things that aren't in alignment to me within, within society. I just won't, I refuse it. And that's been a huge way of me venting myself from a place of authenticity and not buying into. I'm going to reinvent myself, right, so everyone else will love me better. That was, that's. If that's the motivation of reinventing yourself, it's not going to be a healthy reinvention, right. It's going to feed into the people pleasing the inauthenticity and it's just reinforcing the very part of us that is inspired to reinvent ourselves in the first place. So that's been a big part of it. So that's taught me how to stop defining myself based on how other people respond to me and more just on what I want, what I desire, what's good for me. Which is a scary space. It was a scary space for me because I think when, when you are more on Divergent, you're going, you're diverging from, from the direction everyone else is going. You're getting reflected back to you all the parts like, and people, a lot of human beings, whether we're conscious of it or not, we use shame to try and control other people's behaviors. So if you see somebody going in a direction that you don't feel comfortable or safe to go, you'll shame them to try and not get them to go that direction because it brings up too much of your own, right? So I've had, I've dealt with that. I've had people hurling unconscious shame at me, trying to get me not to be the powerful, you know, like, self expressive person that I am. And I've had to really move through that, right? It's either hold the shield up and not be authentic or be authentic and let the be hurled at you and just develop a tolerance to it. And that's what I've kind of done. So that's really helped me a lot. I, I wrote this one down. So set the intention because I'm, I'm learning that intention is so powerful and it's like, what do I want? What do I want out of this? Right? You know, like you said, Michael, you have, you've built the, the, you're living the life that you designed. Well, you had to come up with a design, at least like an outline of what you wanted your life to look like, right? So it's like a vision board or something where it's like, yes, this is what I want to embody, right? And for me, that's a big part of it. And I will say an asterisk to that is yes, we set the intention, but from my belief system, I'm 50% of, of. Of bringing, of giving birth to something new, right? The other 50 is the universe and the people around me. If I'm coming at it from a humbled place, other people have an influence over me. And the universe is always bringing people and experiences into my life to help bring things into fruition, right? You two are a perfect example. I came up with a vision, I brought it into form, and then you two showed up into my life and we started doing this together, right? Like the universe threw a wrench into my life, but the wrench had a purpose to kind of, you know, talk a bit. What, what Michael was saying, it was, it's just a way to kind of slow me down and say, wait a minute, I have a different path for you and I want you to try it and see if you like it.
• 1:08:01
  Speaker A: Right?
• 1:08:01
  Speaker B: And if a big part of my transformation was letting go of my ego identification with this is how I need it to be, if it doesn't work out like this, then it's not successful. It's not true, right? Because I'm keeping myself open to the universe, transforming me and me doing the work as well. So I said that because I think it's important to set the intention and then have your hands in the pot and kind of doing your action oriented, masculine energy stuff and then take your hands out of the pot, let the universe, you know, take over for a bit and you just chill and let some of this new energy integrate, right? So I've had to learn this balance of, of I'm not in total control of every outcome in my life, right. There's other forces at play and I have to surrender and let go and let those forces transform aspects of, of my life as well. So that's been a massive humble pie to eat, which has been delicious. Taking risks. So this has been a big, big one for me because I've realized in the last while that I've only really put myself in situations majority of the time where I know I would be successful. So I've wanted to try new things. Singing is a good example. I've always wanted to sing and sing in front of people, but I was very terrified to do it. And you know, there's been a lot of these little things in my life that I've not done and I've, I've. Like you said, Callan, like you Know, putting up the walls of, like, oh, I don't really want to hang out with those friends, like, or whatever, like, that sort of thing. I've done a lot of that in my life, too. I've minimized the importance of something to me as a way to mitigate not having to go into the fear of it. So taking risks for me has been. It's been challenging, but it's been where a lot of my transformation has come from. Because when I put myself in unfamiliar environment, I have to. I'm developing resilience, right? And the resilience is what puts me into new situations and allows me to continue to transform. So that's. I think that's the growth mindset. And I've been making peace with being average or not good at something, right? Because if I'm always putting myself in situations where I'm great, well, what about the mat? That isn't great at certain things. He needs to be loved. He needs attention, too. So I've been like, this singing thing is really bringing up a lot of my. My fears around, you know, having to be perfect, not wanting to make mistakes. Right? So I'm like. I'm in my sessions with this woman. I'm, like, meeting a ton of shame. Like, it's just, like, leaving my body because I'm like, if I make a mistake, it's like this hot wash comes over me, and I feel like, oh, my God, like, so uncomfortable. But she knows. I told her, like, this is what I'm moving through. This is a big fear of mine. So she's able to be with me in that discharge of this energy, and it's really, really helping me. And again, I'll use the word humility, because when I'm realizing that I am fallible and I make mistakes and I'm not perfect at everything, there's this. I'm meeting this energy of humility, and the humility is giving me the space to move into the new version of myself. It's this. It's what creates the space for me, because otherwise, I'm applying so much pressure and perfectionism and. And I think the humility is me giving myself compassion and letting myself kind of be. Be. Just be. Yeah, I think that's. That's pretty much all I had here on my jumbo list. But any thoughts anybody want to share before we move on to our last question?
• 1:11:49
  Speaker A: I feel like this is, like, one of my favorite podcasts of all time.
• 1:11:53
  Speaker B: Yeah, it's a good
• 1:11:56
  Speaker A: episode.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker C: Yeah. This might be one of those ones where People are going to listen to it and save it and go back again and again and again. So, yeah, that's good.
• 1:12:03
  Speaker A: Yeah, big time. I. I do want to say something, actually. When you were talking, Matt, I wrote this down. I said, the crabs in the bucket when you grow too big. And I've. I've experienced that. And it. It made me feel so icky. Because, of course, coming from our compassionate point of view arts, like, I'm trying to understand this person, like, why. Why are they being so mean? Why are they saying these awful things, like, am I really like that? Am I truly? Is their perception of me truer than my perception of myself? Because you have to take the outside sources, you know, with a grain of salt and go, okay, well, there has to be some sort of truth in there because, like. Like, they're experiencing that. But that's the crabs in the bucket mentality. You're getting too big for your britches. I need to pull you down because you're making me feel bad about myself. And I'm going to use all these awful things to try and make you believe it, like, oh, you have more privilege than me here, or, oh, you have more over here, or, oh, your life looks better over here. So I'm going to make all these assumptions and point at you. And it's the crabs in the bucket mentality when they're like, you're getting too big. And if you go somewhere without me, I have to look. Look at myself. And we experience this a lot in friendships especially, or family, when you are trying to reinvent yourself or you are trying to grow. And they don't like it because you're bringing up that stuff because they're not doing it and they don't want to do it. And the best way for them to do that is to bring you back down at their level and go, okay, they came back down. Like, I don't have to work for it.
• 1:13:28
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:13:29
  Speaker A: So just watch out for that.
• 1:13:31
  Speaker B: That's so well said. And, you know, I processed something with my therapist, I think it was a month ago, around this exact topic. And I. Because the singing is bringing this up in me and putting myself out there and experiencing success in my business is that I noticed that it's bringing up discomfort for people around me. And I've experienced this a lot in my life where people project onto me their own jealousy or envy. And it's. It's. They got to me because I started to dim my light. I wouldn't ex. I wouldn't allow myself to be big and bright and beautiful and, and I wouldn't share my successes with people. I kept it very contained because I didn't want to make people uncomfortable. And the, the realization was I had to keep myself small because I had a perception that if I let myself get big and bright that I will be abandoned because I experienced that throughout my life that it's like people's jealousy and envy created them not wanting to be around me. So if I grow and become big, I lose connection. Right. So I've kept myself small to maintain connection. Well, not anymore. I'm stop. I'm discontinuing doing that, which again is, you know, feeding into the non conformity. It's like, I don't want to play in that playground anymore. I'm done with that paradigm. Like I want to be, I want to be elevated and, and let my, myself shine. And I want to be inspiration for people to do the same thing. And I want to hold my hand out and show them this is how I did it. Like, come on, let's everybody get on, get out of here. Right. And so it's, it's a bit of a shift in mentality and it's still quite new for me. But yeah, it's, it brings up a lot of, a lot of. Yeah, I wish we could all just let go of that. You know what I mean? And we could all just be. And I will say too, like, I have that with people too. Sometimes I get jealous of people's success and. Right. We all do it to a certain degree. So anyway, it's good, it's good to be conscious of it. All right, so how do you perceive yourself now and how much of that perception comes from how others respond to you?
• 1:15:34
  Speaker A: This is an interesting one. I perceive myself now is so different because I've gone through so many, so many reinventions because I didn't even think about it. When you're talking about your travels, Matt, I'm like, oh yeah, I've done that like a hundred times. Like I, I moved to Dubai. I lived in the Middle east for five years. I lived in London in the UK for a couple of years. I lived in New York for a little while. Like, like, I'm from Vancouver, I grew up there, but I also, I live in Toronto now. There's so many times that I've had to, quote, unquote, reinvent myself or given myself that space to reinvent myself. And that was kind of one of the biggest things I did when I was younger is the first time when I like really Came out and all that. I came out at 20 and I moved to the UK, basically, like, most of my friends had known for a little while, but I told my mom, and three weeks later, I moved to the UK for a year. So it's just like, hey, bye. And that really allowed me to reinvent myself. And, like, all these different experiences I've had have given me different perceptions that I've been able to then accumulate and go, oh, I can do this or, oh, I can do that. Like, in the uk, it was embracing my gay, like, just being like, I'm so gay, and I can be super gay here without the crabs in the bucket trying to bring me down, because nobody knew who I was. So it was a fresh start. So there was no crabs to pull down because they were like, oh, this is. This must be who you are, because that's who you're showing us. So that was a very interesting experience, but freeing experience as well. Now I perceive myself maybe I'm a little bit cynical. I think I'm a little bit more cynical that I used to be coming in, you know, mid. Oh, I'm, you know, turning 36, coming up here soon. So it's like I'm shifting into a different way of being and coming out of like, a. Okay, I've done a lot of the learning. Now it's acting, now it's action, but, like, targeted action and moving into the things that I want to do, like gym bro. Like, I don't want to be, quote, unquote, a gym bro, but I want to be able to be that person who can go to the gym and feel confident and comfortable there. And, like, that's the kind of stuff that I want to do. That's the kind of stuff that I want to have. And that's how I want to perceive myself, that I can do those things. Whereas I think I've told myself a story for a little bit too long, and I need to stop telling myself that story now. Which is why, you know, 2023 is the year of fear. I think, in regards to, like, going to the gym, that the reasons I'm doing it, I'm confident in because it's me, it's my body. I have, you know, body issues, like physical medical issues that have stopped me from doing a lot of things. And even though that not stopped, that's still a true thing for me. I'm not gonna let it stop me from doing these things that I want to do, because I'm like, if this is going to be with me, for life, I need to learn how to just deal with it. And like, I've dealt with it, but now I need to learn how to like fully live with it. And so that's the kinds of things that I'm integrating into my, you know, life and all the things that are happening now and people are, you know, the crabs in the bucket happened within this last year. Last year, year and a bit. So that perception did come into me being like, oh, is this new person I'm moving into, is this really me or is this just this one experience this person had of me? But I think as an entrepreneur, I don't get as much interaction with a lot of the outside world as somebody in corporate. So a lot of my own stuff is my own inner world. It's not other people's perceptions. But I also take into account like, like, if I wouldn't take dating advice from this person and take it seriously, I'm not going to take other advice from this person. Like get that kind of a thing like you and like you two, I'll take serious your perceptions of me because you know me truthfully. And those people in my life, those top five, I can't remember what episode we did, we like did the top five people, your top five people.
• 1:19:30
  Speaker C: Inner circle.
• 1:19:31
  Speaker A: Inner circle? Yeah, inner circle. And like those are the people's perceptions that I focus on accepting and believing. All the other ones and the crabs in the bucket that are kind of throwing stuff at you, I always take with a grain of salt. Even though sometimes they hit harder and they hurt more. I focus on those core people and like, what do they truly believe about me? Because they've known me the longest, so they know the truest self of me or the truest part of me. Those are the perceptions that I allow to come into my circle. And we go, okay, this person thinks I'm an amazing person on so many other levels and I've known them for so long, it must be true because we've built that. And so listeners out there focus on that and the people that you trust to be those people. And these are the people who are like constantly giving and taking. They're like, it's the reciprocal circle of like, you talk, they listen, then they talk, you listen. And like it's a full on giving and a taking and everybody is fulfilled. It's not the people who are constantly the center of attention in your life or you know, you're rolling your eyes out or you're like, oh, you're my best friend, but you're Also kind of a bitch. Like, not those people. You want to make sure that people are emotionally mature people who can also support you on your journey. Those are the perceptions you need to let in. And so for me, I try and keep it like 50, 50. I don't, but I try.
• 1:20:58
  Speaker C: It's the trying that counts.
• 1:20:59
  Speaker A: It's the strang that counts. Yeah, exactly. But what about you? You guys? Michael.
• 1:21:04
  Speaker C: Yeah. How do you perceive yourself now? I'll use your onion analogy. I think that as. As I grow, there's more layers of the onion. And, you know, I. I love, I love it. It, I love it. I think I. It's the same future, past, present self that I talked about in the beginning. I still use that. I still honor my past self, work towards becoming the man I want to be, and, you know, doing both of those in the present moment, but, you know, really understanding that there are many, many sides of me, many facets of this multi dimensional being that is Michael. There's my serious stoic, kind of philosophical side, which often comes up here on the podcast, but there's very much a mischievous side with a knack for trouble that only certain people get to see. There's a very deeply spiritual side of me and there's a sentimental side of me, too, and many, many, many, many others. So I think, you know, I perceive myself in lots of different ways, and I think that's, that's the fun of it and that's the beauty of this human life that we all get to have is we. We get to perceive ourselves however we want. It's fluid and it's always changing if you want it to be. So I don't know if that answers the question, but that's how I'm going to answer it. And then how much of that perception comes from how others respond to me? I would say, like what Callan said, like, definitely the people that matter. I put a high value on what they have to say and their perception of me. Luckily, I've got people in my life who will give it to me straight, but, you know, like some tough love with kindness and compassion. You all know who you are. I've got family that keeps me grounded, remind me of my roots, where I came from, which is great, keeps me humble. I got a partner, so there are people out there who I look to. But then there's an element of not giving too much of that away to people whose opinions maybe I don't want to give as much value to. But yeah, there's a fine line, I think Alan you said it really well. So I'll leave it there. And actually just want to say one totally off topic thing. Going back to the gym bros. I was. I'm laughing every time we talk about this because there is a one person I know in particular. LJ is his name. He works out at the gym that I go to and every time we're there at the same time, he like runs over to me and shows me his phone and he's listening to this podcast. Oh yeah. So I know that he's gonna be like listening to this one day and like laughing. So just a little shout out to our friend lj.
• 1:23:35
  Speaker A: Oh, I love that hashtag.
• 1:23:42
  Speaker B: That's amazing. Yeah, I have similar answers to you guys. And it's funny, Michael, you and I are so similar that way. I have all those sides to me.
• 1:23:51
  Speaker A: Geminis.
• 1:23:54
  Speaker B: That's one of my words. I just came up with words and dualistic is one of them. Like I can be very sweet and I can be very not sweet. Like I have, I have, have. And that's for me, is I have an integrated nature. So I can be dark and I can be light. I can be both. And I think I spiritually bypassed and I created a spiritual ego for a lot of my spiritual path, which was be love and light and only stay anchored in that energy. And I bypassed my darkness and I just, yeah, like I've learned to bring my darkness to the table and be with this person because we all have it as human beings, right? We all get jealous, we all get envious, we all get fear, shame, all of that. And that is the darkness of who I am. And I've learned to love that part of me. Right? So I just wrote down some words here. I wrote down, I see myself as a non conformist, a reformer of the planetary energy. I think that that's my purpose of being on this planet. I really do. I think my soul came onto this planet to have a large energy and to transform what isn't working on this planet. And there's a lot of not working on this planet. And as an empath and, and a light worker, I see myself as, you know, being a big part of reforming what's not working on the planet so we can live in more, more peace and love. And so I challenge the status quo constantly. That's a big part of who I am. I have a very defiant nature. I don't. That's why I'm an entrepreneur. I don't take orders well from people. And I. That showed up in all my Career. Like when I worked for the government, I worked different, different positions and yeah, I, I couldn't do it. I. So I was like, you know what? I've got to move into my own profession because, and have my own business which has its pros and cons but at least I get to call the shots in that respect. So authentic. I see myself as authentic. So my inside matches my outside. I'm congruent. I don't really hold back a lot of who I am at least anymore. I'm an educator. I love to educate and share my thoughts and my wisdom with people. I see myself as wise and intelligent. I think I've accumulated a lot of emotional intelligence over the course of my life and I'm here to share it. And I'm open hearted and kind. I care deeply about people and humanity. I'm stubborn. I'm dualistic, creative, masculine and feminine. And this has been the biggest, biggest transformation for me. I had a very over identification with my masculine energy and very wounded feminine. And I've now got to a place where like even just the way I think about myself and like sexually and sensually and like, I don't know, it's just different. Like I just feel so different as a person when it comes to that domain. Like my feminine energy has been fully integrated in that space and it feels really good. Mystical. I love that word. I definitely see myself as a mystic. Hippie vibes. I definitely am like very on the hippie spectrum. I, you know, I'm all about natural stuff and you know, no chemicals in my body. That sort of energy. Sexual and sensual. I embrace both. I have an intensity about me. I get this reflected back to me all the time. People think I'm. I have an intense energy and I used to think I was too much and now I realize I'm like perfect. You know what I mean? Like I'm not going to hold back my intensity for people always changing. That's a big part of me. And introverted. So these are just some of the, the words that I use to describe myself. The list could go on and on, but those were at the top of my mind. And then to answer the second question, how much of that perception comes from how others respond to me? I'm learning less and less to it to be like that, but I almost kind of feel like I hit a bit of a ceiling because I don't think that we can let go of that fully. I've said that in previous episodes before. I think it's like I've just Learned to really prioritize me, my energy, how I'm showing up. I trust myself. I know myself. And, you know, so I don't. I don't outsource that to people consciously at least. So I. But I knew. I know there is still a part of me that it's like, if I'm doing something and people reflect to me that it's not good, like I'm human being, right? Like, it'll still. I'm still susceptible to shame. I'm still susceptible to these things. But I. I sometimes ask, I'm like, well, do I want to let this influence my behavior or do I want to push through the discomfort and. And rise above it? So who knows, right? Sometimes I will, sometimes I won't. So I asked myself the question, whose will do I want to serve? And for a lot of my life, it was other people's will. And now it's becoming my will. I want to serve my will. My wishes for myself become a priority over other people's. And then I will say, too, like, the through. For a lot of my life, I've, like, I've had this idea of like a mental audience. Like, oh, if I'm transforming or if I try this or if I do that, like, what are they going to think? Well, who's the they in your world? That's a really important question to ask. Is it your parents? Is it other gay men? Is it who.
• 1:29:05
  Speaker C: Who.
• 1:29:06
  Speaker B: Who's the they? Who's your audience that you're performing on this stage of life for? And, you know, it's good to understand why you put those people on a pedestal and why you do it. And it could be a good thing, right? It could be that, oh, because they're my people, they're in my tribe, they know me the best, and they're reflecting back to me, my most authentic self. But it could also be that you're putting people on pedestals that just. They're. They're egoic, serving. They're. They're there because they're. They're trying to serve who you think you need to be, not who you actually are. So. So I always want to really evaluate who my audience is and, and how much I'm letting their opinions of me influence how I show up in the world. So, yeah, just good awareness.
• 1:29:47
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 1:29:48
  Speaker B: This has been a long one. Any closing thoughts before we wrap up?
• 1:29:53
  Speaker C: I have one thing I want to add.
• 1:29:54
  Speaker B: Yeah, please do.
• 1:29:55
  Speaker C: Just for the. The guy or. Or woman out there who is listening to us and you're thinking, oh, well, it's easy for them to say. You know, they're so young, they're in their 30s. You know, reinvention can happen anytime. There's. You're never too old to reinvent yourself. You're never told to change. So I work with several clients in their 60s and even 70s, and I will say they are the ones that inspire me the most. Ditto.
• 1:30:21
  Speaker A: One of my first ever clients. She was in her 60s, and, like, just watching the change that she went through, I was like, yeah, girl, you get it.
• 1:30:29
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:30:31
  Speaker C: It's for anybody.
• 1:30:32
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:30:33
  Speaker B: It's never too late to reinvent yourself, right? And we're always doing it. We're like snakes. We're always shedding skin and accumulating. And sometimes our reinventions are smaller, sometimes they're bigger. But keeping an open mind and an open heart to transformation, I think is really important. Okay, well, we're going to wrap this one up. Thanks for sharing today, guys. This was a really, really beautiful episode. I love it, and I was grateful to hold that space and share that space with you guys. So for people that are not part of the community yet, come in and join us on Facebook, the Gay Men's Brotherhood. And yeah, reviews, please. Facebook or YouTube. YouTube. We love your comments. We love your reviews. And also on your favorite podcast platform, you can leave them there as well. All but, yeah, much love to everybody. Ciao for now.