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UGC WTF? - With Courtney Fritts · Scalability School

0:00
I wanted to make sure that there was no way that any of us could pre-prepare
0:02
for this because it's really important.
0:03
Courtney, this actually isn't for you because I know you are capable of
0:07
trading and have created several ads that you've been featured in that have
0:11
spent hundreds, if not maybe millions of dollars.
0:13
I don't know what the upper threshold is, but you're a star in several
0:16
banger UGC ads and that's not even counting the ones that you've scripted.
0:19
And I can also say that I've been in ads that I've spent hundreds of thousands of
0:22
dollars. So my question is actually Andrew, have you ever been featured or
0:26
created an ad that has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on meta?
0:29
You know, I have.
0:30
I think creators don't understand the algorithm and not that I do either, but
0:34
there's been plenty of times where I get an ad and I'm like, this is great.
0:38
I love it.
0:39
It's so wonderful.
0:39
We've talked about this in Hype House cohort calls.
0:42
This is amazing.
0:42
I put it in the account and it spends $2.
0:45
And then I'm like, weird.
0:46
I'll rather than let it let me force spend.
0:48
And then it spends $100 and has not a single ad to cart.
0:52
And I'm like, it's such a good ad.
0:53
Why is this not working?
0:54
And it's frustrating as a media buyer and it's frustrating as a creator whenever
0:58
they reach back out and they want performance data and you're like, it spent
1:01
$200 didn't get a single purchase.
1:03
And so I had to turn it off or it spent $60 and I can't force spend there
1:07
because it's not working.
1:09
But in terms of like paying for the content, I mean, the bigger the brand,
1:11
the more you could pay.
1:12
However, I don't think a single piece of UGC is worth more than six,
1:18
$700 from the brand's account.
1:20
Again, not whitelisting.
1:21
Um, it's just, it's hard to make those numbers work and hit rate nowadays.
1:24
Average is so low that like I recently paid $1,000 for a piece of content.
1:29
The content completely flopped.
1:31
Cool.
1:31
That was a loss for me.
1:32
So I would say generally like 250 to 500 is my sweet spot.
1:36
I'll go a little over that.
1:38
Um, I'll also go over that.
1:39
If the creator is proven for that specific brand, this could actually be
1:42
really broad, but like split screen hooks,
1:44
um, we're just like a vertical split screen.
1:46
I think our eyes are just getting so used to so many different like kinds of
1:49
creatives that like, it's kind of like we're all like the iPad kid that
1:52
just needs more stimulation.
1:53
And so the split screen is working really well.
1:55
Another thing going into Q4 is statics.
1:57
I have brands where statics don't work for 10 months out of the year.
2:00
And then November 1st hits and all of a sudden the ugliest
2:02
Canva graphic ever starts working.
2:04
So definitely don't sleep on your statics.
2:06
And like, I think a lot of times we try to get really cute and trendy with
2:09
our creatives and do it a day in the life, but like a day in the life when
2:13
the product's not featured until 20 seconds is never going to work.
2:15
And now let's take a listen to the scalability school podcast.
2:26
All right.
2:27
Welcome to episode 17 of a scalability school podcast.
2:30
Uh, we are very happy to have incredible advertiser, long time,
2:37
Foxville digital colleague of mine.
2:41
Used to work with Courtney back at the grand old Opry Ryman hospitality
2:45
properties.
2:46
I mean, it was the good old days.
2:48
And I remember saying to Courtney many years ago, if you ever
2:50
decide to do your own thing, let me know because I 100% want to work with you.
2:54
And we've worked together for, I think seven years now, some crazy amount of time.
2:58
And that surpasses the six years that I always tell people I've worked
3:02
with Shane, which in reality, it's like 12.
3:05
So you've surpassed.
3:06
First started saying that.
3:07
And then you like forgot to add on the years.
3:10
Exactly.
3:11
Yeah.
3:12
Um, but Courtney, you involved in so many things.
3:14
I have, I could do a really long intro, which I won't do, but things generally
3:18
function at Foxville digital and in the founders membership in part because of
3:22
Courtney, so thank you for all that you do for us and thank you for being here.
3:26
Courtney explain to the audience of the tens of listeners that we have
3:30
a scalability school, what you do.
3:32
I do a lot of things.
3:33
Anytime I have a like intro call and I try to explain it, people are just like.
3:38
What?
3:39
So, so for one, I work with Andrew at Foxville digital help
3:42
run the Foxville founders community.
3:43
I'm like reading through all of the messages, helping parse through them,
3:47
helping answer, directing members to answers, hopefully explaining some of the
3:53
nuance.
3:53
So I am a, I would consider myself a community manager of the Foxville founders.
3:58
I also have my own, um, ad buying shop.
4:02
I call myself an agency, but that's just for the sake of the IRS so that it's an
4:06
LLC company, it's just me.
4:07
And I do ad buying and creative strategy
4:09
for e-commerce brands ranging of all sizes.
4:12
So I'm also the leader of the small spenders cohort call on a for the founders.
4:16
And so I have clients that spend 3k a month.
4:19
I also have a client that'll be spending 900k this December in a month.
4:25
So super wide range, which is really fun for me.
4:27
And I really enjoy having that range.
4:30
And then I also do creative strategy.
4:32
So for most of my clients, I do like the ad buying and the creative strategy.
4:37
Did you see creator sourcing?
4:39
So I kind of have that like weird niche middle ground of understanding and doing
4:44
the ad buying while also understanding and doing the creative sourcing just
4:48
because they go so hand in hand.
4:51
Um, but I keep my client list small so that I can do both.
4:54
Um, that's just kind of my brain loves having like the sciencey, nerdy ad buying
4:58
and the artsy, what if this is really fun and intangible creative.
5:03
And so I kind of live in that middle ground.
5:05
Yeah.
5:06
And you've been a huge part of helping us launch, uh, the hive house creator
5:10
community for creators and for brands that connect with creators, if houseugc.com
5:15
just a little plug.
5:16
Also Brad is on this episode.
5:18
We invited him, I guess.
5:20
I don't even know.
5:21
I just showed up.
5:22
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5:56
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6:57
Brad, Brad has a question right away.
6:59
Brad, go ahead and let's get, let's get going.
7:02
Yeah, I wanted to make sure that there was no way that any of us could
7:04
pre-prepare for this because it's really important.
7:07
Courtney, this is actually isn't for you because I know you are capable of
7:11
trading and have created several ads that you've been featured in that have
7:15
spent hundreds, if not maybe millions of dollars.
7:18
I don't know what the upper, upper threshold is, but you're a star in, in
7:21
several banger UGC ads and that's not even counting the ones that you scripted.
7:25
And I can also say that I've been in ads that I've spent hundreds of thousands of
7:28
dollars. So my question is actually, Andrew.
7:31
Have you ever been featured or created an ad that has spent hundreds of
7:35
thousands of dollars on meta?
7:36
You know, I have, I have created them.
7:39
Yes.
7:40
We had a, one of the most famous examples was we had a client that had a, had a
7:45
bracelet set for Christmas and we did the classic thing where we got all this
7:50
holiday creative together.
7:51
This is many years ago and we launched it and it all totally bombed and we should
7:55
have just kept the same stuff going that we do all the time.
7:58
And so I was at my in-laws and took a photo with my iPhone of the set sitting
8:03
on the table and that ad helped them generate like a four X ROAS through Q4
8:08
at like some crazy, I don't even know, we
8:11
spent, you know, probably a million bucks.
8:13
So I've been it, but I've never been featured.
8:15
You know, I've never, I've never taken it online.
8:16
I used to act when I was a kid.
8:18
So, you know, Brad and I do, Andrew's not doing the face.
8:22
Yeah.
8:22
I could, I could probably do it, but nobody's been like, you know, Andrew,
8:24
look at, you're so, you're such a good looking guy.
8:26
We need you to be talking about products.
8:29
Everyone's like, you know what?
8:30
Why don't you get you rid of your face on the lander?
8:35
What if we put like, uh, people in a meeting on that image?
8:39
Yeah.
8:39
So no, I haven't, but that's, I mean, you guys are both stars.
8:43
You know, there's a lot that we can get into here.
8:46
Obviously Courtney, you've done a ton on creative and that's really, I think
8:50
where, where you shine, especially now.
8:53
So, you know, we went through and kind of wanted to bring together, uh, I don't
8:57
know, there's some questions that I think would be helpful for folks.
9:00
So what are three specific creative styles or hooks brands can steal and
9:05
run tomorrow that are working right now in your opinion?
9:08
Yeah.
9:09
So going into Q4 is kind of where my brain goes and like, that's everything.
9:13
That's I'm sure in all of our minds, right.
9:16
This moment is like planning, prepping, how can we get all that creative for
9:20
holiday season, higher intent, gifting products, those types of things.
9:23
For one, this is, can, this could actually be really broad, but like split screen
9:27
hooks, um, where it's just like a vertical split screen.
9:30
I think our eyes are just getting so used to so many different
9:33
like kinds of creatives that like, it's kind of like we're all like the iPad
9:36
kid that just needs more stimulation.
9:38
And so the split screen is working really well.
9:40
Another thing going into Q4 is statics.
9:43
I have brands where statics don't work for 10 months out of the year.
9:46
And then November 1st hits.
9:47
And all of a sudden the ugliest Canva graphic ever starts working.
9:51
So definitely don't sleep on your statics
9:53
and like, don't take yourself so seriously.
9:55
Like sometimes I hire a designer just for the sake of having a designer that can
9:59
like see if something looks right.
10:01
But I have a brand right now that's running that prime day deal and it is
10:05
the ugliest Canva graphic ever.
10:07
I made it two years ago, but I bring it back for every sale and this freaking
10:11
graphic keeps working and it's so ugly.
10:14
And I apologize to the client, but it's at like a five X ROAS.
10:17
And it just works.
10:19
So not necessarily saying the uglier, the better, but like the clearer, the better.
10:23
Um, and like bright colors.
10:25
So like during the prime day sales, I have like a blue and yellow.
10:28
So it's like a blue, black, that blue background and a yellow text.
10:32
But then come black Friday, I have a black graphic with red text and
10:36
it's like those colors just pop.
10:38
And then another one is like, don't be afraid to just be clear that this is an ad.
10:44
I think a lot of times we try to get really cute and trendy.
10:47
With our creatives and do a day in the life, but like a day in the life when
10:52
the product's not featured until 20 seconds is never going to work.
10:55
I recently paid a thousand dollars for a creator.
10:58
She did a day in the life.
10:59
Get ready with me.
11:00
Product wasn't introed until 23 seconds.
11:02
And I was like, let's test it.
11:03
Maybe absolutely.
11:05
No, like I know it didn't work at all.
11:08
So, but then I have an ad for another brand that's been
11:11
working for two and a half years.
11:13
I just recently got a remade with the exact same script and a different creator.
11:16
Creator was Mariah working again.
11:19
So wonderful.
11:20
And it's just, this is the product.
11:22
This is how you use it.
11:23
This is why I love it.
11:24
This is an ad and that's okay.
11:26
And I think especially going into Q4, we know as users on Instagram,
11:31
Facebook, TikTok platforms, we know there are ads, there are paid and unpaid ads.
11:36
There's whitelisting like we know this.
11:38
So I don't think you just tell me, Hey, this is a cool product.
11:41
Check it out and like not get so cutesy and like the sooner that you can get to
11:44
the point, the sooner you can enter the product, the sooner that you can make
11:47
sure that you have the right customer watching the better, like the, that best
11:52
ad that I was just talking about that worked for literally two and a half
11:55
years, spent $600,000.
11:57
It just says, Hey, this is the product.
12:00
This is what it is.
12:00
But it has like a 20% hook rate, like thumbstop, which is not great.
12:05
Generally we want like 40 to 60, but it weeds out the people who don't give a shit.
12:10
And then it keeps the people who do care
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and the conversion rate is that much higher.
12:14
So like, don't be afraid to just be like, Hey bro, this is an ad.
12:17
This is the product.
12:18
Do you like it?
12:19
And like, that's okay.
12:21
Yeah.
12:21
It's so funny you say that I wrote this writing stuff down as you were saying all
12:23
these things and I have a few questions to
12:25
come back on, but the thing that you just
12:27
landed on, which was like, it just, it just immediately tells people what it is.
12:31
We have a client that sells candy and they come out with a holiday box every single
12:34
year and we, I think I may have told this story before, but last year I saw the
12:38
founder posted on his Instagram story, a video of, and I was like, can you send me
12:42
those?
12:42
Like, I just want to use those as ads.
12:45
And I sent it over to somebody on our team and we accidentally uploaded the second
12:48
story first instead of like meshing it together and putting it in order.
12:52
And it ended up being the top spending ad and he likes the video starts with him
12:55
holding up the box and saying it's $50.
12:57
He's still talking from the previous slide, but he's like, it's $50, whatever,
13:01
whatever, and it was just really
13:02
interesting that he's like, got straight to the point.
13:04
It's like, okay, it immediately weeds out if somebody's not willing to spend $50 on
13:07
a candy holiday box and then it shows it
13:10
off any standing in a warehouse, which was,
13:11
which was I think really compelling.
13:13
So yeah, no, that's really interesting.
13:15
You mentioned, you mentioned ugly ads and like you said, sometimes the uglier, the
13:18
better. I just, every time I hear ugly ads in reference to it, Barry hot's probably
13:22
like twitching somewhere.
13:24
He just like it's a, it gets a twinge in his brain every time somebody references
13:26
that. Anyways, I do have some real questions that I'm curious about.
13:30
So you mentioned statics.
13:33
It sounded like you were mentioning, you're kind of referencing like graphics
13:36
specific statics.
13:37
So like those really compelling colors, especially Q4, like straight into the
13:39
point, it says what the discount is.
13:41
Leave no room for confusion there.
13:43
Have you seen, have you seen like organic looking Instagram story as kind of like,
13:50
I took a photo, I'm holding the product in my hand and I'm just using Instagram
13:55
story fonts. Like what other, what other types of statics have you done that are
13:59
maybe like low lift, but have been pretty impactful?
14:02
I mean, Andrew, the story that you told was like an example of this, but any other
14:05
like static stuff specifically that works?
14:07
Yeah, still the, like the TikTok comment response or like the Instagram like
14:12
question response overlay, whether you just screenshot someone that actually did
14:17
that, or you like make it in Photoshop with a template or Canva or whatever,
14:21
those work great.
14:22
And I think it's okay for it to like just say, be like, Hey, here's the product.
14:26
Like that's okay.
14:27
I had one static recently that worked well.
14:29
And it was, had, it was for like a, well, you guys probably know the product,
14:32
but it's for an after alcohol drinking vitamin.
14:35
Um, and like it had the Instagram font of like the time on it.
14:39
And it was like 6am or 7am kid's soccer practice.
14:43
And I'm fine after last night's martini or whatever, but it was like the, the
14:47
Instagram font time, which I think really made sense.
14:51
And so it's just like, I think a lot of this is like, not everything is going to
14:54
be copy and paste for every brand, but like, just put yourself in the shoes
14:58
of like your customer.
15:00
And like a lot of times, like people will, you know, go on like their social media,
15:04
you know, sabbatical, they go off of it.
15:06
And I'm like, but I get some of my best ideas from scrolling Instagram.
15:10
And I kind of like make a point to do that.
15:12
And I use foreplay and I just, I can DM my foreplay DM with ideas that I like.
15:17
And I know that I'm getting a lot of 30 something white millennial
15:20
female targeted ads, but also the 30 something white millennial females
15:25
are the ones that are buying a lot of shit.
15:27
So also I'm like, well, that's okay.
15:28
Yeah.
15:29
Like just scroll.
15:30
And then like, anytime that I see an ad that I like or don't like, or anytime
15:35
that I buy something off of an ad, I automatically send that to my foreplay
15:38
board because I'm like, I immediately put myself in the mind of the marketer,
15:42
Courtney, and I'm like, why did I like this?
15:45
Why did I click on it?
15:47
Why do it, why am I not the person at all that wants to buy this,
15:50
but I still clicked on it.
15:52
Why?
15:52
And just asking those questions.
15:54
I think too many of us get caught up in the, you know, the, what everyone
15:57
is saying on Twitter or LinkedIn or whatever, and we're, we want to do
16:02
what everyone else is doing.
16:03
And it's like, I, it's nice to have help in the space and have conversation,
16:08
but also just like ask yourself, what do I buy?
16:13
Why am I clicking on it?
16:14
Why was this interesting?
16:15
Why did my eyes immediately go to that comment box?
16:18
And then like think as a marketer, even while you're the consumer.
16:23
Yeah.
16:24
I got got by a metal Packers sign the other day, a classic, classic UGC
16:29
founder warehouse ad, same thing like every time.
16:32
Right.
16:33
He's like, look, we make these right here in the United States.
16:35
That's really what made me buy.
16:36
I was like, look, I love America.
16:38
So I'm in.
16:40
So, so I think, you know, Courtney, a lot of right now there's this huge shift
16:45
that's happening in reference to moving to partnership ads, you know,
16:48
creators are becoming a massive part of this meta set as much.
16:51
We're going to continue to do this.
16:53
And then, you know, we're recording this in early October and, and, um, the news
17:00
that came out this week or that's been a big discussion point this week is
17:03
different variants on small changes within iterations.
17:07
They're read as the same thing by Andromeda, largely.
17:11
Okay.
17:12
So when you are, let's say that you go in and look at an account, I think there's
17:16
probably people listening to this who have an issue with their, their account.
17:20
They don't know what, how to diagnose it.
17:22
And we've talked about in this podcast, how a lot of it is speaking to different
17:25
personas, having a better offer or changing the offer, innovating on product
17:31
and obviously creative diversity to a larger.
17:34
When you're looking at an account and it's tanking or it's not doing well,
17:39
how do you diagnose if it's like the creator, the script, the offer quickly?
17:45
Yeah.
17:45
I think it's, it's very rarely going to be only one thing and exclusively
17:48
100% that one thing.
17:50
And I think a lot of like in marketing, it's a lot of, it depends and it's a
17:54
lot of multiple things.
17:55
There's lots and lots of variables.
17:57
I would say, I mean, I think it depends on like the account size, the account,
18:01
like previous data, how it normally spends when things normally fatigue.
18:06
It depends if like the offer is proven.
18:08
It depends on like macro factors.
18:10
Are people buying right now?
18:11
Is it a Christmas product, but we're in October and people aren't ready to buy yet.
18:15
Is it a swimsuit and we're going into winter and people aren't ready to buy it.
18:19
So I think there's like so many factors, but if everything else is like pretty
18:24
similar, I will start to look at the soft metrics and figure out like when people
18:29
are, if it's a video, when people are dropping off.
18:32
So like wherever they drop off two seconds before that must have been not
18:36
applicable, boring, confusing something.
18:41
You can also look at like historical trends.
18:43
I like to look at a lot of line graphs and that tells me a lot of like what's
18:46
happening over time, whether it's conversion rate, whether it's purchases,
18:50
whether it's like thumbstop, whether it's so many things.
18:52
And that helps me see like fatigue.
18:54
And so it's really, it's not one metric.
18:56
It's kind of like, I think what makes like, I don't want to say like a unicorn
19:00
of a creative strategist because unicorn is like kind of a red flag, but like what
19:03
makes a good creative strategist is being able to look at 12 different metrics and
19:08
like come up with a story out of those things, because it's not, like I said,
19:12
the one really good ad kind of 20% thumbstop.
19:14
That's really not great.
19:16
But it performed so well that I'm like, I don't mind that the thumbstop is bad
19:21
because everything else was so good.
19:23
So I think it's more of like looking at all of the metrics, soft and hard
19:26
metrics as a story, as all of it says a paragraph or a five paragraphs.
19:34
Like all of it is telling us something.
19:36
And then it's like, it's our job to like figure out what that is.
19:39
I don't necessarily think that it could be the creator, but like part of my
19:43
job when I hire UGC creators is do I trust this person?
19:48
If they were FaceTiming with me, am I getting like bullshit flags or like,
19:52
do I feel like I'm like, Oh my gosh, girlie, I'd love to be your friend.
19:56
You know?
19:57
And so it's like a lot of it is like that intangible of, you know, unfortunately
20:01
I've worked with creators or I've been given their portfolios and I'm like, man,
20:06
I am not buying anything that you're saying in your portfolio.
20:09
And honestly, I don't even know how to tell you to fix it.
20:13
And I should because I also work with a lot of UGC creators, but sometimes I'm
20:17
like, man, she sounds like, or he sounds like they were paid to say this.
20:22
And some people I'm like, Ooh, yes.
20:27
And you can, you can tell that, right?
20:28
Like it's totally true.
20:30
It's totally true.
20:31
I mean, I think to your point, right?
20:33
I think it's a looking at, looking at a lot of different metrics and determining
20:36
like over time where things are dropping off and where the consumer is becoming
20:40
irrelevant, you saying this makes me think about within the creator world.
20:45
And so let's say that you go through and find out that it's, you know, there
20:50
needs to be more diversity in reference to different creators.
20:52
How do you match creators to brand?
20:55
That's like beyond looking, looking at like they're in our niche.
20:59
Like you're looking for that authenticity.
21:01
You're meeting them, right?
21:03
You're, you're like just at a gut level being like, does this feel real?
21:08
Like what other things are you?
21:09
I mean, obviously maybe past performance as well.
21:13
Them, them taking themselves not as seriously.
21:16
I feel like sometimes for me, somebody comes in guns blazing.
21:20
They're like, yeah, I have, you know, I don't know.
21:23
I've done stuff with Adidas or like they lead with like big, you know, you're
21:26
like, okay, I understand that's cool.
21:28
But like, I don't know.
21:30
What are the things you look for to make sure that process goes better?
21:35
Yeah.
21:36
Um, I'm not gonna lie to you.
21:37
If I see a UGC creators portfolio and it has, it leads with the brands they've
21:41
worked with and then the case studies, I bypass that completely because I don't
21:45
care, I don't care what brands you've worked with and I don't care about the
21:47
performance until I care about your content.
21:51
And so like for me and my, cause I also do UGC in my portfolio, my case studies
21:56
are at the very, very bottom because me as a person who is hiring creators.
22:01
I don't really care about your data until I'm like, well, I like this.
22:05
How did it perform?
22:06
I think honestly what most of it is just that gut feeling and that authenticity,
22:10
which is like really hard to teach, but I think it comes with reps, but I'll, I
22:15
will look at a creative portfolio.
22:17
I generally will try to look at a video that is somewhat near the niche of the
22:20
brand that I'm trying to hire for like kitchen products or kids products in
22:25
general, I don't really care if they're in the niche.
22:27
I just kind of care.
22:28
Like, is there something that's like nearby it in terms of like, whether they're
22:32
in the niche, it's like, do you have kids?
22:33
It's a kids brand need that.
22:35
Do you have a spouse who's or partner or friend who's willing to be the spouse
22:39
partner or whatever in this content?
22:41
Cause it's a couple's content or, you know, are you, it's for an athletic company.
22:46
Do you look like you could run a mile?
22:48
Cause some people don't look like they could run a mile and that's okay.
22:51
And so I think part of it is do they look the part?
22:54
I don't really care if they actually do, but like, do they look the part?
22:56
And then it's just a gut feeling of like, when I watch the video, sometimes I only
23:00
make it to 12 seconds in, sometimes I make it all the way through.
23:03
Sometimes I only listen to three seconds
23:04
and I'm like, no, I don't trust your voice.
23:06
And I don't even know how to like explain
23:08
that, but a lot of it is just a gut feeling
23:10
of does this person like radiate authenticity?
23:15
And is this someone that like I'm picking up what they're putting down?
23:18
And so unfortunately a lot of it's intangibles, but the more that you do it
23:22
and the more that you compare performance to UGC creators, the more that you can
23:25
pick up on what's going to work and having a better guesstimate of this
23:30
creator is really awesome.
23:31
I think they're going to do amazing and they just have it.
23:34
It's like this like magic piece of something, just this like UGC magic.
23:40
And like, you just know.
23:42
And then most of the time, many, many times it's right.
23:46
Cause they just have it and it's hard to, it's hard to pinpoint that, but
23:49
the ones that have it had it.
23:51
Is there, I mean, you're in a unique position where you, you are both a
23:56
content creator, you kind of use the term unicorn and you sound gave you,
24:00
a little bit of ick, but I'm going to throw it back at you.
24:02
And maybe, maybe you are the unicorn here because you do create content.
24:05
You're doing creative strategy and you understand the media buying what like
24:08
that's a, that's a really unique lens.
24:10
So like given that context, like what, what are creators not understanding
24:14
about like, what are there some things that just like stand out to you?
24:18
Creators don't understand about what happens on the media buying side.
24:21
Um, yeah, I'm just curious.
24:23
I think creators don't understand the algorithm and not that I do either,
24:27
but there's been plenty of times where I get an ad and I'm like, this is great.
24:32
I love it.
24:33
It's so wonderful.
24:34
We've talked about this in Hype House cohort calls.
24:36
This is amazing.
24:37
I put it in the account and it spends $2.
24:40
And then I'm like, weird algorithm must not let it let me for spend.
24:44
And then it spends a hundred dollars and has not a single ad to cart.
24:48
And I'm like, it's such a good ad.
24:50
Why is this not working?
24:51
And it's frustrating as a media buyer and it's frustrating as a creator, whenever
24:55
they reach back out and they want performance data and you're like, it spent
24:59
$200 didn't get a single purchase.
25:01
And so I had to turn it off or it spent $60 and I can't for spend there
25:06
because it's not working.
25:08
And I think that's something that.
25:10
Doesn't really make sense as a media buyer.
25:13
We know like there's the algorithm and it's just this thing that's there.
25:18
And we have to work around it.
25:20
I was explaining the algorithm to a client yesterday and I was explaining the
25:23
algorithm is kind of like a toddler and you kind of let them do their thing and you
25:28
let them kind of navigate their way through
25:31
life until they're going to like break their
25:32
head open.
25:32
And then you kind of like push them back in
25:34
as a parent and you kind of be like, nope,
25:36
we're going to go this way.
25:37
And the algorithm is kind of that way
25:38
where it's like you let it kind of do its thing
25:41
until it's going to go way off the deep end.
25:43
And then you kind of like correct it with
25:44
like a forced something, whether that's one
25:47
single creative in an ad set, whether it's changing it from campaign budget
25:50
optimization to ad set budget optimization, whether it's something like that.
25:53
But I think creators a lot of times just
25:56
don't understand like, well, why didn't my ad get
25:57
spent? Like it's a good ad.
25:59
Why did it not get spent?
26:00
And that's something where it's like, you
26:02
know, as an ad buyer, I know, okay, I need to make
26:05
I need to make some changes.
26:06
Let me make some pretty big swing changes because I think the magic sauce is there.
26:12
It's just like hidden under like it's like hidden under like the Big Mac bun.
26:16
But like the special sauce is there.
26:17
You just kind of have to like dig a little deeper.
26:19
I'm a really big fan of like metaphors and like visual things.
26:23
But yeah, I think the algorithm and like
26:24
I'll say over and over again, like the best
26:26
creatives serve two masters, the algorithm and the consumer.
26:30
And they have to serve both.
26:32
You can't have a very winning super creative without both of those things.
26:36
And the algorithm is just such a wizard behind the curtain black box.
26:40
But like once it once the algorithm is
26:42
unlocked, it's unlocked, but it's hard to get there.
26:45
And maybe for a creator, that means offering a re-edit.
26:48
Maybe it means offering a very different hook.
26:51
Maybe it means offering a free month of
26:53
whitelisting because it didn't work, but we wanted it to.
26:55
Maybe it means having a meeting with the
26:57
brand and being like, what can we do differently?
26:59
What was working in the past?
27:01
What could we kind of change up?
27:02
What else are you seeing work right now?
27:04
Here's something that I'm seeing work.
27:05
Could we mash this up and make it different?
27:09
So many creators are just like one and done.
27:11
Here's the content.
27:12
But like the algorithm is just this nasty,
27:15
I don't know, black box of smoke that we're
27:18
all just trying to figure out.
27:20
It's funny that you say that because I mean, I
27:22
think everybody's probably been in a situation
27:24
where they feel like I'm about to load in
27:27
this ad that is just going to make me so much
27:29
money.
27:29
Like I'm so pumped to do it.
27:30
And then you do it and you're like, shit, it didn't do anything.
27:34
But like, it's not every time, but I feel
27:36
like going back and then you watch it again
27:38
and you're like, OK, there's something that is off about this.
27:41
Like the hook is missing this piece.
27:43
I just compared it to somebody that did spend a ton.
27:45
And you know, it says these three things in this order.
27:48
And we maybe did this slightly out of order.
27:49
We missed one of those things.
27:50
And I feel like hindsight is always 20 20, obviously.
27:52
But like rewatching it back, you realize,
27:54
OK, there is actually something tangible I
27:57
can take away.
27:57
Maybe I don't have a ton of like thumbs up
27:59
and click the rate data that I can go off
28:00
of.
28:01
But I feel like everybody kind of has a hunch as like why it didn't end up working.
28:04
So to your point, like you can go and
28:06
revisit it with some of those assumptions and then
28:08
just try again.
28:09
And like, for better or worse, like that's the
28:11
state that we're in where it's like, creative
28:13
volume matters.
28:14
So just get back on the horse and give it another shot.
28:17
That's like the super winning creatives that I've had.
28:21
I have like three case studies where like
28:23
the account just could not spend enough on
28:26
this ad because it was just doing so well.
28:28
None of those I went into saying, oh, this is going to be a big winner.
28:32
None of them.
28:33
They were all just like, no, I think it's a good ad.
28:34
We're going to try it.
28:35
And then when you look at it after the fact, it's like, oh, this worked.
28:38
This worked.
28:39
This worked.
28:39
There was a magic sauce of XYZ.
28:42
It did well organically, whatever.
28:44
After the fact, it's like, oh, look, I know exactly why this worked.
28:47
But like you can't when I always laugh when
28:51
a client says, can you make this go viral?
28:52
And I'm like, absolutely not.
28:54
No, because it's so dare I say random of what does work.
28:59
But that's why creative volume is important.
29:01
But I would just caveat that with like,
29:03
while creative volume is important, I will put
29:06
quality above quantity all day, every day for the rest of my life.
29:09
So here's the thing.
29:10
Let's talk about like, you know, you can unit economics of this.
29:13
According to you have an MBA, Brad and I don't because we're dumb.
29:16
So what content, what should content actually cost at different scales?
29:22
And when are brands overpaying versus getting a steal?
29:25
That's a great question.
29:27
Honestly, I would say from the brand side, having to pay ongoing any sort of like
29:32
rev share usage rights, not inclusive of whitelisting.
29:37
And even if it makes logistics difficult, hard no go for me.
29:40
Like if I'm paying you to make the content, I'm not paying you to use it.
29:43
I told somebody one time, what am I going to do?
29:44
I said at home and cuddle it.
29:45
No, I need to use it as an ad.
29:48
Like I don't, I don't, I'm not going to pay usage rights.
29:50
So that's like a hill that I will die on.
29:52
Some people will charge it and I just say, best of luck.
29:54
I'm not doing that.
29:55
And sometimes they'll be like, Oh, okay.
29:57
Now whitelisting is a different, different story because you are using their
30:00
name, image, handle likeness.
30:02
I understand that.
30:03
And that's fine, but just for my usage rights perspective, but in terms of like
30:07
paying for the content, I mean, the bigger the brand, the more you could pay.
30:10
However, I don't think a single piece of UGC is worth more than six, $700 from the
30:19
brand's account, again, not whitelisting.
30:21
Um, it's just, it's hard to make those numbers work and hit rate nowadays.
30:25
Average is so low that like, I recently paid a thousand dollars for a piece of
30:30
content, the content completely flopped.
30:33
Didn't work.
30:33
I told the story.
30:34
This is a different piece of content and I can use it for a year.
30:38
And it spent $270 without a single purchase.
30:43
And I'm like, cool.
30:45
That was a loss for me.
30:46
So I would say generally like 250 to 500 is my sweet spot.
30:51
I'll go a little over that.
30:53
Um, I'll also go over that.
30:54
If the creator is proven for that specific brand, if I'm like this creator
30:58
just like has that magic sauce for this audience, but in term, even like if I
31:03
were to use that same creator for a different brand, they may not resonate
31:07
with that audience.
31:08
So I would say max $500 no matter what, whether that's a 3k a month spending
31:14
brand or for my million dollar a month spending brand, $500 is kind of as much
31:20
as I'm willing to do for use or for like the act, just the content by itself and
31:25
running it as an ad from the brand account, just because it's, it's not worth
31:29
it and like the, the hit rate is not going to match it if you pay more than that.
31:33
What do you get?
31:34
What do you get for the 500?
31:36
Like what is the actual deliverable?
31:37
And I have like many follows to that, but I'm just curious.
31:41
That would be like edited video.
31:42
Normally I would say like edited video with and without text on screen.
31:46
So whether that's subtitles or like headlines or something, I do just like
31:49
one nine by 16 vertical video with like a safe zone in the middle.
31:52
So like I'm not resizing it.
31:54
So edited video.
31:55
I also offer all of my raw e-roll with it because I already shot it and you
32:00
can use it to re-edit it and I'm not charging usage rights.
32:02
So one edited video, one hook, one call to action, raw B roll if you want it.
32:09
And my follow-up question was actually going to be somewhat
32:11
adjacent to the B roll thing.
32:12
I mean, just like to contrast similar, like with the creators that we work with,
32:16
we try, we've tried recently to like script it in a way where we can make
32:19
the content that's being shot go further.
32:21
Like it fits better into a mashup with other creators content.
32:25
It can be used with maybe some AI voiceovers if it's not including like
32:28
the creator's face and stuff in it.
32:30
Right.
32:30
Cause we don't want to, you know, we're not trying to take advantage of people.
32:32
We're just trying to make the content go a little bit further with maybe some of
32:35
the B roll.
32:36
So it's really interesting that you also just like include it, but noted on the
32:39
deliverable, so brands should expect like maybe three to $500 range.
32:43
They can get like a fully edited video.
32:45
Are you scripting it out with that too?
32:47
Are they giving you the full idea?
32:48
They're giving you kind of a loose idea and you're doing it like how, how
32:51
do you get to the end, the end output?
32:52
Yeah.
32:53
Every brand is a little different.
32:54
And some brands have higher brand standards or like brand guidelines and others.
32:59
I prefer to script myself anytime that someone else scripts for me.
33:03
It's like no offense to anyone who's ever scripted for me.
33:06
It sounds dumb and I can't say it and I'm not an actor and I can't
33:10
remember a very specific line.
33:12
If you tell me, Hey, talk about this water bottle and how it's purple and how it.
33:17
Whatever is stainless steel.
33:18
I can, I can do that.
33:19
But if you tell me to say something verbatim, I'm either going to record it as
33:23
a voiceover while I read the script, or I'm going to have to cut it up into
33:27
multiple clips because not an actor.
33:29
I'm a creator.
33:30
And so I prefer scripting myself.
33:31
I think too, there's a, there's a overlap between UGC creator and creative
33:35
strategist, but if I'm paying a creator $500, they better be scripting it
33:41
themselves in order to make it sound authentic.
33:44
I think the more that a creator can script it themselves, the more authentic
33:48
it's going to be.
33:48
I'm not, if I'm, I always try to tell people, I thought your face timing, your
33:53
sister, your brother, your mom, your best friend, talk to, talk to the camera.
33:56
Like it's a normal person, but I can't do that if I'm like remembering a script.
34:00
Cause again, not an actor.
34:02
There's two creators that I work with that are actors that I do script for
34:06
because I know they're an actor and I know that they need a script and they
34:09
remember those lines verbatim every time.
34:11
So that's like the exception.
34:12
But as a creator, I prefer to both give and get as a creator, just like
34:18
bullet point talking points of like, this is the gist of the video.
34:21
This is kind of what we're trying to come up with.
34:23
Here's the talking points of like kind of what we're thinking.
34:26
Have at it.
34:27
What do you think?
34:28
I just think it's so much more authentic.
34:29
If I can say things the way that I communicate without saying any sort
34:34
of like regional isms or anything, like I try to be very, you know, normal.
34:39
But if I have to say something specifically, it comes off as like, this
34:42
person sounds dumb every time when I try to do it.
34:45
Yeah.
34:45
We, one of the things I wanted to ask you is what are the top three things
34:48
that brands do that kill creator performance?
34:50
And this is one, right?
34:51
Like I think being very rigid in terms of what you're looking for is one of
34:56
them, are there two others that, that brands do often that hurt creator
34:59
performance in your opinion?
35:01
I would, my other one that I had in my mind was like making it hard to
35:04
connect to them technically, like making that a mess.
35:08
I don't know what else do you think?
35:10
Um, yeah, definitely like the rigidity of like a script, which some brands have to,
35:14
if they have any sort of like compliance or anything like that, just as part
35:16
of the nature of it.
35:17
So, but like the more rigid they are, the worse it is.
35:20
Um, I, I really try as a creative sorcerer to, um, send the product to
35:25
people who would actually like it.
35:26
So if it's like a diaper bag, I'm going to send it to a mom who has a real kid,
35:30
whether the kid's in it or not, maybe, maybe not depends on the script.
35:34
But I, if I have time, I will say, please use the product for a few days.
35:39
And tell me what you think.
35:40
And then I'll give them talking points, but I also like let them use it.
35:44
Whether they're going to actually use the product and change out their real
35:46
diaper bag, I don't really care, but use it for a few days and tell me what you
35:49
think and also like maybe get some B roll while you go to target or the grocery
35:54
store or the park or whatever, just like being more real.
35:58
So like the scripting also like the rigidity of, of a brief of like, you have
36:02
to get a shot in the car, in the backyard, in the city, going to a coffee shop.
36:07
No creator like wants to do that work and turn that around quickly.
36:12
And then, and then there's also the logistics of like, okay, well, if I go to
36:14
a coffee shop, but I need to film this purse, then I need someone to go with me
36:18
because I need them to film it.
36:20
I'm not going to put my phone on the sidewalk in the middle of a busy city.
36:23
So I think like the rigidity of like, of, of the shot list.
36:27
Um, I think honestly, all of these things are going to be rigidity.
36:30
Also like rigidity of make this exact creative from somebody else, or here's
36:34
this exact script from something else that worked because it worked for one
36:39
creator, it may not sound authentic for every creator, but like, in my opinion,
36:44
that here's my hot take for the day.
36:46
That's a lazy creative strategist to send the same brief to multiple creators.
36:50
Even if it works, customize it to the creator.
36:54
Like I all the time will hire a creator and they're like, okay, what's,
36:56
I can't give you a price.
36:58
I need the brief.
36:59
And I'm like, well, I write the brief based on the creator.
37:02
I hire a creator.
37:03
I look at their portfolio, their Instagram, whatever.
37:06
And I write a brief specific to Sally, John, Joe, whoever, based on other
37:11
things that I've seen, I might even say, I love this video and this
37:14
video in your portfolio.
37:16
What if we did something kind of like that, but different.
37:19
And so for me, I customize them to the creator.
37:22
I think the more honest it is to the creator, the better it's going to come
37:26
across, even if they're an amazing creator,
37:29
if it's more, them, it's going to be better.
37:33
Yeah.
37:33
I mean, you're going to get a better outcome.
37:34
Totally.
37:35
I totally agree with you.
37:36
I think so.
37:37
So right now, the way that a lot of this is with brands is brands have the creator.
37:44
They do, you know, some of them have internal departments.
37:48
Some of them have, that's like a creator management part of it.
37:52
If they're a really bigger brand, some of
37:54
them, it's the founder and doing communication.
37:57
Some of it's, you know, the media buyer doing communication.
38:01
What if, if you were to help brands be more successful in utilizing creators?
38:07
You know, we've talked about some of these things, but like what
38:09
organizationally do you think brands need to understand and set up better?
38:13
Is it that there needs to be a dedicated person for script writing?
38:17
Is it that they shouldn't hire this as some contract position?
38:21
Is it, you know, what, what is it that can make the workflow a lot better for
38:26
everyone involved and to help that brand make more money utilizing creators?
38:30
I think it depends and every brand is so different.
38:32
It depends.
38:33
Um, it also depends if the person, if the brand owner, um, if they enjoy the
38:37
creative process, cause some people really
38:39
do, and it's like this, like for me, it's
38:41
like a, I don't need to do UGC.
38:43
My main job is ad buying and creative strategy, but I take on two or three UGC
38:48
projects a month because it's fun for me and it's an outlet.
38:51
So I think it depends if like the person
38:53
who's currently doing it, the brand owners,
38:54
if they enjoy doing the creative and if they like watching it and they like that
38:57
side of it, if they hate it, sure.
38:59
Outsource it, hire somebody, do that.
39:02
Um, in terms of organizationally, I mean an
39:04
organization like Hivehouse would be great.
39:06
We basically give you the easiest way to connect with tens or hundreds of creators
39:12
or you just type in an opportunity channel.
39:15
Hey, I need this.
39:15
This is the concept I have in mind.
39:17
This is the demographic I need.
39:19
And you literally have creators like land in your threads of just telling you that
39:24
when they have availability, this is my.
39:26
Hivehouseugc.com.
39:27
Hivehouseugc.com.
39:30
Yes.
39:30
So that's one thing that makes it way easier.
39:32
I do a lot of like creator sourcing, but that takes a lot of time, whether you're
39:36
doing it through like the meta creator marketplace, sometimes I just like scroll
39:41
through Twitter, sometimes I just am like scrolling through Instagram.
39:45
Sometimes I go to like competitor.
39:47
Meta ads libraries or go to their website to get retarded with ads.
39:51
And then I see who they're white listing with, but that can take a lot of time.
39:54
So like an organization like Hivehouse, I
39:56
don't know of any others besides Hivehouseugc,
39:59
but I'm sure there could be maybe one day.
40:01
Like getting organizing and like streamlining that process, like finding the
40:05
right creator is really one of the hardest parts.
40:09
So organizationally that could really help.
40:11
Um, but I think it depends what they enjoy, what they like doing, what they
40:14
don't like doing, but like if you hire a good creator, I've literally hired
40:18
creators before and been like, this is kind of what I'm thinking.
40:21
And it's like one sentence.
40:23
My goal of this, this ad is to be, and that's it.
40:28
And then if they're a good creator, they come up with it, but it's so authentic
40:33
because I make sure that like they are the target audience or they are the
40:36
person that the ad is, is depicting them to be.
40:39
Um, so like as a brand owner, don't feel like you have to over complicate it.
40:44
And also the things that a brand owner cares about might be different than
40:49
the things that your customer cares about.
40:50
So like I have a brand and the cut, the brand owners are like, you know,
40:54
if this is how it's made, this is the type of.
40:58
You know, whatever this is where it's sourced at.
41:00
It's maybe it is made in the USA.
41:02
Maybe it's all these other things.
41:04
And they're talking about like the it's patented and this is how much,
41:09
you know, we've sold 50,000, whatever.
41:12
The consumer may not care.
41:14
The consumer may not know what patented means.
41:16
The consumer may not care that it's us made.
41:18
Maybe they do.
41:19
The consumer probably doesn't care that they've made 70 million in revenue
41:23
and that they're in 85,000 stores.
41:25
When most of them are regional and not available for me to purchase
41:28
where I live in my little suburb.
41:30
So I think a lot of times, like the things that brand owners care about may not be
41:34
the same things that like an actual audience would care about.
41:37
And so a creator can kind of help you bridge that gap of like, Hey, I know
41:41
that you love your brand, but like consumers don't care that this is
41:45
patented or that this was the way that you designed it.
41:48
Now there's a whole side of creative that can be found or videos that can explain
41:51
that, but once you're into creator UGC, talk about what the consumer actually
41:56
cares about and maybe it is the price.
41:58
Maybe it is that it's made with stainless steel and not aluminum or plastic.
42:02
Like maybe they do care, but maybe they don't.
42:04
And I think having that new perspective can be really, really helpful.
42:07
Cause a lot of times we all get on our own little lanes of what we care about.
42:11
And as a brand owner, I'm sure you're just like living, breathing, dying that
42:15
product, but it can be really nice to get a second outside new fresh perspective.
42:20
I even do that with brands that I do creative strategy for after a while, I
42:24
can tend to get into this same rigid lane of like, these are the things that works.
42:29
But then if I get a good creator, I'm like, here's the product.
42:32
Here's like what I'm thinking in terms of talking points.
42:35
What do you think?
42:36
And getting that fresh perspective can be so, so helpful.
42:39
Yeah, that makes a ton of sense.
42:42
Where are brands and creators like going wrong?
42:48
Not from like, I mean, you just listed out a bunch of things like related to
42:51
rigidity, I think that's a, I think that's a great point.
42:55
Um, and then also just getting stuck into what they think, as opposed to actually
42:58
doing maybe their own research or getting somebody else to help them with the
43:01
research, but maybe a pivot here is like, okay, there are like legal things to
43:05
consider, whether it's with the creator directly or with what the creators are
43:09
saying or like, uh, and I'm not asking you
43:10
to be a play attorney for everybody here,
43:12
but anything that that brand should be aware of on behalf or as they work with
43:16
creators.
43:17
Yeah.
43:18
I'll preface this with not an attorney.
43:20
Ask your attorney for legal advice.
43:21
Courtney, it has.
43:22
Hachibiti, an actual attorney.
43:24
Yeah.
43:24
Don't, uh, don't take what I say for granted, but whatever.
43:26
Anyways, yes.
43:27
Don't use copyrighted music.
43:29
Full stop.
43:30
Do not use copyrighted music.
43:31
Even like stitching someone else's content can be not okay because you're
43:36
not paying them for their content.
43:38
Even like following trends can be a little sketchy just because you don't
43:43
own the original and like how close you're willing to like fly to the sun
43:46
is like some brands just aren't willing to do that.
43:49
You know, risk tolerance, the bigger the brand, the more likely you are to get
43:52
sued, the more that you're spending, the bigger the brand, the more likely someone
43:56
from somewhere that is being copyrighted is more likely to see it.
44:00
Don't touch anything Disney within a hundred foot pole.
44:03
They will find you even if you are the tiniest creator in the world.
44:06
I do not know this from personal experience, but I have heard of this.
44:09
So don't do that.
44:10
Create your own ideas.
44:11
And that's where like trendy stuff generally doesn't work.
44:14
There's always going to be a nuance.
44:15
I had a brand years ago that had, they did an ad to like that corn meme
44:20
that was going around for that summer.
44:24
And that ad worked for like a year, even after that meme died.
44:28
They shouldn't have done that.
44:29
They should have been in trouble for copyright with that child.
44:32
So, but like trendy stuff, 95% of the time is not going to work.
44:36
Just come up with your own ideas and don't use copyrighted music.
44:39
If you're going to use CapCut, use the commercial license.
44:42
If you don't want to go buy something from bin sounds or whoever,
44:45
but like even like for whitelisting, there's so many times that a creator
44:49
influencer will use a copyrighted song.
44:51
And then I go to whitelist it and then it says, you can't use this song.
44:55
Pick a new one.
44:56
I pick a new one.
44:57
And then it goes over their voiceover.
44:59
So it's just, it's such a mess.
45:01
If as a creator, I usually will send like a, if they want music, I will
45:05
send one version with audio voiceover, no music and one with music.
45:11
But most of the time I don't include music unless they specifically say
45:14
to you because I'm not trying to do music stuff.
45:18
The, the labels and the publishers Warner
45:20
brothers and Sony will get you every time.
45:22
So don't do that.
45:23
So number one, I always interrupt Courtney
45:25
if everybody, anybody was listening to this
45:26
at the end of her sentences, because I
45:28
always get really excited to talk to Courtney.
45:30
So Courtney, I perpetually apologize for the rest of my life for doing this.
45:36
It's so excited about all the things that you're sharing.
45:40
I'd like to bring us on to the end and kind of ending segment here that we
45:44
like to go on, which is called beefs, which is we bring up like beefs of things
45:47
and people, and you know, one thing that you've been very vocal about with me.
45:52
And I think generally speaking is, you know, the media buying bro universe.
45:56
You were going to say that.
45:59
And, uh, I just wanted to like, you know, ask if you, if there's anything you want
46:04
to say about the creator world or about the media buying bro or the brand
46:08
owner bros or whatever, that you are like, Hey, wake up people.
46:14
And that you feel like, picture, since Zach's not here, you can just picture him
46:17
as you say all of this.
46:18
Yeah, yeah, picture him.
46:20
He's, he's the worst.
46:21
Anything that you want to get out there.
46:22
Cause I think your voice, you know, is really important and you, you have brought
46:26
a lot of stuff to my attention that honestly is just like blind ignorance on
46:30
my part and that's kind of inexcusable because I'm not thinking about it.
46:33
So I just wanted to give you the opportunity to bring that up.
46:36
Literally always.
46:37
Um, thank you for giving me a platform to air all of my dirty laundry.
46:43
One thing is like, as a female in this like predominantly male industry,
46:47
females can feel a little silenced or feel overwhelmed.
46:52
So like we recently started a women in marketing, um, channel in the
46:56
founders community that Andrew is not allowed to be a part of.
46:58
And I told him, no, he said, can I be in it?
47:00
And I said, are you a woman?
47:02
And he said, well, no.
47:03
And I said, then no, I will tell you if you need to know anything.
47:06
And it has been such wonderful conversation of females who just aren't
47:10
comfortable saying this in a male dominated industry, because generally
47:14
speaking, men are more confident.
47:16
We know this men are also more willing to be a little confrontational.
47:21
Whereas females are maybe a little bit less, um, less abrasive.
47:25
They're less willing to take risks.
47:27
We've had a lot of really, really good conversations.
47:29
So if you are a female in marketing, like it's such a breath of fresh air.
47:34
No offense.
47:35
A little offense, but it's so, so refreshing.
47:39
So that's one thing is like, also, if you're in the founders membership
47:41
and you're not in that channel, DM me, I tried to add everyone that I could,
47:44
but it's private, so I didn't even announce it.
47:47
So it's kind of on the DL.
47:49
So for our tens of listeners, here's your inside information.
47:52
Nice.
47:53
I love it.
47:54
I think in general males are more likely to be louder in our industry and
48:00
they're more likely to share trends and this like grow in public type thing.
48:06
And in my experience, I, I don't, I don't grow in public.
48:12
I don't share a lot of what's working because there are so many nuances and
48:17
there's so many statements of it depends.
48:20
And I think men in the industry generally are likely to, or more likely to
48:24
generalize, Oh, this is working.
48:27
Whereas females are more like, no, it's, it's not working yet.
48:30
It's not at scale.
48:31
And it's maybe a confidence issue, which
48:32
is I, I get it's a lot of imposter syndrome.
48:35
But in my opinion, my beef with marketing bros is like, get off Twitter and get off
48:40
LinkedIn and go work because I can't be managing my accounts and doing a good job
48:45
for my clients, if I'm always over here trying to get retweets or re X's or
48:50
whatever they're called now, and I know this is going to be a really hot take
48:53
for a lot of people listening, but like my clients, they'll be like, Oh, I
48:58
saw this on Twitter.
48:58
Did you hear this?
49:00
I heard this person talk at a recent conference.
49:04
Here's everything they said.
49:05
Why aren't we doing that?
49:07
And I will like one turn red, but I also will be like there.
49:12
This person has one way of doing things male, one way of doing things.
49:18
And in marketing, there is so much nuance.
49:21
Every single account is so, so different.
49:24
And I think it's men are more likely
49:26
generally to just be like, this is the way to do it.
49:29
I've even had brands that I'm managing founders, owners, clients, agencies,
49:35
whoever take like a case study of mine post about it publicly.
49:41
And it's not actually correct.
49:43
And I'm like, that's, that's puffed up.
49:45
That's beefed up because that's not true.
49:47
That is not what happened.
49:48
So I think as a takeaway is like what you
49:52
see publicly, and this is for males or females.
49:54
What you see publicly is probably not the real story.
49:57
So when you take it to your ad buyer, your
49:59
creative strategist, or you say, we want to
50:00
make this because so-and-so said they got a six X ROAS.
50:04
I guarantee you they didn't, but they're saying it because they want attention.
50:08
And I think generally marketing bro beef is
50:11
that generally marketing bros want attention.
50:13
They want clout.
50:14
They want impressions.
50:16
They're looking at their analytics of their profiles.
50:19
But I think just like a takeaway is like,
50:21
don't always trust everything you see on the
50:23
internet.
50:24
We should know this by now.
50:24
It's a stranger danger for the females out there.
50:27
You might be doing better than you think.
50:29
You're just not as loud.
50:30
You're maybe maybe a little bit more
50:31
honest and a little bit more nuanced and men are
50:34
more likely to generalize.
50:36
And I think in my opinion, that's what like
50:38
this, like women's channel has been so great
50:40
for is like being honest and saying like, this is actually what I'm seeing.
50:45
Or someone sometimes people have posted, I was not comfortable posting this in this
50:49
other channel because I thought I knew who was going to respond to it.
50:53
And I didn't really want to hear from them.
50:54
So what do you guys think?
50:55
Or I even posted in there, I am the
50:57
community manager of the Foxwell founders and there
50:59
have been times that I say, I didn't want to post this.
51:02
What do you guys think?
51:03
And it's been such a nice, honest space.
51:06
And so I think the more that men generally,
51:09
the more that men can be a little bit less,
51:12
you know, male peacock.
51:13
Look at me and a little bit more honest and rant.
51:17
I think a lot of what you said is really important for people to hear.
51:20
And I am very appreciative of you sharing it.
51:22
You know, you're somebody that I deeply respect and you never hold back in sharing
51:26
your opinion in our relationship and in the business.
51:29
And I think we've benefited from it.
51:32
So I think it's a good thing.
51:33
And I think it is something to be aware of.
51:35
I mean, you know, I was thinking about last
51:37
night so much of just how much the ego takes
51:40
over, right?
51:41
And in all this and how you just have to be really conscious of it.
51:45
I mean, Zach put out a tweet the other day
51:47
that was essentially like, keep doing good
51:49
work, keep helping people.
51:51
And just like I replied with a gif of like a
51:53
dog just laying bricks, you know, like that's
51:56
that's what I think good work comes down to.
51:58
Right. It's just like doing good work over time, compounding on itself.
52:02
So I appreciate you sharing that.
52:05
How how do I mean, there's a ton that we
52:07
didn't cover here, but how do people get a hold of
52:10
you and what's the way that they can find out more about you and chatting with you?
52:15
Yeah, the easiest way I'm going to respond is in the founders community.
52:19
Fun Slack.
52:20
So you got to join.
52:21
Yeah. And then you can also email me, Courtney at AxiomMarketing.co.com.
52:26
If you want to email me, I will respond
52:27
quickly on email, but Slack on founders or an email.
52:31
But feel free to tweet or LinkedIn me, but it's going to be a second to respond.
52:35
Courtney, thank you for joining us today.
52:37
Thank you guys so much.
52:38
Thanks for having me.
52:46
This episode is brought to you by Brad's company, Work Marketing.
52:50
If you need a DTC marketing agency, let me
52:52
tell you Homestead is great, but work marketing is
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also fantastic.
52:57
And let me tell you, you aren't going to find
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friendlier people out there in the e-commerce
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space. So we decided to do these little ads for each other's companies.
53:07
So hopefully you find it interesting, but seriously, great team at work marketing.
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Very smart.
53:12
Brad and Jordan are incredibly dialed in.
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I just gave them a lead.
53:16
Already made this brand that I gave them.
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Like, I don't even know, double, double revenue that they had the previous month or
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something. So, you know, it's very exciting to be connected with Brad.
53:27
And if you need a great agency, there's really no one better.
53:30
Zach, anything to comment on work marketing?
53:32
Yeah.
53:33
I mean, if you want an agency that cares
53:35
about your business much more than they care
53:37
about their own website, I just tried to load workmarketing.com and it was broken.
53:41
So they're definitely going to give more of
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a shit about your business than their own.
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So I highly recommend Brad and the team over at work.
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They've been incredible.
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We've referred a lot of business over to them as well.
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Really, really good as far as like cracking
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funnels and figuring out like rapid growth
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for brands. So I recommend these guys.
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54:09
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54:11
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54:15
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54:26
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54:28
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54:30
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54:31
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54:32
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54:33
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54:35
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54:38
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54:41
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54:42
Thanks for listening, honestly.