Latest / Real Estate for Real Life / Episode 11 • From Dishonest Harmony to Honest Discomfort: The Leadership Shift That Changes Everything with Jess Riehl

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Episode 11 • From Dishonest Harmony to Honest Discomfort: The Leadership Shift That Changes Everything with Jess Riehl · Real Estate for Real Life

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On Real Estate for Real Life podcasts, we sit down with
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standout business leaders to unpack what's actually working.
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How they scale, lead teams, win clients and build businesses
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that last. We're your hosts.
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I'm Courtney Gauchman. And I'm Ryan Wilson, thanks for
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tuning in. We're back and we finally
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brought the Co host Ryan Wilson back with us.
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It's good to be back. Yeah, he's been on a hiatus a
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little bit, but he's back in action and we have another
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wonderful guest with us. We're excited that my old, old
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friend Jess, Real, owner of Riehl Consulting, is here with
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us today. Thanks for joining us, Jess.
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Thrilled to be here, thank you for having me.
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We are pumped to have you. Great.
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So Jess is a long time friend and I met Jess probably about 14
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years ago when she was working in sales at a disaster
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restoration company. So that is, that is how the
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journey, at least when I was a part of it, started.
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So that's where basically her life started.
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That is when she met Ryan. For you, I don't really remember
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much. Yeah, must.
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Have been boring. Very boring.
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SO that that really starts off everything.
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I think that that year, 14 years.
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Ago, it was when you really started living, yeah.
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Exactly. It's right.
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It's true. It's true.
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So, yeah, tell us a little bit about So obviously you're
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incredibly successful. You've had an unbelievable
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career path and you started in AC suite role very early on in
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your career and now you own your own business.
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For five years you've been open Riehl consulting.
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So tell us a little bit about that path, how you got to where
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you are now? What led you to the confidence
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to be able to open up your own company and kind of take on
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unique businesses and be able to give them some coaching?
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Yeah. OK.
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So where to start? Obviously when I met you, so I
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was working in a sales position at a business that did disaster
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restoration. So basically if a building had a
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fire or flood, this business would come and do the cleanup
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and then the rebuild. So who I was quote UN quote
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selling to was property management companies, commercial
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real estate, anybody that had a property that might have a loss,
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right? So all about building
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relationships, long sales cycle. I ended up becoming really close
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to the owner of the business because he was heavily involved
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in sales, but he wasn't my direct like I wasn't his direct
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report. So we were able to have a unique
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relationship in that sense. So we would go and meet with
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clients, do events together, all of that.
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Fast forward, I ended up getting into leadership on the sales
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side and ultimately joined the management team.
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So on the management team was when I first got to see the
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owner of the business in action on the operation side.
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And I remember after we in my first management meeting, we
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were walking to lunch. He's like, So what do you think?
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I'm like, everyone's so afraid of you.
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He's like, what do you mean? I'm like just, it feels like a
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lot of fear in that room, you know, And he was kind of taken
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back by it, but we had a great conversation.
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Fast forward, we ended up having a bunch of turnover at the
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general manager position. And so we had outside
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consultants, everyone trying to figure out kind of how to solve
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that problem. And the consultants told him
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that they basically thought I was the only person that could
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do the job because I was the only one that would tell him the
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truth. And so he came to me.
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He's like, So what do you think you want to take on this role?
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I was like, well, usually people don't stick around if they do
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that, so I don't know if I don't want to.
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And but we had a great conversation, kind of like how
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we would do it differently. So I took on role of COO at the
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business and for anyone in business, when the operations
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team hears that the head of sales is now going to run the
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whole business, there's been some concerns, right, because
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sales and OPS, there's always a healthy tension there.
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But it worked out really well because I think we we ringing
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and Yang a little bit right. And so his strengths and
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weaknesses were the opposite of mine.
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So the partnership worked, So. Go ahead.
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So you went into sales. So you went from sales, you're
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meeting with clients to then running the business with the
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owner of the company. What sort of things, or was it
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just innate in you that you had that skill of being able to
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connect with people and be honest with people?
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What sort of skills did you have to learn and what sort of skills
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did you naturally have to kind of step into that role?
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It's a great question and I, I looked at it as where I was
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selling to clients and external. It's now you have to sell
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internally, right? So now you are trying to build
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those relationships with the team and different leaders
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within the organization. And it's really just talking to
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people and and listening. I think there's so much value in
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curiosity, right? Like just being curious about
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why things work the way they do. And so when I first took on the
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role, I went and met with everybody at the, the company,
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no matter what the position and, and just ask them the same set
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of questions, right? Like, what do you like?
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What don't you like? What would you fix if you were
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in leadership? Like what is the thing that gets
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in your way the most? And we just learned so much from
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that and also learned that people that are in it have the
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answers, right? Like they're in it.
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And leadership is, is limited on the visibility that they have.
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And so if you don't go down and ask the questions, you don't get
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the information of what's really happening there.
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So we took that and implemented a bunch and just started the
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conversations and, and really put the owner in a position
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where he got to be. He was so brilliant and like he
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had such a clear vision and what would happen is like his
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intention was always really good, but the impact wouldn't
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really align with what he was after, right?
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And so that's where I would come in and, and you know, he'd give
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me the difficult feedback and be like, why aren't we doing this?
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Why isn't this happening? And I could communicate it in a
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way to get the results we want. Right.
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So obviously his delivery, he wasn't as tactful.
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You had the ability to do that. I also think what's really
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interesting is, I mean, there's a similarity here, right?
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Like I was in sales and now in operations.
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On the operation side of things, I can speak from personal
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experience that I think that's one of the most amazing gifts
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that you can bring to an organization is to actually
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understand the operations that support the sales team, right?
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Because your sales team is ultimately the team that's
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bringing in the numbers, bringing in the revenue.
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But if you don't understand the inner workings and you are truly
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OPS minded, you're going to really struggle with making
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operational systems that actually support the
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salespeople. So I think that that's one of
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the biggest gifts that you brought there.
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And I think another thing that's interesting too is early on in
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your career, you worked with consultants.
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Yep, which is now ironically exactly the direction you ended
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up going. So it's, it's kind of cool.
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And if it weren't for those consultants, you probably
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wouldn't have ended up in that CLL position just simply because
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of the fact that it is a. Totally, totally.
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And at that point, I think the consultant role is just it's a
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fresh of you, right? Like you hear things without the
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like the biases of what's happening within the business
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and you look at it from like what's best for this business,
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not what might make sense in terms of how the people feel
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that are in it every day and kind of blinded by that.
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But I think, you know, to your point about the sales and
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operations and, and bridging that gap is just like a really
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good example in any business where there's a rub, right?
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And if you don't deal with the rub, you can have a lot of
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issues. You can have the tension of
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sales is ask is over promising and we can't do this and they're
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not managing expectations of the clients.
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And then you have sales being like, you know, operations isn't
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delivering on the promise that we made and and the truth is
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somewhere in the middle, right? And if, if you it can go into a
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conversation with curiosity versus like I am right and I
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need to prove to you, right? Like if people went into
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conversations with this mindset of what can I learn instead of
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what can I prove? It shifts everything right.
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And so going into the sales team after I took on this role as
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COOI, remember doing this exercise with them because after
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I'd gathered feedback from operations, their operations was
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feeling like what we do this all the time and they get a loss and
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come in and they call us like it's an emergency, right?
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And there's no way to they, they don't trust us that we know what
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we're doing. And like, the intention of the
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salesperson isn't to make the OPS feel like they're doubting
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them. It's just their energy is high,
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right? They've been waiting.
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They've worked so hard to cultivate this relationship.
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They've worked so hard to get the phone to ring.
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So when it does, they have this emotion, right?
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And like, when your emotions are high, your logic and reason tend
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to plummet. So like we're panicked, Oh my
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gosh, what are we going to do? And OPS is like, and then sales
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is like, why don't they take this seriously?
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And so talking to the sales group, I'm like, do you have
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that person in your life? Or when the phone rings, you
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like look at it and you're like, I don't want to pick this up.
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And everyone's like, yes, I'm like, so that's how everyone
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feels about you guys, you know? And they're like, I'm like, but
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seriously, you have to think about like, what's the result
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you're looking for when you call people?
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You don't want them to be like, I don't want to pick up this
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call. You want them to say, how can I
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help them and like, what are you doing in every other moment
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before the moment you have a loss come in to build that
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relationship, right? And so those types of
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conversations just I saw shift the culture, right?
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It was like everyone started to collaborate and I think this,
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this thought that, you know, you have to solve all the problems
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in the business. That's not it.
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You're never going to, right? There's always going to be
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issues, but you need to have people that have the skills that
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can work through them, right? That hold each other accountable
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in a way that get you the results you want without hurting
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people's feelings or egos along the way.
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That's brilliant. So you, you transferred a lot of
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stuff there, like you went from having these fear based
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meetings, which now you're taking charge of to kind of
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deliver the message from the visionary in the proper way.
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You also simultaneously had the sales organization collaborating
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more and getting in relationship with the operations team to
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create a, you know, more succinct environment, better
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culture, all of that. How long?
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So when that starts, which you started immediately, I'm sure by
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taking that COO role, how long does it then take to start
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seeing those results in the numbers?
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Because let's be honest, a big business like that, which I know
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sold for a lot, the numbers really run everything.
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So and that's what your boss is looking for.
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How long does it take to for those numbers to come through
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with that? It's a great question and I
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think the results can take quite a bit of time, but there's like
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indicators along the way to measure that we're moving in the
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right direction, right? Like this idea that if nothing
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changes, nothing changes, you know, like this, the definition
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of insanity is doing the same thing, expecting different
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results. That was the owner of that
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company's favorite thing to say. But it's, it's true, right?
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It's like, what behavioral changes are we going to make to
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get a different result? And I think that, you know, if
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you can point to these are the behavioral changes we're making
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and monitor those and the results follow.
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But you have to be really clear that this is the result we want
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and there's a different path to get there, right?
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Which kind of goes back to this. The owner that I worked with, he
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and I were so aligned in terms of the direction of the company,
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but we had completely different approaches in terms of how to
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get the people to do the thing. And so it's figuring out who
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would respond best to him, who responded best to to my approach
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and understanding that it's actually not about who's right
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or wrong, but it's what's the result that we're going to get.
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And so I think you know, Ryan, your question about how long
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does it take to see the results is on every owner's mind, right?
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It's like if I invest in something, I better get the ROI
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out of it. And like, if you don't have a
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way to show that it's moving in a direction, then it's it's easy
12:06
to kind of abandoned that approach and be like, we have to
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try something else. And so I think it's on the
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people that are trying to push an initiative or try to
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implement something new to really provide visibility to the
12:17
owner of the business or the CEO or the executive team of like,
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these are the things we're doing every day.
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And so they have the confidence that like, OK, they're looking
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at this, right? Because I'm sure you you have
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been in the position where something's implemented and
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you're like, I wonder what's happening with that, right?
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And like, if people aren't giving you updates, then you're
12:36
left to your own assumptions. And there's so much risk in
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that. Right.
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And if you could see the incremental change, Yeah, small
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things compounding, we all know that, you know, they're going to
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compound and create the much bigger effect.
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Exactly. That's that's really impressive.
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So tell us how that kind of yeah, journey kept going, kept
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on going and. Where it ended up, yeah.
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So we had a ton of success and we ended up being the largest
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privately owned restoration company in New England.
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So we had 7, seven offices throughout New England and the
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owner of the business, his son had joined the business.
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He was an unbelievable resource. We, you know, he had a plan for
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both his son and I to really continue the business as he
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started to step back, no plans of selling.
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But then he was approached like so many business owners are and,
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and was given an offer he couldn't refuse.
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And I think that's something that employees need to realize
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too, that sometimes business owners have no intention of
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selling. And then all of a sudden this
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opportunity is in front of them that, you know, you work your
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whole life as an entrepreneur to build something and someone
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values it, that you can't help but be like, oh, wow, I have to
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take this, right? And so that happened.
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And it was a shock to all of us when it happened.
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And for anyone that has been through an acquisition or a
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merger, the due diligence period is long.
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So for a while it was just myself, the CFO, the CSO that
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knew it was happening. And that's really hard, right?
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To to keep running the business knowing that something is in the
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process of happening that could quite literally change
14:09
everything or it couldn't happen, right?
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Because like they say, the deal isn't done until it's signed.
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Like it dies like 3 times before it actually happens.
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So ours actually happened and we sold and it it was Rich truly
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believed that that's the the name of the owner of of the
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business I work for. He truly believed that the
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partnership that he had with the company he was selling to that
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they were aligned with his vision, how we built it, that
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they wanted to take our model and basically apply it to their
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other companies that they had acquired.
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So that's what he loved about it, right?
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And and so they made our executive team, the executive
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team of the whole platform. And so it was really exciting in
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the beginning, like any change, I think there was some kind of
14:55
discomfort and people were nervous, but the the belief was
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that things are going to just keep doing what we're doing,
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like let's not mess it up and let's go spread it everywhere
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else. And so sometimes that what you
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think is going to happen isn't what happens.
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And I stayed on for about a year and a half.
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And honestly, despite the the way that story ends with the
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company that we had, I wouldn't change the experience for
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anything. I learned so much during that,
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so much what to do so much. Sometimes even what not to do.
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Yeah. You have a super successful
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business which then makes some bad decisions.
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The next thing you know, it's not a successful.
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Business. So true.
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And I think one of the biggest lessons I learned is it takes
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decades and so much time and energy to build a really
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successful team and culture and business, and it can crumble
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like that if you don't protect it right?
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And that's what happened. To and it's, it's an interesting
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thing right when you actually see big mergers and acquisitions
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happen just even like nationally, right You, you see
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them and then all of a sudden you're like, wait, they went out
16:08
of business really soon afterwards, right.
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The company I started with, they were around for 40 plus years.
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They finally sold and it closed within two years.
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You killed a business that had been around for 40 years and had
16:23
an unbelievable reputation. I think that sometimes, and this
16:26
goes back to like everything that you kind of preach as a
16:29
consultant in your business, it's you really have to actually
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have that honest discomfort, right?
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So I love, you know, some of the things that are on your website
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and some of the things that we've discussed as well.
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And you actually need to approach this as not thinking
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you always have the right way, the right direction, but
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sometimes just let the people do what they're really good at and
16:50
then assess from there. So what you said that you did
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when you first started as CEO is you actually assessed the
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talent, right? The people that have actually
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worked for this company for many, many years.
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I tried to do the same thing when I stepped into Wilson Group
17:02
as well too, to come in guns blazing and think that you're
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going to change everything that's been built.
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Why did you buy that business? It's so true.
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Like you bought the business for a reason.
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It was already a well oiled machine.
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It was successful to come in and think that you're going to flip
17:17
the switch and make it just as successful or more successful.
17:21
It's such a bold move. And I'm always surprised by
17:23
companies that you're like, well, they have it all together.
17:25
They're super successful. Like why do they make those
17:27
decisions? Right?
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And it's sometimes just an interesting piece of sometimes I
17:32
feel like it's an ego where they just like think like, well, you
17:35
know, people will sink or swim. They're going to do it our way
17:37
kind of a thing. But it goes to show that there
17:39
is such a human element in what is being done daily in any
17:43
industry, and if you think that you're going to go in and just
17:46
make massive changes and it's just going to all align and
17:49
work, that's not the case. It's not it's not.
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And I think that when you have the the conversations about like
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what's working, what's not, what would you fix all that?
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It doesn't mean that every idea somebody has, you're going to be
18:01
like, granted, like you're not a genie in a bottle.
18:04
It's not like, sure, whatever you want, it's, but it's hearing
18:07
it and understanding their perspective sometimes to say,
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wow, that's great. We should try that or to say, so
18:12
actually, I don't think you understand how this fits into
18:15
the bigger picture. The reason we do that is because
18:17
of this, right? And it's so it's like sometimes
18:20
you're just telling people, no, that isn't going to change
18:22
because we need to do it, But people just want to know, right?
18:24
Like the idea around clarity and expectations and honestly, from
18:28
a leadership perspective, credibility and and I don't mean
18:31
like what's on your resume. I mean, if you do what you say
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you're going to do, when you say you're going to do it, that is
18:38
invaluable for people, right? Because what we, we had that and
18:42
then with the new leadership, there was all these big things
18:45
that were promised, right? One of the worst things they did
18:49
was they got up in front of our team and they said nothing's
18:53
going to change. And I, my soul left my body
18:57
because for the five years I was in that role, I was, all we had
19:01
done was evolve, right? Change was what made us
19:03
successful. And we were embracing change.
19:06
And change isn't a bad thing if it's managed the right way.
19:09
And also like that's not true. Of course it's going to change,
19:13
right? It's changing right now because
19:15
now you are the person in front of the room for them.
19:17
And so I think telling people what they want to hear, nobody
19:22
wants that. They want the truth, right?
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And and I've seen some mergers and acquisitions go really well
19:29
too. I think M&A that space has a bad
19:31
Rep because of your situation, because of mine, like how it
19:34
happens, like what's at risk. But when you do it well and from
19:38
the beginning, you're like, it's going to be hard, right?
19:40
Like we might run into some issues here and we have the
19:44
skills in the team that are going to get us through it.
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And if you keep telling us your feedback, what you're seeing,
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and it's collaborative, then there's nothing that we can't
19:53
get through, right? I think ultimately it's like any
19:56
partnership, right? You have to put egos aside and
19:59
you actually have to come together and collaborate.
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And it is interesting to see that some of these really
20:04
successful companies out there don't understand that like 1
20:07
little piece. So that being said, right, what
20:11
I want to hear more is you left the company, right?
20:14
You had an unbelievable track record.
20:16
You had seen a massive amount of success.
20:18
You saw it through getting purchased.
20:20
Obviously. I'm sure that owner is grateful
20:23
to all the work that you've done, right?
20:24
He was able to probably retire off of that and live a good
20:27
life. Yeah.
20:29
So what led you into saying, you know what, like the consulting
20:34
thing was something you worked with and that's what led you to
20:36
become COO, right? Like what led you to say I'm
20:39
going to open up my own consulting business?
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Yeah, it's a great question. I originally when I left the the
20:45
business, you know, I had an executive contract to say for a
20:49
certain amount of time and then they were going to make some
20:51
changes. And I just had this moment of
20:54
like, I don't believe in this anymore, right?
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And I think when you lose that belief or conviction as a
21:00
leader, you can't be authentic anymore.
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And that was really my superpower as a leader is like,
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I was authentic in how I showed up.
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And so I couldn't do that anymore.
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And I also felt so guilty to leave this team, right?
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And I was like, Oh my God, my team, I can't leave them, blah,
21:18
blah, yadda, yadda. I decided to go out on my own.
21:21
And it's funny because so many of the leaders in that business
21:26
left shortly after because it's like they were holding on for
21:29
me. I was holding on for them.
21:30
And it's like everyone was in it together because that's what a
21:33
strong culture is, right? And so I watched that fall out
21:36
and was like, Oh my gosh, like this really is something
21:41
special, what we had and what we built.
21:42
And like, I want to do that again.
21:44
And so I had a private equity firm reach out to me and they
21:48
basically wanted me to become, help them find a new business
21:51
to, to, to purchase in the, the restoration space and basically
21:55
do it again, right? Build another version of that
21:58
company. And so it sounded exciting,
22:00
right? And so it takes a while to find
22:02
a good target. So we started looking for
22:05
different businesses to buy. And then on the side, I decided
22:08
to do some consulting just because that can take some time.
22:10
So was as I was doing this consulting for some businesses
22:14
that were, you know, trying to experience certain levels of
22:16
growth, that growth, they, they found a business for us to
22:22
potentially acquire. And where I should have felt
22:25
excited, I was like, oh, I, I think I don't want to do that
22:30
anymore, right? And I had to have a kind of
22:33
difficult conversation with myself because it felt so much
22:36
more secure to say, OK, but this is a business.
22:39
I can go be CEO for a business or should I really like stick
22:42
with this? But the, the energy that I got
22:46
from consulting, I would only get maybe like 20% of the time
22:50
as the CEO, right? Because 100% of my time as a
22:53
consultant is working with leaders and developing them and
22:57
watching that domino effect of when you give leaders that are
23:02
open to coaching and want to learn like skills to elevate, it
23:07
impacts everyone, right? And so I'm like, OK, instead of
23:09
just becoming ACEO for this business, what if I work with a
23:12
lot of businesses and then, you know, have a greater impact?
23:15
And so deciding, you know, have the conversation with my
23:19
husband, he was like, absolutely, why wouldn't you do
23:22
that? And close friends encouraging me
23:24
to do so. And so that was five years ago,
23:26
right? And, and I'm very fortunate that
23:29
the business has grown because of word of mouth.
23:32
Like I really have not, I don't have a social media presence.
23:36
I don't do a lot of marketing. It's really been CEO's talking
23:41
to other CEO's saying, oh, I'm really struggling with this and
23:44
then my name coming up in that conversation.
23:46
It's, it's really impressive. I mean, it's to have such a huge
23:49
business. I mean, you're working with, and
23:51
obviously we're very good friends and you're working with
23:53
Fortune 500 companies. You're on stage speaking around
23:56
the country. Like there's a lot that you're
23:58
doing. And it all comes back to the
24:01
impact you have on people, you know, And it's not just about
24:04
creating this amazing culture with people.
24:05
It's not just like helping these sales organizations.
24:07
It's all that stuff. But it also leads to a really
24:10
happy life for these CEOs and let's be honest, better numbers,
24:14
better profit, more efficient, all of those different things.
24:17
And I know that's a really important thing for you because
24:18
culture is super, super important.
24:21
And it all ties together because numbers about culture are
24:23
nothing and the other way around.
24:24
And you don't have a business? It's so true.
24:26
And I think like some business owners get so kind of like they
24:31
have the eye roll and you talk about culture because they think
24:33
it's like, oh, it's, it's, you know, just soft and trying to
24:37
make people happy. And I'm the first person to tell
24:39
you it is not your job as a leader to make your team happy.
24:42
It is your job to set expectations, to provide clarity
24:45
and to hold them accountable to that.
24:47
And when people have that, when they have clarity, when you,
24:51
they know, if I do this, I get this.
24:53
If I don't do this, this happens.
24:55
That creates happiness, right? It's not your job to be like,
25:00
Oh, I want this to be comfortable and happy for you.
25:02
It's like, no, it's your job to push them to be successful.
25:05
And then that success will lead to happiness.
25:08
And so I think it's just a shift around that, right?
25:10
That you can have both. You can have people that really
25:13
enjoy what they do and hit numbers and, and this common
25:18
misconception that you know, well, if I push them hard, then
25:22
they're going to leave. Or if I, if I hold them
25:24
accountable, then I'm the bad guy.
25:25
It's like, well, only if you scream at them, right?
25:28
And so if people can kind of hide behind that of, well, I
25:31
can't do this because that'll happen.
25:33
And and so it's either this way or that way, It's black or
25:36
white, right? Like you either have to be a
25:38
drill Sergeant and not allow this and, or you will get let
25:42
people get away with murder. And I just don't, I don't think
25:44
that that is true. And I also don't think that's
25:47
the most effective way to function.
25:48
I love hearing you say that because I think a lot of people
25:50
think making a team happy is the soft stuff, right?
25:54
It's like a little bit more kumbaya.
25:56
It's a little bit more, you know, trying to trying to give
26:01
them everything right and trying to make everything so handed to
26:07
you on a silver platter, right. But at the end of the day, we
26:09
signed up to work right. And I always say I'm like work
26:12
as fun as our job can be, it's still work.
26:15
And I think that some of the best ways that you can create a
26:18
really strong culture is actually by holding people
26:21
accountable to a high expectation, a high level of
26:24
standards. And I think that when people
26:26
actually realize what they're capable of and that they're able
26:29
to rise to those standards, that's when they become happier
26:32
because they actually can do something for themselves.
26:35
It's nothing you're doing. It's just you're saying, I know
26:38
you're capable of doing this. I'm going to hold you
26:39
accountable to do it. And then I'm going to help you
26:41
and give you all the tools to support you to get to that
26:44
level. But ultimately, that's when
26:46
people I think are the most happy because they're the most
26:48
proud. It's so true.
26:49
And I think it is like a huge piece.
26:51
It is. And I think that people, a lot
26:55
of leaders live in this space of like they assume their team
26:58
knows what they need and what they want and what's important
27:01
to them. And that's a lot of the work
27:03
that I do as CEO's is like uncovering what do you think
27:07
that they know? And what do you know that they
27:08
know? And you know, this feeling of
27:11
like, well, they should do this and they should be doing this.
27:13
Like says who have you told them that?
27:15
It's like, oh, I shouldn't have to tell them that.
27:17
Why? It's common sense.
27:19
If there's one thing people take away from this conversation,
27:21
there's no such thing as common sense.
27:22
I can tell you that we all come from different backgrounds,
27:25
different experiences that lead to what you believe and value.
27:28
And so if you assume that everyone shares your same
27:31
beliefs, your same urgency, your same communication style, there
27:35
will always be a disconnect on your team, right?
27:38
And so when it comes to accountability and people's, I
27:41
don't know how to do it. It starts with voltage.
27:42
You set the expectation. Do you, do they even know what
27:45
you're holding them to? Or are people failing your
27:48
secret tests? So many people manage that way
27:52
of like, oh, they're late again. It's like, well, did you, did
27:54
you ever tell them that even though it's 830 start, you want
27:57
them there at 8:15, right? It's like, well, they should
28:00
don't you know, everyone should be there that early.
28:02
It's like, well, some people, some people don't.
28:03
But if you you can't hold people accountable to something they
28:08
don't know you're holding them accountable to.
28:10
So how do you, you mentioned the word uncoachable earlier.
28:14
How do you take a leader that might be uncoachable but still
28:18
wants their business to grow? That's why they hire you.
28:20
And how do you work with that leader?
28:22
You know, 'cause someone's coachable, great, they're going
28:24
to take your advice and they're going to implement it.
28:26
And that's probably the easier part.
28:27
Someone that's not as willing, how do you get them to be more
28:30
willing and get them to execute essentially properly?
28:34
I would also piggyback off of that and say, can you spot
28:37
someone who's uncoachable fairly quickly and what are some of
28:40
those traits that you're spotting?
28:41
Yeah, both. OK, really good question.
28:43
So to start, when I'm first engaging with CEO that's looking
28:49
for me to get involved with like their leadership team, I do the
28:53
deep dive, which is really similar to what I talked about
28:55
that I did when I first took on the role of COO, right?
28:58
So it means I'm going to meet with everyone on their team.
29:00
I'm going to ask them the same set of questions.
29:02
I'm going to gather feedback. But prior to that, I give them
29:05
language to explain to their team like this is meant to know
29:09
what's really going on. Like speak now or forever.
29:11
Hold your peace. Basically, we're asking, so
29:13
here's your time to tell us what's working, what's not, what
29:16
are the blind spots, right? And so we gather all this
29:18
information. But in that initial conversation
29:20
with that CEO, I tell them, like, you are going to hear
29:23
things that you hate, like things that are going to piss
29:27
you off, things you disagree with.
29:30
And if that alone makes you uncomfortable, this probably
29:34
won't work, right? Because it's like, if you can't
29:36
even the first steps admitting there's a problem, right?
29:39
So it's like, if you can't even admit maybe something's off
29:42
here, then this isn't going to work.
29:45
And so I, I almost try to talk people out of it before I take
29:48
them on as a client because I don't want to get into a
29:51
situation where, you know, we're sure you can give me all your
29:57
money and we'll talk about the same thing week over week.
29:59
But that's not fun for me either, right?
30:01
And so I have had clients where I've had to end the encouraged
30:06
us to end the engagement by like, I think you should
30:08
actually focus your time on executing the things we talk
30:11
about, right, instead of us just wasting our time doing this.
30:14
But in the in the beginning of that right on the front end, to
30:17
be able to explain like this is going to be hard and
30:20
uncomfortable and you're going to have to like self reflect.
30:23
And there's a lot of that's in your control here and there's
30:26
guess what, no judgment. Like, I think that's where
30:30
that's where they're willing to trust me in the process.
30:32
Because when they tell me I'm struggling with this, I'm
30:34
struggling with this, I'm never like, wow, you are not kind,
30:38
right? It's like, it's like, well, I
30:40
just ask more questions. Like, why do you feel you need
30:42
to talk that way? Like, what's the result you're
30:44
looking for? Like, have you ever asked what
30:47
they think? Right.
30:47
And so then it gets them to be more reflective than defensive.
30:51
And I think you can't coach anyone that's in defence mode.
30:55
Like they are not willing to hear feedback.
30:57
All of us take a different can take feedback in different ways
31:02
or need to be in a different place, right?
31:03
Some people can hear feedback digested in the moment, have a
31:07
conversation. Some people need to process,
31:09
right. Some people need to get really
31:10
mad and then 10 minutes later they don't really care anymore.
31:14
But you can't assume that you know these things about people,
31:18
right? You have to, you have to leave
31:21
the judgement at the door, not like make sure people feel safe
31:24
in the room with you before you can get their team feeling safe,
31:29
right? And if you're going to shame
31:30
someone or judge them of like, wow, I can't believe you did
31:34
that then. Like why would they want to be
31:36
vulnerable enough to be coached? So in terms of tactical stuff,
31:40
right, because you talked a lot about they have to then do the
31:43
work and that's a huge piece of anything, right?
31:45
It's you're giving them advice, you're giving them coaching.
31:48
And this is any type of coaching, whether it's on the
31:51
field or in the boardroom, whatever it might be, they
31:54
actually now have to do the additional work.
31:57
Do you spell that out for them? Do you like?
31:59
How do you create like a plan so that they also have success when
32:02
working with you? It's customized based on the
32:05
leader, right, which I think as leaders you have to do when you
32:09
are working with people on your team, right?
32:11
You have to make sure that you are approaching in a way that
32:14
they're going to respond to. Some people need the tough love.
32:17
Some people just need a lot of encouragement and the goal gold
32:21
stars. And so it's first uncovering
32:23
like what motivates them right and and setting the ground rules
32:28
around accountability, right. So I like to start with the the
32:31
result we're looking for, start with the ambition and work
32:33
backwards, right. So it's like working together.
32:36
What are you trying to accomplish?
32:37
I want my team to be able to give me hard feedback.
32:40
I want us to have like really honest conversations as a team,
32:43
like tell me what it is we're after.
32:45
And then we're going to look at all the things that could get in
32:48
the way of that success, right? And then build out kind of a
32:52
plan of what's the first step? Because I think when executives
32:57
reach out to a coach or they have those, you know, 2 CE OS
32:59
talking to each other, which is allowed me to grow the business,
33:03
right? Then referring to me is like,
33:05
what am I going to do with this? This is such a big problem.
33:07
And and I think I have the ability to take something that
33:11
feels really big and make it feel digestible, right?
33:14
Like make it small. So it's like, if it feels big,
33:16
it usually means your first step isn't small enough.
33:19
So like when I'm starting to coach someone, it's like, OK,
33:22
this is what we want to accomplish, but like, what do we
33:24
want to do this week? Yeah, what do we?
33:26
Want to do break it down? Let's get a win.
33:28
Yeah, Let's get a win. Like, can you get through one
33:30
meeting without yelling? Like could you just try, you
33:32
know, or like I want you to tell this individual that you're
33:37
working on giving feedback and like for them to expect it,
33:40
right? And like it's a bite sized thing
33:41
where they can say, OK, I'm going to try this.
33:43
And I think so much in leadership can be there's so
33:48
many misfires because of that misalignment between intention
33:51
and impact, right? And so sometimes if people don't
33:54
have the language, right, I don't think it's that people
33:56
don't want to tell the truth or that people don't like, I like
33:59
to believe that people are coming from a good place, right?
34:02
And so sometimes the, the best thing to do is to just tell them
34:07
like just state your intention, as weird or awkward as that
34:11
might sound before you say the thing like, hey, like my
34:14
intention here is to give you feedback to make you the best
34:18
version of yourself in this position.
34:20
My fear is that I'm going to make you feel bad, but I need
34:23
you to know my intention is to make you better.
34:25
And if there's a better way I can deliver it, you tell me.
34:27
I'm all ears. But like that, this is the
34:29
result we're after. And then people can can
34:32
understand like, oh, that's why they're doing it right.
34:36
It's that. Transition like you talk about
34:38
reading on your website, it's that transition from dishonest
34:42
harmony to you know what do you call it honest discomfort Yep.
34:47
And that's really magical because you're taking that
34:49
something that might be fine and, you know, going along, you
34:52
know, no problems at all. But it's just dishonest because
34:56
you're not being clear it's. A facade, right?
34:58
It's like that word fine. It's like, oh, it's fine.
35:01
It's like, is it, you know, and we all have a partner, a friend.
35:03
It's like, Oh yeah, everything's fine.
35:04
You're like, Oh, no, now I'm in trouble, right.
35:06
And so it's it's like, what are the things that live under the
35:09
surface that like, just because you ignore them doesn't mean
35:12
they go away. So like it exists whether we
35:15
want to talk about it or not. So you're better off uncovering
35:18
it. But I think it's that people,
35:21
people fear how they're going to make people feel if they say the
35:25
hard thing, right? Like because you, we judge our
35:28
selves on our intentions, but we judge everyone else on how they
35:31
make us feel. And so if you realize that,
35:35
right, that like you can tell yourself anything like, well,
35:39
they didn't like what I had to say, but like, I know like my
35:42
intention was good there because I did this.
35:43
It's like, oh, it doesn't change.
35:44
Two things can be true at once. Like, yes, your intention was
35:46
good, but the impact wasn't good, right?
35:48
And so with that idea of dishonest harmony and honest
35:53
discomfort is realizing that even though it's uncomfortable,
35:58
like it's going to get you to a better place, right?
36:01
So this dishonest harmony, this facade over authenticity, right?
36:06
So it's you. What that looks like is like,
36:09
you know, you're in a team meeting and everyone's like
36:11
nodding, like, Yep, sounds good, boss.
36:13
And then they leave the room and they're like, oh, this guy, you
36:15
know, and like, so it's like we're pretending everything's
36:18
fine, but everyone's or someone on the team is a problem and no
36:21
one wants to talk about it, right?
36:22
But The thing is, is like you are communicating, whether you
36:26
say something or not, what you tolerate.
36:29
And like what you tolerate, you normalize as a leader.
36:33
And so there's so much damage that happens when you live in
36:38
this dishonest harmony, right? Because it's like people are
36:43
watching you make decisions that they're like, that ain't right.
36:46
Why? Why they, why are they allowed?
36:47
And so then you're losing credibility on top of like the
36:50
damage that was already happening within the Organism.
36:53
How do you make those corrections?
36:54
How do you implement things that help?
36:56
So the first the thing you have to do is like admit that they
36:59
exist, right? And sometimes it's like we don't
37:02
people are afraid to talk about things unless they have a
37:04
solution. And I think there's actually so
37:06
much value in like sitting in it.
37:08
Sometimes it's like, wow, yeah, that's bad.
37:11
What are we gonna do? Let's think about it, right?
37:13
It's like, oh, wow, we just said it, you know, like, and we're
37:17
all still alive. We did it, you know, and, and I
37:20
humor is a big thing for me. Like I think you'll see me in
37:23
team meetings if I'm facilitating a meeting and
37:25
someone's being really vulnerable and trying to like
37:28
share something that's really difficult to say or give
37:30
feedback up, right? Like it feels like you are doing
37:34
this right. I will literally be like, that
37:38
was amazing. I'm so proud of you.
37:39
That must have been so hard, right?
37:40
And it just kind of is like, OK, all right, and, and gets them to
37:45
realize like I did it and, and also like celebrate it, right?
37:48
And so I think the honest discomfort has to happen in a
37:53
place where there's safety and it has to start small, right?
37:58
So it's like if you know yourself as a leader that when
38:01
you hear feedback, you get defensive.
38:04
Do not tomorrow go into your leadership meeting and be like,
38:07
OK, everybody, let me have it. Tell me what you think.
38:10
Because as soon as you start. Yeah.
38:13
Because as soon as you start getting defensive, then people
38:15
are going to say, well, that's why I don't tell you anything,
38:18
right? But if you can just say I want
38:21
to, I want to ask questions and I'm just going to listen, right.
38:24
And you take notes as people are talking and they see.
38:27
Oh, they actually did. Just listen.
38:30
They didn't fight with me. Guess what?
38:32
That's one more step in the right direction of like they are
38:35
going to get to a point. You don't always have to have
38:37
the answer. It's so true if they can give
38:38
you any piece of whether it be criticism or whether it be just
38:41
what they're going through, you don't always have to have either
38:44
an opinion or a solve. For them, so true.
38:46
Which is which is tricky. So you were able to take tough
38:50
leaders and help them transform their their businesses.
38:53
You're ready. You're able to take people that
38:55
are open to feedback. What are the type of clients
38:58
you're looking for now? Or like who do you love working
39:01
with the most? It's funny, I work in so many
39:03
different industries, so many different types of businesses
39:06
and, and I find that the ones that I really feel like there's
39:13
a huge impact is if they're going through some sort of
39:15
transition, right? So it's like either growth could
39:19
be a transition. So we were small, now we're big.
39:22
Or I am thinking, I want to take a step back, who's going to come
39:26
in, right? Or we, we actually need this
39:28
whole other layer of leadership that we didn't have before or an
39:31
acquisition or something like that.
39:32
And, and, and clients that are willing to say this is going to
39:36
be different and what we did before might not work anymore,
39:40
right? Like those are the types of
39:41
clients that are willing to say, I got to look at this and, and
39:46
the people I need to look at it with are my team.
39:48
And the, you know, the commonality between all my
39:52
clients is that they have humans, right?
39:56
Like the human component of this is so critical.
39:58
And I think that the work that I do with individuals is meant to
40:02
translate outside of the workplace, right?
40:04
I think if you're invested in in helping people as human beings
40:09
versus like who they are to you in their role, there's such a
40:12
deeper connection and like there's such a deeper value that
40:16
then they attribute to the organization.
40:18
And when I do these introduction deep dives, right, the first
40:22
thing I say is you are so lucky that you have a leader that
40:26
cares enough to ask what you think, right?
40:29
Like, I put them up so high for doing it because they should be
40:35
right. They should be celebrated for
40:36
doing that because so many leaders don't.
40:38
And that alone is like very disarming for the team.
40:41
Like, oh, you're right. Like, so you don't want to waste
40:44
this opportunity. This person has invested in
40:47
someone coming in to say, tell me everything, What am I
40:49
missing? What are my blind spots?
40:51
And yeah, some people are a little, you know, more closed
40:54
off. But I think, you know, when
40:56
people are like, how do you actually get them to tell you
40:58
the truth? It's like because people want to
41:00
tell the truth, they just don't have an outlet.
41:03
They don't have the words or they don't think you care,
41:06
right? And so determining that and just
41:08
I'm, they realize I'm just gathering information and also
41:11
setting the expectation up front of what I'm going to do with
41:13
that information. Or they're nervous about what
41:15
the outcome will be if they do be too honest.
41:17
Bingo. But it's also the way that
41:19
you're laying that foundation and saying that it's also
41:23
there's so much truth to that. So whether the the leader of
41:26
that organization was lacking tact or had some some tough
41:30
approaches in the in the past, they did recognize that there
41:34
was an issue. So, and they are investing in
41:37
bettering themselves and bettering their team.
41:39
And a lot of the stuff that you're talking about, like you
41:41
said, it translates into outside of the work life, I hear all the
41:45
things that you're saying. And I'm like, that would make
41:46
you a better partner in your marriage or in your
41:48
relationships. It will make you a better parent
41:51
if you actually speak that way, if you set clear expectations,
41:54
if you actually tell people what your intentions are, right?
41:58
All those things just make you a better friend, right?
42:00
Like a better human being. So I think it's just it's such
42:04
good stuff that if someone can actually invest in your services
42:08
and bring you in to their organization, you're really
42:11
making such a huge impact beyond their their day-to-day.
42:15
Beyond just the huge increase in ROI.
42:17
If they oh, totally, that's obviously the money, because
42:20
that's exactly like it, it, it does lead to that.
42:24
Like the results are real and like everybody's happier when
42:28
you're winning, right? So it's like, find a way to win
42:31
and then you protected. And I think knowing that what
42:34
you're after is not perfection. It's authenticity is like so
42:40
critical and understanding what, what this work is and like how
42:43
it can impact you. And, and I think, you know, if
42:46
you are listening to this as a leader and I'm like, oh, but
42:50
it's different for me or like, I can't do that or my team
42:53
wouldn't understand that maybe. But what if they do, right?
42:58
And like, I think there's you don't know unless you ask, but I
43:03
can't stress enough, don't ask unless you aren't going to
43:05
listen, right? And that doesn't mean granting
43:07
wishes. It just means like having the
43:09
conversation and circling back on things, right?
43:11
Like when I gather all this feedback, I make it very clear
43:14
to the every person I meet with, I'm going to review this.
43:17
I'm going to put it together and like, these are my findings.
43:19
These are my recommendations. I'm going to meet with the CEO.
43:22
We're going to then meet with you as they know what's
43:24
happening. They know, they know the next 5
43:26
steps so they don't have to sit in that wonder and worry of like
43:31
what's next? Yeah, I was just so I gave so
43:33
much. What is she going to do with it?
43:34
Like is it going to be blasted on a billboard or like they
43:38
know, right? Clarity on what's going to.
43:40
Happen exactly. And so it's like people just
43:42
want clarity around what you expect from them, what, how
43:47
you're going to handle things with all the businesses, all the
43:50
teams I've worked with, no one has ever been like, you know
43:53
what? I want less clarity.
43:56
I want less clarity in my role. I want less clarity in like the
43:58
future, how I can make more money.
44:00
It's like, give them a path, right?
44:02
And and this, this trap we all fall into of assuming people
44:07
know what we want. Like I think the power of this
44:10
work is like, you have so much more control than you think.
44:14
I think one of my biggest takeaways from all of the the
44:17
conversation that we've been able to have today, because
44:20
there's so much good stuff in this.
44:21
Like you said, any leader that's listening, they're going to be
44:24
able to take something away based on their current
44:26
leadership style. But to me, one of the biggest
44:28
takeaways is when asking for feedback and really digging deep
44:33
into what your staff feels and what your staff thinks, one of
44:36
the best opportunities is to provide clarity.
44:39
I, you said this at the very beginning, but sometimes you're
44:42
going to actually hear that people are thinking that things
44:45
should be done a certain way. And all you have to actually do
44:48
is explain to them why it's done the other way.
44:50
And then they'll be like, oh, that makes a ton of sense,
44:53
right? And now they trust in you so
44:55
much more because they didn't realize that it was being done a
44:57
certain way for a bigger picture idea or for maybe efficiency's
45:03
sake or whatever the the case may be.
45:05
I love those types of conversations within our team
45:07
because to me, I'm like the minute we're able to explain to
45:10
each other why we're doing what we're doing.
45:12
Because when you're doing different roles, you don't
45:14
always understand why someone's doing it a certain way.
45:17
From an outsider's perspective, you can have a little bit of
45:19
judgement on how someone's doing something or the decisions
45:21
they're making. But asking a question is my
45:24
favorite thing, right? Asking questions and hearing the
45:27
way other people's brains work allows you to really, truly
45:32
understand where people are coming from and then correct it.
45:35
Correct the course, not correct the person, right?
45:37
Correct the course of like, well, This is why it's actually
45:39
done that way. Or oh, you opened up my eyes to
45:42
like such a good idea. Maybe we do do it that way.
45:45
And I think that ultimately that is just a better symbiotic
45:48
relationship in any work environment, whether it's a
45:51
small company like ours or whether it's these huge
45:53
companies that you're working with.
45:54
Yeah, it's like the the why behind it, right?
45:57
Like if you don't start there for people, and I think leaders
46:00
can say, but doesn't matter, like they just need to focus on
46:03
this. It's like, no, people want to
46:05
understand how they fit into it, right?
46:06
If you want people to feel like they're a part of something
46:08
bigger than themselves and like paint the full picture for them,
46:11
don't just assume that they know.
46:15
So I do, I think there's like so much value and curiosity and
46:18
asking questions and, and really listening like it's hard for
46:23
people to ask a question and not respond with a statement, right?
46:30
Like, like, oh, what we do is we like, sometimes it's better just
46:33
leave space, let people get it out because if they feel you're
46:35
defensive, they're not going to be, they're going to shut down,
46:39
they're not going to talk about it, right?
46:40
And so let them know that like I, I want to listen, right?
46:45
And I think another really important piece of that is set
46:48
the expectation of like, if I, if I misstep as a leader again,
46:52
I'm giving you permission to call me out on it, right?
46:54
That's how you really see change because we talk about these
46:57
little things, how you're going to implement them.
46:58
But like anything, it's clarity and expectations.
47:01
It's like, hey, I know in the past I've come across as this,
47:04
right? Or I know in the past these
47:05
meetings have gone this way. It is my intention that we, we
47:10
change that. And if you see me, you know,
47:13
falling back into bad behavior, please tell me, right?
47:16
I'm asking for you to tell me. Now that person is like, oh,
47:19
they want to know. And so they, they don't have the
47:21
fear associated with like protecting that dishonest
47:25
harmony, right? They're like, no, he wants me to
47:27
tell him if he's doing that thing and because it's coming
47:31
from a place to help, right? And I think, you know, when you
47:35
implement a process and people aren't following it, it's like,
47:37
tell them what's going to happen if they don't do it, right?
47:40
Like what's the consequence? And consequence doesn't have to
47:43
be extreme. I'm not talking about like
47:44
you're fired or anything. It's like, hey, if this happens,
47:47
then we're going to have to start having weekly meetings on
47:49
this to make sure that your information is in the system or
47:51
to make sure that you're following up like you said you
47:53
would. But it's all geared towards
47:56
setting it up front so there's no emotion around it at the end.
47:59
Because if it's really clear up front, then there's no room for
48:02
excuses. It's just like, yeah, I didn't
48:05
do that. And it's like, OK, so you know
48:06
what happens now and we move forward, right?
48:08
Like the change without the blame is such a critical piece
48:12
of, I think, like lasting change in an organization.
48:14
I love that there's, there's so many good Nuggets here.
48:17
This is great. This is fun.
48:18
The change? Without the blame.
48:20
I know that. I know that is good.
48:21
So one last thing as we wrap up, OK.
48:23
So whether it be about team dysfunction or leadership or
48:27
succession plans or mergers and acquisitions or whatever it is,
48:31
what's one thing that you would like to tell our listeners, One
48:34
big take away before we wrap it up?
48:37
It's so hard to choose. I think if you can incorporate
48:40
the question, what's the result that I'm looking for before any
48:45
conversation you have, it will change your perspective so much
48:50
on how often there's a disconnect between intention and
48:54
impact, right. So like if you say, like when I
48:57
go into a conversation, what's the result I'm looking for?
48:59
Do I want to piss this person off?
49:00
Do I want them to quit? Or am I trying to give them
49:03
feedback to make them better? OK, If that's the result I want,
49:07
how can I say it in a way that it'll get that impact versus,
49:12
well, it was true, right? Like it's easy to say, well,
49:14
yeah, I told him that, but it was true.
49:16
It's like, yeah, but you you lost your opportunity to
49:18
actually get the result because how you approach something is
49:22
going to take a different path based on the result that you
49:25
want. It's not like you say it's how
49:27
you say it, right? Yeah.
49:28
So I love that one. I think that's that's by far one
49:31
of one of my favorite takeaways as well, too.
49:33
You you've given us a lot. This is so good.
49:36
I think. I mean, I'm ready to hire you
49:38
like. Have you?
49:39
Done. I feel like anyone listening to
49:41
this, it's like why wouldn't we be going to realconsulting.com,
49:44
right? It's.
49:45
It's real. It's RI ehlconsulting.com.
49:50
Good, Ryan. EHL and.
49:52
It's also a good a good play on words, like you've got the
49:54
perfect last name right. She.
49:56
Has the real man. But yes, it's been amazing.
50:01
Obviously, we thank you so. Much for having.
50:02
Me, we look up to you as a a leader and a consultant and
50:05
friend and all the above so. Feeling is mutual.
50:08
Thank you guys so much for having me.
50:10
Thank you. For coming on.