Latest / Blockchain Germany – Web3 Startups, Crypto Innovation & Venture Capital by Startuprad.io™ / Christian Conrad: Culture Is ROI (Part 1)
Transcript
- WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:20.080 <v Music> 00:00:20.006 --> 00:00:23.186 <v Speaker1>Hello and welcome, everybody. This is Joe from StartupRate.io, 00:00:23.586 --> 00:00:26.126 <v Speaker1>your authority on startups from Germany, Austria, and Switzerland, 00:00:26.486 --> 00:00:27.786 <v Speaker1>also known as the DACH region. 00:00:28.006 --> 00:00:32.266 <v Speaker1>Today, we're diving deep into why company culture might be your biggest growth 00:00:32.266 --> 00:00:34.806 <v Speaker1>level or your greatest hidden cost. 00:00:35.026 --> 00:00:41.186 <v Speaker1>My guest is someone who has dedicated his career to building what he calls magic 00:00:41.186 --> 00:00:43.406 <v Speaker1>cultures. Welcome, Christian Konrad. 00:00:44.786 --> 00:00:47.006 <v Speaker0>Hi, Jan. Lovely to be here. 00:00:48.026 --> 00:00:52.386 <v Speaker1>Totally. My pleasure. And we're both smiling because we're going to introduce 00:00:52.386 --> 00:00:56.826 <v Speaker1>our audience to a very simple German word. It's called Fachkräftemangel. 00:00:58.026 --> 00:01:03.286 <v Speaker0>Yeah, my Australian coach, Carl, always, you know, when we talk about that, 00:01:03.466 --> 00:01:06.466 <v Speaker0>he says, could you repeat that, please? That's such a beautiful word. 00:01:07.206 --> 00:01:09.606 <v Speaker0>It's impossible to pronounce for me. 00:01:10.726 --> 00:01:14.386 <v Speaker0>Fachkräftemangel. It's basically skilled labor shortage. 00:01:14.766 --> 00:01:21.886 <v Speaker0>But in German, we have that possibility to build words as we please and make them as long as we like. 00:01:23.526 --> 00:01:29.426 <v Speaker1>Exactly. There are other famous German words, but we are sticking today with Fachkräftemangel. 00:01:30.526 --> 00:01:35.386 <v Speaker1>Taking a quick bio from you, you have been the former marketing director at 00:01:35.386 --> 00:01:39.546 <v Speaker1>Kellogg's, not only marketing series, I do believe, for the DACH region. 00:01:39.546 --> 00:01:46.926 <v Speaker1>You have been formally with Unilever, also a food company behind a lot of brands for cooking. 00:01:47.346 --> 00:01:49.606 <v Speaker1>Ice comes to mind and a lot of other stuff. 00:01:50.366 --> 00:01:54.226 <v Speaker1>You are the founder of Engagement Booster. You are the author, 00:01:54.486 --> 00:02:00.226 <v Speaker1>attention again, Magnetische Unternehmenskultur, meaning the book is called 00:02:00.226 --> 00:02:01.606 <v Speaker1>Magnetic Company Culture. 00:02:01.606 --> 00:02:11.346 <v Speaker1>And you're on a mission to help 1 million employees to smile by 2035. 00:02:13.065 --> 00:02:18.465 <v Speaker1>Guys, if you're struggling with retention, recruiting, or employment motivation, stick around. 00:02:18.685 --> 00:02:22.685 <v Speaker1>This episode will give you a practical framework you can apply today. 00:02:23.145 --> 00:02:27.825 <v Speaker1>So let's set the stage. Why does culture matter? 00:02:28.085 --> 00:02:32.825 <v Speaker1>What I always have in mind is that culture eats strategy for breakfast. 00:02:33.205 --> 00:02:35.745 <v Speaker1>I don't remember who did this famous saying, 00:02:36.245 --> 00:02:38.325 <v Speaker0>But yeah, exactly. 00:02:38.605 --> 00:02:45.085 <v Speaker1>That is always been sticking to my mind and such a lot of people are talking about company culture. 00:02:45.345 --> 00:02:50.725 <v Speaker1>I had a former employee of PayPal, Michelle here, she also talked about company culture. 00:02:50.905 --> 00:02:55.605 <v Speaker1>And I vividly remember we both talked about if you first hire people, 00:02:55.885 --> 00:02:59.585 <v Speaker1>take away their parking spots and then start talking about company culture, 00:02:59.665 --> 00:03:02.385 <v Speaker1>you completely misunderstood something. 00:03:02.645 --> 00:03:07.505 <v Speaker1>So Christian, your vision is 1 million more smiling employees by 2035. 00:03:08.485 --> 00:03:12.285 <v Speaker1>What does that look in practice, and how did this mission begin? 00:03:12.705 --> 00:03:20.905 <v Speaker0>We actually measure it. We measure those smiling people because I define them 00:03:20.905 --> 00:03:29.945 <v Speaker0>as people who no longer are just okay with the place they're working at, 00:03:30.045 --> 00:03:31.825 <v Speaker0>the place of employment, 00:03:32.025 --> 00:03:37.165 <v Speaker0>but they're actually really happy or highly engaged. 00:03:37.505 --> 00:03:45.985 <v Speaker0>So, the difference between being enthusiastic and being just content is the key thing. 00:03:46.245 --> 00:03:48.505 <v Speaker0>That's why they're smiling. 00:03:48.785 --> 00:03:51.265 <v Speaker0>And what we're using is the Net Promoter Score system. 00:03:51.585 --> 00:03:55.265 <v Speaker0>So, we measure the Net Promoter Score for employees. 00:03:56.465 --> 00:03:59.945 <v Speaker0>And that gives you exactly that distinction. 00:04:00.865 --> 00:04:06.685 <v Speaker1>There is a Net Promoter Score for almost everything. Can you tell us about Net 00:04:06.685 --> 00:04:10.645 <v Speaker1>Promoter Score and why do you think it is useful? 00:04:11.661 --> 00:04:14.941 <v Speaker0>I think it's useful because it's simple. That's the first thing. 00:04:15.421 --> 00:04:21.421 <v Speaker0>And the other reason why I think it's useful is that it reframes the relationship 00:04:21.421 --> 00:04:23.041 <v Speaker0>between employee and employer. 00:04:23.481 --> 00:04:31.001 <v Speaker0>Basically, what you reframe is that you say that the employee is the customer 00:04:31.001 --> 00:04:33.661 <v Speaker0>for the product workplace. 00:04:34.481 --> 00:04:37.241 <v Speaker0>And you basically measure customer satisfaction. 00:04:37.241 --> 00:04:44.921 <v Speaker1>And a lot of people have actually done such a survey for customer net promoter score. 00:04:45.121 --> 00:04:47.741 <v Speaker1>How likely is it you recommend the product? 00:04:48.001 --> 00:04:51.261 <v Speaker1>One, very unlikely and 10, always. 00:04:52.421 --> 00:04:53.761 <v Speaker1>That's basically it. 00:04:54.241 --> 00:04:59.961 <v Speaker0>That's basically it. So it's the most simple but yet extremely powerful way 00:04:59.961 --> 00:05:05.761 <v Speaker0>of measuring employee satisfaction, which I think satisfaction is actually not 00:05:05.761 --> 00:05:09.181 <v Speaker0>what you want. you want excitement or engagement. 00:05:10.401 --> 00:05:15.161 <v Speaker0>And the people who are merely satisfied are usually on the 10 point scale are 00:05:15.161 --> 00:05:18.621 <v Speaker0>the seven and eights, you know, the, the ones that, that respond, 00:05:18.921 --> 00:05:26.321 <v Speaker0>how happy, how likely is it that you will recommend your, your employer to others, 00:05:27.021 --> 00:05:28.321 <v Speaker0>family and friends to others. 00:05:28.781 --> 00:05:32.621 <v Speaker0>And they say seven and eight and quite a lot of people say, well, 00:05:32.681 --> 00:05:34.641 <v Speaker0>that's okay. And that's exactly the problem. 00:05:34.781 --> 00:05:38.121 <v Speaker0>That's okay. and that doesn't mean you're a smiling person. 00:05:38.241 --> 00:05:41.741 <v Speaker0>Smiling faces are those people, or smiling people are those people who turn 00:05:41.741 --> 00:05:44.821 <v Speaker0>from being below 9 or 10 to a 9 or a 10. 00:05:46.697 --> 00:05:53.497 <v Speaker1>I see. So, 1 million smiling employees. When did you start and how far have you gotten? 00:05:54.577 --> 00:06:00.537 <v Speaker0>We started two years ago with the first client who ran the whole program, 00:06:00.697 --> 00:06:01.937 <v Speaker0>the engagement producer program. 00:06:02.217 --> 00:06:07.797 <v Speaker0>And so far, it seems like we haven't come very far, but we have actually run 00:06:07.797 --> 00:06:10.517 <v Speaker0>the proof of concept. We stand at 65. 00:06:11.617 --> 00:06:13.377 <v Speaker1>65 smiling employees. 00:06:13.377 --> 00:06:18.817 <v Speaker0>Yes. So, yeah, it's minimum viable product, product testing, 00:06:18.917 --> 00:06:26.257 <v Speaker0>and now comes the time when we build the machine because we want more smiling faces. 00:06:26.257 --> 00:06:34.657 <v Speaker0>And that means also more smiling employers because it's extremely high correlation 00:06:34.657 --> 00:06:39.157 <v Speaker0>with productivity and other economic factors. 00:06:40.057 --> 00:06:46.577 <v Speaker1>Okay, that means for including this year, you have to put a smile on around 00:06:46.577 --> 00:06:48.917 <v Speaker1>100,000 employees per year. 00:06:49.117 --> 00:06:54.917 <v Speaker1>And I assume it will go like a little bit more fewer this year, 00:06:54.937 --> 00:06:56.977 <v Speaker1>and then getting on and on and on. 00:06:57.537 --> 00:07:05.877 <v Speaker0>Yeah, we're planning to sort of start scaling, fully scaling in about three years. 00:07:06.057 --> 00:07:08.457 <v Speaker0>So that's when it takes off. 00:07:09.157 --> 00:07:13.977 <v Speaker1>I see. Let's get back to our favorite word. You've argued that Fachkräftemangel 00:07:13.977 --> 00:07:17.057 <v Speaker1>is often self-inflicted. What's behind this provocation? 00:07:17.897 --> 00:07:23.557 <v Speaker0>Well, I think that a lot of companies, because they don't invest enough into 00:07:23.557 --> 00:07:29.317 <v Speaker0>the relationships they have with their employees, have the problem of a lack 00:07:29.317 --> 00:07:32.037 <v Speaker0>of skilled labor, of Fachkräftemangel, 00:07:33.917 --> 00:07:35.497 <v Speaker0>they're actually to blame themselves. 00:07:36.417 --> 00:07:40.577 <v Speaker0>You know, it doesn't happen by itself, you know? 00:07:40.737 --> 00:07:47.637 <v Speaker0>It's like, I don't know who said that, but if you say that, if you liken a really 00:07:47.637 --> 00:07:50.757 <v Speaker0>competitive corporate culture with climbing a high mountain. 00:07:52.162 --> 00:07:55.302 <v Speaker0>Then, you know, if you see someone 00:07:55.302 --> 00:07:59.442 <v Speaker0>on top of a mountain, you can be fairly sure they didn't fall there. 00:08:00.182 --> 00:08:03.642 <v Speaker0>So it doesn't happen automatically. You need to climb the mountain. 00:08:03.842 --> 00:08:07.222 <v Speaker0>So it usually requires a transformation. 00:08:07.822 --> 00:08:11.682 <v Speaker0>It requires investment of time and resources. 00:08:12.782 --> 00:08:19.802 <v Speaker0>And you don't get there. It's as unlikely to just happen to have a strong brand, 00:08:20.162 --> 00:08:27.262 <v Speaker0>which also everybody would say, okay, yeah, I agree that doesn't happen automatically. 00:08:27.262 --> 00:08:32.722 <v Speaker0>It takes three to five years to build a strong brand with a lot of investment and dedication. 00:08:33.902 --> 00:08:39.322 <v Speaker0>And the same goes for a strong corporate culture that has a high engagement level. 00:08:40.922 --> 00:08:44.522 <v Speaker1>We're talking mostly because that's a main concern of our main audience. 00:08:44.682 --> 00:08:48.682 <v Speaker1>Fachkräfte, meaning qualified employees, for example, doing marketing, 00:08:49.022 --> 00:08:52.882 <v Speaker1>most of the time doing coding or engineers and so on and so forth, 00:08:53.862 --> 00:08:55.322 <v Speaker1>highly qualified people. 00:08:55.542 --> 00:09:00.462 <v Speaker1>I was wondering when I was thinking about that, how high does it apply? 00:09:00.642 --> 00:09:05.082 <v Speaker1>So how high can you really put that in terms of level? 00:09:05.202 --> 00:09:11.882 <v Speaker1>Because most people who would be subject to this magnetic company culture would 00:09:11.882 --> 00:09:16.122 <v Speaker1>be on the employee level. But basically, you have to scale it all the way up 00:09:16.122 --> 00:09:18.302 <v Speaker1>the ladder up to the top management, right? 00:09:19.442 --> 00:09:23.202 <v Speaker0>Yes, that's why you – I mean, if you run a transformation program, 00:09:23.202 --> 00:09:28.782 <v Speaker0>my belief is you always have to go top down, whatever you want to transform. 00:09:29.142 --> 00:09:33.522 <v Speaker0>And in this case, you want to increase the emotional connectedness people feel 00:09:33.522 --> 00:09:35.922 <v Speaker0>with their employer, i.e. engagement. 00:09:36.242 --> 00:09:39.682 <v Speaker0>You know, that's my translation of engagement, emotional connectedness. 00:09:39.682 --> 00:09:44.062 <v Speaker0>And if you want to transform that within the organization, you have to start top-down. 00:09:44.482 --> 00:09:46.862 <v Speaker0>So I always start with C-level. 00:09:48.242 --> 00:09:53.962 <v Speaker1>Okay, we are already in your framework. Let's define your core framework. 00:09:54.882 --> 00:09:58.542 <v Speaker1>What makes a company culture truly magnetic? 00:10:00.364 --> 00:10:07.484 <v Speaker0>For me, the key factor is actually what the Gallup Institute, 00:10:07.764 --> 00:10:13.504 <v Speaker0>the American Research Institute Gallup calls engagement, and I translate as 00:10:13.504 --> 00:10:15.564 <v Speaker0>meaning emotional connectedness. 00:10:15.684 --> 00:10:20.384 <v Speaker0>If you have a high emotional connectedness with your employer, 00:10:20.724 --> 00:10:22.684 <v Speaker0>you have a magnetic culture. 00:10:22.844 --> 00:10:29.184 <v Speaker0>So the majority of people have a high likelihood to actually recommend their 00:10:29.184 --> 00:10:32.604 <v Speaker0>place of employment to others. 00:10:32.824 --> 00:10:34.884 <v Speaker0>That is the highest level. 00:10:37.364 --> 00:10:46.804 <v Speaker1>And many people do confuse company culture, having a good company culture with having a fancy office. 00:10:47.024 --> 00:10:54.044 <v Speaker1>Can you try to differentiate between having a fancy office and having a fancy 00:10:54.044 --> 00:10:55.404 <v Speaker1>or magnetic company culture? 00:10:56.504 --> 00:11:02.024 <v Speaker0>I mean, I would say that having an office where people like to go to, 00:11:02.264 --> 00:11:07.804 <v Speaker0>whether it's fancy or not, you know, you can debate whether the fanciness actually 00:11:07.804 --> 00:11:08.984 <v Speaker0>makes people want to go there. 00:11:09.184 --> 00:11:15.364 <v Speaker0>I think that a shoddy office actually is a disincentive for people to go to the office. 00:11:15.524 --> 00:11:21.264 <v Speaker0>So if people, if companies complain that people are working from home too much, 00:11:21.484 --> 00:11:24.344 <v Speaker0>they need to make it attractive to get to the office. 00:11:24.344 --> 00:11:30.404 <v Speaker0>I think that having an office where people like to go to is very important because 00:11:30.404 --> 00:11:32.404 <v Speaker0>that's where they meet. That's where they connect. 00:11:32.604 --> 00:11:34.704 <v Speaker0>That's where they interact. 00:11:36.444 --> 00:11:41.564 <v Speaker0>I know you can feel connected when you work remotely, but a lot of companies 00:11:41.564 --> 00:11:47.964 <v Speaker0>post-COVID have actually realized that you need to be together at times, 00:11:48.184 --> 00:11:51.084 <v Speaker0>particularly when you work creatively and as a team. 00:11:52.550 --> 00:12:01.390 <v Speaker1>Does your framework therefore also or only partially apply to fully remote companies? 00:12:01.910 --> 00:12:07.390 <v Speaker0>I would say it applies to all companies because what it does, 00:12:07.650 --> 00:12:09.930 <v Speaker0>it works with what is, right? 00:12:09.930 --> 00:12:17.330 <v Speaker0>I mean, whatever your setup is, and if you measure how connected people are, 00:12:17.630 --> 00:12:22.790 <v Speaker0>that's where you will get some responses as to how you can improve it. 00:12:23.770 --> 00:12:28.450 <v Speaker0>And if people say, you know, because when you ask the question, 00:12:28.630 --> 00:12:33.490 <v Speaker0>how likely is it that you recommend the employer, you get a figure. So that's descriptive. 00:12:34.970 --> 00:12:43.870 <v Speaker0>All the people are asked a second question, which is, if you're a 9 and 10, what did we actually do? 00:12:44.930 --> 00:12:48.630 <v Speaker0>What actually caused you to give us a 9 or a 10? 00:12:49.950 --> 00:12:54.770 <v Speaker0>And then you get an open-ended question and people can write whatever it is 00:12:54.770 --> 00:12:56.170 <v Speaker0>that they love about the company. 00:12:56.170 --> 00:13:03.550 <v Speaker1>And one of those things you do to get your employee to 9 or 10 on a net promoter 00:13:03.550 --> 00:13:07.430 <v Speaker1>score is what you also call engagement boosters. 00:13:08.530 --> 00:13:14.770 <v Speaker1>What is it? Can you walk us through and why it's so deceptively effective? 00:13:16.055 --> 00:13:19.355 <v Speaker0>Yes. I mean, what, what, what, what I've spent a lot of time, 00:13:19.515 --> 00:13:27.155 <v Speaker0>I, I would say that I've been thinking about company culture from since I finished university. 00:13:27.535 --> 00:13:32.255 <v Speaker0>Um, the first time I ever got, got in a context with, with, with corporate culture, 00:13:32.375 --> 00:13:36.975 <v Speaker0>I was still at university because I wrote an essay on corporate culture, 00:13:37.195 --> 00:13:40.835 <v Speaker0>marketing strategy to corporate success because I wanted to win an internship 00:13:40.835 --> 00:13:42.135 <v Speaker0>with Lufthansa in New York. 00:13:42.955 --> 00:13:44.875 <v Speaker0>That was one of the prizes. Yeah. 00:13:45.055 --> 00:13:45.795 <v Speaker1>Did you get it? 00:13:46.055 --> 00:13:52.175 <v Speaker0>And I got it, yeah. And that set me up for marketing because I'd never studied any marketing. 00:13:52.455 --> 00:13:55.175 <v Speaker0>So actually, that's corporate culture. That's where he started. 00:13:55.335 --> 00:14:00.395 <v Speaker0>And I got to know corporate culture and worked as a consultant for many years. 00:14:01.075 --> 00:14:07.995 <v Speaker0>And now since 10 years, I've dedicated my life to working on culture and coaching leadership topics. 00:14:08.695 --> 00:14:11.835 <v Speaker0>So that's the background story. 00:14:11.835 --> 00:14:18.635 <v Speaker0>Um, but my engagement booster program base is based on, um, 00:14:19.275 --> 00:14:24.795 <v Speaker0>the, the assumption that there are always lead measures that have an over proportionate 00:14:24.795 --> 00:14:29.295 <v Speaker0>influence on whatever you, the goal you want to achieve. 00:14:29.435 --> 00:14:34.735 <v Speaker0>And the big audacious goal that we want to achieve is we want to move that fairly 00:14:34.735 --> 00:14:39.375 <v Speaker0>fluffy sounding engagement, which isn't that, which isn't fluffy at all, you know, 00:14:39.535 --> 00:14:43.455 <v Speaker0>but it's, it's like a big rock and we want to move it and what are what are 00:14:43.455 --> 00:14:49.675 <v Speaker0>key levers and those levers are behaviors that you can display daily or weekly 00:14:49.675 --> 00:14:58.495 <v Speaker0>so something that you can do or whoever you are in the organization any day of the week, 00:15:00.175 --> 00:15:01.015 <v Speaker0>That's a lever. 00:15:01.795 --> 00:15:04.955 <v Speaker1>Can you give us an example of such engagement boosters? 00:15:05.215 --> 00:15:08.895 <v Speaker0>I have identified three, and I wouldn't say they're the only ones, 00:15:08.955 --> 00:15:12.135 <v Speaker0>but they have an over-proportionate influence on engagement. 00:15:12.335 --> 00:15:15.235 <v Speaker0>The first one I call connective listening. 00:15:15.675 --> 00:15:19.855 <v Speaker0>So that's listening with the intent to strengthen the connection. 00:15:20.355 --> 00:15:25.535 <v Speaker0>Like if I'm listening to you, not with the intent to reply, but actually with 00:15:25.535 --> 00:15:27.915 <v Speaker0>building a connection, something changes. 00:15:29.135 --> 00:15:33.235 <v Speaker0>Now, we're in an interview, so, you know, it's not necessarily, 00:15:33.515 --> 00:15:37.895 <v Speaker0>you know, we will create a connection through the interview if we also listen to each other. 00:15:38.135 --> 00:15:44.935 <v Speaker0>Um, but it's a mindset and then it's also a practice and the, 00:15:44.935 --> 00:15:49.555 <v Speaker0>the economic benefit of that is first and foremost, that you reduce, 00:15:49.555 --> 00:15:52.075 <v Speaker0>reduce the number of misunderstandings that happen. 00:15:52.075 --> 00:15:59.275 <v Speaker0>And one of the big, you know, big bad things that happen in organizations that 00:15:59.275 --> 00:16:04.355 <v Speaker0>negatively influences the feeling of emotional connectedness are misunderstandings. 00:16:04.455 --> 00:16:06.995 <v Speaker0>And it's also the biggest productivity killer. 00:16:07.595 --> 00:16:11.135 <v Speaker0>So the other thing that happens, it builds trust. 00:16:11.395 --> 00:16:18.595 <v Speaker0>So on one hand, you have a very economic impact. You reduce misunderstandings 00:16:18.595 --> 00:16:21.655 <v Speaker0>and you increase productivity automatically. 00:16:22.295 --> 00:16:26.575 <v Speaker0>If everybody stops interrupting each other and people start listening to each 00:16:26.575 --> 00:16:31.695 <v Speaker0>other, really making sure they understand and they build a connectedness among 00:16:31.695 --> 00:16:35.835 <v Speaker0>each other, that productivity increases and trust increases as well. 00:16:36.955 --> 00:16:44.095 <v Speaker0>Because if you kind of put yourself in a situation where you're in conversation 00:16:44.095 --> 00:16:49.475 <v Speaker0>with someone and you realize someone is actually truly listening to me and seeking 00:16:49.475 --> 00:16:52.155 <v Speaker0>to understand me, you will open up. Thank you. 00:16:53.496 --> 00:17:02.016 <v Speaker0>And wherever trust is high, speed of execution goes up and transaction costs go down. 00:17:02.636 --> 00:17:08.456 <v Speaker1>I like that idea for multiple reasons, because my next question, 00:17:08.456 --> 00:17:16.376 <v Speaker1>we'll soon get to that, is talking about emotional connections that also disqualifies. 00:17:17.456 --> 00:17:21.476 <v Speaker1>If you can measure that, if you're really serious about that, 00:17:21.656 --> 00:17:28.776 <v Speaker1>that can basically help reduce the number of bad bosses if you're not just looking 00:17:28.776 --> 00:17:32.656 <v Speaker1>at financial KPIs, which is something I really, really like. 00:17:33.256 --> 00:17:39.016 <v Speaker1>And going to my next question, the emotional connection is now a new business KPI. 00:17:39.316 --> 00:17:42.276 <v Speaker1>How can companies start measuring that? 00:17:43.156 --> 00:17:49.776 <v Speaker0>Well, the simplest way that I know of is measuring net promoter score. 00:17:50.036 --> 00:17:54.996 <v Speaker0>So you measure the employee net promoter score by asking that very simple question. 00:17:55.656 --> 00:17:59.576 <v Speaker0>You can either do it yourself or you can have someone like me do it for you, 00:17:59.576 --> 00:18:04.676 <v Speaker0>which increases the likelihood if you do it externally that people will be honest about their responses. 00:18:05.416 --> 00:18:11.256 <v Speaker0>So you can do it internally, yes, but if you want to have really honest responses, 00:18:11.276 --> 00:18:14.296 <v Speaker0>you usually outsource this because then you have... 00:18:15.353 --> 00:18:19.413 <v Speaker0>The less likelihood that people would think if I am really honest about what's 00:18:19.413 --> 00:18:23.233 <v Speaker0>wrong here and what needs to change, I will not suffer any consequences. 00:18:23.993 --> 00:18:27.653 <v Speaker0>But that's what you can do. You know, you can, you can, you can measure that. 00:18:27.773 --> 00:18:31.453 <v Speaker0>You can ask that question. You could, there are other methodologies that you can use. 00:18:31.713 --> 00:18:34.373 <v Speaker0>Um, there's a Gallup engagement index. 00:18:34.673 --> 00:18:38.913 <v Speaker0>You can, you can enlist Gallup. That's 12 questions. So-called Q12. 00:18:39.193 --> 00:18:40.553 <v Speaker0>That's another way of doing it. 00:18:40.873 --> 00:18:45.973 <v Speaker0>So there is a number of different ways of measuring that, But I love it if you 00:18:45.973 --> 00:18:49.453 <v Speaker0>measure it, because what you can measure, you can manage. 00:18:50.073 --> 00:18:51.973 <v Speaker0>What you can't measure, you can't manage. 00:18:52.793 --> 00:18:58.773 <v Speaker1>Exactly. The thing is, I was thinking at one point, because you have an MVP, 00:18:59.133 --> 00:19:06.693 <v Speaker1>but at one point down the road, this KPI would also influence and show up in 00:19:06.693 --> 00:19:09.793 <v Speaker1>other KPIs that you then usually measure. 00:19:09.973 --> 00:19:14.993 <v Speaker1>For example, what comes to mind is employee turnover. Absolutely. 00:19:15.833 --> 00:19:19.133 <v Speaker0>Sick leave, productivity. 00:19:21.833 --> 00:19:28.573 <v Speaker1>What's one cultural shift you've seen transforming hiring or retention metrics overnight? 00:19:29.193 --> 00:19:38.213 <v Speaker0>One of the clients that I've been working with, they report that the quality 00:19:38.213 --> 00:19:42.913 <v Speaker0>and numbers of their employees, of their, of their, um, 00:19:44.873 --> 00:19:50.573 <v Speaker0>of people that have their applicants have significantly increased within less 00:19:50.573 --> 00:19:53.673 <v Speaker0>than a year since they ran the engagement booster program, 00:19:53.833 --> 00:20:00.613 <v Speaker0>which isn't surprising to me, you know, because, because what it does, it actually, 00:20:03.002 --> 00:20:06.982 <v Speaker0>changes the way that people work with each other and that in today's world, 00:20:07.322 --> 00:20:16.582 <v Speaker0>fast-moving world, translates into social media buzz and very clearly things 00:20:16.582 --> 00:20:18.322 <v Speaker0>like Glassdoor or Canuna Ratings. 00:20:18.422 --> 00:20:23.882 <v Speaker1>We said that more applications, in the back of my mind, they just started a 00:20:23.882 --> 00:20:26.902 <v Speaker1>small Joe jumping up and down with the sign Fachkräftemangel. 00:20:27.742 --> 00:20:32.702 <v Speaker0>Exactly. And for that company, that's hugely important because they're growing at a double-digit 00:20:33.002 --> 00:20:39.022 <v Speaker0>So that is not something that's not a small thing, you know, 00:20:39.102 --> 00:20:45.042 <v Speaker0>if you are desperately looking for highly qualified staff to fuel your growth, 00:20:45.222 --> 00:20:48.322 <v Speaker0>if you can't get them, you get what I call non turnover. 00:20:48.822 --> 00:20:55.362 <v Speaker0>You know, you get a lack of growth simply because you can't staff your projects. 00:20:56.222 --> 00:21:04.082 <v Speaker1>Yeah. I'm always curious about the experiences of our audience. 00:21:04.082 --> 00:21:08.882 <v Speaker1>So I was wondering, guys, what's the smallest cultural habit that make a big 00:21:08.882 --> 00:21:10.402 <v Speaker1>difference in your company? 00:21:10.662 --> 00:21:17.682 <v Speaker1>Share it with us on LinkedIn or tag us at xbluesky or threads at Startup Radio. 00:21:19.422 --> 00:21:24.542 <v Speaker1>Christian, let's do a deep dive leadership, trust, and culture design. 00:21:24.862 --> 00:21:30.702 <v Speaker1>You speak about leading with love instead of fear. What does it mean in the boardroom? 00:21:32.402 --> 00:21:38.302 <v Speaker1>Just to be sure nobody heard this wrong. I said boardroom, you dirty minds. 00:21:42.019 --> 00:21:46.819 <v Speaker0>Well, I think, I think it's a choice that every leader has, how do you want to lead? 00:21:47.019 --> 00:21:53.839 <v Speaker0>So if you, if we, we contrast the two, two, two paradigms, 00:21:54.019 --> 00:21:57.019 <v Speaker0>then leading with love would be seeing the person, 00:21:57.199 --> 00:22:03.719 <v Speaker0>um, as well as the financial KPIs and figures and leading with fear usually 00:22:03.719 --> 00:22:09.999 <v Speaker0>means seeing less the person, but just using people to achieve your means, 00:22:10.039 --> 00:22:11.579 <v Speaker0>which is a huge difference. 00:22:12.019 --> 00:22:19.099 <v Speaker0>Right? Um, and if you lead with love, it doesn't mean that you are fluffy or soft. 00:22:19.279 --> 00:22:24.039 <v Speaker0>It means that you are respectful, firm, have clear, have a clear vision, 00:22:24.039 --> 00:22:29.919 <v Speaker0>but people actually are a huge decisive factor in your, in your, 00:22:30.059 --> 00:22:31.759 <v Speaker0>in the way that you manage and lead. 00:22:32.559 --> 00:22:37.459 <v Speaker0>If you lead with fear, people are usually not really a big factor. 00:22:37.639 --> 00:22:42.419 <v Speaker0>You, I've heard people say that it doesn't really matter who we have. 00:22:42.559 --> 00:22:45.119 <v Speaker0>Anybody can be substituted. 00:22:45.299 --> 00:22:49.339 <v Speaker0>So we use people, throw them away, and get new ones. 00:22:50.639 --> 00:22:59.479 <v Speaker0>And in a situation where you have Fachkräftemangel, that is something that you 00:22:59.479 --> 00:23:02.439 <v Speaker0>need very deep pockets to be able to afford. 00:23:03.239 --> 00:23:15.879 <v Speaker0>So I think it's a hugely, it's a highly economic business figure or related 00:23:15.879 --> 00:23:22.059 <v Speaker0>paradigm shift that you will see in the bottom line. 00:23:22.179 --> 00:23:26.699 <v Speaker0>If you move from a management by fear to a management by love, 00:23:26.819 --> 00:23:31.719 <v Speaker0>love sounds so fluffy, but love just means that people actually play a huge role. 00:23:32.579 --> 00:23:34.899 <v Speaker0>What does it mean? It means that you. 00:23:36.905 --> 00:23:44.385 <v Speaker0>In very economic terms, it means that you put people away from the P&L into the balance sheet. 00:23:46.265 --> 00:23:51.285 <v Speaker0>You get the point? You know, human resources are not in the balance sheet, 00:23:51.485 --> 00:23:53.025 <v Speaker0>which is why they're treated as costs. 00:23:54.625 --> 00:23:58.825 <v Speaker0>So they're treated worse than machines that are actually in the balance sheet, 00:23:59.525 --> 00:24:04.965 <v Speaker0>and that are written off. So you need to reinvest continuously in your machinery 00:24:04.965 --> 00:24:09.565 <v Speaker0>equipment, and your technical equipment, because it needs to be renewed. 00:24:10.565 --> 00:24:16.505 <v Speaker0>So if you make that kind of change in thinking, you're actually moving towards 00:24:16.505 --> 00:24:20.825 <v Speaker0>the love side, away from the fear side. 00:24:22.425 --> 00:24:26.665 <v Speaker0>I mean, nobody would beat their machine up, would they, literally or figuratively? 00:24:27.565 --> 00:24:32.585 <v Speaker1>Actually, what always comes to mind is the typical Machiavelli misquote, 00:24:32.585 --> 00:24:37.805 <v Speaker1>it's better to be feared than to be loved. 00:24:38.065 --> 00:24:42.465 <v Speaker1>Actually, he said you need both, but if you can have only one, 00:24:42.765 --> 00:24:46.545 <v Speaker1>it's better to be feared than to be loved. So you need both guys. 00:24:46.925 --> 00:24:50.865 <v Speaker1>More love in the boardroom, you dirty minds. 00:24:53.625 --> 00:25:02.065 <v Speaker0>I mean, that's why this is provocative, and I would like to take away all the red hearts from that. 00:25:02.065 --> 00:25:09.245 <v Speaker0>But I think it is more, and I would sort of disagree with Machiavelli, you need respect. 00:25:11.945 --> 00:25:19.025 <v Speaker0>But what you want as any kind of type of leader is you want to be able to tap 00:25:19.025 --> 00:25:22.425 <v Speaker0>into the full resources of all the people that you work with. 00:25:22.605 --> 00:25:24.665 <v Speaker0>And that is something that you can't force. 00:25:26.742 --> 00:25:32.542 <v Speaker0>So if you want someone to go the extra mile, if you want someone to give you 00:25:32.542 --> 00:25:37.322 <v Speaker0>120% or 150% of their time and energy, 00:25:37.922 --> 00:25:41.862 <v Speaker0>they will have to give that by their free will. 00:25:42.522 --> 00:25:48.302 <v Speaker0>Otherwise, they won't give it long term. They will do it for some time if it's 00:25:48.302 --> 00:25:52.102 <v Speaker0>purely transactional, and then they will leave for somewhere where they get 00:25:52.102 --> 00:25:54.502 <v Speaker0>paid more. They become mercenaries. 00:25:54.982 --> 00:25:58.522 <v Speaker0>There is no relationship. It's purely transactional. And that's, 00:25:58.742 --> 00:26:02.682 <v Speaker0>you know, when you have high engagement, it's no longer purely transactional. It's relational. 00:26:04.202 --> 00:26:11.882 <v Speaker1>You also talk about feed forward. Why is it more powerful than feedback in today's work culture? 00:26:12.302 --> 00:26:17.902 <v Speaker0>I would say you need both. You know, I'm not at all against feedback. 00:26:18.222 --> 00:26:24.122 <v Speaker0>Feed forward is much lighter and it is forward looking. It is future driven. 00:26:24.122 --> 00:26:26.982 <v Speaker0>It is linked to potential. 00:26:27.142 --> 00:26:30.262 <v Speaker0>It's linked to growth and development. 00:26:30.642 --> 00:26:35.502 <v Speaker0>And that's why it is a hugely valuable complement to feedback. 00:26:36.362 --> 00:26:39.962 <v Speaker0>It is also easier to give. It's easier to implement than feedback. 00:26:40.142 --> 00:26:44.202 <v Speaker0>Feedback, you can do so many things wrong in feedback. So you really need to 00:26:44.202 --> 00:26:46.142 <v Speaker0>learn it. You need to teach your people. 00:26:46.262 --> 00:26:50.602 <v Speaker0>You need to train your people to give proper feedback that is useful and helpful 00:26:50.602 --> 00:26:51.842 <v Speaker0>and it builds performance. 00:26:52.122 --> 00:26:56.822 <v Speaker0>Feed Forward will always do that. Feed forward will help you build performance, 00:26:56.822 --> 00:27:02.542 <v Speaker0>will help you instill a paradigm of excellence in your organization. 00:27:02.542 --> 00:27:07.622 <v Speaker0>It will improve solution focus and solution capabilities. So there's a lot of, 00:27:07.622 --> 00:27:11.822 <v Speaker0>um, a lot of great, um, benefits of feed forward. 00:27:12.162 --> 00:27:12.862 <v Speaker1>Mm-hmm. 00:27:14.634 --> 00:27:22.014 <v Speaker1>How do you help companies diagnose their culture in a way that's objective and not fluffy? 00:27:22.294 --> 00:27:26.494 <v Speaker1>I assume you first do a net promoter score and then? 00:27:27.614 --> 00:27:34.594 <v Speaker0>Well, then what that enables you to do is to actually get a status of this is where we are. 00:27:34.814 --> 00:27:38.214 <v Speaker0>And the good thing about net promoter score is that you can actually benchmark 00:27:38.214 --> 00:27:39.494 <v Speaker0>yourself against others. 00:27:40.114 --> 00:27:46.894 <v Speaker0>So you know where you are in relationship perhaps to similar companies that 00:27:46.894 --> 00:27:49.794 <v Speaker0>you want to compare yourself with. 00:27:50.534 --> 00:27:56.354 <v Speaker0>And that means that you have a baseline that you can then formulate objectives against. 00:27:57.914 --> 00:28:02.934 <v Speaker0>So that's the first thing that we do. When we look at the results from the survey, 00:28:03.174 --> 00:28:05.314 <v Speaker0>the next step is to say, where do we want to go? 00:28:06.014 --> 00:28:09.494 <v Speaker0>Where do we want to be in six months, 12 months, 18 months, 24 months? 00:28:09.614 --> 00:28:13.334 <v Speaker0>We don't have to look any further. We could say, okay, what's our five-year vision? 00:28:13.774 --> 00:28:17.434 <v Speaker0>That's possible. But then I would be very operative. I would say, 00:28:17.534 --> 00:28:19.474 <v Speaker0>okay, let's look at the next 12 months. 00:28:19.774 --> 00:28:22.674 <v Speaker0>What do we want to achieve and how do we get there? 00:28:23.534 --> 00:28:28.814 <v Speaker0>And then we define measures how to get there based on the responses that we get. 00:28:28.934 --> 00:28:32.974 <v Speaker1>Let me talk a little bit around my next question. And it's about the hidden 00:28:32.974 --> 00:28:36.674 <v Speaker1>cost of disengagement that most companies underestimate. 00:28:36.674 --> 00:28:42.874 <v Speaker1>So basically, if you do that thoroughly and well, get people more engaged, 00:28:43.054 --> 00:28:46.014 <v Speaker1>you will see KPIs going up. 00:28:46.154 --> 00:28:50.114 <v Speaker1>But what is the downside when you don't have engaged people? 00:28:50.194 --> 00:28:55.834 <v Speaker1>You can say basically all KPIs are going down, but do you have some experience 00:28:55.834 --> 00:28:59.074 <v Speaker1>of your limited experiments that you did? 00:28:59.074 --> 00:29:06.194 <v Speaker1>Which KPIs are going to improve by rule of thumb or something that people can 00:29:06.194 --> 00:29:11.914 <v Speaker1>get an idea of what they are underestimating with the bad company culture there? 00:29:12.614 --> 00:29:19.894 <v Speaker0>Well, for instance, let's take turnover, employee turnover. 00:29:20.474 --> 00:29:24.414 <v Speaker0>Employee turnover, there is some turnover that you want to have. 00:29:24.534 --> 00:29:25.754 <v Speaker0>You want to have some movement. 00:29:26.454 --> 00:29:31.614 <v Speaker0>But the unwanted turnover is something that costs companies huge amounts of money. 00:29:32.034 --> 00:29:37.994 <v Speaker0>And if you can reduce that, and that will reduce if you increase the number 00:29:37.994 --> 00:29:43.094 <v Speaker0>of highly engaged people, because they will not want to leave as easily as, 00:29:43.214 --> 00:29:46.594 <v Speaker0>as people who have not got any strong emotional connectedness. 00:29:47.414 --> 00:29:52.194 <v Speaker0>And so that is one that people underestimate the company companies underestimate 00:29:52.194 --> 00:29:59.634 <v Speaker0>how, because there is no line in the PNL for turnover, but they underestimate how much it costs them. 00:30:00.987 --> 00:30:07.187 <v Speaker0>Often what they do is they say, okay, how much money does the average person, 00:30:07.307 --> 00:30:09.927 <v Speaker0>do I pay the average person? What are my costs? 00:30:10.167 --> 00:30:16.087 <v Speaker0>And what I always challenge them with is do you actually hire an employee to 00:30:16.087 --> 00:30:21.587 <v Speaker0>just deliver the value that they cost? That would not be good business. 00:30:22.107 --> 00:30:30.787 <v Speaker0>Good business is you need to get a return of a minimum of two and a half times 00:30:30.787 --> 00:30:32.347 <v Speaker0>the investment that you give. 00:30:32.507 --> 00:30:40.507 <v Speaker0>So let's say someone makes 100,000 Euro and you have what we in German call 00:30:40.507 --> 00:30:46.987 <v Speaker0>another nice word, so all the other costs associated, another lovely German word, very long, 00:30:47.547 --> 00:30:52.867 <v Speaker0>all the other costs associated with the employment is usually between 25 and 00:30:52.867 --> 00:30:57.487 <v Speaker0>50%, depending on the number of benefits, et cetera, et cetera, that you get. 00:30:57.487 --> 00:31:03.767 <v Speaker1>We made add for our audience around 80, 85% of our audience is based in the Dach region. 00:31:03.987 --> 00:31:08.827 <v Speaker1>So nonetheless, we added for like the 20, 50,000 that are listening to this 00:31:08.827 --> 00:31:11.727 <v Speaker1>interview without knowing that. 00:31:11.887 --> 00:31:14.067 <v Speaker1>So there's social security in Germany. 00:31:14.247 --> 00:31:19.427 <v Speaker1>And most of it is split 50, 50 between employer and employee. 00:31:19.427 --> 00:31:24.887 <v Speaker1>That means if you pay an employee 5,000 euros, he'll have something like 500 00:31:24.887 --> 00:31:27.687 <v Speaker1>euros social security costs that you need to match. 00:31:29.147 --> 00:31:37.007 <v Speaker0>And the minimum loan-eben cost in Germany is 22.5%, but most companies have more. 00:31:37.247 --> 00:31:41.627 <v Speaker0>So let's say it's 50% just for simplicity's sake. 00:31:42.187 --> 00:31:51.187 <v Speaker0>Then if someone, let's say it's a complex job, so it takes you one year to get up to speed, right? 00:31:52.561 --> 00:31:57.581 <v Speaker0>You hire someone and from the day of hirement and the first day in the office 00:31:57.581 --> 00:32:02.381 <v Speaker0>until they are as high performing as their colleagues in the same job who've 00:32:02.381 --> 00:32:06.961 <v Speaker0>been there for two years, let's say it takes 12 months. Quite often it takes longer. 00:32:07.301 --> 00:32:12.381 <v Speaker0>Anybody who's in sales or whatever knows that. But let's be very simple. 00:32:13.241 --> 00:32:19.501 <v Speaker0>Then a lot of people would say, okay, then turnover of one person will be 150,000 euro. 00:32:20.121 --> 00:32:27.061 <v Speaker0>But that's not true because the minimum that you have to have is two and a half times that much. 00:32:27.601 --> 00:32:33.421 <v Speaker0>So two and a half times that much, you know, simple maths is 250,000, 00:32:33.701 --> 00:32:37.721 <v Speaker0>325,000 euro, right? That's the minimum. 00:32:38.041 --> 00:32:42.261 <v Speaker0>If you have a company where the turnover per capita is higher, 00:32:42.501 --> 00:32:46.041 <v Speaker0>like many software companies, whether it's 500,000, 750,000, 00:32:46.201 --> 00:32:49.181 <v Speaker0>1 million, you know, then it's that figure. 00:32:50.581 --> 00:32:56.301 <v Speaker0>That you need to calculate with. So if you have a 100-person company where you 00:32:56.301 --> 00:33:03.041 <v Speaker0>have 10% turnover at, let's say, $325,000 a person, 00:33:03.961 --> 00:33:06.141 <v Speaker0>that's $3.25 million a year. 00:33:09.207 --> 00:33:14.327 <v Speaker0>So if you can reduce that by 50%, you've saved half of that. 00:33:14.667 --> 00:33:19.047 <v Speaker0>You've saved 1.65 million. 00:33:20.647 --> 00:33:25.167 <v Speaker1>Let's give a short break to all the C-level executives and founders who are 00:33:25.167 --> 00:33:27.067 <v Speaker1>now doing some calculations in their head. 00:33:32.527 --> 00:33:38.207 <v Speaker0>And that's just one of the metrics. Another one would be sick leave, 00:33:38.227 --> 00:33:39.667 <v Speaker0>and you can do the same calculation. 00:33:40.687 --> 00:33:45.427 <v Speaker0>What's the average? You go to your HR department, you look up how many sick 00:33:45.427 --> 00:33:47.347 <v Speaker0>days do we have on average. 00:33:47.887 --> 00:33:55.227 <v Speaker0>In highly engaged companies, they're really low, and that is also a huge one. 00:33:55.707 --> 00:34:00.687 <v Speaker0>The biggest one, though, is if you're a growing company, and I know there are 00:34:00.687 --> 00:34:03.607 <v Speaker0>lots of startups listening here. 00:34:03.787 --> 00:34:07.427 <v Speaker0>If you're a growing company that grows double digit every year, 00:34:07.527 --> 00:34:09.827 <v Speaker0>and that's your business plan, that's how you're working. 00:34:09.967 --> 00:34:14.747 <v Speaker0>And you cannot realize that growth because of lack of staffing. 00:34:15.307 --> 00:34:21.747 <v Speaker0>Then if let's say you are growing by a business, you're growing your business 00:34:21.747 --> 00:34:26.167 <v Speaker0>by 10% a year, and you can only realize half of that growth. 00:34:27.027 --> 00:34:33.847 <v Speaker0>Well, the difference that the turnover and the profit you don't make is actually 00:34:33.847 --> 00:34:38.267 <v Speaker0>what it costs you not to have the right people on board. 00:34:39.247 --> 00:34:44.067 <v Speaker0>And the third metric is productivity. The people who are highly engaged are 00:34:44.067 --> 00:34:51.207 <v Speaker0>usually way more productive than the average productive people in a company. 00:34:52.467 --> 00:34:57.967 <v Speaker0>And I spoke to a CEO once and I said, oh, my assumption is that the highly engaged 00:34:57.967 --> 00:35:00.367 <v Speaker0>people are 20% more productive than the average. 00:35:00.467 --> 00:35:03.587 <v Speaker0>And he said, that's not true. It's a lot higher in my experience. 00:35:05.264 --> 00:35:09.324 <v Speaker0>It's a lot higher in my experience. McKinsey says that the top qualified people 00:35:09.324 --> 00:35:13.844 <v Speaker0>in a company make between 400% and 800% more, 00:35:14.064 --> 00:35:20.424 <v Speaker0>are 400% to 800% more productive than the average. Now, I think that's a little steep. 00:35:21.984 --> 00:35:28.624 <v Speaker0>I don't know exactly what they base their figures on, but take something between 50% and 100%. 00:35:29.304 --> 00:35:32.764 <v Speaker1>Paul Jay They base it on their daily rates, Otherwise, you cannot justify them. 00:35:32.904 --> 00:35:35.584 <v Speaker1>I'm sorry for my company. 00:35:39.684 --> 00:35:48.724 <v Speaker0>But I'm just giving examples. And when I work with management teams to understand the dynamic, 00:35:48.944 --> 00:35:55.604 <v Speaker0>the business dynamic of engagement, I usually use turnover and productivity 00:35:55.604 --> 00:36:03.844 <v Speaker0>as a sort of example because it kind of highlights A, the cost, but B, the potential. 00:36:04.944 --> 00:36:09.784 <v Speaker0>If you could drive productivity by 5 or 10 percentage points in your organization, 00:36:09.784 --> 00:36:12.064 <v Speaker0>what will that mean for you? 00:36:12.224 --> 00:36:15.944 <v Speaker0>And it means that investing in engagement is actually a business case. 00:36:15.944 --> 00:36:24.304 <v Speaker0>How much money do you need to invest to drive engagement is relatively modest 00:36:24.304 --> 00:36:27.244 <v Speaker0>in comparison to the potential gains that you have. 00:36:28.877 --> 00:36:34.257 <v Speaker0>Yes, it requires commitment, time, a certain budget, that's for sure, 00:36:34.397 --> 00:36:38.417 <v Speaker0>but the rewards are usually 10 to 20-fold. 00:36:38.677 --> 00:36:44.517 <v Speaker1>We've been talking a lot about KPIs, but psychological safety is everywhere in theory. 00:36:44.797 --> 00:36:49.697 <v Speaker1>How do you embed it, especially for your clients, how do you recommend they 00:36:49.697 --> 00:36:51.477 <v Speaker1>embed it in their daily operations? 00:36:51.937 --> 00:36:55.657 <v Speaker0>That's a good link to the second engagement booster behavior, 00:36:55.877 --> 00:36:59.977 <v Speaker0>which I call positive reinforcement. And positive reinforcement is not the same 00:36:59.977 --> 00:37:02.977 <v Speaker0>thing as simply telling someone, good job. 00:37:03.217 --> 00:37:06.137 <v Speaker0>You know, that's what some people think is positive reinforcement. 00:37:06.557 --> 00:37:14.377 <v Speaker0>Positive reinforcement means exactly that. It means linking as a leader or manager, 00:37:14.717 --> 00:37:19.257 <v Speaker0>you observe what are the psychological needs that people have. 00:37:19.957 --> 00:37:23.637 <v Speaker0>And the most basic one is psychological safety. 00:37:24.917 --> 00:37:31.177 <v Speaker0>I mean, the whole notion of psychological safety came up through a research 00:37:31.177 --> 00:37:35.777 <v Speaker0>project that Google did with Harvard University, Amy Edmondson. 00:37:36.157 --> 00:37:40.317 <v Speaker0>The project was called Project Aristotle. And what Google wanted to find out 00:37:40.317 --> 00:37:48.537 <v Speaker0>together with Amy Edmondson was what factors drive high performance in teams. 00:37:49.397 --> 00:37:53.237 <v Speaker0>And I isolated a number of factors and the most basic factors, 00:37:53.417 --> 00:37:55.737 <v Speaker0>the foundational factor was psychological safety. 00:37:56.117 --> 00:37:59.917 <v Speaker0>And if you take a step back, it's easy to understand why, because if you feel 00:37:59.917 --> 00:38:05.257 <v Speaker0>safe psychologically, you will share whatever is on your mind. 00:38:05.257 --> 00:38:07.137 <v Speaker0>You will not be afraid to make mistakes. 00:38:08.057 --> 00:38:16.297 <v Speaker0>That will drive you. As a team, you will find out if things go wrong, much, much better. 00:38:16.537 --> 00:38:23.817 <v Speaker0>Trust will go up. people will be able to share both their strengths and weaknesses and teams can form. 00:38:26.456 --> 00:38:29.676 <v Speaker0>Performance goes up but that's the basic basis 00:38:29.676 --> 00:38:33.056 <v Speaker0>and if you manage by fear going back 00:38:33.056 --> 00:38:36.116 <v Speaker0>to our discussion before people will not feel safe 00:38:36.116 --> 00:38:44.016 <v Speaker0>so they will hide um they will either withdraw you know fight flight or freeze 00:38:44.016 --> 00:38:48.436 <v Speaker0>you know those are the those are the results of if you're scared if you're if 00:38:48.436 --> 00:38:55.296 <v Speaker0>you're in shock if you're in fear and you will not give your full potential to your team. 00:38:56.096 --> 00:39:03.836 <v Speaker1>Far from it. I see. Can you explain how the Kano model applies to employer branding? 00:39:05.196 --> 00:39:09.236 <v Speaker0>The Kano model is a model from customer satisfaction. 00:39:09.776 --> 00:39:16.316 <v Speaker0>So it's a Japanese model. Kano was a Japanese, I think, engineer. 00:39:16.896 --> 00:39:24.836 <v Speaker0>And he said that there are three factors that constitute customer satisfaction. 00:39:25.296 --> 00:39:31.016 <v Speaker0>The basic factors, which is basically, let's say you have a product like a washing 00:39:31.016 --> 00:39:39.576 <v Speaker0>powder, and the washing powder has a basic thing that it should do, a basic job to be done. 00:39:39.756 --> 00:39:42.076 <v Speaker0>And that job to be done is to clean something. 00:39:43.516 --> 00:39:50.276 <v Speaker0>So if washing powder doesn't clean, that basic factor is actually violated, 00:39:50.896 --> 00:39:55.096 <v Speaker0>and people will be unhappy with the performance of the washing powder. 00:39:56.296 --> 00:40:03.796 <v Speaker0>You cannot substitute that basic service that the washing powder gives with 00:40:03.796 --> 00:40:11.236 <v Speaker0>something on top like, oh, it washes at 30 degrees as well as 60, 60 degrees. 00:40:11.236 --> 00:40:13.936 <v Speaker0>If it doesn't wash, it doesn't matter. 00:40:14.816 --> 00:40:19.716 <v Speaker0>Now, let's say you have a washing powder that is doing a really good job. 00:40:19.856 --> 00:40:24.756 <v Speaker0>It washes perfectly. And in addition, you can actually turn down the heat on 00:40:24.756 --> 00:40:26.816 <v Speaker0>your washing machine. So you save some energy. 00:40:27.316 --> 00:40:30.616 <v Speaker0>That is a performance factor. 00:40:33.621 --> 00:40:38.241 <v Speaker0>So that performance factor will actually differentiate yourself at least for 00:40:38.241 --> 00:40:39.701 <v Speaker0>some time from the competition. 00:40:42.261 --> 00:40:47.621 <v Speaker0>After a while, others will adopt and we'll say, okay, and then becomes maybe even a basic factor. 00:40:48.161 --> 00:40:53.681 <v Speaker0>But the key thing in a, in a product or a brand that you want to achieve is 00:40:53.681 --> 00:40:58.761 <v Speaker0>the kind of excitement factor that people are excited about your product or brand. 00:40:59.421 --> 00:41:05.101 <v Speaker0>And that is something that's not easy to achieve, but if you achieve it, 00:41:05.261 --> 00:41:09.681 <v Speaker0>you have more competitive insulation, you have less price sensitivity, 00:41:09.681 --> 00:41:13.581 <v Speaker0>and people are excited about your product or brand. 00:41:13.761 --> 00:41:19.321 <v Speaker0>They will be linked to it. They will not easily switch, and they will stay with 00:41:19.321 --> 00:41:27.621 <v Speaker0>you because you continuously surprise them and excite them. And that's the same thing. 00:41:27.821 --> 00:41:31.841 <v Speaker0>If you do the reframe now, okay, let's say the, the, the, the, 00:41:32.101 --> 00:41:33.901 <v Speaker0>the job is actually the product. 00:41:34.441 --> 00:41:39.921 <v Speaker0>Um, the question for you as the product designer, as the manager or HR department 00:41:39.921 --> 00:41:44.361 <v Speaker0>or people, culture department, whatever, how can we decide, design the culture 00:41:44.361 --> 00:41:49.421 <v Speaker0>with the job is in, in a way that people aren't just. 00:41:51.005 --> 00:41:58.325 <v Speaker0>Basically satisfied with the pay they get the safety they have as a basic factors right, 00:41:59.125 --> 00:42:03.905 <v Speaker0>um all the all the all the benefits that they get the performance factors but 00:42:03.905 --> 00:42:08.905 <v Speaker0>how can we get create the kind of excitement that people feel emotionally connected 00:42:08.905 --> 00:42:14.225 <v Speaker0>that they feel they have friends at work they have a place where they can be 00:42:14.225 --> 00:42:18.265 <v Speaker0>they can belong They can fulfill their dreams, their mission. 00:42:19.525 --> 00:42:24.205 <v Speaker0>They can feel that they are part of something bigger than themselves. 00:42:25.185 --> 00:42:31.505 <v Speaker0>Those are potential excitement drivers that actually create that kind of emotional, 00:42:31.865 --> 00:42:33.225 <v Speaker0>high emotional connectedness. 00:42:33.405 --> 00:42:37.005 <v Speaker0>So that's how the Kano model kind of relates to the Net Promoter Score model 00:42:37.005 --> 00:42:42.385 <v Speaker0>as well, because usually you find those excitement factors with the nines and tens. 00:42:42.385 --> 00:42:47.105 <v Speaker1>I had to smile when you talked about jobs to be done because you are in company 00:42:47.105 --> 00:42:52.065 <v Speaker1>of Tony Ulwick, the inventor of jobs to be done, made famous by Clayton Christensen. 00:42:52.085 --> 00:42:55.385 <v Speaker1>We link down here in the show notes to his interview. 00:42:55.765 --> 00:43:02.165 <v Speaker0>I love Clayton Christensen's description of jobs to be done. 00:43:02.405 --> 00:43:07.545 <v Speaker0>You know that video where he talks about the milkshakes? 00:43:07.805 --> 00:43:09.245 <v Speaker0>Yep. Yeah. 00:43:11.045 --> 00:43:17.865 <v Speaker1>I'll try to link this here down in the show notes. 00:43:18.905 --> 00:43:22.985 <v Speaker0>So you could say, obviously, what's the job to be done with a job, right? 00:43:23.325 --> 00:43:28.405 <v Speaker0>What's the job to be done for the customer, i.e. 00:43:28.405 --> 00:43:32.785 <v Speaker0>The employee? You know, you as a, you as an entrepreneur or as a manager or 00:43:32.785 --> 00:43:36.505 <v Speaker0>as a, as a director, you will, you will, you will, yeah, well, 00:43:36.645 --> 00:43:40.105 <v Speaker0>the job to be done is that they perform a good job for the company, 00:43:40.325 --> 00:43:42.425 <v Speaker0>but turn it around and say, okay, front table, 00:43:42.765 --> 00:43:47.105 <v Speaker0>change the perspective to a customer perspective and not to a supplier perspective 00:43:47.105 --> 00:43:52.465 <v Speaker0>from, from a supplier to a customer perspective and say, what is the job to be done for, um, 00:43:53.025 --> 00:43:55.025 <v Speaker0>my potential employee that they want to attract. 00:43:56.479 --> 00:43:58.239 <v Speaker0>And it changes the way you think. 00:43:59.959 --> 00:44:05.219 <v Speaker1>How do you address founders who say we're too small to care about culture yet? 00:44:05.539 --> 00:44:12.199 <v Speaker0>I think that's a fallacy. I mean, that's as if you would say, 00:44:12.219 --> 00:44:19.659 <v Speaker0>I want to build a house and I'm too early on in my building process to lay the foundation. 00:44:22.799 --> 00:44:28.099 <v Speaker0>I would say that if you don't think about that from day one, 00:44:28.559 --> 00:44:32.279 <v Speaker0>you will have a hard time because then you will have to change something again. 00:44:32.459 --> 00:44:36.199 <v Speaker0>I mean, you have to change the whole setup perhaps. I think you need a vision 00:44:36.199 --> 00:44:41.999 <v Speaker0>for the culture you need to drive your business model. 00:44:42.859 --> 00:44:49.079 <v Speaker0>So it is one of those strategic decisions that you have to make early on. 00:44:49.659 --> 00:44:55.839 <v Speaker0>Uh, to ask yourself what kind of business, what kind of environment do I want 00:44:55.839 --> 00:45:01.319 <v Speaker0>to create and what, and I, I would be very, I would be very business oriented. 00:45:01.499 --> 00:45:06.159 <v Speaker0>You know, what's the business environment that is best suited for my business 00:45:06.159 --> 00:45:13.059 <v Speaker0>model to achieve my vision, my goals, my business objectives, um, 00:45:15.119 --> 00:45:22.539 <v Speaker0>and really try to ask your potential employees, the ones that you would love 00:45:22.539 --> 00:45:27.339 <v Speaker0>to hire, what kind of environment I need to be at the best. 00:45:30.552 --> 00:45:35.412 <v Speaker0>And then you then you build the culture accordingly begin with the end in mind you know, 00:45:37.712 --> 00:45:42.952 <v Speaker0>that would be my take you know i think i think it's you can't start too early 00:45:42.952 --> 00:45:50.552 <v Speaker0>um to to think about culture and that's something that good kind of incubators would tell you you know, 00:45:51.112 --> 00:45:58.672 <v Speaker0>acquaintance of mine um jörg reinbold of of of the um apx incubator in berlin 00:45:58.672 --> 00:46:04.552 <v Speaker0>i mean he's a great fan of helping people, helping small, 00:46:04.812 --> 00:46:14.092 <v Speaker0>young startups get over the first hurdles, you know, and he's a great fan of 00:46:14.092 --> 00:46:17.012 <v Speaker0>creating a strong culture from day one. 00:46:18.752 --> 00:46:25.652 <v Speaker1>Speaking about culture and soft skills and leadership, what would you say with 00:46:25.652 --> 00:46:29.472 <v Speaker1>soft skill in leadership is now a hard edge for competitiveness. 00:46:30.652 --> 00:46:38.452 <v Speaker0>Well, I think that excellent listening skills will give you an edge in many, many ways. 00:46:39.452 --> 00:46:42.932 <v Speaker0>You want to drive innovation? Be a good listener. 00:46:43.972 --> 00:46:51.552 <v Speaker0>You want to find the secret of fast-growing, of fast-tracking your growth? 00:46:52.372 --> 00:46:55.312 <v Speaker0>Be a good listener. Train your 00:46:55.312 --> 00:47:00.312 <v Speaker0>listening skills. You want to have high engagement, build that muscle. 00:47:02.372 --> 00:47:11.352 <v Speaker0>It's a huge lever that you have in building business. 00:47:14.312 --> 00:47:19.912 <v Speaker1>Christian? Yeah. It was a pleasure having you. 00:47:20.172 --> 00:47:25.612 <v Speaker1>We originally envisioned this to be one podcast, but we are now recording for 15 minutes. 00:47:25.612 --> 00:47:31.272 <v Speaker1>And I think we'll take a short break and make this a two-episode interview for 00:47:31.272 --> 00:47:37.192 <v Speaker1>the very simple reason that the way to work of most of our listeners is not that long. 00:47:37.692 --> 00:47:40.212 <v Speaker1>Would you agree to come back to the next recording? 00:47:40.652 --> 00:47:47.612 <v Speaker0>I'd love to. I'd love to. I appreciate your questions and being able to hopefully 00:47:47.612 --> 00:47:53.932 <v Speaker0>answer some questions that are relevant for the audience. That's the key thing. 00:47:54.712 --> 00:47:57.972 <v Speaker1>Great. Thank you very much. It was a pleasure having you as a guest. 00:47:58.132 --> 00:47:58.632 <v Speaker0>Thank you. 00:47:58.960 --> 00:48:28.717 <v Music>