Latest / Inner Work With MaryAnn Walker: Life Coach for People Pleasers / 157: The Emotionally Healthy Man: How to Feel Without Shame with Chris O'Neil

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157: The Emotionally Healthy Man: How to Feel Without Shame with Chris O'Neil · Inner Work With MaryAnn Walker: Life Coach for People Pleasers

• 0:20
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: well, hello and welcome back.
• 0:22
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: I am so excited for today.
• 0:24
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Today I have Chris O'Neill on the show.
• 0:26
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Chris is an emotions coach for men and fathers.
• 0:29
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: I have absolutely loved all of the content that he has been putting out into the world, and so I wanted to have him on here today to kind of explore some of the challenges that specifically men face around emotional expression, emotional processing.
• 0:43
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Kind of help us to break down a few harmful stereotypes and also just help my listeners to find some practical tools for emotional regulation and personal growth.
• 0:51
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: So this episode is designed for men on their own personal healing journeys and also.
• 0:57
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: For those who love men and want to be able to better understand them and better support them on their journey.
• 1:02
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: So thank you so much for being here, Chris.
• 1:04
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Absolutely.
• 1:05
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Very, very happy to be here.
• 1:07
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And I, I really appreciated you reaching out when you did.
• 1:10
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: we've been mutuals for a while now on social media and, I've stitched some of your stuff.
• 1:15
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You've some of mine.
• 1:17
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And, I loved the, the kind of at a distant interactions we've had.
• 1:22
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So, when you reached out I was, I was happy to hear it, so,
• 1:25
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 1:26
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: It's so fun to meet face to face and when we had all of that scare around if TikTok was
• 1:30
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: yeah.
• 1:31
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: or not,
• 1:31
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah.
• 1:32
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: are one of the few creators that I was like, I need to find him on another platform because
• 1:36
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Oh, thanks.
• 1:36
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: do if I can't follow his feed?
• 1:38
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: So yeah, I,
• 1:40
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: That's great.
• 1:40
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I appreciate that.
• 1:41
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: out.
• 1:41
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah, for sure.
• 1:43
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: So, tells Chris, what led you to becoming an emotion coach for men and fathers?
• 1:48
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Okay, let's see if I can whittle this down from the, uh, you know, 20 plus years of, of, uh, journey that I've been on.
• 1:56
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, I, I could go earlier.
• 1:59
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I'll just acknowledge the fact that I came from an authoritarian upbringing, um, you know, and had issues with my own awareness of my emotion and, and emotional regulation and all of that.
• 2:09
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Uh, but really it started when I got into, uh, massage therapy.
• 2:14
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, I, I had been in the restaurant industry for a long time and it was, you know, in the weeds crash and burn.
• 2:21
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Go, go, go, go.
• 2:22
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And I just, I, I wanted to shift, I wanted to move into something a little more.
• 2:27
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Focused, quiet, you know, calm.
• 2:31
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And I really fell in love with, uh, body work.
• 2:33
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: 'cause my mother was a, a massage therapist, so went to school.
• 2:37
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I've been doing that for 16 plus years.
• 2:39
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I really dug into, um, uh, a technique I created called BCT Body Communication Therapy.
• 2:46
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And in doing that, I really became super aware of the difference between so many men and so many women having different clients over the years of how connected people were to their bodies.
• 2:59
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, and just in general, the, obviously it's, it's not it, each individual is different, but the vast majority of the male clients that I had had far.
• 3:10
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Bigger issues, connecting their emotions, their psychology and their physiology, and understanding those connections and what to do about them.
• 3:18
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It was just like, it hurts here.
• 3:20
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And I don't know why, you know, they could identify things, but they couldn't follow the through line of where it came from and how it worked.
• 3:26
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And there are plenty of women who couldn't do that either.
• 3:29
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: But in general, women tended to be more aware of those through lines and could connect them easier.
• 3:36
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So when I would say, oh, this area of your body feels a certain way, she's like, oh yeah, because this happened and then I connected this and da, da, da, da, da.
• 3:44
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Whereas the guy was just like, yeah, it hurts.
• 3:47
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It's been hurting for a couple weeks.
• 3:48
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Well, what'd you do?
• 3:48
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I don't know.
• 3:49
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I lifted something.
• 3:49
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I don't know.
• 3:50
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You know, it, it, it was just a very.
• 3:53
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: This is what's happening.
• 3:54
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So I'd like this to happen.
• 3:56
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, I came to you for this.
• 3:58
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So, and you know, they, they weren't horrible about it, but it was just, you are the practitioner, so tell me what I need to do.
• 4:04
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 4:04
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And that lack of awareness of navigating it on their own, at least to the point that they don't understand, so then I can step in and help.
• 4:12
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Right.
• 4:12
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: the body communication therapy was literally an real, a real time investigation of what was happening, how that was connecting to their emotional state, psychology state and all of that.
• 4:25
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And they were able to then have a better skill identifying certain things so that they could communicate to other therapists and, and get more proper healing.
• 4:35
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, that, uh, led me to, well it didn't lead me to becoming a father, but I became a father in, um, 2018 and I.
• 4:48
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: This was the beginning of, of a lot of dominoes for me.
• 4:51
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I kind of had just these really big moments.
• 4:55
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I became a father.
• 4:57
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, my, uh, my sister died and, uh, I can go into detail, uh, about that, but it was a really big, obviously emotional experience for me.
• 5:08
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, then I turned 40, then the pandemic happened, then I lost my massage business.
• 5:15
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So it was just like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, these things.
• 5:19
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And I thought I had a reasonably good handle on my emotions'cause I was so aware of things,
• 5:25
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 5:25
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: just stuck in my head like so many, like so many guys.
• 5:28
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And this is unfortunately, uh, a big thing.
• 5:31
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Obviously we'll get to.
• 5:34
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I figured it out.
• 5:35
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I have this knowledge now so I understand.
• 5:38
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Cool.
• 5:38
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And then we just move on.
• 5:39
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: No, no, no, no, no.
• 5:40
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Now you gotta do the work to change that thing, you know?
• 5:44
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So I was in that category where I was like, no, I get it.
• 5:46
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I, I'm aware of this now, so it's fine.
• 5:49
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, and then when my sister died, that just wave of emotion that I had never, never knew I hadn't dealt with,
• 5:56
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 5:57
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: exploded all over everything.
• 5:58
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: My family interactions, my extended family interactions and all of that.
• 6:02
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So, uh, losing my massage business'cause I couldn't see clients for a year.
• 6:06
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: During the pandemic,
• 6:07
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 6:08
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I decided to pivot and I was originally gonna do body awareness coaching and I thought that would be something, self massage, that type of stuff.
• 6:15
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, but then when my sister died and, and combined with the pandemic and just being stuck inside for so long and internal reflections and all that, and I realized all the stuff I was going through, so many other men needed that.
• 6:31
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: That awareness, that practice, all of that.
• 6:33
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Like, and I just, I was drawn to this idea of helping men to, basically the way I viewed is become whole people.
• 6:42
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 6:42
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: you're not becoming less of a man, you're just expanding your skillset to be a better human being.
• 6:48
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And by default, a better man, instead of being afraid and, you know, trying to pretend and avoid these things exist
• 6:57
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Hmm.
• 6:57
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: that's how men are supposed to be.
• 7:00
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: We are augmenting our skill and our ability to function in the world and in relationships and with our family so that we can be better for them and ourselves.
• 7:13
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And I realized that doing the work for me and, and meeting all of these other men through a lot, a lot on my TikTok page, I.
• 7:22
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 7:23
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Because that I, I was one of those, and I think this is true of most of us.
• 7:26
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Our, my audience came by accident.
• 7:28
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I didn't set out to have a big audience and you know, there are plenty of people with bigger ones, but, um, it just happened,
• 7:36
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 7:37
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: know, and I realized that I had some influence and what I was going through, so many other men are going through.
• 7:43
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Hmm.
• 7:44
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And I was like, I feel like I can help with this.
• 7:47
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So here we are.
• 7:49
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Well that, thank you so much for sharing all of that.
• 7:52
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: And, and I, it is obvious from the level of interaction on your page,
• 7:57
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Hmm.
• 7:57
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: the impact that you've had and how needed the conversations that you're starting, how, how needed those conversations are.
• 8:04
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: So I really appreciate you bringing your experience and your wisdom here.
• 8:07
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: You touched on a few things that I would love to just ask a little bit more about if you're open to it.
• 8:11
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Absolutely.
• 8:12
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Um, so first you said working as a massage therapist.
• 8:16
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: You talked about the difference between that, that the men kind of seem to struggle a little bit more with communicating what was happening in the body and, and making those connections.
• 8:25
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Um, and so where do you think that that stems from, and is that, is that.
• 8:29
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: that manifest, that disconnection from the body versus the disconnection from emotions?
• 8:35
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Uh, well, and that the, the interesting aspect to that question is there's a, there's connectivity there, right?
• 8:41
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Because emotions are in the body.
• 8:42
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So it, it's, I I feel like, and, and there are always exceptions of course, so there's gonna be a lot of generalization in, in a lot of these talking points, but I think they apply more than they don't.
• 8:54
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 8:55
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, where men are just kind of taught to steamroll past whatever their body's telling them
• 9:03
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Hmm.
• 9:04
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: in order to maintain and man up and step up, and all the sayings, right?
• 9:10
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Right.
• 9:11
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I'm hungry.
• 9:12
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Screw it.
• 9:13
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I gotta finish this job, right?
• 9:15
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Uh, I am thirsty, whatev, whatever the need of the body coming up, uh, I'm feeling overwhelmed.
• 9:21
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Can't admit that.
• 9:22
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: 'cause then I would have to acknowledge I can't handle, so I'm out of control, right?
• 9:26
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So there is this, uh, perpetual need to prove ourselves as men.
• 9:34
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 9:35
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: to just supersede all of these biological functioning things that come up.
• 9:41
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So years and years of that leads to just a, a lack of awareness of what certain things mean when they do come up.
• 9:53
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 9:53
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So it's like if you push past it and push past it and push past it and push past it, eventually it's gonna start yelling at you in a way that you can't push past.
• 10:02
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And then you don't have all of this knowledge, awareness, and skill that you would have built if you paid attention a while ago and now you're at this like crossroads where you have to do something about it, but you haven't practiced anything, you have no idea where to start, what to do, and it's all really overwhelming.
• 10:20
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 10:20
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: then you start the cycle all over again and push it back down, and then it just comes out in all these horrible ways,
• 10:26
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 10:26
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: you know?
• 10:27
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: to tie that together with your experience of grieving, not just, you know, the loss of your sister, but also the loss of your livelihood at that point and
• 10:35
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Mm-hmm.
• 10:35
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: you were doing.
• 10:38
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: how is it that grief manifests a lot of time for men?
• 10:40
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Like, I know that there, it seems to me, and you correct me on any of this, but that some emotions seem to be more allowed for men than
• 10:47
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Oh God, yes.
• 10:49
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: yeah, man up.
• 10:50
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: What is grief like, or what was it like for you?
• 10:54
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Well, certainly.
• 10:56
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, and it's so amazing how, um, one emotion bleeds into another, you know, and, and that's true of anger.
• 11:04
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And I, I will say that, um, even though anger can be a very good thing, it's a self-advocacy emotion, right?
• 11:10
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It, it helps you to stand up for yourself, but it, it's also a masking emotion and it tends to be the one that men funnel everything through, because that is the most acceptable emotion that men are allowed.
• 11:24
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, and this is a societal norm.
• 11:26
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: This is not biology, right?
• 11:28
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So, um, grief, I feel like there's a lot of shame.
• 11:35
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: There's a lot of shame attached to every emotion that's not anger coming from men.
• 11:40
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, and that's the thing too.
• 11:41
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It's like knowing all of this stuff and doing my best to practice it in my own life, I.
• 11:46
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 11:47
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Does not make me immune to all of the stuff I'm talking about.
• 11:50
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I still feel shame over crying or doing, you know, it's still there.
• 11:55
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I can just manage it better than I used to.
• 11:57
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So, um, I think grief, one of the biggest issues with grief is support and space, right?
• 12:10
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: A safe space to be allowed to have these experiences.
• 12:14
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And granted, that's true of many emotions, but,
• 12:16
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 12:17
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: um, it's, it's very unsafe for men to have most emotions.
• 12:24
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So we either end up going it alone or trying to go to the women in our lives and assuming that they're kind of the, the gatekeepers of emotion land anyway.
• 12:37
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So
• 12:37
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 12:38
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: just bring it all to them and I know how jaded women are from having to deal with that.
• 12:42
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, so.
• 12:47
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah, it just, it keeps coming back to anger.
• 12:50
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It just, pretty much everything manifests into frustration and anger.
• 12:53
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And ironically, a lot of that anger comes from being angry at ourselves for not being able to figure this out, because that's the, so it's like grief leads to frustration, which leads to anger, which leads to grief, which, you know, and then there's just this circle.
• 13:12
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 13:13
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: um, there's a difference between like the idea of stoicism
• 13:21
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 13:23
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: men in general, women too, but men in general, especially with the, the Red Pill bro, podcasts everywhere, telling men that they're supposed to do certain things.
• 13:33
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: There's a difference between, I'll say capital stoicism and little stoicism.
• 13:39
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: The capital stoicism is the classic.
• 13:42
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Ancient technique of understanding, navigating, working with, being able to identify and move through emotional experiences
• 13:55
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 13:56
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: and then not allowing certain actions that you feel compelled to do because of those emotions.
• 14:07
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 14:07
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: the stoicism is controlling your actions because of your emotions, whereas this idea of kind of modern stoicism is just, oh, I'm just not gonna let my emotions affect me.
• 14:21
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: No, no, no, no.
• 14:23
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Your suppressing them.
• 14:24
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: That's not the same thing.
• 14:26
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 14:27
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So avoiding denying or pushing them away or, or, or just, you know, trying to focus on something else is not being stoic.
• 14:37
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: That's, that's being repressive.
• 14:41
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So,
• 14:42
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: I love that.
• 14:43
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: I've never heard that distinction before between the, the big S and the little s
• 14:47
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: yeah.
• 14:47
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah.
• 14:48
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Um, that's really insightful.
• 14:50
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: And also when you were talking earlier about your experience with, with your own personal grief and everything, it, it kind of sounded a little bit like, like this belief that a lot of people have that, well, I can think through my emotions, I can logic through my emotions how sometimes that is a form of suppression, but what do you think on that?
• 15:08
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, hmm.
• 15:11
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I, the act itself, because it's an incomplete act.
• 15:16
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 15:18
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: That's interesting.
• 15:19
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Is it a form of suppression?
• 15:21
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I would say yes, because it is avoidance, but it's unintentional avoidance, right?
• 15:28
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Because you're, you think you're doing something that you're not.
• 15:31
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 15:31
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, and the, the analogy, it's a very easy analogy.
• 15:34
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It would be like forever planning a trip that you never go on.
• 15:38
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 15:39
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Well, I, I planned the trip.
• 15:41
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Look, there it is.
• 15:41
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Everything's done.
• 15:42
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Cool.
• 15:43
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: When are you gonna go?
• 15:44
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Well, what do you mean?
• 15:45
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Well, you're not gonna go on the trip.
• 15:46
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You took this long to plan, right?
• 15:48
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It just doesn't make sense that you wouldn't do that.
• 15:50
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: But when, when we focus on, you know, the emotional, the logic in your emotions,
• 15:55
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 15:56
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: not a word, but you get what I'm saying.
• 15:58
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, your, and the irony there too is that you, you literally can't be in both places at once.
• 16:05
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You can't be in your prefrontal cortex, in your logic center and your amygdala, your emotion center, right?
• 16:09
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It's one or the other.
• 16:11
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And so when your lo you're using your logic to think about your emotional state.
• 16:17
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You are simply cr, you know, either creating or acknowledging an awareness.
• 16:23
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You are putting labels on things.
• 16:25
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You're dotting i's and crossing t's, which is a good thing.
• 16:29
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: But if you stop there, you're not actually doing the work to address the issue.
• 16:34
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You're just labeling the issue.
• 16:36
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Hmm, huh.
• 16:38
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 16:38
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: I like that.
• 16:39
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 16:39
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: 'cause I know I've worked with quite a few people where once they feel like they've learned a few tools, they think, because I know these tools, I should never experience a negative emotion ever again.
• 16:51
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Oh yeah, that,
• 16:52
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: great.
• 16:53
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: yeah.
• 16:53
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: But like slowing it down and recognizing no, like there is that logic piece where I can know why I am feeling what I'm feeling, but it doesn't mean it's gonna take it away.
• 17:01
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: It
• 17:01
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: No,
• 17:02
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: gonna experience any emotion again.
• 17:03
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: It
• 17:03
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: right.
• 17:04
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: I'll know better how to navigate
• 17:05
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Well, and it's like, it's like saying putting a seatbelt on will prevent me from ever getting in a car accident.
• 17:10
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Well, no.
• 17:11
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It will just most likely save your life.
• 17:14
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So you are better equipped to survive the experience and navigate it healthily.
• 17:22
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Right.
• 17:22
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So that's really what it is.
• 17:24
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Hmm.
• 17:25
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 17:26
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: So from your experience and perspective here, do you feel like men and women experience emotions differently?
• 17:32
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Uh.
• 17:34
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yes and no.
• 17:35
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And I wanna be clear.
• 17:36
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, biologically no, and this is actually scientifically proven,
• 17:40
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 17:41
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: uh, there are some slight hormonal differences, obviously, because there are slight hormonal differences in general between men and women, um, because women have more estrogen and men have more testosterone.
• 17:53
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Uh, the chemical makeup of the emotional experience biologically is slightly different, but it's negligible.
• 17:59
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: The vast majority of emotional expression is societal.
• 18:05
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So it's how we're conditioned to emote to think about emotion, to feel emotion.
• 18:12
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 18:14
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: and that I find so interesting because it's always, it's always the guys that argue, well, this is just how we are.
• 18:23
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 18:23
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: But that's not true.
• 18:25
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It, it's, it is a skillset, not a trait.
• 18:30
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So.
• 18:32
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It is a societal trait, but it's not a biological one.
• 18:36
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Ooh.
• 18:36
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Okay, so let's sit with that for a little bit
• 18:38
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah.
• 18:38
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: a skillset, not a trait,
• 18:41
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah.
• 18:41
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: because it, it sounds like you're saying, okay.
• 18:43
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: They basically experience emotions the same ways, which tells me a lot of it is that societal conditioning.
• 18:48
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: And my perspective is right now in society, and this is one of the reasons I wanted to have you on so badly, is there's a lot of, you know, toxic masculinity.
• 18:58
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: in my mind, the cure for the toxic masculinity is increasing that emotional intelligence, that that ability to just figure out how to navigate those things.
• 19:08
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: And so it's interesting that you're like, no, this is a skillset you're, it doesn't mean that you can never learn how, like that's just society saying,
• 19:15
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Oh, yeah.
• 19:15
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: is how you're supposed to be a man.
• 19:17
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Absolutely.
• 19:18
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Well, and I do wanna address this too, because I, I hate buzzwords because they, they start out as beneficial as, you know, pointing to something and then they turn into these political, you know, and then people spout them and, and have no idea either what they mean or what they're supposed to mean, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 19:36
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So I would, I would like to, um, address the phrase toxic masculinity as authentic masculinity.
• 19:45
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Interesting.
• 19:46
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Okay.
• 19:47
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Gimme more of a definition on that one.
• 19:48
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Okay.
• 19:49
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Because really what you're saying when you're, when people are using toxic masculinity, number one, people that don't get it think you're saying that masculinity itself is toxic versus iterations of status quo.
• 20:05
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 20:06
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Old ways of thinking, versions of masculinity that aren't helpful or healthy or beneficial to you and your relationships.
• 20:13
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: That's what toxic masculinity is, right?
• 20:15
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 20:15
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So I find that saying authentic masculinity just wipes all the confusion out because what it is, is the positive aspects of being a masculine man.
• 20:28
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, and also the fact that masculinity is a subjective experience, right?
• 20:33
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: There are chemically hormone based, like testosterone is the masculine hormone, right?
• 20:43
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 20:44
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, but women have testosterone too.
• 20:46
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: They just have it in, uh, less or smaller amounts.
• 20:50
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: There we go.
• 20:50
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 20:52
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, but it's.
• 20:55
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Coming across as your authentic self within your own version of masculinity versus I have to negate all of my own stuff for this inside the box version that everyone else agrees is how we're supposed to be.
• 21:11
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: That is, and and first of all, like the toxic stuff is if you're hurting someone, the thumbs up emoji.
• 21:20
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: If you're hurting someone emotionally, psychologically, or physically in the name of masculinity, that is bad.
• 21:28
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: That is toxic, right?
• 21:30
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, it is also not authentic
• 21:34
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 21:35
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: no one is authentically cruel,
• 21:38
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Right.
• 21:38
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: right?
• 21:39
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: That comes from pain and trauma and granted in the, the few exceptions of brain chemistry, right?
• 21:44
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Like psychopathy and, um, people that are actually chemically deranged and they can't help it
• 21:51
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Uhhuh?
• 21:52
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: other than those people.
• 21:53
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 21:54
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It, it's, it is a conditioned choice that you just habitually continue to make, so,
• 22:00
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Ooh.
• 22:02
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: I love that, that it is a choice and I, I wanna just repeat what you said and your definition of authentic masculinity,
• 22:08
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Hmm.
• 22:08
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: I wanna kind of use that moving forward through this interview to keep in mind.
• 22:13
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Okay.
• 22:13
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: What we're gonna be talking about is authentic masculinity, and you described it as the positive aspects of being a masculine man.
• 22:20
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: So to kind of launch into that, what do you think are some of the outdated societal expectations that are still influencing how men express emotions now?
• 22:29
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah.
• 22:29
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And I, I think the biggest one is just the foundational assumption
• 22:37
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 22:37
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: that showing weakness, showing weakness, showing emotion is weakness.
• 22:42
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um,
• 22:43
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 22:44
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: and I.
• 22:46
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: What's so interesting to me is that the reason all of this is so challenging, I think for men is the black and white nature of how it's presented to us,
• 22:54
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 22:55
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: right?
• 22:55
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Either you're a strong man or you are a weak man.
• 23:00
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It's not that you are strong, where you have strengths and weak, where you have weaknesses and you look at the weaknesses as challenges to grow and evolve as a human being and a, a man.
• 23:12
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It's, no, uh, these things I'm good at and all these things I'm supposed to be good at.
• 23:18
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I have to pretend I am so I don't get judged and shamed for it.
• 23:21
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Hmm.
• 23:22
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So, and I realized I, uh, ask me the question again'cause I was starting to tangent and I was gonna go way over here.
• 23:31
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: No, just asking about, um, some of the outdated societal expectations that are
• 23:35
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Okay.
• 23:36
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So yeah, the boy, you know, the classics boys don't cry, you know?
• 23:41
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Uh, again, all the sayings suck it up, man up.
• 23:44
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, pretty much anything feminine, and this is what's so interesting to me.
• 23:51
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I like viewing masculine and feminine as being and doing internal and external, right.
• 23:58
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Again, they, they are traits, not who we are.
• 24:02
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 24:03
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: women can be confident and aggressive.
• 24:06
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Men can be compassionate and empathetic.
• 24:08
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 24:09
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Those are just ways we can be.
• 24:12
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, so when you're, when you're stuck in this idea that anything feminine is bad or wrong, or again, you'll be judged and shamed for partaking in it, you're negating half of your own.
• 24:29
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Not only experiences but your emotions.
• 24:32
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Th these are tools that inform you about your life experience and that help you to change so that you can have a better one.
• 24:41
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 24:42
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: it's all of the things that tell men that they should negate these natural beneficial messages from your body, um, in the, under the guise of, of strength and, um, confidence.
• 25:05
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Right?
• 25:05
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So it's, it's the uninformed negative version of fake it till you make it,
• 25:12
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Hmm.
• 25:13
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: right?
• 25:13
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So if, if, if every man would just learn instead of push it away and pretend, then they would be all of the things we're all pretending to be,
• 25:29
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 25:29
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: you know, so, but, but actually going through it and saying, I don't know.
• 25:36
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I need help.
• 25:37
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: All of those things.
• 25:38
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So I.
• 25:39
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: All of the things that would help us change are the very things we're told we shouldn't be doing.
• 25:45
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So it, it's under the guise of, uh, um, like wartime, right?
• 25:53
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Let's just go to an extreme.
• 25:57
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You can't sit there and, and, uh, say, huh, I'm feeling a little, uh, anxious about taking this, you know, hill with this grenade in my hand to blow up that bunker that could rip us apart with their machine gun fire.
• 26:11
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I should probably sit here and think about my emotions and feel them, and yeah, clearly that's not the time for that.
• 26:17
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Right?
• 26:18
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And this is the black and white aspect of it.
• 26:22
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: right.
• 26:22
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Men are told that that's how they should be in every situation.
• 26:27
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 26:28
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Nope.
• 26:28
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: We're in battle.
• 26:29
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: We gotta go to war.
• 26:30
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: We gotta, no, if you're actually in war or you're in an extreme circumstance that you don't have the space, the time, or the safety for yourself or somebody else to go through that process, of course you shouldn't do that.
• 26:43
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Right.
• 26:44
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: But, but to assume that every situation is that,
• 26:49
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 26:50
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: is the misguided part of it.
• 26:52
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah, and that gives me a lot more insight into what you were explaining about the authentic self.
• 26:56
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yes.
• 26:57
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: that a lot of it, it's not that either or.
• 26:58
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: It's not that Compassion and confidence are mutually exclusive, and so it's kind of just embracing your personal, true and authentic experience.
• 27:08
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: So it's not, okay, well this or this, it's, no, it's this and
• 27:12
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yes.
• 27:13
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: in a war zone and I'm also feeling anxious and like I want to
• 27:17
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Mm-hmm.
• 27:17
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: going to, because that's does not gonna fit the situation.
• 27:20
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Right?
• 27:21
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: It's not what I want to do, but I can acknowledge that, yeah, this and this and that.
• 27:24
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: That is a sign of that emotional maturity is allowing space and acceptance for all that parts of self.
• 27:30
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yes.
• 27:31
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And here's the interesting part.
• 27:33
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: The resulting action is still the same.
• 27:36
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It's going with that analogy, right?
• 27:39
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I'm not gonna acknowledge I'm scared, I'm just gonna push it down and take the hill.
• 27:44
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Okay?
• 27:46
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: That might not matter in the moment, but later, if that's not addressed, you're going to have deeper PTSD because of many other reasons, right?
• 27:55
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, versus I am gonna acknowledge that I'm scared, I'm gonna recognize that that's happening.
• 28:02
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It, it doesn't even have to take more time.
• 28:04
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It's simply an acknowledgement of what's happening, accepting that, and taking action anyway, instead of avoiding that and using the action to suppress the emotion.
• 28:15
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So.
• 28:17
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: The result, the immediate result is exactly the same.
• 28:20
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You're still taking action in spite of the emotion, but the investment in later is better because you're allowing what's happening instead of trying to suppress it.
• 28:32
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 28:33
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: It has me think about short term peace and long term peace.
• 28:35
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Right.
• 28:35
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: We think in the short term then this'll fix it to not address it.
• 28:39
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: But then that's not creating the long-term piece.
• 28:41
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Like you said, it could lead to more significant PTSD and and other issues where the emotion's gonna come out eventually.
• 28:48
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: We can just either do it consciously or unconsciously, but they're
• 28:51
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah.
• 28:52
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: out.
• 28:52
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And it is, it, it's, it's, the simple analogy is it's breath.
• 28:56
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You can, you can take control of your own breathing if you so choose, or you can just leave it alone and you're still gonna breathe.
• 29:03
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 29:04
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: are the same way.
• 29:04
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: They're gonna be there whether you want them to be or not, but if you proactively engage with them.
• 29:10
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You will not only build that skill, but the result of that skill will be a more enjoyable life experience.
• 29:16
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: That's just, that's just logically and factually true.
• 29:20
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 29:21
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 29:22
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: I love that.
• 29:22
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: And it also has me thinking from what you've been sharing, that it's kind of just like an acknowledgement of what is,
• 29:27
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yes.
• 29:28
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: just saying, okay, no, I'm just going to acknowledge it, without judging it.
• 29:33
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Because I think
• 29:33
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Mm-hmm.
• 29:33
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: that's that judgment that comes in that then we're trying to suppress it, noticing, okay, am I judging or am I acknowledging a huge self-awareness.
• 29:42
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Oh my God, yes.
• 29:43
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And that's a, actually, I hope I'm not jumping the gun here, but, uh, that ties very well into, uh, the hero training program that I created for that reason.
• 29:52
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: us more.
• 29:52
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So, uh, I was gonna get there, but you know, it's still early.
• 29:57
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Uh, so yeah.
• 29:58
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Hero training was, first of all, it's an acronym.
• 30:02
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It stands for happening, experience, response, and Opportunity.
• 30:05
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And it's a system I put together for myself.
• 30:10
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Around that time when my sister died and I was, my family exploded and lost my business.
• 30:14
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And, and it was like becoming a new father, especially, this is really where it, I first noticed it.
• 30:23
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 30:24
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I was just angry and I didn't know why.
• 30:28
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And I would obviously have these emotional reactions and I would feel compelled to take certain action or talk to my family a certain way
• 30:36
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 30:36
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: and excuse me.
• 30:40
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And I, I was like, obviously I need to get a handle on this.
• 30:42
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: But first of all, what is even happening, right?
• 30:46
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Because I just viewed it as one big thing.
• 30:49
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I,
• 30:49
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 30:50
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: says something or something happens and I feel something and then I feel compelled to react it and it just feels like this ball of one thing.
• 31:00
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And so I decided to break it down.
• 31:02
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I was like, what actually happens?
• 31:04
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So happening, something happens, period.
• 31:09
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: These are, these are compartmentalized individual things,
• 31:12
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 31:12
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: and this allows, it allowed me to see, okay, I start here, then I go here.
• 31:17
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Then I, oh, okay, I have control over this.
• 31:20
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I do not have control over that, so why am I wasting my time focusing on this?
• 31:24
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So something happens.
• 31:28
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You then have an experience.
• 31:30
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Your experiences, your brain and body give you thoughts, emotions, and sensations about what happened.
• 31:38
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You then feel compelled because of an emotion to react.
• 31:44
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You can choose to react or, or don't choose to stop yourself and it'll just come out.
• 31:50
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 31:50
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Or you can pause.
• 31:52
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Allow the emotion, understand where it's coming from, what's happening.
• 31:57
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Move yourself from your amygdala to your prefrontal cortex so you can respond instead of react.
• 32:03
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 32:04
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You're still, again, it's like taking the hill again.
• 32:06
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You're still.
• 32:08
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You're still doing something, you're taking action.
• 32:10
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You're just doing it proactively
• 32:12
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 32:13
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: in a more beneficial way.
• 32:15
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, and then opportunity is basically your downtime.
• 32:21
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It's, it's outside of an emotional experience when you're regulated.
• 32:24
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Again, being able to dig into it and saying, okay, what happened there?
• 32:29
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Why did I react this way and what can I do about it?
• 32:32
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: 'cause so often men, and this is a big issue too, we tend not to deal with the emotions that we haven't dealt with until we're having them.
• 32:42
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 32:43
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And because again, oh, going to therapy or doing emotion, uh, that's women's work and da da, da, you know, all the stereotypes and blah, blah, blah.
• 32:51
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 32:52
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So we don't do it unless we have to.
• 32:55
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And when we have to, we can't because we can't think logically when we're emotional
• 33:01
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Hmm.
• 33:01
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: and, and there's this misperception, oh, well, we're not emotional.
• 33:05
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: We're not sitting in the corner crying.
• 33:07
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: That's not what being emotional is, man.
• 33:09
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: That's what you think.
• 33:11
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So when you see a woman crying, you, we say, oh, she's, she's getting emotional.
• 33:15
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: But when a guy is screaming at the top of his lungs super angry, we don't say he's getting emotional, do we?
• 33:21
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Hmm.
• 33:22
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: No.
• 33:22
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Even though that's exactly what he is doing.
• 33:25
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Wow.
• 33:25
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yep.
• 33:25
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: You're right.
• 33:26
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: We judge it,
• 33:27
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Right.
• 33:27
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: We, he's out of control.
• 33:28
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: He's out of control.
• 33:30
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Huh.
• 33:31
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And, and the irony of that is that men view crying as being out of control for them.
• 33:39
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Wow.
• 33:40
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Okay.
• 33:40
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: So I'm just gonna ask for a little bit of more
• 33:43
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah.
• 33:43
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 33:44
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: as you're talking about reacting versus responding, can you give us a few ideas on how learning how to do that, how it benefits not only yourself, but also what that looks like in relationships and engaging with other people?
• 33:57
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah, absolutely.
• 33:57
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And, um, starting with the one with yourself, your own relationship to yourself and how you understand not only.
• 34:05
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: What you believe, but how you think and how that affects your life and all of that.
• 34:09
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It, it's a huge help because it's really just, it, it, it's acknowledging the elephant in the room in every circumstance.
• 34:17
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: If you're not including all parts of what's happening,
• 34:21
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 34:21
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: then you don't have some of the information you need to address, adjust, um, take into account, right?
• 34:30
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So, again, I'm analogy boy over here.
• 34:33
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So I like, uh, I've always found it easier for people to understand with different analogies.
• 34:40
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So, uh, like going into the mechanic to get your car fixed, right?
• 34:45
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And just, just look at the transmission.
• 34:49
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Don't look at any other part of the engine.
• 34:51
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Well, sir, what if there's an, I don't care.
• 34:53
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It doesn't matter.
• 34:54
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It's fine.
• 34:55
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It'll, like, that just sounds ridiculous.
• 34:57
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Why wouldn't you assess the whole engine to make sure something isn't wrong?
• 35:02
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Right.
• 35:03
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: it's similar.
• 35:04
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So.
• 35:06
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: If you're not addressing everything that's happening, then you don't have the ability to appropriately acknowledge and adjust.
• 35:18
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So you are then not coming from a resolved place.
• 35:27
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: 'cause there's still things you haven't dealt with and that comes out in your behavior.
• 35:31
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So maybe you're a little snippy with somebody or you're resentful, or it's all the stuff in the background that comes out passive aggressive, you know, conversations like all of those little things
• 35:42
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 35:42
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: that come out and inform your relationships.
• 35:45
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: How you talk to yourself in your head, how you talk to your partner, how you talk to your kids and all of those communications cycle back to you.
• 35:54
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So your family dynamic.
• 35:56
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And I hear all of, so many men talk about, oh, we gotta lead our family and, and you know.
• 36:03
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: We are in charge'cause we're the man.
• 36:05
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Great.
• 36:05
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Then prove it.
• 36:06
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Model how you're supposed to engage with your own emotional state so you can be big as stoic so you can be the leader that your family needs.
• 36:16
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Besides that, I don't believe that, that's a big thing for me.
• 36:20
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I don't believe that men are the leaders of their family.
• 36:23
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I believe they are a, a leader of their family and I think they should be.
• 36:28
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: But this whole thing, oh no.
• 36:30
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yes, women are equal to men.
• 36:32
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: But yeah, we're all human beings and we all have skills and we all have, you know, there are certain things my wife is way better at than I am.
• 36:40
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: She takes lead on those.
• 36:42
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: That is how we have a good family dynamic because we use each other's strengths.
• 36:47
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Instead of saying, no, you stay over there'cause you're a woman and I'll stay over here'cause I'm a man.
• 36:51
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 36:52
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Right?
• 36:52
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So it's, it's how you interact, it's how you resolve differences, it's how you argue and all of those things.
• 37:02
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Result in how you feel toward the people that you care about, what you can accomplish, how easy or difficult anything is.
• 37:16
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So why wouldn't you do something
• 37:20
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 37:21
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: make your life, your relationships, and your communication better and easier?
• 37:29
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 37:30
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: So speaking to the relationships things, and I'm totally just gonna like, like, yeah, you're totally free to coach me on this thing.
• 37:36
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Okay.
• 37:37
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: So
• 37:37
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Okay.
• 37:37
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: sticking in my head when you said that for men, when they're expressing anger, then they're thinking I'm in control.
• 37:43
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: And when they're crying, they're feeling I'm out of
• 37:46
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yes.
• 37:46
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: And also, like I am aware that I have totally, essentially shamed men for expressing their anger.
• 37:54
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Hmm.
• 37:55
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: it, I'm recognizing my own conditioning
• 37:58
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Okay.
• 37:58
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: have judged that, and I have shamed that, that, oh, there's a man that is out of control.
• 38:02
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Um, what advice would you have on like, rewiring that and, and how to better support.
• 38:09
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: I wish I could remember exactly what things I've said'cause that might be more helpful, but, but I'm just wondering, yeah.
• 38:13
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: How, how do you coach through that?
• 38:14
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: If you're coaching a man whose
• 38:15
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah.
• 38:16
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: getting after him, anytime he expresses anger,
• 38:19
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah.
• 38:19
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: would you navigate that?
• 38:20
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Okay.
• 38:21
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So not just specifically to you, but women in general then.
• 38:25
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah.
• 38:25
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, well, I will start this by saying, um, I was a guest on a podcast, uh, by, uh, a guy by the name of Ricky Yee.
• 38:33
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And, um, uh, you know, good guy, good character.
• 38:38
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Uh, I appreciate what he does,
• 38:41
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 38:41
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: men, but he and I, he and I fundamentally disagree on a lot of stuff.
• 38:44
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 38:45
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: but something that he said that introduced me to him, which led to me being a guest on his podcast was he said, um, men.
• 38:56
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Basically I, I'm paraphrasing now, but it's basically men, uh, use anger to cry.
• 39:03
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Hmm.
• 39:03
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And I thought that was a great insight for what it is.
• 39:08
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: But you can't, the problem is stopping there.
• 39:11
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It's, it's another one of those.
• 39:12
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Oh, yeah.
• 39:12
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Okay.
• 39:13
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: That makes sense.
• 39:13
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And then we just move on.
• 39:14
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: No, no, no, no.
• 39:15
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Now, now we have to be comfortable with actually crying
• 39:18
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 39:18
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: because what you're ultimately saying is this is how men are supposed to cry.
• 39:25
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Not this is just how they do and we should evolve their abilities.
• 39:29
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It's no, we've identified it.
• 39:31
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Okay, that's, that's good, but that's not what it should be.
• 39:34
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 39:36
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: um, the big.
• 39:38
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: The big thing moving forward with that from the female perspective.
• 39:42
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 39:43
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: and this I know, uh, is gonna be hard for a lot of women to hear because I have many women in my own family who fall into this category.
• 39:52
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 39:52
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, the first of all, the biggest problem that I see certainly in our society, but I think in the world in general,
• 39:59
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 40:00
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: is not men.
• 40:02
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It's misogyny.
• 40:04
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Hmm.
• 40:05
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: just that men tend to portray that more potently more often, uh, than women.
• 40:16
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 40:17
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: one of the biggest issues, and this is so ironic too because, uh, of all the men that are discussing these clearly misogynistic things, then, then feel like they can't talk to their partners or wives because they misogynistically judge them for it.
• 40:39
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So the very misogyny that men are perpetuating, they're receiving from the women in their lives, and they feel shame because of it.
• 40:47
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And then they're using that as a reason why they don't emote to their partners.
• 40:50
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Oh, well, she's just gonna use it against me in the future.
• 40:54
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Interesting.
• 40:54
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Okay.
• 40:55
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Can you give us a, a clear example of what that might look like in conversation?
• 40:58
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah.
• 40:59
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So, uh, well, crying is the perfect example, right?
• 41:02
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Uh, a man will express something.
• 41:04
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: He's having a hard time and maybe he tears up a little bit and she will say, or, or even if she doesn't say anything to him, but, you know, oh, suck it up, or stop being so whiny or, or whatever it happens to be.
• 41:19
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: But even if she doesn't say anything, there are plenty of stories of women going to other women and saying, oh my God, he, he just won't, he's crying about this.
• 41:28
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It's, and it's like viewing it as an emasculating thing instead of a supportive thing.
• 41:35
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So.
• 41:37
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: The, the criticism for so many women is to watch your own misogyny
• 41:43
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Hmm,
• 41:44
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: and just be aware of it, because that is probably one of the top three things I hear from men is I can't be vulnerable with my partner because she's gonna use it against me in the future.
• 42:00
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So they're afraid to open up because of how they're gonna be judged misogynistically by the women in their lives.
• 42:07
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Which is pretty heartbreaking, isn't
• 42:09
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah,
• 42:09
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: I, I mean, with you working with the men and we, me working with the women, they all want the same thing.
• 42:13
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: absolutely.
• 42:15
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: And a lot of women would say, no, I want a, an emotionally mature man.
• 42:19
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: But
• 42:20
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yep,
• 42:20
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: they're shaming them in the moment, and it might be subtle, like you said, maybe it's spoken verbally or maybe it's an eye roll
• 42:26
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: yep.
• 42:27
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: that's a little bit more passive
• 42:28
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yep.
• 42:29
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: but where the men are receiving the me message from the women that you are less of a man if you express it in that way.
• 42:35
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And even if it's not said explicitly, men pick up on it because we are hyper aware of any sort of shaming, look, signal, body language, anything like, because we've been set against it our entire lives.
• 42:50
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: That's the thing.
• 42:51
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: We don't want, we don't want shame, we don't want judgment.
• 42:54
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So the second that comes back at us from someone we are, we have a desire to support and lead and care for, and connect with and been, have been told by the same person that this is what they want.
• 43:12
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 43:13
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And then when we do, and granted the, the other part of this is that men are, men are dog shit at this because we have so little experience.
• 43:26
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Relatively speaking because
• 43:28
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Huh.
• 43:28
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: it doesn't mean that women are just naturally better at this.
• 43:32
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It's just that they are conditioned that doing this work is far more okay for them than it is for us.
• 43:38
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Oh, I totally agree.
• 43:39
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Like when you look at a bunch of ladies going out together, they all just feel their feelings together.
• 43:43
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Right.
• 43:44
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah,
• 43:44
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: it seems like, from what I've witnessed from different male interactions, a lot of men, they have to have like a shared project.
• 43:50
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: It almost seems like where it's almost, if they're parallel to each other and they don't have to look each other in the eye, it almost feels safer to express emotions.
• 43:58
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: yeah.
• 43:58
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And, and there is, there is this.
• 44:02
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Doing aspect of male connection.
• 44:06
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Right.
• 44:06
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And it, I, I, I don't know how legitimate it is, but I've heard the stories of hunter gatherer, you know, comparisons where women, women talk more because they needed to, when they were gathering to be loud, to scare away the predators.
• 44:17
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Whereas the men bond through action because they were not supposed to talk.
• 44:22
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So they wouldn't scare the prey away and they had to use hand signals and, you know, touch, you know, smacking on their back.
• 44:28
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And
• 44:28
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: fascinating.
• 44:28
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: so it's, I don't know how legitimate that is.
• 44:31
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I've just heard it before.
• 44:32
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 44:33
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: and it does make sense, but that's also not an excuse to stay that way.
• 44:37
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Like that was thousands and thousands of years ago.
• 44:40
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: We don't exist that way anymore.
• 44:42
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: right.
• 44:43
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: but the whole thing is just being able to have a space, and this is, I had to touch on safe spaces because I.
• 44:53
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 44:54
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: That phrase gets such a bad rap and you know, all the, again, the misogynist, oh, I need my safe space.
• 45:01
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And yet the very act of them saying that means they're in a safe space
• 45:07
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Hmm.
• 45:07
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: all being in a safe spaces is not feeling restricted.
• 45:12
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Hmm.
• 45:13
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So if you, if you can show up and say whatever the hell you want without fear of retribution or consequences,
• 45:20
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 45:20
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: that's called a safe space.
• 45:22
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 45:23
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And so many guys are viewing it again as this feminine effeminate, oh, you gotta be comfy and cozy.
• 45:30
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah.
• 45:30
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: What are you doing when you go to the bar and watch a game?
• 45:33
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You're comfy and cozy drinking your beer high five and eating wings.
• 45:37
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: That is your safe space.
• 45:39
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 45:40
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So it it, it's across the board for all of us.
• 45:43
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It's just how we view those things and then label them as for men or for women when it's all the same thing.
• 45:50
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It's just a different iteration.
• 45:52
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Right.
• 45:53
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Huh?
• 45:54
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: No, I appreciate that.
• 45:55
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: And talking about, yeah, where is your safe space and making that, yeah.
• 45:58
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Calling it what it
• 45:59
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah.
• 46:00
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Um, and I also thought it was interesting, like I'm all about accountability.
• 46:04
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: And so kind of, it sounds like from what you're saying, the accountability piece for the women is allow the men to have their feelings without shaming it.
• 46:12
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: It was interesting when you said men are hyper aware of disapproval, like being aware of how is it that I am showing up?
• 46:19
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Huge.
• 46:19
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: want an emotionally intelligent man, how am I responding to make it safe so that I can be that safe space?
• 46:26
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: And then also for the men practicing again, that emotional intelligence of, of channeling the emotions in, well, I don't wanna say safe ways, but I mean, as we've talked about, you know, sometimes it might be the explosion of anger, which is gonna be vastly different than like the expression of anger.
• 46:41
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: It's the
• 46:41
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yes.
• 46:41
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: versus the reacting,
• 46:43
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I would say healthy ways, right?
• 46:45
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Beneficial ways for the conversation.
• 46:47
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And here's a, uh, two really big things.
• 46:50
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Uh, number one.
• 46:52
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Boundaries.
• 46:53
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And I think it, it would help everybody to get a firm definition on this because this word gets, you know, sent around all over the place and so many people don't realize what it is.
• 47:03
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 47:03
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: many men view boundaries or, or think that rules are boundaries.
• 47:09
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I, I'm sure you run into this, right?
• 47:11
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Oh, no, you're, you're not allowed to go over, you know, I don't want you out clubbing.
• 47:15
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You're not gonna do that.
• 47:17
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And it was like, no, I'm just setting a boundary.
• 47:18
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: No, dude, you're setting a rule and you're trying to control someone else's behavior,
• 47:23
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yep.
• 47:23
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: a boundary.
• 47:24
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And I, I know I'm not telling you anything you don't know.
• 47:27
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, a boundary is for you.
• 47:30
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You are setting a boundary around someone else's action that if they cross that boundary, you will take a, a reciprocal action that is a consequence to them doing that.
• 47:43
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So if you're gonna speak to me that way, I'm going to leave the room.
• 47:47
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I am not gonna continue talking to you.
• 47:49
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: If you're gonna talk to me that way.
• 47:50
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: That is a boundary,
• 47:52
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 47:52
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: right?
• 47:52
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So as, as much as I'm saying that women, excuse me, need to watch their own misogyny and, and try their best to be a safe space, they also need to set their boundaries because there are plenty of men who will just, oh, you're my safe space,
• 48:10
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 48:11
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: know, and then it's just, oh, that's not healthy either, man.
• 48:14
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You don't dump your emotions on someone who's willing to talk to you about them.
• 48:18
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And that's the other reason that men need community, and men need brotherhoods to have this experience with other men instead of just assuming to dump it all on the, the women in their lives.
• 48:30
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: yeah, yeah.
• 48:31
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: So in addition to practicing boundaries, what are some other practical tools or strategies that men can use, um, to help them to regulate and express their emotions in more healthy ways?
• 48:40
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Okay.
• 48:41
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I, I, uh.
• 48:43
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I have something specific that I wanted to look up.
• 48:45
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: 'cause in my notes, um, I was reminded and I didn't wanna forget any of these, number one for sure.
• 48:57
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Uh, I have so many notes.
• 48:59
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I really wanted to talk about a lot of stuff.
• 49:00
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Oh good.
• 49:02
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, no, and I, I, I, I really love being able to have these discussions because matter of factly discussing this stuff is so important, especially after years and years of, of, yeah, I grew up Irish Catholic.
• 49:17
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You didn't talk about anything unless we absolutely had to, and then it was as quick as possible to get back to normal.
• 49:22
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You know, like, yeah, I don't want to be feeling this for too long.
• 49:26
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Hurry up.
• 49:29
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, okay, here we go.
• 49:31
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So I'm just gonna list them quick and then I'll give you the, the deeper explanations.
• 49:37
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So community, the emotion wheel i statements.
• 49:43
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Grounding, breathing and present moment exercises and understanding the vagus nerve and the, uh, sympathetic nervous system.
• 49:55
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Awesome.
• 49:57
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So those are five real, like, practical things that you can do.
• 50:04
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: First of all, community is more of a bigger overarching one that you build over time.
• 50:08
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Of course, the,
• 50:09
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 50:09
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: the other ones you can do of your own accord whenever you want.
• 50:14
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So, um, speaking of community, I actually have, I've, I've started a meetup group for men in general, but fathers specifically stay at home.
• 50:24
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Dads even, even more.
• 50:25
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: But, um, it's basically we go to the park once a week'cause I wanna bring my daughter there anyway and the kids play in the playground and we can have basically a community men's circle and go through some of.
• 50:40
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: My techniques and things and guys can bring their stuff and we can work on it.
• 50:45
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: That's awesome,
• 50:47
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, so I, I'm gonna be doing that once a week here.
• 50:50
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Obviously gonna be in LA'cause that's where I am, but I'm also doing a once a month zoom call for anyone who can't make it to those, so.
• 50:58
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: awesome.
• 50:59
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: And yeah, and if they find your, I'm gonna put all of your contact information in the
• 51:02
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Sure.
• 51:03
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: so if they find that they can get in touch with the once a month zoom call'cause that
• 51:06
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah, absolutely.
• 51:08
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And we'll go through, uh, the hero training aspects of things.
• 51:11
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I have something called emotion surfing that helps you in the moment.
• 51:15
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, and I can explain that, uh, that's part of answering this question for you anyway.
• 51:20
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 51:21
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: but going back to, uh, the emotion wheel, if you don't know what the emotion wheel is, and I know you do, um, there's a, a great one.
• 51:28
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You can go to the Gottman group.
• 51:30
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, they have a great one on their website, but just Google emotion wheel and you will get.
• 51:35
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Hundreds of iterations.
• 51:37
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: They even have them for kids.
• 51:39
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It is such a great little tool.
• 51:41
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It's basically in the, well, it's a wheel, right?
• 51:44
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And the, the hub of the wheel is the core emotions like anger, sadness, fear, and then each concentric circle that goes out there are more and less complicated ones.
• 51:54
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: But each concentric circle has more subtle iterations of the core emotion.
• 52:00
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So you can, being able to identify and label what you're feeling is a big part of the process.
• 52:07
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So having that tool there, and it's in my hero training to, uh, have that tool in there for that reason.
• 52:13
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 52:13
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, but just being able to identify what you're feeling more specifically allows more awareness then allows, oh, okay.
• 52:23
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So not only are you aware of what it is, you are aware of where it is in your body, how it feels.
• 52:30
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So you're building the skill of recognition.
• 52:32
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So when it comes up again, you're like, oh, I know what this is.
• 52:34
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I know how to deal with it, how to regulate.
• 52:37
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So it's the starting process of getting to build that skill.
• 52:42
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: So good.
• 52:42
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 52:42
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: I think that a lot of people, especially if they're more on the more emotionally immature side, they basically know three emotions.
• 52:48
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: They know sad, mad, and glad.
• 52:49
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah.
• 52:50
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: And so really like taking that time to really identify the emotion.
• 52:54
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Like, okay, well am I, am I sad or am I grieving?
• 52:57
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Am
• 52:57
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Mm-hmm.
• 52:58
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: or am I anxious?
• 52:59
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Absolutely.
• 53:00
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: are so close,
• 53:01
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yes.
• 53:02
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: or am I unseen?
• 53:03
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: But getting really clear on what the emotion
• 53:05
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Mm-hmm.
• 53:06
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: much information so you can actually get your need met,
• 53:08
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: There it is.
• 53:09
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: to teach you something.
• 53:10
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: There it is.
• 53:11
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: I love that big fan of the emotion wheel.
• 53:13
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Nice.
• 53:14
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah.
• 53:15
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah.
• 53:15
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And, and it's, uh, I would introduce it to kids as well.
• 53:18
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It's, it's a great tool.
• 53:20
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, number three I statements, a big one that I tell my clients is when you're feeling something and when you can identify it.
• 53:28
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And it sounds so cheesy, and I know it does believe me, uh, when I say it to myself, you know, the, uh, critic part of my brain goes, oh, you're such an idiot.
• 53:37
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Don't say that.
• 53:38
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You know, and it's, I am feeling, insert the emotion, and that's okay.
• 53:44
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: That's all.
• 53:45
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It's, I'm feeling angry, and that's okay.
• 53:47
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: But what you're doing is you're taking away the story and the meaning and the judgment, because it's simply information.
• 53:53
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It's chemical, hormonal information your body is giving you as a reaction to an experience.
• 53:58
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: That's it.
• 54:00
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: But then we add all this meaning and story around where it's coming from and why it's there, and how we should feel about it, and what this person's gonna think.
• 54:08
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: That's the stuff that is the issue.
• 54:10
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And that's my favorite thing about emotions.
• 54:13
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Chemically speaking.
• 54:13
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And emotion lasts 90 seconds.
• 54:16
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Well,
• 54:17
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: that amazing?
• 54:18
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: that can't happen, right?
• 54:19
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah.
• 54:19
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: feel it for 90 seconds
• 54:21
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah.
• 54:21
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: about how much time and energy we invest into resisting it when it's like, dude, if you could just sit there for 90 seconds and say, Hey, I'm feeling this way, and
• 54:30
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah.
• 54:30
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah,
• 54:31
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: and then you're done.
• 54:32
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: yeah.
• 54:33
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And that's the thing.
• 54:34
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: better than resisting for years and then blowing up,
• 54:36
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Well, yeah, and, and just the fact that then you don't have to continue feeling it because there's this assumption that, oh, well I'm, I'm pissed off.
• 54:46
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Well, if that's true, then why am I pissed off days and weeks later?
• 54:51
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Because you keep telling yourself the story that your system goes, oh, we're not done with this emotion yet, so let's keep the chemicals going.
• 55:00
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 55:00
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So you think you are doing it in response to your body continuing to give you this emotion.
• 55:06
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And it's really your body keep continuing to give you the emotion in response to the story you're telling.
• 55:12
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 55:13
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 55:13
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Well, and I heard one definition of trauma that I thought was super interesting, but they said trauma is just unprocessed emotion.
• 55:20
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yes.
• 55:21
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: and it kind of blew my mind.
• 55:23
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: 'cause I think we think about trauma as a huge, major
• 55:25
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Uh huh.
• 55:26
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: but, but when it's unprocessed emotion and you're choosing to, you know, ruminate on it or suppress it or, you know,
• 55:33
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah,
• 55:34
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: it, it's kind of self-inflicted trauma.
• 55:36
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: I mean, maybe something really did happen that's
• 55:38
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: no, of course, of course.
• 55:39
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: how many little things are, we are self-inflicted simply because we're not taking the time to just feel it.
• 55:45
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah.
• 55:46
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah.
• 55:46
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And, and that's, that's the ultimate, I like my 6-year-old refuses to take medicine.
• 55:52
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Just absolutely can't stand it.
• 55:54
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You know?
• 55:54
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Uh, you have 101 fever, you're sweating and your head is pounding, but somehow taking a just kind of tastes bad daddy.
• 56:04
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: That's worse than, but that's the thing.
• 56:07
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: a.
• 56:08
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It.
• 56:09
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And I'm like, kiddo, I am not gonna hold you down and shove it down your throat, but I'm telling you, you're going to feel better if you do this.
• 56:16
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I don't wanna do it.
• 56:17
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So she stays miserable simply because she doesn't want a little discomfort in her mouth.
• 56:23
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So yeah, it, it's that, Nope, I'm not gonna deal with this and I'm just gonna pretend that how I am experiencing things going forward is normal
• 56:33
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 56:34
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: and it's not.
• 56:35
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: that.
• 56:37
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yep.
• 56:37
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: So take the time to process it.
• 56:39
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yes.
• 56:39
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: the I statements.
• 56:40
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: I'm feeling this way, and it's okay.
• 56:43
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: All right.
• 56:43
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: And number four,
• 56:44
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Number four.
• 56:45
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: practicing presence.
• 56:46
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 56:46
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Tell us more on that one.
• 56:48
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Okay.
• 56:48
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Oh, I lose my place.
• 56:50
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I did, I'm talking too much.
• 56:54
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, grounding.
• 56:58
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Oh, shoot.
• 56:59
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I went way down.
• 57:00
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, grounding, breathing, and.
• 57:03
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Uh, uh, present moment exercises,
• 57:07
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 57:07
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So the reason this is important is because basically what you're trying to do is get yourself out of your amygdala, out of your emotional brain, and into your logic center, because then you can think rationally if, if you're stuck in your fight or flight, your parasympathetic nervous system, you are acting purely on emotion.
• 57:31
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And that can be a good thing when it's called for.
• 57:35
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: But so many of those experiences are in interactions and fights and relationship and all of that, and that's when it doesn't serve you right?
• 57:43
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So being able to breathe and ground yourself interrupts the emotional experience you're having and brings you back to your logic center.
• 57:54
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It doesn't make the emotion just go away.
• 57:56
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 57:57
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It just, it's kind of like, it, it brings your head above the surface of the water with regard to, and then you can kind of survey like, oh, okay.
• 58:05
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And then you move into something.
• 58:07
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And this is, I, I call it the watcher.
• 58:09
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It's the part of yourself that notices how you're feeling.
• 58:13
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And I, I, I wanna give this person credit, but I forget their name.
• 58:17
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I, it was a TikTok that I saw, and I, I thought it was such a great way of saying it.
• 58:20
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: The part of you that notices you're angry isn't angry.
• 58:26
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Hmm.
• 58:28
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: I love that.
• 58:28
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So, and, and I use that often because that is you returning to your rational thought.
• 58:38
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 58:39
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: a part, the higher part of you that isn't experiencing the emotion that is, and I view it kind of like, and the example I like to use,'cause this works for men big time, is in the Avengers, Dr.
• 58:50
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Strange,
• 58:51
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 58:52
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: has that ability where he can basically just hit you in the chest and your essence pulls out of your body.
• 58:57
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 58:58
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It's kind of like that, where you pull back and you can watch yourself being angry
• 59:04
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Hmm.
• 59:04
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: and you, and this is where you make those decisions from.
• 59:08
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I'm gonna pause, I'm gonna breathe, I'm gonna ground myself.
• 59:13
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 59:13
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: I mean, it sounds like essentially stepping out of that fight or flight response and turning on that prefrontal cortex, which is the watcher, right.
• 59:20
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah,
• 59:20
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: you be more consciously aware
• 59:22
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: yeah.
• 59:22
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Am
• 59:23
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: be able to act rather than react through that fight or flight lens.
• 59:26
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: So yeah, I love that.
• 59:27
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And a lot of this, a lot of this comes from learning about dealing with tantrums as a parent, because you're basically, you're.
• 59:36
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You're parenting yourself through a tantrum is what you're doing,
• 59:39
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Right.
• 59:40
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: right?
• 59:41
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: But especially guys who don't want to think of it that way.
• 59:44
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, but you're really, you're, you are giving yourself the ability to say, oh, buddy, it's okay.
• 59:54
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I know you're pissed off.
• 59:55
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Or I, I, you know, and it's not in a, a demeaning way.
• 1:00:00
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It's, it's almost like a child or like a dog or, you know, it's just like, oh, you don't understand.
• 1:00:05
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Ah, it's okay.
• 1:00:06
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I'm here for you.
• 1:00:07
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Right.
• 1:00:08
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So when you can move into that part of yourself, you have this ability to really have more control.
• 1:00:17
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And that's the point hero training is, is creating these pockets of control in a usually how, how it feels a very uncontrollable situation.
• 1:00:27
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Right.
• 1:00:28
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So the, the present moment, uh, exercise that I love, and this is good for kids who are having tantrums.
• 1:00:35
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 1:00:36
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You ask them to point out things in the room, what color is that lamp?
• 1:00:42
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: How, you know, what, what size is that picture frame?
• 1:00:46
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You know, uh, you're asking about tangible things that they have to use their logical brain to identify.
• 1:00:54
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Right.
• 1:00:54
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It forces you out of your emotion if only for that moment into your logic.
• 1:00:59
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 1:01:00
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And it helps, it helps pull you out of the fight or flight.
• 1:01:03
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: I love that.
• 1:01:04
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: So yes, really bring yourself back.
• 1:01:06
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: And I love how you said, oh yeah, it's just parenting yourself through a
• 1:01:09
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah,
• 1:01:09
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: I'm gonna start using that in my like self-coach now.
• 1:01:11
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Like, like, all right, this is a little bit of a tantrum.
• 1:01:14
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:01:15
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Oh God, I have him all the time.
• 1:01:18
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah.
• 1:01:18
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah.
• 1:01:19
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 1:01:19
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Because when you get stuck in your head, it,
• 1:01:21
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Mm-hmm.
• 1:01:21
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: see it as throwing a tantrum, but that's really what it
• 1:01:24
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Right.
• 1:01:24
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: We're just not adding
• 1:01:26
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: and
• 1:01:27
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: We're, we're just not.
• 1:01:29
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: We're not adding the child physicality of flopping on the ground and going Yeah.
• 1:01:35
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: But it's the same thing is happening in our head,
• 1:01:38
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: right.
• 1:01:38
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: so, yeah.
• 1:01:39
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: not acting out, like it might be silent and in your head that you're throwing a tantrum is
• 1:01:43
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Mm-hmm.
• 1:01:45
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Oh yeah.
• 1:01:45
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: That's
• 1:01:46
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Mm-hmm.
• 1:01:46
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: 'cause when you considered a tantrum, then you want to show up as the adult.
• 1:01:50
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Right.
• 1:01:51
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: it's like, okay, I guess I will parent myself through this
• 1:01:53
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah.
• 1:01:54
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: and act like a grownup instead of like the 2-year-old that's in my head right now.
• 1:01:59
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yes.
• 1:01:59
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And this, this connects big time to, and I, why do I feel like I already mentioned this, but the idea that actions and emotions are not the same thing.
• 1:02:07
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I think I mentioned it earlier, but
• 1:02:09
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: yeah.
• 1:02:09
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: But expand on it.
• 1:02:10
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah.
• 1:02:10
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: 'cause this is, and this is huge, and this is what that pause in the hero training is.
• 1:02:15
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It's right, right in between experience and um, response.
• 1:02:21
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: That's the place where you have control, because.
• 1:02:26
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So many people, oh, phrases like, what was I supposed to do?
• 1:02:29
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Or, I didn't have a choice.
• 1:02:30
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Right?
• 1:02:32
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: What you're really saying is I didn't choose to manage my actions.
• 1:02:39
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I allowed the emotion to inform my actions, and I just went with it.
• 1:02:44
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: That is that emotional wave.
• 1:02:47
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Huh?
• 1:02:48
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: I allowed the emotion to control my actions.
• 1:02:52
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah,
• 1:02:53
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: That's a big deal, because then you're choosing it essentially.
• 1:02:56
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: I
• 1:02:57
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Oh, yeah.
• 1:02:57
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: with anger, we just assume, well, it's everybody else's fault.
• 1:03:00
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: If everybody else would just do exactly what I wanted them to do, then I wouldn't ever act poorly.
• 1:03:05
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: But that's never gonna
• 1:03:06
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: No, no, no, no.
• 1:03:07
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You basically succumbed to an overwhelming emotional experience, and the skill is feeling that emotion, allowing that emotion,
• 1:03:22
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 1:03:22
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: curbing the behavior.
• 1:03:24
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So when, when people say, oh, you shouldn't be angry at that.
• 1:03:29
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 1:03:30
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah, I should.
• 1:03:31
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: 'cause I am.
• 1:03:31
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: There is no should or shouldn't, I am or I am not.
• 1:03:34
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 1:03:35
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: But you shouldn't punch someone in the face because you're angry about that, that is the should or shouldn't.
• 1:03:41
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So,
• 1:03:42
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: emotion is not the
• 1:03:43
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: right.
• 1:03:44
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: you choose to respond to it might be.
• 1:03:46
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And unfortunately, many people equate emotion and action in that way.
• 1:03:51
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Hmm.
• 1:03:51
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So they, they justify their actions because of their emotion, which
• 1:03:55
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 1:03:56
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: are two separate things.
• 1:03:57
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Hmm.
• 1:03:59
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Interesting.
• 1:04:00
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 1:04:00
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: This has been such a fascinating conversation.
• 1:04:02
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Okay, wait, and then we need to touch too on, there's one more, right.
• 1:04:06
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Oh,
• 1:04:06
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: the vagus nerve and sympathetic nervous system.
• 1:04:08
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Can we
• 1:04:08
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: yes.
• 1:04:09
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: All right.
• 1:04:09
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So this is huge because, um, the vagus nerve or the vagal nerve comes from your spine around, uh, on either side of your.
• 1:04:20
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Chest cavity basically,
• 1:04:22
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 1:04:23
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: it connects to your, uh, heart and your digestive system.
• 1:04:27
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So it's, it's the main branch of nerves.
• 1:04:31
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: That part of your nervous system that, that has direct access to all of the, all the stuff.
• 1:04:37
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You don't control
• 1:04:38
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 1:04:39
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You're blinking, you know, the stuff you can control, but that, you know, um, not the average person can't control their heartbeat, but there are monks who can do it.
• 1:04:48
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, so stuff like that, that you don't control your autonomic stuff.
• 1:04:52
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 1:04:53
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And when you can, uh, adjust how the vagal nerve is reacting, that also allows you to calm, it gets you out of fight or flight because that.
• 1:05:07
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Part of your body has direct access.
• 1:05:09
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So, um, one of my absolute favorite things, uh, I have other healthcare practitioners in my life and, and one of them, um, whenever he sees me it, first he gives me a hug and then he puts one hand on my chest, one hand on my back, directly across me each other and just breathes for like 30 seconds.
• 1:05:28
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Hmm.
• 1:05:28
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And that right there,'cause you're hitting the vagus nerves
• 1:05:32
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 1:05:33
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: and you feel supported, you feel connected
• 1:05:39
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 1:05:39
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: and it's, you feel held.
• 1:05:42
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And there is something inherently comforting about being held,
• 1:05:47
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 1:05:49
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: as a man where so many of us don't feel comfortable being held by anyone but a woman that we're.
• 1:05:55
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Physically intimate with, right?
• 1:05:56
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 1:05:57
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: even just a friend.
• 1:05:58
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I can give you a hug, but if it's too long, then oh whoa.
• 1:06:01
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Hey, you know?
• 1:06:02
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, but it, if it's another guy, forget about it.
• 1:06:04
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I'll, you know, I'll give you a, I'll give you a, a bro tap and then handshake and we're, we're good.
• 1:06:10
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, it's actually, uh, a challenge that I have in uh, um, a program that I created for men is you have to hug another man through two full breaths
• 1:06:21
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Huh?
• 1:06:22
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: just because of how uncomfortable it is
• 1:06:24
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 1:06:25
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: to get used to the fact that, you know, being,'cause we gotta get rid of the idea that being intimate beings being sexual.
• 1:06:32
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: 'cause it's not, it's not the same thing.
• 1:06:34
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yep.
• 1:06:35
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, so understanding how the vagus nerve works
• 1:06:39
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 1:06:39
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: and even putting an ice pack here to cool that part of your body helps.
• 1:06:44
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And as you're breathing slow, deep breaths.
• 1:06:49
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Also activate or deactivate the vagus nerve.
• 1:06:52
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So just your awareness of that part of your body and how it functions,
• 1:06:56
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm
• 1:06:57
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: allows for those tools and things you can do in the moment.
• 1:07:01
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: hmm.
• 1:07:02
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: That is so fascinating.
• 1:07:03
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Chris, this has been such an amazing conversation, and I know we've touched on so many things, but if you had to pick one key takeaway
• 1:07:11
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Hmm.
• 1:07:11
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: what would you like people to really remember?
• 1:07:15
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, well, I think, I think it's kind of what we started with, the idea that this is not a trait, it's a skill.
• 1:07:24
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: This is not something that some people have and some people don't or that you shouldn't have, uh, because you're a man.
• 1:07:30
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 1:07:31
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: is a choice.
• 1:07:33
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: This is something you can learn.
• 1:07:36
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And proof of that is because of what you have learned,
• 1:07:40
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 1:07:41
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: all of the ways that you interact and you function that.
• 1:07:45
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Continue to bring up these challenges for you, these emotional challenges and dealing with it the way you have been, either hasn't worked or hasn't worked in the way you'd like.
• 1:07:56
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 1:07:57
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: The reason for that is you're not viewing it correctly.
• 1:08:02
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So if you can just get it out of your head that this is just, oh, well, I'm a man and this is how it is, you can choose not to do it, and that's perfectly fine.
• 1:08:11
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I'm not telling you what you're supposed to do.
• 1:08:13
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I'm telling you that if you want this, it's very achievable, but it's like any other skill.
• 1:08:19
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You're gonna be crap edited first and you gotta practice.
• 1:08:23
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And when you can surround yourself with other people who support that and practice with you, again,
• 1:08:30
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Mm-hmm.
• 1:08:32
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: learning guitar.
• 1:08:33
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It's it.
• 1:08:34
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It's whatever you're doing.
• 1:08:35
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Surround yourself with people who are also doing that.
• 1:08:40
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You will get out of the, um, judgment and shame aspect of it and be able to show up authentically and then have a better experience.
• 1:08:48
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So there you go.
• 1:08:49
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: love that.
• 1:08:50
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 1:08:50
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: That's beautiful.
• 1:08:51
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: And like kind of just acknowledging, I love how you said yeah, you need to acknowledge what isn't working.
• 1:08:55
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Hmm.
• 1:08:55
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: really often we think, okay, well what I'm doing not isn't working, so I'm gonna try doing exactly what I've been doing harder.
• 1:09:02
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah.
• 1:09:02
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:09:03
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: It's like maybe it's time for something new, like be willing to admit,
• 1:09:06
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Absolutely.
• 1:09:07
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: isn't getting me the result that I want.
• 1:09:09
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: else is available?
• 1:09:10
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: What else is out there?
• 1:09:11
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: And speaking of, how can people find you if they wanna learn more about what you've got going on?
• 1:09:16
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Absolutely.
• 1:09:17
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, so I'm keeping it simple today.
• 1:09:19
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, I am just gonna give everyone my TikTok handle and my email address.
• 1:09:24
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So, uh, it's at Dad daily, but it's dad underscore daily, so D-A-D-D-I-N gre, D-A-I-L-Y, and then my email address is Daddying Daily, 1980.
• 1:09:38
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Nice little iteration there, um, daring Daily, 1 9 8 0 at Gmail.
• 1:09:43
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So, um, if you have interest, if you have questions, you wanna reach out, um, I am, I really pulled back from trying to have, you know, a funnel system and a payment system and all, like, I just work with who wants to work with me, and we discuss what my time and their, uh, value slash money is worth and we figure it out.
• 1:10:09
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: So, um, if you wanna do this work, uh, I always do free consultations and we can just have a conversation.
• 1:10:16
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: You can also join the free groups.
• 1:10:18
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I'm there for that.
• 1:10:19
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, the, I will send you the link to the meetup group so you can, you can post that.
• 1:10:25
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Um, but yeah, just find me on TikTok, shoot me a DM or shoot me an email and we'll have a talk.
• 1:10:31
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah, go follow Chris.
• 1:10:32
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: He has amazing content.
• 1:10:33
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: I love how engaged he is with all of his listeners.
• 1:10:35
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Like somebody comments and he'll do a whole post on just that one idea.
• 1:10:39
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: And so yeah, everybody should go follow him.
• 1:10:42
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: I know he's a coach for men, but go follow him ladies.
• 1:10:45
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: He's got some good content.
• 1:10:46
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: So thank you so much for being
• 1:10:48
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I ab I appreciate it very much, MaryAnn.
• 1:10:50
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Thank you so much.
• 1:10:50
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: And, and I do have 50% female audience, so I'm doing something right there too.
• 1:10:55
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 1:10:56
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Awesome.
• 1:10:56
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Well, thank you so much.
• 1:10:57
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Yeah.
• 1:10:57
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: Your wealth of knowledge and I learned a lot today, so thanks for being here.
• 1:11:01
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: Thank you for having me again.
• 1:11:02
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: It was great to be here.
• 1:11:03
  chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13-2025_143949: I.
• 1:11:04
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: All right, well have a great week everybody.
• 1:11:05
  maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_153949: We'll see you next time.