Latest / Leaders in Customer Loyalty, Powered by Loyalty360 / #443: Petro-Canada Driving Loyalty Through Purpose, Partnerships, and Personalization

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#443: Petro-Canada Driving Loyalty Through Purpose, Partnerships, and Personalization · Leaders in Customer Loyalty, Powered by Loyalty360

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Good afternoon and good morning.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: This is Ethan Perry of Loyalty360, welcoming you to another episode of Leaders in Customer Loyalty Brand Stories, where we talk to brand leaders about what they're seeing and hearing on the front lines of customer channel and brand loyalty.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: It's great to have you with us today and every Thursday.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: In this episode, we will hear from Amanda Mitchell, head of Loyalty, and Monica Stevenson, strategic Partnerships Manager at Petro Canada.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Amanda Monica, thank you so much for taking the time to join us today.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: How are you?
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: We're doing great Thanks for having us.
• 0:36
  Speaker 3: Yes, thank you for having us.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: Well, so for those who may not know, can you please give us a short introduction to Petro Canada?
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: How was the company started?
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: What was the genesis of it?
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: Sure so.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: Petro Canada is an iconic Canadian brand.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: We operate one of the largest retail gas stations in Canada this year is actually our 50th birthday, so we've been around for 50 years and we have about 1600 locations offering fuel, car wash and convenience stores coast to coast.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: Petro Canada is proudly owned by Suncorp, which is Canada's leading integrated energy company, and at Petro Canada we're committing to keeping Canadians moving toward what matters most to them, and we run one of the longest running and most recognized loyalty programs PetroPoints.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: Awesome, so can you both tell us a?
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: Little bit more about your roles with the company and how you got to where you are today.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: What positions led you to this role?
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: Sure, I don't know if you want this full background, ethan.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: Honestly, it kind of is too long to share.
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: I've been with Petro Canada for almost 20 years.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: I've had an amazing and challenging career so far and I've got the opportunity to be in many different departments, such as sales operations, logistics, our transformation office, marketing and now I run our loyalty team.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: I'm also thrilled to introduce my colleague, monica Stevenson.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: She's been with my team for about a year in loyalty marketing here at Petra Canada and I'm happy that she joined us and she has extensive experience in loyalty and marketing from the airline industry.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: I think the other piece that I'll share in terms of like what keeps us up at night or why we do the work we do is really about seeking to make a difference in the lives of our customers and winning market share.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: The economy, customer preferences, gasoline demand decline and fierce competition in a commodity market like this is all very important and challenging for us to be successful.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: Awesome.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: Thank you for that.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: So what does customer loyalty mean to you at Petro Canada and how does the PetroPoints program fit into the vision you have for customer loyalty?
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: PetroPoints program fit into the vision you have for customer loyalty.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm glad that customer loyalty is so important to Petro Canada and that's where Monica and I get to come to work every day, really thinking about this exact thing, and what it means to us is really about solving problems or meeting a need for our customers that really makes them want to come back to us.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: We want to make them feel seen and heard, and our PetroPoints program and the evolution over the past 30 years has really been about adapting and driving more engagement with our members.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: Our partnership strategy really is a great example that we want to meet Canadians where they're at and we want to help them redeem for gas if they wish, but we also recognize that they may want to redeem for something much more cool than gas, um, so we have instant savings at the pump to give them cash back to do other things.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: Uh, that's with our partner rbc, or what about in?
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: Uh, enhanced flexibility of choice when it comes to redemption, and so we give them the ability.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: With petro points, they can convert it into canadian tire money and that will allow them to go and to SportCheck or Marks or other banners of Canadian Tire to find things they want, like clothing or sporting goods or houseware products.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: Very cool.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: So how is customer loyalty prioritized within your organization?
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: Well, I think that's a great question and I think it's evolved over time.
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: You can imagine, over 30 years our organizational strategy has adapted and so has our approach to customer loyalty.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: But I would say that the thing about our business and being a Canadian company is we're always thinking about Canadians and what they want, thinking about that context and adapting our approach, whether it's helping them save money or giving them a contest to win something really interesting.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: That's happening across the country and doing things locally with our associates across the country also allows us to really meet the needs and meet Canadians where they're at.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: Awesome.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: Well, you mentioned that the program has been around for 30 years and I'm sure that your loyalty and your customer experience strategy has evolved over those years.
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: How have the methods that you use to engage or reward customers changed over time, and are there any enhancements that you would like to see in the future?
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: This is a really challenging question because I think all of us have to adapt and really think about the evolutions in the context around us, and technology is a huge one.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: So one example is our loyalty program used to just have a physical card, where customers needed that card to swipe, to earn products and to redeem them, and they had to do that, for example, in the physical store.
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: But now we offer many ways to earn, many ways to save.
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: You can redeem online for gift cards.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: We have an app now where you can go into our app and you can see different offers for the store or for car wash or for fuel.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: Another example is our strategic partnerships allows members to accelerate their earn, and we do that through digital integration of organizations, which is very complex but is a significant evolution that allows customers to have a better experience.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: You know the physical card clunkiness.
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: We're taking that away and allowing them to use a digital tool.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: Everybody's using their phone, or most people are using their phone, and we're trying to really lean into how customers want to earn and redeem In the future.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: That's a tough one, I think.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: For me, the big one answer, I would say, is simplification, fragmentation, because of adding this challenge of digital and then adding the complexity of partners, there does start to be a bunch of actions and new things that we need customers to do so that they can save more or redeem, and so we can tell that, as that happens, it causes fragmentation and it causes the customer to really lack the understanding of what is the value proposition.
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: What does this partner give and what does that partner give, and what does that partner give and do those stack or not?
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: And so I think holistically in the loyalty industry, we really do need to think in the future about how to simplify.
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: Excellent, thank you.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: So when you're looking at those efforts in customer loyalty, how do you measure the success of your program?
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: What KPIs does your team work towards making sure that everything is on?
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: track.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: So again, I'm not going to bore you with the full list of things we look at, because there's many ways that we can slice and dice our loyalty program no-transcript.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: But I think at the highest level what we like to look at is loyalty penetration.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: So, relative to our retail business, is our program further engaging customers more frequently?
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: Do we have a disproportionate amount of their basket size and are we growing them more than any other person that just shows a better site?
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: So we're really looking at how do we really connect and communicate with that customer to give them value?
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: And then we see that we have more of their share of wallet.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: We also look at customer behavior and proactively plan interventions and then we want to manage and monitor those interventions.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: So if we're looking at customers that are churning, how might we see where in the lifecycle, where in the journey, are they churning and how can we give them something and do something to remind them they're valuable to us and bring them back to us?
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: And then looking at propensity modeling this is another way for us to make assumptions about the future potential of a customer and monitor that propensity.
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: And if we provide interventions, do they react to it or not and how can we more efficiently spend our dollars to engage members.
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: And then the last part is really, if you're going to move forward, as we have, with engaging with partners, it's really important that we're monitoring the success of our linked members with that partner per acquisition to making sure that we're investing in that partnership and in those members in an adequate way.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so.
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: Are there any KPIs that you wish you had more information on, or that you would like to see more industry coverage around?
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: I don't want any more KPIs, ethan, but what I do want is a 360 view of my customer.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: I would say, especially with a 30-year-old program, there is no lack of data, but it's the data connection that allows us to have informed insights that will inform decision making to make our business grow and to make the need of the customer be more met.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: So I think it's not about more is not more I say that often in many aspects of running this program but it's really about this connectedness, this integration of the data and the KPIs, that we can really understand how to drive more value for our members.
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes total sense and are there other?
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: challenges that you have regarding the measurement of.
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: Roi for your customer loyalty efforts beyond those data challenges.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't say we have challenges in measuring the ROI.
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: I think the biggest challenge, particularly in the Canadian market, from my perspective is it's very saturated from a loyalty perspective and especially in the fuel market, because we're a high frequency category, a lot of our competitors are doing a lot of great campaigns and we're trying to constantly up the ante as well, and so I think it really is about how do you differentiate and how do you capture that mindshare of that customer.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: When the average Canadian is somewhere part of approximately like 15 loyalty programs, it really gets hard for the members to really be dedicated or committed to us.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: And so I think the bigger challenge isn't so much from a KPI perspective, but it's how do we stay relevant and stay interesting and be differentiated from our competitors so that people really do want to keep coming back to Petro Canada.
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: Awesome.
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: So one of the things that I've heard you mention a couple of times is partnerships, and that's something that we continue to hear about from Loyalty 360 members pretty regularly.
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: Right now, brands are facing the challenge of creating more personalized and relevant partnerships that align with customer values and fit with their brand mission.
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: At the same time, you know this process is taking longer, as these partnerships need to be carefully assessed and developed.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: So how is your brand addressing this challenge?
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: Well, our mission at Petro Canada is to connect people to what matters most to them, so in that regard, we've taken a really intentional and values-led approach to partnerships.
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: We're really focused on quality over quantity.
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: Our goal is really to ensure that every partnership is delivering real value to our members while at the same time allowing to our brand purpose and the expectations of our members.
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: So for us, this means we're going to invest more time upfront researching customer insights, testing their alignment with our brand mission, evaluating how this potential partner could enhance the overall membership and the member experience, and also how it's going to support our business in terms of driving fuel in a very fragmented market.
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: We're also increasingly focused on personalization, so we're working to tailor our offers and our experiences with our partners based on what our members tell us they prefer and based on their past purchase behavior.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: So would you say that partnerships will have a more significant focus for you going forward?
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: I think partnerships are here to stay.
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: We're always exploring how we're going to enhance the program and we're continually assessing new opportunities.
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: For us, it's not just about finding that brand fit.
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: It's really about building that meaningful long-term partnership that feels really relevant and rewarding to our members and delivers that increased market share really relevant and rewarding to our members and delivers that increased market share.
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: And so I think by building that long-term partnership to Amanda's point we have the opportunity to simplify the message and make it even easier for members to understand the value we bring.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: Awesome.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: So when you're approaching those partnerships, how do you make sure that they're beneficial for both or all brands in some cases that are involved and that things don't become too one-sided?
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: It's a great question.
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: We believe that the most successful partnerships are really built on shared goals and transparency.
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: To make partnerships really mutually beneficial, we really have to identify our brand and our partner's values and their objectives and just understand where they intersect.
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: So, whether we both want to grow our audience or market share, whether we both want to enhance the member experience through additional flexibility in redemption opportunities, like the partnership of Canadian Tire Triangle or whether we're really trying to drive a very specific purchase or redemption behavior, we also really carefully structure the partnership in a way that's creating value for both sides.
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: So this often means a lot of conference calls, teaming up how to develop offers, sharing insights back and forth between each other and really aligning the KPI so that we all collectively feel like we're getting that win-win for all brands involved.
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: Truly, to be successful in terms of making a partnership beneficial, it's about collaboration and open communication.
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: Our partners are really an extension of our brand and we have to work together to evolve these plans and pivot based on what's working and not working and how members respond to the activities that we put in play and how members respond to the activities that we put in play, so shifting gears a little bit.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: One thing that we also continue to hear a lot about is emotional loyalty and, as a high-frequency, brand.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: How does Petro Canada work to cultivate emotional loyalty with their customers?
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so emotional loyalty is definitely on our radar.
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: We are constantly trying to unpack the ways that we can engage with Canadians.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: That goes beyond the transactions and you know maybe I don't know, ethan, about you, but I don't go to the gas station thinking about being emotionally filled up but I think there's always ways for brands to connect with people where they are, to connect with people where they are.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: So one example that maybe is unconventional or maybe not everyone knows about us, but we have a charity.
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: It's called the Petra Canada Caremakers Foundation and we support family caregivers and provide grants to organizations supporting this cause.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: To date, our Caremakers Foundation has awarded $10 million to organizations across Canada to help them provide critical resources and programs to family caregivers.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: We've also expanded our member earning and redemption options to enable them to redeem for things that bring them joy.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: So, again, not being kind of centric on our brand and our sales, but if you want to redeem on fuel, if you want to buy a new kayak, if you want to go get Halloween decorations at Party City, if you want to get new cars, tires for your car, we're really trying to think about the customer and think about, you know, when they redeem, what would bring them happiness to redeem and what are those brands.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: That, to your previous question, and Monica answered so well, is really about how do we get ourselves attached with brands where customer demand is there and that they can use our currency to go get those things, while we're constantly living our brand purpose, tramponing that Canadian spirit and trying to keep people moving to what matters to them?
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: We do believe there's so much more that can be done to try to drive that emotional connection with our customers and it's just really hard to do.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: You know we're all probably very busy, you know we have how many devices and we're really trying to take care of things in our lives and even today, in such a challenging economic environment, sometimes it really is about how do we help them save.
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: That's probably more important in the current landscape than this emotional connection.
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: However, we're trying to again understand, as Monica mentioned, through research, what are ways that people can engage with us.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: They can donate their PetroPoints to our charity if they want, instead of getting some discounts, and so it's that optionality.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: I think that does allow for that more emotional connection.
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: Awesome.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: So what do you think is the next big thing for customer loyalty or customer experience that Petro Canada is focused on or investing in?
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: Well, I wish I had a you know a material announcement to make here with you on your podcast, but I don't and I can't disclose too much.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: But my promise to you is that there are exciting new developments coming up in 2025.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: I would ask you to keep an eye on us, watch for press releases and even just watch or be as part of our program when you're members.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: You're going to see new things that we're doing to bring more value to members, that bring loyalty to us and for us to keep evolving.
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: We have been committed for the past 30 years to keep this program relevant to Canadians and we will continue to do that.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: Awesome.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: Well, we look forward to following that, and we look forward to following that, that, and we look forward to following that, and we will reach out and hopefully have you back on the podcast later this year to fill us in when you can make more definite announcements.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: I'd be happy to do that.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: Awesome.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: What are two or three things you are most proud of for your program?
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: Oh, that was a tough one.
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: There's so many things I'm proud of, particularly as a Canadian who's grown up with the Petro Canada brand in my community, I would say from a loyalty program perspective, with 30 years of experience to draw on, this program continues to evolve to provide our members with new ways to save, to earn, to redeem and stay relevant.
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: I think we've partnered with some amazing, trusted leading Canadian brands, with our banking partner RBC and our retail partner Canadian Tire Triangle Rewards.
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: They really put a strong focus on customer satisfaction and community engagement.
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: So I feel there's a really beautiful alignment there.
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: And, lastly, I would say these partnerships just provide a seamless and rewarding experience.
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: They make it so easy for our customers to maximize the benefits across multiple brands to think that you can fuel up and double dip or even triple dip.
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: So you could fuel up at Petro Canada with your linked RBC card and instantly save money off the pump, off the fuel price, and collect PetroPoints and collect Canadian tire money.
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: There's so much available.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: Can I add one thing, one near-term thing?
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: So in the last year I am most proud.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: So Monica spoke about generally our program.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: That's, our pride is really in the construct of it and what it brings to Canadians every day.
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: In the last year I am most proud that our program has experienced the most growth we have had in over a decade.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: So we have built some new elements into the program, revitalized the way we go to market, as Monica mentioned.
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: We launched Canadian Tire, we went to market with a new value proposition with RBC, and so I just want to add that I'm most proud that we are doing more than ever and it's really seeing the reaction of the marketplace and more Canadians that are jumping into the program.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: I'm just really excited about that.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: That's amazing.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: To see such growth in a legacy program like that is really, really cool.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: That's awesome.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: So a little bit of a selfish question to wrap it up is what can Loyalty360 do to help you and your program?
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: Well, I will say that, as a longtime Loyalty360 email subscriber and follower, I'm really excited to be here and to share the best practices that I'm learning.
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: But, most importantly, what I love is how Loyalty360 is always sharing case studies and best practice across the industry.
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: It is so refreshing to learn from others, to learn that others have the same business problems that you might encounter and how they're approaching it and what you might be able to take away for your members or for your program.
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: So please keep it up.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: Amazing, so glad to hear, and you know it always warms my heart when I hear someone talk about our email because, you know, most of the time I'm sending that out and just hoping that people are reading it, you know, so that's great.
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for the feedback.
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: Can I add one more thing that I think you guys can continue to do?
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: I think it's really about that thought leadership and bringing people together to share, as Monica said, challenges, but to share the vision of how can we all raise the bar in this space.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: And I think you know the conference that you hold.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: I learned so much and have really enjoyed meeting other people in totally different industries that are tackling some of the same problems that we're tackling, and so that creates this sense of community that we can all take back and be better.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: And so I think, in order for loyalty to continue to play a key role for businesses around the globe, we are going to have to, you know, do it at lower cost.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: We're going to have to manage fraud, manage data from a privacy perspective, especially in the age of digital tools, and so I think there's just this amazing opportunity and you have been doing it of bringing professionals together and that thought leadership so that we can make the loyalty space something that does drive demand for decades to come.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you for that, and we're all very much looking forward to the Loyalty Expo 2025 in Orlando coming up May 20th to the 22nd, looking forward to meeting all of you folks in person who I've talked to on the podcast and really, you know, having some time to dive into those things.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: You know, and the peer-to-peer sharing that happens at the Expo is one of the most valuable things that we do every year, so it's going to be really great.
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: This year is going to be the best one yet.
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: We have incredible speakers, so looking forward to it.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: Well, now is the time for us to do our famous quickfire questions.
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: We like to keep the answers to these to be like one word or short phrase, and you guys can take turns if you'd like, since we have two of you today, or you can both answer, if you'd like as well.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: So here we go.
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: How would you describe your work life?
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: Exciting.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: If you have a day or a week off from work, what are you doing?
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: I'm at the beach with my family.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: If you could live in any city or country, where would you live?
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: I would move to Paris.
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: Nice.
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: If you could go back to school, what would you study?
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: Naturopathic medicine.
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: I really believe in the mind-body connection.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: Awesome.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: What facet of your job would you like to know more about.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: Ai.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: What facet of your job would you like to know less about?
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: Can you ever know too much?
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: What?
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: motivates you when tackling challenges at Petro Canada.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: My amazing team.
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: What do you draw inspiration from?
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: What lights your fire?
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: Remembering- that every challenge has a face.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: What is your?
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: favorite sport or hobby?
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: Cycling.
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: And what do you typically think about at the end of the day?
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: What did I learn and how can I bring it forward into the next day?
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: Excellent, those are all great answers, and thank you both again for joining us on this week's episode of Leaders in Customer Loyalty Brand Story.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: We really enjoyed having you and hearing all about it, and if you want to meet these ladies in person, join us at the Loyalty Expo in Orlando May 20th to the 22nd and you can learn from them and a bunch of other peers and experts in the customer loyalty space Until next Thursday.
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: We will see you later, thank you.