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Clinic Owner & Product Founder: What It Really Takes to Build a Rehab Device · No Appointment Necessary

• 0:00
  Michael: Welcome to the latest episode.
• 0:01
  Michael: Um, and quite excited today because we have a physio and an inventor, which is kind of an interesting combination.
• 0:09
  Michael: And he's done that thing that I hear everyone talk about.
• 0:11
  Michael: Every physio on the world is always talking to me about how do I create a product?
• 0:15
  Michael: How do I do things?
• 0:16
  Michael: And how do I do online things?
• 0:17
  Michael: And Matt's kind of been there and done it.
• 0:19
  Michael: So, Matt, give us a quick introduction into who you are, and then we're gonna run off into a really good conversation.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, Michael.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me on.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: My name is Matt Anstey.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: I am the clinic owner at a clinic outside of London called Azuro Physiotherapy and Training.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I have alongside my brother, who's an engineer, invented a device for restoring and maximizing ankle range of motion called the AFlex Pro.
• 0:48
  Michael: Sounds quite sexy, the AFlex Pro.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: Sounds I don't know, almost like we've learned a long a lot along this journey.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: The Pro was the idea was we went into Elite Sport, and that's where we were testing it.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: The first iterations of it were um funded by a government grant, which allowed us to 3D print, and we would 3D print a prototype, send it to my friend who was working at London Irish Rugby Club at the time.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: They could uh come back for some feedback uh about it being too small, which was quite a funny thing because it was being used by blokes with size 15 feet, and so we had to make it bigger and more resilient and tougher and change the shape and the angles and all that sort of stuff.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's where the pro came from.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: We thought this is going to be used in pro sport, and it has that has been a big market for us, but of course, one of the big things now is in the rehab sector.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Another avenue that we've got down.
• 1:44
  Michael: So let's let's just get on to that.
• 1:46
  Michael: So um you see see, I wasn't joking when I said inventor.
• 1:49
  Michael: Um, but is the inventor really you or your brother?
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: My idea.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I came up with the idea a few years ago.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: I busted my own ankle and I just could not get my range of motion back, and it was just doing my head in.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like no matter what I tried, you know, I'd use all the techniques that I would try to do on my patients.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, nothing was shifting my stiffness, and I'm I love going to the gym and running, and and I couldn't do those things because of the stiffness in my ankle to the extent that I would like, and that's a hell of a motivator.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then I went to my brother and said, Surely we can build something that uh you know helps to mobilize the joint that was stiff in my ankle.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was very selfish reasons for inventing it.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: And we built a prototype in my mum's garden using scraps of wood, and so it was really like rough around the edges.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: And in the first use, I used it the first time and it improved my knee to wall, which is a measure of um angle range, by four centimetres within 30 seconds after l probably 12 to 13 months of not budging at all, and it was and now I wish I'd filmed that moment, yes, because that would have been really good marketing, but I didn't.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: But that excitement at that moment we kind of really knew that something it was something worth pursuing, and now we've gone fully into the rabbit hole, and yeah, it's sort of out there in the big wide world, which has been a bit of a roller coaster for sure.
• 3:19
  Michael: So at that point you were running a physio clinic, you came up with this new idea, and it was it was at that exact point that you thought I've got a product here and I want to build a company around it.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean the the benefit it brought me, I immediately thought of because I ran the sports injury clinic at that time as well.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: I used to I would ran my clinic, but I had I was still worked in the NHS and ran the sports injury clinic for bucks, and you know, you see so many ankle injuries, so many people that you try and mobe the crap out of their ankle, not really see it shift much, send them away, and ultimately after a few sessions, seeing them every six weeks on the NHS schedule, accepting that I'm sorry, mate, you're gonna have a really stiff ankle for the rest of your days, probably.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so my first thought was just back to those people and thinking, oh my gosh, there's so many people out there wandering around that I know this could help.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so that's sort of led to the the drive to then go and turn it into something very real, and you can't use you can't sell a prototype made of wood that you've built out of scraps of wood in your mum's back garden.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: So that then led us to looking at what our options were, which was as I say, government grant um from a um service in Birmingham in the in the Midlands, which is where my brother went to university.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: He's an engineer from the University of Birmingham.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: So we sort of linked up with that, and then that allowed us to refine the prototype, and yeah, it's now a lovely, smooth, sexy, kind of polished device.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: It looks awesome, I think.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: And um yeah, but it it didn't always look like that.
• 5:02
  Michael: Well, interestingly, I as you can imagine, I get a lot of products put in front of me, like literally every day of some shiny new, vibrating, coloured wand of some sort.
• 5:11
  Michael: Um, and what people don't know is I don't make decisions on this stuff, something's good or not.
• 5:15
  Michael: I always pass it past people I know are you know really good clinically.
• 5:18
  Michael: And I remember when I first came across A Flex, I sent it to a couple of people and they were like, oh my god, this is fucking awesome.
• 5:24
  Michael: I love this.
• 5:25
  Michael: So no more promotion beyond if you are if you want to have a look at A Flex, it's a very cool product.
• 5:30
  Michael: Just search A Flex Pro on Google and you'll find it.
• 5:34
  Michael: What I really want to do today is cover a few different things because I think you've got some unique perspectives in terms of being a clinic owner, moving into creating a product, but now also doing the one thing that everyone's always tried to do, which is go online.
• 5:50
  Michael: And this is kind of like the holy grail of of what physios want to do.
• 5:54
  Michael: And I think also you've got a perspective because you you do have a very I I would put you in the pot of I don't know how to say this without being rude or I'll put you, let's let's say I'll put you into the ethical physio crowd where toys are not really yeah.
• 6:09
  Michael: So uh which I think is a is a thing, is an interesting perspective to to have as well.
• 6:13
  Michael: So let's talk through the clinic.
• 6:15
  Michael: You're running the clinic.
• 6:16
  Michael: What's for anyone looking at creating a product, what is the big difference?
• 6:20
  Michael: Because I imagine there is what is the big difference between running a clinic and having a product to sell?
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: Familiarity was the first thing I'd say.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think running the clinic was the bread and butter.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's sort of I went to university and I studied physiotherapy, and then you went into the NHS, and then you learn you apply your trade, and then so that is the environment that I was very, very comfortable in and had built a really good local reputation in.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's that familiarity, and then this product um has brought me to places that give me imposter syndrome almost every week, and it's a mad world, really, where you're constantly learning new stuff that you've never come across before and so and solving problems.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I would say on that point, I love being a clinic owner just myself.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: I actually started, I launched my this clinic with a business partner, and it just didn't work because we had different visions of what physiotherapy should be.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so that lasted six months, and in the end I bought them out, and it was all a bit messy, and and uh I hope they're not watching this because uh yeah, it's it wasn't uh that wasn't great.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I love being a sole clinic owner because I have a vision and I, you know, I'm very passionate about that, and I feel I can implement that vision better when it's just me, whereas with the product, and my brother and I I think that skill set has been very, very, very important.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: The complementary skill sets that his engineering, meticulous, problem-solving brain uh is very important for some aspects of that, and then my kind of slightly more driven driving forwards and and a bit more kind of scatter brainy type thing.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm the ideas man and he's the executor, executor, I think.
• 8:10
  Michael: I think it's always uh a lot easier when you have two very different roles and you have expertise in one area and someone else has expertise in another.
• 8:18
  Michael: When it's two physios, you're just gonna fight over manual bloody therapy or something.
• 8:22
  Michael: Um and when it's applicable, yeah.
• 8:24
  Michael: I think that's that's that's much, much easier.
• 8:27
  Michael: In terms of the comparison between running a clinic and uh running a product, what are we talking about in terms of, for example, the cost, the capital, the margins?
• 8:38
  Michael: Like there's a lot of physicians who I'm sure have a, and I say physicists in the broader term of MSK clinicians, who have great ideas, whether it's software, whether it's a product or whatever.
• 8:48
  Michael: But it's interesting to to hear from someone who's done it what the difference is in terms of expenditure, your margins, stress as well.
• 8:54
  Michael: What would you what what advice or what information would you give to people?
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: You certainly aren't expecting return on investment in the early stages.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas, of course, when I first set up my clinic, it was a lot more transactional and a lot more I'm gonna spend this money on marketing, and I would expect that immediate return on investment.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas developing a product, there is an enormous amount of upfront capital.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: Thankfully, I think I still believe, thankfully, have not accrued any debt.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I've paid for this out of profits from the clinic, and we've retained 100% of the business between the two of us, and but we at times have been absolutely blown away at how much sacrifice you have to make to make it work because it's so there's so many obstacles, challenges.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: Went down the road of patenting, so we've patented a around basically the whole of Europe, North America, Australia, you know, we we we've quite we've got IP protection and all those areas, and the costs the upfront costs of those are high, and what they don't tell you is the recurring costs.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um and when somebody uh challenges your patent in a territory and your patent attorney um who charges£500 an hour goes and and makes a case against that and and the costs of that accrue very quickly.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: So we're now starting to see some decent profit, and that's not all-time profit.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: We haven't made our investment back yet, but that's sort of now we bring in much more than we spend, which is really nice, but that process has been four years in the making, which it was not what I would say about the the clinic, basically.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so that's been a bit of a yeah.
• 10:43
  Michael: I think a a lot of clinic owners, and and I do agree, running any kind of business is really, really hard.
• 10:48
  Michael: I think, particularly if you're a physioclinician, kind of, as you say, familiarity, but it isn't that complex.
• 10:55
  Michael: It's stressful and it's hard and all of those things, but it's not that complex.
• 10:59
  Michael: When you throw in supply chain, when you throw in legal issues, when you throw in shipping issues, I'm sure there's at some point you've had shipping disasters and issues, and you also have probably three, I imagine three markets that you're selling to, which is pro sport, clinicians, and then the public themselves.
• 11:15
  Michael: That in itself, you're now selling to three different people.
• 11:17
  Michael: That's really bloody difficult.
• 11:19
  Michael: And so um I I think I I always say to people like before creating a new soft piece of software or a product, whatever it might be, go and talk to some people who've done it.
• 11:28
  Michael: Because if you think running a clinic is hard, this is much, much harder, generally, unless you've got some big millionaire behind you who's throwing money at it.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: The comp yeah, you're right, actually.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: The complexity is a is a very key part of what makes it quite enjoyable in some ways because clinic, clinical work, you know, every patient is different, yada yada yada, but ultimately it's like this recipe of customer service, good outcomes, and making people feel supported, that you care, empathy, and then they go and tell their friends, and then their friends come for physio.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that sort of actually comes quite naturally if you're relatively okay with the customer-facing kind of service.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: But that is almost the smallest part of the product-based stuff, which is all the back end, making sure everything works, like you say, fulfillment, IP, medical device status, which we worked really hard to get as well.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and a lot of that is the legislative, and then it's the custom, you know, making sure your customers are happy at the very end of that entire, you know, other stuff.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really been a big eye-opener for me and my brother about how tough it really is to go and do this.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: But you've trapped, you spent too much money on it to ever, ever consider you know, letting it you you before it crosses your mind, you think blame, is this is this really worth it?
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: We're spending all of our life savings on this almost.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: But you get the vision and then you get the feedback from people like yourself and and your network, and that's what makes you think, right?
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: No, they this is genuinely a thing that people need, and there's you know, that keeps pushing one with it.
• 13:07
  Michael: Yeah, and of course, just touching back on the difference, you have insane costs for people that you don't have costs for in the clinic.
• 13:14
  Michael: So legal is a is a really obvious one.
• 13:16
  Michael: You mentioned patents and so on, but legal stuff, and then ongoing costs to stay within regulations and and frameworks and so on, which which you you simply wouldn't have in an ordinary everyday business.
• 13:27
  Michael: In terms of the product itself, one of the thoughts, because I always look at things from a marketing head and a commercial head, it's a very solid product.
• 13:35
  Michael: And if I were to create a product in any space, I would make sure you need to buy a new one every two minutes because otherwise you have a product that is pretty much gonna last.
• 13:46
  Michael: It's the everlasting gobstopper.
• 13:47
  Michael: Why why does anyone ever need another one, right?
• 13:50
  Michael: So you've chosen a product that to all intents and purposes, you buy once and you're done, which makes recurring revenue and lifetime value actually quite difficult.
• 13:57
  Michael: Unless you talk about the NHS or a sports team where they go through them, but generally it's it's quite difficult.
• 14:03
  Michael: How have you modelled that in terms of forecasting and and maybe building out something that does increase the ongoing revenue from that product?
• 14:11
  Michael: Or will it always be just a go buy this thing, it's it's great.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: So we were very adamant alongside that development we did with London Irish, and we were adamant that that the product needed to be resilient and stand up to test, and then part of the medical device status is that you need to test how many cycles it will survive for to make sure that it is fit for purpose, and you know, you have to jump through those hoops to do it in order to gain the medical device status.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: So we really over-engineered it to be really strong, really resilient, and and last a long time, like you say.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: We think ultimately there's enough people out there with dodgy ankles.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's one of the most, you know, everyone knows someone who's got a dodgy ankle, and everyone's got two ankles as well.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: So that doubles your chance of sustaining an ankle injury.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: And we have been contacted by distributors who tell us we should double the price of it as well.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: And we have stuck to our guns and said we want the end user to be able to afford this thing because of the the the value that it can you know bring to people.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so we're hoping, and we're just starting to do this now.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: We are introducing other products to the product line that are complementary, maybe not ground breaking products.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: I have got another idea which I haven't had the capital to bring into fruition, which I think could be cool as well.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: But um the accessory, accessory uh, you know, bands and sword boards and things that basically are compliment uh yes, are complementary to the use of A-Flex, maybe for more strengthening alongside the mobilization and things.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we can be a one-stop shop for foot and ankle rehab, and then also now as part of our uh work building towards the B2C market, so the end consumer, we want A-Flex to be as part of a wider rehab journey.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: So we now have started producing online rehab programs for people who are struggling with various different things, in which reduced ankle range of motion can be a key part of that dysfunction or disability.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so AFLEX can become part of a wider rehab protocol for people.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so, within all of those different avenues, that I think gives us enough around the world, we hope, to um to help lots of people and and create a really good business that helps a lot of the internet.
• 16:39
  Michael: Let's get let's get onto that later because I think that's an interesting topic.
• 16:42
  Michael: I'm interested in uh you're now a physio selling to physios and or to clinicians.
• 16:48
  Michael: And when I got into this industry, I was just amazed at how different they are to normal people will call them.
• 16:54
  Michael: What have you found, like some key lessons or some funny things?
• 16:57
  Michael: Like, what have you found it's like selling to the clinician base versus let's say the consumer?
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think physios are terrible salespeople, even though basically to be a physio, you need to sell the idea of physiotherapy to people.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: So people are already salespeople as soon as you're in a setting, whether that's NHS or private.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I was I remember telling people that very early on in my career that we're basically salespeople.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: You have to convince people that this they need to buy into what you're telling them, basically.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yet when it's product-based, people uh physios in particular are not good at really pushing something onto people that could and should and will genuinely help them.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: So that that's been an interesting thing.
• 17:40
  Michael: I mean, I mean, in terms of you selling to a physio clinic owner, let's say.
• 17:45
  Michael: Um, how is that?
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's uh yeah, I guess it's uh yeah, it's interesting.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: I I I don't know if I've thought about it a ton.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think it uh the imposter syndrome is certainly louder um because you are um I've sold AFlex to some clinicians that I think are the B's knees that I respect massively from a clinical standpoint, and then I'm stood in a room telling them that this is something that they should be introducing into their clinical practice.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that's an interesting dynamic shift because I consume some of these people's um or their content on social media, some of them and value that, and then I'm now sort of try to switch that up a little bit.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: So that's been an interesting eye-opener for sure.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: And standing in a room for an in-service training with 30 physios staring at you, all of whom have their own opinions of what they believe should be what's important when managing foot and ankle conditions.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm stood at the front, this babe baby faced boy stood at the front telling telling people that they should be, you know, can really considering adding A flex into their clinical repertoire toolbox because of the importance of restoring ankle range of motion after injury.
• 19:12
  Michael: So that raises an interesting point because let's assume, and and as I say, I'm no expert, as everyone knows, um let's assume it's a absolutely credible top-class product, which everyone I know says says it is.
• 19:24
  Michael: Is it strange to you that given you've got all the research, you've got all the data, you've got all the evidence, you've got people who you massively respect in the industry saying, holy crap, this is great.
• 19:35
  Michael: Is it weird to you that you can go into a clinic where you've got 30 physios and you know half of them are just like going, oh, this is rubbish and it doesn't work?
• 19:43
  Michael: Is is uh I don't know if in any other industry, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't know if many other industries you go into a room with a really legit product and half the people go, uh, this is this is rubbish.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think I think I said something to you before we jumped on this call that was like A flex is kind of is reassuringly boring.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's kind of it does one thing really, really well, and it doesn't promise fancy bells and whistles and quantum computing or anything you know can particularly excite exciting other than the fact that it will restore foot and ankle range of motion and mechanics really effectively for most stubborn ankles, which is that is the whole point.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you can some physios have said to my face, I think it's very good.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't get it, I don't um I don't see what it offers particularly.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, will I ever change their mind?
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Do they do they need a inertia in the general mainstream?
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if they hear that every physio they know is now using it, then maybe that would change their mind.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I don't know what what they base their clinical judgment on.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: I present our data, we have an independent clinical trial that has been completed that shows its effectiveness, and we have some of the coolest we used by most of the Premier League, and and you know, we're used by s really some exciting people now.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: Some people sit there with their arms crossed and go, you know, so what?
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: And that that I used to get quite not to the not not to the face, but I used to be a bit kind of like, well, what's wrong with you?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this is what people are saying about it.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: This isn't my words, this is their, you know, but now I just think, well, you'll come round to it if you come round to it.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't, you don't.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I found it more frustrating with the clinicians than, for example, now this B2C strategy.
• 21:38
  Michael: Yeah.
• 21:39
  Michael: Yeah, I I and and I imagine some of those same people who want running around with magnetic electric wands um telling you that they absolutely work.
• 21:49
  Michael: And uh yeah, I always find that quite amusing.
• 21:54
  Michael: Yes.
• 21:55
  Michael: Talking of the the consumer channel, I think I'm interested in your your Pricing flexibility or the pricing strategy, particularly against physios, like how sensitive are physios to price?
• 22:06
  Michael: Um, because I found that they are incredibly sensitive, all clinicians and clinic owners are, which is understandable because of margins.
• 22:13
  Michael: But it has it surprised you uh how sensitive they are to acquiring their own unit in the clinic, I mean.
• 22:18
  Michael: Yes.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, unbelievably so.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's it i I think, like I say, we've tried our hardest to keep it as cost effective as possible.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: And we use AFlex, and I know the clinics that we've sold to give us feedback that they use it 15 times a day before any rehab session involving the lower limb, and it just now will exist in their department forever and keep doing that job for them.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like just over a hundred quid.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I just think, you know, when you actually do the maths on that, that's pretty that's pretty good um and pretty helpful for all of the people that that's gonna be beneficial for.
• 23:00
  Michael: But do you think So I agree I agree with you, and and we have the same problem.
• 23:05
  Michael: Everyone setting into the industry has the same problem.
• 23:06
  Michael: You provide them something and you say it will give X return, they still think it's too expensive.
• 23:12
  Michael: I wonder, given that you own a clinic, do you act exactly the same way when you've got your clinic hat on when someone comes to you and says, We've got this great thing, it's only a hundred pounds, and you go, I'm not spending a bloody hundred pounds.
• 23:23
  Michael: Is this something inbred into physio minds that makes them think like that?
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: That is a good that is a question.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: I do think I am naturally skeptical of loads of stuff.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I'm constantly getting emails trying people trying to sell me stuff.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: So there may be a degree of it where it's just that natural guarding who have their guard up against being sold to.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: But that's the funny thing about sales is a lot of the time the thing that people are selling, it might be very legitimately very helpful for you and your patient populations, but it's sort of, I guess, getting through all of the the other noise and and standing out from the crowd, I suppose.
• 24:03
  Michael: Well then one but hold on, Matt.
• 24:05
  Michael: Once you are there, right?
• 24:06
  Michael: So so someone brings you something, because this is what you're doing, you're going to a clinic, this is a great product, it's cheap as chips, considering how you're going to use it.
• 24:13
  Michael: Someone does the same thing to you, it's that price sensitivity angle of that's just too expensive for me.
• 24:21
  Michael: Even when, you know, I I remember once uh we we sold some CPD, I was involved with various CPD things, and it was like, get all your CPD for a year for£150, and people were like, and in a top class CPD, right?
• 24:31
  Michael: The the Joe Gibson kind of course or whatever.
• 24:33
  Michael: Um and people were like, Oh my god,£150, I'm not spending£150 on 200 hours of CPD, right?
• 24:39
  Michael: And it's obviously maniacal that people are reacting like that.
• 24:43
  Michael: On the other hand, I imagine you are a little bit when you're in clinic.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think there's a there's a there's a degree of that.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I must admit, my my uh willingness to take a chance and stuff now has has definitely uh I'm I I've become much more of a risk taker through my career as I've had to sign off and sign sign away big chunks of my you know life savings to to bring this thing into into the into the world and it almost you're like eh, you know, you you're your IP your IP attorney sends you a massive bill for writing five emails, and you're like, you know, it's only it's only two grand.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, I think that desensitizes you a bit and it's it's means to an end.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I maybe more than some I I I'm willing to take a punt on stuff, but I'm a massive, like pure purist for the power of you know, good strength and conditioning, sensible programming, managing people, I find myself calling it the Goldilocks zone, keeping people in the Goldilocks zone, and I think that that is much more valuable than loads of the gadgets.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I I don't love the gadgets myself.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: But if that gadget can help someone achieve a particular outcome that I believe to be helpful, beneficial, then then I'll take a punt.
• 26:03
  Michael: The risk taking is funny because I I think it's a little bit like when you're a student again and you've got no money, you've got tenor left, you spend four quid on something, and then you're like, oh, it's only another six pounds, let's just throw away, even it leaves a it leaves you with zero.
• 26:16
  Michael: But at this point, who gives?
• 26:18
  Michael: Yes.
• 26:18
  Michael: I'm darn any.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's so true.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's so true.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna shut my office uh office.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: I actually forgot that we have an afternoon clinic in today.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um we are and we're we're good.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: We're good.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, you're you you I think you're right.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think it recalibrates you gradually being uh being a business owner about your appetite for just seeing, you know, I'll go on then.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: Just let's see where it takes us.
• 26:45
  Michael: Yeah, particularly when it's something that is really costly.
• 26:47
  Michael: You know, we won't get into what what you've spent.
• 26:50
  Michael: I I can guess how much, but this isn't like opening up a clinic and spending 50 grand or 100 grand putting it together.
• 26:57
  Michael: This is like monthly bills that are eye watering.
• 27:00
  Michael: And um, I suppose when you're at that stage and you're doing that, you have to have a level of or a certain attitude towards risk, um, more so than an entrepreneur who just does something on the side.
• 27:13
  Michael: But I this is an interesting question, actually, because you did it slightly differently to what the normal success story is.
• 27:19
  Michael: Because people who are most successful are the entrepreneurs that quit their job, have no other income, put their life savings in, live in their car, and then become billionaires.
• 27:30
  Michael: Um, but there is like the intense pressure.
• 27:33
  Michael: And I I I truly believe that when you are in that situation and you literally can't afford to buy food, that that sharpens the mind, sharpens focus, makes you work an awful lot harder.
• 27:42
  Michael: You did still have the clinic supporting the business, right, and putting money into it.
• 27:48
  Michael: Um but I don't imagine it was it was it that makes I did that already when I started the clinic.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: When I started the clinic, I was working in the NHS on a measly little salary, and I had some life savings, and I basically had this vision.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: I met a similar like-minded person that then became my business partner that didn't ultimately work out, but we then sort of talked ourselves into right, let's do this, and we did that, have that massive outlay and spent my you know, emptied my bank account, and then I was using my NHS salary to pay for the rent to keep the lights on in the building.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: And there was a period of like two or three years where I was working full-time NHS, working just evenings and weekends at the clinic, and I built this clinic that I'm still immensely proud of.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: How you know it's still very much very similar to how it started life, really.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: And um, but I sort of built it and my my marketing strategy was build it and they will come.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: That was that was that was about as far as I got into the into the business plan.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then people didn't come through the door, and then that sharpens your mind because you're like, crap, there's more to business than just building something that you think you're really, you know, you're happy with.
• 29:03
  Michael: This is actually a common failing and common topic amongst entrepreneurs, which is they are often product people and they create something, whether it's a mobile app or or it doesn't matter what it is, they create it.
• 29:16
  Michael: Um and I used to work in an incubator, so I hope I know a bit about this, and they go, I've got this incredible product.
• 29:22
  Michael: It is amazing.
• 29:22
  Michael: And you're like, Yeah, it is pretty amazing.
• 29:24
  Michael: So, what's your marketing budget?
• 29:26
  Michael: What what what do you mean?
• 29:27
  Michael: We're gonna put it on the app store.
• 29:28
  Michael: Okay, and amongst the four billion other apps that have gone up today, how are you marketing this?
• 29:33
  Michael: And and I think uh it's such a common failing, and particularly by the way, from going back to clinics, we get a lot of young, young clinic owners who have just, you know, they they see three, four, five hundred patients a month through their clinic that they're working with, and it's all really busy.
• 29:48
  Michael: So you go right, I'm gonna do this myself.
• 29:50
  Michael: I'm gonna put a sign above a door and I'm gonna make myself my millions.
• 29:54
  Michael: And then they come to us about three to six months later saying, So I used to see 500 patients a month.
• 29:59
  Michael: I've got no one, and I understand where they've all gone.
• 30:02
  Michael: And it's like, well, yeah, that that other clinic that you belong to, they they kind of put years of blood, sweat, and tears and a lot of money into that business.
• 30:09
  Michael: It doesn't just happen, you know, like that.
• 30:12
  Michael: And the same goes with product, it's not enough to build a great product.
• 30:15
  Michael: You've got to have that that drive, the ambition, and often the money, not always, but often the money to really push it, particularly in the consumer market.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it it's um and it has been really tough juggling a clinic, which is growing.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm not actively trying to grow my clinic, and I'm a slightly aware as well sometimes that my clinic is competing against other clinics that are probably devoting 100% of their time to growing that clinic, and my clinic is growing despite that, which is kind of cool, but trying to manage a clinic that is growing whilst um trying to launch a product, and it's tricky.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: Do I ditch the clinic and just say, you know what, all eggs into the product, A-Flex basket?
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: But the clinic has provided a comfortable life for for me and my family for a while now, and I you know it's it's a really difficult thing.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I do think if I was still in the NHL, I would have quit my job and I would have just gone all in.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: And A-Flex probably would have been, you know, excel the growth would have been quicker, I think.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: But it's almost blue.
• 31:23
  Michael: Yeah, it comes out which girlfriend you love most.
• 31:26
  Michael: Um the one where cooks your dinner and everything's pretty chilled, or the one that's like super hot and exciting, and you know, yeah.
• 31:32
  Michael: But I think there's actually a real clinical benefit actually to um to being clinical, still having your own clinic um and pr pr producing products in in the space.
• 31:45
  Michael: Um, I think it gives you a lot more credibility in front of people.
• 31:48
  Michael: I think it still keeps you in touch with what's going on.
• 31:50
  Michael: So I I know a lot of clinic owners actually who are incredibly successful in other areas, their clinic is is making them a teeny bit of money, sometimes even loss making, but they still do it because of those reasons.
• 32:03
  Michael: So I think it is important.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: No, I can I can never see myself going non-clinical, I don't think.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and especially in the B2C market, again, the credibility that comes from people.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I I had a husband and wife come in today in clinic who had seen our AFlex marketing strategy, and they we put out lots of education and lots of and they found that and then actually contacted me through that to say, oh yeah this guy seems like he knows what's talking about, and they came seeking my opinion from I don't know if they came from over an hour away to come and see me today, which was very cool.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: That that is an interesting side effect of all of this as well.
• 32:44
  Michael: So going forwards and and talking of the consumer model and and growth, because the real growth is gonna be B2C, right?
• 32:50
  Michael: Um, I'm interested, are you going to have to raise to really go after the consumer market, or are you going to go the distributor route where you're just not going to go direct?
• 33:00
  Michael: It's all going to be through whatever distributor it might be.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's really difficult to know for sure.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think ultimately we're going to raise.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: We we actually looked at that very early on, um, and we had um a couple of cool offers from people who were willing to invest in us, but the big catch is you're gonna quit your job and you're not gonna you're not gonna do you know do this as a side project.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: You are gonna be 100% uh you know I'm not giving you my hard-earned cash unless you are 100% devoted to this.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: And my brother's got a very good job um as an engineer.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: Again, my clinic is my baby, and I sacrificed a lot to build that up from the ground.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really difficult to make that decision.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: So we decided that between the two of us, we could just about put a weekly, hourly commitment to this that would be the equivalent the equivalent of one full-time worker.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: And we think people launch businesses in the time as one full-time worker.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: So we hoped that that might be that might be enough.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: And it's working and organically we're getting somewhere, which is cool.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: You're right, to scale.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: I would feel very confident now about going to an investor with a blueprint that is working and just saying, look, we just need capital to scale that to a much bigger place.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: My clinic is getting self self-supported as well.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: I went to New Zealand a few weeks ago for three bit weeks and the clinic ran without me being there.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that was the first time I'd ever kind of left a clinic behind and had good, reliable clinicians running things and not feeling nervous about that process.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's a big milestone for me as well.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: And when it gets to a point where I can give more and more work to those guys and feel really happy with that, then I think that's when I probably now start to look at scaling AFlex to a different level to what it's doing now at speed, at scale.
• 34:54
  Michael: You're right for investment now, you've got the traction, right?
• 34:57
  Michael: You do it too early, you're raising a far too sort of high, you're giving far too much of the business away.
• 35:03
  Michael: You've got the traction, you've got a lot going for you.
• 35:06
  Michael: So I think you are ripe for investment.
• 35:08
  Michael: The question, I suppose, is you probably uh and from just from my perspective, from a marketing and commercial perspective, you're gonna have to raise half a mil as first round to to really get the product to market, I think.
• 35:19
  Michael: But you're gonna be giving a considerable amount of the business away.
• 35:22
  Michael: Are you prepared to do that?
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh yeah, I think so.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: If you if uh if I've got the right investor on board, I think so.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think it has to be the right investor and they have to be on board with what AFlex is really trying to do, which is become a you know, an essential tool in the toolbox of clinicians in rehab, and that can be around the world, and there's enough people out there to to why so so I and and there are investors out there, I think you can find one that that would work.
• 35:52
  Michael: Why not crowdfund it?
• 35:53
  Michael: Use Cedars or something and do it within the physio market, give everyone a piece, then they am I just building your market strategy?
• 36:01
  Michael: Go Cedars, crowdfund it, give a ton of clinics and physios a piece of it, they then use it more, which gets more traction in the market because they're all using it because they're a part owner of the business, and then use that money to then fund the growth.
• 36:16
  Michael: You don't have one individual who's as long as hell saying, Can you stick a glowy light on it because it'll sell God?
• 36:22
  Michael: A ton of people who believe because they are ethical clinicians because they have invested.
• 36:26
  Michael: Have you thought about doing that, Ruth?
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yes, crowd crowdfunding was another thing we looked at right at the start, and it's uh maybe we flip we flip-flopped a little bit as well without the experience of knowing what what the right thing to do is.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know if there's always is a correct, one obvious route to go down.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: Crowd crowdfunding was one of the first things we looked at as well.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's a challenge when you have a product that ultimately, if you know what problem it solves, you can see the critical value of that.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: And it's but what we've thought with because we looked at quick Kickstarter in quite a lot of detail, but we've we just got this feeling that yeah, we got this feeling that firstly people aren't searching for this.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: If you look at people searching Google searches around something like this, it's not people aren't searching for products or or devices that help improve ankle mobility.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's just not, there's not a volume of search on that.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not a people aren't problem aware.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: So this is where we've tried to do more education-based marketing to the B2C, which is they educate them about a problem that they are problem-aware about, and then educate them about the role that ankle range of motion might have in that, and then that seems to be working for us at the moment.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:40
  Michael: Yeah.
• 37:41
  Michael: No, it's an interesting problem because uh I just came in.
• 37:44
  Michael: Actually, do you know what?
• 37:44
  Michael: I've just thought of another idea.
• 37:46
  Michael: There's a lot of clinic owners who who are selling their businesses right now for a reasonable amount of money, and some very high-end, like really great clinic owners who are now bored as hell and probably wouldn't mind a few hundred grand into a product.
• 38:02
  Michael: Have you thought of that target group?
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: Not actually, not directly, no, but that would be that that I'm sure you I don't know if you've got anyone in mind, but I might have to grab you after the call because um that is the kind of clinician that you want.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: Someone who understands the clinical problem you're trying to solve and hopefully shares that same level of um kind of passion for the the health part of the business, if that makes sense.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that we're trying to solve problems for real people.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: And and what's nice for my brother, more than me, perhaps because I do this as bread and butter day to day, James will send me a screenshot of a review that we've received, or uh, you know, someone has sent an email in just to say, Oh my gosh, this has literally changed my life, and thank you so much.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: As part of the clinic, you get that feedback quite a lot, but for him, who he's an engineer on a car, he doesn't um he doesn't uh get that same like immediate feedback that you're doing you're doing good in the world, and that that is actually the the big thing is it's very cool to be pushing business that is you know the bigger the business gets, the more people we're helping.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's the big thing.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's what we're passionate about.
• 39:17
  Michael: Well, I will introduce you, I think, to a few clinicamists I can have a thing.
• 39:20
  Michael: This is an online marketing lesson that's turned into a marketing podcast.
• 39:24
  Michael: Have you thought about what about the big groups, whether it's the spires or whether it's the pure physios?
• 39:29
  Michael: Like I imagine you yeah, talking to someone like Finn from pure great guy would I imagine see the value in it.
• 39:37
  Michael: Why don't people have it in every single clinic across their billions of patients?
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is still one of the conundrums that we're still trying to solve.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: So we I don't know if I can or should name drop, but we have sold some devices into um big chains of physio um, and then you know, we check in, how's it going?
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: They go, amazing.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: We've had some amazing clinical responses from using it with patients.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: We're really fond of it.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: I say, but you've only bought three of us and you've got 18 clinics.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: Why why is that what why are you not installing them into the and it just it's almost as though it's just because you're having clinical success in one place doesn't necessarily mean that then as a clinician you have the power to say to the powers that be we just should buy 20 of the you know that that that's an interesting thing that we found and it doesn't guarantee you think, wow, we've signed this person, they've got one now, they're gonna now that's gonna accelerate around all these clinics around London, and then you know you you don't seem to to to hear from them again.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's an interesting one.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas some clinics they then buy, they try, they try one, they get on really well with it, they give good feedback, and then they go and buy one for every clinic, and that's obviously a good that's a good outcome.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um but that's where we're still the inconsistencies between clinics who love it, but then it doesn't seem to go anywhere.
• 41:06
  Michael: Clinics who love it and then roll it out on their on their entire um So I'm being I'm being serious.
• 41:18
  Michael: This is a genuinely serious question.
• 41:20
  Michael: Do you think it would sell better if it did glow and throb red?
• 41:26
  Michael: Genuinely serious question.
• 41:28
  Michael: If it did have an internal just throbbing light when you started using it, um and if it had a bit more sort of rock tapey type style branding to it, do you think it would sell more?
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: It'd catch the eyeball, wouldn't it?
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's that's what it takes to to um get that inertia, that momentum.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, our device is based purely around clinical feedback as we developed it.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the only way I know how to build some, you know, that's my only experience.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: I've only done it once, and we did it through conversations with clinicians that I massively respect who were using it with athletes with the injuries that benefit from it day after day.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: And we just made it beautifully uh simple, and maybe maybe you're right.
• 42:16
  Michael: Here's what I'm getting at.
• 42:17
  Michael: So you remember when you were a kid, you had those trainers, and every time you stood on something, they started flashing and glowing, right?
• 42:23
  Michael: And and they were really cool, and and people loved them.
• 42:26
  Michael: And what I'm getting at here is I think in the and I've noticed this a lot, in this industry, the more flash something is, the more often that almost trumps the clinical efficacy of it.
• 42:42
  Michael: I don't want to be too go too far.
• 42:44
  Michael: Like this isn't well, I wanna I want to be careful here because there's incredible physias out there and so on.
• 42:50
  Michael: But I see a lot of nonsense being sold in the industry based on very little credible evidence or efficacy or even any kind of backing from from from you know the big guns, but it's sold based on it's a really cool thing to have.
• 43:10
  Michael: I it's often you often see, uh and I I don't want to name any brands here, but I I've seen a few brands that are absolutely terrific that that create incredible products, but they and I'm not saying you're not getting anywhere, but they don't get as far as they could do if it just lit up.
• 43:26
  Michael: Uh I'm not even joking.
• 43:28
  Michael: Um, and I wonder if that's something you've noticed.
• 43:31
  Michael: Uh if if that's something you if you feel the same way.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe, yeah.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think what would be cool is if you could implement a pressure sensor or something into the see where your weight is being distributed as you use the device and that kind of stuff would be quite a cool little addition.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: But it's um I really do get your point.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think as well, without being too cynical, there is a um there's a desire or an attraction from some Clinic clinics to work or acquire equipment that that they can sell to the patient as being this amazing thing.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you put it on the website, we offer this thing, and the patient goes, Wow, what is that thing?
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: Then and then it's like, oh well, it's an amazing thing.
• 44:18
  Michael: I think that's important, and I think that's absolutely fair.
• 44:21
  Michael: If I were a clinic owner, I've got the choice between an old Chattanooga 60s-looking shockwave and a Venn, which are they're the same bloody thing, let's be honest, right?
• 44:31
  Michael: I'm gonna choose a Ven one because it's cool looking.
• 44:34
  Michael: I forget about customer service and anything else.
• 44:36
  Michael: It's cool looking, and patients love cool looking stuff, right?
• 44:39
  Michael: That that's that's obvious.
• 44:41
  Michael: And and so I don't have any problem there.
• 44:44
  Michael: I almost, and I think that's important for you to think about or anyone who's creating a product, it's gotta make the patient go, wow, this is this is pretty, you know, rock tape is the prime example.
• 44:53
  Michael: How did they make all their money?
• 44:54
  Michael: Well, let's put it on every footballer we can find, cover him in it, and then say sports performance, and and and you know, off you go.
• 45:02
  Michael: I think they also did loads around the CrossFit at the time as well, right?
• 45:05
  Michael: It was just how do we look super, super cool.
• 45:07
  Michael: Best tape for pull-ups, by the way.
• 45:09
  Michael: It's awesome for that.
• 45:10
  Michael: But I think it it's interesting because if you did, it's interesting where you said, where I said we could make it flash, and immediately your head goes to what could we add to make it better, where this function has function, right?
• 45:22
  Michael: So it's pressure sensor and so on.
• 45:24
  Michael: Whereas I'm thinking, just stick a glowing light in it, right?
• 45:28
  Michael: That makes no difference whatsoever.
• 45:29
  Michael: And it's good, you know, credit to you that you are immediately thinking, how do we make this product better?
• 45:35
  Michael: rather than how do we make it more flashy so it sells more?
• 45:37
  Michael: It's my marketing brain, yeah.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, uh, and you've you're you're you're onto something, I think.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's not like I say, it does one thing incredibly well.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the the buy-in from patients comes when they've got a stiff, sore ankle post-fracture or post-sprain, and then you show them their knee to wall, and you show them the difference between their left and their right, and then you use A flex for 30 seconds, and then you retest it, and they go, My gosh, that's like five centimetres closer than it was before.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_01: That that's like the light bulb moment.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_01: That is that's maybe more what we need to nurture within our marketing that that emotive kind of reaction response from patients, clinicians, the it make people want to put their foot in it and and have a go.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why we sell so many at Expos.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: When we go to Therapy Expo and we stand on our stand and we say, Come come to put your foot in this, and we do your before, we got our uh inclinometer on our phone, and we do before and after, and we use it for 30 seconds and then retest, and we have our ankle mobility leaderboard, and we invite people to come and have a go.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: We sell loans because you just see exactly what it does, and you instantly go, Oh wow, I've just gained seven degrees, or you know, our best ever did it was 23 degrees on the first use, which is pretty pretty cool.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where that's the equivalent of those shoes that light up, you know, but you have to have had a gun on it in order to receive that kind of that that trigger and that event that triggers the brain to to think, well, that's cool.
• 47:20
  Michael: Yeah.
• 47:21
  Michael: So you are obviously really proud of this, right?
• 47:25
  Michael: You can tell your face lights up, you're really proud.
• 47:27
  Michael: What makes you prouder?
• 47:29
  Michael: The product and what it does, or you seeing a patient and you making the change to someone's life?
• 47:35
  Michael: What's what gives you more pride?
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: That is a really interesting question.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: I love that feeling of helping someone who's never been helped before.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: They've seen 15 clinicians, no one's been able to help them, and you get that breakthrough, and you that is the one of the key reasons that you become a physio.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's just such a rewarding feeling.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think, in terms of legacy, maybe the idea.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've now been to half the Premier League club training grounds and St.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_01: George's Park for England, you know, England.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I go and sit in these departments, and it's taken me to places.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm an Arsenal fan, and I've been to Arsenal training ground and met the team, and it's just like a very surreal, like you gotta when I'm in when I'm waiting to be taken from reception, I'm kind of like, what the heck is going on here?
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that is that feels like a big deal.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know what I mean?
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: That feels like something that um is should be really celebrated, but it's a different type of it's more it's more selfish.
• 48:41
  Michael: It's a more selfish this is super interesting.
• 48:44
  Michael: So, first of all, I don't know if you know this.
• 48:45
  Michael: Um, I used to live in the flats in the old highbury.
• 48:48
  unknown: Right.
• 48:49
  Michael: Yeah, I used to I was in Northstand and I would look down on the old pitch every day and see the old center circle and um yeah, we used to stop Spurs fans from fans from pissing on the gates and stuff.
• 49:00
  Michael: Anyway, what you just said is really interesting because I wonder how much of this is about reputation and credibility as a clinician, because it seems like that's what you were touching on.
• 49:13
  Michael: You love helping someone, and you know, you someone other people have seen them and they they they haven't got anywhere, but then you moved it into almost that reputational credibility angle, which is oh my god, I've got I'm in Premier League clubs, people are listening to me, people are treating me like a force.
• 49:32
  Michael: You touched on it earlier where you had high-end people, top people in the industry who you fangirled over, and now you're the one that's selling them a product.
• 49:40
  Michael: And I hear a lot from from physios of all ages, they just don't feel like they get the reputation they deserve for the for the great things they do.
• 49:48
  Michael: Do you think part of this is that is that finally people are recognizing you for doing something really cool?
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe maybe, yeah, maybe.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's the um I think it's cool being recognized by peers, whereas what I do at the clinic, you don't you get recognition from the patients and they talk about you and then you know tell their friends and family about you, and that's that's really cool.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but there's something very cool about the respect of your peers.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_01: And the thing that still genuinely makes me so happy is when someone says to me, My goodness, I wish I had thought of that.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because that is is what I spent my entire teenage and early adult life saying about simple things like, Oh my gosh, that's so simple.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: I wish I'd thought of that.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_01: And now people say that to me, and there's something quite cool about and and I I have always tried to think of stuff as well.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_01: This one fell into my lap because of my own misfortune, but it was like I was one of those people thinking, what can I do to come up with an idea?
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe some of it is about leaving a legacy, I guess, which running a clinic in your little community, but it's cool.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_01: We're we're literally used in in Australia, you know, and and that's something that never in a million years would have happened just in my little clinic in uh so I will say I this is very similar to what I hear from teachers.
• 51:15
  Michael: Oh, I don't really do anything that's all that valuable.
• 51:17
  Michael: I teach some kids.
• 51:19
  Michael: Every one of us listening to this podcast, and you and I, we remember a teacher that had an impact on our lives, right?
• 51:25
  Michael: There's always someone, and it's amazing the impact that you can have on people's lives, even when you don't realize it.
• 51:31
  Michael: I think sometimes clinicians underplay or don't really understand the difference that they genuinely make to people's lives, and you don't see it, right?
• 51:41
  Michael: You don't see me who was incapable of playing with the kids suddenly being able to, you know, take them to the park again, or whatever the case may be.
• 51:49
  Michael: And and so I I think that's sometimes under-appreciated by clinicians because some of them, many of them do absolutely incredible work, they just don't see the results quite so much.
• 51:59
  Michael: Whereas when you've got a product like yours, you see the results to something in the sales of that product and in the recognition of people that you respect.
• 52:08
  Michael: The patient just goes home and suddenly they can do things they couldn't do before, they're able to go back to work and feed the families or whatever the case may be.
• 52:15
  Michael: So I do think it's important to remember that.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a good point.
• 52:20
  Michael: I won't know your top fanboy moment.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the Arsenal one was very cool because I shook the hands of some of the players and I, you know, got a tour around the training ground, and I it was just quite a surreal having a conversation with a guy that I've watched on television, you know, week in, week out, it's just like one of those moments.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's that's got to be it.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: Just cool going backstage at the roll ballet, um, you know, just lots of cool stuff.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_01: And people always give you a tour, it really cracks me up.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you go to you know on business, but they then go like, let me show you around the training ground, and let me uh and uh and you know that's it's like a little perk.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel a bit bad because my brother is never at these things, so he I'm like he's doing all the back-end stuff, making things work and and uh you know, doing this doing the engineering that makes things beautiful and and doing all the technical stuff, and then I'm just like going and meeting, you know, the that's funny.
• 53:18
  Michael: You know what?
• 53:19
  Michael: I'd have exactly the same thing.
• 53:20
  Michael: Hannah's the one that does all the actual grind and work and all the organization other than chatting and fucking around online and doing podcasts.
• 53:28
  Michael: Um I think every company needs that, right?
• 53:30
  Michael: Every company needs that.
• 53:32
  Michael: All right, push comes to shove.
• 53:34
  Michael: I know the answer.
• 53:34
  Michael: Push comes to shove.
• 53:36
  Michael: You've got to get rid of one of your children tomorrow.
• 53:38
  Michael: Which one is it?
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_01: The clinic for sure.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean I hope we don't ever have to make that decision.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's a time coming in the near future where the clinic, like I say, runs without me, uh, and then I can park that a bit.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I think A Flex has got potential to go and do some global stuff.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_01: And um may like I say, maybe if the clinic shut tomorrow and I only had A Flex, the growth of it would probably accelerate because you've got that kind of squeaky, squeaky bum time, right?
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's like this has to work, which lights fire.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_01: And that is probably why it's taken a few years to get to the stage for we're at, because I've been juggling, my brother's been juggling a job as well.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_01: So it's you know, it's uh it's been tough, hardcraft, but good, good stuff, all good stuff.
• 54:26
  Michael: Yeah.
• 54:27
  Michael: Um, I think at some point, you know, you you have to focus and you have to push into the one business idea.
• 54:32
  Michael: I think it's very difficult to do multiple things in slightly, I know they're related, but they're still very different.
• 54:38
  Michael: My last bit of advice, or my only bit of advice really to you is go become Dyson, right?
• 54:43
  Michael: You build your vacuum cleaner, build your hair dryer, build your dehumidifier, your fan.
• 54:49
  Michael: You basically need the ankle flex pro, the elbow pro, the knee pro, the nose pro, everything.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_01: Quite a few people, interesting clinic clinicians that I some mates that I've got in the industry have said, like, have you thought about doing this for the whatever joint?
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_01: And the the answer is yes.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_01: But again, this is where an investor would probably be helpful because in theory you could go and expand the range and um then you then you're looking good.
• 55:15
  Michael: Also, an Ankle Flex Pro measurement device that would actually do the measuring as well, which you can then build into an app and then loads of ideas.
• 55:24
  Michael: Right.
• 55:25
  Michael: Thank you so much for your time.
• 55:26
  Michael: If there's anyone listening with tons of money, um definitely get in touch.
• 55:31
  Michael: He's looking for investments.
• 55:32
  Michael: In fact, go and have a chat with Ben.
• 55:34
  Michael: Not that he's got much money left, he's moaning about it, but have a chat with Ben.
• 55:37
  Michael: He's a massive Arsenal fan.
• 55:39
  Michael: And he's a huge arsenal fan, and I'm sure he will uh give you some advice about go to market and investment strategies, because that's his his geek.
• 55:48
  Michael: Anyone has money, give it to Matt.
• 55:49
  Michael: Anyone wants to buy an Ankle Flex Pro, go buy one, uh feed him because he's without it, he's got no food and he's got still work in this bloody clinic.
• 55:58
  Michael: Um and if you're a HMDG customer, I think we got a a deal going which we'll we'll um let you know about.
• 56:04
  Michael: Thank you so much, Matt.
• 56:05
  Michael: It's been a pleasure, really fun chatting.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, likewise, thank you so much for having me on.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_01: I really enjoyed it.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's good good fun.
• 56:11
  Michael: Amazing.
• 56:11
  Michael: Cheers, Matt.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_01: Cheers.