Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / Bringing It to Life #4: Dealing with High Conflict Personalities in Academia
Transcript
- Speaker 1 (00:05): Welcome to, it's All Your Fault On True Story fm, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and deal with the most challenging human interactions, those with someone who may have a high conflict personality. I'm Megan Hunter and I'm here with my co-host, bill Eddie. Hi everybody. We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California where we focus on training, consulting, coaching, and educational programs and methods, all to do with high conflict. In today's episode, we're going to talk about high conflict situations and kind of a bully in the academic environment, or I guess Bill, you'll tell us if there is bullying going on in this question. So this is again part of our Bring it to Life series, but first, a couple of notes. Send your high conflict related questions to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or on our website@highconflictinstitute.com slash podcast where you'll also find all the show notes and links. Speaker 1 (01:10): Let's bring this scenario, this situation to life. This is from someone in the academic environment who says, I've worked with the same person for 14 years. He belittles and then builds up pushes until he brings me to tears and does the same to other women. He takes up almost the entire conversation in any meeting, he takes away power unless he bestows it. He speaks poorly of others, including his boss and spreads rumors. He appears concerned for people's wellbeing and then betrays trust. On top of all this, he has hired a communication consultant who is trying to help all of his team who happened to all be women communicate better. As a side note, the team gets along fine with each other. He seems immune to any advice, the consultant and parts. He was investigated by human resources prior to my coming on board in my predecessors role for being abusive and creating a toxic environment, he is well known around the organization for his behavior. Speaker 1 (02:16): I am planning to step away from this situation. My predicament is that I love the work I do. I am an educator at a large university and my boss is very well known in the business and in this community. I can't exactly say in an interview that I'm leaving my work because of my boss because it will get back to him eventually. He has many fans and many will not believe me unless they've had close dealings with him. Additionally, this boss has been flexible with me through illness, but also holds it against me. My departure will surely trigger a lot of questions across the university. I am at an executive level and still have another decade of good work ahead of me. I'm in good standing and have met and exceeded expectations year after year in reviews. I'm also looking to avoid possible retaliation. He still holds a grudge and readily speaks poorly of my predecessor from 14 years ago. Speaker 1 (03:17): What advice do you have for this situation? So Bill, I know as I'm reading that everything's just clicking in my mind. Check, check, check, check, check. This is the behaviors we see and the environment that's created with a possible high conflict personality. And I think the part that strikes me the most, and I know you have a lot to say about this, but what strikes me the most is how do you stand up for yourself when this other person has so many fans and people want to believe that this person is wonderful and the charm and the fairy dust is sprinkling over them that comes from him. So anyway, let's break this down. Let's just start with what did you see in this or hear in this question that would give you an indication that there might be high conflict behavior going on here? Speaker 2 (04:06): Oh, many, many things. Or Speaker 1 (04:08): I could put it another way. What doesn't? What doesn't, right? Speaker 2 (04:11): Right. It's the extremes. We hear people say, so-and-so's kind of a jerk. Every once in a while he says something inappropriate. We just go to lunch with him, but I don't anymore. That's different from high conflict. People who really persistently have a pattern of conflict, it's intense. People go, oh my goodness, people fell rotten. People can't sleep. People get stomach aches. People quit working. For institutions that have someone like this, what we often like to say is the issue's not the issue. The personality's the issue. It's not the position people are in, it's the personality that guides in terms of what needs to be done. And this sounds very much a workplace bully, but the problem in higher education is once they have tenure, it's extremely hard to fire them. And so people say, how do we manage them? And the more extreme, the more extreme measures need to be used to manage them. Speaker 2 (05:23): First of all, you have to have the organization on board for setting limits because if the organization is empowering this person, you're not going to get limits. Set limits generally one person can't set limits unless they're in a position of authority over a bully. But targets victims, colleagues, even one person is usually not enough because they have unrestrained aggressive behavior. And so it takes more of group restraint or organizational restraint. I do believe that in some cases that people can be fired even with tenure, that there are grounds for that. Once you get an organization to see what's really happening in the meantime, if an organization limits what they have, power over limits the decision making they have limits, the classes they have. People have been restricted that way sometimes when they have tenure, but that's by a department head or a division head who sees what's going on and what needs to be done. Speaker 2 (06:38): In some cases, let's say the organization isn't aware yet. It's helpful to go to an ombuds person and ombuds people are generally trained to help you resolve conflicts you may have within an organization and they may have some tips, but they also may have support is going, I can empathize with you. I hear what you're going through. This is a hard situation. I don't have the power to fix it as an ombuds person, but I have resources. I'm someone you can talk to from time to time who can keep it confidential unless there's certain limitations on confidentiality. It's not unusual that people leave a situation like this sad and tragic as it is that they leave because they just can't. Emotionally and health-wise tolerate it. People ask, is there more high conflict personalities in higher education? I think probably yes because it's so tolerant. In my new book, our New World of Adult Bullies, I have a case example of someone who worked for a university as a researcher who was horrible and they tolerated the person with complaints for about three years. That person didn't have tenure and they fired the person who then sued the university, and that took another three years or four years, but the university won because they did everything right. But high conflict, people don't stop themselves. They keep going. So universities need to look harder at who they're hiring and who they're giving tenure to. Usually this behavior shows up within a year and it usually takes more than a year to get tenure, so they need to know what to look for. So that's my initial thoughts. Speaker 1 (08:41): Tenure to me just seems to be a license to have continue high conflict behaviors. It's really hard to pull that back. Almost impossible. I think, and I know in some universities there are guidelines or regulations that do allow termination at some point, but you have to have a very strong case, I would think in order to put that into effect. And it takes a lot of courage because there's going to be blowback and a tenured professor who has a high conflict personality is likely going to get a pretty large group of negative advocates and could be quite vocal about it, maybe even to the media. So tenure, it's a tough one, and we've done some training at universities where this is the problem, and even some tenured professors who see someone who's on track for tenure who they recognize as someone with high conflict behaviors, they see this train coming and there's nothing they can do to stop it. So it can be a tough situation. So let's switch to this listener's question. So on a day-to-day basis, let's say the decision's been made that I can't leave, I need to stay. How do I survive day to day in this position for the next decade without losing my mind? Speaker 2 (10:11): Right, right. Well, I always recommend what we call the course method, which I apply in most situations to dealing with high conflict people. So the C stands for connecting. So try to connect with the person either with empathy or attention or respect. A lot of bullies are manageable because they really don't have good control over themselves and they get agitated and upset, but other people can calm them. Say, I know it's a hard time and I respect your efforts. Often there's something you can respect and that helps them calm down. Then the A is for analyzing options. So look at choices, look at your own choices, help the person look at their choices. Say, I know this is a tough situation, let's look at your options here. And that gets them to think and that gets them out of the reacting mind as much and more they're thinking, the better chance you have of them being reasonable. Speaker 2 (11:18): So helping them analyze options, respond, that's the R respond to hostility or misinformation by providing useful information. Don't argue with their misinformation, just say, here's some information you may not have. Here's something you need to know. And of course a lot of this is done in writing and we recommend our method, our Biff method, brief, informative, friendly, and firm. And the last is setting limits and imposing consequences. S-L-I-C-A slick solution sometimes is necessary. So with setting limits, you say, this is what I can do or this is what I can't do. In many cases, if you're dealing with a peer with a colleague, you don't have any control over them. So you can just say, I can't help you if you don't do such and such, or I am not willing to meet with you if you're going to be talking that way. So you say what you're going to do, set what the limit is and what the consequence is. Speaker 2 (12:30): Then if they violate the limit, then impose the consequence and say, well, this conversation's over, I can see you've decided that I'm going to have to end it. So the connect with them to the extent you can help analyze options, respond to misinformation and set limits on what you're willing to do. I think the more people that catch on and realize they're doing this behavior with everybody, if it's a pattern of behaviors, not just with you and that other people will catch on. And so if you can help other people take this kind of approach, then you may eventually be able to narrow this person's range of behavior. And in some cases, high conflict. People leave when everybody around them catches on that they're really difficult and sets limits with them and does it with empathy, attention and respect. Again, people aren't evil, people aren't horrible. People are born sometimes this way. People may be abused and become this way. We spend much too much time judging people and not enough looking at strategies to help ourselves and even to help them. So those are a few tips. Speaker 1 (13:56): Yeah, thank you Bill. And along that line of no shame, no blame, no judgment is not everyone is conflict typical. It's like teaching one way to the whole class. In conflict it's the same. You can't use the same skills or strategies with everyone. There is a line that certain people will cross the that high conflict brain will cross this line, and once they're across that line, it's what we do with everyone else doesn't work. So the cars method is so helpful, and I was thinking as you were talking, bill, that when you apply the cars method, you end up becoming the letter B, which is boring and boring is what you want to be because it keeps you or mitigates the risk of becoming target of blame, which could happen still, but probably will reduce that risk. So let's take a short break and we'll be right back. Speaker 1 (15:07): Okay, we're back and let's keep talking about sort of the next place we just finished with what to do if you decide to stay, but what do you do if you, and how do you affect leaving your position? Because in this particular case, there's the messaging going out to the community and we all know that just about in any industry or environment, it can go beyond where your specific environment is and way out into other universities, other states, even other countries. So we don't want to get in a position where we are blacklisted or badmouthed. So how do we leave when we decide to leave? How do we answer those questions? Honestly in the exit interview without triggering some backlash and retaliation, Speaker 2 (16:03): This is another area of choices and judgment calls. If the whole organization likes the person who's a bully and you're leaving to get away from the bully, it may be appropriate not to say to the organization, well, I'm leaving because you have a bully here because they're going to go, well, you're leaving because you can't get along with somebody. You have a problem. And so you may not want to leave that way. On the other hand, I think it really helps organizations to know people are quitting because we have a bully here. And so if there is someone that you feel safe to talk to, you may want to let them know, this, this, and this is happening. I know someone else who left now I'm leaving. Your organization's going to be harmed by losing good people because of this one difficult personality. And so you need to know that it's a judgment call between those two. Speaker 2 (17:13): If you're leaving and don't feel safe saying why, there's just say the least you possibly can. A lot of people say, well, I've got some better opportunities. Also, one thing before I forget it is if you're leaving and you need a paycheck is get another job before you leave this job. Get yourself pretty confident you've got another option before you leave this. Because sometimes a bad situation doesn't look so bad when you have no job and people go, oops, I burned the bridge and now I can't go back. So keep in mind that things could be worse. All of this is a judgment call. We really don't tell people what to do, but we help people analyze how to deal with situations. So this is real personal, but it's not unusual. Higher education and healthcare are two places that attract high conflict people because they're tolerated. These are both helping industries and in a helping industry, everybody feels like they have to be nice to everybody and they often tolerate bad behavior much too long. So just be aware if you're in these industries that you will be running into some bullies and keep your eyes open so you don't get stuck or get too close and get burned. Speaker 1 (18:46): Absolutely, keep those eyes wide open and keep yourself boring. And if you are headed to that exit interview, you've made the decision to leave and now you have to go there and you want to get this off your chest and you want someone to understand what you've been going through and how awful this other person is, just fast forward in your mind a month. Kind of imagine yourself one month out from leaving the exit interview. Is it that important a month on to have said those things and just sort of set yourself up to potentially be a target. A lot of things kind of diminish over time and high conflict can have such a big impact on us, but a little time away you start to feel a bit better about it. So alright, so let's go on to what not to do. What shouldn't you do in situations like this bill? Speaker 2 (19:39): In addition to the cars method of what to do, we say there's four, forget about it, four things not to do. One is don't try to give a high conflict person insight into themselves. They're going to hear it as a criticism and attack you. If they're a high conflict person, if they're not a high conflict person, they're going to feel insulted and just not be happy with you. So trying to give people insight, how can I make her see her part in the problem or how can I make him understand this is mostly his fault? If sentences like that start forming in your mind, just substitute the word, forget about it. They don't do that. They hear all feedback as negative and they defend against it. That's part of the pattern. Second is don't get stuck arguing about the past. Don't focus on the past. Speaker 2 (20:41): High conflict, people are constantly arguing about the past. They don't grieve and heal the way most people do when there's a major loss and then move forward. For some reason they don't have that mechanism, the grieving and healing process. So they carry around a lot of upset emotions and they keep trying to rewrite the past. It's like I didn't do anything wrong and the other people did everything wrong. So if they can successfully rewrite the past, then they don't have to grieve and heal anything. So that's why that happens. And the third is related to emotions. Don't open up emotions. Don't say, so how do you feel about that awful thing that happened? Or even how do you feel today? Because high conflict, people generally don't feel good and it focuses them on how they feel and that makes them feel worse. So you want to say, what did you think of that game yesterday? Speaker 2 (21:41): Or how about the weather today? Rather than how do you feel? And the fourth forget about it is forget about telling them. They're a high conflict person, telling them that they're an alienating person, telling them they have a personality disorder, telling them they're a bully, telling them they're a perpetrator. All those words just trigger upset feelings for actually everybody. Nobody likes to be labeled, so don't call them a high conflict person. So those are the four. Forget about it, insight, forget about it the past, forget about you can't win those arguments. Focus on what to do now. Choices now opening up emotions, forget about it and calling people names. Forget about it. None of that helps. Speaker 1 (22:32): It's good advice. Kind of like kindergarten. So I know a phrase we often hear when someone's dealing with someone along the spectrum is, if you would would only, so if you find yourself saying those words, if you would just think about what you're doing, if you would just stop and think about this before you say it, that's a sign to yourself that you're dealing with high conflict. Because most people would stop and think about those things, but the high conflict brain, Speaker 2 (23:07): Yeah, that's a good point. When you're starting to feel that way or even act that way, that's a diagnostic symptom of dealing with high conflict. People take a break, take a breath and figure out what to do logically, not emotionally. Speaker 1 (23:25): On that point, I think it's also important to say, to talk about what do we do if we do snap? Being around high conflict can be the most aggravating, frustrating, and depending on how our day or how our life is going, some people are more apt to finally snap than others. It happens, right? We're human. It's real life. So you've snapped. Now you look like a moron, right? You look like the one who's high conflict because all of a sudden you're loud and let's say the high conflict individual hasn't even been loud, they've just been annoying the hell out of you and getting under your skin and all of these things. So then you snap and you look guilty, you look hotheaded. So how do you come back from that? Speaker 2 (24:14): Well, I think first you got to take a break and calm yourself down. So you deal with things logically, not emotionally. Talk to somebody that's a support person for you, and then see if you need to do any repair work. You may need to talk to some people. Let's say you're in an office and three people heard you that you may need to talk to them individually. Let them know, Hey, I let myself get too frustrated. Such and such happened and then I overreacted and that's my part in the problem and I need to not do that. Again, depending on who you're talking to, you can apologize and say, I'm sorry I did that. If it's a high conflict person, we generally don't recommend apologies. They use that to dominate you. They use that as ammunition against you. And so instead figure out just what to do in the future rather than focusing on the past. Speaker 2 (25:16): Apologies pull you into the past and you don't really want to go there with high conflict. People don't demand that they apologize. Also, that's another problem is just figure out what to do in the future and regroup. And again, it's a judgment call. What to do if you've overreacted. I want to caution people, be careful. You don't let yourself get to that point. I was reading recently about a case where somebody was getting picked on in the workplace and they finally reacted and got into a physical fight and they both got fired and it's like, well, but that guy was picking on me, but you shouldn't have hit him or you shouldn't have hit him back. Now you both hit each other and that's against our company's policy and we're going to fire both of you. So you're a little late in the game. If there's someone you can talk to, calm yourself down. Don't take this stuff personally. Memorize phrases. It's not about me. The issue's not the issue. Things like that. Speaker 1 (26:26): I do a good job at what I do. I think a lot of folks feel like that really starts to take a hit on their self-esteem and you can start to feel really worn down. Like, I'm not good at what I do. I should probably go do whatever else that isn't this and maybe I won't even be good at that. So you have to remind yourself, and I think this is really important that everyone else I deal with, this particular listener said Everyone else on our team, we all get along fine together. So remind yourself that I get along fine with other people. I actually do a very good job and I like my job. So stick to those things, make those the sticky things and make this the minor thing. Right. Speaker 2 (27:08): Excellent. Excellent. Yes. I'm so glad you said that, Megan, that if what you tell yourself makes all the difference in the world and don't join the bully in criticizing yourself, join your friends in encouraging yourself. Speaker 1 (27:24): Yeah, don't join the bully. Excellent. Excellent. Speaker 1 (27:33): Alright, well we're going to have a link to your new book, our New World of Adult Bullies coming out in June. And next week we're going to talk with a special guest, Kate Merrill, who is an attorney that has dealt with a lot of high conflict financial disruptions, people who manipulate finances. So that ought to be pretty fascinating. In the meantime, send your questions to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or submit them to high conflict institute.com/podcast. We'd love it if you tell your friends and colleagues about us and we'd be grateful if you'd leave us a review. Until next time, keep learning and practicing these skills. Be kind to yourself and others while we all try to find the missing piece. It's All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins and Ziv Moran. Find the show notes and transcripts at True story fm or high conflict institute.com/podcast. 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