Latest / Age Like a Badass Mother / Ep. 117: Margaret Cho on Menopause, Growing Up in a Gay Bookstore, and the Love Boat

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Ep. 117: Margaret Cho on Menopause, Growing Up in a Gay Bookstore, and the Love Boat · Age Like a Badass Mother

• 0:00
  Hi friends, I know that I gush every week, but this week's guest is the legendary Margaret Cho.
• 0:07
  Stay tuned as we talked menopause, growing up in her parents' gay bookstore, and our mutual love of multi-star TV shows like The Love Boat and Fantasy Island.
• 0:18
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• 1:07
  And now, here's Margaret Cho.
• 1:22
  When I think of badasses, I think of today's guest.
• 1:24
  She's a comedy trailblazer, she's a truth teller, sometimes tackling dark and difficult things.
• 1:31
  But I've long admired Margaret Cho.
• 1:34
  We're the same age, and from the first time I heard her comedy in the very early 90s, I understood her and I felt understood.
• 1:42
  We both grew up in colorful neighborhoods, her in San Francisco, mine in Queens, New York. And our childhoods were Both surrounded by witty, biting parents, immigrants, and the gay community.
• 1:55
  I wanted to talk to her because honestly, I can't think of anyone who's becoming more of her beautiful, authentic self. She's generous, she's forthright, and of course she's hilarious.
• 2:06
  Please welcome the legendary Margaret Cho.
• 2:09
  You can see her right now. She's out on tour Welcome Margaret.
• 2:13
  Thank you very much. What a great introduction.
• 2:16
  Thank you. I, you know, I meant it.
• 2:18
  I I've loved you for just so long and really felt a connection.
• 2:25
  Just, you know, my mom was ~ a teacher at FIT,~ Fashion Institute in New York.
• 2:29
  Mm hmm. Okay. Yeah, that's cool.
• 2:31
  And so surrounded by gay people, Yeah, totally. I know.
• 2:35
  yeah. Yeah.
• 2:36
  That's amazing. Wow, what a great that's it.
• 2:38
  Yeah, that's a great. It's a great provenance.
• 2:39
  And f and I love that.
• 2:42
  went to Fire Island as a kid. ~ Mm-hmm. Wow.
• 2:46
  I actually just watched your movie Fire Island getting ready for this interview.
• 2:49
  okay. that's great.
• 2:50
  So great. You guys, yeah, you guys can catch that on Hulu.
• 2:54
  ~ but the you know, I started thinking about having you on because a few months ago I had on Dominique DeBreaux, Mm-hmm.
• 3:04
  and she was talking about her her movie Wise Women, and you were a producer on that, Yes.
• 3:12
  and I started thinking, Well, why am I?
• 3:15
  having Margaret on, talk about badass mother.
• 3:18
  ~ thank you.
• 3:18
  I mean can ~ yeah, yeah. Why what did you what struck you about that movie that you wanted to get involved with it?
• 3:27
  I just want to talk about menopause.
• 3:29
  I think menopause is something that...
• 3:32
  we just never talked about. My mother had a hysterectomy in her 30s, so she didn't really have a menopause.
• 3:41
  didn't go through, she went through a very accelerated menopause, but she just didn't have the physical experience.
• 3:46
  And a lot of the women in my family also had hysterectomy, so I had nobody to talk me through their menopause or that idea of what menopause would be like in our family.
• 3:58
  And so now that I've been through it, I'm actually having great time. Like I really love hormone replacement therapy.
• 4:06
  I love what it can do for me physically and how I feel and ~ you know think it's really important to have gender-affirming care and so I really really loved working with Dominique and I think the film is brilliant and it is about the wisdom that we get when we're not dealing with our hormones and how much our hormones influence our thinking.
• 4:32
  throughout our lives, you know, and then to be cleared of that, it's just such a profound experience.
• 4:37
  So just want to explain that to other women who are facing menopause, who may be afraid, who are debilitated by symptoms.
• 4:45
  You know, it's nothing to be afraid of and it's a wonderful time of life.
• 4:50
  Yeah, you know, I I'm a an outlier because I'm just now barely starting to go through it.
• 4:56
  It's kind of crazy. how old were you when you went through menopause?
• 5:02
  I had Would say about now I am 57.
• 5:06
  So I think I started really around my 50s, you know, it takes a while. There's perimenopause So I probably had Yeah.
• 5:13
  perimenopausal symptoms in my late 40s like around 40.
• 5:17
  So if I'd be about 10 years 47 48 and then now I've been in menopause really in Complete menopause since I was 52 so about five years and I've been in therapy gender gender affirming care therapy hormone placement therapy I finally found the right kind of combination of hormones.
• 5:38
  So now I'm in a good, like the golden age.
• 5:40
  It's been about two years of that.
• 5:43
  My God, that's so good. How did you like w what kind of doctor did you go to?
• 5:46
  Because sometimes it's like an OBGYN, sometimes it's a urologist. So h what kind of Yes. Yes.
• 5:50
  doctor and how did you kind of get the right juice together?
• 5:54
  I found the right doctor while I was a gynecologist and she works in a women-nominated collective and so ~ it was a really great thing and she really got me on the right path to start.
• 6:08
  we worked out the first like kind of...
• 6:13
  steps and like take, you know, take, had an, used an E-String, which I don't actually don't recommend.
• 6:17
  I didn't really like it, but you know, she helped me work through different things.
• 6:21
  And so I recommend going to a gynecologist, but you know, right now it's very easy to access kind of like once you find your path, then you can go into like telemedicine, which is very, you know, it's pricey though.
• 6:36
  So what I liked about working with a gynecologist initially, so that I wasn't kind of going out of the realm of like understanding of like what I needed, you know, and then after I kind of discussed with her what I needed, then I could go to like telemedicine and I could figure it out.
• 6:53
  So fine tuning it has been a process, but I'm very happy with where I'm at there.
• 6:59
  So, I mean, there's lots of different ways to access it, but I recommend going through it first with a gynecologist.
• 7:07
  Yeah. What what kind of symptoms were you having that were affecting you?
• 7:11
  moodiness, hot flashes. ~ The worst of it is sleeplessness, insomnia.
• 7:17
  Mm. ~ That was probably the worst part of it.
• 7:21
  ~ And then, know, over time, like realizing I think progesterone was really the map.
• 7:28
  That's like the magic bullet. That's the thing that really helped low libido.
• 7:32
  ~ Dry, mean, very dry vagina like very stiff.
• 7:36
  Sandpaper, yeah. Ha wow.
• 7:37
  Yeah, sandpaper, paper stiff like the, the, the that flesh was stiff, a very, Yeah, yeah, I've heard that.
• 7:44
  ~ you know, just no sex whatsoever, like no, you know, no sexual desire whatsoever.
• 7:51
  Like that was really weird. And that sort of didn't start to get better until the addition of testosterone, which was very recent.
• 7:59
  Testosterone wow.
• 8:00
  is something that has really helped.
• 8:02
  And that ~ I really recommend.
• 8:05
  ~ I think it's really important.
• 8:05
  Are you are you also doing vaginal estrogen for I have I just have a, ~ I have vaginal estrogen that's sort of like I can use, but I've just been using a cream.
• 8:16
  I have been using a patch also.
• 8:17
  Okay.
• 8:18
  And then I also had been using the E-string, which I didn't, I thought the E-string was good, but it just was ~ so expensive because it's not covered by any kind of insurance.
• 8:28
  What I don't even know what that is.
• 8:29
  an E-string is like a, Eastering?
• 8:31
  it's kind of like a hoop that you put in that dispenses estrogen every day.
• 8:36
  ~ okay.
• 8:37
  So you don't even have to think about it. And it's sort of like, It's like an internal, it's almost like an old school diaphragm.
• 8:43
  That's what it felt like putting Yeah, yeah.
• 8:45
  in and pulling out. So it is uncomfortable to pull it in and pull it out, but it is like the shape, like an old school diaphragm, like a hoop. And it's just internal, but it just takes, it takes the guesswork out of it.
• 8:57
  You know, like I would always be like kind of concerned about the patch.
• 9:00
  Like it would fall off or I'll forget, but with the E string you would just have it in, but it was so expensive. And sometimes you couldn't get it so and that happens with patches too.
• 9:12
  ~ They could be very they could not be covered by insurance and it could be really hard to get.
• 9:17
  Mm-hmm.
• 9:18
  And are you doing like compounded, is your testosterone, is everything compounded or just over the counter?
• 9:23
  Yes, everything's compounded, everything's all compounded. And so I do that with telehealth now, because I Okay.
• 9:31
  kind of know what I need, you know, Right.
• 9:33
  in getting that initial diagnosis with the gynecologist.
• 9:36
  So I'm really comfortable with working with the telemedicine.
• 9:40
  Wow. Okay, this is great. I had no plans on talking about menopause with you, but ~ this is fantastic. But I you know, I d wanna go back to ~ and I'm glad you got it sorted because I'm I mean that's you know, that's that's brutal.
• 9:54
  Nobody deserves to have any Yeah.
• 9:54
  It's a process.
• 9:56
  Yeah, it's a process and it's like, you know, you go on a journey with your physician and then you make some decisions and then you can have options of like, okay, well now I know what I need and I can go through different channels.
• 10:08
  ~ But yeah, it's like, I am really glad that I sorted it out.
• 10:13
  Like now I feel better with everything.
• 10:16
  And so Yeah.
• 10:17
  I know what I need now. And then, you know, things might change, you know, I may need Right.
• 10:21
  more or less depending on what goes on in the next decade or so.
• 10:26
  Yeah, depending on how you feel.
• 10:27
  ~ Yeah.
• 10:28
  okay, well, thank you for the tips.
• 10:30
  That's really good.
• 10:31
  Okay.
• 10:31
  ~ so I do want to go back like to talk about your childhood because you did have such ~ a colorful childhood growing up.
• 10:41
  You know, when I was little, my mom was single and I would hide under the table.
• 10:46
  ~ when she'd have her single friends over so I could listen to their conversations.
• 10:50
  I mean, it was so funny because they'd see me go under the table and then they'd forget about me and they'd start talking about you know, sex and how big or small somebody's dick was and I like, What? Why do you would wanna know that?
• 11:01
  And what do you do? But I mean, when you were a child, did you listen in on your parents or adult conversations and try and figure out the world that way?
• 11:09
  Yeah, well I would get under the table and I would break into everybody's purse and put on their lipstick. I love lipstick.
• 11:16
  Like it just was like so transformative and so exciting to me.
• 11:20
  And just the smell and you know, like I just love it. ~ I do too.
• 11:26
  yeah, lipstick was such a, I mean, important thing as a child. It's very important now.
• 11:30
  It's the one thing that I buy probably the most of, of any makeup product. It's the one that's like kind of magical.
• 11:36
  ~ Yeah, I saw you talk about that on your Instagram. What's the one you like?
• 11:40
  E Edi Edima? E~ EAD, it's EAD, it's a lip balm.
• 11:45
  It's very expensive, I think, but it's worth it.
• 11:47
  It's ~ EADEM.
• 11:48
  What's it called?
• 11:51
  Eat Eat Eat Not a D, Edom, okay, better than edema, not a great name for a lipstick.
• 11:56
  but no, it's a good, it's a good, That's a bit it's a very good lip balm. I always need something, but now I have this lip balm, which is like, not so, it's a penis.
• 12:05
  What is that? I was gonna say it looks like also looks like you smoke out of it.
• 12:11
  It is almost like a bomb. It's Isamaya.
• 12:13
  Isamaya is an amazing makeup artist and she has this line that she, my god.
• 12:19
  but she created, but this is refillable because it's so heavy, my God, it's so funny. Penis shaped but it's like a piece of art.
• 12:24
  lipstick and what's that one called?
• 12:26
  Wait, tell me again.
• 12:26
  It's it's it's Isamaya. I-A-I-S-A-M-A-Y-A Isamaya. But she's a beautiful makeup artist.
• 12:35
  Isamaya. Okay, put him in the show notes.
• 12:37
  Yeah, she's a my god, I love it.
• 12:39
  she's great. So I have this always at my side everywhere,~ my God. So you but it's very it's very heavy.
• 12:47
  didn't listen in on your parents trying to figure out what was going I didn't.
• 12:50
  on or?
• 12:50
  I did listen in, well, I would listen into conversations as I grew up in a gay bookstore. So Yes.
• 12:56
  my parents would leave me to ~ the employees who are all gay men.
• 13:01
  One woman, one butch lesbian was there.
• 13:05
  And ~ they were all talking about Harvey Milk.
• 13:09
  They were talking Yeah.
• 13:10
  about ~ gay bashings that were happening in the neighborhood.
• 13:15
  They were talking about their boyfriends.
• 13:18
  ~ And they were very~ open with me and kind of trying to explain their world because their their was totally gay because in the 70s in San Francisco there was a community of like a hundred and fifty thousand gay men who would pretty much all come to the city to just be gay and be free and be out of the closet and have boyfriends and and make love and wear super faded 501s and flannel shirts and and they all had sort of feathered hair and aviator glasses.
• 13:54
  And ~ it was just so fabulous.
• 13:57
  know, there's just like this incredible like male beauty, but they all kind of look the same.
• 14:04
  Everybody had a bomber jacket and ~ big engineer boots.
• 14:08
  And it so cute. It was really cool.
• 14:09
  My God. And also, how safe for a little girl to be around Yeah.
• 14:14
  gay men, right? You know, that's so perfect.
• 14:15
  Yeah, they loved it.
• 14:17
  They loved me and they loved that they had like a little doll baby.
• 14:22
  Yeah.
• 14:23
  You know, so it was a very, it was a really beautiful environment to grow up in.
• 14:28
  But then Harvey Milk was assassinated, which was terrifying. I mean, Yeah. Right.
• 14:33
  that was so terrifying. And then ~ right after that, AIDS. So you had Yeah.
• 14:41
  this thing of like the slow degeneration of this community, which had been, you know, vitality was kind of a beauty trait.
• 14:48
  You know, was just these healthy, beautiful young men and very Right.
• 14:52
  slowly every day, little by little, they look tired.
• 14:55
  And then they had a cane, and they had car parses, so coma all over their face. And then they were in a wheelchair, and then they were gone. And ~ my god.
• 15:04
  so it was a really devastating experience to to witness.
• 15:10
  mean, didn't you feel that too, if your mother was teaching at the time?
• 15:14
  Yeah. You know, I she by the time the AIDS epidemic came around, we had moved to Houston. And so she was she was teaching, but she was teaching at like University of Houston.
• 15:26
  It wasn't like that same kind of gay community that she had.
• 15:29
  So I didn't have ~ a front row, you know, experience with that.
• 15:35
  And so that's just so that's so s heartbreaking.
• 15:39
  That's really I bet.
• 15:39
  It was so terrible. It was really shocking.
• 15:42
  And then a lot of our employees died.
• 15:45
  It was really scary.
• 15:46
  my god.
• 15:49
  then the whole financial ~ environment of the street that we were on collapsed because of all of the businesses were losing all of their customers. They were losing workers.
• 16:02
  And it was like Yeah.
• 16:04
  we as a community just completely died alongside it.
• 16:09
  went under because they couldn't make a living.
• 16:13
  They couldn't pay their rent because there was nobody to come by to read.
• 16:19
  we carried Italian vogue. We carried all of the vogue, like yeah.
• 16:24
  British vogue, and the Interview magazine, man.
• 16:27
  which was gigantic, those huge interview magazines, Mm-hmm.
• 16:31
  and Women's Wear Daily, and then all of the Haunt Show and Blue Boy, and all of those magazines.
• 16:38
  my God.
• 16:39
  big business in like the magazines that gay men were going to read, you know, because we were like a newsstand also.
• 16:44
  my god. Yeah.
• 16:46
  So that that's sort of like, you know, nobody was buying the giant Italian vogue, nobody was buying the men's vogue, you know. ~ That's so s that's horrifying. That's so sad.
• 16:57
  It was really, really horrible.
• 16:59
  It was really sad. yeah, I think when I think back on that period, I think it was so devastating that it was almost like surreal. And then growing Yeah.
• 17:11
  up with that, think that your life is ~ so,~ you're living in disaster zone.
• 17:22
  Yeah.
• 17:22
  You know, so you have a bit of survivor's guilt, but also you don't think that you're gonna live past a certain time.
• 17:28
  I started doing comedy in the midst of all this, in all of this ~ AIDS fundraising and ACT UP and learning how to be an activist and also learning how to be a comedian.
• 17:42
  So I think that's sort of what set me up for my life, because that was kind of my training ground.
• 17:48
  Yeah.
• 17:48
  It seems like you've always done that, been been an activist for especially Yeah.
• 17:53
  for people who, you know, well, Yeah.
• 17:55
  I that's a the definition I was gonna say of people who don't have a voice, but that's the definition of an activist.
• 18:00
  But ~ you how did your parents come to have a gay bookstore in the first place?
• 18:06
  That's so wild.
• 18:06
  I don't know.
• 18:07
  I don't know. I and it was really confusing to me.
• 18:10
  It's something that I still don't really quite understand.
• 18:12
  I think part of it is that my father is very handsome.
• 18:16
  Yeah.
• 18:17
  And he when they immigrated to the United States, he was shocked because nobody noticed it.
• 18:23
  Because I think there was no BTS, there was no Korean dramas, there Right.
• 18:27
  was no Netflix Korean dramas, they didn't know it was so racist, that it Sure.
• 18:31
  was impossible for anybody to fathom that a Korean man could be beautiful, that he was like really beautiful.
• 18:38
  And so when he would go around, he wanted to have a bookstore.
• 18:42
  So we went and met with these people who had a gay bookstore and they were fawning all over him, falling all over themselves because he was so gorgeous.
• 18:51
  And when he'd go to these gay neighborhoods, everybody would like look at him.
• 18:55
  And I think he was seduced by the attention, you know, and so he wanted to be in the business with people.
• 19:03
  I mean, I don't know. My father has probably...
• 19:07
  some tendencies, he's still alive.
• 19:09
  has he but they painted him. They painted portraits of him.
• 19:13
  All the gay men painted, drew his image he's which he still has all over his Like those are his prized possessions are these like That's hilarious. Yes.
• 19:23
  paintings of his beauty from when he was younger.
• 19:27
  So I, I think it's vanity.
• 19:28
  I y that's hilarious and I I know that your mom has I've heard you talk about your mom saying about his special friend and your mom Yes.
• 19:39
  talking about the book like can you tell me about that?
• 19:41
  That just cracks me up.
• 19:42
  Well, my mother talks about this famous story about my father's best friend who like was in love with him and they were in Korea and and then, you know, they went on a picnic together and his friend told him he loved him and tried to kiss him and my dad punched him and never saw him again.
• 20:01
  And so my mother said when you have friends who is gay, don't punch. Don't punch your gay friend because then you'll never see them again.
• 20:10
  And so, you my dad has always just had a lot of admirers and then you know when he was faced with the racism of America in the 1960s he didn't and then when in the 70s when he came across all of these gay men who were there as admirers he was like I I realize who I am they he made me they made him feel like he was himself you know he identified as a handsome man so I think that's what it is Yeah, that's fabulous. Yeah, did that's that's wild. Did you ~ how d how old were you when you came out to your parents and what'd they say?
• 20:46
  Well, I think also my parents knew that I was gay and that was another reason why they wanted me to be around gay people.
• 20:55
  Really?
• 20:56
  So I think they had a kind of awareness of me being different.
• 21:03
  ~ And then I never, I came out, they were not, ~ they were like,~ you know, we already know. So that's Wow.
• 21:13
  okay. Like you don't really need to, what like later came out as bisexual that really disturbed them.
• 21:20
  Why because they don't believe in bisexuality.
• 21:22
  They think that, No spectrum.
• 21:24
  no, they don't think there's a spectrum.
• 21:26
  They think you're gay or you're straight.
• 21:27
  That's it.
• 21:29
  And Or that you're trans or you're not.
• 21:32
  That's it.
• 21:32
  Okay.
• 21:33
  You know, they're like, you can't be non-binary, you can't be bisexual. Those things my god.
• 21:38
  to them, the shades of gray don't exist.
• 21:41
  So it's a very old school mentality around queerness, how it's not a spectrum that you are what you are, and then you become what you are.
• 21:51
  that's, you know, it's interesting.
• 21:53
  That's it. But it at least they were accepting.
• 21:55
  It's like weird, it's totally accepting, Right. That that's awesome though.
• 21:58
  but not a bisexuality. But they're like, But the not a bisexuality.
• 22:01
  they're like, we're okay with you but you have to decide But you have to only be gay.
• 22:07
  yeah or you have to only be straight Or straight. Okay.
• 22:11
  You know, like it's great if you're straight.
• 22:12
  It's great if you're gay, but if you go back and forth, that's a problem. And they're my god.
• 22:20
  still very, you know, not very movable about that. They're really fixed in that.
• 22:28
  I mean, that's a bit, that's how they, I mean, they're so progressive in so many ways, Yeah they are but that's the one thing that they're just like, we don't, we don't play with that.
• 22:36
  And I'm like, okay, okay, whatever.
• 22:38
  Okay, fine. ~ w how That's fine.
• 22:40
  old are they now?
• 22:42
  They're 90, 90, 91.
• 22:44
  They're 90.
• 22:45
  How like what lessons have you learned from watching them age?
• 22:48
  Are they still like on the go or are they slowed down?
• 22:50
  No, they've really No, no.
• 22:52
  slowed down. mean, my dad is like super popular.
• 22:55
  They live in a senior community and he's super I'm sure he is.
• 22:58
  popular because he's got all of his own teeth.
• 23:01
  man.
• 23:02
  and he doesn't have a walker or a wheelchair.
• 23:05
  So he walks around unaided everywhere.
• 23:07
  My god.
• 23:08
  He walks real fast and has all his own teeth, which is quite, I mean he's like the George Clooney of the place.
• 23:15
  And then my mother is, you know, she's in dementia now she's got it, which is really weird and really Mm, that's so sad.
• 23:22
  sad and scary, but also kind of funny.
• 23:25
  Like it's kind of, it's good she's scary herself and then she's very not like in dementia she's learned how to text.
• 23:32
  which is so different. So you know my god.
• 23:34
  there's all these new things but yeah I mean I think that they're they've always been really physically active and so that helps but yeah they're definitely slowing way down but they're in they're in good health which is good.
• 23:48
  That's good.
• 23:48
  So you think b staying active's been a good lesson for you?
• 23:51
  Yeah.
• 23:52
  Yeah, I mean, I am much more lazy than they've ever been.
• 23:56
  You know, I'm much more like, I do not move around.
• 24:00
  mean, the only thing that I do is like, have to walk my dog a lot because Yeah.
• 24:04
  she needs a lot of activity. And I have three cats who do keep me running around because I have to play with them.
• 24:10
  four animals will keep you active no matter what.
• 24:15
  Whether you don't want to be, you cannot kind of be lazy at all because they run the roost. It's their place.
• 24:22
  man, that's really funny.
• 24:24
  Yeah, and I've seen pictures of your dog.
• 24:26
  She's adorable. She's so cute.
• 24:27
  She's a beautiful girl.
• 24:28
  Little she is, what's her name?
• 24:30
  Lucia Catarina.
• 24:32
  ~ Lucia Katerina. She's a little she's what do you is she there?
• 24:37
  She's always at...
• 24:38
  ~ baby girl, for anybody watching, most people are listening, but look how cute she is.
• 24:43
  She's a little chihuahua. You s sh I heard you say that she's a Chihuahu and Dalmatian mix. No, Yeah, I don't really see it but she's about five pounds.
• 24:50
  I don't see it. Yeah, she's all Chihuahua.
• 24:51
  And she's very sweet.
• 24:54
  She's so sweet, She's just sleeping here. She's right here.
• 24:57
  I baby girl.
• 24:58
  She's a good girl.
• 25:00
  well so okay, so this is one of the things that I'm so fascinated w about with you, is that, you know What first of all, what do you think some of the things that society does to women to distract us from being in our power?
• 25:16
  And what have you done to overcome these things?
• 25:18
  Cause I just think that you are so powerful.
• 25:22
  Well, it's this idea that...
• 25:24
  We're not viable unless we have children or some have a partner or, know, and I'm single. I don't have kids.
• 25:33
  I'm so grateful to be both childless Right.
• 25:36
  and single. Like I don't want to be in a relationship with anybody.
• 25:40
  I mean, it would be fine if it happened, but I've spent my life being in service to partners and it was never good.
• 25:49
  And now I realize like, I'm just really much better.
• 25:54
  alone.
• 25:55
  And there's a side idea that if you're alone, there's just something wrong with that, that there's something or you're going to die alone.
• 26:04
  I'm like, that's the plan. That's what I hope, you know, that would actually be the best case scenario.
• 26:10
  You know. But I think that yeah, if you don't have children that there's something wrong with you or that you're setting yourself up for loneliness.
• 26:18
  And I'm like, ~ no, I don't. I don't see it that way at all.
• 26:23
  But yeah, I that it's just like this myth that we for some reason have to be in service to a family or have to be in service to children or to a husband or a wife even.
• 26:34
  You know I just Yeah.
• 26:35
  I don't want to be tied to anything.
• 26:38
  Well I mean that's yeah, there's just so many things that were put on us, you know, as that we're just now undoing.
• 26:48
  Like I think you're right about you have to have a partner, you have to have children, you have to look a certain way.
• 26:53
  And I f yeah, thin, Botoxed.
• 26:53
  You have to be like thin or young looking like that, like this eight.
• 26:58
  Yeah. I mean, I do like a bit of that.
• 27:01
  And I, I do like, I like sculpture.
• 27:03
  I think sculpture is better because it sort of utilizes your own.
• 27:03
  Yeah, I used to do sculpture, huh.
• 27:05
  It's a fun one. It's you use your, use your own collagen.
• 27:08
  I love any of that stuff, but I also feel like you should just do it because you want to, because not because Right.
• 27:16
  there's like a societal demand for you to like look a certain way.
• 27:21
  mean, I just kind of don't care.
• 27:24
  also. ~ But it's also fun. Like I like makeup and I like dressing up and you know fashion is really fun for me.
• 27:32
  So those things are an extension Yes.
• 27:34
  of that but that shouldn't be a societal requirement that we have to look a certain way.
• 27:40
  Yeah. Especially when we were growing up.
• 27:43
  And I you know, I remember when you had All American Girl, the T V show, and ~ I know you've talked at length about that, so I don't know how much you want to talk about it, but it feels like, you know, you were supposed to look a certain way, even after the the TV executives knew what you looked like and then we're gonna put Right.
• 28:03
  you in this show. And then so can you tell us what happened?
• 28:05
  Well, no, but they had built a show around me and then told me I was too, This is in the early nineties, yeah, right?
• 28:10
  in 1994. And then they told me that I was too fat to play the role of myself, which is like insane. Cause it's like, it's not like I was cast. I was, Right.
• 28:19
  it was like developed around me.
• 28:20
  So I wasn't cast into a role.
• 28:24
  The role was written, specifically for me.
• 28:27
  And yet I couldn't fit in something that was written specifically for me.
• 28:31
  And that is just so ludicrous, but I was so young and terrified.
• 28:35
  Because I didn't understand, you know, when you're that age, like you didn't know, like I didn't know anything about television.
• 28:41
  And it was like my first big TV job.
• 28:43
  And I didn't, I just didn't know.
• 28:44
  So I, I, I, I treated it like they were my employers when actually I was employing them. Like I didn't realize I was the star.
• 28:52
  And I, and that was unfortunately like my undoing, cause I just didn't realize how much power I actually had.
• 28:59
  But, you know, it's taken me a lifetime to really step into that power, which Sometimes it does.
• 29:07
  That's the thing that I love about this age is because like if if that happened to you now, it's so didn't you lose like thirty pounds in two weeks or something Yeah! have kidney failure and yeah.
• 29:16
  Yeah, it was insane. Yeah. I mean, I was in a state of like, just extreme anorexia and I did a lot of damage to my body and I had to be hospitalized and it was really terrifying.
• 29:27
  ~ I thought it was because I had to be thin and I had to be, Right.
• 29:31
  had to, and now I realize none of that made any sense.
• 29:36
  And Right.
• 29:38
  I didn't have to go through that.
• 29:40
  But also they were also like, television was so different.
• 29:46
  You know, we didn't know like that women didn't have to do any of those things.
• 29:52
  Like we didn't know that we could say no.
• 29:54
  You know, we didn't have that knowledge or that sort of attitude yet.
• 30:00
  Your body positivity was still like 20 years down the line.
• 30:04
  You wouldn't have encountered that until like the 2015, 2014. Like, you know, you wouldn't see it.
• 30:10
  So it was just a very, it was just a very ludicrous time, a very difficult time to be a woman at all. ~ Yeah.
• 30:19
  But, you know, now I kind of look at it like, well, it's sort of just another thing that you go,~ I learned a lot from my experience.
• 30:29
  And that's probably more valuable.
• 30:29
  Yeah. Yeah. I know.
• 30:32
  That's what yeah, that's what I was saying that I love about being this age because I feel like I at this age wouldn't be bullied into anything or, you know, that I could stand up for myself.
• 30:42
  But it does take a long time to learn that, to get the lessons, you know, that you Yeah.
• 30:47
  can't let anybody the make you feel a certain way.
• 30:51
  You are responsible for how you feel.
• 30:54
  And those are some of the l the That's right.
• 30:55
  lessons that I love about being this age.
• 30:57
  ~ Yeah.
• 30:59
  You know, I I wanna ~ you know, we have a friend in common also.
• 31:04
  ~ well she's your friend, my she's an acquaintance of mine, Janine Garaffalo. Are you still in touch with her?
• 31:09
  she's great. Yeah, you know, she's a genius.
• 31:10
  She's great, right? Yes, mean, she is like, she is.
• 31:14
  she is so phenomenal. And I mean, I think she was so influential to myself and so many people.
• 31:23
  ~ you know, in the 90s and beyond.
• 31:26
  Mm-hmm.
• 31:27
  But you know, I don't see her very much.
• 31:28
  ~ Every once in while I'll see her at a comedy festival or something.
• 31:31
  But I'm Yeah.
• 31:32
  just in awe of her. ~ I taught her how to smoke cigarettes.
• 31:37
  So I don't I don't~ you are so good.
• 31:40
  I don't know what I've been able to offer her in return.
• 31:44
  But she's a she's an amazing person.
• 31:45
  That's so funny. That I have a best friend like well, I have a friend like that, and sh she I she let me cheat off of her in tenth grade and I told her I taught her how to smoke cigarettes and then it Mm-hmm.
• 31:56
  was terrible. She had to go to what is it, hypnotherapy to stop smoking. I felt so terri.
• 32:02
  I felt I think Jenny still smokes.
• 32:04
  my God. Look what you did to her, Margaret.
• 32:07
  I know.
• 32:08
  That's terrible. Yeah, I've lost touch with her, but sh we used to ~ It when I lived in Houston, she lived in Houston.
• 32:15
  This is like 19 1988. This was we used to work at comedy workshop together. She was doing stand-up and I was in the cabaret doing like sketch comedy and we'd go out dancing sometime.
• 32:28
  But yeah, she was phenomenal and ~ I remember running into her like in West Hollywood. My parents moved out to West Hollywood and ran into her at a bar.
• 32:37
  She was with Colin Quinn.
• 32:39
  This is so long ago I didn't even know who he was.
• 32:40
  Yup. Yup.
• 32:41
  That and she had just booked Larry Sanders, but I had no idea.
• 32:44
  ~ yeah, yeah, it was a long t long time ago.
• 32:44
  I remember that time. Yeah, I was right there.
• 32:47
  I was right there with her and Colin all the time.
• 32:50
  Yeah, she my God.
• 32:51
  loved him.
• 32:53
  Yes, they were friends. okay, so like what what we're gonna wrap this up in in a second, but what ~ what are you like watching now?
• 33:03
  What are your favorite like shows or books or do you like to read?
• 33:07
  I do like to read right now I'm reading how I lost 10 pounds in 53 years by Kay Ballard. It's so funny.
• 33:14
  ~ my god, that's hilarious.
• 33:17
  And it's autographed.
• 33:19
  Who is it? Kay Ballard? my god, Kay Ballard, she was a really cool.
• 33:23
  I know who she is.
• 33:24
  Yeah, she was a really cool star, like on stage and screen. I mean, Yes.
• 33:29
  everything movies, game shows, really big in the 60s 70s to 80s.
• 33:32
  Yes. Wasn't she on Didn't she have like a show where they were like mother in laws or something?
• 33:39
  Was that her? ~ my god, I'm sure that's right. I don't know.
• 33:42
  But I just I I know her mostly from game shows, but she's hilarious. And ~ Yes, match game and all the yeah, Walter Cronkite gave a blurb.
• 33:51
  And so did Rex Reed. So I'm reading.
• 33:52
  my God, it's it's an old book.
• 33:53
  I do love a That's hilarious.
• 33:55
  celebrity by autobiography. ~ My God.
• 33:59
  So I'm actually reading Hayden Pettinette's one right now.
• 34:02
  wow.
• 34:03
  ~ She's really heartbreaking, actually.
• 34:05
  But That is so heartbreaking.
• 34:07
  I do love, I do, I'm a big fan of the celebrity autobiography.
• 34:11
  think they're really interesting.
• 34:12
  Yeah.
• 34:13
  But the historical ones like these are really cool.
• 34:15
  I have this one.
• 34:15
  Yeah, yeah. What are you watching?
• 34:18
  I am watching a lot of wife swap from the 2010s, 2010s and 2011s.
• 34:24
  My God.
• 34:27
  I don't know what it is. The 2010s reality television is so weird that the things that they would make people do.
• 34:34
  So there's a wife swap that I just watched.
• 34:36
  It was like a banjo family band ~ swapped with~ a rapper, a rapper's mom.
• 34:47
  And ~ my god.
• 34:48
  the Banjo family bands like super like they were like bluegrass band.
• 34:52
  They're very strict, very Christian, very like, you know, they kids were not allowed devices, they were not allowed social anything, no social life, no television, whatever. And then the rapper, you know, they like smoked in the house, like all this stuff. And then so that one was really crazy.
• 35:10
  And then after many like 10 years after the episode aired in the band, one of the sons and the banjo killed the mom and another one of the sons.
• 35:19
  So it was like a horrible wow, that took a turn.
• 35:22
  family murder, you know, but it was like the family atmosphere was so strict because they wouldn't let their sons go on dates.
• 35:29
  They wouldn't let them have like any kind of contact.
• 35:32
  They were like homeschooled. They didn't have ~ any access to entertainment.
• 35:38
  no music and no television, nothing, only the banjo and church.
• 35:45
  ~~ shit.
• 35:47
  so strict and Well crazy. And then the guy, the one of the younger sons killed the baby, the baby, the youngest son and the mom.
• 35:54
  Yeah, Okay, wow, that took a dark turn.
• 35:57
  Holy shit my god.
• 35:58
  very crazy. So it, but I've been watching a lot because it's all on Hulu.
• 36:03
  Right.
• 36:03
  All all of the seasons of White Swap is on Hulu and it's so nuts.
• 36:06
  my god, I forgot about that show.
• 36:07
  There is one family It's so crazy. There's one family who they~ were so like they didn't wash.
• 36:16
  didn't. They believed in bacteria.
• 36:18
  They didn't cook any of their food.
• 36:20
  So it was all raw meat and they didn't use toothpaste.
• 36:24
  They made What?
• 36:25
  toothpaste out of butter and clay.
• 36:27
  And that was their toothpaste.
• 36:28
  God. ~ my God. That is so awful.
• 36:29
  And they said it would taste like blue cheese.
• 36:31
  It's so nuts. And they they That's disgusting.
• 36:35
  swapped with a like a really, really high end classy like stylist family from San Francisco who were like only wore designer clothes only went out to dinner like went out to eat twice a day like it was they swat I was so insane I Mean, my God. That's cuckoo.
• 36:53
  but you gotta watch it All of them are kind of like that.
• 36:57
  Like all of Wiveswap. And I did a Wiveswap with ~ Holly Pete, You did?
• 37:02
  Holly Robinson Pete. Yeah, with my family and Holly Robinson's Pete family.
• 37:07
  And they were such beautiful kids.
• 37:08
  Like her kids were so beautiful and sweet.
• 37:12
  And like I had the best time. And then my parents didn't want Holly to leave.
• 37:18
  They just wanted Holly to stay with them.
• 37:19
  My God.
• 37:20
  They were like, we love her. We would prefer that she stay with us and Prefer ~ you just stay over there.
• 37:26
  my God And like, it was so funny. So it was different.
• 37:29
  Like, we're totally different.
• 37:30
  wasn't like, we were actually well matched.
• 37:34
  Like, I had a really good time with her kids and she had a really good time with my parents, but it was very funny.
• 37:39
  my god. It's so funny. She was with your parents, not with your wife. my God. It was like a family swap.
• 37:42
  Yeah, right. Because it was like, they just did, so I wasn't married.
• 37:46
  So they just did, like a family swap. But it was really, it was really cute. But my experience is totally different than the wife swap where it was just literally a Right.
• 37:56
  wife and they move it but because they, My god.
• 37:59
  they made the most oppositional choices.
• 38:02
  Yeah, of course. That's what makes good TV.
• 38:04
  Yeah.
• 38:06
  It's so insane, though, like it's actually abusive.
• 38:09
  Like it's actually abusive Yeah.
• 38:11
  to make somebody change their lifestyle so much that it's it's bad on both sides.
• 38:15
  So I recommend there's so much television out there.
• 38:19
  We need to go back not that far, just about 10 years. And you'll see My god.
• 38:24
  a totally different world of like, we can't my god.
• 38:28
  do this anymore, because the murders happen out of That's stuff like that. There's a lot of like true crime kind of stuff that happened in reality TV like, you know, in the Yeah. Yes.
• 38:39
  last 26 years. ~ but yeah, so that's what I watch pretty much exclusively.
• 38:42
  That's dark. my god. You are so f that is very dark, Margaret.
• 38:49
  It's very dark. It's very dark.
• 38:50
  did what what shows did you watch when you were a kid?
• 38:54
  I love like Charlie's Angels and Love Boat.
• 38:56
  I love it. I love it. An hour long many guest stars like so Mm-hmm.
• 39:02
  a Love Boat, a Fantasy Islands like is great.
• 39:05
  Yes, that was my favorite.
• 39:06
  I love, yeah, Mm-hmm.
• 39:07
  like a lot of little stories with lot of guest stars.
• 39:10
  And I wish that they had that kind of programming and now like I would love, I mean, I did Dr. Odyssey, which is, was they, they tried to relaunch as a new love boat, Yeah, I was gonna say that's mm-hmm.
• 39:20
  which was actually really beautiful.
• 39:20
  Yeah. You were on that? ~ my god.
• 39:22
  I mean, yeah, I was on it. ~ I was on it with Amy Sideris. We had a great time.
• 39:28
  my god, I missed that episode, but I did start watching that.
• 39:29
  It was beautiful. It's a beautiful show.
• 39:30
  Wow. Yeah, it is a good show.
• 39:32
  It's a really beautiful show.
• 39:34
  So unfortunately it's not around, it is. I loved it because I thought how glitzy and glamorous to have like, it's like, love a lot of guest stars.
• 39:43
  You know, I love that kind of stuff.
• 39:43
  Yes. Yeah.
• 39:45
  So, but I also like to watch, ~ I've always had a bond is for like British crime shows. So that's a big thing.
• 39:56
  I do watch a lot of like happy Valley or~ Line of Duty is a good one. Those are actually like early 2000s things,~ but those are good, Okay. I've never watched those.
• 40:06
  I don't watch that kind yeah.
• 40:08
  of thing. Huh. I've been watching Gilmore Girls right now, re-watching that. I mean, my God.
• 40:12
  yeah, that's great too. Yeah, that's great too.
• 40:13
  So good. Love it. ~ I love it. Yeah.
• 40:16
  well, I've loved talking to you.
• 40:19
  So thank you so much for your time.
• 40:21
  And like I said, ~ you're out on tour right now.
• 40:21
  Thank you. Yes.
• 40:24
  Tell us a little bit about that.
• 40:25
  People can come see me. It's ~ the Choligarchy Show.
• 40:29
  I'm all over the place and they can go to margaretcho.com to get tickets.
• 40:33
  Okay. Well, thank you for everything, Margaret. I love talking to you.
• 40:36
  Thank you. Thank you. Bye.
• 40:37
  Take care. Bye bye.