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Quiet Cracking: Why Burnout Now Hits at Age 25 · Not All Business

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Welcome to Not All Business, a podcast by two former CEO's who
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went from competitors to friends.
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I'm Blakely Graham and my Co host is Heather Cooper and we're
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joined by our producer Clay Cornell, who keeps us from
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completely losing our minds. So during recording anyway,
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today we are talking about what happens when you hit the wall.
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But not just burnout. We're talking about quiet
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cracking when high performers are holding it together on the
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outside but fracturing on the inside.
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So we start now. There's always this awkward like
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how the F do you start the banter?
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Well, I can't stop looking at Clay's hair.
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Oh, I know. Hey, he got the big shaver on
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it. Does it go?
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Full. 360 all the way around all.
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The way around 270. Hang on, I'll take off my
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headphones. Yeah.
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Is it a Mohawk? It's not really a Mohawk.
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It's a It's a Mohawk adjacent. I'm not going to be able to hear
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you, so say so say anything you want is that?
1:08
A muffin top. No, Yeah.
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Do you know what a muffin top is though?
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Well, but a Mohawk goes down. A muffin top is the thing that
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goes around your. Your belly, but OK, all right.
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Wow, that really is up there. It's sort of that's not.
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A bad shaped head. You have clay.
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It's pretty. Your honey, your.
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Head is pretty decently shaped. You have a very uniform head.
1:29
You're going to be a good bald guy.
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OK, that. Is that going to happen?
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I would never wish that on you. I think although honey bald is
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very sexy. Not honey you Clay.
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That would be weird. Honey Nick.
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My husband Nick is bald. I'm.
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And listeners and viewers, we have started the show at this
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point. This is the show.
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I'm going to stop speaking now. I wasn't sure.
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I've got some volume here which is good.
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Is it gel? It's not gel, it's a sea salt
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spray. OK, I use that.
2:00
It's the best, yeah. OK, it gives it texture, you
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know, cause yeah, otherwise I, I, it can kind of just be, it'll
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just be like a poof. It'll just go straight up.
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But if I give it a little, you know, like a little bit of
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weight, a little bit of a judge, little texture and so.
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It does what you're naturally curly then.
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I was just about to ask, if you grow it all out is it like 80s
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hair metal style? Totally, and I used to have hair
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down past my shoulders before and it basically starts to curl
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now. What we have here is the wave.
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When it grows longer, the wave crashes over turn.
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You know a surfer could ride it. You know it turns into a full.
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No, no, no, no, you're not talking about the wave and the
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claw. Like the hairstyle?
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The 80s? Yeah.
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Yeah, so women in the 80s would make the wave or like the claw,
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I don't know which. One.
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Didn't you used to have both? I did.
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You guys, it's spirit week at my gym and Monday you had to bring
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in your senior photo and it was amazing because we all have our
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senior photos up there and I had the wave and the claw like in my
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senior photo. And so do like many other women.
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It felt so validating. I'm so desperately trying to
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find it so I could bring it up and I can't see it now because
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it was on a story. Oh.
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No, no, no. Oh yes, it was.
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They put it on a story today was wear your prom dress and I still
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have mine. So I did my workout in my prom
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dress and 35° this morning. Scott Ward's tux.
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Is that a humble brag to be like I still fit in my prom dress?
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Well, actually I don't. So I actually had to wear my
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winter formal because it was velvet.
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Or like a Cape style. No, no, no, no.
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I had my winter formal dress and it was just like a stretchier
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thing. And then I brought my prom dress
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and put made my coach put it on. I thought it needed to be
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represented. Like who keeps their shit like
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that? I don't know why I have all that
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stuff. It's, you know, like for dress
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up, you know? You know who keeps that stuff?
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Donna? My mother.
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She has. Oh.
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Because you were. I'm Tom Queen.
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Is that your little rag? We've done this one before.
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We got to move on. You keep bringing it up.
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I think you should talk to your therapist about it also.
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She has like homecoming prom, like all in this old closet of
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hers that she kept. She thought, well, she might
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want to wear them one day. She might want to work out one
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day. You know, I wore today, I wore
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it at my engagement party. I've worn it many a times.
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It it comes in handy over the years, OK.
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Well, good to know. I just don't think our generate
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our like kids should keep theirs because they're kind of like not
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appropriate. Well, there are shirts.
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They're, they're like a top. They're not.
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They're not a. That's not a.
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Dress. It's a shirt.
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Terrible, terrible. You know it's OK.
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It's going to. Be different, you don't think?
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They're rocking them. Exactly the same.
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Oh no, I think the passion of the future is going to go full
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Mormon. I think the dresses are going to
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go to the angle we're. All going to be trad wives.
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So it's going to swing in the opposite direction.
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It's definitely not. There's going to be like bikinis
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or something. I don't know how you can get
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smaller. You can't.
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But also I have a question. So did you ever get into like
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dream analysis or read any books about dreams or what they?
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Mean or I hear a dream coming on right now.
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Because I'm struggling with my dream last night and I know it's
5:22
boring to talk about your dreams.
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I know about like, your teeth fall out, you're stressed, you
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know, like there's like. No, no.
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You've never dreamed that your all your teeth fell out.
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That's a super common one. Oh yeah, they.
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Fall into my mouth and I eat them.
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Yes, you like chew on them. What?
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It's like this. All right, keep going.
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You didn't have your teeth out. Anyway, Blakely hates sounds.
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Any mouth. Noises.
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All right, go ahead. Misophonia.
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Misophonia. Misophonia.
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So, yeah, so I have this dream where I am, I'm walking down the
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street and I'm walking toward a train station and I have a baby
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like it's and it's my baby and I'm this age and you just.
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Got married. I did just plan right.
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So the baby is has, despite my age, all the typical chromosomes
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since it's a baby and but it's a it's a Indian baby and the head
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is a is a Indian man. It like it's like a face of a
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full grown man, but it's also a baby.
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And so then I'm walking to the train station trying to get to
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the train, nursing the baby, and then I get to the train and it's
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like a sleeper. Cart nursing a man.
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But it's a baby and it's. Man, Samantha can.
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We let her finish the dream. Please.
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We're at the SO then the peak of the dream.
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I'm on the edge of. My seat.
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This is crazy. And it's an overnight sleeper
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train and I've got it and there's like these bunks, but
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they don't have any partitions. And it's so and they've put me
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up on the top and I'm like, I have a baby.
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I can't, I can't sleep on the top bunk.
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If what if the baby rolls off? And then there's these two men
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standing down from me, looking at me, just shaking their head,
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going, I'm so sick of her complaining.
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And then I woke up that that's not that that means something,
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right? Like I can't shake it.
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I'm like, what is happening to me?
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I'm not laughing at your dream. I'm laughing that you wake up
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from this dream and you probably turn to Nick and you're like, is
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this worth bringing up? No, I did.
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I did. I thought he laughed so hard.
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He goes, he's like, he's like, I don't, I don't even think we
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should dissect that. I, I don't.
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I think you just let that one go.
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You took a little Nyquil last night, which I did, 'cause my
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cough is still here, he said. Blame it on the Nyquil.
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OK, it's a Nyquil dream that explains.
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Everything. Does it a?
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Lot more sense. OK, Yeah, yeah.
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I was thinking of some kind of like post conference dream for
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us, like all those people. Maybe there was someone needing.
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Some. Judging your baby.
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And then there's like these complaining men because you
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were, we talked about women getting the like raw and the
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stick all the time. Like I, I don't know.
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I don't know, but it's it's stuck with me and the face still
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sticks with me. It was cute though, and it
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talked in a sweet little. Anyway, it was OK.
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Yeah. What did you dream about last
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night? Weird.
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I don't really retain my dreams very often, no, that's good.
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That's a good sign of good sleeping, right?
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Yeah, I mean, I'm a pretty decent sleeper these days.
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I wasn't always. It took getting rid of the.
8:38
Corporate. World to start sleeping but once
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I did that man I got 8 hours a night.
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Sleep like a baby? Yeah, do you?
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Want to know what I'm doing tonight?
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Yes, concert going. Oh, normally I would say yes to
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that, but tonight no, because I'm going to Casa Benita.
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OK. Or is it Casa Boo nita?
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What it is, since I'm gonna wear my costume and everything.
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That's so fun. Have you been since they?
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Since they not since South Park took it over.
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It's so much better. I grew up going to that place
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and. What is this?
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What? What are we talking?
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About Oh my goodness, Casa Penita there.
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What's Casa? Penita basically not a Colorado
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citizen unless you've eaten at Casa Penita.
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It's like, so it is like a like a, you know how they had those
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carnivals that show up in a town and it's kind of fun, but not
9:33
like Disneyland, which is like fancy you're.
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Kind of putting your life at risk every time you hop on the
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ride because there's a good chance it's going to just spin
9:39
right off of the axle. Yeah.
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I. Feel like Casa Bonita is like
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the carnival version of entertainment restaurants.
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And so you go. In OK, OK.
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And you get your tray and you get like your enchiladas and
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your flag and and then you sit at your table.
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The flag is to refill your food. Your like your sopa piaz and
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your beer. You basically, yeah, those can
10:04
go up and down and you sit around this waterfall and then
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they have like Cliff divers jumping in.
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OK, I know exactly who you're talking about.
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Now. I've heard of because.
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You've seen the South Park episode, right?
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No, because I wasn't allowed to watch South Park.
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And whenever I try to watch South Park I'm like, I think I
10:21
missed the boat on this. I think I wasn't.
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Yeah, it's it's for a special thing.
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So I used to go there and so now I mean the magic show is like
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fully on. Remember how it was so sad when
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it was all broken down and it's like the magic show was like no
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ones there and it was like everything is like out of order.
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It's all functioning now. But the craziest thing, and tell
10:40
me if you do not see this the stalagmite Stalagtite cave.
10:45
Where you walk black parts. Cave.
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No, no, no, not black parts Cave.
10:48
It's in another parts down by the magic show where you've got
10:51
the you know what Stalag Mites and Stalag Tights are.
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Yeah, I do. Ones come up, ones come down,
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right? Yeah, mighty.
10:58
The ones that come from the ground are the mighty ones, and
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then the other ones hang down. They are penises.
11:04
Oh are they Benning offs? I don't know.
11:06
They made them look like paint, like, I kid you not.
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I what? I I there's a picture of me,
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like jumping on one. Yeah.
11:13
No, I think you know they're in the.
11:13
South Park being funny? OK, you tell me.
11:16
You think they really are I? Really think they tried to make
11:19
them look like. What are their names?
11:20
What are South Park, Troy and Matt, Right?
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Yeah, and Matt and I. Really.
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I know we can put a link of this picture of me.
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No, we're not going to do that. But I did jump on it's it's
11:30
funny. Tell me what you think.
11:32
If you think they look like Venus says surf is.
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Just I can't wait. I have not been since the the
11:36
takeover the food. 'S a little better.
11:38
I would be willing to put the picture up here on the show and
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have it censored and then based on the censored image people
11:47
could decide. But.
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Whether or not it looked like a Venus.
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Wait, why would it need to be censored?
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It's like a it's like a statue at a restaurant.
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We didn't censor Center. I would say I I would say
12:01
because. I think he's saying what I was
12:03
doing to it should be censored if I understood you correctly.
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I didn't know you were doing anything to this.
12:08
What are you talking about? Did I miss this part of the
12:11
conversation? I jumped on it and it was funny.
12:15
I. Did miss that.
12:16
How did I miss? That it was funny.
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I'll show you later. It's a funny picture.
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OK, It's I. Really put the bone in Bonita,
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huh? That was funny and Claire dad
12:26
joke. Thanks.
12:27
I'm just uncomfortable. Yeah, okay, well, we can.
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That'll be fun. Which gears send pictures of you
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with a stalagmite? I not sure you're gonna get that
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picture. I'm gonna get.
12:38
I'm gonna get it. I'm.
12:40
Gonna get it. If I have to follow you down
12:42
there and sneak. In by the way, fully don't bring
12:46
anything metal because it's like full on metal detector now.
12:50
Like what? Yes, they made my friend go back
12:52
and put away her wine opener that she had in her purse
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because it was metal. So it feels.
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That's a weapon. Sketchy.
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Yeah. And trusting corkscrews, man.
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Corkscrews her weapons. Yeah, and for sure.
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They hand you a knife at dinner. It's.
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Probably like an airplane knife. You know that airplanes will
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only give you the plastic knives and then you got like the metal
13:13
forks, but you're like a metal fork.
13:14
I could do so much more damage with than a plastic knife.
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You know what I mean? Like.
13:18
I guess it is like a theater. It's like a ticketed, you know,
13:21
theater event. That doesn't make sense.
13:23
I go through metal detectors for shows.
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That makes sense. Yeah, there's a lot of hiding
13:29
spots in there too. If you wanted to do bad things
13:31
and cause of anything, you definitely could.
13:34
We were talking about Scott doing Cliff diving for his
13:38
retirement job and he he really can't do a Cliff dive, but he
13:41
has the world's biggest splash for what do you call it when you
13:47
jump in? Cannonball.
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Cannonball My husband has the biggest cannonball of all times.
13:52
Like breaks records, I promise. And we're like, would that be
13:56
fun when you're eating our tacos?
13:58
Someone cannonball and splashing you?
14:01
It does sound fun. I bet he could juggle his fire
14:03
there, though. Yeah, that'd.
14:05
Be very cool. Yeah, yeah.
14:07
Do you guys go to events like this hoping they pick you, you
14:10
know, for like the volunteer section?
14:11
If they're like, we need one volunteer, volunteer, volunteer,
14:15
they're. Such a great question because
14:17
yes and no. They're like, yes, but I want
14:20
it, but I don't want it. It's like I want to be chosen,
14:22
but I don't want to get up there.
14:23
But I get nervous every time they start scanning the crowd.
14:26
Yeah. Do you get nervous?
14:29
You would be great up there. Thanks, so would.
14:32
You. Is it too late?
14:33
Is it too late for us? I'm going to try tonight.
14:36
You could be the magic show, yeah.
14:38
I feel like you would be a perfect pick because they they
14:43
want to find someone who's like not going to that is like, OK, I
14:47
have experience, I'm comfortable, I'll get up on
14:49
stage. I've done this before.
14:50
It's fine and. And I'll follow your rules and I
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won't like totally show your sleight of hand trick that
14:58
you're trying to do. Yeah, I won't reveal it.
15:01
Yeah. Are you, are you saying that's a
15:02
dig at me because that's what I did in in my job in Mexico.
15:06
Did I tell you that story about? No, what?
15:08
I can't believe you. Your mom was right.
15:10
So you guys, Heather, mom told Heather to stop being so mean to
15:17
me. And do you realize what you just
15:19
said? You started your sentence like
15:21
you started your sentence like. Are you trying to take a dig at
15:24
me? I wasn't trying to.
15:26
I was trying to listen to you just saying.
15:30
I do have one last thing I'd like to end on, which is some
15:33
good news. I don't know if you knew this
15:35
fact, but so this is our 10th episode of our podcast.
15:40
Making it to 10 episodes is a huge deal in the podcasting
15:43
world. Over 90% of podcasts do not make
15:48
it past the 10th episode. Shut the front door.
15:51
Out. Down.
15:52
Really. We're.
15:53
We're there, so it's does. That mean we win like what
15:56
happens now? Do we make money You're doing?
15:58
It Rich. I'm gonna be dumb to get rich
16:00
off it, yeah. So OK, so here's how it breaks
16:03
down. If you make it past three
16:05
episodes, you're in the top 50%. That's 50.
16:10
Percent of podcast. It's hard though, wouldn't you
16:12
say? It's very hard to make a show.
16:14
I would say it's very. Hard.
16:15
Way harder than I ever thought it would be.
16:18
There's a lot that goes into it. There's a lot that goes into it,
16:21
yeah. OK, so 3/3 is 50. 3 is 50%, so
16:25
half of podcasts end after the third episode.
16:28
At 10 episodes you hit the 90% mark where 90% of shows do not
16:35
make it past episode 10. Really, we should show up next
16:39
week just cause. What episode do you think after
16:42
that do you make it into the top 1%?
16:45
20 I'm gonna say 2020. 50 Is it 50?
16:50
It's 21. 21, yes. 21. Just so you know, we are booked
16:56
through that. We have speakers booked through
16:58
the end of the year. We are into January.
17:00
We are happy to. We are at 21 Mother Effer.
17:05
We are in the 1%. Well, we're not quite in the 1%
17:09
yet, but we're planned to be in the 1%.
17:11
We're booked, we're booked to be, we're booked.
17:14
I have what a downer. He like brings us up and then
17:15
he's like, no, not, don't get too excited.
17:18
So pragmatic, all right. We're.
17:20
Just and. Also, we haven't made it past
17:22
the 10th episode. We're like, we're only maybe
17:25
like 1518 minutes in. So it's true.
17:29
See how we do shoot, we're 1518 minutes.
17:31
That's too long. Let's get we'll.
17:32
Cut half that banter. Yeah, we're going to cut that.
17:36
We got to get to the 10th episode.
17:38
We have to bring our guest on and bring it, make it official.
17:40
Let's do it so. Exciting though.
17:41
Good job, friend, good job. Yeah, good job.
17:44
Yeah. Thanks, Clay.
17:46
All right, shall we? We shall.
17:49
OK, there's a lot of acronyms in this intro.
17:53
We're just going to not do Clay's rule of acronym defining
17:57
until our guest comes on, OK? Blakely did not clear this with
17:59
me before we started, but anyway, please continue.
18:01
I know I did. Here we go.
18:04
Our guest today is Maureen MO Berkner Boy, the founder and CEO
18:08
of C2 IQ. She has leveraged the power of
18:12
technology to build scalable and measurable learning platforms,
18:15
including everyday Inclusion and C2 IQ.
18:19
She's the recipient of the Colorado Technology Association
18:22
2023 Entrepreneur of the Year Award.
18:24
Oh wow, that's impressive. Has been a leader and advisor
18:28
for the Fortune 500 on their culture and employee experience
18:32
strategies and my favorite part of this intro, her daily mantra
18:36
is rock your moxie and do the next right thing.
18:40
So MO, welcome to not all business.
18:47
Hi everyone, Blakely here. This episode of Not All Business
18:51
is brought to you by yours truly, where strategist Cindy
18:54
Forgard helps growth minded leaders navigate pivotal moments
18:57
with confidence. I worked with Cindy when I was
19:00
CEO of Task Gray, and she's what I call a CEO whisperer.
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She helped us execute a complete brand pivot, boosted me up as a
19:08
leader, and set us up to hit aggressive growth targets that
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led to our successful exit. Whether you've hit a growth
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plateau or you're evolving your company, maybe you're at a
19:19
career crossroads. Yours truly provides the
19:21
strategic guidance you need. Because what got you here won't
19:25
always get you where you want to go.
19:27
So sometimes you need a Cindy to help push you forward.
19:31
Visit itsyourstruly.com and mention Not all business for
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complimentary strategy consultation.
19:38
OK, back to the show. It is phenomenal to be here.
19:46
Thank you, MO for being here. You're so fun already.
19:49
Just look at your fun background and all of your books and all of
19:54
your awards. That's no joke.
19:55
That award I, when you said, oh wow, Blakely, I was like, I knew
19:58
that, but like hearing it again, I'm like, that is impressive.
20:02
How did you get that? Were you nominated for that?
20:04
I'm like, did you know you were kind of up for it or what was
20:06
the process there? I've been a bridesmaid so many
20:10
times. So close.
20:15
Yeah, yeah. And so I was nominated, but
20:19
actually in 2023 I was like, no, this is the year it's happening.
20:24
You knew it. Yeah, it was time.
20:27
It was time. Yeah, rights made too many
20:29
times. Yeah, you're like.
20:31
And we've done some really phenomenal stuff.
20:33
So. Yeah, it's a time, but I deserve
20:35
it. All right.
20:36
I'll also love this part. Rock your moxie.
20:38
So tell me about that. Wasn't mean to rock your moxie.
20:41
Yeah, I think it so first, just like, what does moxie mean?
20:47
I think that is right. It's about having spirit and
20:50
spunk and courage and backbone and being bold and determined.
20:57
And I found myself in my mid 30s in a board room with a bunch of
21:02
middle-aged white guys, all great guys, a bunch of oh.
21:05
Imagine that. Yeah, right.
21:07
Shocking. And I looked around and I
21:12
realized that I was trying to be a middle-aged white guy.
21:15
Oh. And at that point in time, I was
21:18
like, you know what? I'm I'm never going to be as
21:21
good a middle-aged white guy as them because I'm not one.
21:25
And so from here on out, I'm showing up as authentically me.
21:29
And that meant rocking my moxie. That meant being bold, that
21:33
meant taking risks, that meant showing up fully.
21:37
It means not being afraid to have some fun while also doing
21:42
really serious work and just bringing it.
21:46
I think, you know, as far as we know, we got one spin around
21:50
this life and I don't want to die and regret that I didn't
21:55
rock my moxie. I love that.
21:58
I love that. So much.
22:00
So I want to back up just a little bit.
22:03
Sorry, I want to back up to how you noticed that you were trying
22:10
to be a middle-aged white guy. Like what was it that you
22:14
noticed about your actions that were counter to who you were or
22:19
just that you noticed the similarities or striving toward
22:21
specifically? Can you give me like a couple
22:23
examples of yeah, when I like? Yeah, when I realized I have a
22:28
running commentary of jokes in my head or right, that I was
22:31
like censoring, like I wasn't being as funny as I usually am.
22:35
I wasn't dropping the F bomb. I wasn't.
22:38
Yeah. I wasn't challenging things the
22:42
way I did when I wasn't sitting in those wardrooms or sitting in
22:46
those meetings. Yeah.
22:48
Like I was, I was dimming my shine.
22:50
Do you know why? Like you just said, you had a
22:53
running commentary of jokes. That's your moxie.
22:55
When I am sitting in a room with a bunch of middle-aged white
22:58
guys, I'm just sitting there paranoid thinking about what's
23:01
my next sentence. Is it going to sound smart
23:02
enough? Is it going to have the right
23:04
words? And so all your headspace is
23:06
like, how do I fit in? How do I fit in?
23:08
How do I fit in? So of course you're not rocking
23:10
your moxie right? Like.
23:13
It's impossible. One of the things that I do with
23:16
particularly young women and anybody that's marginalized
23:20
around that whole imposter syndrome bullshit as I have like
23:25
if you're thinking like, oh, I just, I'm not going to say my
23:28
thing because I don't think it's as smart.
23:29
I don't think it's as well. I don't think it's, as I tell
23:33
people to spend 10 minutes in a meeting and rate what people are
23:37
saying on a scale of one to five.
23:38
How, how smart was that? How intuitive is that?
23:42
How much did that add to the conversation?
23:45
And then if people are digging 5 all the time, make sure you're
23:51
saying something really, really incredible.
23:53
I guarantee most of the time they're going to be.
23:56
That was a 2. That was a two.
23:58
It was maybe a three one. They hit four and you start to
24:02
see what dudes are saying is not that earth shattering.
24:10
Right. Jump in there because if you're
24:11
not sharing your brilliance, nobody is going to know that
24:16
you've got that brilliance inside you.
24:18
And so if you use that Dick, I mean, it is, it is pretty much
24:23
foolproof. I've never had somebody come
24:25
back and say, Oh my gosh, I'm, I'm, I'm sitting in a room of
24:29
really brilliant people and I, I really shouldn't be there.
24:31
It's more like, Oh my gosh, working with a bunch of idiots.
24:35
I should. I should speak up.
24:38
So how much of that is when you're communicating, would you
24:43
say what percentage is what you're saying the actual words
24:48
versus the confidence with which you speak those words?
24:53
And you know, how would you say that rates like importance wise?
24:57
Yeah, I mean, we know this. There's been so much research
25:00
done on this, right? It's almost all visual.
25:03
It's almost all body language and tone and how you're holding
25:08
yourself. Now, I think there's also, we
25:12
don't want to say this is what a leader looks like, right?
25:18
Because you can be right. That's where we start to say
25:22
women have to show up like middle-aged white guys.
25:25
I think they're like the, the people that knock my socks off
25:29
that I listen to are like the quiet confidence, right?
25:32
Like where they, they're just sitting there and they're, they
25:35
are owning their space, but not like, you know, bro coming at
25:39
you owning their space. They're, they're set.
25:42
So you don't have to be, you don't have to be flexing.
25:47
You have to be sitting right in your moxie.
25:52
Yeah, I love that. Blakely, did you hear that?
25:54
You don't have to be flexing. Blakely's always flexing.
25:57
She's always flexing. Like physically flexing.
26:00
Flexed on this pad? No, I did once.
26:02
Roll it back you weed. You definitely did once, did you
26:05
just. Flex about how you've never
26:06
flexed on this show. Yeah, yeah, I don't need to
26:09
because I'm quiet flexed all day long.
26:13
She flexes on the inside. I.
26:18
That's so stupid. Oh my.
26:21
Gosh, I can't Giggles. Can we stop the Heather question
26:25
train for a second? We got a backup.
26:27
Backup C2 IQ. What does C2 IQ stand for?
26:31
I I think I know what that IQ stands for.
26:33
My IQ tells me I know. But so latest company is C2 IQ
26:40
and we make human risk as measurable as financial risk.
26:45
We do that with an assessment that is on 2 core Skills change
26:53
starts with AC, Resilience and human connection starts with AC.
26:58
So change in connection. So what's your C2 IQ?
27:02
Right. How got it?
27:04
How? Skilled are you at change,
27:05
Resilience and human. Connection.
27:08
OK. And does this have anything to
27:09
do with this phenomenon of like of the quiet cracking that we
27:15
teased out in the introduction and investigating that or
27:19
detecting it early in companies or what's what's your position
27:22
on that? Yeah, 100%.
27:25
So one of the things that I, Joe can say that I am unemployable.
27:36
I am an entrepreneur as entrepreneur, right.
27:39
So I've been, I've spent a good part of my career making work
27:44
not suck, right? And doing that through culture,
27:48
right? How do you create cultures where
27:50
people can show up and do their best work right, and thrive and
27:55
not dim their shine and have their voice be heard?
27:59
And one of the things that I'm doing and solving that problem
28:04
is always looking for how we can scale, right?
28:06
Where are different ways that we can do that?
28:08
And I was paying attention because of my own crisis, 2024
28:14
that could not have ended quickly enough.
28:19
And I was paying attention to the stories that people were
28:22
telling me where people like in in particular, high performing
28:28
women who had gotten their families and their businesses
28:32
through COVID, right? They'd gone, they, they had,
28:36
they'd shifted work from home. They've done all the policies
28:41
right. They had held it all together
28:43
and 2023 and 24 broke them that it was just too much for too
28:49
long. And I was, I was one of those
28:51
people. And then I started looking at
28:53
the data and looking at the neuroscience and all of the
28:55
things that were were behind this and saw particularly right
28:59
now, when everybody is terrified that AI is going to take their
29:01
job, they're not going to quit, right?
29:04
And they and they don't necessarily want people to know
29:08
that they're either. I mean, there's so many terms
29:11
now, job hugging, but there's I don't.
29:14
I don't know this one. Yeah, right.
29:16
Where I I hate it here and I'm going to stay because everybody
29:21
that's out there looking is telling me there's nothing and
29:24
AI is right taking the job and it is yeah, it's a.
29:27
Real threat. It's a real threat.
29:30
The the idea behind this was how and this.
29:34
I won't walk out on neuroscience because I can, I'll go down that
29:38
route so fast. But in a nutshell, we get really
29:44
dumb during change because we're in amygdala hijack and then we
29:50
have prefrontal cortex overload after too much change for too
29:54
long. So we get burnt out.
29:58
And so there are the level of change that's happened since
30:02
2019. Humans aren't built for it.
30:05
And so it was really looking to solve at the same time the human
30:10
connection. We are in a crisis of loneliness
30:12
at work. 2/3 of people are feeling lonely.
30:15
KPMG last week released a study. Oh my gosh, 99% of people said
30:21
that they would be totally open to having an AI buddy at work,
30:26
right? What a trusted friend companion.
30:28
Because 2/3 of people are lonely at work.
30:31
No, no people, no, there is no replacement for human
30:35
connection. I want to stop right now and
30:38
understand who is saying that. Yeah, right.
30:41
Shocking. Accountants we're.
30:43
Seeing. All the accountants.
30:45
Yeah. Well, and the age of burnout
30:49
right now age for millennials and below is 25.
30:56
Wait, the average age of burnout 25?
30:59
Years old. I don't know if that's super new
31:03
for I had my first burnout at 30 and I had my second one at 45I.
31:12
Think What was your first burnout?
31:13
Where were you? What?
31:14
What was going on? I was working for a sales first
31:17
consulting firm and it was scaling very rapidly.
31:23
Like I for perspective, I think I was employee 9 or 12 or
31:27
somewhere around there and they ultimately exited to IBM for
31:32
like, I don't know, $500 million, like huge, massive
31:35
growth. And so I was around the clock.
31:38
I had clients, you know, I'm on like in the middle and I call it
31:41
Japan. I'm flying out to Amsterdam.
31:44
I'm sitting at 1 market at Salesforce and just all around
31:47
the clock, clients, clients, clients, clients.
31:51
And I woke up and I'm like, I'm 30, I'm single, I'm lonely as
31:56
hell. I'm never going to meet someone
31:58
this way. I want kids.
32:01
Like the clock was ticking and I just, I didn't know like what my
32:06
purpose was. I had no clue.
32:08
So I quit. So I quietly quit.
32:11
But like, was that like a 24 hour decision or was that like
32:15
in your mind over three months how you were going to quit?
32:17
Or was it just like, you hit a wall and you're like, I'm done,
32:20
sorry, I'm out? I hit a wall.
32:23
I knew when I hit the wall it it was somewhat strategic and that
32:27
I got bonused out right. And so I knew when my bonus was
32:34
going to be. And so I had a three month plan
32:37
to quit right after that check. And it was funny my my employer
32:41
caught wind of it. This is brilliant, by the way.
32:44
This is a a hint. Well, this is actually kind of
32:46
weird now that I say it out loud, but you know how?
32:50
Let's go. Was it at the hotel room when he
32:53
was in his boxer shorts? Was it that it was?
32:58
Your face was like oh damn. No, this is a different story.
33:02
Different. Different time, but they did
33:06
catch wind that I was going to quit and we got into a bidding
33:09
war. So the, the consulting company
33:13
and Salesforce was like a bidding war like, oh, we'll give
33:15
you this money, we'll give you this money.
33:16
We're going to give you more raise, we'll give you more
33:17
raise. And it was like really
33:18
flattering and nice because all of a sudden I could be making
33:22
like twice as much as I was making.
33:24
But it I think it goes to show like I was so burnt out I could
33:27
give a rat's ass about how much money they were going to offer
33:29
me, but then my current employer knew how much I cared about
33:36
this. Sounds like the vain vapid part
33:38
like. Oh, I thought that was the last
33:40
10 seconds. Oh, OK, now it OK.
33:43
I, I, I, I invest a lot in my skin care routine.
33:47
And so he sent me a box. He found out what products I
33:50
used and sent me a box of them. And we're talking like $50 face
33:55
cream. And he sent me like a dozen face
33:57
creams washes. It was crazy, but it really felt
34:01
so personal and thoughtful about.
34:03
I was like, oh, maybe I should stay.
34:05
And I was like, Nah, give me my bonus check.
34:07
I'm out. So OK, I think you got the
34:11
question wrong. I just just feel like the like,
34:16
when was your sad low burnout and you're like, well, it was
34:19
when these billion dollar companies were fighting over me
34:22
and throwing all this money and then when the other side was
34:25
like sending me boxes of face cream and it was hard because I
34:28
just didn't know like. I was free to go.
34:32
I was lonely. I was single.
34:34
I was sad I couldn't work anymore.
34:36
I was terrible. The point of the story that the
34:41
companies really didn't care that much and maybe weren't even
34:46
prepared to even handle that type of conversation, that
34:49
you're burned out. So you didn't say anything.
34:51
You're just like, I'm ready to quit.
34:53
I'm going to get out of here. There's no way this is going to
34:55
be fixed. They're not going to listen to
34:57
me. I'm not going to be valued in
34:58
that way. It's interesting, in my 30s I
35:02
didn't really think about companies giving a rat's ass
35:04
about burning out. I don't think we cared back
35:07
then. That was on me, right?
35:09
It felt like it was on me now second time around.
35:13
I hope it's better. I hope it's relatable.
35:17
It was worst. Oh my story I don't have.
35:20
I hope it's a better burnout story.
35:22
I was on the under my desk crying after I had to fire two
35:25
people who were married to each other, by the way, in a riff.
35:29
See how sad that is? But that's not burnout.
35:32
Yeah, it is. Well, because of everything of
35:35
surrounding it, I'm saying. That's a job you had to do.
35:39
I'm just it's. True.
35:41
My point is like that was the 30s was the era of office space
35:45
right? Like.
35:47
The movie Office Space. Yes, the movie Office Space.
35:49
Like we got rage, we hit computers, we quit, we left, we
35:54
went and worked at the place with the flare.
35:56
We just went and took care of ourselves.
35:58
And then over time it's gotten progressively worse.
36:02
I don't know why it's gotten progressively worse, but I do
36:04
think it's like worse now. And so by second burnout, it
36:10
felt like companies should care and companies should recognize
36:13
it because of the statistic that MO just gave.
36:17
I also came across where is the number?
36:19
I wrote it down somewhere, this Fortune article, which I kind of
36:21
call bullshit on this statistic, but I'm going to read it anyway.
36:24
It said 430. There's a $438 billion loss in
36:29
global productivity just in one year from quiet cracking.
36:35
This is I. See that because I don't where.
36:39
Is that number based out of? I don't know people who are
36:42
like, what did you say, MO? Like frozen, like dumb and also
36:46
paralyzed? What about the amygdala?
36:49
100% and yeah, I can get to like why it is the rate of change,
36:54
right? Just five years ago, companies
36:57
had two planned changes now it's 10.
37:01
And then if you look at how the world is changing outside, our
37:07
brain can't doesn't know the difference.
37:09
We really are walking around with Blizzard brains like we
37:12
think that we're these higher order thinkers and we're not.
37:16
And so we have all of the change that's happening.
37:18
We have political unrest around the globe.
37:21
We have right people that it's in their best interest if we're
37:26
hating our neighbors, right? Because then it's getting them
37:29
clicks and it's getting different things.
37:31
So we are in a state of constant, our brain feels like
37:37
we are under constant attack. And so why is it worse, right?
37:41
And so people are cracking. You can't think, think about
37:44
your worst days. You're not showing up.
37:47
You literally cannot show up from a neurobiological
37:51
standpoint and do good work. And so we've got this epidemic
37:57
of change, fatigue and disconnect and disengagement and
38:01
those two things crashing together, the quiet and then
38:05
people desperate to keep a paycheck.
38:08
And so they are not going to let their employer know, right, how
38:14
bad they are. Because when the next riff
38:15
comes, she's a pain in the ass, right?
38:18
She's, yeah, she's got all of these things happening.
38:24
She's going to be on the chopping.
38:25
Block on the list. Yeah.
38:27
And I mean, that was really that out of out of me just kind of
38:32
paying attention, right and listening to people's stories
38:36
and my own story. It was really how do we, how do
38:41
we give people a path forward? How do we give people agency in
38:43
all of this? And that is right.
38:46
How do people understand that they can become change resilient
38:50
that, that, that those are hard and fast skills and and part of
38:54
it was just for me really to understand and be able to say,
38:57
how can I walk myself out of out of this, these dark woods?
39:02
So can we dig into that a little bit, MO?
39:04
Would you tell us like your your burnout and what those dark
39:07
woods look like for you and how you came out the other side?
39:10
I, I think what's really interesting, and particularly
39:13
with people who have spent their whole life being high
39:16
performers, we generally I, I, I wrote some books years ago and I
39:21
had a chapter about, right, you can't be a superhero.
39:27
You have to build your own Justice League, right?
39:31
And a part of that is we're, we get to where we are because
39:35
we're problem solvers, because we're the ones that get shit
39:38
done, because we're the ones that.
39:40
And there comes a point in time when things hit hard and fast.
39:43
And for me, it was, I had some really scary significant health
39:48
issues pop up that ended up being nothing.
39:50
But, you know, one of them was a brain tumor that could have been
39:53
a real thing because of a family history.
39:56
Didn't end up being that. But thanks for our healthcare
39:59
system. I spent four years, I'm sorry,
40:01
four months not knowing. Wow.
40:05
We were kind of tip of the spear.
40:07
I won't get political, but a lot of the tech that we used to have
40:11
was around inclusion. And so somehow that became a
40:15
dirty word. So I was watching our clients
40:18
cry as they were telling us that they couldn't renew even though
40:22
they loved our product. They were seeing results because
40:24
of politics. I could keep going.
40:28
Like it was just like too many things and none of my skills
40:34
were working. Like normally I'm like, OK, I'm
40:36
going to go hug some trees. I'm going to get outside,
40:40
meditate more. I'm going to like up my steps.
40:43
I'm going to friends, I'm going to do these things.
40:47
And and literally, I couldn't get metaphorically up off the
40:52
floor. Yeah, you were just shut down.
40:55
I I I had nothing left to give and it was when I started crying
40:59
every day. Yeah.
41:01
Do you mean? Like that I was like, this is
41:06
like, I I hit rock bottom and I'm incredibly lucky that I have
41:14
a partner who saw me through that right?
41:17
Like it was like my back on everything.
41:20
And I told him like our 30th anniversary, like as I'm crying,
41:24
like I love you so much and I know I suck to be married to
41:27
this year when every year we have a thing where we re up, we
41:34
say, are you in for another year?
41:36
With your husband, your partner, That's amazing.
41:40
So every year on our anniversary, we tell each other,
41:45
we ask are you in for another year?
41:47
And so for 31 years, we've said yes.
41:52
And if you say yes, you can't bail during that, you're in for
41:57
another year, right? So then we're going to work
42:00
through anything that comes up. It's great.
42:05
Cool thing to do on your anniversary.
42:09
What we do is trade chores for a month and we decide their chores
42:13
suck. Worse than our chores.
42:16
I love that you have chores. Of course you have chores.
42:18
So was there ever a year where that was hard to say yes or
42:25
where you were like, you know, I'm going to say this, but I
42:27
don't want to say this or I mean, 30 years is a long time.
42:33
And I've read before like it's like you are, if you stay in a
42:36
marriage that long, you are kind of marrying the same person.
42:40
You're choosing to marry that person over and over as they
42:43
change and evolve into a new person.
42:45
So you in a way, you are marrying different people over
42:47
the years because if you're evolving, you're changing and
42:50
growing. And is that still a fit 100?
42:54
Yeah. I mean, I could do a whole, we
42:58
could do a whole thing on healthy, strong marriages and I
43:02
could, I could send you the notes from a couple of of nieces
43:05
that I've married. But I think it is one of those
43:11
things that is about adaptability too.
43:14
Yeah, right. Those change resilience skills.
43:17
You apply that you apply those same skills to marriage, to
43:20
relationships, to business, to the people that you work with
43:24
and adaptability, right, and optimism as a skill set, people.
43:29
That is a mindset, but it's really a skill set and it can be
43:31
measured. What are those skills and how do
43:34
you lean into those skills? So to answer your question,
43:37
Heather, no, there's never been a year that it's been hard.
43:41
I still like the best decision I ever made was my husband.
43:44
And because right, he's there it when I had an absolute shit
43:50
year, right, and I have a spouse that's crying every day as her
43:55
business is going off a Cliff and health issues and and to
44:01
just be steady on. I mean, there are days, but then
44:05
I'm like, damn it, I upped for a year, right, like nothing is
44:12
rosy forever. Like like all the time.
44:15
If if it is, then you're not being honest with yourself, but
44:18
I think there is that. How are you adapting and growing
44:21
and learning together and and applying those same things to
44:25
business partnerships, right to the people on your team?
44:30
I think that that these these are humanly like they are
44:35
uniquely human skills and they're skills that we can get
44:39
better at. I think that's the piece that
44:41
for me when I was doing the research, not just because
44:45
again, I like to look around corners in terms of what are the
44:48
gaps? What are we not solving for in
44:50
the work experience? And seeing this epidemic of
44:55
change, fatigue and burnout, it's like, well, what's the how
45:00
can I help solve that? And it was that was actually the
45:04
thing that helped me come out of my burnout was creating, right?
45:09
Creating something unique and new that would help to solve.
45:15
So let's dig into that a little bit because I think if I could
45:19
go back in the few times where I've experienced burnout, I wish
45:23
I would have recognized the signs earlier because I think I
45:28
didn't have to go down the hole as far as I did.
45:31
So what are a couple of early indicators of burnout in your
45:37
experience? Yeah.
45:38
I think they're so different for different people.
45:42
I think it is for me when I wasn't when work was starting to
45:48
feel like a grind, because again, I'm an entrepreneur, like
45:51
I'm my own boss, right? And when I was not getting any
45:56
joy, you know, even when we were hearing these incredible stories
46:00
and getting case studies and people saying this tech is like
46:03
changing my team, it's changed my life.
46:05
I'm the I was like, whatever. Seriously.
46:13
Yeah. Right like that that was that
46:16
was should have been an early sign to me when the things when
46:22
I started to not really like I'm willing to dance anytime
46:30
anywhere. I dance frequently in my house.
46:34
I have a karaoke machine. I will turn on the strobe lights
46:39
and dance around singing. I love This is why we're
46:42
friends, yes. And when I wasn't like the
46:46
karaoke was getting dusty in the corner when I really when I was
46:52
thinking it was just exhausting to have to have conversations
46:55
with people like like all of those pieces.
47:01
And again, I am incredibly privileged in the fact that I
47:04
had a great partner and have a great partner and I don't work a
47:15
minimum wage job, right. Like I, I had the opportunity to
47:21
actually Blanc right. I took I took a sabbatical.
47:25
I spent a week up in the friends cabin.
47:29
I didn't have any tech, any humans.
47:32
I just sat there right and cried when I needed to cry and journal
47:38
and got my shit together. This is why I think it's
47:41
different now though. Like when I was talking about
47:45
that earlier burnout, I get it. Like I had a ton of privilege
47:49
and opportunity and I knew that. Like I felt it, I knew I could
47:52
come back from a sabbatical and return.
47:56
And so maybe it was less burnout.
47:58
I was just like, I need a break, right?
48:00
And because there was opportunity abound, the second
48:04
burnout MO, I'm just like nodding my head.
48:07
That's exactly how I felt. And I put on 40 lbs in one year.
48:11
I mean, talk about stress eating.
48:14
I was not sleeping. I like would just sit in my
48:18
room, quiet away just because I couldn't even handle anything.
48:22
So all those things. But when I think about the
48:26
environment now, it's happening to young people in such a
48:29
different way because they don't know that they're going to get a
48:33
job again. Like, I think that's like the
48:35
change in what you're saying of this time is it's not just
48:40
striking us at our middle age when we're like the breadwinner
48:43
or whatever. It's striking our kids like
48:47
they're burning out, yes. At 25.
48:50
Yeah. Oh yes, that was the stat you
48:52
gave. 17 years earlier right than average 25 and that is a
48:59
factor of our environment, right of of the speed and rate of
49:03
change, right. We again, we are
49:05
neurobiologically not designed for this.
49:08
We're not designed for social media and gaming and the things
49:14
that unless there's actually great research people that the
49:17
people that are gaming where they're actually in conversation
49:20
with people right where they're teaming when they're that's
49:22
actually that's really. Discord and stuff.
49:25
Yeah, versus the the solo gaming.
49:29
But people like we're in a loneliness epidemic.
49:32
I said almost we're in a loneliness academic epidemic.
49:38
And so it's all these factors coming together.
49:42
So it really is. How do you not let it get so
49:45
far? And then how can we give people
49:49
agency and control? Yeah.
49:51
But how do we personally not let it get that far?
49:54
Or how do we as leaders not let it get that far?
49:58
Is it my responsibility to detect and like, protect myself
50:01
from my own burnout, or is it a leader's responsibility to
50:05
protect our teams? And like, how do we help them
50:10
before they get there? Yeah, it's an that's an and this
50:15
is not a false choice. So as an individual, right, what
50:20
are the things that I'm doing to ensure that I'm taking care of
50:26
my mental health and that I, again, I want to take this back
50:29
because this was the light bulb for me that these are actual
50:33
skills to get better at. There are a set of change,
50:37
resilience and human connection skills that you can learn, you
50:42
can lean into, right? You can say maybe I'm not great
50:46
at optimism right there. That is a skill set.
50:50
How can I write it? It's like muscles there.
50:54
I did the flex, we said, right, problem solving, confidence,
51:01
persistence, all of those things can be learned.
51:04
And so I think when people understand that human
51:06
connection, I can learn social warmth, I can learn
51:10
conversational engagement, I can learn empathy and listening, I
51:14
can learn psychological safety. And so it's creating awareness,
51:19
right? And then saying, how am I
51:21
leaning into this? How am I getting better at these
51:23
things so that I am better at change and I am better at
51:26
connection so that I understand that neurobiologically, it's
51:31
going to send, it's going to make me dumb and it's going to
51:33
make me scared. If I can be better at cycling
51:37
through that, I can get back to being smart and I can get back
51:41
to feeling really connected. And so as leaders, it's also
51:46
right. We don't want to spot the signs.
51:50
We want to prevent. We were talking about this a bit
51:57
ago, Blakely, where we were talking about not growth at all
52:02
costs. Yeah, you want me to get on my
52:05
soapbox? And that most businesses are A,
52:08
not life or death and B, the second companies take on
52:13
investors is the second you are are on a different mission and
52:19
it's typically not your people. And there is just a way we can
52:23
run our companies at a different pace and still be profitable and
52:26
still be sustainable. And that would be my theory of
52:30
why we're seeing so much of what's going on today.
52:34
So we just aren't building cultures on people and a
52:38
sustainable pace with sustainable profit.
52:42
It's the Chick-fil-A model, right?
52:43
Or the what's the other one? Not HomeGoods, but the Hobby
52:47
Lobby or you know, where they have Sundays off with the entire
52:49
company no matter what and they're always like one of the
52:51
top rated things. It's yes, it's it's possible.
52:55
It is possible, but it's just a slower pace.
52:59
And what the F is wrong with a slower pace?
53:02
I just that's the soapbox. Well, I'm right, there's all the
53:07
research. Kind of, but yeah.
53:08
There's all the research coming out on on four day work weeks.
53:12
There are right, the whole 8 hour day, right That was made-up
53:17
that was to get rid of child labor law, right, child labor.
53:20
So we're literally trying not to kill children like none of them,
53:25
none of the way we have work designed.
53:28
And so I think there is the how do you, how do you model things
53:34
as a leader, right? In terms of how do you pay
53:36
attention? How do you have some metrics
53:38
measuring these things? And I was talking about
53:42
measuring windshield, not rearview, right?
53:45
If you're doing an employee engagement survey, that's
53:47
already done. If you are doing exit interviews
53:50
too late, you right, you need to be interviewing this like the
53:55
stay interviews. What's Why are you staying with
53:58
us? That's fun.
54:00
Right. And having round tables with
54:03
groups of people where you're just like, hey, what?
54:06
How's change feeling around here?
54:07
How's connection feeling around here?
54:09
How's the culture? What can we do?
54:10
What should we start? What should we stop, right?
54:13
What should we continue? What sucks, right?
54:17
If you could wave a magic wand, what are the things that we
54:20
could make better? I keep on my desk.
54:24
It's an old book, an oldie, but a goodie.
54:28
Small Giants. It was written 20 years ago and
54:31
it's companies that choose to be great instead of big.
54:34
And. Right that it is about how do
54:38
you become good for your, good for your employees, good for
54:43
your community. Oh, shockingly, the business
54:47
results are there right there. There's so much data that
54:50
somehow it's been, it's been shown as we think of it as soft
54:56
and it's not soft at all. You can't, AI can take right,
55:01
can do a lot of the automated stuff.
55:03
You still have the 30% humans in the loop that if if those people
55:10
are not cared for right feel like they are heard, seen and
55:15
valued. You're getting dumb scared
55:18
people working for. Exactly.
55:21
That's so well said. We are starting to run out of
55:25
time. But before we let you go, well,
55:27
I want to ask like if you had to sum up your success.
55:30
You have had so much success. I know that you were beaten down
55:34
in this most recent turn in the DEI stuff, but you have helped
55:38
Fortune 500 companies. You have been at the top, top of
55:42
your game. And then you got kind of crushed
55:44
down and then you stood back up and you have pivoted again and
55:48
again. So if you could kind of sum up
55:50
your secret to success personally, what would you say?
55:54
Yeah, I think that's one of one of the things that made made
55:58
last year so hard because one of the secrets to my success is I'm
56:01
gritty as fuck. Love it.
56:05
And. Yeah, right.
56:07
Like I it's one of those things where persistence, sorry, I
56:13
don't know, You're you're probably Clay.
56:14
You're probably gonna have to edit that out.
56:16
Oh. No, no we don't.
56:18
No, that's absolutely so. Yeah, it it is one of those
56:22
that, you know, I love, I love a good challenge and so.
56:26
But it's that coupled with curiosity.
56:29
I'm just innately curious about how to make things better that
56:36
it is. I think the whole thing about,
56:39
you know, find your passion. Oh, I think that's bullshit.
56:43
Oh my gosh, it's such bullshit. Thank you for saying that out
56:46
loud. Gosh.
56:49
I, I think it actually paralyzes a lot of people in terms of not
56:53
like, I don't what's my passion? I don't know what my passion is.
56:55
I should have a passion. It's like you don't know what
56:57
your passion is. What you're going to find is
56:59
what you're good at, right? And then what lights you up?
57:03
And that's gonna leave bread crumbs.
57:05
And you're gonna build though, along those bread crumbs along
57:08
the way. The word suddenly you are
57:10
working on purpose, right? Something that lights you up
57:13
that you might be really passionate about, but it's not
57:16
for most people. It doesn't come and, like, knock
57:18
you on the head. And so there's that curiosity
57:22
piece of how can I make things better?
57:24
How can I make work better? What's Heather like?
57:27
How does she tick? How can I be thinking about this
57:30
differently? Like I'm just innately like I'm
57:32
like a 2 year old right about everything.
57:34
Why, what, why tell me more and then and community.
57:40
I've always loved being around really smart, funny people who
57:46
challenge me. So when I kind of pieced
57:51
together like this, this collage of what I've done, right, it's
57:57
the grit and the curiosity in the community, like in
58:00
connection that has just led me to, oh, there's this, there's
58:06
this I, I have, you could say, you could either say that I've
58:11
had five successful businesses or I've had five failed
58:14
businesses, depending on how you look at it.
58:16
Perspective, right? Yeah.
58:19
And so I think there's, there's also that the willingness to be,
58:23
you know, the curiosity and the grit combined to be able to say
58:26
this isn't working. That's fantastic.
58:30
I have loved this conversation so much.
58:32
MO and I, even though I've known you for a while now, I've I've
58:36
learned even more. Thank you for sharing your
58:39
story. Thank you for being vulnerable
58:40
with us. You know, when I think about
58:43
what we've talked through today, it just really resonates this
58:47
concept of being honest with ourselves as individual
58:52
employees, being honest with ourselves as leaders into what
58:55
kind of mental state we are in. And thank you for acknowledging
59:00
the change. Because when you said that, it's
59:02
like, well, yes, that's why I feel like this.
59:06
Like, thank you someone for acknowledging what we've been
59:09
through and where we're also headed in this really uncertain,
59:14
unknown things changing by the day all around us from a
59:18
technology perspective feels different.
59:20
And I'm Gen. X and it still feels different
59:23
than anything so far. This is very different than just
59:26
the Internet. I mean, it's just the
59:28
uncertainty at scale is bigger than it's ever been.
59:32
And so taking that fact and acknowledging how our brains are
59:38
impacted by that is fascinating to me.
59:41
And so leaders, you are missing missing the whole thing if you
59:45
just try to push your people harder for fear of losing their
59:49
jobs because they are afraid, this is not the time to exploit
59:52
that. This is the time to dig into
59:54
that. This is the time to enable them
59:58
make like to most point a proactive plan to avoid burnout
1:00:01
ahead of time instead of dealing with after the fact.
1:00:05
If you, if this is resonating with you at all, please, please
1:00:08
reach out to MO at C2 IQ. She's got product behind this
1:00:11
that can help. She's got consulting behind this
1:00:13
that can help and she gets it. This is a brain thing.
1:00:16
This isn't just a fluffy, you know, warm and fuzzy kind of
1:00:21
soft skills thing. This is actually how our brains
1:00:24
are working and what what's happening.
1:00:25
So don't miss out on that. Thank you so much MO for being
1:00:29
here. Before I let you go, we do have
1:00:31
one quick little question that we ask of our guests.
1:00:34
And we answered ourselves, which is what brought a smile to your
1:00:37
face this week. So I'll give you a second to
1:00:40
think about it. Unless do you already know?
1:00:42
I feel like you were already going to say something.
1:00:45
Well, it was our 31st anniversary, OK?
1:00:50
Did you want us? The right answer?
1:00:52
Yeah, Yeah. Are you in?
1:00:53
Are you in for another year? And for another year, in fact,
1:00:57
statically in for another year. Oh, that's wonderful.
1:01:01
How'd you guys celebrate? Like we're dorks, we we spend
1:01:06
the day planning, right? What are our goals?
1:01:09
Oh. My.
1:01:11
Gosh, what are? Our goals as an individual, what
1:01:15
are our goals as a couple, what are our goals for our family?
1:01:19
And then what are our business, health, all the things.
1:01:24
And then we went out and had a phenomenal tequila flight.
1:01:28
OK, that Nelson. Now you're talking.
1:01:30
Now you're talking. I.
1:01:32
Was going to say that sounds very sweet.
1:01:33
Can you imagine if the answer was Casa Bonita?
1:01:38
See you tonight. Nice call back, all right.
1:01:42
Who else wants to go? Today it was my son's 18th
1:01:47
birthday and he got a letter in the mail.
1:01:50
Heather, you're going to love it.
1:01:52
She got his first college acceptance letter from Fort
1:01:57
Collins. Oh CSU Oh, he applied to CSU.
1:02:02
He. Did.
1:02:03
OK, well, I know. Congratulations.
1:02:05
I just felt. Great.
1:02:07
To get the first one like yes, you know.
1:02:10
It's happening. There's one.
1:02:12
Yeah, it's a great school too. It's a great school.
1:02:15
Great time to visit, take a tour.
1:02:16
He's never been. He's never.
1:02:18
Been. No, but we're, we're on our way.
1:02:20
We're going to come up and check.
1:02:21
OK, well make sure you call me because I will actually make it
1:02:24
be fun. Wait real quick.
1:02:26
Be well. Yes.
1:02:27
On our Instagram, Blakely, you posted that we were featured.
1:02:31
Our podcast was featured at a CSU event.
1:02:34
Oh, right, no, that was C. UACU event.
1:02:37
I live in Boulder so that's OK. Let me see it.
1:02:40
Not all business. Go ahead.
1:02:42
No, go ahead. I was going to correct myself so
1:02:44
that that wasn't embarrassing. But you know what?
1:02:46
We're just going to accept that that.
1:02:48
Yeah, welcome to club. I'm working on my acronyms,
1:02:51
yeah. Yeah, we, we sponsored the CU
1:02:56
women's basketball team on their female leadership night.
1:03:02
So it's actually fantastic event.
1:03:04
All these female executives in the community come and sit
1:03:10
one-on-one with all of our female basketball team, and they
1:03:14
kind of just talk about the future and talk about excess.
1:03:17
And then they together get on stage and, like, present what
1:03:21
they learned about each other. It's just an amazing event.
1:03:23
It was fantastic to be able to sponsor it.
1:03:27
Yeah, it's part of the community piece, right?
1:03:29
That's our podcast, Smile of the Week.
1:03:33
That is the podcast Smile of the Week it was.
1:03:34
Fun. It was really fun.
1:03:36
That's good, Clay. I have like 3 so I'll go.
1:03:41
Through sorry we only have two it.
1:03:42
Can only be 11 it. Can only be 1.
1:03:44
You didn't. Do three.
1:03:45
OK, OK, so the Detroit Lions didn't play a game, so it can't
1:03:48
be that OK, 'cause they're on a bye week.
1:03:52
The My family, we had our first bonfire of the season in our
1:03:57
backyard this year and we live in Michigan, So it's just like
1:04:00
the leaves are changing the the weather is just right when it's
1:04:03
like. Do you still have the no smoke
1:04:05
thing? Yeah, the smokeless.
1:04:07
That was my pandemic purchase. Well done.
1:04:11
Smokeless fire pit and it isn't smoke free but it is less smoke.
1:04:17
I will say that smoke. Less.
1:04:18
Oh, that is such a branding trick.
1:04:21
Smoke less. And it's like, Oh no, we must
1:04:23
smoke less. Yeah, that's all the way you
1:04:26
enunciate it. Yeah.
1:04:27
Was that, was that the brand that Snoop Dogg did the whole
1:04:31
thing? He was quitting?
1:04:35
Yeah. Best marketing campaign ever.
1:04:38
Unfortunately, no, I don't have that smoke less fire pit.
1:04:43
I have their competitor, I have the competitor to that brand and
1:04:48
I highly recommend them Very good.
1:04:50
But that was a great marketing campaign.
1:04:52
So yeah, perfect weather outside.
1:04:54
We Ray and Emerson, I just sat by the fires like nice and warm
1:04:59
and we just sat as a family, talked, had a nice.
1:05:02
Are we the cats in our neighborhood that kind of run
1:05:05
around and we take care of them and Ray does TNR stuff trap
1:05:09
neuter release. So all the cats I.
1:05:12
Have Thursday night ride. Thursday night ride, What is
1:05:15
that? That's what we do.
1:05:17
Oh, that's another. Just put a pin on that one.
1:05:20
A Thursday night ride like just you and your husband like ride.
1:05:24
No, it's a whole thing here. Oh, am I?
1:05:26
Keep going. Yeah, so anyway, I had, as
1:05:30
Heather is doing gestures with her hands, I was describing A
1:05:33
wholesome family moment. So we just had a nice time
1:05:36
together. She's the one that took it.
1:05:38
She's the one that took it down. We have our Thursday night ride.
1:05:41
I know, I know. Am I the only one that thought
1:05:44
okay? No, I just, I do think those
1:05:46
things, but I just don't say them out loud and I actually
1:05:48
depend on you to actually say them out loud.
1:05:50
Start. Okay, Heather.
1:05:52
I'll do it every. Time.
1:05:55
Wait, that was only one? You had like 3.
1:05:56
I was told I could only have one lately.
1:05:59
Just get, could you go fast? Come on, I want to hear them
1:06:01
now. I walked out of a used car
1:06:03
dealership because I didn't get the deal.
1:06:04
They called me back the next day.
1:06:05
I got the deal. So I felt really, I felt really
1:06:08
happy about that. I've learned a lot of
1:06:09
negotiating skills sitting in my silence.
1:06:12
Coming in. No, I got the deal.
1:06:15
That's. That's the smile, he said it
1:06:19
like, well, like I get the. Phone call, I hang up and I'm
1:06:21
like hell yeah, I got the deal. You know, like I got.
1:06:24
It yeah, you. Got it.
1:06:25
And then gosh, I can't remember the third one now.
1:06:28
It was something else. It was nice and I smiled.
1:06:31
Sorry. That was great, thanks.
1:06:36
Mine was that Nick took me away to Steamboat for just one night.
1:06:41
He's, he's one of these like points guys, you know, where
1:06:45
it's like you got to get the card and then you get, there's
1:06:48
an annual fee, but they give you all of these benefits where the
1:06:51
card pays for itself. And in theory that's great.
1:06:54
But then people, the card company counts on you not taking
1:06:58
them up on the deals. And so he's like, screw that.
1:07:00
We're, we're getting our money's worth.
1:07:02
So he was like, we have to go to a Sheridan somewhere in Colorado
1:07:07
before December 31st because we have a $300 credit and.
1:07:12
If you're not going, I am, yeah. Basically he's like pick a share
1:07:16
or whatever. So there's one in Steamboat.
1:07:17
So we went and we have tradition.
1:07:20
Every time we go to Steamboat, we go to dinner and then kind of
1:07:23
shopping and then we'll go to that Strawberry Springs Hot
1:07:25
Springs, which are just like naked fans, obviously naked.
1:07:29
We do go at night, which some people will go naked.
1:07:33
Is it like a schvitz? Is it like a?
1:07:35
Yeah, it's. Optional no, it's outdoor and
1:07:37
it's there's people all around. But at night, if you go to like
1:07:40
the late sessions, there will there people go just to be able
1:07:44
to go without clothes on. It's like accepted, right?
1:07:46
But you really can't see anyone. It's like black as night.
1:07:48
There's no lights at all. It's also very dangerous because
1:07:51
it's natural rock and it's slippery itself slippery and you
1:07:55
have to be very, very careful. But anyway, so we were
1:07:59
slaughtered to go do that. And then at dinner, we just
1:08:02
looked at each other and we were like, we're so tired.
1:08:05
Like, we were so exhausted. And we were both trying to like,
1:08:10
keep it up and like, live like, OK, this is what we do.
1:08:13
And we don't want to be like, old and like, OK, now we're
1:08:15
whatever. We just got married a few months
1:08:17
ago. And we're like, is it OK if we
1:08:19
just, like, go back to the hotel and maybe just watch a show and
1:08:24
fall asleep? He's like, is that OK with you?
1:08:26
And I was like, yeah. And he's like, is that OK with
1:08:28
you? He's like, yes.
1:08:30
And so we did it, and it was awesome.
1:08:33
And we loved it. And it was like, we woke up the
1:08:36
next day. We thought we went to a nice
1:08:37
breakfast and it was just, it brought a smile to my face
1:08:40
because what I loved was just that honesty and not the, oh, we
1:08:44
have to keep up a show because other people tell us that if we
1:08:47
don't have the romance, you know, hot spring time, that
1:08:50
something's wrong. And we're definitely going to go
1:08:53
still do that. But in that day, in that time,
1:08:55
we had a hell of a week. And to live up to that and have
1:08:58
that honest moment with each other was great because, you
1:09:02
know, and other relationships I've been in there would have
1:09:04
been this kind of fake. No, sure, I'll go, Oh, do you
1:09:06
want to go? Of course I want to go.
1:09:07
And then we're both unhappy. So to just have honest sharing
1:09:10
was made me happy you. Found your person.
1:09:14
I found my. Person OK on that note.
1:09:18
On that note, congratulations, you're in the top 10% of
1:09:22
podcasts. You've done it.
1:09:24
Yes, we've done proud. Of us, we've done it, yes, Thank
1:09:29
you. Exciting.
1:09:31
Is this bad? I thought it was the top 50%
1:09:34
once you got to 10, and then I thought you had to get to 21 to
1:09:37
be in the top 10%. So the so it's the first 3
1:09:43
episodes put you in the top 50 percent, 1010 episodes.
1:09:47
No, this is good. People need to know this and
1:09:51
it's OK because it is confusing and it's like doesn't make
1:09:54
sense. The numbers are weird.
1:09:56
But it's first three top 50%, ten episodes and you get into
1:10:01
the top 50 percent, 21 episodes, top 1%.
1:10:07
OK, so we're here. So I say we keep going.
1:10:09
Blakely, are you in for another year?
1:10:11
Yeah. Are you in?
1:10:11
Are you in? Yeah.
1:10:13
Oh no this is great having our anniversary re upping
1:10:15
conversation. Are you in for another?
1:10:17
Year I commit to you, I commit to your abusive language.
1:10:23
Toward me, and I commit to continuing to make fun of you
1:10:28
every chance I get. For another year, I say stupid
1:10:32
shit all the time, so yeah, all right.
1:10:34
And. We commit to our listeners to
1:10:36
keep showing up. Week after week, thank you
1:10:39
listeners. Thank you and thank you.
1:10:40
Subscribe. Please subscribe.
1:10:42
Thank you, MO. Cheers.
1:10:45
Cheers. Cheers.