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How difficult is it to put on a music festival these days, anyway? · The Price of Music

0:08
Hello and welcome to The Price of Music, brought to you by
0:11
Music Ally, the show that's fascinated by all the fun and
0:14
games and finances of the music world, as explained each week by
0:18
me, Steve Lemack and Kim Stuart Dredge.
0:20
It's a slightly different episode for you this week
0:23
dedicated to live music festivals.
0:27
They provide us with all kinds of vivid memories while also
0:31
giving stages for to everybody from the world's biggest stars
0:35
to the best of your local bands. But just how difficult is it
0:39
staging a festival these days? And increasingly, what are the
0:43
challenges facing festival promoters?
0:46
With a number of cancellations and postponements once again
0:50
this year, what does the future look like for the UK festival
0:54
circuits? We went to John Rostrum, who is
0:57
CEO of the Association of Independent Festivals, who I
1:01
know well, I've known for for a while since John's Day's Running
1:05
Soon festival in Cardiff, but also of course now via my role
1:10
as Chair of Life, the live music industry trade body which AIF is
1:15
a member of. And well, because of that,
1:17
because I didn't, I didn't want to lead him down a certain
1:21
certain roads of enquiry or make him feel uncomfortable as I was
1:27
sitting there scouring at him. Gatling has him during the
1:30
interview if he wasn't holding the company line.
1:33
So because of all this, we decided it would be better to
1:37
get a completely fresh perspective on the subject of
1:40
festivals. Which is why, as I quietly
1:44
recuse myself, Stuart, it's over to you.
1:48
Thanks Steve, and hello John, welcome to the Price of Music.
1:52
Thanks for having me. Yeah, Steve's not here anymore.
1:55
We can say anything we like about him for the next half an
1:57
hour, but no. But thank you.
2:00
When Steve and I've been talking about doing this interview for a
2:02
while, we, we've had so many questions, I think because we've
2:05
both been talking and thinking about the festivals and what's
2:08
going on. And obviously we're both
2:09
veterans of going to festivals. So even after boiling down all
2:13
the questions, there's a lot to get through today, but I think
2:15
it's going to be interesting. So thank you.
2:18
But I guess I started with you because you are the CEO of the
2:22
Association of Independent Festivals.
2:23
But how did you get to this role?
2:25
I mean, if it's a Marvel style origin story, how did you end up
2:29
what you're doing now? Well, most of my life this did
2:35
the condensed version. Most of my life I've been a
2:37
promoter, you know, started putting on my own nights.
2:41
It was DJ putting on club nights, but also then started
2:45
putting on bands and I did lots of other jobs along the way.
2:49
But that's the one that really defines me.
2:51
I was down in Cardiff and yeah, that was a big part of what I
2:57
did. And one of the along the way,
2:59
one of the things that I did was set up a a multi venue music
3:03
festival called Soon, which is whilst Rich Sound with my friend
3:06
Hugh Stevens, which is probably the first time I met Steve Lamac
3:10
Through through through Hugh and we put that back on.
3:14
I think it's 2007 we started and actually so, so that was my I've
3:20
been a big festival goer, but never run a festival and and
3:25
that was my way into into running a festival.
3:29
I gave. I got a bit.
3:30
Disillusioned with music and the music industry and was moving
3:36
into some other, some more interested in other areas.
3:38
I think I was interested getting more interested in strategy and
3:41
policy and the things I thought could really make a difference
3:45
outside of putting shows on. So it sold up what I was doing,
3:49
I think around 2018, and decided to leave the music industry.
3:54
And I went off and I learned how to make timber frame buildings
3:59
and I learned how to climb trees properly and chop them down
4:02
because I was living. I'd moved to a rural place.
4:05
But yeah, found my way back into music mostly through writing,
4:09
funding bids for people. And that brought me.
4:13
And the other thing I was doing as I'd left promoting was I'd
4:17
set up this thing with a group of promoters that was becoming
4:19
what is now the Association of Independent Promoters.
4:22
So I was very interested in in those communities of people.
4:27
And that kept me in touch with the AIF, with Paul Reed who was
4:30
here. And I used to have a regular
4:32
catch up with Paul and I knew he was leaving.
4:34
He'd be the first and only manager here.
4:37
We had a little catch up call and he said to me, why aren't
4:40
you going for the job, John? And that was my cue really I to
4:45
go actually, yeah, why? Why don't I go for the job?
4:47
So I went for the job and I got it.
4:49
Here I am. Goodness and kind of good.
4:51
Kind of encouraging to know that the head of an industry body
4:54
also can make timber frame buildings because when the
4:58
floods come, that would be useful.
5:01
But I guess, I guess, I mean, I guess the people who maybe don't
5:04
know the AIF and what you do, I mean, what give us a brief item
5:07
of what it was set up and, and how many festivals you represent
5:10
and I guess the the kind of work you're doing at the
5:12
organization. AIF.
5:14
Started, I know roughly what happened was around about 2008,
5:20
you had these sort of what we call back then boutique
5:22
festivals and now I think we just call them festivals.
5:25
And you had I think the instigator was robbed a bank and
5:28
his manager friend Ben Turner, Rob was running best of all,
5:33
which was probably a quite a size end, but we're still an
5:36
outsider and he got a few people together.
5:40
I think there was Field Day, it was run by Tom and some other
5:43
people in London. I think end of the road
5:46
possibly, I think WOMAD, possibly there's a number of
5:49
people and they got together somewhere in London.
5:50
And what I heard was that there were sort of rivals, but they
5:54
knew each other through the music.
5:55
And they got together and they started chatting about what it
5:59
was like to put their events on because these events were
6:02
growing and getting more and more popular and they were doing
6:05
whatever a lot of people do. They had no idea what they were
6:07
doing and. And so they.
6:10
Sat in a room and started realizing they had lots more in
6:13
common than divided them and they just thought we need to do
6:16
that again. And and Rob had and Ben had a
6:20
record label Sunday Best. So they were a member of the
6:23
Association of Independent Music, which is, you know, the
6:25
big you know, who AIM are looking after all the
6:28
independent labels in the UK. And a conversation emerged with
6:32
them to say, I don't know where it came from, but what happened
6:36
was Alison, who ran AIM set up, kind of said AIM can help you
6:42
set up this group. And she organised or that team
6:45
Claire Lara, they organised the meetings secretariat, they
6:48
helped get people together and they sort of ushered people into
6:51
a room two or three times a year to, to to talk.
6:54
And those that group of festivals grew.
6:57
And I had my first interaction with AIF then as a young girl
7:01
promoter. So back 2011 I saw a poster
7:04
train station with all of these festivals on that I loved.
7:07
And you know, we'd say go to a festival this summer or
7:09
something, use the train. And there was this AIF badge and
7:14
I was like, what's that? And I found it what it was and I
7:17
applied and I joined the AIF and I went to London at some point
7:19
and there was maybe 20 people around the table.
7:21
There was robbed a bank, one of my heroes.
7:23
And there was WOMAD and there was Kate and Sarah who ran tram
7:28
lines, who really, you know, here's another.
7:31
They were multi venue festival at a time.
7:33
And I was a multi venue and they, I was thinking about going
7:36
outdoors and they were thinking about coming.
7:38
They were thinking. So I think about coming indoors.
7:40
They were thinking about going outdoors.
7:41
So, so yeah, it was this brilliant group of people.
7:44
And yeah. And that is what AIF sort of
7:48
still is really. The, the, the core bit for me is
7:51
those numbers have grown. When Paul left, I've been in the
7:54
job about three years nearly. There was 93 festivals grown to
7:58
there's now about 150 a 152, I think.
8:03
So a big part of what we do is the same is sort of getting
8:07
people in a room, except now they're in a room every day in a
8:11
WhatsApp group and they're, they are talking and sharing and
8:15
every day they're talking about something.
8:16
Sometimes it's like, I need some help with this.
8:18
I've got a problem. Well, how do you do this or
8:20
where do you go for that? And they ask each of the
8:23
questions and they and they mostly help each other.
8:25
And then we listen in on those conversations and we bring them
8:28
together multiple times per year.
8:31
And through those conversations, we then work out what are the
8:34
themes, What do we what, what's, what's the problem here or a
8:38
solution here that maybe they all need training in or they
8:41
need a new resource in. So you're kind of constantly
8:44
listening to, to what, to what I call stakeholders and try and
8:47
work out what they need. But the biggest part of the job
8:51
now, which was, was emerged because of COVID was, was
8:55
relations with government. You know, the music sector
8:59
generally didn't have a relationship much with, with the
9:01
live music sector didn't have much relationship with the
9:04
government prior to COVID and festivals definitely didn't.
9:07
And now it's a big part of my, my working week, either taking
9:13
some of these stories to the government saying we need your
9:16
help with this, or the government coming to us as they
9:19
come to other associations saying, you know, like recently
9:22
this year, we're going to look at licensing.
9:25
We're going to, we're going to do a licensing Sprint in six
9:27
weeks. What do you need?
9:29
And so you've got to quite quickly respond to that, find
9:33
out what people need, talk to government, get in the room.
9:35
And, and as is emerging from that, in fact, I think today,
9:39
you know, there's a call for evidence to to make some huge
9:41
sweeping, very positive changes for licensing.
9:44
And that all happens because there's a trade body you can
9:47
call, because they can call me and they wouldn't call 150
9:51
different festivals. I'd love to have that job.
9:55
So I guess great. And I think one of the things
9:58
I've, I've known that doing the choice, but you do put out
10:00
research and you put out stats and you tell people how things
10:03
are going. And I guess that's one of the
10:04
big topics today is we're now what we know in October.
10:07
So there's still stuff happening, but the summer
10:10
festival season is done. Yeah.
10:12
What is your take on, I guess this year's festivals in the UK?
10:16
What was good, what was challenging?
10:18
Like what's the picture of what's happened this year to
10:20
festivals in the UK? This is the I show.
10:23
This is the. My third year in the job for
10:25
coming out, my third summer. It's the first year where the
10:28
sentence has not been, we're worried about sales.
10:31
This went wrong, that went wrong and we lost loads of money.
10:34
And the sentence is now a lot more positive.
10:40
It's, you know, a lot of our members sold out or sold more
10:43
tickets than they've ever sold before or sold out quicker.
10:46
They had really, really great events, like they just delivered
10:50
great events and, and those people having the best events,
10:53
you know, which is very subjected to them, but they just
10:55
go, that's the best we've ever done.
10:58
And they've had good spend from customers.
11:01
So they, the most of the sentence is that, but there's a
11:04
bit at the end, which is, but we lost some money.
11:07
So, and that's the hard bit that we're now looking at.
11:09
So you've got people who sold out, 20,000 people, 30,000
11:13
people, lots of people, you know, 20,000 is it surprisingly
11:16
quite amazed at how many festivals are actually at
11:18
20,000. When I came into the job, I
11:20
thought it might be half a dozen and there's, there's so many,
11:23
but you've got people selling out.
11:25
But because of the costs, because of how things have
11:29
changed that we're walking away. Some of them, somebody was on
11:33
the phone two weeks ago, they sold out, they lost 2000 lbs.
11:37
So you're putting a show on that's costing you between
11:39
something like 2 to £4,000,000 to put on and then at the end
11:44
and selling out and having a really great time.
11:46
But then at the end of it, you're losing 2 grand and that's
11:49
a very, those numbers don't makes sense.
11:51
And that's a problem because we, although people do it for all
11:56
kinds of reasons, They also need to turn a living and, and it
12:00
needs to be fun. And those things are not
12:04
happening. So the, the, the, the line's not
12:05
there for them. The, the, the parents aren't
12:07
there for them. But then if you're sweating
12:09
about that, then you're losing the fun.
12:11
And that's going to make some people stop putting their events
12:13
on. So that's the bit that we're
12:14
worried about. But but, but much more positive,
12:18
you know, in the independent sector, yeah and people for this
12:21
year coming out, you know, obviously they go on sale
12:23
straight away and they're flying again.
12:25
Bloodstock just sold out on the weekend already 40,000 people
12:29
for next year sold out. It's.
12:31
Interesting, because I suppose we've I always get, I always get
12:35
kind of confused about how long it is since the COVID lockdowns
12:38
because it feels simultaneously in age and yesterday.
12:40
But I guess at the height of that people were worried about,
12:43
well, what's going to happen in the future?
12:44
Are people going to go out again?
12:46
So it must be quite exciting for and encourage everyone that that
12:49
actually they are setting out, people are coming to festivals,
12:52
that two year blip when everyone was locked in their houses,
12:55
which is over working a bit. Then the in terms of the the
12:59
football that has come back, I guess, yeah.
13:03
Yeah, I think this year is the first year where we feel like
13:06
it's the evidence is there. You weren't you mentioned before
13:09
I like data. I like data and evidence because
13:12
you're dealing with lots of festivals and a lot of people.
13:14
And actually what you do need is the data.
13:16
Somebody's telling you something.
13:17
It is the data. What's the data show?
13:19
And now the data shows it. Like you can see they're selling
13:22
out for the first time. They're selling out earlier than
13:25
they've ever sold. They're selling more tickets.
13:27
All of that, you know, is really, really positive.
13:31
In previous years, they've not had that.
13:33
But there's also been other things that are caught up in
13:35
that long tail of COVID and Brexit, which so there was a
13:39
rush out. But there was also a great
13:41
example is the festival Field manoeuvres that sold out, you
13:46
know, as COVID was about to hit. And so recycled their tickets
13:48
and kept saying, you know, if you want to sell it, you can
13:50
sell it. So arrived back in 2022,
13:53
completely sold out. But a third of the people then
13:56
didn't turn up and the festival nearly nearly disappeared.
13:59
So you had all of these weird things that were going on for a
14:02
couple of years. Where's Gen.
14:03
Z gone, Gen. Z gone.
14:06
That's all gone. It's clear people really love
14:09
festivals and they're they're going and they're and another
14:12
thing, I don't know what else has changed.
14:14
You know, there's certainly payment plans, which we
14:16
introduced, you know, hugely because of coming out of COVID
14:20
and we're worried about cost of living crisis, but that habit
14:23
too, you know, the take up on payment plans is, is enormous.
14:26
So yeah, people, people love them.
14:30
I do look at some of the things and obviously I look at what are
14:32
the trade associations are talking and, and keep reading a
14:35
lot about the demise of nightclubs and there's a lot of
14:38
worry and panic about that. And we find that it's really
14:41
hard to read because what we're seeing in the fields is huge
14:45
demand for electronic music. So, so if you were sitting in
14:49
the world of electronic music, you'd probably be, I don't know,
14:52
you might be happy that like people are still really wanting
14:54
to dance. It's just they've moved from
14:55
inside to outside. But it's that doesn't, you know,
14:59
unfortunately take away from the horror for the nightclub owners.
15:03
But we're seeing that, you know, so hugely popular and the
15:06
biggest sort of area of growth. Definitely.
15:09
I mean, no, I guess another parallel to what's happening
15:10
with venues. And we talk a lot about venues
15:12
closing down and the campaign about that, about how many, how
15:14
many venues are closed this year, how many at risk?
15:17
And I, I've seen those stats around festivals in the past,
15:19
they've been concerned about how many were shutting down, how
15:21
many were never coming back. Have we reached, have we reached
15:24
a better place now than that? Are you not seeing so many
15:28
shutdowns or festivals at risk of not coming back next year?
15:31
Or is that still something you're seeing people concerned
15:33
about with the costs in there? I, I am pretty much not worried
15:39
about it now because when I, yeah, when I start to roll,
15:43
somebody start, Somebody said to me, this goes back to
15:45
evidencing, somebody said to me, there's a lot of festivals seem
15:47
to be cancelling. And I was new in the job.
15:49
I was like, well, are there like, what's the, you know,
15:51
yeah, what what's the normal number?
15:52
And nobody knew what a number was.
15:55
So I started counting and we discovered that.
15:58
At least 96 festivals fell during the pandemic.
16:01
And then in 2023, that first year in in in the job, 33 fell
16:05
that year. So we had a number because I was
16:08
going to government saying. Lots of festivals cancelling and
16:10
they asked me a very sensible question like, well, how many
16:12
normally cancel? Turned out nobody knew.
16:14
So we had, we had a #33 78 fell in 2024.
16:19
And that's when you know, you know, I can't remember when, but
16:22
early spring we were already at the number for 2023.
16:25
That having that data, having those numbers, being able to say
16:29
this is the number from last year, this is where we're at
16:31
now. That, that was a key moment for
16:34
us because then everybody started paying attention, like
16:38
really paying attention and, and check some changes in support
16:41
came for the festival sector on the back of those numbers.
16:45
This year we're on 42, I think, or 43 actually black beers just
16:48
cancelled. So it's not going to get to the
16:52
high numbers. You know, we might get to 50.
16:55
And like I said, Joe, I think a lot of people who've gone now
16:58
really have gone. And you're always going to have
17:00
some festivals that go like we, we not only track the
17:02
cancellations, but we track why. And you will have the rogue
17:06
promoter, you'll have the person who didn't get their licence
17:09
application in. You know, there was one company
17:12
and one company this year actually took down, I think 10
17:14
or 11 festivals in one go. One independent company.
17:18
Yeah, one and C So, so that, that's quite extraordinary.
17:21
That's quite unique. So it's always sad to see
17:24
festivals go, but I think those worst days are over at the
17:29
moment. But what I'm worried about is
17:31
the ones that are trading right now, will they continue?
17:34
Like will they be making the money to continue or will they
17:37
be happy enough to continue? Yeah, like you say, it sounds
17:41
like you mentioned the idea of the the strain of putting on the
17:44
event and you only make 2, you lose 2 grand at the end.
17:46
I guess there can be some employee that something maybe in
17:49
theory be able to carry on going.
17:51
It sells out. But if the people who are behind
17:53
it are putting all those hours in, are just tired, tired or
17:56
stressed, then it could stop for that reason.
17:59
Couldn't like the human cost I guess.
18:01
Yeah, and there's festivals, some of the festivals set up to
18:03
raise money for charities or around a particular cause.
18:07
You know, and if you're not doing that either, you know, I
18:12
mean, there's a lovely little example, there's one called Test
18:14
Fest, which is set up to raise awareness for testicular cancer.
18:18
So it's not about ideally it raises money, but also it's
18:21
about people being in a space and doing things and engaging
18:24
particularly men around testicular cancer when they're
18:28
struggling financially to make it all work.
18:31
The, the, the trustees are saying, why are we doing this?
18:34
You know, maybe we should just turn up at the supermarket with
18:36
our. Banners and Sue, who runs it, is
18:40
so passionate about festivals and she's like, no, because this
18:43
is so different. You're bringing all the people
18:45
that wouldn't you're, you're catching all these people who
18:48
come to have a good time and you're adding this thing to them
18:50
and look at the response. So they get so much engagement
18:53
around their charity. They get so many people who who
18:56
choose to volunteer as a result of being a festival.
18:58
That they wouldn't get in these other places.
19:00
And she's had. To fight really hard.
19:02
But she's a classic case, like she was going into this year and
19:05
I hope she doesn't mind me saying, you know, really worried
19:07
that they wouldn't get over the line.
19:09
And then she was messaging. It's one of the loveliest thing
19:11
about the WhatsApp group from the event going.
19:13
We just had the best event we've ever had now, not necessarily
19:16
financially, but but creatively as a show and as a as to reach
19:22
their sort of objectives of making people aware about this
19:25
thing. So yeah, there's a lot of test
19:28
fests type people out there, you know, really important to to the
19:31
culture of the UK and. Like you say, that energy is so
19:33
important for them to go into go again next year to have that.
19:36
I mean, saying that we've talked about on the podcast quite a lot
19:38
is then the other things that feels like it's become a big
19:40
issue this year maybe than before is the whole, I guess the
19:43
controversy around politics and certain bookings.
19:46
So we've talked about Bob Villain, for example, Mary
19:49
Wallopers, like events at festivals where a band has
19:52
either said something on stage at the festival and there's been
19:55
trouble or they the festival has been told you can't book this
19:59
artist otherwise you'll lose, you won't get your licence.
20:02
Is that something? I mean, I, I don't know what
20:04
what often happens then is online because everyone online
20:07
is just kind of jumping to conclusions.
20:10
It's the festival promoters often get in neck, Oh, you
20:12
cancelled that artist. But I know it's often a much
20:16
more complicated story. It's not their decision.
20:18
It's other things. I mean, is that something that
20:19
you've seen on behalf of your members that?
20:21
This is something else they have to be aware of, that there's
20:24
this political discourse around who's playing and what they
20:26
might have said in the past and what they might say on stage, I
20:31
think. The.
20:32
The lens on things moves all the time, right?
20:35
So last year there was lots of people looking at, you know,
20:41
Barclays Bank sponsoring all the Live Nation shows and the yeah,
20:46
the lens was very much focused on that.
20:48
This year it moved to sort of political boycotting around sort
20:54
of international affairs. You know, those things will keep
20:57
moving. And yeah, you're touching upon,
20:59
you know, there were some particular examples, you know,
21:01
Catherine and Joe and Radar Festival, you know, were in a
21:06
yeah. Who had Bob Villain booked.
21:08
Bob Villain says something at Glastonbury, which actually was
21:11
a yes, there's procedures at Gastonby about what you can and
21:14
can't say. But also, it was actually a
21:16
broadcast issue because it was the broadcast bit that shouldn't
21:18
have happened. But they're at the receiving end
21:21
of huge amounts of quick anger, people's opinions, much like,
21:27
you know, go to a football match and there's 30,000 people who
21:30
who who know, you know, who know how to manage the team.
21:32
But they're getting that with this huge anger.
21:35
And Catherine, you know, has shared this publicly, but she
21:37
got death. Threats.
21:39
And she was going and she, they were getting threats whether if
21:42
they put them on and they're getting threats if they took
21:44
them off and nobody, well, for a while, a lot of people just were
21:48
not actually looking at the detail.
21:50
What was really warming about that, if I can say that, because
21:55
there was a horrible thing that happened.
21:57
Was there a huge community of people who did, who know the
22:00
festival or know the artists or know the people and knew that it
22:05
was more nuanced than that? And then there was other people
22:08
responding and reading articles, and Catherine was writing things
22:11
or saying things and they were reading them and say, no, it's
22:13
not as simple as that, actually. And they were trying to sort of
22:16
hold around them. And I thought that was really
22:18
inspiring, but it didn't stop of.
22:21
Course some people who just want to have an attack.
22:24
You know when you're running a festival, there's all.
22:26
Kinds of things to be. That's the point.
22:28
We're not looking at one particular lens.
22:30
We're not going right. Let's focus on politics issue or
22:34
sponsorship next year. There's there's 1000 different
22:36
things that can blow through. You know, when you're running a
22:39
festival, you're focused on a number of different things in
22:42
the middle of the space. You want to have the best party
22:45
of whatever it is that you're doing that you've ever seen, and
22:47
you want it to be the safest party that's ever happened.
22:50
You know that that's the two things going at once.
22:52
How can we let people be as free and as wild and as creative and
22:56
as loose as they want? You know, and people take kids
22:58
to festivals and they just let their kids go, right?
23:01
How do we make that happen? Because we make festivals
23:03
incredibly safe spaces. So they are the bits that we
23:05
come out of the whatever the conversation is, that's the
23:09
focus. Is it safe?
23:11
You know, what are we doing? And are we following the right
23:13
policies and procedures to do that?
23:15
And the, the festival industry broadly, particularly through
23:19
things like AIF, you know, the tight knit community who will
23:22
lean in and help each other, but also learn off each other.
23:25
What happened, what happened that weekend?
23:27
What do we need to do for next weekend?
23:29
What is there anything that you've done that we can learn
23:31
from that we can change, you know, and trying to help each
23:34
other along and, and that, you know, I have to say broadly, it
23:36
doesn't matter whether you're independent or not.
23:38
There's a lot of that a lot of that happens.
23:40
You know, three years ago there was a vape spiking incident at
23:44
Isle of Wight in June event the whole industry, it felt like
23:48
knew about that straight away and was immediately talked
23:50
about. Is this something we should be
23:52
worried about? What should we do about it?
23:54
You know, because that's what we want.
23:56
We want people to come and have a good time and fortunately that
23:58
was, it seems like an isolated incident that was that like.
24:02
You say someone, something happens at one festival, they
24:04
have to react very quickly, but then everyone else can learn and
24:07
yeah, prepare, I guess, which which brings you into this next
24:11
thing because. And there's no danger of me and
24:13
Steve doing this just to warn you ahead.
24:15
But if we were watching to start our own festival, we were
24:18
thinking about just how little we know about what what goes
24:21
into it, what you should be thinking about.
24:23
And so I was going to kind of pick your brains on the on the
24:24
notional basis if I was launching a festival now.
24:27
Yeah. But the the kind of process and
24:30
the pitfalls and and I guess a good place to think is, is where
24:33
do people start? Like do people often start with
24:35
they've identified an underserved place or they've
24:39
ventified an audience or they just have a site they want to
24:42
use? Like what?
24:42
What are what are the what's a good starting point for someone
24:45
who's thinking I could put on a festival?
24:48
Most people, yeah, there's two sort of ways there's, but
24:52
there's this sort of broadly speaking the corporate way,
24:55
which we won't talk about and there's the independent way and
24:59
a lot of the independent. Festivals start with a party.
25:03
Somebody's having a party about something, a birthday or a tribe
25:07
of people or they really want to put, you know, Stroud on the
25:11
map, whatever it happens to be, right.
25:14
And that's where the festival starts, you know, because I
25:17
think about, I think about hidden notes here, the weekend
25:19
where, you know, that's something in Stroud with all
25:20
these amazing artists got a record label, you know, so
25:22
there's a community that comes together and wants to have a
25:24
moment to mark it. So for some reasons, you know,
25:27
birthday and anniversary and then they do it and it looks and
25:32
feels a bit like a festival and then they do it again and it
25:34
becomes a festival. That's that's the biggest driver
25:37
of festivals. And sometimes, you know, there's
25:40
stories where people go to a festival, whatever it is, and
25:43
go, oh, wow, that was amazing. I want to do that in, you know,
25:47
Todd Morden or whatever it is, right?
25:49
So why don't we do that here, you know, And that's the
25:52
catalyst. Or they stumble at, you know,
25:54
the bin somewhere. They see a site.
25:55
They're like, this would be a great space to have a party, you
25:58
know, By party, I mean, you know, dancing or live bands or
26:02
something, you know, or. You've got people who like love
26:05
trails, you know, you've got a group of people who love running
26:07
and love music and so they go to West Wales and they run love
26:11
trails where you you run all day and then you party at night and
26:15
that's where most festivals come from.
26:18
It sounds like there's there's a real central, like you have to
26:21
have an idea, I guess an ethos or not just I quite fancy
26:25
putting a festival on. It sounds like all those things,
26:27
they came from a core of a strong core of people or a
26:30
strong idea of a new combination of things.
26:33
Yeah, they're absolutely driven by generally a person or a small
26:36
group of people passionate about something that want to celebrate
26:41
it and mark it right. And that that's where they come
26:43
from. And if you want to run a
26:44
successful festival, that's what you need to do, right.
26:48
And I actually, now that that's what those people who are doing
26:51
well, you know, you double down on that community.
26:53
You know, if you're, there are some people who go right, you
26:56
know, they I'd like to be a festival promoter, you know, and
26:59
you start Brooking bands. You are, unless you've got a
27:02
very, very deep wallet, you are going to fail doing that because
27:06
you're relying on, you don't have a community to start with.
27:09
You're hoping for the fans of the band to come along and then
27:12
those bands are going to change every year.
27:14
What's your community? So it does work for some people.
27:16
But do you? Tend to see those ones run by
27:18
the major operators rather than most of the festivals you go to.
27:23
You can look and you know the tribes of people, whatever those
27:26
people are. Tribes can be metal or tribes
27:28
can be. Gloucestershire, you know, like
27:32
it can be, you know, I set up one that was in Cardiff.
27:34
It's all about celebrating Cardiff and city and Wales, you
27:38
know, That was a big driver for me and Hugh when we set, I was
27:41
up and I see when I met Kate and Sarah from tram lines at the
27:46
time, that's exactly what they were doing in Sheffield.
27:48
I was like, I've met my these are these are my people.
27:51
They're doing exactly what what we're trying to do over here.
27:53
And there's there's loads of those multi venue festivals all
27:56
done for the same reason, celebrating a scene, celebrating
27:58
a place. That's your starting point for
28:00
you and. I guess, I guess, and this is
28:03
again, it's where my knowledge is a thing, but I guess one of
28:05
the things that separates me a party from festival is obviously
28:08
you have to go and get a licence for it, which is not.
28:11
I mean, we could do probably 4 hours couldn't be on the
28:13
licensing insurance and outs of filing a festival.
28:15
But that's something where I think people who don't, who have
28:18
never been involved in this would think, well, you just ask
28:21
the council and say can I have a festival please?
28:23
And they go yes, of course that would be marvellous.
28:25
Licensing is a really important step to get right and to to make
28:29
sure it kind of maintains, isn't it?
28:32
Yeah, very much. It goes back to what I was
28:33
saying. You, you want to throw a really
28:35
good party, but it needs to be safe, right?
28:37
And you might promise yourself it's going to be safe.
28:40
But actually what you need is a set of, you know, an event
28:44
management plan, a book that you've written that explains how
28:48
it is going to be safe, You know, which has got things like
28:50
if there's lightning, this is what we're going to do.
28:53
This is our, this is our extreme weather plan.
28:55
If there's, you know, you know, if we're building the site and
28:57
suddenly, and it's dry all the time and then suddenly the rain
29:00
comes down, this is what we're going to do to make sure it's
29:02
safe. This is our traffic management
29:04
plan. This is how we're going to get
29:05
people in and out. And we've identified where the
29:08
bottlenecks and things will be. That's all the stuff that you do
29:11
that comes both from people with huge experience of what those
29:16
things look like. I mean they, you know, if you,
29:19
when you go to particularly the really big events, you see it,
29:22
you see it Glastonbury, you see suddenly people.
29:24
Turn up in a row, a place where you're walking around, you can't
29:27
walk anymore, there's people with torches guiding you because
29:30
they've got this huge management plan, crowd management plan to
29:33
because they know that was it this year Charlie XCX is going
29:36
to be a big hit, so they're going to move so they've.
29:38
Thought all of that through. Yes, sometimes they might not
29:42
work out how popular the band is, whatever, but generally
29:45
that's all that's a, that's what all goes into that license
29:48
application when you meet with what's called the SAG Safety
29:51
Advisory Group. Where?
29:52
Where? And we we always find these
29:54
really they're good talking point in festivals because all
29:57
of the. Party element of a festival and
29:59
the colour and the vibes and the wonderful things they do.
30:02
None of that is discussed in A sag.
30:04
In a sag it's like it's health and safety and fire and traffic
30:08
and all the really like important stuff.
30:10
But you can actually really lose sight of why you're doing it
30:13
because you're not talking about all the good times.
30:15
But, but all of that stuff is what makes the event safe.
30:19
And what you go back to review and, and you need, you go
30:22
through that process. You have to pay money too for a
30:24
premises licence, of course. But then you go through and you
30:28
get your licence and, and off you go.
30:29
And you've, you've got your evidence trailed to say for
30:33
everybody, you know that you're getting a licence with a local
30:36
authority. The local authority has to
30:38
answer to questions from, from people who live there and, and
30:43
if and if you know whether it goes right or wrong, you know,
30:45
So that's you're just laying all the paperwork out.
30:47
There's a lot of paperwork, unfortunately, in festivals and.
30:50
So, and we were talking and saying like even down to the,
30:52
the, the minutiae of like we were, we were trying to
30:55
discreet. I wonder how much festivals
30:56
spend on portaloos. You're thinking that's a line
30:59
like every festival when I, I can tell you exactly how much I
31:01
spent on portaloos. It was this much.
31:02
It's in my accounts, staffing and security, even insurance,
31:05
which is another area that we could probably do an hour on.
31:07
But all this stuff has to be put in place and be right.
31:10
Otherwise, you're going to have a problem, aren't you?
31:12
Yeah, Yeah. I mean, yeah, somebody joined
31:16
our membership this year, last year and in the WhatsApp at some
31:19
point said or traders asked me for a copy of such and such
31:24
license. But insurance, sorry, but I
31:26
don't need that, do I? And immediately the membership
31:28
was like, yes, you do, right. And they've been running their
31:31
festival for a number of years without the right insurance.
31:35
And lastly, had got through and now have got it sorted, you
31:39
know, Yeah, the the yeah, there's a 2000 trees.
31:44
James who runs 2000 trees and Gavin who runs Damnation do a
31:48
podcast and they did one called the Costa festivals where they
31:51
came with their spreadsheets and I can I can tell you that 2000
31:55
trees at the time. So for his budget for 2025,
31:58
James gives. What he called.
31:59
Stinky Pete who does the Toilets 34. £34,000 for toilets Ten
32:05
£10,000. For diesel to £10,000.
32:08
Just the diesel that they went through 50,000 lbs.
32:11
It wasn't power. Power 1000 lbs was like the
32:17
tables and chairs that you get. Like if you're.
32:19
Backstage and you just want to sit down somewhere like if
32:21
you're a press officer, 1000 lbs just on that.
32:24
But the ones that are really interesting, you know, 3/4 of a
32:26
million on artists. So you have a £2,000,000
32:30
festival in terms of costs, 2000 trees and 3/4 a million.
32:34
And then I think the other one that I thought was really
32:36
interesting because he was just about how much that has grown,
32:39
you know, as a budget that's the biggest rise, but over a quarter
32:44
million on people staff. I think food, I think feeding
32:48
the people. Like the, the, the.
32:49
Crew and the artist, I think that was maybe 50,000 lbs, you
32:52
know, just to make sure everyone's fed through the week.
32:54
The water, I can't remember what his water number.
32:57
Was I think, like. 37,000 because they have no water on
32:59
the site, so all all everything has to be brought in, including
33:03
all the. Water which people don't think
33:04
about. I think you, you would think,
33:05
oh, of course there'll be water from somewhere there weren't
33:07
there there? You assume there's a, there's
33:09
some kind of a water pipe already on this site and of
33:11
course there isn't. You have to.
33:12
No. And you get to festivals where
33:15
you then also have people out testing that water all the time.
33:17
It's got to make sure that there isn't a contagion in that that
33:20
would harm people. So you've got huge amounts of
33:24
Yeah, the, you know, I've, I've never put on, of those festivals
33:28
of scale and I've learning so much.
33:29
And the amount of dedication from those people and the money
33:33
and the time that goes in to make sure that every little
33:37
detail of that is as safe as possible, I find incredibly
33:40
inspiring actually, to be honest, when you're sitting with
33:42
those people. So yeah, it's quite, quite
33:46
remarkable. And most people go to the high
33:47
school, Yeah. And have a really, you know,
33:49
millions of people going to have a really brilliant time.
33:51
Do you know, I don't want to do a whole podcast about Stinky
33:53
Pete? I'm fascinated by but that's
33:57
another time. I mean, you mentioned artists.
33:58
I mean, that's the other thing I guess that I've learnt from
34:00
talking to people who are promoting festivals.
34:02
It's just the the fascinating timelines of booking artists
34:06
because obviously you have the negotiations happen at certain
34:09
points when you're booking them in, but often it can be years.
34:12
These conversations kind of a would you fancy doing this or we
34:14
can't do it next year? Talk to me.
34:16
Sometimes some bookings are like years in the making, others are
34:19
quick and that that must be a really, it strikes me as an
34:23
amazing job just saying which what would be an amazing lineup
34:25
of artists for this day? But there's so many wheels
34:28
spinning out there to get it right and to get the people you
34:30
want. Yeah, definitely.
34:32
I mean, I've, again, never had personally had the, you know, I
34:35
booked a small festival. I could pick things and work
34:38
with Hewitt I loved. And one of my favorite bits was
34:40
that was that putting the line up in an order and imagining
34:44
what the journey might be for somebody.
34:45
And I think a lot of festival promoters and bookers, that's
34:47
what they really love. They they have these little
34:49
roots. But yeah, when you're getting to
34:52
scale and by scale be 15,000 capitals, so you're getting to a
34:56
cycle where, yeah, a year ahead now or more.
35:00
It's all moved a long time ago. I remember being in South by
35:03
Southwest with Ben, who booked Scream and South by Southwest
35:06
about March or April. And Ben didn't have his like,
35:08
one of his headliners and was quite relaxed.
35:10
And those days are long gone. You know, you're a year out, but
35:15
I learned, you know you learn that.
35:17
There's all the strange things in the music.
35:18
Industry, like if you offer for somebody for a Friday night
35:20
headliner, you can't offer anybody else while that offers
35:23
out. So there's strange games that
35:26
people have to. And it kind of makes sense in
35:28
some ways, but also not. And it's strange games that
35:31
these Paul bookers have to to play.
35:33
And sometimes you have a band on your wish list and you just, you
35:37
know, you've asked about it a number of times.
35:39
And then the agent will be like they're going to be around, we
35:41
can make it happen. What an agent normally says is
35:45
we need a bit more money. It's always to happen.
35:48
Yeah. So, you know, the whole booking
35:50
thing has changed. We again, every year we see
35:53
something different. I've only been in this job for
35:55
years. You know, last year we saw move
35:57
again. So people went on sale with
35:59
their early birds and you know, a month after in the summer, by
36:03
the end of November, everybody had their if you didn't have
36:07
your headliners out right. And some people have their full
36:10
line about blood stock Kendall Calling had their full line
36:12
about by the end of November and the second wave of tickets.
36:15
So tickets used to be on sale all the time.
36:17
Those days are gone. You have these waves of tickets
36:19
now. And basically, if you weren't at
36:21
that point at the end of November, then you were you were
36:25
going to struggle in 2020. 5:00 And also at that point in
36:28
November, you kind of knew how you were going to do once that
36:31
second wave of that, that was your marker.
36:33
And that's moved massively from people used to use the spring to
36:36
sort of book. The rest of their their, their
36:38
undercard, it's all done now. For a lot of people, it's all
36:43
done before. Christmas.
36:44
I mean that. The early bird tickets
36:45
fascinating too, because again, I feel like that's a relatively
36:47
recent, well, not not necessarily recently they're
36:50
being offered, but recent in the importance of them and the sheer
36:53
percentage of sales that are done to early bird tickets.
36:55
And how like you say, it's not just it's a, it's a real can we
37:00
do this next year? This will tell us if we can or
37:02
not I guess. Yeah.
37:03
And it's been, what I have to say, like one of the most
37:05
positive trends that's coming out for us.
37:10
And I think there's probably a couple of things happening when
37:13
you book your early bird now, you're quite often just putting
37:16
a deposit down on the payment plan.
37:17
So you don't need to find 2 or £300, you need to find 20
37:20
pounds, 25 lbs. So I think those that coupled
37:25
with something else, you know, the magic that's going on.
37:28
We actually did a survey of members recently, like a couple
37:31
of weeks ago saying how many of your tickets do you sell at
37:33
Early birds, you know, and how many do you sell at the second
37:37
wave and sort of headliners and line up.
37:39
And those numbers are all going up for people.
37:41
So you know, at the, the the worst examples, they were
37:45
selling 10% to early birds, but you've got people selling out on
37:48
early birds and you know, you've got people in the 6070% tickets.
37:53
And that trend is they're all those numbers are going up and
37:56
that for a festival. Is brilliant and it says a lot
37:59
of things. It says that when the moment
38:00
when people are there, they've had a great time, suddenly a
38:03
month later put a deposit down, they want to go.
38:06
And and I, I like how few things in life do you commit to with a
38:12
year early? Like when there's a wedding,
38:14
you'll say to your friend will say there's a wedding in a year.
38:17
And even that sometimes you're like when I go, I like, you
38:20
know, you might say you're going on holiday and book a week's
38:22
holiday, but you'd book the time off, but you might not decide
38:25
where you're going. But festivals.
38:28
You you say, yeah, I'm going to go the end of the road in
38:31
September 2026, right. And very few things have that
38:36
level of commitment and that is growing.
38:38
So those early bird tickets are all on the up and those, yeah,
38:42
that next wave part has moved forward and those.
38:45
Numbers are all on the up and then if you're not sold out,
38:48
then you have what's left, the hard yards, which is what I call
38:51
the hard yards, which is the hard bit and you're trying to
38:53
trying to get the rest over the line, but.
38:55
Yeah, mostly really positive. And it just says that when
38:58
people are there in the moment, they're like, yeah, I'm up for
39:00
coming back. Yeah, I know.
39:01
Often without a lineup, just you want to go.
39:04
There again, you truly trust them.
39:06
Yeah. Yeah.
39:06
Early birds. There's no lineup.
39:08
It's literally, I'm going to be in Yorkshire for Deer Shed next
39:13
July, Right. And Ollie, probably at that
39:16
point you might have booked a band, but, you know, and Megan,
39:19
they might have booked a band, but they haven't told you who it
39:20
is yet. They just, you just know that
39:22
you want to go there, which is I just think it's incredible.
39:24
You trust these people? I mean, I guess you, we talked
39:27
earlier on about your work at the AF and the idea that it is
39:29
talking to government and, and sometimes responding to what
39:32
they're doing, but also going to them.
39:34
What are your, and again, this could be a long confrontation,
39:37
but what are your, what are your big asks at the moment?
39:39
What do you think could be the things that could really
39:41
meaningfully help? I mean, you mentioned licensing
39:43
is something that's happening right now.
39:45
What other things are kind of are on your agenda to put on the
39:49
government's agenda? There's one thing really that
39:52
we're focusing on now, which is which is how do we fix that
39:57
festival that's selling out but losing a little bit of money
40:01
because, because how do we make that happen?
40:03
Because we know that those supply costs aren't going to go
40:06
down because they're not. And you can only put the tickets
40:10
up so much because otherwise you start to make festivals
40:14
exclusive. And we don't want that, You
40:16
know, we don't want to look what's going on in some of those
40:18
concert stadium tours. We don't want that to happen in
40:21
festivals. So we've, we've suggested that
40:25
they create what we've called a music festival tax relief, which
40:27
is a, you know, they have creative reliefs, they have an
40:30
orchestra tax relief, a theatre tax relief.
40:32
They have some of them in the film industry, which helps
40:35
basically if you're, and it will help start festivals too.
40:38
So it would give you relief on the music and the creative
40:41
elements of your festival. So, you know, it's still a big
40:46
commitment. You've still got to make your
40:48
show happen. You've got to pay for everything
40:49
and you've got to get, get through the year.
40:51
But when you do your tax return, you get 45% relief on 80% of the
40:56
eligible expenditure. And that that's making a huge
40:59
would make a huge shift on the bottom line.
41:00
So if you're making money, your, your tax bill will go down.
41:04
So you'll make more money. But if you're losing money,
41:08
you'll get tax credit, right? And it reduces the losses.
41:11
So it's, that's what we're trying to get into.
41:13
And and also then if somebody's sitting there on the side, if
41:16
you and Steve are like we. Really want to put.
41:18
Our festival on you know though, it's.
41:19
Hard to get in because of the costs and so if you know at the
41:23
end of it there's going to be a tax relief, it makes it a little
41:25
bit more OK, maybe we can do it, maybe, maybe it's worth to go.
41:30
Still risky, right? Still risky.
41:31
It's a big role, putting a festival on.
41:33
So it's like opening a shop but for only four days a year and
41:36
hoping it doesn't rain, which is a terrible.
41:38
Business model, but goodness that people do it.
41:43
Yeah. And I mean, you sold me on that,
41:45
but alas. Well, thankfully my yeah, but
41:49
but do you feel, do you feel optimistic that the government
41:51
is going to listen to this? I mean, like you say that
41:52
there's, there's I guess there's prior examples of them doing
41:54
this and it working culturally. So are you, are you feeling
41:58
quite optimistic they'll they'll be listening to this request?
42:00
Well, I've taken some advice off people that know this and
42:03
they've said me said to me that the chances are low and they
42:07
rate that as a really good chance.
42:09
OK. We were looking for.
42:11
For no VAT or reduced VAT and they said, they said trying to
42:15
get VAT on tickets at a lower rate, your chances were zero,
42:19
right? So you're at low.
42:20
So we think you're going to have a good shot at this.
42:23
And actually if you put yourself, you know where, what
42:26
do the government want? They want growth and this is
42:31
going to help people start up festivals and it's also going to
42:34
help some of the smaller festivals grow.
42:36
So if you're doing 10,000 tickets and you're selling out,
42:39
why would you try and sell more right now because you've got to
42:43
fund all of that. The tax relief would make it or
42:45
we can, we can try and stretch somebody was this year under a
42:49
small 5000 capacity event sells out.
42:51
They'd love to do a second one somewhere else, but they're
42:55
like, we can't finance it. And as soon as we talked about a
42:57
tax relief, they were like we could that would be enough.
43:00
We'd be able to go to the banks and make that happen, but they
43:02
can't roll it on 2 events. So that's, that's so we you
43:06
know, I know, of course it would mitigate the closures.
43:08
So we go back to the people that are selling out and losing
43:10
money. If suddenly it's going to work
43:12
for them, they're going to have a bit of space, bit of money and
43:14
and enjoy it again. We're going to keep those people
43:17
in the game. So I took that advice.
43:20
Yeah. If low is good, then we're we're
43:23
feeling positive. But.
43:25
I guess I mean, the that was the final question I have was, was
43:29
about positivity, I guess, and just the fact that it sounds, I
43:33
mean, you sound very optimistic and and though, because I think
43:35
if we did a conversation two years ago, we might have been
43:38
worrying about a lot of different things, like you said,
43:39
about what's happening. But it sounds like you're very
43:43
confident in in, I guess that getting outside even the cost,
43:46
just getting down to the fact that festivals are selling out.
43:49
They're growing like this idea of people do love going to
43:52
festivals and they love going to independent festivals because I
43:55
don't, you know, I think everyone people do love
43:56
Glastonbury. They're the big festivals, but
43:58
the fact they love independent festivals, that's that sounds,
44:01
that's exciting that for the music industry as well As for
44:05
the promotion of these events. Yeah, I mean, it's a great time
44:08
of year to catch me because we've just come out this summer
44:09
and so we've been to lots of festivals.
44:12
And that's so good, That's so good.
44:15
And I work in festivals, but I forget what it's like until you
44:18
start in the, you know, so you sort of like approaching the
44:21
festival, suddenly you get all of these things come back to you
44:25
and you're like, oh, yes, this is what's going to happen.
44:27
I'm not very good at sort of imagining what it's going to be
44:29
like, you know, in the party. But as I approach, it's sort of,
44:33
Oh yes. And then they're just so good.
44:37
They are just so good. And and I get to get to a number
44:42
of them with with the job and have learned about loads of new
44:46
festivals. And and then I see all of that
44:48
passion and all that love happening in with all of these
44:51
communities and these Mavericks and these strange people.
44:55
And it's like, wow. And it happens, you know, but
44:58
that, you know, in the fields. We're in the fields from about
45:01
May, June to September. But you know, I'll be going back
45:04
to soon festival in Cardiff next, you know, back be back in
45:07
a multi venue festival. I've been listening to the bands
45:10
that Adam who books it is picked.
45:11
You know, and it's like, I'm so excited about so many bands.
45:15
Yeah. So all of that fills me with
45:18
joy. And there's other things going
45:19
on at the moment. You know, there's a big
45:21
sustainability report that the whole sector's involved in with,
45:24
you know, Live Nation, AG, Superstruct and all the Indies
45:29
called The Show Must Go On report, which they do every five
45:31
years. And there's such a, if you look
45:33
at the history of that report, I think this is the third will be
45:36
the third iteration. I think I might have got that
45:37
wrong, but. You know the the.
45:41
At the start there was a small group of people who said I think
45:43
we should save the planet. Now you've got everybody, it
45:45
feels in the industry, it doesn't matter what size pair
45:47
you are or contributing with into this report, but also on
45:53
the ground. So they're doing things in the
45:54
festival and then they come to meetings and they share what
45:56
they're doing goes back, you know, like we've tried this
45:59
bailing machine to and it reduces the amount of diesel you
46:03
need in terms of the number of lorries that come so you can
46:05
reduce your footprint. And everybody's working with the
46:07
guy that makes a bailing machine.
46:08
Or whatever it happens to be. And that's so inspiring.
46:12
And they probably will hate me for saying this, but like what I
46:16
know some of the people have said is like in the summer, if
46:20
you want to save the planet, the best thing you can do is lock
46:24
your house up and go to a festival because it's better for
46:27
the planet than being at home. And it's like, what a brilliant
46:30
world. If the way to save the planet is
46:32
go out and have a good time. Oh, like I'm bang up for that.
46:37
I saw, I saw some research recently, I can't know who did
46:39
the report, but it was, it was talking about they were
46:42
surveying fans, attendees of festivals and it seemed like
46:45
they were really in keen to know what festivals are doing on this
46:49
front as well. Like, and they actually, it's a
46:51
selling point for a festival. If you can say this is what
46:54
we're doing like this, what a number of people want, which and
46:59
we shouldn't get into politics, but there's there's a push back
47:02
against net zero and all these things happening in different
47:04
parts of the world, very powerful people.
47:06
But in this area, festivals and and music fans, it feels like
47:10
music fans are do care about this and they want to know that
47:13
stuff is being done and tried. And it's not I, I agree.
47:16
And, and you know, it's the, it's the masses against the
47:18
classes. I just realised the Depeche Mode
47:20
album there. And that's what's going on.
47:22
And they're not, they're not necessarily just there because
47:24
they care about the planet. Like this is the the they like
47:29
they can ask about it because it's better.
47:31
And so when you go, you know, we out here had a no and low bar,
47:34
which is going to get into that space, right.
47:35
So instead of demonizing people, not drinking, that is incredibly
47:39
successful. No and low bar, you know, with a
47:41
huge range of stuff. And it's like that's what people
47:43
want, not because for whatever it because and it's tastier and
47:46
better. You've got backstage catering.
47:48
I know there's somebody who got rid of beef at some not at an
47:52
event, you know, taking it off the menu and nobody's noticing
47:56
because it's because what they're being fed is better,
47:58
tastier. The 6040 meals backstage where
48:02
you reduce the amount of meat in the meal and then you add more
48:04
protein and plant stuff but you still serve it off.
48:06
As a chili. You know, people are going, oh,
48:09
this is delicious. All right.
48:11
If you told them it was like had less meat in there, would some
48:14
people would protest, but you don't.
48:15
You're still getting your lamb this or your chicken that, but
48:18
it's loads taste it. So there's all of this.
48:21
You do it because it's just better and right.
48:24
It contributes to these other things.
48:26
But you're quite right. There's a coming out of.
48:28
COVID, that was a particular the communications from individuals,
48:32
particularly younger audiences, overwhelmed festivals in the old
48:35
days. It was sort of like they bought
48:37
their ticket and they turned up and then they asked questions
48:39
when they were there. They now ask lots of questions
48:42
in the build up and a festivals weren't ready for that, but
48:46
they're good questions and they're interesting and they're
48:48
asking about stuff. And so those lines of
48:51
communication are really open and festivals are like, oh, we
48:54
need to just asking like, you know, whatever.
48:57
Wherever, you know, where can I, where can I get the vegetarian
49:00
food or, or where's the quiet space for me to go?
49:02
Or is there some way I can go for a run?
49:04
Right. And they're asking it when you
49:06
hear that 1000 times you go, maybe we should have a run club.
49:10
I think like actually. And then they do.
49:12
And you know, we out here, they all go for a swim in the lake,
49:15
you know. And so, yeah.
49:17
So I think all that stuff is. Hugely positive and yeah, it's
49:21
great. It's great.
49:23
Well, I mean, thanks so much because this has been a really
49:24
positive discussion and I think honestly, just personally
49:27
you've, you've given me at least 7 festivals.
49:29
So I need to go and investigate for next year now, but I think
49:33
same for you. So thank you very much and good
49:35
luck with what's going on the the licensing, the lobbying, the
49:39
tax relief and hopefully we can have you back on again in the
49:42
future to talk about how it went brilliantly and the government
49:45
did exactly what we wanted and everyone is doing well.
49:47
A. 100% and AIS doors are always open for yours and Steve's new
49:52
festival all. Right, we're getting cracking on
49:54
the idea, although we you may, if you've heard the progress
49:56
before, we we have some differences about the bands we
49:58
might book. We might we might split up
50:01
creatively before it even happens.
50:02
But thank you so much and yes, enjoyed, really enjoyed talking
50:06
to you. Thank you very much, John
50:08
Rostrum. I mean, there's so much to take
50:11
in and digest from all that, which I think we'll come back to
50:16
next week. But you've got a lot of
50:19
information out of that interview, Stuart, about so many
50:23
different things as as well. I mean just the juggling acts
50:27
that promoters have to worry about.
50:30
I think so. The fascinating thing for me
50:32
about this whole world is, is it it's, it's the numbers, of
50:35
course, but it's the people, the people who do it.
50:37
It's such a fascinating array of people who the the the reasons
50:40
they have been better than the, the challenges they're dealing
50:42
with. Like you say, the juggling.
50:43
It's a real it's weird, Isn't it's weird to say it's a people
50:47
market because of course it is. But that's something that I
50:49
think comes across whenever you talk to anyone in that world.
50:52
That how you have to be a certain kind of you need to
50:55
drive, you need to be kind of a little bit crazy often, I think,
50:58
don't you? But but it's a wonderful it's a
51:01
wonderful part of, you know, interesting.
51:03
I'm glad, I'm glad we got the chance to talk to John in detail
51:05
about it. Yeah, any thoughts that you have
51:08
yourselves on anything that's been raised over the last half
51:12
an hour or so, we would love to know the price of music.
51:15
podcasts@gmail.com and say thanks again to John.
51:19
You can find more details of the work of the AIF at
51:22
www.aiforg.com. We'll be back with a normal show
51:29
next week, catching up on a couple of weeks worth of news In
51:32
the meantime. Thank you very much for
51:33
listening. If you are enjoying what we're
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52:07
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