Latest / hol+ with Dr. Taz MD | The Future of Medicine is Holistic / Unresolved Trauma: Why We Repeat Painful Relationship Patterns and How to Begin Healing with Dr. Gillian O’Shea Brown

Transcript

Unresolved Trauma: Why We Repeat Painful Relationship Patterns and How to Begin Healing with Dr. Gillian O’Shea Brown · hol+ with Dr. Taz MD | The Future of Medicine is Holistic

• [00:00:00] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Trauma is not just what happens to you, it's what you carry in the inside in the absence of a [00:00:05] compassionate witness. It's the aloneness that makes it a traumatic experience. [00:00:09] Dr. Taz: [00:00:10] Interesting. [00:00:10] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: My personal definition of trauma- [00:00:13] Dr. Taz: Uh-huh ... [00:00:13] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: is when the past intrudes [00:00:15] on the present. [00:00:15] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:00:16] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And for some people, that is the memory they keep avoiding.[00:00:20] [00:00:20] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It is the fear they live in. It is their shame-based cognition. Trauma always leaves behind [00:00:25] clues. [00:00:25] Dr. Taz: Mm. My next guest, Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown, is originally [00:00:30] from Ireland, a New York-based psychotherapist, an NYU adjunct [00:00:35] professor, and an EMDR-approved consultant who [00:00:40] specializes in complex and relational trauma. [00:00:42] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Traumatic memories are not metabolized. We [00:00:45] keep replaying the most painful part over and over again. If you had a huge lunch- [00:00:49] Dr. Taz: [00:00:50] Right ... [00:00:50] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: and it just didn't metabolized and it kept repeating- [00:00:52] Dr. Taz: Yeah ... [00:00:53] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: traumatic memories are kinda [00:00:55] like that. They don't feel like they're archived in the back of your mind. They're fragmented and [00:01:00] very vivid, and they're not in the past. [00:01:02] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It almost feels like you're actively reliving them. [00:01:05] [00:01:05] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:01:05] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And you haven't kind of established that it's in the past and I'm safe now. You're [00:01:10] actively reliving it. [00:01:11] Dr. Taz: Please join me in welcoming Dr. Gill to the [00:01:15] show as we explore how your psyche might be driving your [00:01:20] health, your family's health, and your relationships. [00:01:23] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: This episode is sponsored by [00:01:25] HolPlus, a holistic health platform built around education, personalization, [00:01:30] and integrative care. HolPlus blends holistic, [00:01:33] Dr. Taz: integrative, and functional [00:01:35] medicine clinics with learning resources like blogs, YouTube videos, and of course this [00:01:40] podcast, so you're not just treated, you're informed. [00:01:43] Dr. Taz: The platform also includes [00:01:45] holistic health quizzes and a curated wellness shop, helping you make choices that support your [00:01:50] body at the root level. HolPlus is holistic healthcare designed [00:01:55] for real life. Visit us at HolPlus.co to learn more about the [00:02:00] platform. Again, that's W-H-O-L-P-L-U-S dot C-O. [00:02:03] Dr. Taz: And Jill, welcome to the [00:02:05] show. [00:02:06] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here. [00:02:08] Dr. Taz: Well, I'm really [00:02:10] excited to learn about your work and what you do. One of the things that has continued to [00:02:15] fascinate me, I've, you know, been in the space for a while. I've been a doctor for probably 30 [00:02:20] years, I've been in the integrative holistic space for 20, and the longer I practice and work with [00:02:25] people, you realize that it's not all about lab work and physical [00:02:30] symptoms and things we can touch and feel. [00:02:32] Dr. Taz: There's a whole different element to health and healing, [00:02:35] and it's continued to fascinate me, right? Why does one person get better? Why does one [00:02:40] person not? Why is one person stuck? Why is somebody else not? What are the patterns in their [00:02:45] life that are keeping them in a particular situation? And so, again, I [00:02:50] haven't spent a ton of time exploring it, right? [00:02:52] Dr. Taz: But, but I know that there's something [00:02:55] there, and I know that there are other forces driving us and determining our health and our relationships [00:03:00] and, you know, what we see in the exam room, what we see at work, what we see in our homes. [00:03:05] And so your work really fascinated me with kind of what you are doing with trauma and [00:03:10] recovery, understanding the psyche. [00:03:12] Dr. Taz: So tell us a little bit about how you fell into [00:03:15] this and, you know, what you're hoping people will start to learn and understand. [00:03:19] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Wow, [00:03:20] what an lovely opener. Um, I just wanna say as well, 30 years of practice [00:03:25] with a curious and compassionate heart, you can really see that you're looking for root causes. [00:03:29] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:03:30] [00:03:30] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: You're looking for the whole system and the story behind the story. [00:03:35] And, um, that kind of compassionate care is exactly what I wanted to bring into the [00:03:40] book. Um, I'd been working with trauma survivors, um, in one way or [00:03:45] another for about 15 years, and, uh, what I learned early on is that [00:03:50] the deepest pain that a lot of us encounter in life is the pain [00:03:55] within close relationships- Mm-hmm [00:03:56] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: or so-called relational trauma, the bite that fits the [00:04:00] wound, the death by a thousand cuts that happens in relationships. And, [00:04:05] um, this led me to researching complex trauma and bringing out a [00:04:10] textbook with NYU, um, in 2021 called Healing Complex [00:04:15] PTSD: A Clinician's Guide. [00:04:16] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:04:17] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Um, but it's very anticlimactic- Uh-huh [00:04:19] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: to bring out [00:04:20] a textbook- Yeah ... because your students are gonna F5 search term what they want. [00:04:23] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:04:24] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Probably [00:04:25] you and your editor might be the only ones that read it. [00:04:27] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:04:28] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And, um, that was even before [00:04:30] AI. [00:04:30] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:04:30] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Um- [00:04:31] Dr. Taz: And now you just AI it, like, "What does this book say?" [00:04:32] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Exactly, [00:04:32] Dr. Taz: yeah. You [00:04:33] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: know? So. Yeah, tell me the answer, write my [00:04:35] essay. [00:04:35] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Yeah. Um, so then I had my own kids and, um, I was at home with the [00:04:40] kids. And after food, after protection, after nurturance, the first thing [00:04:45] we all crave is stories. [00:04:46] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:04:46] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Stories are how we connect. They're how we understand [00:04:50] ourselves and others. And as a fun maternity leave project, I was [00:04:55] trying to turn my textbook into almost like Aesop's Fables or fairy tales or [00:05:00] folklore, something that anyone could access. [00:05:03] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Because growing up in [00:05:05] Ireland, um, I was always told folklore, fables, and they [00:05:10] were never just stories. Interesting. There was always a philosophical meaning. [00:05:13] Dr. Taz: Uh-huh. [00:05:13] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So the very first [00:05:15] chapter of the original textbook, which is attachment, who y- "Who are you in love and relationships?" [00:05:20] I thought, "What's the simplest way of, you know, translating this?" [00:05:24] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And [00:05:25] I thought, "Hmm, the difference between narcissism versus self-love," 'cause people are so afraid, "If I love [00:05:30] myself, I'll be a narcissist." [00:05:31] Dr. Taz: Right, [00:05:31] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: right. And that's simply not true. Narcissists actually deeply [00:05:35] hate themselves. [00:05:35] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:05:36] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: But of course, the word narcissist Freud got from [00:05:40] the Greek myth Narcissus and Echo. [00:05:41] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:05:42] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And every- I remember [00:05:43] Dr. Taz: reading that, that [00:05:43] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: story You remember that? [00:05:45] Yes, [00:05:45] Dr. Taz: yeah. I- I used to love all the mythology and all [00:05:47] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: the stories, yeah, yeah It's a perfect codependent relationship- Yeah ... of [00:05:50] a narcissist and an empath- Yeah ... getting locked in together. That's where the diagnoses come from. [00:05:55] And Freud- Wow [00:05:56] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: and Carl Jung actually took a lot of Greek mythology, and a [00:06:00] lot of the footprints of psychology come from Greek myth. [00:06:03] Dr. Taz: Hmm, [00:06:05] interesting. So where, so tell, tell us a little bit more how you developed [00:06:10] this idea out, and what were you uncovering [00:06:15] as you were telling the story? [00:06:16] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It honestly felt like a really fun puzzle piece, um, [00:06:20] because the textbook was how I would personally work with a survivor of [00:06:25] complex trauma in, you know, the therapy room, which is first, you know, being open [00:06:30] to self-love, the concept of self-love, um, understanding your [00:06:35] psychological Achilles heel. [00:06:35] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:06:36] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Um, and when a person goes into a therapy room, [00:06:40] it's almost like you're reading a book or watching a movie, and through the eyes of the hero, [00:06:45] through the eyes of the hero, you watch the story unfold. As they're telling it. And these, as they're telling it. [00:06:50] Okay. And they all have these core negative beliefs, but they, you don't come out of the womb with [00:06:55] those. [00:06:55] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: You learn them through painful life experiences. [00:06:57] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:06:58] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And they're all attached to what are [00:07:00] called touchstone memories. Um, everybody has five to 10 memories in their life [00:07:05] responsible for all of the pain, and processing each one is like taking a log out of the [00:07:10] fire. The other thing about the way that we move through the world is that we are often reliving the [00:07:15] same version of pain over and over again, or what I call the bite that fits the wound. [00:07:19] Dr. Taz: [00:07:20] Mm-hmm. [00:07:20] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So I wanted to take 11 core psychological principles [00:07:25] that methodically bring you to a healing journey- And [00:07:30] interweave them with Greek myth because I feel like all of these Greek [00:07:35] mythological stories, you might think you don't know Greek myth, but then you read the book and you go, [00:07:40] "Aha, I remember now." [00:07:41] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And from a place of familiarity, you then build on it [00:07:45] by learning something new about yourself and use a self-healing technique. [00:07:49] Dr. Taz: [00:07:50] Wow. So 11, there are 11 core biological or [00:07:55] psychological hits. Do I have that right? Am I saying it correctly? Yeah, there's [00:07:59] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: 11- [00:07:59] Dr. Taz: Okay ... [00:07:59] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: core [00:08:00] principles. [00:08:00] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:08:01] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And they're all methodical, like steps of a staircase. [00:08:04] Dr. Taz: And so if [00:08:05] you've experienced trauma- Mm-hmm ... or if you've been in that situation, do you end up [00:08:10] planting on one of these 11? Or can people have multiple patterns that [00:08:15] they start to absorb or start to, you know, uh, embrace as they move through life? [00:08:20] Tell us a little bit about what's happening. [00:08:21] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: That's a very good question. [00:08:22] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Yeah. My personal definition of trauma- [00:08:24] Dr. Taz: [00:08:25] Uh-huh ... [00:08:25] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: is when the past intrudes on the present. [00:08:27] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:08:28] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And for some people, that is [00:08:30] their, the memory they keep avoiding. It is the fear they live in. [00:08:35] It is their shame-based cognition, their intrusive thoughts, their flashbacks. Trauma always leaves [00:08:40] behind clues. [00:08:40] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:08:41] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: The book was a way of demystifying trauma [00:08:45] healing for people that are too scared to go into the therapy room, or they just want all the [00:08:50] information, and they want the power to do it themselves. Yeah. 'Cause I, my philosophy [00:08:55] as a therapist- [00:08:55] Dr. Taz: Okay ... [00:08:56] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: has always been a little bit like when [00:09:00] Michelangelo carved the David, and he said, "The angel was always in the marble, and I carved [00:09:05] until I set it free." [00:09:06] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:09:06] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And I believe that under your fears, [00:09:10] traumas, defense mechanisms, your authentic self is there waiting to be [00:09:15] rediscovered. [00:09:15] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:09:15] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And that there's a sleeping hero within all of us waiting- Hmm ... to be [00:09:20] reawoken. And the book is just an, a guide for you to become your [00:09:25] own healer. [00:09:26] Dr. Taz: So walk us through that process because I meet so many people who have different [00:09:30] types of trauma, right? [00:09:30] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. And sometimes it's not, and I'd be [00:09:35] curious to see what you see about this, sometimes we think of trauma as this big event, right? Like something major [00:09:40] happened. Yeah. Like there was a divorce or there was abandonment or [00:09:45] whatever. Mm-hmm. It's like some major, major thing. But trauma can also be [00:09:50] something smaller that you are just locked into and you keep thinking about [00:09:55] over and over again, or it's just in your psyche over and over again. [00:09:59] Dr. Taz: How does [00:10:00] somebody, how do we help people listening and watching, how do we help them identify, [00:10:05] you know, where they are positioning themselves today- [00:10:07] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Yeah ... [00:10:08] Dr. Taz: with trauma? [00:10:10] [00:10:10] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Well, that's actually a beautiful question, and you give, you know, the example of the [00:10:15] big T trauma. Right. Like let's say a divorce where the rug gets pulled from under [00:10:20] you. [00:10:20] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Right. You have an ego death. You don't know who you are, who your friends are, what you're gonna [00:10:25] do. [00:10:25] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:10:25] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And you just feel like you're free falling through life. And, um, one of the [00:10:30] mainframes I love to use in therapy is EMDR. Mm-hmm. Eye movement desensitization and [00:10:35] reprocessing. And in that type of therapy, there's something really kind of magical happens [00:10:40] in that you have the core memory you come in with, and let's say it is the [00:10:45] divorce, and there's a core negative belief, and maybe that's, "I'm alone. [00:10:49] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: I'm not in [00:10:50] control. I'm not lovable." And you look at the intensity, and what happens in [00:10:55] EMDR is that you float, you involuntarily float back to an [00:11:00] earlier touchstone memory that was reminiscent of that time. You go way [00:11:05] back. [00:11:05] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:11:05] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: The prologue of the story always gives you all the information you could ever [00:11:08] Dr. Taz: want. [00:11:09] Dr. Taz: So before the incident [00:11:10] actually happened. [00:11:10] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Exactly. Okay. That big T trauma is often the bite that fits the [00:11:15] wound, and there's an earlier memory behind the memory, and there's a part of you [00:11:20] that got stuck in that painful moment. [00:11:22] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:11:22] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: There's a part of you that still feels like a frightened [00:11:25] little child that's alone all over again. [00:11:26] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:11:27] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And, um, the mapping of these [00:11:30] memories and the compassionate witnessing of the self is, you know, one of [00:11:35] the biggest parts of trauma healing 'cause you can only outwardly accept the love that [00:11:40] you inwardly believe you deserve, and a lot of this is an inside job. There are [00:11:45] aspects of the past you haven't forgiven yourself for or compassionately [00:11:50] witnessed yourself in, and the book teaches really a manual of [00:11:55] self-love and self-forgiveness, you know, that inner alchemy of [00:12:00] turning wounds into wisdom, pain into purpose- Mm-hmm [00:12:02] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: and shame into self-forgiveness. [00:12:03] Dr. Taz: And this is a process we can [00:12:05] do on our own? [00:12:05] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Yes. But there are some memories, and I do mention this in the book, where [00:12:10] if there's a lot of flashbacks, somatizations, intrusive thoughts, [00:12:15] it would be recommended to go through it with a certified EMDR therapist. [00:12:19] Dr. Taz: [00:12:20] Mm-hmm. [00:12:20] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Um, however, I think the book is at least a wonderful primer for you [00:12:25] getting to know yourself. [00:12:26] Dr. Taz: Interesting. And I wanna get into the relational aspect [00:12:30] too, 'cause I know y- uh, the book focuses a lot on that, but before we do, help us understand [00:12:35] EMDR a little bit better because a lot of people, you know, will come in and ask questions. They wanna [00:12:40] know- Yeah ... what it is, how it works, how many sessions, who do they go to. [00:12:43] Dr. Taz: Can you break that down for us a little [00:12:45] bit more? Absolutely. [00:12:45] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So- So, um, EMDR was created by Francine Shapiro in [00:12:50] the 1980s And, um, I love the origin story of it, and it won't [00:12:55] be a whole cr- history lesson- Yeah ... but I'll give you a quick overview. It's [00:12:57] Dr. Taz: interesting. I love it, yeah. [00:12:58] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: She was in NYU [00:13:00] studying a PhD in English lit- literature. [00:13:02] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: She got a cancer diagnosis, [00:13:05] and she was in a state of shock. She was just completely didn't feel [00:13:10] in control. And she went for a walk out in the countryside, [00:13:15] and she noticed that when she saccadically moved her eyes back and forth, there was [00:13:20] some kind of a correlation between that and desensitizing her [00:13:25] emotions. [00:13:25] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:13:26] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So then she spent the next 10 years undertaking [00:13:30] qualitative research and study on emotional desensitization and saccadic [00:13:35] eye movements. However, in the end, what happened was that she developed [00:13:40] a therapeutic modality that took from a lot of other modalities. It took from, [00:13:45] um, you know, the power of our words, the eye movements. [00:13:49] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It was a [00:13:50] mind-body process that is essentially eight steps where you first [00:13:55] help someone to create safety in their body. [00:13:58] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:13:59] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And then [00:14:00] from there you identify positive resources, 'cause you would not go [00:14:05] mountain biking without knowing where the brakes are. [00:14:06] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:14:07] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So you kind of install the positive feeling state [00:14:10] of feeling safe, of a warm nurturing figure, of [00:14:15] containment, which is something I really like, which is one memory at a time. [00:14:18] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It's like if you were [00:14:20] untangling a ball of necklaces. [00:14:21] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:14:21] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: You don't untangle all of them, you just do one at a time. Memories are [00:14:25] like that, 'cause you might get emotionally flooded. And then from there you choose the [00:14:30] lowest hanging fruit. And there's, um, a technique in the book that I use called mapping [00:14:35] out your psychological Achilles heel. [00:14:36] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:14:37] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Which is basically that if you have a [00:14:40] core negative belief, and we all have them, and it could be, "I'm not in control, I'm not lovable, [00:14:45] um, I'm not good enough," you write down three to five times in your life when you felt this [00:14:50] way to a timeline, almost like the headlines of a newspaper. [00:14:53] Dr. Taz: Interesting. [00:14:54] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And these are the [00:14:55] moments when that belief became formed. But when you're doing EMDR, you don't [00:15:00] start with the most traumatic and painful thing that ever happened to you. You start with a low-hanging [00:15:05] fruit, a seemingly innocuous memory. Something on that [00:15:07] Dr. Taz: timeline. [00:15:07] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Something small. Uh-huh. Something on the timeline that [00:15:10] feels manageable. [00:15:11] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It feels like a nice starting point. And from there [00:15:15] you use the bilateral stimulation. So bilateral stimulation is [00:15:20] essentially the eyes m- moving back and forth, almost like, let's say, Dr. [00:15:25] Mesmer, the original hypnotist. [00:15:26] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:15:26] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: The eyes are moving back and forth. When this happens, the [00:15:30] left and right hemispheres of the brain are being stimulated. [00:15:32] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: You're able to metabolize memories, [00:15:35] because tr- traumatic memories are not metabolized. We keep replaying the most [00:15:40] painful part over and over again. [00:15:42] Dr. Taz: What do you mean by metabolized? I, like, literally see, like, [00:15:45] a pathway breaking something down. What do you mean by metabolized? [00:15:48] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So if you had a huge [00:15:50] lunch- [00:15:50] Dr. Taz: Right [00:15:50] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: let's say you had a, a big pizza or a burrito, and it just didn't [00:15:55] metabolized and it kept repeating. [00:15:56] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:15:57] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Traumatic memories are kinda like that. They [00:16:00] don't feel like they're archived in the back of your mind. They're fragmented and very vivid, [00:16:05] and they're not in the past. It almost feels like you're actively reliving them. [00:16:08] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:16:09] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And you [00:16:10] haven't kind of- Establish that it's in the past and I'm safe now. You're actively [00:16:15] reliving it. So we call this unmetabolized. Um, an example I used to [00:16:20] give, um, is that people often remember where they were during, let's say, 9/11- [00:16:24] Dr. Taz: [00:16:25] Right ... [00:16:25] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: or maybe when they realized how serious the pandemic was, but then you [00:16:30] won't remember what you had for breakfast last Tuesday. [00:16:32] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:16:32] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Some things are front and center because [00:16:35] they're neurobiologically timestamped as a time when you didn't feel safe, and [00:16:40] other things are archived in the past. I'm safe now. [00:16:42] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:16:43] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So these unmetabolized [00:16:45] memories are moments in your life when you didn't feel safe, so they're more vivid. They might come up as a [00:16:50] dream, a flashback, an intrusive thought, a shame-based belief. [00:16:54] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:16:54] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: [00:16:55] So, um, once you identify some of these memories and you [00:17:00] have, let's say, the five to 10 logs in the fire that the pain that you, that's [00:17:05] created in your life, you then start by processing them one at a time. Start with the lowest [00:17:10] hanging fruit. And in EMDR, you have one foot in the present, [00:17:15] one foot in the past, and you're compassionately witnessing your earlier self from a place of [00:17:20] safety, and you're often rescuing, healing, and affirming them in the way [00:17:25] they need it. [00:17:26] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So for example, if you had a core negative belief of, "I'm not in [00:17:30] control"- [00:17:30] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ... [00:17:30] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: maybe part of that is a divorce, but maybe also there's really [00:17:35] early memories- Right ... of feeling disconnected, and you start to go back into an early [00:17:40] touchstone memory And if you are compassionately witnessing your [00:17:45] earlier self, you know, through loving eyes, being with the par- with that [00:17:50] earlier part of you in the way they needed someone to be with them, you're creating a [00:17:55] nurturing experience. [00:17:55] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Because trauma is not just what happens to you, it's what you carry in the [00:18:00] inside in the absence of a compassionate witness. [00:18:02] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:18:03] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It's the aloneness [00:18:05] that makes it a traumatic experience. [00:18:07] Dr. Taz: Interesting. If you're listening to [00:18:10] this and thinking, "I know something is off in my body, but I don't know [00:18:15] where to start," this is for you. [00:18:17] Dr. Taz: That's why I created the Circle. [00:18:20] The Circle is my private community where I and my team focus on understanding your [00:18:25] body from hormones and stress to metabolic health and longevity with real-life [00:18:30] guidance that you can actually use. This is about clarity and consistency and [00:18:35] support beyond the exam room and maybe outside of all the different [00:18:40] appointments and experts that you've been running around to. [00:18:42] Dr. Taz: You can try the Circle with a one-month [00:18:45] trial using the promo code Podcast at [00:18:50] HolPlus.co/circle. Again, that's HolPlus, [00:18:55] HolPlus.co/circle. All right, let's jump back into the episode. It's interesting, too, in [00:19:00] research we know that trauma triggers inflammation, right? Mm-hmm. Like, it, it rise, it [00:19:05] raises inflammatory markers. [00:19:06] Dr. Taz: It can be the precursor to so many different diseases from heart [00:19:10] disease to autoimmune disease, even to cancers as well. [00:19:12] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Yes. [00:19:13] Dr. Taz: Now, when you're going down, when you're [00:19:15] mapping these memories, like the psych- uh, what did you call it? The psychol- The [00:19:20] psychological Achilles heel. Psychological Achilles heel. [00:19:22] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Yeah. [00:19:23] Dr. Taz: You know, are you [00:19:25] able to understand what that core negative belief is and then be able to pull that [00:19:30] out and start to work on it? [00:19:32] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Well, you know, it's interesting. Sometimes the target [00:19:35] isn't an I am belief. [00:19:36] Dr. Taz: Uh-huh. [00:19:36] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Sometimes it's kind of like you get this burning [00:19:40] sensation in your throat around certain people, places, and things. [00:19:43] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Sometimes it's a [00:19:45] sensation. Sometimes it's an image. But I feel like the I am beliefs always come out when you're [00:19:50] witnessing someone's life story. [00:19:51] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:19:51] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And as you said, um, when you're [00:19:55] chronically walking on eggshells for a very long time- Um, your body is [00:20:00] going to prioritize survival over replenishment, and [00:20:05] you're gonna become chronically inflamed. [00:20:07] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And the correlation between complex [00:20:10] trauma, chronic stress, and autoimmune diseases is very well evidenced. Right. [00:20:15] And it creates so much pain in the body, and what we're ultimately trying to do [00:20:20] is create safety in the body. [00:20:21] Dr. Taz: Mm. Working with clients, [00:20:25] how long does a process like this take to help them turn, turn [00:20:30] this in a different direction, bring that response down, maybe even bring [00:20:35] inflammation markers down? [00:20:36] Dr. Taz: What have you witnessed? [00:20:37] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Well, I feel like the very beginning of EMDR, [00:20:40] you're mind mapping. [00:20:41] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:20:41] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: You're creating safety in the body. Sometimes you get more [00:20:45] complex cases where you have aspects of dissociation or you have a lot of destructive [00:20:50] behaviors. [00:20:50] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:20:51] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: That's, uh, they would obviously be a longer timeline. [00:20:54] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: [00:20:55] But if you don't have, um, let's say, destructive behaviors at play, [00:21:00] um, you can actually begin to see relief even in the first three months. [00:21:05] Wow. 'Cause within that time, you've resourced someone, [00:21:10] you have grounded them, you have ... They know what ... [00:21:15] They basically know the story they tell themselves about themselves, where it came from, what are the core [00:21:20] beliefs. [00:21:20] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And at that point, they're maybe been able to process a few memories, compassionately [00:21:25] witness a few memories. And the lovely thing about EMDR is that the more [00:21:30] that you do it, the more there's a well-woven pathway. It's familiar, you know how it [00:21:35] goes, and every memory that you process is a little bit quicker than the, the [00:21:40] previous one. [00:21:41] Dr. Taz: So when you're working on this, [00:21:45] do you have to do the eye movements at the same time? Is that a necessary part of EMDR [00:21:50] or not necessarily? [00:21:51] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Um, so you can ... For bilateral [00:21:55] stimulation, it could be auditory, it could be a light bearer. Um, we originally used to [00:22:00] guide the eyes with the hands. Um, the eye movement is an essential [00:22:05] part. [00:22:05] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It is an [00:22:05] Dr. Taz: essential part. Okay. [00:22:05] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Um, but you may also have seen demonstrations of the butterfly hug with the eyes [00:22:10] closed. This is also going to create saccadic movement. So there's many ways of you [00:22:15] simulating this experience. [00:22:16] Dr. Taz: So the saccadic movement is bringing [00:22:20] the emotional desensitization. [00:22:22] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It's making everything less sharp. [00:22:24] Dr. Taz: [00:22:25] Okay. [00:22:25] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So then you can observe it rather than absorb it. And when [00:22:30] you observe it from a calm, curious place with your compassionate witness, [00:22:35] you're able to look at it through curious eyes. [00:22:39] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:22:40] [00:22:40] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Often when we don't revisit memories, we, it, we keep the [00:22:45] childlike interpretation of it. And the thing about childhood memories that I think is [00:22:50] very important is that children often take over accountability for things.[00:22:55] [00:22:55] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And there's a Scottish psychiatrist, uh, Ronald Fairbairn, and, uh, he [00:23:00] was very curious about children that had endured abuse or pain. Right. And, [00:23:05] um, they would all kind of blame themselves. And he thought, "Isn't this interesting?" They would kind of [00:23:10] say, "If I was more of this or less of this, it wouldn't be happening." [00:23:13] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And he came up with a theory called the [00:23:15] moral defense against bad objects. [00:23:16] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:23:17] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And basically, what this meant was that the child was [00:23:20] so powerless, you know, the bullies in the schoolyard, the antagonist of at home were to be [00:23:25] tolerated with no discernment for boundaries or, "This person's really toxic, I'm gonna take [00:23:30] a break." [00:23:30] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So in order to create a fallacy of control, the child would take [00:23:35] accountability. [00:23:35] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:23:36] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And this over accountability for a very long time is a perfect [00:23:40] recipe for toxic shame. [00:23:41] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:23:42] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So when you're working with adults that have a lot of shame [00:23:45] and they don't feel good enough, we don't come out of the womb feeling this way. [00:23:48] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: We learn this through [00:23:50] painful life experiences. And often the childlike interpretation of the [00:23:55] event is what changes. [00:23:56] Dr. Taz: Oh, wow. [00:23:56] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: You start to see it as the more emotionally intelligent, [00:24:00] evolved, compassionate adult you are today rather than the frightened little [00:24:05] child. But the problem too is that I like to actually, um, [00:24:10] liken defense mechanisms to inflammation. [00:24:13] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: In the moment, [00:24:15] inflammation is great. It enhances blood flow- Right ... reduces the risk of infection. Right. But [00:24:20] long-term chronic inflammation is incredibly bad for you- [00:24:22] Dr. Taz: Right ... [00:24:23] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: as you well know. [00:24:24] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:24:24] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Uh, [00:24:25] defense mechanisms are kind of the same. In the moment, that was the most sophisticated, [00:24:30] intelligent way that you could survive. [00:24:32] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It was what you needed to do. Maybe you suppressed [00:24:35] your needs in order to maintain proximity to an overwhelmed caregiver. [00:24:40] Maybe you learned to be the giver in relationships. Maybe you grew up in an [00:24:45] environment where subtlety went unnoticed- Mm-hmm ... so you had to be, go very loud very quickly. The [00:24:50] defense mechanisms that you learned were there to help you navigate the delicate [00:24:55] dance between protection versus connection. [00:24:57] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:24:58] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: However, just like [00:25:00] inflammation, unchecked for a very long time, the very things that kept you safe in childhood [00:25:05] will actually go against you in your... It- the things that kept you safe in childhood [00:25:10] will absolutely go against you in adulthood. [00:25:12] Dr. Taz: Wow. So let's go back to those 11 principles that you [00:25:15] mentioned. [00:25:16] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. And then we can segue into if we have not done this [00:25:20] work- [00:25:20] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Yeah ... [00:25:21] Dr. Taz: how is that impacting our [00:25:25] relationships and our choices, our health, all of these other variables? [00:25:29] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So [00:25:30] the, the 11 core principles of the book, you know, the first chapter is really about [00:25:35] self-love. [00:25:35] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:25:35] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: The difference between narcissism versus true self-love. [00:25:39] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And then from [00:25:40] there, we map out the psychological Achilles' heel and the associated memories. And [00:25:45] then we look at the erotic emotional map. And, uh- What's [00:25:49] Dr. Taz: that? [00:25:50] [00:25:50] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So the erotic emotional map is, it's an interesting pattern that [00:25:55] exists where people often feel like they meet the same kind of people with a different [00:26:00] face. [00:26:00] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:26:00] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And, um, there's a, there's a tool in [00:26:05] psychology called the adult attachment interview. [00:26:07] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:26:07] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And, um, when you're first getting to know [00:26:10] someone, you'll ask them to use three to five adjectives to describe the relationship they had with each parent [00:26:15] from, let's say, the ages of 5 to 12. You don't describe the parent, you describe the [00:26:20] relationship. [00:26:20] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: An optimal relationship would be stable, predictable, reliable, trustworthy. [00:26:25] However, um, relationships are a complicated blend of vices and virtues, [00:26:30] so more often than not, there will be positive and negative aspects. The [00:26:35] erotic emotional map then asks you to describe your romantic relationships. [00:26:39] Dr. Taz: [00:26:40] Mm-hmm. [00:26:40] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Sometimes it's a one-way idealization or crush. It could be a past relationship. [00:26:45] And what people notice is that there are archetypal echoes, um, that [00:26:50] we may pine for the love of the, who, of a person who represents [00:26:55] the parent whose approval we sought the most. [00:26:57] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:26:57] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Or we are unconsciously seeking [00:27:00] out familiar dynamics. [00:27:01] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And, um, there's a theory by Freud that's 100 years [00:27:05] old to describe this dynamic. It's called repetition compulsion, and [00:27:10] basically what it says is that we unconsciously seek out the familiar. If [00:27:15] we were all in a circle and we threw our problems in the circle- Yeah ... and I said, "You can pick whatever [00:27:20] problems you want," you would probably pick your own again. [00:27:23] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:27:23] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: They're familiar. [00:27:25] It's a pain you know how to tolerate. You know how it goes, and you have an unconscious [00:27:30] desire to have a reparation fantasy. If only I could seduce this [00:27:35] unavailable partner, I would deem the earlier parental pain null and void. [00:27:40] Um, we are often reliving a version of the past, [00:27:45] seeking out a corrective experience completely, um, below conscious [00:27:50] awareness. [00:27:51] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: But there's a quote from Carl Jung that I love, and he says, "Until you [00:27:55] make the unconscious conscious, it continues to rule your life, and you call it fate." [00:27:59] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:27:59] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: There's a [00:28:00] power in this awareness because when you have deep self-awareness, [00:28:05] you can operate not from classic conditioning, but from your own discernment. [00:28:09] Dr. Taz: [00:28:10] Mm. Interesting. So narcissism versus [00:28:15] self-love. [00:28:15] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Mm-hmm. [00:28:16] Dr. Taz: The erotic- [00:28:17] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: The psychological Achilles heel ... the erotic [00:28:20] map. The erotic map, and then we go into Medea, who I [00:28:25] used for the parent wound- Okay ... understanding that relationship. Pygmalion is, [00:28:30] um, it's really there for you to show the difference between boundaries [00:28:35] versus emotional walls And then after there, we, we have a discussion about fear.[00:28:40] [00:28:40] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:28:40] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And the opposing figures in Greek mythology that represent fear are Phobos, which [00:28:45] is where the word phobia came from. [00:28:46] Dr. Taz: Interesting. [00:28:46] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It would make you terrified- Yeah ... if you saw Phobos. [00:28:49] Dr. Taz: Uh-huh. [00:28:49] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: [00:28:50] And Icarus, who represents reckless defiance. And how do we engage in [00:28:55] wise risking? How do we engage in balancing the duty of care with the dignity of risk?[00:29:00] [00:29:00] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: We also explore Medea to, um, represent body-based intrusion [00:29:05] trauma, and how, you know, in Greek myth, she had the perfect defense mechanism for a [00:29:10] survivor of, uh, sexual assault. [00:29:12] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:29:12] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Um, and then [00:29:15] the latter end of the book, I won't lie, gets a little woo-woo. [00:29:17] Dr. Taz: Uh-huh. [00:29:18] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Um, we use the [00:29:20] phoenix to talk about, you know, the hero's journey, the ego death, the rebirth, the [00:29:25] renaissance that happens. [00:29:26] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:29:26] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Chiron, the wounded healer that was beloved by [00:29:30] Jung, and that represents the art of transmutation, sublimation. [00:29:35] And sublimation in psychology is very interesting. It's when you turn your psychological Achilles' heel into [00:29:40] your superpower. [00:29:40] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:29:41] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So for example, um, Michael Phelps had ADHD, and he [00:29:45] would run around his house, so his parents put him in a swimming pool. [00:29:48] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Uh, Arnold Schwarzenegger felt really [00:29:50] meek and weak with an abusive, alcoholic father, so he wanted to feel [00:29:55] powerful through repetitious practice. [00:29:57] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:29:57] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Um, not just in, um, [00:30:00] wrestling, but then in acting, and then in real estate, and then in politics. [00:30:05] Sometimes the defense mechanism plays out in such big ways that you don't even [00:30:10] realize that this isn't your personality- [00:30:12] Dr. Taz: Interesting [00:30:12] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: this is your fear. [00:30:13] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:30:14] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And, [00:30:15] um, the fear chapter in the book is there for you to understand the primary motivations [00:30:20] behind your identity and what you're looking for. The book climaxes with the [00:30:25] story of Psyche and Eros, which is the goddess of the soul being [00:30:30] kissed by the god of love. She was not born the goddess of the soul. [00:30:33] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: She became the goddess of the [00:30:35] soul through trials and tribulations, and this is where the word psychology came from. [00:30:40] Psyche means soul, ology is the study of. Psychology is the study of the [00:30:45] soul, and the story of Psyche and Eros is where the soul realigns [00:30:50] with love, the frequency of love. And for me, that is the highest form of healing. [00:30:54] Dr. Taz: [00:30:55] Hmm. And how, so in a relationship- [00:30:59] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Mm-hmm ... [00:30:59] Dr. Taz: what's [00:31:00] happening in relationships? How does all this apply to relationships? [00:31:03] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Well, going back to the erotic [00:31:05] emotional map- [00:31:05] Dr. Taz: Uh-huh ... [00:31:06] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: and let's say the bite that fits the wound, um, [00:31:10] sometimes you feel, like, butterflies and chemistry with someone. [00:31:14] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:31:14] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: [00:31:15] But actually, it's not really compatibility. [00:31:17] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It's an unconscious trauma [00:31:20] reenactment because they represent the parent whose love or approval you sought the most. [00:31:25] [00:31:25] Dr. Taz: And- Is it always coming from the parent? Is that, is that always kind of the wound for the most part? [00:31:29] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: That's a good ... [00:31:30] Sometimes when you do this with people- Yeah ... there can be a teacher in there. [00:31:33] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: There can be a very [00:31:35] chronically invalidating environment with another adult, but it always begins in childhood. [00:31:39] Dr. Taz: [00:31:40] Okay. [00:31:40] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Your arousal template is a blend of your early childhood [00:31:45] experiences, your early sexual experiences, your attachment style. And the [00:31:50] prologue of the story, going back to the beginning, it always tells you everything you [00:31:55] would ever need to know. [00:31:55] Dr. Taz: So how do these- Mm ... core principles apply to [00:32:00] relationships? How are they determining the partners we choose, how we [00:32:05] show up in the world? You know, what, what is the sort of physical manifestation of this in the world? [00:32:10] [00:32:10] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It's a really great question. I love that question. And, um, I guess [00:32:15] the core principles, in the beginning, it's about, you know, being open to self-love [00:32:20] because, um, the Greeks, you know, had many different names for love, but [00:32:25] philautia, which is self-love, was the foundational love. [00:32:28] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It was impossible [00:32:30] to really love others without first loving yourself. [00:32:33] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:32:33] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And you can only connect with [00:32:35] others to the degree that you meet yourself. Then your psychological Achilles [00:32:40] heel, you know, pain, unresolved trauma comes up as a reaction rather than a [00:32:45] memory, and we all have these sensitive spots, these areas [00:32:50] that make us feel very activated. [00:32:52] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And the awareness of knowing your [00:32:55] Achilles heel, it allows you not just to care for yourself, but to also [00:33:00] give others a verbal manual of how you wanna be loved. [00:33:02] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:33:03] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And in terms of [00:33:05] your most repeated pattern, I really believe that [00:33:10] within your most repeated pattern is the sole lesson you need the most. [00:33:14] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And if you can [00:33:15] look at this reoccurring pain, "I can't believe I'm going through this again. Why do I [00:33:20] keep meeting the same person with a different face? I'm reliving the same [00:33:25] wound," when you take a step back and you look at it with curiosity and [00:33:30] openness, um, you can actually start to see, "What did I need? [00:33:34] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: What could I do [00:33:35] differently?" And ultimately, you can ask- How do I, do I want [00:33:40] to repeat or evolve? And how can I break the pattern? Because [00:33:45] everything is always operating in a perfect pattern. [00:33:48] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:33:48] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And when you know and [00:33:50] understand yourself, and you know what you would do differently or what you need more [00:33:55] of, you have power to break that pattern. [00:33:58] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And the book is essentially a [00:34:00] guide to loving yourself, honoring yourself, but then also [00:34:05] connecting with discernment with people in a harmonious way. It doesn't [00:34:10] feel like self-abandonment or self-sacrifice. It feels like it's coming from a genuine and [00:34:15] sincere place. [00:34:16] Dr. Taz: So give us some, like, maybe tactical examples of [00:34:20] some of this. [00:34:20] Dr. Taz: Like for example, if you are able to identify, let's say I [00:34:25] do a map of my psychological Achilles heel. [00:34:29] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Yeah. [00:34:29] Dr. Taz: And [00:34:30] in that map, I go back all the way to childhood, and I start to identify, I guess I would [00:34:35] call them micro moments- Mm-hmm, yeah ... that led up to some of the chaos that ensued over the [00:34:40] years, right? [00:34:41] Dr. Taz: And as I identify those micro [00:34:45] movements, moments, not movements, uh, a core issue keeps coming up- [00:34:49] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: [00:34:50] Yeah, [00:34:50] Dr. Taz: yeah ... over and over again. How do I take that core issue now to my [00:34:55] partner, if I'm in a relationship- Yeah ... or how do I take that core issue [00:35:00] and bring that awareness to my next relationship? [00:35:03] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Well, if it's not too bold, [00:35:05] can I get just a little adjective with chaos? [00:35:07] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Like [00:35:09] Dr. Taz: something. An [00:35:10] adjective with chaos. Yeah. So familial dysfunction is the only way to [00:35:15] describe it. Like it was- Both of our pa- both of [00:35:20] our parents, and I'm sure all of us would say, are, were very emotionally dysregulated- Yeah ... but in very different [00:35:25] ways. One was- [00:35:26] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Yeah ... [00:35:26] Dr. Taz: outwardly so, one was inwardly so, right? [00:35:29] Dr. Taz: So [00:35:30] very different. And I think I, as the eldest, became the [00:35:35] fixer. [00:35:35] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Yeah. [00:35:36] Dr. Taz: Right? Yeah. Or the parent- Yeah ... maybe even. Like, trying to make this person feel [00:35:40] okay, and this person feel okay, and then [00:35:42] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: my [00:35:42] Dr. Taz: younger siblings- And then in your romantic [00:35:44] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: life, [00:35:45] did you do the same thing, or- [00:35:46] Dr. Taz: Initially, I think. Okay. Not [00:35:50] ultimately, but initially, you know? [00:35:51] Dr. Taz: So, so I was just like, look for my daughter, [00:35:55] who's 18. You know, like- Yeah ... if I tell her, "Let's map you- [00:35:59] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Yeah, yeah ... [00:35:59] Dr. Taz: so that [00:36:00] you're aware of the traps, you know, that you might fall into. [00:36:05] Or you just need to educate the people around you, [00:36:08] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: you know?" Well, first, first off, I think this is a very [00:36:10] beautiful question, and I, I didn't think of it this way, but I love the [00:36:15] idea of you having the emotional intimacy to sit down and do it with an 18-year-old. [00:36:19] Dr. Taz: [00:36:20] Yeah. [00:36:20] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Because what a gift. What a gift to know yourself that deeply before you go out into the [00:36:25] world and start choosing people. [00:36:26] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:36:27] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And to have the psychological safety. '[00:36:30] [00:36:30] Dr. Taz: Cause I would say from 17 through 30, I [00:36:35] didn't choose correctly, [00:36:37] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: you know? You were... Were you choosing something familiar? [00:36:40] Like, "I'm the eldest daughter, I'm gonna caretake you"? [00:36:42] Dr. Taz: Either a caretake or it's an absentee [00:36:45] person. Mm. Uh, you know what I mean? And I would- [00:36:46] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Oh, you were vacillating between two archetypes, and [00:36:50] one, you were, um, probably parentify- you were parentified. And [00:36:55] if you're caring for someone in that way, you will also inevitably de-eroticize them- Mm-hmm ... 'cause it's a [00:37:00] different part of the brain. [00:37:01] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And then there was also this other, more elusive... It's almost like the erotic [00:37:05] equation. Mm. Attraction plus obstacle equals romance. [00:37:08] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [00:37:08] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So you pendulated [00:37:10] between the two archetypes, which is very common. [00:37:12] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:37:13] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: But then something happened when you [00:37:15] turned 30. [00:37:15] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:37:16] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: What happened? [00:37:17] Dr. Taz: Well, I had a lot of alone time, and I did a lot of work on myself. [00:37:19] Dr. Taz: [00:37:20] Okay. So [00:37:20] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: yeah. So you had a cleansing process. Yeah. You went within. Yeah. You got to know [00:37:25] yourself, and then you had your renaissance, your rebirth. [00:37:27] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:37:28] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And then you chose [00:37:30] differently. You did that spontaneously. I'm sure it wasn't easy, but that's, [00:37:35] I guess, what I'm hoping people will do with the mapping, is they will take a long look at themselves, [00:37:40] and they will not be afraid to be alone, and they will try to choose from their heart.[00:37:45] [00:37:45] Dr. Taz: Mm. That takes a lot of courage. Yeah. So many people are afraid to be [00:37:50] alone or afraid of what that kind of honesty will do next, right? [00:37:53] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: People are terrified of being [00:37:55] alone. However, I would argue that it's better to be with yourself, it can be a [00:38:00] luxurious experience to really be with yourself, than to be with the wrong person. [00:38:04] Dr. Taz: [00:38:05] Mm. [00:38:05] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So these emotionally volatile relationships are like roller [00:38:10] coasters, because you're going up and down, up and down. And just like a roller coaster, [00:38:15] you get off exactly where you got on. Your life has not really moved forward. You haven't been [00:38:20] able to do things, to take wise risking. And really being with yourself [00:38:25] and choosing psychological safety, choosing a [00:38:30] safe, predictable kind of love, is one of the kindest things you can do for yourself. [00:38:34] Dr. Taz: [00:38:35] Mm. [00:38:35] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Unfortunately, a lot of people have this unconscious draw [00:38:40] for corrective experience, and the more you go for this unpredictable [00:38:45] partner, the more you seek out to seduce and have a corrective experience with the [00:38:50] next. [00:38:50] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:38:51] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: But the erotic emotional map is there to kinda take all the [00:38:55] mystique out of it, and just kind of have you look at the archetypes and go, "This is [00:39:00] the two archetypes I keep pendulating back and forth from. [00:39:04] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It's not as [00:39:05] sexy and exciting now because it's all out in the open." Yeah. "I know what I'm doing. I know how it goes, [00:39:10] and I'm gonna choose something better." [00:39:11] Dr. Taz: So, like, the butterflies, and the chemistry, [00:39:15] and the magic, and all the words that people use can actually [00:39:20] not be the right thing. [00:39:22] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Well, I'm just gonna say, I think these butterflies [00:39:25] have a lot to answer for, and if you're still getting butterflies six or [00:39:30] nine months in, it's probably not chemistry. [00:39:32] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It's probably, um, an [00:39:35] unconscious trauma reenactment. [00:39:37] Dr. Taz: Wow. So many people will be so [00:39:40] disappointed by that answer. [00:39:42] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: I'm the Grinch of romance. I know, right? But I, I [00:39:45] want people to choose psychological safety, and choose themselves, and choose [00:39:50] self-awareness, and, and choose the kind of love that gives them the wings to fly and a [00:39:55] safe space to land. [00:39:56] Dr. Taz: So is that... That was actually gonna be my next question, because you can [00:40:00] get lost in this world and start to over-evaluate, you know, what's going [00:40:05] on, and then start to be like, "Well, maybe my relationship isn't the right relationship," or, "Maybe I am in the wrong place." [00:40:10] What are signs that actually you, you know, that this work needs to be [00:40:15] done within a relationship? [00:40:16] Dr. Taz: What are some of the common signs? [00:40:18] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Well, okay, you've asked two [00:40:20] questions, and I'm gonna do the first one first- Okay ... which is, you know, you've done all the pattern [00:40:25] recognition, but you don't wanna get lost in that world. There is a, an exercise in the book that I [00:40:30] really like. It's in the social pruning chapter- [00:40:32] Dr. Taz: Okay [00:40:33] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: where you take an [00:40:35] inventory of all of your relationships. [00:40:36] Dr. Taz: Ooh, that's a good one. That's a good [00:40:40] one. [00:40:40] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And if you spend 45 minutes with someone, or three hours, you walk away and you just [00:40:45] write down three I am beliefs. And we as humans, when we're together, our, [00:40:50] our nervous systems synchronize, and we cross-pollinate. [00:40:54] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: [00:40:55] And, um, you're just doing three I am beliefs of the way a person made you feel [00:41:00] about yourself in their company. Mm-hmm. And there are some people you walk away from, and your face [00:41:05] is sore from smiling, and you were laughing, and you feel- Mm-hmm ... very interesting and funny and great. [00:41:10] And there are other people, you can't quite put your finger on it, but every time you meet them- Yep [00:41:13] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: you feel like a [00:41:15] smaller, meeker, more apologetic version of yourself. [00:41:17] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:41:18] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And I think taking the inventory [00:41:20] for a week or two- [00:41:21] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ... [00:41:21] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: and we all have our phones with us all the time, if we're honest, and you [00:41:25] write down the three I am beliefs, and you can start to see, how do these people [00:41:30] impact the relationship I have with myself? [00:41:32] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:41:32] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And you can hopefully start to choose [00:41:35] people where they are cultivating a relationship of harmony with yourself. '[00:41:40] [00:41:40] Dr. Taz: Cause it's ultimately about harmony. [00:41:42] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Well, it's about harmony. The longest relationship you'll have [00:41:45] in your life is the relationship you have with yourself. [00:41:46] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:41:47] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And sometimes the person that smiles at you is [00:41:50] not your friend. [00:41:51] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: You know, sometimes you spend time with people, and [00:41:55] there's a physical attraction, but f- they're planting all of these [00:42:00] insecurities in you, and they're, there's systematic boundary violations, and you find yourself [00:42:05] self-abandoning and pathological a- accommodations. So I think taking the [00:42:10] inventory will let you know who is an energy giver and who's an energy taker. [00:42:14] Dr. Taz: Oh, wow. I [00:42:15] like that. And then within the relationship itself, what are some flags [00:42:20] that you may not be, you may be... Oh, my God, your words. You may be [00:42:25] reenacting- [00:42:26] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Unconsciously reenacting the past [00:42:28] Dr. Taz: There you go. [00:42:29] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Yeah. Yeah. [00:42:30] So here's the thing. Once you do all your mind mapping and your [00:42:35] pattern recognition, you might actually feel a sense of sadness [00:42:40] And you might go, "Oh my gosh, I did not know I married my mother." [00:42:43] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:42:44] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Or I [00:42:45] d- Or, "I didn't know I was reliving this pattern," you [00:42:50] know, the bite that fits the wound. Right. It's happening again. However, then you're [00:42:55] gonna ask yourself, "What do I need?" You will start to give yourse- give a verbal [00:43:00] manual of how you wanna be loved. From there, the fantasy is gone. It's not, "I'm [00:43:05] going to love them into being a mature, evolved person." [00:43:09] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: You're gonna ask for [00:43:10] what you need, and they will make an informed decision to meet you there. [00:43:13] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:43:14] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Or [00:43:15] you will know that even with all the information, even with the [00:43:20] full awareness, they aren't accountable or they're not meeting you there. [00:43:23] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:43:24] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: [00:43:25] And, um, there's a lovely theory, Prochaska and DiClemente's Stages of Change [00:43:30] model. [00:43:30] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Yeah. It's often used in terms of risk of re-offending, which I know sounds [00:43:35] really hardcore. [00:43:36] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:43:36] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: But there are four things to determine if someone's [00:43:40] gonna re-offend. Accountability, I did it. Empathy, you're [00:43:45] not blaming the victim. You're actually putting yourself in the person's shoes and you're empathizing.[00:43:50] [00:43:50] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: How are you going to, um... You know, you're acknowledging that you do need to make [00:43:55] changes, and then how are you gonna make the changes? So if you find these patterns in a close [00:44:00] relationship and the person is not accountable and empathic, then [00:44:05] you already know that there's 100% chance of re-offending. [00:44:08] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:44:09] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So [00:44:10] unfortunately, the pattern recognition is one part of the story, and then the assertive [00:44:15] self-advocacy- Is the other part [00:44:16] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: the inventory, the learning to find your voice, [00:44:20] that's the next part, and that takes a lot of courage. Yes. And it takes time, and it's a, it's [00:44:25] a process. [00:44:26] Dr. Taz: Wow. And so if someone is in this journey, who should they [00:44:30] work with or turn to if they need some support? [00:44:33] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Well, obviously I'm a [00:44:35] huge advocate for therapy. I just think it's such a wonderful thing for people.[00:44:40] [00:44:40] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: However, I love the idea of what you said earlier, that you [00:44:45] wanted to take little parts of this book and sit down with your daughter. [00:44:48] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:44:48] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And I love the [00:44:50] idea of people pairing off with a friend or a loved one and saying, "Let's, let's do this [00:44:55] together as an intimate exercise." [00:44:56] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:44:57] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And I would love the idea of people taking [00:45:00] this book and getting together in little groups and supporting each other, [00:45:05] and I think that if you have someone that really loves you and cares for you, [00:45:10] and you know that you can be yourself with them, um, that's enough. [00:45:14] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: You know? Like, [00:45:15] you just need that one person you can be really true with. And, um, I feel very honored [00:45:20] that you would do that exercise with your daughter. [00:45:22] Dr. Taz: Oh, I'm excited to, as she [00:45:25] enters this, right? Yeah. Maybe I can save her the, the 10 years of batting around [00:45:30] and trying to- Well, [00:45:30] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: yeah ... you know? Wouldn't it, [00:45:30] Dr. Taz: wouldn't it be great? [00:45:31] Dr. Taz: Trying to, trying to figure this out. But I know her journey will [00:45:35] also, you know, be her own. Now, bringing it back to the individual- [00:45:38] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Mm-hmm ... [00:45:38] Dr. Taz: you know- [00:45:40] Where, what have you observed in terms of when you're working with people and you know that they [00:45:45] have unresolved trauma, something that's dominating their psyche? [00:45:49] Dr. Taz: [00:45:50] What are you noticing that they say, or what do they feel, or where are they holding it in the body? [00:45:54] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: [00:45:55] So it's so interesting, the bridge between the body and the mind. [00:45:57] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:45:58] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And, um, [00:46:00] trauma always manifests in the body. The body feels the pain you don't allow yourself [00:46:05] to express. And different parts of the body hold different things.[00:46:10] [00:46:10] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: For example, tightness in the throat is often the words you never got to say or the sensation of [00:46:15] choking back tears. You know, pain in the shoulders is a long history of [00:46:20] making yourself smaller- Mm ... and walking on eggshells. And often your core, your [00:46:25] dantian, your solar plexus, it's that area that gets activated when you don't feel in [00:46:30] control. [00:46:31] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And, um, in the book, what I try to guide people to do [00:46:35] is to tune in. Interoception is your ability to sense the [00:46:40] body, and the body's very powerful. If you've a reoccurring sensation around a [00:46:45] particular person, if you simply put your hand there and you kinda say, [00:46:50] "If this sensation had words, what would it be telling me?" [00:46:53] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:46:53] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It's very powerful what [00:46:55] can come out. And there's another technique where you don't just ask [00:47:00] the words, you ask if there's an image that goes with that sensation, if there is an [00:47:05] emotion, if you could visualize this. And often you [00:47:10] can personify your fear or your defense mechanism and interview it.[00:47:15] [00:47:15] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: There's a lot of wisdom in the body. And, um, [00:47:20] underneath your fear, um, when you're chronically fearful for a very long [00:47:25] time, it's very hard to tune into the body, but once you start building a relationship with your body as [00:47:30] a tool of intuition- [00:47:31] Dr. Taz: Hmm ... [00:47:31] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: you're going to feel very guided. [00:47:34] Dr. Taz: You'll know what to [00:47:35] do next. [00:47:35] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Yeah. [00:47:36] Dr. Taz: Fascinating. You know, when, when we are doing [00:47:40] this type of work, is this what essentially somatic healing is? How would you [00:47:45] define somatic healing? Well- 'Cause I know a lot, a lot of people are asking about it nowadays, and [00:47:50] curious about it. So how would you define it? [00:47:52] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Well, soma is, you know, it's the relationship [00:47:55] between the body and the mind. [00:47:56] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:47:57] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And, um, talking about [00:48:00] things is just one layer. Um, listening to the patterns of the body, [00:48:05] it's, it's gonna give you a lot of information. And humans, when they're in a state of [00:48:10] shock or trauma- Uh-huh ... they freeze. They tend to hold emotion in the [00:48:15] body, and repressed pain can linger in the body long after the [00:48:20] threat of harm has passed, and come up as a reaction rather than a memory. [00:48:24] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:48:25] [00:48:25] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And when you start to work with the body, and you start to give the sensations a voice, [00:48:30] and you start to give them some space, a lot can come out. You know, [00:48:35] very quickly you start to access the memories. You start to access the unmet needs. [00:48:40] [00:48:40] Dr. Taz: That's so interesting. Like, and I'm curious too, like, people that have chronic neck pain, [00:48:45] people that have headaches, are there certain patterns that go with either of those? [00:48:49] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: [00:48:50] Well, it's interesting, um- [00:48:52] Dr. Taz: Or jaw pain, right? Yeah. We see a lot of, like, TMJ [00:48:55] or jaw pain. [00:48:55] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: The jaw is a very primal place. I will say that even people that [00:49:00] go home from work, and they grab the chips or the pretzels, and they wanna gnash, gnash, gnash, it's the [00:49:05] feeling of dispelling anger- [00:49:06] Dr. Taz: Oh ... and [00:49:07] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: tension. Um, [00:49:10] but then like headaches and neck pain, it can be very unique for people in terms of [00:49:15] obviously there's an onset of stress and inflammation. [00:49:19] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It's [00:49:20] activating a vulnerable part, and you know that there's something gets activated every time you get [00:49:25] stressed, that's when you get your neck pain or you get your- Mm-hmm ... headache, and the body is [00:49:30] holding a lot of tension and pain. And, um, when we start to work with people [00:49:35] in terms of somatic discharge or getting to know the emotions behind the pain [00:49:40] via ego state work, it's often, you know, all of the times that you were made to [00:49:45] feel this way. [00:49:46] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And if you don't put boundaries in place in your life, if you don't set [00:49:50] limits, if you don't say no to things, the body has a funny way of [00:49:55] putting boundaries in place for you. [00:49:57] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:49:57] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And I had a young female client [00:50:00] who was cleared by neurology with headaches, and, um, [00:50:05] they sent her to me and they said, "Okay, can you do somatic healing on her?"[00:50:10] [00:50:10] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And it was very simple. W- she was in a relaxed state, and I kind [00:50:15] of asked her under this relaxed state, "If this head tension [00:50:20] was your friend, how would it be trying to serve you?" And she said that, "Whenever I get [00:50:25] this headache," she was very young, "everyone in the house gets very quiet. [00:50:30] People are kinder to each other. [00:50:32] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: We pull the curtains. We [00:50:35] simmer down, we relax, and it would probably want me to feel safe." [00:50:40] And when we started to, you know, be very open about the feeling, behind every [00:50:45] behavior is a feeling, and behind every feeling is a need, and understanding that deeper need is the [00:50:50] gateway to you b- having a more aligned life, that she was looking for a more zen, chilled environment- [00:50:54] Dr. Taz: [00:50:55] Mm [00:50:55] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: the headaches kind of reduced, and that's often the way in [00:51:00] big and small ways for people. You know, you keep getting this intense sciatic [00:51:05] pain until you leave that toxic job. It's not that the [00:51:10] pain wasn't real, but the chronic inflammation of walking on eggshells in an [00:51:15] environment of fear and trepidation, it was activating all the vulnerable parts of your body. [00:51:19] Dr. Taz: [00:51:20] Mm. [00:51:20] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So it's not ... I know that it is really, um, you know, [00:51:25] shaming when people say it's psychosomatic. [00:51:27] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:51:27] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Almost like it's an insult. [00:51:29] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:51:29] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: [00:51:30] But the feeling of walking on eggshells for a very, very long time, it's gonna make [00:51:35] you chronically inflamed. It's going to make the body prioritize survival over [00:51:40] replenishment, and that's where the vulnerable parts of your body are gonna start to [00:51:45] feel it first, and then deeper metabolic changes will happen that could [00:51:50] obviously activate, you know, you know, autoimmunes or other, you know, very serious [00:51:55] diagnoses. [00:51:55] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: The body is always telling a story, and if you're able to, [00:52:00] you know, calm the mind to listen to it, it's a gateway to tuning into your [00:52:05] intuition. Your intuition is a quiet knowing. The trauma brain is a frantic [00:52:10] fear. It's like a lot of racing, cyclical thoughts. [00:52:13] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:52:13] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Um, but [00:52:15] actually creating a relationship with your body where it's your friend rather than your foe, [00:52:20] um, where you're inviting it to give, let you know what it needs, what to let go of, what [00:52:25] to bring in, it, it can enhance your power as a person. [00:52:29] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It can [00:52:30] make you feel more safe in the body, embodied, y- intuitive- [00:52:33] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ... [00:52:34] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: [00:52:35] calm, curious. And when you're psychologically safe, that's when you can start to be [00:52:40] playful again. That's where you can start to take risks again. That's when you can start to [00:52:45] challenge yourself again. That's when you can start to stop living in fear and live in faith. [00:52:49] Dr. Taz: [00:52:50] Wow. Well, this has been so enlightening, and I really appreciate you taking [00:52:55] time out to help us understand this. I f- I find it all so fascinating. [00:53:00] What are just a couple of things you really want our viewer or listener to walk away [00:53:05] with? [00:53:05] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Thank you so much. I loved this conversation with you. Um, [00:53:10] the key things I'd like people to walk away with is, one, not to be afraid to [00:53:15] listen within- You know, with that reoccurring thought, that reoccurring [00:53:20] sensation, to kinda ask, "Where did that come from, and what did I need at that time?" [00:53:24] Dr. Taz: [00:53:25] Mm-hmm. [00:53:25] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: The other is that no matter how much of, how many years of your life [00:53:30] have been lost to pain, shame, or trauma, or self-sabotage, there is [00:53:35] always a way back. And, you know, that quote again that I love, "The [00:53:40] angel was always in the marble, and I carved until I set it free." I love that, yeah. Within you, there [00:53:45] is a deep inner wisdom of you knowing exactly what you need- Wow [00:53:49] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: in order [00:53:50] to have an aligned life, and to trust yourself. [00:53:52] Dr. Taz: Mm. I love it. Well, your book is [00:53:55] out when, or is it already out? [00:53:57] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It's September 22nd. Okay. Um, on [00:54:00] audio and in hard copy. [00:54:02] Dr. Taz: Psyche's Awakening is the name of the book, [00:54:05] correct? [00:54:05] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Yes. There we go. Um, and I'm so excited for people to read it, and, [00:54:10] um, hopefully, you know, do exercises with close friends. [00:54:14] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And [00:54:15] also reignite, I think we all got a little bit of a Greek myth obsession this summer. Yeah, yeah. But it's [00:54:20] not just an obsession, it's a lifestyle. And I think it's a lovely way to awaken your soul, [00:54:25] is to go back to the ancient stories. [00:54:27] Dr. Taz: And remind the, remind ourselves of the lessons they were [00:54:30] trying to teach us, essentially. [00:54:31] Dr. Taz: Exactly. You know. Well, final question: What makes you [00:54:35] whole? [00:54:36] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Wow. Um, that's a great question. [00:54:40] Honestly, um, o- one of the things that makes me whole is when I [00:54:45] think of my inner child and I think about her dreams. And my [00:54:50] dream as an eight-year-old was to write a book that would feel like a warm hug. [00:54:53] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:54:54] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And, [00:54:55] um, that would take away pain and sorrow. [00:54:58] Dr. Taz: You had this thought at eight? [00:54:59] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Yes. [00:55:00] I know. I obviously was a very troubled eight-year-old. Wow. 'Cause that's a very strange childhood [00:55:04] Dr. Taz: dream. [00:55:05] That's [00:55:05] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: amazing. That is amazing. And I feel like this book is me doing that. [00:55:07] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:55:07] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And, um, I, I [00:55:10] tried to think about, you know, my younger self, and I try to think about, honestly, she would be pretty [00:55:15] happy now. [00:55:15] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Yeah. And, and luckily for me, I have two little girls, [00:55:20] and a lot of my inner child comes out with them. Yeah. And it just makes me feel very [00:55:25] whole. [00:55:25] Dr. Taz: Amazing. Well, thank you so much for taking time out today to [00:55:30] share your amazing work with us, help us understand trauma a little bit better, [00:55:35] EMDR, somatic healing, how it connects back to relationships, and the work that we all [00:55:40] still need to do. [00:55:41] Dr. Taz: So I appreciate it, and for everyone else watching and listening, [00:55:45] remember we post new episodes every week. Don't forget to subscribe, and maybe [00:55:50] this can actually be something you do with your family, your loved ones, in terms of [00:55:55] understanding where the wounds began and how they might be impacting you and your health [00:56:00] today. [00:56:00] Dr. Taz: All right, I'll see you guys next time. Before you go, take a second to reflect on [00:56:05] what stood out for you today. Then, if you can, leave a quick review wherever you're [00:56:10] listening. It really helps other people discover HolPlus and start their own healing [00:56:15] journey. And don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Dr. [00:56:18] Dr. Taz: Taz MD. I love [00:56:20] hearing how these episodes are supporting you.