Latest / Mortgage Marketing Radio / Ep 145: The $200 Million Dollar Man on Building a High Trust Referral Business Closing 400 Loans

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Ep 145: The $200 Million Dollar Man on Building a High Trust Referral Business Closing 400 Loans · Mortgage Marketing Radio

0:00
In today's highly competitive mortgage industry, building profitable relationships with
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real estate agents is essential for success.
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However, finding effective ways to secure agent relationships can be a challenge.
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With so many mortgage loan originators vying for the attention of real estate agents,
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it can be difficult to stand out and establish meaningful connections.
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Our new case study featuring loan officer Chris Cogill is a must-read.
0:25
This has closed a remarkable 36 million in funded loans from agent referrals.
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And in this case study, he shares his proven strategies for building strong relationships
0:35
with real estate agents and leveraging those relationships to drive more business.
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To get your hands on this resource, head over to LOKestudy.com and download your free copy
0:45
of the case study today.
0:47
You'll find actionable insights and practical tips that Chris used to close 36 million
0:52
in funded loans from agent referrals and how you can, too.
0:56
Don't miss out.
0:57
Go check it out right now, visit LOKestudy.com and download your free copy today.
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Welcome to Mortgage Marketing Radio.
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Brought to you by the Mortgage Marketing Institute, your number one source for truth in
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Mortgage Marketing.
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Hey listeners, what is up Jeff Zimper, your host for another episode of the Mortgage
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Marketing Radio podcast.
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Appreciate you being here.
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We're going to jump right into it today.
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Boom.
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This week's review comes from Mark Orrigal.
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Mark says, Hey Jeff, just wanted to let you know I've been listening to your podcast
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for a little under five months now and I got to say I've learned so much.
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All of the special guests are very insightful into their specific fields and it's great
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Keep up the wonderful content.
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Hey Mark, you keep it up, man.
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You keep up listening.
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Keep up doing what you're doing, being who you are, man, and hit me up on the Facebook's
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so you can get yourself that podcast white box.
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Okay, our special guest for this episode is Corey Kavanewski.
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Corey is a veteran in the Mortgage business having been in it since 2002 and he's been
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a top-ranked Mortgage professional based down in Coronado, California for quite a number
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of years.
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And for 2019, he's tracking 220,400 units.
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So he's had a nice significant growth over his 2018 numbers.
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But those are just some amazing figures and that production amount, right?
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That number of families that he's helped is personal volume production.
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It's not coming from a team that he has out originating on his behalf.
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And what you'll find about Corey is that he's built a very traditional Mortgage origination
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model that is largely based on trusted referral partner relationships and we unpack kind
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of his strategies for doing that.
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A lot of our focus is around financial planners.
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He talks about, while he is on Zelo for reviews, right, Zelo is not his business model,
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not everybody's right for Corey, not everybody's right for you and your business model.
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So that's a great lesson to take out of this.
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But we have a nice straight up conversation about building, like I said, this high trust,
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high referral, high conversion style of a Mortgage originator business.
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And Corey's also licensed in 25 states, which for him equates to about 10 loans per month
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on average, possibly even more 10 loans on month per average that he's originating because
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he's licensed in personally in 25 different states and his company's licensed in 50 states.
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So an incredible achievement from Corey and Corey's with CMG Financial and just killing
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it, rocking it and doing some amazing things.
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So let's get into this week's show Corey, welcome to the show.
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Thanks so much.
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I'm happy to be here.
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I'm happy to have you, especially knowing you're incredibly busy schedule.
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You were doing some incredible things down there in the beautiful city of Coronado, California,
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which is one of my favorite places to visit whenever I'm back in Cali.
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But let's do this for the listeners.
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You know, it's funny and prepping for this.
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I was just checking out your social media and things like that and you've obviously been
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interviewed a number of times.
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And why don't you do this?
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Just a quick, your personal background, how long you'd have been in the biz, what was
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2018 units and volume for you and just kind of get into that however you want.
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Okay, sure.
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Yeah.
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Well, thanks.
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I've been in the business since 2002, 2018 dollar volume was around $150 million.
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And as far as the units, I'm going to do a little math here, about 320 units, yeah,
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320 units.
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What's the bulk of that, the source of that business?
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Well, there's not one bulk source, but there's sort of three big ones.
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First of all, database management.
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I'm huge on that.
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So we're constantly sort of mining the database, keeping in touch with our customers.
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That's a big one.
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So just people coming back, hey, I'm moving over here now, I'm refinancing this.
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I need to, you know, buy a rental, second home, whatever.
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So a lot of that, a lot of financial planner business as well.
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I find that my business aligns really well with financial planning and I've done that
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sort of on on purpose and that's sort of the way financial advisors, good ones run their
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business is the way I like to run mine, you know, so a very professional, very good
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communication.
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Those are things that I spend a lot of focus on and value at.
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Not price so much value at is really, so I find that financial advisors align really
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well with that.
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And then real estate agents for and a different group of real estate agents probably than your
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average wise, you know, definitely I'm working with the realtors that really get it and
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understand the value that we add and appreciate that for them and for their customers.
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So those are the big, that's the bulk of it, those three.
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Yeah, and I know there's, we're going to focus on a financial planner aspect in just
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a couple of minutes because I think you're doing some pretty cool things there.
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And you say realtors that get it and understand the value add, so right, this is a debate
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that's been going on since the dawn of time, right, about value you're bringing, so what
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do you mean by value add from your standpoint to realtors?
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Well, for realtors, my value add really is is that, you know, if I say I can do something
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we do it, you know, we don't close later than we say we will, we don't say yes and
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say, well, there's a stag, we got to make a change.
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We have a very consistent loan process that takes sometimes more time on the front side,
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but that delivers results at a rating of nearly 100%.
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So the realtor that gets it is the realtor that says, you know, look, I understand that
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there may be a better rate or something more attractive elsewhere, but the risks are
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not worth it in the consistency and the results that we get going this direction are worth
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it, you know, and really good realtors understand that.
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The best realtors I work with are not necessarily the highest producing realtors, although they
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are significantly productive, but they are realtors that are very efficient and that
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provide a very good service and that do very well because they have partly because they
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have a reliable group of professionals that they can bring in to help them.
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They're team mates, we're partners, you know, and so they can sort of rinse and repeat,
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you know, really well when they know everything that's going to, you know, how it's going
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on and how it's going to work and all of that.
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So yeah, and they also happen to be the best at directing business or referring business.
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Yeah, so now that's an excellent point right there.
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And that goes back to I think what you say, the realtors that get it because you could
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work with a lot of realtors and you probably have turned down some realtors in your career,
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right?
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Yeah, all the time.
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Yes.
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How do you get to that point where you're saying no to realtors is that after a conversation
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you find out that they're not the right fit, not the right mindset, how do you usually
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reach that decision?
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Well, yeah, I mean, typically it's, you know, through maybe working on a transaction or
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two and, you know, seeing that maybe their expectations maybe aren't in line with what
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yours would be.
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And typically when that happens for me, what I do is I just, I have a meeting with them and
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make sure that we're on the same page and they may tell me that, you know, they want something
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different than what I'm able or willing to do, you know, and in those cases, I just, you
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know, I politely kind of close those and say, you know, I just don't think this is really
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a good way for us to proceed, you know, which is I think is totally okay, you know, and
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really doesn't, I don't think that that should be offensive or anything.
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I think that there's, you know, hundreds of millions of people in the world and we're
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not going to get along or work well with all of them.
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I mean, it's just that's that's that's right, you know, so how can one person be expected
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to, you know, fit the mold or the needs of all these different people, right?
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I kind of run my business a certain way and there's a lot of people that like that and
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I choose to work with those people.
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Those who wouldn't, you know, I think it's just fair that we don't, you know, and we identify
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those situations typically through in a transaction or two and seeing something maybe isn't right
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and having a conversation.
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If that conversation results in, hey, I get it, I love it, let's do it, then great, we do it,
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you know, by the if it's head, I kind of disagree and I need it this way and when I say jump,
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I need you to say how high and all that, then, you know, we just typically don't, don't move
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any further forward with those.
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Yeah, and so when you say things to me like, you know, realtors get it, a bunch of different
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things come to mind, but one of them is, you know, like I talked a while back and interviewed
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somebody and tried to position, you know, you and I, I think I have gone to similar schools of
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thought or training and coaching, you know, Todd Duncan being one of them, which is the whole
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high trust sales and partnering to use those words as you, you know, as you've described.
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And I always liked to make my number one value proposition, right? Like you said, my process,
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the value, a referable experience, right? Which is what I'm trying to create.
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Do you, a couple of questions in here, I guess number one, do you think that's valid?
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Do you have realtors who say, you know what, dude, that's just table stakes,
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you should have that great of an experience? Because what I'm leading up to is, you know,
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the realtors back to your original statement of agents who get it, does that mean you don't get
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sucked into the vortex of, hey man, you know, play the play, Zelo leads. So I know I threw a lot
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at you there, but how do you respond to kind of that? Yeah, I mean, that, that, I don't participate
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in that in the Zelo lead. And that's partly because I don't believe in Zelo really. It's not so much
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that I don't believe in, and maybe sponsoring or investing in something that, you know, could be
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mutually beneficial for both a real turn alone officer. So there are lots of things I'm more
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than happy or invest in to Zelo is not really one of them. I think by the way, any any particular reason,
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oh, absolutely, Zelo is not my model. I mean, Zelo is not a value ad type of place.
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I mean, you go to Zelo to do one thing and one thing only, and that is take, take, take,
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and really, and you, I mean, what do you go to Zelo for? I mean, I go to Zelo every single day,
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I've never, I don't pay them, you know, so I'm going there and just getting information
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because they've got information. And then I take that information and I use it the way I want to.
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So, you know, the generally the customer is that come off of Zelo where they're,
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where they're really heavily, you know, reliant on Zelo for sort of everything,
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that's just not my customer. They're not going to see the value that I have, right? They're,
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they're looking for cheapest and they're talking to a million people all at once and they're fine
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with burning people's time and not really ever proceeding with anything. So, you know, it's just not
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really, yeah, the sort of model match that I be. Do you, do you have reviews on Zelo? Absolutely.
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Okay, that's interesting. I'm going to, I'm going to, if I recall, you've got a pretty significant
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amount, don't you? Absolutely. So, Zelo, then in that context, provide some kind of value for you
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there. Absolutely. As I said, I mean, I like, like many other people, I'm benefiting from Zelo.
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Okay. But you just said it's not your model. Right. The model to go advertise on Zelo?
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Okay. Try to get leads from Zelo's platform is, you know, it's 10%. You know, it's one out of,
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one out of 10 that convert, right? Zelo, for me, the reviews being on Zelo there are,
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those reviews are speaking to the clients that I'm, that I am working with, right? Because they're
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googling and they're finding that stuff. They're not, they're not entering their data into Zelo
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and saying, hey, find me a house, find me a realtor, find me a lender, you know.
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Yeah, anyways. Well, my clients are, well, people are, people are, yeah, but your clients are,
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so help me understand that when you say your clients are, are you telling me your clients aren't
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going to Zelo in searching? I mean, they absolutely are. What I'm saying is they're not going into
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Zelo putting in their private information and saying, have some random person call me.
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Hmm, they're not doing that. Even in the case of finding a real estate agent.
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The clients that I'm working with are not finding realtors from Zelo.
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Correct. How are they finding them, do you know?
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Yeah, through the same sort of networks that I mentioned that I derived my business from,
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so trust the people that they know. So like from very, very, very rare that I work with someone
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who found their realtor on Zelo. Is that all right? And obviously you know this because you've
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probably had some dialogue with them that reveals. Absolutely. Yeah, I, yeah, absolutely.
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Interesting. All right, so let's get back to your mind. I'm just trying to like multitask your
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look at your reviews online because I guess let me ask you this. Have you ever had somebody
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when you ask them, you know, why did you choose me? What do you usually hear back?
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If I ask them, why do they choose me? Yeah. I don't really ask that, but I get, I guess I get
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the answer through different ways, but not by asking why you chose me. Typically it's, you know,
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you were highly recommended by so-and-so who had a good experience, right? That's usually one
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big factor. And you know, the sort of value of that individual who referred, right? So like I
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got an email right before I called you or dialed into this meeting where someone said, you know,
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I know and work with so-and-so as a co-worker and I really trust them and know that they're good
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stuff. So they said to call you so I'm calling you. You know, I get that a lot. Yeah, I would say
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that's the most common sort of response. You're usually coming, coming to people are coming to you
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by way of a trusted source. They are. And then what they do, I believe in many cases, is they
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Google me, right? Then they're going to look at your reviews and all that stuff. And now the
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reviews are supplemental to what they've already been told. So one guy said, you're great. Then I
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went online and everyone said you're great. So I'm here. Yeah. Interesting. But they're not going
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to sell in entering their information and having, you know, 180 lenders call them in the next,
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you know, three, for the next three weeks until time, you know. Yeah, yeah, that's a wonderful
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process, too. I'm curious then what we're on this thread. Then what is your take on the whole,
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this is kind of very relevant for me lately. You know, the discussion around digital disruption,
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you know, obviously, Zilla, now mortgage companies and the competition for attention for consumers.
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Where's your thought pattern around that? Do you have any concerns or does that mean you're
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adjusting your model in any way? No, and not really. And I, you know, I suppose we'll all find out,
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right? But, you know, if you look at someone like Quicken, right, who is, you know,
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from a marketing perspective, brilliant, from a call center perspective has executed better than
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any other, really. And who ranks number one in terms of loan volume nationally? I don't consider
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them a disruption to me at all. You know, are they getting a good, good stake of the, a good share
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of the pie? Absolutely. Sure. But you're doing fine with them in the market. Yeah, right. And really,
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you know, selling someone the other day, it's like, you go to the store and you look at milk.
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Okay. And how many options do you have now at this point? Right, with milk.
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So you've got, you know, all different types of milk and different options, right? And,
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you know, the regular milk guys, they're still there, some of milk, you know, but there's a market
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for them, right? And, and I think that, you know, our industry is, is similar. There is room for
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different models to operate. Some people are going to go and push button and get mortgage
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with a rocket from a guy that, you know, doesn't shave yet, who's in a call center in Ohio.
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Some people are going to do that and they're going to be good with it, right? And that's just,
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and they're, and that's fine. And that works for them. And then there's the other person that
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really wants to come in. I mean, I have, I have clients on a regular basis who say, you know,
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I'd love to talk with you about this over the phone, but I'm really more of a face-to-face person.
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When can I come in? So, I mean, there's people, not everybody wants to do that. I get that. I'm not
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trying to help everybody, right? So I believe that there will be, you know, room for Zelo to do
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its thing. There will be room for me to do, to do mine and quick in and all of us to operate in
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this marketplace and share in that business, you know? So I don't, I don't view Zelo as a, as a
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threat. And in fact, as you pointed out to some degree, I benefit from that. Yeah, yeah. And,
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and my model is such that, you know, it may not have value if there isn't someone else doing it
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differently, right? So they, you know, they kind of make me look good in some cases, right?
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Yeah, that's a good point, actually. I mean, that's why we have all the choices we do in
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milk or, you know, mortgage progressions, whatever. That's right. Yeah. What, then I'm, I guess,
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last question on this thread, then we'll jump into the financial planner model you have.
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Knowing that you've got what, a largely, if I will, correct me if I'm wrong, what I will kind
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of articulate as a largely referral based business, right? From trusted relationships and referral
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partners you've built up. I mean, Zelo, our conversation about Zelo with your reviews and stuff
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like that is a little bit plain to this, but I'm just curious for you in general.
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Are you consciously, you know, trying to personally, personally, brand you, Cory, right? Your name
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and face are, you know, I mean, are you cognizant of that and trying to create those connection
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intersection points with your, you know, potential marketplace?
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Yeah, but more with people that, you know, we're, we're sort of warm with already.
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You know, so I, we spend a good amount of energy marketing to people we know and that like us and
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that we like and we put a lot of energy there and our resources there. I don't have banner ads. I
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don't have print ads that we're mailing to farm lists in certain areas.
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You're not doing a lot of like social video and that kind of stuff. We do some. Yeah, we do some.
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And then, you know, when we boost that to stuff that's close to us, you know, not geographically
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close, but like close, you know, because that's who I think I'm going to have the greatest amount
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of influence with and yeah, that's really, that's really why. So, you know, we, we probably market
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more than your average loan officer, you know, we do multiple mailings every, you know, we're
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probably doing eight mailings a year, half of which have some sort of giveaway in them and those
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mailings are going to thousands of people. These are people that we know and that we've worked with.
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These are direct mail. It is direct mail, but I mean, it's direct mail again to people that we know.
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Yeah, right, right. Just to make sure it was like a hard copy of mail, not email. Yeah, no, no,
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mail, hard mail. Yep. Yep. Yep. And, you know, phone calls for a year personal phone calls to
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every past customer to check in on things and also we always have sort of a reason for calling.
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So, every time there's a, there's a reason we don't just call and say, hey, how are you with your
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loan and, you know, because you know, at some point it's like, I don't, you know, you can stop calling,
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right? But all with some reason to call. Right. There's a bunch of things that we do, but we put a lot
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of resources and a lot of energy into marketing to those we are already tight with, already close with.
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Well, it's funny because I was kind of read a quote the other day that talking about like, you know,
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your future clients and things like that and that don't overlook the primary, most likely source
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of your future business and that is within your CRM. That's right. And I don't know if that was
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for me or from someone else, but when I'm speaking with loan officers, I, you know, I'm in realtors too.
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I'm oftentimes just sort of confused as to why people want to go into these new directions all
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the time when they're not covering their own bases at home. You know, so I hear things like, I want
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to do a Facebook seminar and we're going to send a farm list and we're going to have a title
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company and we're going to try and get us people and and that's great, you know, and go and speak
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in front of a group and hopefully pick up some new customers. That's awesome. But to me, that is,
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that is phase two. You do that after you are absolutely crushing it with those people that
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already know you, that already like you, that already do business with you. And if you're not
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doing everything you can in that department, then I don't see any reason to skip that and go out
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to a bunch of cold people that you don't know and try and convince them of things that the people
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you know already know, right? But that is a, which again is why I don't go to Zilla. I'd rather
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put my energy into people that I know and, you know, don't convince. Yeah, for sure. All right,
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let's transition a little bit for a second time into one of the main kind of focuses of your
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business model. I wrote this down last time. We talked because I love the talk crack on this.
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So I guess we're going to get into some scripting here, perhaps. But I love you took me through
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last time kind of the conversation and dialogue you have when taking a 10 or three with people
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that opens up opportunities, you know, for access to CPAs, for example, right, tax planners.
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Right. You remember that conversation? You're like, yes, I've said it a thousand times.
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Yeah. So are you still taking apps yourself before we get into kind of give me what your
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process is there? Yeah, I take 99% of the apps that we fund myself. And I do them by phone
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and it's old school. And you know, I get people sometimes who ask me about an online app and I
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explain why that's not going to be a great option. I don't ever get any pushback on that. The
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only time we do online apps is if our borrower is in China or something like that. And even then,
24:18
I try not to do it. I try to do it this way, you know, with adjusting for a time change and get
24:24
together this way. I feel like that's a very critical part of the process. And to start off
24:33
electronically, you know, I don't think is it. I think you can do most of the loan process
24:37
electronically and be pretty efficient and everything. But I think that first initial meeting
24:42
and application should be either face to face or over the phone done by the loan officer.
24:48
You know, and so that's that's what I do. Did you say at some point in the process though,
24:52
you're also having Zoom conversations? Absolutely. So yeah, like I said, like this, like Zoom,
24:58
we do Zoom meetings if the client is open to it. I would say, I don't know, maybe 25,
25:05
30% of our loan applications are actually via Zoom just like this. You know, so that we can
25:11
you know, see each other. And I don't know, it just, I mean, I'm here. I am in my office, right? It's
25:16
I'm not in a garage. I'm not at this Starbucks, you know, talking about your private information
25:20
with my friends around, you know, it's just it goes a long way for people to see you to know,
25:26
to know that you're in a professional working environment and everything.
25:29
Well, you know this. It's like it's like the acceleration of trust face to face. You can read
25:33
facial language body, you know, all that kind of stuff. You're going to get the trust is going
25:37
to be much higher if you can actually see the person. That's right. I think that makes a lot of
25:40
sense. Take me through if you could just, you know, high level overview of I love that conversation
25:44
you have before about when you're walking people through the loan app and you're asking the
25:48
questions about, you know, their financial advisor situation, whatever and how you pivot that into
25:52
building your, you know, business model. Sure. Well, so there's a little bit of detail here. But,
25:58
you know, I find that again, there's a lot of value in getting to know who your clients know
26:04
or who your referral sources know. You know, it's that whole seven, you know, degrees of separation
26:09
thing where you can find more opportunity within probably that discussion that you're having
26:15
with that customer and probably better to spend your time doing that than to go start a new campaign
26:20
to find new people that you don't even know. So what we'll do is when we're talking to a customer
26:27
about a potential loan is an effort to sort of make the process easier for them. And frankly,
26:31
easier for us to some degree is we'll find out who their sort of key partners are or advisors
26:40
are really right. So we're going to ask them about a financial advisor. We're going to ask them
26:44
about a CPA. We're going to ask them about a realtor. We're going to ask them about insurance.
26:50
And we're going to ask them about their trust. Okay. Because these are all things that are,
26:55
we're probably going to have to deal with at some point during the loan process.
26:59
But beyond that, there is also opportunity for me to help them. So if I know who their CPA is,
27:06
I can call their CPA and get their tax returns. That helps the customer. But it also opens up
27:12
that dialogue between me and the CPA where maybe we talk about anything that we need during
27:19
the loan process, but also maybe the potential for future business or just benefiting that particular
27:25
customer down the road. So for example, we send out closing statements to the CPA after
27:30
closing. It's, you know, we do it on every single loan. And they're oftentimes just like,
27:34
oh, wow, you have baffled by why we're, you know, doing that or why no one else is doing that,
27:39
I guess, maybe more than anything. But we make friends that way, right? And so we,
27:44
and we help our customer because we make the process easier. Now, some clients don't have CPAs.
27:49
In which case, I've got a CPA that I can connect them with if that's something that they're
27:53
interested in, right? So, and we go down the line with, with, you know, financial planners and,
28:01
and real estate agents and insurance agents and things like that. Yeah, well, I want to get
28:06
specific here for a moment for those listening because I'm a big believer in, you know, like this,
28:11
where's this book right here? Just got this from Chris Smith, exactly what to say when to say it,
28:15
because the worst thing, worst time to figure out what to say is in the moment you need to say it.
28:20
So, you have this wonderful kind of transition where you're asking people about, you know,
28:24
their tax plan or CPA, whatever. And if they say they don't have one, that's the opportunity that
28:29
you kind of engage in and offer up you to refer one to them, right? Absolutely. Yeah. And it allows
28:35
me to feed back the, the trusted, you know, partners that we are working with that are oftentimes
28:41
referring us as well. Yeah, how often do you find that people take you up on that? Very often. In
28:48
fact, you know, over, you know, I've really kind of built my business so that I'm somewhat of a
28:53
gatekeeper, I suppose. And, you know, we, we get people who are requesting information like that,
28:58
you know, months after closing, you know, coming to us and saying, Hey, who would you advise as a
29:02
trust attorney or a financial advisor, which is really speaks volumes about, you know, how,
29:07
again, how we're conducting our business because people trust us to the degree that they would not
29:11
only ask us about a mortgage, but also ask us about something else important. That is, uh, you
29:16
know, in relation to their finances. So, yeah, it's very, it's very common. And when you offer,
29:22
I mean, when I've probably done that a few times today, when you offer that information, people
29:27
really, you know, are appreciative of having a good connection and a solid referral, right?
29:35
Oh, yeah. Yeah. And then on the flip side, financial advisors, yeah.
29:39
Yeah. And on the flip side, what you're doing is also leveraging if they do have a CPA themselves,
29:43
then you're kind of alluded to this a moment ago, but offering, you know, you basically say
29:48
something that, you know, would you mind if I, you know, connect with them and introduce myself
29:51
because we're going to be working through the transaction and it's a matter of fact, it'll help
29:54
it go smoother for you. That's right. Yeah. I mean, because, you know, how many times is a loan
29:59
officer do you ask a customer for tax returns and they send you half of the tax return at the cover
30:04
page? And that's frustrating for the customer, right? I mean, you're expecting them to understand it,
30:09
know it and send it and review it and all that. And so it's like, why don't I just take this off
30:13
your hands? You know, you're, you're self-employed, you're going to have a K1, you're going to have
30:17
an LLC, you're going to have these things. Why don't I just go and get everything I need directly
30:20
from the financial advisor or from the CPA? Right. Would that make it easier for you? And,
30:25
yeah, most of the time they say, absolutely. Sometimes they say, you know, my CPA is going to charge
30:30
me to send these things to you or whatever. So in some cases, we actually don't do that, but we
30:35
always make it an option for the customer. And then at some point, but perhaps if you're talking
30:39
about that CPA, you try and go for a meeting? Sure. I mean, if, if our customer who was referred by
30:48
someone else that we know and trust, right, we've got this chain, you know, if our customer says
30:53
this CPA is fantastic, well, then I kind of want to know that CPA. The same way that financial advisor
30:59
might have referred me. And so this mortgage guy's amazing, you know, I like to, you know, not only run
31:04
my business that way, but I operate that way in my personal life, right? So, you know, if I'm
31:09
going to call a dentist, I'm going to ask, you know, someone, maybe who goes to them or someone
31:13
that I know, who do you go to? So, yeah, I mean, we, we find that to be a really good way to meet new
31:20
people that could actually be of service to our customers down the road. Interesting. And,
31:28
of this CPA is, you know, financial people that you work with, I know it's hard for you to answer,
31:34
but I got to kind of go for details. Can you assess or give a rough estimate of the percentage
31:40
that you work with that came from that process right there? Yeah, it's not a huge percentage.
31:45
I would say it's, you know, maybe it's 10%, or something like that. So, when we, when we,
31:51
most of this is a customer benefit, you know, calling the CPA and having that, you know,
31:57
discussion with them and getting the tax returns directly from them, you know, a lot of times that's
32:02
where that ends. And that's partly due to probably our lack of maybe persistence or follow-up
32:08
or interest. And maybe partly because, you know, look, they're busy and they're just trying to
32:13
get you what you need, you know, and that's okay. I mean, we're not, again, we're not trying to work
32:19
with everybody, you know, we're looking for really great fit. So, this is not a shotgun thing
32:24
where we say, okay, well, we want to get a hundred CPAs in our database. We're really looking for
32:28
good ones. We don't want to refer people who aren't great, you know, so we sort of see if there's
32:33
a synergy with them, you know, and then if there is, then we maybe try to do a meeting and see where
32:39
that goes and yeah. And roughly, again, you know, how many CPAs would you say are in your short list?
32:47
Oh, probably 15. 15, yeah. And that that's probably sustained you quite a bit then those 15.
32:54
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And there's way more financial advisors. I mean, CPAs are, it's really
32:59
hard to find, you know, not only good CPAs that CPAs that are going to be working. Yeah, exactly,
33:05
right. They're unique individuals. Yeah, right. In the cases. That's very cool. Okay, great.
33:10
That's good strategy. What is your process? I don't know if it's similar to you because you've got
33:15
kind of a mature business, you know, your core base of real estate agents. Are you
33:22
in proactive recruiting mode for real estate agents?
33:29
I don't know, probably not as much as some loan officers are. Yeah, I mean, again, I'm really all
33:35
about good fit. I mean, I look at that first before production, all of that. I mean, we work with
33:41
some very, very good realtors that don't produce at a high level because they don't really necessarily
33:45
want to, but they're great to work with. And then we work with some others that produce an
33:49
extremely high level. And they're, and they're also great to work with. That's the common denominator
33:53
is, you know, them understanding the value out that we provide. And, and that there's a good
33:58
synergy and that we can complement each other well. So I'm kind of always looking for that
34:03
opportunity where there's a good synergy and there's a good, yeah, just kind of common way of
34:08
doing business. And then if there is, then we kind of go and try to sort of secure a relationship
34:15
with those people. But you know, that's one in five. It's, yeah, it's not like we're going after
34:19
everybody. Right, right. And then I guess lastly here, just in terms of kind of overall sources
34:25
of business, you are licensed in 25 states, is that right? Yeah. So that's, that's been huge
34:30
for for me as well is just diversifying, you know. And so yeah, I'm personally licensed in 25
34:37
states or companies licensed in 50. So really I can get loans done anywhere and I do. I get loans
34:42
in every single state. We get them done. I don't only do the ones I'm licensed in because we've
34:47
got other people in the office or licensed in other states. And it's very rare that we get,
34:51
you know, Kentucky's like the one that we really don't have a lot of coverage or answers for. But
34:57
yeah, so that's been huge. You know, financial advisors, realtors, clients, past clients,
35:04
you know, they know that we're licensed all over. And they've got, I mean, everyone knows
35:09
someone who's retiring, buying a vacation home, buying a rental, getting transferred for work,
35:15
military, all that, right? It's very common. And to just say, hey, sorry, you can't help you
35:21
because you're out of, because I don't want to do the work to get licensed or I don't want to
35:23
spend the money to get licensed is an oversight in my opinion. So I just started by getting
35:29
licensed in a few states where it was really common. That I would get requests like in Arizona,
35:37
Nevada, you know, Colorado. Yeah, Colorado is another one where it's like, you know,
35:42
like a reciprocal sort of state. And out of those, and then before you know, it's like,
35:47
hey, can you do a loan in Texas now? Can you do a loan in Florida, right? So just as I had
35:51
demand, even just a little bit, I would add the state. I mean, now I'm active in, you know,
35:57
in Virginia and Florida, New Hampshire or Connecticut and Texas. And it's funny, but,
36:03
you know, once you have that, the license, you know, you'll find there is a need, you know,
36:09
and we market that. So I mean, I really am marketing constantly, you know, that I'm your local
36:14
national mortgage lender. And on the national business piece, you know, it's, you know, I really
36:21
get to add value even more there because, you know, let's just say that you live in San Diego and
36:25
you're moving to Florida. That's a, that's a new place for you, right? A lot of new there, right?
36:30
You've got a new realtor, you know, someone through someone else said something about them. And so,
36:35
you know, you, you maybe contacted them, but it's a new area. It's a new school. There's all this
36:41
new stuff, right? And, and so if I can be your mortgage person when you're moving somewhere new,
36:48
it's just that little bit of comfort now that you have. And all of a sudden, it's like, great,
36:53
I'd love to work with you. And I don't want to go into the unknown, right? So, yeah, I found
36:58
that to be a big, big advantage for us. What percentage of your business is from out of state,
37:04
out of California? Well, it's not from out of state, but it's done out of state. Sorry, sorry. Yeah,
37:10
this would be clear. Yeah. We do about 10, I do about 10 units a month out of state. So it's probably,
37:16
I don't know, you know, 15, 20% 10 units a month out of state. Wow, that's really good. Yeah,
37:25
yeah, it's, it's a lot. And it's probably, and it may even be more. I mean, we're constantly doing
37:29
loads of other states. Yeah. And most of that is because of prior relationships, like you said,
37:35
people, yeah, no one's calling us from Florida saying, I hear you guys are great. I shouldn't say
37:40
that because as we're talking, I just got a call from a Arizona realtor who left a message with
37:45
my assistant saying that they've got an Arizona client that wants help. And so it does happen,
37:50
but it's not, it's not as common, you know, and certainly as we get into different time zones,
37:54
it becomes less common. So yeah, we don't really get people calling us from Florida saying, hey,
38:00
I heard you were great, you know, it happens, but not a lot. What are your plans for next year,
38:06
2020? Do you have growth plans? Do you want to do additional volume and units?
38:11
Yeah, so I don't know, additional volume and units, I'll do about 225 million this year in
38:18
in personal volume. And I, you know, I don't know that we'll do more than that next year,
38:23
probably not. If, you know, somewhat dependent on rates, I suppose, but yeah, we do have plans to
38:30
grow the team. So in fact, we just took on some more space and the construction is being done,
38:37
as we speak, it'll be done in about two weeks. So we are adding a few people, both on the sales
38:42
and operations side. So that should be good. What's the goal, by the way, not to interrupt,
38:49
but what's the goal with the people? What kind of roles are they going to play?
38:51
Yeah, a couple of loan officers and a couple of ops people. So one processor, another closer,
38:58
I have an in-house closer, which is really a big advantage as well, but we'll add another one.
39:04
Another sales assistant and a few loan officers. And, you know, when I'm looking at these
39:08
positions, is the same thing as I'm looking at real-terge or financial advisors. It's all about the
39:12
fit. It's not about the production. It's not about anything else. It's all about the fit.
39:16
Right. I don't, we don't have turnover here. You know, if we don't have loan officers leaving,
39:23
we have people who are really happy and really like the process and what we do and not, and
39:28
all play well together. And that's what I'm looking for. So I'm not looking for the biggest producer
39:32
just because we want someone that really sees the value in what we do and will work well with it.
39:38
You know, and that's what we've got. We've got a great group of people that all work well together,
39:41
that all see the value in what we do and how we do it. And, you know, no big egos or attitudes
39:48
or anything like that. It's really very special. What aspect of this business is most enjoyable for you?
39:55
Talking to customers, advising them, you know, I just had this 10 minute call today.
40:01
It was supposed to be 10 minute call that turned into about an hour call and there was no loan to
40:04
get out of it. But, but just advising, right? I really, really like that. I like being able to
40:11
teach people things. That's why I manage an office. You know, I'm often asked, why do you manage
40:16
a group of loan officers when you're doing 225 million of personal production? And it's, it's the,
40:23
in Amara, I guess I have with teaching and showing and, you know, why am I doing this podcast?
40:28
Same thing. You know, I mean, I enjoy that. I enjoy sharing what I've learned. And, you know,
40:34
when I was new in this business, I was, I was, inevitably, you know, obsessed with to a scary
40:40
level with Tim Breen. And, you know, I watched him and everything that he, he did in his videos and
40:47
at the time was kind of low tech. But what, the time was high tech for that, for that now, if you
40:51
consider low tech. But I learned a ton. And I spent my Friday and Saturday nights watching him and
40:56
talking in front of the mirror. And I mean, you know, all that stuff, practicing the scripts in
41:02
the lines. Yes. Yeah. And, and, and, and how to separate, you know, yourself and, and all of that.
41:09
Yeah. So, you know, I feel like to some small degree, I may be giving back by doing some of the
41:14
teaching and things like that. Yeah, man. You're paying it forward. And it's funny. It's a very
41:18
similar path because Tim was one of my kind of early mentors from afar. Had the chance since then
41:23
to meet him. And of course, he's been on the podcast. I think a year ago, but yeah, I always
41:27
love Tim's style as an approach. Very different, different kind of vibe, different, you know, style and
41:33
talk track. And definitely, I think, higher level, you know. What do you do in terms of like, do you
41:40
do anything that, you know, so I know this, what you enjoy most about the businesses, the, the
41:44
education and, and the advising. Do you have fun in this business meaning incorporate, like,
41:51
socially related activities, community events or happy hours and things like that? Yeah, I don't
41:55
really do much of that. Yeah. So I'm not out there rubbing shoulders or elbows, as I say, with a
42:01
lot of either people in the business or, or, or, or even outside that could be potential referral
42:07
source, you know, I, I spend a great deal of time working on my business and working with my team.
42:13
And, you know, that accounts for the majority of my, of my, of my waking hours. And then, you know,
42:19
and then it's family after that ship. I'm not super active out in any big groups or anything like
42:24
that. Well, I guess let me close it out with this thought then be back to the mentorship thing.
42:29
You know, Tim Brahim was the guy for you early on. Who or, you know, what are your resources today
42:34
for learning or growth? I don't know if it's a particular coach, if it's a book or something like
42:38
that or a person. Yeah, you know, for me, it's, it's, it's business owners that are successful in
42:44
what they do. It doesn't have to be in the mortgage business. I kind of feel like the mortgage
42:48
business, I don't claim to know everything, but I feel like I've got a good grasp on that.
42:53
And I find a lot of interest in learning about business in general and how people do things and
42:57
how they acquire customers and how they retain and how they provide service and stand out and
43:03
separate. And so, you know, I've got friends and family members that are business owners and
43:07
successful in what they do. And so I oftentimes look to them. I do have a coach. And, you know,
43:16
I am a huge Todd Duncan fan, although he's not my coach. I'm a huge fan of what he does. And by
43:21
the way, a lot of what he does, I do as well. And we're very similar. And some degree, that's why,
43:26
you know, I coach with some other people just to get different perspectives, right?
43:32
But yeah, those are the people, you know, that I love to. Are you coaching with a mortgage-specific
43:37
coach or more of a business coach? Yeah, no, it's a mortgage coach. Yeah. Got it. Very cool.
43:42
Awesome, man. Cool. Well, listen, I know you're very busy. So I appreciate you making the time and
43:48
just jump it on here and share in some of, you know, your strategies for success, your mindset and
43:52
all that kind of stuff and your business plan and process. And what I love about you, what's
43:56
refreshing, and, you know, you might not be exposed to this as much as I am, but, you know,
44:01
there's a lot of noise in the industry about, you know, doing business a certain way. And like,
44:04
that's why I asked you the questions related to like online and social media and stuff. Yeah.
44:09
And I love it. It's a little bit kind of the alternate, you know, the opposite answer where it's like,
44:14
you know, do business the way that you enjoy doing business. And that's how you're probably going
44:18
to succeed. Yeah, I mean, I tell my kids all the time, you know, be you, right? And so, you know,
44:24
why do I not go to these big community functions and make a big, make that a big part of my business?
44:29
It's just not really me. I just certainly do some of it, but it's just not really me. Why,
44:33
why not, you know, make a big, big presence on Zillow and things? It's just not really me, you
44:38
know? And so while it may be a decent way to get business, it's just not for me, you know? And so,
44:45
it took a long time, but I really, you know, built a business that runs the way naturally I would want
44:52
to be treated as a customer and how I would operate as a customer. If I was going to buy a home or
44:58
do something real major like that, I would not put it in the hands of the call center guy quick
45:04
in. Some people will, and that's, and that's okay, but that I wouldn't do business that way.
45:09
And so I run my business the way I would want to be treated as a customer if I was the
45:15
customer in that business. And I'm a tough customer. So I feel like, you know, I run it well, but,
45:21
you know, you can't, you know, go online and get a rate quote with me and get your mortgage
45:27
with the push button thing, you know? So it's not for everybody and I'm good with that.
45:32
Awesome, man. Well, if anybody wants to kind of reach out to you or whatever, where do you suggest
45:36
that they go? Should I put links in the show notes? Do you want them to go to your Facebook page,
45:39
your website? Sure. Yeah, go to the Facebook page. And if anyone uses Facebook anymore, I don't know.
45:46
True, but come on, man. Just a billion people a day. That's all. Okay. All right. Well,
45:51
yeah. So that's a, that's a great place and you can message me there or whatever. Yeah.
45:55
Awesome. All right. Well, listen, again, appreciate you being here and as always listeners,
45:58
we appreciate you tuning in and you're going to do if you like this episode or any of the episodes.
46:02
Hey, leave us a little reviews out on the socials. We appreciate you and we'll see you on the next one.
46:21
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