Latest / Free Therapy with Ben & Kevin / How men can build more meaningful friendships #13

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How men can build more meaningful friendships #13 · Free Therapy with Ben & Kevin

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: The Wordley's Free Therapy. Hello. Hello, I'm Ben.
• 0:04
  Speaker 2: And my name is Kevin. And each week we sit
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: down with a different therapist and Ben and I just
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: unpack all the shit that most people struggle with, but
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: nobody's saying out loud.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: This week was great. So it was honestly like we
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: just letting. We just laughed the whole episode.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: I loved this therapist.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: So we brought in Seth manaf Him who is a
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: therapist here in Los Angeles. He's amazing, runs an entire
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: therapy group, and we brought him in to talk about
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: how guys and girls can make and maintain deep friendships.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: And honestly, by the end of it, I feel like
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: we walked out with a new friend. He was so
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: down to earth and relatable. So Seth, we're gonna grab
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: a drink later.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: We talked about one of my favorite topics, how to
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: make a friend and really who you have to become
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: to attract great friendships in your life. We also got
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: into how to change the dynamics of your friend group
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: so that it's not so service level and you can
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: get more deep and vulnerable, and we even talked about
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: what to do when you feel resentment in your friendships
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: and how to result.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: And by the end of it, Seth had us convinced
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: all you got to say is I love your man.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: If you do that more often, everything's going to be
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: a little bit easier.
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: So sit back, relax, and enjoy the show.
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: Seth.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Free Therapy. Thank you, Happy to have you.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: I'm happy to be here, guys, everybody. Seth Monochem is
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: a therapist here in LA runs the Monough Psychotherapy group.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: He has a master's in clinical psychology and lmft, he's amazing.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: We were introduced to him through a friend and we talked.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: I didn't I actually missed the meeting for the pre
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: therapy call. So Kevin took that and said, Yo, this
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: guy has to come on the podcast. He's amazing. He
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: called me after he goes. He goes. Lay it up.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: Ben, Yeah, I loved the flow in the converse.
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: Was it strange for Ben that you and I were
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: bonding and he wasn't part of it?
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: I think so I did get jealous.
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: I think you got a little bit jealous.
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: But it's okay.
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: You can be a big.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: Independent sometimes I can be a big code dependent.
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: You bros over.
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: Here Yeah, it's good.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: Learned about you too, Okay, so yeah, it's great. On
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: this episode, we want to dig into male friendships. Why
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: is it so hard for guys to be vulnerable with
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: other guys? Why are we seeing this like kind of
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: new wave of men just kind of isolated more lonely.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: When I first moved back to LA after the pandemic,
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: I became friends with a bunch of guys who were
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: from Baltimore, and they had never really had any vulnerable
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: conversations amongst their friend group, and I had become close
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: to a couple of them here and there and started
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: to just like do the thing that I do, which
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: is just be honest about my feelings, kind of tell
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: them what's going on. Yes, talk about my feelings a lot,
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: but just in a way that was normal for me.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: And a couple years later I told him about this
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: podcast and they were like, Wow, I'm so excited for you.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: They're like, until you came into our lives and our
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: friend group, none of us even talked about these things.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: And now because of you, we kind of open up
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: and we feel more okay with that, And that just
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: resonated with me and felt so nice and cav even
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: has said, I mean you can share what Yeah? I mean.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: I've realized as we've talked to more and more guys,
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: like we do a bunch of stuff on the street
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: where we go up to guys and ask them questions
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: about therapy and vulnerability, And as we just put out
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: this show and more guys come up to us and
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: talk to us about vulnerability and openness and friendships, I've
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: realized that the for there be a friend group where
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: there's openness and depth and vulnerability, it's not necessarily about
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: like how that the people in that friend were were raised,
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: or political beliefs, or how like quote unquote masculine or
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: feminine the guys in the group are any of that.
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: It has to do with is there one guy who
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: takes the little leap to open and to share something real,
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: And as soon as that happens, like there's a permission
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: that happens in the group. After a couple times that
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: the whole group starts to do.
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  Speaker 3: It, you shift the group, right. You opening up and
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: being vulnerable gives permission to people to open up and
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: be vulnerable, and so you're not always going to get
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: vulnerability back. There's times that you're going to put it
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: out there and realize that people are limited or not
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: capable or don't want to, and that's fine. I think
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  Speaker 3: the biggest fear for people is this idea that we're
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: going to be open and vulnerable and I'm going to
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: be rejected, and what is the rejection. There's this idea
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: that it's so scary that if we're rejected that something
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: horrible happens, and ultimately nothing happens. Like there's no risk
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: in being vulnerable. People think it's such a giant risk.
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: And I understand that certain levels of vulnerability or risk,
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: But when you're meeting someone new, you open up. You guys,
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: just met me and we were joking around and we
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: were speaking a little and I was telling you a
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: little bit about my life or about my kids, and
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: I'm being slightly vulnerable right, opening up about a couple
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: of things. I get to see what comes my way
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: in return. And what I noticed was sort of an
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: immediate vulnerability back, which lets me know like, oh, I
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: can get a little deeper, and so can you. Right,
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: It allows our relationship to deepen. Now, if you weren't
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: able to do it, that's fine as well. I just
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: learned something which is oh, all right, he's not capable.
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: Nothing was lost. I didn't give something a way that
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: I will now never get back because I opened up
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: to you guys. And so with your friend group, you'll
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: start to do it and you'll see who's capable, and
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: it'll end up deepening those friendships. And the truth is
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: you gave a great example with your friends. Is that
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: the person who's able to do it, and often I'm
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: that in my friend group as well. The person who's
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: able to do that ends up shifting the way the
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: group relates to each other, and so you end up
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: having these much deeper closer relationships.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: I love that you're talking about. You know, a lot
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: of guys will say, well, I'm kN going to a
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: lot of people just say I'm not going to pour
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: my heart out. Yeah, you're talking about I'm going to
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: open up a bit. I'm want to be a bit
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: vulnerable and see how it's responded, to see if the
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: other person can meet me there. So you don't feel
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: like if we don't respond to you, you've just laid
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: your whole heart out and your whole life out, and
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: we're just we don't give a fuck.
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: That's right.
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  Speaker 3: I'm not opening up about my biggest traumas or fears
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: or things that I'm still grappling with with someone who
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: I have no understanding whether they're capable of giving that
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: back to me or not. I'm testing it out by
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: opening up in small ways and ganging to see what
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: comes back at me.
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: I agree, Right, you have to kind of do a
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: little bit of a dance of vulnerability. You go, you,
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: they go, right, And so for me, maybe like I
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: would share some things that might sound a little vulnerable. Right, So,
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: if you have a hard day at work and someone's like,
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: how is your day, instead of saying it was fine,
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: you respond with, man, I don't know, dude, I might
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: lose my job. My boss is, you know, kind of
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: on me and I didn't do anything, and that person
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: could just be like, shit, man, I've been there. And
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: then you're like, oh, so I think it's like, what
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: are the little things? And I'm thinking work or even
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: like family or relationships. It could be something small. It
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: could be like, I don't know, my girlfriend and I
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: just got in a big fight. Right. It doesn't even
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: take anything profound. It just takes a little bit of
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: things that's on your mind that's causing a little bit
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: of tension and emotional distress and opening up a tad
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: just kind of sees where you can feel less alone
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: in that in that pain.
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: That's right. I imagine what will happen when you get comfortable
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  Speaker 3: with it, and I assume you're there. I don't know
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  Speaker 3: anything about you guys yet, but my understanding is that
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: you are innately very open. It sounds like, yeah, what
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: do you think so and so? Because of that, it
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: actually it's it's never difficult to do. You don't even
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: realize that you're playing that dance in the same way
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: because it's not as big a drop for you to
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: say anything. Me too, by the way, I'm fairly open,
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: and so it doesn't bother me that I said something
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: that might have been open or vulnerable. That you didn't
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: respond to this thing that I said I had an
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: issue with my wife for a job, or that I'm
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: nervous about money, and that you don't give me that
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  Speaker 3: you know that you don't give me anything in return
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: doesn't do anything for me. Yeah, it's because I'm comfortable
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  Speaker 3: moving through the world in a very open way.
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: Can you share the story about your neighbor?
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  Speaker 3: Oh? Yes, not my neighbor. Now I used to live
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: that's right. I lived in a building, and in an
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: apartment building. When my door opens, my my neighbor's door
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: would open. So the two of us became close. And
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: what he said to me was, I have to tell
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: you you've changed my life and fuck you. I have
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  Speaker 3: these feelings all the time now that I never paid
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: attention to. But also thank you because I can't go back.
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: That's what. That's right, that's right.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: So why do you think it's so hard for guys
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: to make friends that I you know, I read this
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: YouTube comment I was like prepping for the podcast, and
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: it was something about gen Z makes.
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: Where I get the best information is YouTube comments. That
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: is where you're going to really get I will say this.
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: It may not be good information, but it's the pulse
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: of how people really feel. And one of the guys
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: a lot of likes he goes, why am I so
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: stressed about trying to make a male friendship over finding
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: a romantic partner? And and the comments are crazy. Everyone's like, yeah,
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: I agree, it's so hard. Yeah, And and they're they're
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: they're literally confused. They don't know how to approach a guy,
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: a stranger how do you what's the what's the cadence
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: of hanging out? How do you bring them into the
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: friend group? What do you say say without coming off weird,
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: without I don't know, maybe feeling like you're alone and embarrassed,
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: right Like, I don't think that people know how to
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: make a male friend.
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: So my generation wasn't great with us. I'm fifty two,
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: so I'm from a generation that was not very open,
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: and it wasn't like kids were discussing feelings, and there
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: was no there wasn't even any social media that reflected
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: back anything at us. We were limited with what we had,
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: and I always felt safer with girls growing up, which
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: I always had more girl friends. It was where I
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: felt the most safe because I could be the most
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: open and boys were less. So now I feel like
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: people do have more access to feelings and that therapy
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: is more open and what you guys are doing is
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: indicative of that, which is amazing. But there's another problem,
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: which is that kids are more isolated. Boys are more isolated,
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: and so even if feelings are discussed online, how to
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: interact in person is still problematic to move through the
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: world with other kids in a way that's off of
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: social media or in person is very stilted. It's very
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: awkward for them. And so I imagine, like what some
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: of the kids are seeing or what some of the
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: kids are feeling is I don't quite know how to
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: socialize off of phones and in ways that I had
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: to as a kid because we had no option, Although
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: we still had difficulty expressing feelings. The boys were not
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: as open as the girls were, and I guess today
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: that's probably still the same. I think men tend to
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: have larger egos. I think men tend to value things
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: in different ways than women do, and as a result,
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: because of those things they value, which also social media
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: reflects back at you, which is, you know, money and
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: Bugatti and all of this stupidity manisphere stuff exactly. But
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: that's what's important, right that those are the things that
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: give you worth. And if those are the things give
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: you worth, If those things give you worth, you are
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: going to be much less likely to say I'm feeling
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: oppressed or I'm feeling inadequate in some way. Yeah, what
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: you want to say is I'm building generational wealth or
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: get into Bugatti or you know, crazy whatever cars closed
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: or things are important to you.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: Ke how have you made friendships later in your life?
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: What have you done to when you meet a stranger,
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: a guy, you're out at a bar, you're at an event,
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: You're like, damn, this guy and I had a good
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: conversation and you want to like be friends with them.
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: Have you have done that in your late twenties? Have
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: you have have you gone about that?
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: I think something we don't talk about enough is that
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: friendships later in life are about the value that you're
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: bringing to the room and to a person. And I
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: don't mean that in a transactional way. I just mean, like,
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: what kind of life do you live?
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: Like?
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: How fun, how engaging, how alive is your life? So
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: that if someone else is like meets you as an adult,
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: do they go, oh, that's cool. I want some of
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: that in my life. Yeah, Like, if your life is
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: pretty like stagnant, even if it's just like I go
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: to work and I go work out and I go home,
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: I go work like that, that isn't something that someone
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: else is going to meet as a friend and be like.
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: They probably have no way to attach themselves to that either. Exactly.
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: There's nowhere that a friend or even to that point,
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: a partner could fit.
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: In that's like a romantic work. I go to the gym,
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: I go home, I go back to work.
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: So like, if that's your life and you're like I
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: can't find a girlfriend and I can't find friends, that's
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: probably what's going on. There's nowhere for someone else to
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: fit in now, Like, if there's something you're interested in
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: that get you excited, Like for me, improv was that
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: at a certain point, Like I loved improv, and even
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: though I didn't meet one friend in that improv class,
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: it made me more fun outside of improv. And so
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: then when I would go to like a birthday or
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: something and i'd meet someone, I would have more fun.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: And then I would say I'm doing improv and I
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: remember someone else being like that's amazing. I've wanted to
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: do improv.
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: That's so cool that you do that. Wow, where did
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: you go?
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: And then I'm like, oh, you should go, like you
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: should go to this. Yes, yes, exactly, thank you, So
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: you should go and they go to the class and
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: they have an experience because I and then all of
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: a sudden, this is like a friendship. Yeah, And I
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: think you just have to find the things you get
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: excited about. That's what I think I've done anytime that
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: I feel like, ah shit, my life is small, like
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: I don't have friends or yeah, in the past when
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: I'm like, I like dating is not going the way
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: I want it to, it's always just been like, Okay,
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: how do I like feed my life whatever? It isn't
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: even if it's like working out, Like, yeah, your brother
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: Drew does an amazing job at this. I see, like
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: he loves like working out in classes and all this,
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: and he makes it like a big part of his life.
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: It's not just like he goes to the gym.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: He has community around it and like it becomes something
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: that he loves and then meets people through.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: It's a great point. It's like finding things that interest
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: you and do them, and then probably we'll meet somebody
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: that has the same interest, and the friendship is much
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: more organic than hey, what do you do? Okay, cool?
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: What do you do?
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: Oh? You know? It is the best way to meet people.
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: I mean, when someone moves here, I always suggest that
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: they find some time they go to the gym. If
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: they're going to the gym, that they go to the
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: gym around the same time every day or every few days,
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: that they find a coffee shop that they like, that
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: they find certain things they do where they see the
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: same people all the time, which is how you meet people.
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: And so the important point you're making is that you're
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: looking for friends and you are skipping the part where
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: you need to enrich your own life and find stuff
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: that you like to do and that you have to
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: be It's not just interesting, but the reason why people
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: find you interesting is because you were interested in many
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: things and that interest is attractive to other people.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so true, Yeah, I remember, Yeah, yeah, I mean
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: I remember probably like when I moved back from New York.
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: I had a lot of friends in New York, and
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: I didn't have a ton in la at Kevin. Some
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: high school friend, some college friends, and I was trying
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: to make new friends and some came and some went,
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: a lot of interests working out. But then as I
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: started to get serious of work again, I was my
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: world is getting small. It got smaller when I got busier.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: And when it started to get small, I was like,
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: I don't like this feeling right, And so started to
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: go out again. And I remember meeting this guy, this
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: guy Steve. I met him at my brother's Honka party.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: Brother's a Rabbi throws a crazy honic a party once
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: a year.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: Do you know what have you heard about it?
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: Rabbi Teller?
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: I don't know. Rabbi Teller's party.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: Never knows Rabbi Teller.
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: Where's his good party?
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: He gets a mansion every year, don't get three hundred
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: people and it's a bank.
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: I love it.
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: It's a party there, I'm sure easily anyways, throw this party.
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: I get there and with a couple of my friends,
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: meet a guy in line or at the at the
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: food bar. What's that? What's that? What's that? We start
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: talking whatever, it's cool vibe, We start talking. He was
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: so dedicated to building the friendship in a way that
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: he just followed up via text, asked to get coffee
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: here and there, asked what I was doing. And then
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: there was like this dance of hanging out and it
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: was like one time, it was a break and it
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: was like two months, and then we got a coffee
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: and then it was like three months and we all
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: met somewhere and it takes months. But it wasn't anything like, uh,
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: what's the organic exactly? And I think that's that's the
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: missing link here. It's just like reach out on a weekend.
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: Y know, what are you doing?
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean? If it's a new friend
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: or like, hey, you want to meet us here? And
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: then you see if it catches, you see if you
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: catch a vibe when you go out, and literally three
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: and a half years later, he's like one of my
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: good friends and we hang out all the time, and
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: you know, and it takes a lot of time, but
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: it takes a little bit of effort, that's right. And
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: then when you do the effort, you're like, if it
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: works out, it works out. You got a friend. If
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: you don't, you don't. It's not a big deal. But
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: I think it's those little steps in between totally.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: If someone's in a friendship where they feel like maybe
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: they're giving more than they're getting and so it feels
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: like in balance or vice versa, what advice would you
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: give them, Like, how do you show up in that
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: friendship in a way that's still you care about your friends,
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: but you feel like you're being left to hang dry.
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: At times, you say something and we adjust and say
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: stuff to each other without a doubt. We even adjust
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: our tone with each other. We debate all the time. Politically,
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: we're in different pages around things, and so a friend
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: will send something, we'll get into a little online debate
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: or a little WhatsApp group that we have, And I
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: said to a friend, you know, you're being really mean.
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: What's going on? Like why? I said, it's the conversation
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: isn't fun? What was the point of this? And he
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: didn't respond, and then later he wrote me, Hey, I'm
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: really sorry. Something happened at work and I just took
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: it out and you had nothing to do with you.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: I love you. It's nice that he said that. Though,
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: that's great that you said that. Yeah, it's so hard
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: to say what you said to him. You're sounding really
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: mean because obviously your feelings were hurt or you had
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: some sense of like this isn't normal, and you were like, wait,
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: I'm going to call this out instead of keeping it
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: down and building resentment.
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: Potentially, it was such a disproportionate response to what the
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: conversation was. Yeah, and I pay attention to that myself
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: as well, like we all have that.
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: Okay, how do you measure a disproportionate response?
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: So the example yesterday is a friend is it's on him,
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: not me, But regardless, it helps or if you want,
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: I can give a meek So his response to something
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: that was like a debate on if we should pull
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: out of you or not, or how we're doing it
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: was so heated it made no sense. There was no
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: emotional tie to it in a way where he suddenly
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: was so angry and it was projected at me, so
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: clearly something was going on. I'm able to see that
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: this is not about, you know, being upset over something political,
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: and so I'm able to call that out and in myself,
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: I might feel something too, which is a small slight
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: happens slight, so that happened every day, or something that
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: I perceive as a slight. Kevin seemed to ignore me
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: this morning when I said what's up? And I get
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: really angry and I'm really triggered by it. Yeah, and
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: I say something Kevin, he was like, oh no, sorry,
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: I said something on my mind. You have to bring
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: it up though, that's right, but I have to first
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: pay attention before I bring it up. I want to
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: make sure that, let's say, I have an abandonment wound.
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: And when he did that, it brought up some real
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: fucking anger in me. And that's a disproportionate response, right.
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: He went in this morning, and he didn't notice me,
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: and he didn't pay attention to me, and I have
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: this really big response. Now, I know that's early stuff.
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: I have my own stuff with abandonment, being treated a
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: certain way, or being seen as invisible or whatever that
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: might be for me, And so how I approach him
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: is going to make all the difference. So if I'm
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: approaching him with all of that, I've now dumped all
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: of this stuff onto Kevin that he is not privy to.
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: Kevin was just doing his own thing this morning, or
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: maybe it a bad morning, who knows, And so I'm
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: very careful in how I would do it. And in
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: doing that, then we get to have the healthier conversation.
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: That's the disproportionate response, right, that's the response where I know,
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: emotionally I'm feeling something that wouldn't make sense in terms
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: of what Kevin did. Was that such a big rift?
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: Kevin just passed by me this morning. I have all
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: these giant feelings.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's first to take.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: A responsibility for your own side of the street always.
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, clean up your side of the street. Best thing
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: that my AA clients like have in one of the
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: tenets of AA, I love it, clean up your side
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: of the street, think about your pardon it.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: What is interesting is when you feel this disproportionate response,
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: when you feel this feeling inside of you that's like, damn,
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: someone I care about did something that affected me negatively,
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: and that gut reaction is something that I think guys
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: know really quickly. Humans No, humans don't, but they usually
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: in my experience, and I'm like this, let it go,
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: don't say anything. It's just them, it's whatever. And then
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: they do it again, and then they do it again,
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: and then you either say, oh, that's just them, that's
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: just who they are, and then you're like, wait, no,
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: I don't want that in my friendship. I don't want
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: a person that makes me feel that way. But you
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: can't get mad at them if you've never brought it up,
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: you can't actually blame them for that behavior. If you
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: don't say, man, you always show up forty five minutes late,
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: or you always you know, whenever I say something vulnerable,
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: you kind of just make it about yourself. Or every
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: time I'm trying to do something, you this and you're
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: like damn. So I think it's important for you to
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: say it early and often in a way that is
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: true to yourself.
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: That's right, and in a way that that you are
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: responsible for your own feelings, meaning it makes me feel
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: a certain way, not you're a dick, and every time
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: it makes me feel right, which men will tend to do.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: That's interesting. So how would you can you give an
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: example of like someone sliding? You sure? Give me? Give
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: me the same? What's like a recent example in like
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: our friend group or like people that we know, that's
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: more like.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: I'll bring up an example the other week that I
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: was with a friend and I was driving. We were
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: on a trip, and he made a comment that felt
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: aggressive to me, like about the driving. It was like
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: there was an animal in the sider. He's like, don't
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: need the animal, Kevin. It was like that now, Like
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: I paused, and I thought that felt aggressive to me.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: I also knew that he wasn't angry because everything was
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: completely normal before, and so I just said, hey, what
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: were you trying to communicate there? Because it felt a
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: bit angry and aggressive to me. I assume you weren't
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: angry at me because I did nothing happened, But what
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: were you trying to communicate?
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: So you did a very good job. There's nothing wrong
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: with what you said, I have no notes. Another way
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: is just to talk about how it made you feel,
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: meaning I notice whenever you shout out that there's an
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: animal in the side of the road or slow down,
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: it actually activates me and I get really nervous driving.
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: So let me know if there's something else you can
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: do when you're nervous, let me know if you don't
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: trust my driving, and so on, and so that's a
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: different way of doing it, which is just talk about
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: how you feel. I noticed in the morning when I
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: say hi and I say I use qualifiers like I
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: notice or I wonder. I think curiosity is really important
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: and just being curious in someone's experience, not assuming that
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: the experience you're having is what the experience is.
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: I make assumptions.
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: So one way around that is being curious about an experience.
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: I'm just curious about why you're doing blank. I'm curious.
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: I'm having this feeling and I want to understand what
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: that is. And when it comes to relationships or your
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: inability to even notice when you're doing it, what happens
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: is we make the assumption that everybody thinks like us.
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: If I'm having a feeling about a situation. They must
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: be having the same feeling. People do not all think
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: the same. We are not having the same experience. The
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: three of us are not having this same experience in
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: the room right now.
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: Right Curiosity, You're really curious. keV is like much curious,
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: more curious than I'm much more stubborn. But I think
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: I've learned that when I have a disproportionate response, or
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: I have a feeling that's reactive, I'm trying to be like, wait,
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: why did I have that feeling? Ask that question first,
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: And it's protected me from so much just like confrontation,
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: but unnecessary confrontation, because then I'll just be like why
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: did I have that response? It's like, oh, because last
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: time I forgot to bring up that when that person
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: did that, it bothered me, And so what happened again?
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: And like, oh, so that feeling is getting bigger, I
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: probably gotta say something now. But I never even was
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: curious on why I was feeling it. So my own
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: curiosity has led to then being available for their curiosity.
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: You get to practice curiosity. You're not someone who lacks curiosity.
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: You may not have used that muscle, but you can
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: teach yourself to be curious. I teach my therapist associates
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: that I train how to be curious when they're nervous
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: or they feel stuck in a session and they don't
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: know what to do. I say, you're just sitting in
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: a room with another human being, aren't you curious about
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: their experience? Practice curiosity. If you go on a date
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: with someone and you immediately feel like this date it's
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: not the right fit, and so you're miserable the rest
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: of the date and you just want to get out
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: of there. Yeah, what if you took a different tack,
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: which is I'm just gonna be curious. I'm singing across
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: from another person. I have an hour for a dinner.
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: I might as well be curious. You get to learn
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: about someone else. When you meet a guy, you're talking
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: about male friendships, you're at a party and you meet someone,
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: it's so easy to quickly sum them up. I don't
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: like this guy, he's blank, or this is so not
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: my type of person. All right, it's so fine. You're
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: not gonna best friends. Not be curious. It's so fun.
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: You get to see how people see the world. You
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: get to meet people and learn about things that they're
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: curious about that you would never be curious about, and
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: it's so interesting and it makes life fun. Being curious
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: makes life interesting and fun. You will never be bored.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: That's great advice.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: Amazing advice, thanks fellas.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: Okay, so I was thinking about I was like again
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: looking online for where some of these male friendships, what
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: they're struggling with, what they do, and someone Lazrina, was like,
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: all you have to do is just try to say
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: I love you to a guy and see what they
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: respond about. You'll love you, bro, How you doing love you, bro?
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: And just see what happens. You'll be surprised at one
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: of your five friends that I'll say it right back
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: to you, and then you'll immediately feel closer to them.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: We were talking to somebody who was like, you should
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: end each podcast saying I love you man, because it's
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: like not a normal thing to say I love you
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: to a guy. Yeah. I say, it's most of my
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: guy friends that I do love and they say it
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: right back, and I'm like, this is fun. But growing up,
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: I was like, now your insert trope here for saying
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: I love you to a guy, and now I.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: Love you Jovino.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: Yes, is that from a y? Yeah? That's funny.
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: That was a great exploration of relationships. Yeah, that wasationship
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: really was. Yeah, I agree with you. I think telling
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: your friends you love them is wonderful. And my friends
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: and I have arms around each other and i've you know,
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: shared beds with them in hotel rooms and people would
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: joke that were, you know, a gay couple, and I say, fine,
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: I think it's funny.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: But you know what's funny is like the inner child
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: work of me was like I was called gay growing
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: up just for having female friends, and now I actually
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: am so confident in who I am that I can
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: go hug and even kiss my guy friends on the
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: cheek and like love them intensely and feel like that
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: is just what connection is.
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: That is the relationship with my friends. I mean I
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: prefer relationships that are so close and we love each other. Yeah,
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: I mean I want deep relationships with friends. Not every
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: relationship is the same, but I love developing deep relationships.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: Something that you said was interesting was is that every
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: friendship can be different. The connection to each friend doesn't
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: have to be the same. And I think I used
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: to think all friends had to be you know, the
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: relationship that I have with you or my brothers or whatever.
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: But really like each friendship could take its own beautiful
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: course and you have to explore that friendship with them
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: and see what comes of it. And I think taking
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: the pressure off of that deep, deep connection that you
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: need to have. It's like, no, it could just be
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: a football buddy. It could just be like a walking buddy.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: It could just be like an improv buddy.
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you will have friends who fill different roles. Yeah,
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: people in your life fell different roles. My wife doesn't
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: fill every role for me.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: Yes, it's big. People think that.
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. People have this expectation that your partner should
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: fill every single role and it's not like that.
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean I built resentment towards Kevin because I
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: expected him to fill every role for me when my
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: dad was sick. We got very close and he had
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: to fill every role for me, and I built resentment
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: and he felt the resentment and I put it on him,
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: and then I realized, wait, it should be he plays
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: this role, someone else plays this role. But I think
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: when you get close to somebody, you think that you know.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think like guys on my side, if
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: I were I could keep my side of the street clean.
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: In that dynamic, it was like that I, as.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: Like a recovering people pleaser, show up in as many
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: ways as I can whenever I can. If I know
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: that you need something or someone, then I can show
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: up and I try to and then I there's like
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: an implicit agreement there that then I will yeah. And
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: so my side of the street was like communicating that,
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: like years, what I can do. Here's what I can do,
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: and then you can catch that and go, okay, cool, yeah,
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: I have too many expectations of him.
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and getting you getting comfortable with that part of you,
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: which is hard when you were a people pleaser, and
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: I growing up was similar a caretaker, and I had
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: to caretake, you know, for various people, including a father
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: like you that was sick. I think your father was
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: sick as well, or so as a teenager, I was
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: so inclined to do it because I was taught to
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: do it from a very young age. And as a result,
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: I think I learned to be a martyr. That what
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: the way I show up as a friend was I
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: will do anything in the world for them, but also
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: I would give up not just parts of myself but
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: even my family. For example, if I'm if I'm all
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: when someone's struggling in such a way where I ignore
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: everyone else in my world, Like what am I doing?
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: What is that?
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: And why is that person not capable of also building
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: out a world? Why do I have to become everything
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: for them?
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: It's such a journey to get to that point where
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: you don't feel responsible, like you are the one that
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: the only one that can help them when they need it. Yeah,
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: there is a transitional period there where you're not showing
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: up for them in the way that you used to
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: and they feel left alone.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: The perfect example is Ben's father's dying and you were
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: always that friend, but you were also taking care of
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: yourself and you were so relying on Kevin that it
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: started to feel like he didn't care about you in
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: these moments.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I expect my unwritten expectations of him, and
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: then he didn't show up in those ways. We set expectations,
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: thank you, unset expectations for sure, unset. But he showed
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: up all the time, no matter what. And then when
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: it didn't happen a year after my dad was already passed,
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: I was like, wait, you're not holding up your end
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: of the bargain, but the end of the bargain was
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: on me, and it was said, but it just happened.
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: That's right. There's something else, by the way, which happens
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: with people, not just your dynamic, which is that people
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: don't know how to take care of you in the
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: right way. They don't know how to show up. Again,
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: it's an expectation. You have an expectation that people think
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: the way you do. Why didn't they do blank? Well,
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: why should they? How would they know that that's what
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: you like. We're also varied. You might want him to
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: show up in a way that he doesn't innately show up.
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: He has a different way of showing up. There's different
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: ways that he shows love or that he cares. And
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: also when it comes to death and dying, people are
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: very uncomfortable. You might have some friends that disappear. You
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: might be surprised by some people who show up, but
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: you would never expect to show up. And we've had
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: that my own family in various ways. I remember when
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: my wife's father died, someone who we were not as
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: close with just starts showing up at the house and
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: dropping off lasagna, not showing up and not knocking the door.
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: And not wanting to be in the way. Just this
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: really sweet gesture that my wife still talks about a
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: decade later. My wife still thinks of her is like
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: the greatest because she just did something kind for no
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: reason except to be kind.
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: We love her. What I like what you said is
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: something about just like kindness and doing or like in friendships,
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: it really just takes like a small gesture of I'm
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: thinking of you to build a closer bond, whether it's
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: like bring a coffee when you show up to someone's house,
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: or you remember something that they like and you bring
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: back their favorite alcohol, right, or this person who brought
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: your wife was on and maybe she did it for
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: someone else before and that person was like, oh my god,
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: and she thought, wait, I'm just going to be that
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: person that does that. And I think when you can
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: teach somebody that kindness in that gesture, it just gets
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: reciprocated back in that relationship. But also the way I'm
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: sure your wife now would think, or what the way
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: you would think, And I think that's just like such
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: a way to build a close intimate friendship.
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: Going back to the friendship, how does a guy who
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: feels like talking about his feelings and getting vulnerable is
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: weak like that, that's a weak trait in a friendship.
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: You why is that considered weak? You mean not that
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: why I think it is, especially when you know why
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: people view it as weak. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: So if a guy who feels like it would be
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: weak for him to do, of course, you know, how do?
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: What advice would you give him? How do you open up.
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: Like this? I mean, and I've I've dealt with clients
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: who come from really tough backgrounds. I remember, I've I
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: had a client who grew up in essentially a crack house,
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: really poor, very rough upbringing. And the only two emotions
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: he understood that some men are taught are the only
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: two emotions they're entitled to are stoicism and anger. And
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: so his understanding of what being tough is, what being
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: brave is, is doing just that, shutting down. And I said, well,
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: what would happen if you were vulnerable, for example, And
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: what would happen is that it would be scary for him,
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: And I'm like, you mean scary that it would be tough.
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: That'd be the harder thing to do. Like what's easier
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: to do to be stoic or to open up about
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: how you're feeling. And he's like, I guess opening up.
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: I'm like, so it's tougher to open up about your
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: feelings than it is to shut down or to show anger.
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: He's like, yeah, I never thought about it that way.
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: And what he realize is that all these messages he
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: got about what is tough and what is brave or bullshit,
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: it's so much fucking harder to just be open.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: That is cray. Yes, yeah, it is, it is.
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: It is the most tough thing you could do.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: And let me tell you, I am open and vulnerable
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: and it's still hard for me to do it. So
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: you're right, it is like quite opposite of everything you learn.
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's okay.
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: Sorry, and I realized that. Wow, okay, so you're wow.
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: If I were your therapist, are you doing the same
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: time as it should be?
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: Great? It's insane, such a good perspective. Thanks. Yeah, because
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: because we are taught stoicism, anger provide those things are
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: easier than saying something the bigger feelings that like, that
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: was mean that you said that I didn't like. How
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: that made me feel is like not weat Wow, it's.
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I felt insecure in this moment. It's a tough
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: thing to say, so much harder to say that than
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: even be.
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: Real strength is opening up.
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: Let's go, that's right, how strong you are. You're a beast.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: There's a there's a security guard at the space that
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: we work out with, and he's like, he's a dude,
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: Like he's a security guard in case he's he's he's
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: a nice guy, but like also you look at him
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: and you're like, yeah, he's he's You don't want to
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: mess with that guy.
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: And he saw me carrying around a free therapy mic
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: thing one time and he was like and I asked him,
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: are you in therapy therapy?
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: Fuck? That?
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: Like what the fuck?
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: And I was like, this guy's not you know, it's
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: not him. Two weeks later, we're in a conversation and
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: he said, so, what what is that thing you do?
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: The free therapy thing? And I was like, it's a
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: show where we sit down with different therapists. And he's like, nah, man,
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: I don't do I don't need therapy. And I was
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: like I'm cool. I'm like why not? And he goes,
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: I got really good friends, man, And I was like, amazing.
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: He goes my friends will be there if I ever
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: need them, and they know that I will be there
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: for them no matter what.
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: And I was like, it's.
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: Amazing, Like what why do you have that kind of
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: relationship with your friends? Like He's like, these are my boys.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: I have told them that no matter what, they can
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: call me at any time of night and I will
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: show up. He's like, I've had friends call me at
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: three in the morning when they are at in places
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: that they wouldn't have called anybody.
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and they have.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: They've known they can call me, and I've talked to
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: them for two hours and supported them. And dude, I
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: was It was this moment where I was like, wow,
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: so beautiful that first of all, he doesn't need therapy,
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: like he was judging therapy. Well, no, he was showing
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: up in his friend like he was getting the healing
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: in his friend. Dynamics.
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: I agree. I want to push back a little bit
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: on that idea, but I think it's wonderful. What he
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: has is a wonderful support system and people who take
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: care of each other. Therapy is not just that, and
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: so there's a lot more to be learned in therapy.
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: You said that you found some of my videos on Instagram. Like,
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: what I've been doing is I've been going on these
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: video chat sites and chatting with people all over the
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: world and saying, I'm a therapist. You can ask me anything.
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: Do I permission to record the question? And if not,
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: I'll let them talk to me and I just don't
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: record it. And what I love is that people who
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: would never have access to a therapist will start to
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: ask me about what psychology is, or about feelings or
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: a problem they're going through, and so I get to
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: give them that, and then in posting it, I get
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: to show people what therapy is because it's not what
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: they expect, which is they have an assumption that therapy
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: looks a certain way, or that a therapist looks a
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: certain way or behaves a certain way, and they get
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: to see something different. Part of therapy, yes, is learning
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: how to build a support system and being open with
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: each other. It's wonderful, but there's also understanding who you are,
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: how you are raised, how you move through the world
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: as a result of that in ways that you don't
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: even always recognize, and learning that some of the ways
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: that you might be moving through the world are getting
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: in your way. You might have some conflicts, some fears,
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: and that when you make decisions in your life, you're
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: making them with both eyes open. That's really important to
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: me as a therapist, which is I have no expectation
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: that anyone should think or behave the way I do.
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: I have no judgment on the choices that people make
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: in their lives. I have clients who live very different
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: lives than I do. All of it's fine as long
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: as what they're doing is authentic to them and it's
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: coming from a healthy place, and that work is unbelievable.
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: There's also additional work. There's corrective emotional experiences in therapy.
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: There's so much the therapy that I could talk about.
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: But yes, he gets something wonderful. Yeah, but I would
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: argue that there's something wonderful he could get out of therapy.
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: That doesn't mean everyone needs therapy. Everyone needs therapy all
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: the time, but to me, it is such a gift.
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: My own therapy was such a gift to me. Why
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: I became a therapist was when I was young, I
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: had someone who was helpful to me. Maybe we don't
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: have time to get into but that helped me become
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: a therapist. The reason why I became a therapist and
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: was interested in therapy, and I've watched it changed lives
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: in such amazing ways that I just love it. And
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: I have clients who I think are doing great, and
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: I'll ask them what they want to get out of
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: therapy and they might be done with it, and I'm like,
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: that's great, and they'll come back when they're ready. Or
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: I've got clients who've said to me, like, what do
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: you think I need? And I say, here's where I
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: think you're doing great. You know, there's an area we
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: didn't talk about in your relationship and they're like, I
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: don't want to pick that scab right now, which your
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: client said and then came back to me years later
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: saying it's time. And other times I have clients who
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: are just doing really well. I have a client who
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: is famous and very healthy and done a ton of
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: work and magic is fame in such wonderful ways that
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: when I have other clients dealing with celebrity, I actually
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: will talk about how he manages it in such healthy ways.
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: For him, he feels like it's just a gift and
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: I have the ability to do this and I can
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: afford it. Why would I not do this? Why would
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: I not give myself the space fifty minutes a week
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: to do it, whether he's on the road or he's
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: on a show or whatever it is.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: What's another misconception you think people have about therapy.
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: That you can only show up when you're in crisis.
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: It's the mistake that people make is they only show
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: up in therapy and crisis, or they go to therapy
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: because they're in a crisis. The crisis is done, and
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: they're like, thank you so much, I'll see an nex crisis.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: Why is that bad?
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: Because you are not working on any of the stuff
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: that I just talked about, any of the stuff I
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: just highlighted. You're only shown up and there's a crisis.
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: You are not even doing any of the work to understand.
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: Why do you continually get in these crises? Maybe not
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: that everything is someone's fault. People have crises and they
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: have to work through them. But there's so much good
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: work we can do in therapy, especially the kind of
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: psychodynamic therapy that I do, which is real deep exploration.
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: It's not quick, it's not like it's immediate work. It's
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: not that way. You know, you can give people tools
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: and how to match them anxiety or how to deal
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: with emotions that are out of control. And you know,
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: there's all kinds of DBT skills that you can teach
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: someone to help deal with some things in the moment,
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: But the deep therapy is what I'm talking about. Corrective
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: emotional experiences don't happen overnight. They happen because you have
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: stuff that comes up in the room. We might even
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: have a rupture I'm referring to Ben. We might have
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: a rupture and Ben gets to see that I don't
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: respond the same way he expected me to respond, and
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: something really corrective happens for Ben that he never got
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: to have growing up. That shifts something for Ben. Those
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: experiences take time. Ben also gets to explore what his
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: life was like growing up, how he sees the world
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: in ways that he never even thought about, but that
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: maybe even relate to some of the conflicts he might
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: have been having. If you're just showing up because there's
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: a crisis and we talk through the crisis and the
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: crisis is averted and you say thanks so much, none
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: of that.
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: Work is done. I was with a friend last night
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: for a drink and he got into therapy eight months
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: ago because of something having at work that was stressing
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: him out. And then he goes, thank god I started then,
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: because now I'm on inner child work and it's been
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: the greatest thing ever. He goes, even know the things
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: I was doing at fifteen that were tantrums with my
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: parents are still affecting me today. He goes, I wasn't
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: even aware of it. And we're sitting there. He's like,
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: this is the greatest fucking gift ever. Now I get
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: to go to therapy every week. I learned something new
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: every time. He goes, I feel like I finally am
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: going to figure it out. But he doesn't even know
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: that the patterns he's doing are related to all this shit.
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: But first it was work, then it was a relationship,
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: and then it was like wait one, two, oh, inner
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: child child? What's in her child work? It isn't when
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: you're five years old. It's like a pattern that you
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: reap it over time, base off of things that happened.
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: And he was so unaware of what inner child work
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: meant because it felt intimidating or daunting or I'm fucked
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: up if I have to do it. But everyone should
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: do in her child work. Everyone should go and look
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: back at what happened to them, not in a way
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: that is maybe so psychodynamic, but could just be like man,
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: every time someone does this, I get upset, Why is
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: that happened? And I think that inner child work, that
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: moment of starting in crisis and then just building a
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: rapport with a therapist, building a relationship where you can
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: open up to somebody change your life.
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: Agreed. What a gift set? All right?
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: I love this.
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: Could I ask one thing before we go At the
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: end of each episode, we like to ask our guests,
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: what's one thing you think each of us need to.
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: Work on or could work on after an hour of therapy.
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So I would say, from what I know, you
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: have the ability to practice being more vulnerable, open, and
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: curious in ways that I think Ben said, Uh are
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: are areas of Birthron And for Ben, I'd actually be
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: curious about your early life where you talked about being
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: so open and vulnerable and maybe emotionally reactive when you
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: were young, and it actually brought up questions for me
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: when you said that, which is I bet it wasn't
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: just about you being very attuned to your emotions. I
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: actually think there was probably some stuff that kept you justsregulated,
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: very young that that would be worth exploring and understanding
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: what was going on with you. Then that's not just
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: from a healthy place one hundred percent.
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: The spot onto suck.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: Where did people find you?
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: I'm on Instagram and TikTok. I started playing with the
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: life that's your therapist, the life of a therapist. Yeah,
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: stots between the life dot but uh, and I just
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: post little snippets of conversations psychology conversations like this and uh,
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: and your practice in value village virtually, and I was
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: just gonna say, yes, so I have a practice in
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: that village. I also in Los Angeles, Yes, I have.
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: I'm licensed in Florida, New York and LA. I go
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: to New York a few times a year. I keep
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: a handful of New York clients, only a handful because
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: I don't love working virtually. But I keep some virtual
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: clients and then I go to New York and I
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: see them in person. I also have a team and
• 43:29
  Speaker 3: they will see clients out of the office by the
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: grove and some out of value village as well.
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: Amazing, amazing. I love you, man, I love bro I
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: love you, I love Broy.
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: Hey, thanks for listening. We appreciate you.
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this episode and us embarrassing ourselves and
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: talking about our feelings, you are definitely going to like
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: everything else.
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: Follow on on Instagram at free Therapy and we'll see
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: you next time.