Latest / From Sad Pick Me Girl to Alchemist / Episode 9 - Why Dating Feels So Hard (And What We Can Do Differently)
Transcript
- Denise: Hi, everyone, and welcome to another episode of From Sad Pick Me Girl to Alchemist. Today I have Moon here. He is a men's dating coach, a meeting facilitator, and educator. And I'm super excited. I wanted to bring him to this discussion just so we can talk a little bit about. The experience men have in dating, a lot of the times when I discuss my experiences, I'm looking at it from a female's perspective. So I really want to have a holistic approach on the dating pool and what it's like for men and women and how we can collectively work together to really make it a place where it's not so daunting. I think is really what I'm trying to I I really want to reframe it so that it's fun for people and it's not this thing where people are. Just demoralized and my god, the dating pool sucks, which is some of the things I commonly hear being a single woman. So Moon, if you could touch a little bit on your work and what you do for men, that would be amazing. Moon: Yeah, thanks for having me on here. I really appreciate it. I know this is gonna be like our first time really getting to know each other. So Yeah. So dating coach. you know, so like the question I get like immediately when I tell people I'm a dating coach is like, how did that happen? Like, how does that come to be? and it really just started with these men's meetings I've been hosting every other Thursday. I've been doing it for about three years now. Denise: Yeah. Makes it more exciting. Moon: And I build a fire over at Crown Point, San Diego. And it's a space for men to kind of get together, connect, make friends, find community, and just a space for them to express themselves authentically, right? So more more so vulnerability. And what I found was is there was finally a space for men to feel comfortable talking about their dating challenges. And you know, I got enough of these inquiries during the meeting that I was like, you know what, I think I have something to offer here. So I started, yeah, coaching some of the guys that were coming to my meeting. Denise: Amazing. And when you say men's challenges, what are some of the common ones that you hear? I'm sure there are a lot of them and I'm just super curious because as women I can speak all day of some of the challenges that we have and I'd love to see what they are verse you know, compared to men. Moon: Are you asking me specifically in the context of dating or just ch men in general? Denise: specifically in the context of dating. Or even honestly in general too, because I think that all of it's intertwined, right? I would say. Yeah. Moon: Okay, challenges they're happening. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I think there's a few things going on. So one of them is just like online dating is really just everyone has online dating fatigue. And so there's there's challenges on both sides, right? So I always tell people online dating for men is like finding clean water in a desert, and online dating for women is like finding clean water in a swamp. Like we both just have Denise: Yeah. yeah. Right. Yeah. Moon: these challenges, right? We both we all hate it. We're all like feeling really ambivalent about it. And so that's that's part of it, right? And it's I find that the more time men spend on dating apps is the more resentment they grow towards women. Right. and so I would say that's one piece of it is online dating is kind of taking away that human element and it's kind of tipping the scales a little bit unfavorably. Denise: Mm-hmm. yeah. Moon: the second part of that is I think there's just women are doing really well right now, you know? and and that's okay. That's a good thing, that's not a bad thing. But women are graduating at higher rates than men are right now, much higher rates in in in college at least. even earn earning potential is going up. And so there is some I think some like adjustments that men are trying to trying to make and there's I think a growing sense that the standards are getting higher and higher. Denise: okay. So it's funny because one of the things that I often hear or see, and I'm sure you probably have seen it on social media, is now that women are doing better financially, right? That they don't need men for survival. The only thing that really makes them gravitate towards men is their character. So I don't want to poke at men's character, but it sounds like the men that are coming to you are more self-aware and they're trying to be better when it comes, right? We're not talking about the men that may that Moon: Yeah. Denise: I guess that this frame of mind is targeting, right? I don't know what your thoughts on that are. Moon: You're right about that. Like I tell people like the men who probably should be coming to my meetings are not like coming to my meetings, right? The men who are showing up are the ones who are invested in their personal development, right? Who are trying to kind of grow, be more v vulnerable, be more authentic. So yeah, I, you know, work with some really, really cool guys. Guys that are really invested in like growing and and developing their either their social skills or their emotional intelligence or Denise: Ha ha Right. Moon: be. So yeah, all the guys I work with usually are really, really cool. Like I didn't I haven't had a turn any Denise: Right. Yeah, and it seems to me too that there are more men that are becoming more self awares. I've seen more men's groups forming. I I don't know if it's because the people I surround myself with, but it seems to be something that's a lot more common than it was even maybe three years ago. Moon: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's just when I started too. and so I have a little like blurb in my description of my meeting. I used to say most of these like men's meetings were either support groups for addiction or dependency, right? So when you hear men's meeting, you generally think like AA. Right. And now you're starting to see, I mean, at least 'cause we live in San Diego, maybe we're a little bit biased, but like a proliferation of like men's retreats, men's circles, Denise: Right. Yeah. Right. Moon: Yeah, just inner work sort of yeah, gatherings, I would say. Denise: Yeah. And the men that you work with, are you encouraging them to remain on the dating apps or are is there a mixed approach? Is there no one size fits all? Because for me, I feel like like you were saying, there's a a there's a fatigue with dating apps. I I never hear anyone say anything positive about a dating app. Literally never. I don't think I've heard one person say, Yeah, dating apps are it, right? And you do hear success stories, but honestly the success stories I hear are from like years ago. Moon: Yeah. Denise: I think that dating dating gaps have even now become more flooded, right? I'm thinking about like nine years ago people met on Tinder, like no right? that's like like and they got married. It's like an an anomaly. You don't hear that too often. Moon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I've you know, me personally, like I've been through like waves of it, like where I really, really, really enjoyed it. And me and my friends, we always talk about like droughts and floods, like when it's raining, it's pouring, like things like that. Yeah, when it's dry, it is dry. so it's again, I have like this ambivalent relationship with it. I'm on I'm not on any of them now, but it really depends on like where my clients are at, right? Denise: Yeah. Yeah. Moon: And so I really focus on the face-to-face stuff. I think I think that's the way to date these days. and I there's enough offerings. The pendulum is finally swinging the in the other direction. And there's tons of singles events right now, whatever that may be, that are encouraging more face-to-face interactions. And so it really depends on my clients, but I kind of do like a three-pronged approach. I say, hey, let's do online dating, because that's more of like a set it and forget it thing. But You know, even if you get a woman's number in person, you're still gonna have to text them, right? And so you texting online is gonna like translate to texting, you know, over messages or whatever. and so I encourage that, kind of set it and forget it. And and I'll tell guys like, hey, you're gonna learn to hate it, like the like like all of us, you know. but I think there's a good learning curve that you go through with Denise: Right. Moon: With dating apps that might be beneficial even for interactions that you might encounter when you meet someone face to face. So I do online dating and then I encourage them to go to singles mixers. There's a bunch of singles events, singles mixers, or not even singles mixers per se, but social events, right? Where you can make different connections. And then if they want to work on like cold approaching, either like at Clubs or bars, not so much clubs, I don't really do clubs anyways. but like bars and stuff, they want more of a direct approach, then we focus on that as well. Denise: Okay. And so do you walk them through I is the confidence piece or it I'm assuming it's tailored towards each individual. I honestly have known nothing about I've never worked with a dating coach. So you're the first one I'm talking to, I'm completely new to the whole dating coach experience. I just wonder what it's like, w what the work entails. Moon: Yeah, no, that's really, really you're asking really cool questions. you know, I feel like so I'm gonna separate the two. Like there's confidence and there's self-esteem. It they're interchangeable, but for sake of this conversation, I'm just gonna make a distinction. I think when you think of confidence, I think when you have confidence in different areas of your life, they'll kind of coalesce into what we think of like self-esteem, right? So self-esteem is kind of the overarching way you kind of feel about yourself. And so that I feel like is really hard to work on directly, right? but you can work on your communication skills, right? And be more competent communicators, because because that's a skill like like anything else. And so I try to find areas, different areas in their life where they can build confidence or in in the way I frame it is competence. And eventually all those things will add up. Denise: Right. Right. Moon: kind of raise your self-esteem, kind of like like a credit score or something. so it really depends on where they're at. And so my first client that I had, we worked together for the first like six months to a year. We didn't do anything related to dating. It was more so like, hey, let's tell me about your goals for your career right now. Right. And so he was trying to get a promotion. he was also living with a roommate at the time and I was like, okay, what about he really wanted to find his own place. So I helped him find his own place. Denise: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Moon: Another thing that was like a really big challenge was for him was like going to the gym. He had some anxiety about going to the gym out. And so I would help him with that aspect of it. And I feel like once those like you have the foundation of your life set, then it's an opportune time to like kind of jump into dating. But I thought that was I thought that was really cool. I really liked working with guys and kind of setting that foundation first. Denise: Yeah. Right. And it's almost like a life coach. I feel like it's all intertwined, like we were saying, right? Once you feel good about yourself, you'll express yourself better and you'll be more I'll say dateable, right? Quote unquote. At least you have to feel dateable in order to be dateable, right? Because if you don't, then you're gonna give off this energy of like not being ready, right? I don't does that make sense? I feel like the person has to feel good on the inside and be ready and feel ready. Moon: No. Denise: And so I've seen women say that too. They're like, no, I need to lose X amount of weight before I can date. Like, you don't need to. And they're No, but I need to to feel good. Then it's like, Okay, well then then yeah, whatever makes you feel like you need to do it, right? Moon: Yes. Yeah, I agree with you. Like there's this element of like if you don't love yourself, right? I know it's kind of like a little bit of cliche, but like if you don't love yourself, no one else is gonna love you. but it's true. Denise: No, it's okay. This podcast is all on self love, so this is perfect. Moon: Okay. No, I re I really truly believe that, right? Like if you don't love yourself, you present yourself because of yeah, where you are career wise or how you look physically, like yeah, of course that's gonna manifest itself when it comes to dating. Denise: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Right. And I talk about that a lot on the podcast too, because self love is something that I had to work through because I feel like I always looked for external validation and therefore I was looking for people to fill a void that I wasn't filling myself. So no I was never content in a relationship because anytime I finally reach that point where the person would commit, you end up feeling empty inside if you don't feel whole within you, right? You're like, All right, I achieved that, but here I am again with this feeling of emptiness. So I think that your approach is awesome because you're helping people with the fundamentals to make them feel good about themselves first and foremost. Moon: Yeah, and you know, it's tricky. It's like sometimes those are the be the things that I think are would be beneficial for them and and sometimes they don't see it that way, right? They're like, Well, you know, I wanna wanna get better at dating, but I don't really like want to go to the gym at all. And I'm like, Okay, you know, if that listen, if that's those are your that's their criteria for working with me, then sure. I would still encourage it. And so finding that middle ground is kind of hard to do. But I would say most of the guys are open to it and they understand. Denise: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Moon: You know, I can I can help you with like the technical aspects of dating. but if and so yeah, you maybe you go out to the bar and you're able to like get a chick's number or she goes home with you. And so what like what you're able to do to like get a woman is not necessarily the same thing to to keep a woman. Or I mean you can flip flip that around with men, right? Whatever relationship you're looking for. Denise: Yeah. Right. Definitely. And this is not so much going off topic, but I I just want to get your thoughts on this. I always tell people I think the key to finding love sometimes is to not necessarily even look for it. And maybe this is not the completely but just really doing things that feel good for you. So you go to these social clubs, maybe you go to these dating events because it's fun, but you don't put that expectation, I need to meet somebody, I need to meet somebody. I really think the key here is going out and living. I think we lost that sense of that. And now we're everyone wants an outcome for everything. We want like, okay, this is I'm gonna go out, I'm gonna meet this person, and then we're gonna hit it off or we don't. And if we don't hit it off, then it's a failure. Does that make sense at all? I don't like that's my thing. I'm like, what about we just go out and live and try new experiences, do things that feel good, not because you're gonna meet somebody, but because at worst you did something fun and new, and that's a win, right? You didn't meet anybody, but you went and tried something that you've been wanting to try. Moon: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Denise: And you keep doing that. That's my thing. I think just go out and try and people are like, I haven't met anybody and it's been years. I've been single forever. I'm like, Well, what have you done? Have you do you go anywhere new? If you go to the same gym and you go to work and you just go home, how do you expect to meet somebody? Moon: Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. I mean, heck yeah, there's so many things I can pull on here. I I think, you know, the focus I do is like whenever you have like interests and hobbies and ambitions and passions, like you're gonna radiate like this positive energy, right? And then you're gonna start attracting people. It's not like you have to go like chase people at that point. And so I think that's so important. But also like Denise: Yeah. Moon: Being realistic about your expectations. Like I remember in my twenties, you'd see like a horde of like twenty guys that go out together and they're like, I'm gonna get laid tonight, right? Most of the time they don't, right? And so you know why something's happening? They get all angry and they start fighting people, right? Like misguided expectations. and so even when I go out with like a clients of mine, I'll be like, Hey, the goal of tonight is to have fun. Denise: Right. Moon: Like we're gonna have fun regardless of what the outcome is. And I promise you, if we're carrying that like fun energy, people are gonna be drawn to us. Denise: Yeah, exactly. That I love that. Again, it's the goal is I feel like when you set that expectation again, it's it immediately puts a damper if you don't achieve that, right? You're like, my gosh, I didn't meet somebody. I'm never gonna meet somebody. Look how long it's been. And then you start to spiral and then for women at least, I think there's this you end up wreaking desperation, even if you don't mean to subconsciously. And I think people pick up on that. And that's where I think there's this issue where people are saying it's difficult to find love. I'm like, I think it's just they're we're looking for it too hard. That's my theory. Moon: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean to kind of play devil's advocate here, 'cause I completely agree with everything you you just said. There is also an element of like when people say like, hey, when you don't look for it, it'll happen. It's like, well, no, it it doesn't mean like you can just sit in your house all day and eventually something's gonna pop up. Like you still have to chase your ambitions, you still have to search find things that you find fulfilling, and when you s kind of like Denise: Yeah. Right. Moon: fill your life with those sorts of activities, then th the people are just gonna fall into naturally. yeah, but there's still like you gotta have a North Star, right? And it's so it doesn't necessarily have to be a relationship or a person, but something greater than yourself, maybe. Denise: Exactly. Exactly. Right, exactly. Like like you said, just I think going out and doing things is the key. You have to you can't just stay at your home and expect somebody to knock on your door. You have to go out and do stuff. And that's the hard part because it does even for me, I'm like, okay, I went out for three weeks, I didn't meet somebody, I don't want to go out for a while. It's like, come on. You develop this like scarcity mindset, even myself, and you really it takes constant reframing. And I don't know if you as an individual have had to work through that as well. Moon: Yeah. Yeah. Denise: But you just have to it's really a mind reframe. You have to just keep because I think that it's very common for us to want to gravitate towards the negative and f you know, it's much easier to think negatively, right? To think, my gosh, this is never gonna work out. Look at how many people are single. Look at how many people haven't found anybody. The dating pool sucks. It's much easier to think that than no, there's somebody out there for me. I just gotta keep out going out and having fun and living life and having a good time. And then eventually it comes when it's meant to come. Does it mean in a week, two weeks, a month, a year? We don't know. Moon: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then also like you have something to talk about then when you do go out, right? Like when you when you're like someone's like, hey, how's your day? What are you up to? And you're like, my goodness, I've had such a good week. Like I went here, I did this, you know, I played pickleball, whatever that may be. and that's that's exciting, right? That's exciting to talk about. but yeah, that's really what it boils down to is you wanna be excited about life. Denise: That's the thing. We really don't know. Right. Well, you're living yeah. Yeah. Right. Moon: And then people will be excited, right, to to to join your life, I guess. Denise: Exactly. Yeah. And then how do you on a personal lever level measure success? So say when you work with an individual, what is something that you would deem all right, I have achieved what I wanted to with this person? Moon: You know, it really just depends on like where my clients are on the spectrum of of dating, right? And so I would say most of my clients have all been in like the very early stages of dating. And so, you know, sometimes I get guys who come to my meeting, they're like, Hey, I recently got divorced. Like I've been married for twenty years. I don't know where to start. And I'm like, Yeah, I wouldn't know where to start either if I was Denise: wow, yeah. Moon: Lot has changed in twenty years, especially in terms of dating. and so realistically, sometimes I'm like, hey, this is probably gonna take like two years minimum of you like getting back into the rhythm of things. I don't think it's gonna happen overnight. Versus some sometimes I'll I'll have even friends that approach me who are like have a great career, feel good about themselves and they just need like a few tweaks here and there, right? And usually that kind of boils down more to like the technical stuff or even just the little nudge you need to have a little extra confidence go to go approach somebody. so it's really when they wherever they are on the spectrum, they could take another just a a another leap and just feel good about what they did, right? And so any sort of growth that we're able to like achieve is is perfectly fine with me. Like that's what I'm happy for. Ultimately, like I always feel the pressure. I'm like, man, I'd really want to get you a girlfriend, right? But that's Denise: Yeah. Moon: it's it's it's like a therapist hoping their you know their their client or their patient is gonna make this major breakthrough and they're gonna be successful in life. So yeah I definitely feel I don't know if pressure is the right word but I would love for all my clients to to fall fall in love or find a girlfriend or find a boyfriend. But I'll be happy if like they've never approached a woman and like got their number and they finally do it. Even if that number doesn't turn into anything. I'll be glad with the growth they had in terms of what they were able to do in the past versus what they are able to accomplish kind of moving. Denise: Right, because that gives them the skill set and the likelihood and increases their likelihood of actually meeting somebody, right? When they have that confidence to approach someone, to ask for their number, to start a conversation, whatever it is. Yeah. And then go ahead, sorry. Moon: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah yeah, no, I don't know if I answered your question, so Denise: No, y you did. And then as far as I want to go back to what you were saying, how men are saying women are doing well. What do you mean when you say their standards have changed? Is it are you talking from a financial standpoint, their emotional standpoint? I want it from a man's perspective. Because I do hear that often too, that there's an at least from my male friends, just an unfair expectation of the amount of money a man's supposed to make or Like I'm thinking of one particular friend where he says that women will go and they'll be like, Well, my ex boyfriend was made this amount of money or and I I'm like, Are you joking? Sometimes I think it's because I I just I can't imagine ever doing that. But also I I still feel like I'm sort of new to dating because I was married for nine years and then I too came out and was like, What on earth is this? So I don't know if it's me being naive and that's really how people are, or if he exaggerates a little bit of how women are. I just wanna hear what your what some of your clients' experiences are. Moon: Yeah, you know, I'll speak a little bit as a voice for not only not just my clients or even the guys who are at my men's meeting, but even just kind of the pulse on what I've gathered from like the internet essentially. And so I think what men will typically throw out as like this argument is this idea of hypergamy. Have you heard of hypergamy? It's the idea that generally women date across and up financially. Denise: No, I haven't. okay. Yeah. Moon: Right. So they either want someone who's making just as much money as them or more. Yeah. And so I i I don't think that's completely true. In my experience, every time I ask a woman that question, they're like, dude, I just want him to have a job, right? Like Yeah. I'm like, yeah, that's kind of in you know, again, I know like there's narrative on the internet that exists, but in real life, when I ask that question to women, they're like, I just want him to be able to like take care of himself, have a job, support himself, and that's Denise: Yeah, okay. Yeah, right, yeah. Moon: good enough for me, right? And so but you know, I do think there's a little bit of truth to that. Whereas men, and I'm not saying this is fairly judged, but there's a higher pressure probably on women on based on looks, right? But most guys aren't really concerned with what a woman does for her career, right? And so we'll we'll we'll date a woman who's like a cashier at McDonald's. Like if you if you're if you're beautiful and you have a really great personality, then it does not Denise: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Moon: versus for men now we have to they have to look good, right? They have to have great personalities. They have to have really good careers, right? so it's just kind of an added layer, I think. so yeah, not like my personal opinion, but based on like the consensus is that's how men are feeling these days. and so yeah, now there's competition, right? Like for these jobs, right? You know, women are doing really, really well, which means they're taking a lot lot of good white collar jobs, which means in theory there's a few of for for for guys now. so yeah, there's there's that, I think. And then there's this perception of like optionality, I think, now with online dating is that women have so many more options than men do. And so we're all kind of competing sometimes for for scraps is kind of how it feels. Denise: Yeah. That's interesting because I've always felt like on from my personal perspective, I like I don't feel like I had many options on dating out. So I don't know if it's just who knows, right? I I feel like it's such a like there's no cookie cutter way to put it in everyone's experience is so different and maybe I just don't I can't speak. Maybe my like my my friends had way more matches than me. I'm like, I have no idea. I don't think I have impossible standards. So it's very interesting. I would just I love to get a man's perspective 'cause again I for me I'm like They're like, you must have people flooding your inbox. I'm like, No, not really. I don't Moon: Well, you know what? Here's what I'll say. So I have a theory about about this, is what's happening is like in order to be considered in like the dating pool before online dating apps came out, like you had to go out approach women, right? And ask for their phone number, right? That was the only way you were considered to be in the dating pool. But once apps came out, like if you can download a app, you were like, Hey look, look at me. I I'm in the date I'm dater. I'm in the dating pool. Denise: Mm, yeah. Right. Right. Moon: So now women have to like weed through way more men who n necessarily didn't like develop the social skills to go approach women. And so that's the feedback I've received from my female friends is like, yeah, we have a lot of options, but dude, we have to weed out so many of right? And Denise: Yeah. Right. Yeah, like the conversation piece and stuff. They don't have like you know, the just to ask basic questions. To ask questions at all. Sometimes you get people that don't even ask questions. You're like, How does this work? And I haven't been in in dating apps probably for a couple of months at this point. And I don't e ever intend to go back. I'm not because they're bad. I think I I got what I needed to out of it. But yeah, it's interesting. It's a different world. Moon: Yeah. Yeah. so you know I'm gonna bring up another talking point. So I have I collaborate with a lot of different women who run singles mixers or singles events. And they always hit me up. They're like, Hey, I'm hosting event this week. I don't have enough guys. Can you help me like fill these seats? Like consistently they reach out to me in order to fill these seats. And so what you're finding, at least in I guess my age range, which is probably like thirties to forties. Denise: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Moon: Is all these events, there's not enough guys. And they were like, Where are these guys? Where are they? Where are they? Where are they? Where are they? And eventually I got asked enough that I had to kind of like figure out where all these guys were. but yeah, I think some of it boils down to these online dating apps are kind of killing their self-esteem and their confidence. I think there's also this element that which doesn't really get addressed, is like. Denise: Mm-hmm. Moon: Well, women say you need to go work on yourself. So guys are like, Okay, well I'm gonna go work on myself. So I'm not gonna date anyone and I need to like level up until I feel like you know, I'm a a good fit or I'm I meet the expectations of some of these women. So some of are just checking out in terms of just like, Well, I'm not gonna date unless like I feel like yeah, I could reach or match their level of income or whatever lifestyle, whatever that may be. Denise: Yeah, and and are you able to encourage men to go to these events? Are are you seeing success in that realm or is that looking at yeah, okay, yeah. Well, because you have a personal connection that helps, right? Yeah. Moon: I do. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I do. I do have a personal and so I hosted my my second singles mixer two weeks ago and I'm gonna be hosting my third one in August. So I'm I'm kinda getting to see what it's like on the other side from there too. Denise: Awesome. Yeah. And so you're getting a good ratio of men to women then. Sounds like. Moon: I do, yeah. I get you know what's interesting? All these what I've also realized is most of these singles events are all hosted by women, right? So they have a good reach in drawing in women. And so when I first started hosting a singles mixer, I like, Okay, this is gonna be easy to get women, it's gonna be hard to get men. But because I was a man hosting a singles event, I think women were a little bit more I don't know I don't know if suspicious is the right word, but men were much more willing to like fill up my seats, whereas I needed to kind of like Denise: Yeah. Moon: partner with someone to to get some women. Denise: Right. Seems like it needs to be a collaborative event on both ends. And yeah, yeah. It's funny though because again, on a personal level, I've also not gone to a lot of the events 'cause it does tend to be women, more women. And you make awesome female friends. I've met some cool people from those things, but yeah, generally it's not you don't really go th go with the expectation that many men are going to attend for whatever reason. Moon: Yeah. Yeah. you know, another aspect of it now that I'm thinking about it is, you know, it I think it's more intimidating for guy when you have a singles mixer, it's more intimidating for men than it is for women, right? Because the responsibility at these events is for men to approach and for men to put themselves out there and for men to get rejected, right? Whereas yeah, which isn't that's not a hundred percent true. I know a lot of women that approach men, ask for numbers and more power to them. Denise: interesting. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Moon: really appreciate that. But on average, it's I think it's easier for women to just show up to these events versus men have to show up and they have to like put themselves out there by approaching. And that can be really intimidating. Denise: Right. Yeah, there I would say I'm generally old fashioned where I w I would expect a man. I feel like it's that's what men were meant to do. They were meant to be the ones to initiate and then you of course lean in and then from there whatever needs to unfold unfolds. But yeah, it it's definitely scary, I can imagine, 'cause I wouldn't want to go up to Mananasara's number. It's terrifying. Moon: Yeah. You know what? Every time I'm out and I see women approach men, I will walk up to her and like high five them. And I'll be like, did there? That's really awesome. So Denise: Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, I guess I one of the things that I really want to do even on in a mac a micro level is just help people change their perception of dating. And how do you think we can do that? Because right now, again, I think the general consensus is that people hate dating. Like they just they think it's just a terrible experience. I've never heard anybody say anything positive. Somebody will always say because I have friends that are out of town, they'll be like, I bet you in San Diego it's much better. I bet you here it's much better. I'm like, I never heard anybody say anything positive about where they live. I know that like maybe because you know San Diego generally on the like the the aesthetics, right? Where everyone not everyone, but it's like it's a big fitness community, big health, there's a wide there's a lot of diversity. So I can see that. But if even in San Diego, us living here, wait do you hear people say anything positive about the dating pool, generally speaking? Moon: Yeah, I mean number one, dating should be fun and it can be. Yeah, it really can be. I mean, I I guarantee you there's people out there having fun with it. Maybe for some of the wrong reasons, right? but you know Yeah, different topics. They're mudding the water. They're mudding the water for everyone else, apparently. Denise: Right. Yeah different topic. Those are the people that are not right. They're not yeah, that's Moon: But no, it should be fun. Like dating should be fun. It should be stressful. And so what I would say is I think this this pendulum swing from dating fatigue and people are putting more energy into kind of in person events is a really good thing. Yeah. Again, I it'd be really hard for me to give someone advice if they lived in like a really small town. Like we're blessed to live in San Diego where there are so many of these events. Denise: Right. Moon: but I would encourage people to meet people out in in in the public. Like this there's this narrative among men that men can't approach women, right, in public. Denise: interesting. I really Moon: very much so. It's like you can never approach a woman in the gym, right? Denise: What I would do you know how many gym boyfriends I have? And not like they're mag like they don't know that they're my boyfriend, but I'm like my gym boyfriend from work, my gym boyfriend from here. I'm just waiting for the day he comes up and talks to me. Moon: What? Yeah. And it and it's because like, you know, some sometimes again, it it's a very small portion of the internet, but you have these some some women who are like posting videos of like guys who are like looking at them and they'll post it and like shame men, right? Joey Swole does a really good thing where he kind of corrects people's gym etiquette and most a lot of his videos are like women who are like Denise: Yeah. Moon: kind of clickbaiting people into like, look at this guy looking at me like really creepily and stuff. And he's like, no, he's not doing that. And so the narrative right now is you're not allowed to approach men. Or excuse me, you're not allowed to approach women in public. And so part of that was like the Me Too movement. we're still having some residual effects from that. and s and so when I say a lot of men say this is in most of the people on the internet. but it's okay to approach people. You can talk to anyone. You can Denise: my gosh. Right. Yeah. Moon: If you do it respectfully, right, you can talk to everyone. What happens is these guys go out and they do it, they objectify women, or they're just a little too aggressive, or they just don't know how to communicate their interests, they don't know how to flirt, and so they make things really, really awkward. And then they put women in like this position of Denise: Right. Moon: Like putting them kind of in an awkward position, right? So can you imagine if I walked up to you and they're like, Hey, I thought you were really cute. Do you think I get your number? Like, even if you thought I was attractive, you'd probably be like, no, dude. Like I don't even know you. Like, can we have a conversation first, right? And I think that's the missing piece, is like you have to figure out. Like I talk about like like gears of a car. Like you need to start in first gear, right? And and sometimes y I don't go past first gear. Denise: Right. Yeah, right. Right, yeah. Moon: Like I don't I don't get the signals from them. They're they're interested and so I stay in first gear. Some people I go to second gear, some go to third gear, fourth gear, hey, really enjoyed talking with you. Would love to get your number take you out some time. Great, right? If you're if you're getting that feedback back, that's when you kinda escalate. But what's happening is I think guys just don't have those skills right now. Denise: Right. Yeah. And I would say do you it's the internet, right? That's what's gonna kind of dilute it everything? I would imagine so, because I I wanna go back to that. I wish we could go back to the days where men had to approach women in public. That that would be great, 'cause that would that would really a as a woman I want the guy to approach me, but I don't know how to make myself approachable. I think I have like a warm demeanor. I wouldn't but I don't know. Moon: You know what? I would love to teach a class on how women can make themselves more approachable. Because I yeah, I will see some of the things that women do. I've even talked to my friends out there. when we're out at like cocktail lounges or bars or whatever. I can tell they want people to approach, but it it's they do it. I don't think they're conscious of like how they're appearing or standing or sitting. yeah, I don't know. Denise: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well hey, if you if you teach a class, I'm I'm gonna sign up for it because clearly I'm not doing something right. Moon: So you re you you don't think you you're making yourself approachable? Denise: I I don't think so, right. Or I mean I I might not be, no. Because I also don't want to like sit there and like creepily stare at somebody who's working out, right? There's like it's a you wanna show interest but not desperation. So how do you Yeah. Moon: Yeah. What about like some of these if you don't mind me asking, like what about like these you talk about like you have some gym crushes or whatever? Like what what would you do? What do you do to like engage with them? Denise: Absolutely nothing. Moon: Okay. Denise: Nothing. I just mind my business. Moon: So let me let me give you this. Let me give you the story. I joined like my friends and like girls night one one night. So I'm the guy. I'm just kind of listening to everything. And my friend is telling a story about this really cute guy she saw at the gym. So she goes, you know, so I'm at the gym and I looked at him like this. And then I walked away, and then I gave him like this look. I gave him this look. I gave him this look. And then my other friend was like, my god, could you have been any more clear? And in my head, I was like, Denise: Ha ha. Moon: Yes, a thousand percent yes. You could have been more clear. Yeah, how about hi? How about hi? Right? It's completely non-verbal. They're just trying to make eye contact and smile. Like there's so much more you can do to that if you're if you're interested in some. Denise: Really? That's yeah. Yeah, you know what, I probably do minimal eye contact and smile, but again I do minimal eye contact and smile anyways. I'm pretty I've been told I'm a pretty smiley person, so maybe that's not it. Moon: And and you know what? I understand that side of women too, right? Because I've even even heard women say, like, dude, I wanna be friendly. But like anytime I'm friendly, guys mistake it as flirty. And then I'm in this like weird, awkward position. So I understand that stance too, where they're reluctant to do that because they won don't want to lead on. So it's kind of like a catch twenty-two. It's like, damn, dude, I really wanna be social and be friendly. But like every time I do, guys misinterpret it and they're just like Denise: Right. Right. Moon: I gotta like turn down or they make it awkward and I I wish I could just like talk to them like Denise: Yeah. There that's true too. They misconstrue friendliness, right? And immediately they're like, my gosh, she likes me. Let me just they immediately jump the gun. So yeah, it it's difficult. There's really no one size fits all approach, I think. But but yeah. I think people could benefit from that though, making themselves more welcoming. Mm-hmm. Moon: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. More approachable I would say. again I don't I don't know if I'm on the auth I don't know if I'm the authority to like to coach women on how to make themselves more approachable, but I think it'd be a fun conversation if. Denise: Yeah, no, I think it's good because you're I mean, at the end of the day you're a man and you know what would help you want to approach a woman or feel welcome to approach a woman. So I think from that standpoint it does help. And we as women think again, we don't want to come off as desperate or we think we're doing enough by just looking at somebody and saying hi, but again you're saying that a lot of men are cautious or overly cautious, so there's that too. Moon: There is. Yeah. Yeah. What I would say is like when you're out and about and you want to get approached, you should stay casually mobile. Right. And so the minute you sit down is when you're cutting off. Like most guys aren't gonna approach women that are sitting down. That's like a clear sign of like, hey, I'm with my group and I don't want to interact with you. Right. Yeah. And then also when you notice that when like when men when men approach women, it's always like when they're on like the fringes of their friend group. Denise: So so yeah. interest. Okay. Moon: Or it's on their way back into from the bar, right? That's when it kind of opens up a little bit. but the hardest is when women like group together with their friends. Like yeah, I kind of joke. It's like National Geographic, like when all the elephants are like guarding the baby. And then it's like we're just trying to figure out like how to get into this like armor. So when you kind of like open up even like the way Denise: yeah, yeah. Right. Ha ha ha. Yeah. Moon: you guys stand together where it's a little bit more inviting. I think it it's more guys would approach if if if th those were the signals. But also I understand like sometimes there's creepy guys out there. And so you do have to huddle up to like shoe guys who are being inappropriate, way too aggressive. And so I see both sides of it. Denise: Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, I wanna ask you one final question. It's kind of a broad question, but I just your thoughts. What would you tell somebody, a man particularly, who is struggling to find love and just is over 'cause I I've talked to a lot of men that are like that where they're just like, I'm just done dating. Women are unrealistic. I just I I don't want anything to do with it. So I just what would be your words to somebody who's struggling? Moon: Boy, that's a that's a good one. you know, going back to y your philosophy, I think like once you find things that like fill your own cup, right? Like you want s you want to find someone that's gonna complement your life, not like supplement it, right? So I think you and I briefly talked about like like you don't wanna like you don't wanna f have to find someone to fill the void in you, right? So if you need to take a break from Denise: Right. Moon: From dating, I think that's a good thing. There is what is that art of war? Like there's value in retreat, right? Kind of recenter yourself, find things that make you happy internally. or maybe that's finding a community, finding a bigger social circle, finding a a new hobby, whatever that fills your cup. And then and then when you start dating, you'll being a little bit more discerning, right? And more cautious about who you Denise: Right. Mm-hmm. Moon: bring into your life because you don't want to disrupt like this good foundation that you've set up. so yeah, I I and if I'm being honest, I just don't have a good answer for that question. Denise: No, that's a great answer. Honestly, it ties into everything that I talk about in previous episodes. So it's it's beautiful. That's a a lot of what I say is really just setting the foundation with yourself first and foremost. So essentially you're saying that in different words and I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to be here today. I will link Moon Moon's Instagram handle in the show notes and thank you all so much for listening. I'll see you guys next week. Moon: Yeah, yeah. Denise: Let's stop.