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What is The Secret To Happiness?: with UCLA Professor Cassie Mogilner Holmes · QUESTION EVERYTHING

0:04
Speaker 1: Big things happen when you're pretty, pretty bold, pretty clever,
0:08
Speaker 1: pretty strong. I'm Danielle Robe and each week my guests
0:12
Speaker 1: and I have conversations.
0:13
Speaker 2: That put a new spin on pretty. This is pretty smart.
0:19
Speaker 1: If you ask people what they want out of life,
0:22
Speaker 1: many will say I just want to be happy. Or
0:25
Speaker 1: if you ask parents what they want for their kids,
0:28
Speaker 1: I most often hear them say I really just want
0:31
Speaker 1: them to be happy. But what does that mean? I
0:37
Speaker 1: think about happiness a lot. Is it a journey, a destination,
0:41
Speaker 1: a moving target? Is anyone ever really happy in our
0:46
Speaker 1: modern lives, no matter who you are, or what you do,
0:48
Speaker 1: or who you love. The top of one mountain is
0:51
Speaker 1: the bottom of the next. I reserve the right to
0:54
Speaker 1: change my mind, But so far in my thirty one years,
0:56
Speaker 1: this is what I've decided about happiness.
1:00
Speaker 2: Three things.
1:00
Speaker 1: The first is maybe it's more about infusing joy than
1:04
Speaker 1: trying to be perpetually happy. I think joy happens to
1:08
Speaker 1: us when we allow ourselves to recognize how good things
1:12
Speaker 1: can really be or how good things are, But that's
1:16
Speaker 1: a topic for another day.
1:18
Speaker 2: Two.
1:19
Speaker 1: If you think there's something you need in order to
1:21
Speaker 1: be happy, then that feeling is probably never going to come.
1:25
Speaker 1: Happiness is not what happens when everything goes the way
1:28
Speaker 1: you think it should. Happiness is what happens when you
1:31
Speaker 1: decide to be happy. I know that sounds cliche, but
1:35
Speaker 1: I've really found that to be true in my life.
1:38
Speaker 1: And three, happiness comes from being aligned with love and purpose.
1:43
Speaker 1: There are two existential questions, who am I?
1:47
Speaker 2: And why am I here?
1:49
Speaker 1: The search for happiness seems ubiquitous in our culture, and
1:53
Speaker 1: yet there's so many forces working against us on our quest.
1:56
Speaker 1: According to Gallup, emotions like anger, stress, worry, and sadness
2:01
Speaker 1: reached record highs globally in twenty twenty one. So I
2:05
Speaker 1: wanted to talk to an expert, an expert on happiness.
2:09
Speaker 1: My guest today is Cassie Mogliner Holmes. She's an award
2:13
Speaker 1: winning professor at UCLA's Anderson School of Management. She's also
2:17
Speaker 1: the author of the new book Happier Hour, in which
2:19
Speaker 1: she lays out the case for our most precious resource.
2:22
Speaker 1: She says, if we boil it down, happiness is not
2:25
Speaker 1: about money, but at the very core of it, happiness
2:30
Speaker 1: is about time. So I had so much fun preparing
2:35
Speaker 1: for this interview. Yan I got a pdf version of
2:39
Speaker 1: your book, which I felt very grateful for. And you
2:43
Speaker 1: tell this story about how you had a revelation on
2:45
Speaker 1: a train that changed your whole life.
2:47
Speaker 2: Do you mind telling that again?
2:49
Speaker 3: Earlier in my career, when I was an assistant professor
2:52
Speaker 3: at Wharton, I had just had my baby. It was
2:57
Speaker 3: four months old, and I agreed to give a talk,
3:00
Speaker 3: and so I had woken up early that morning to
3:04
Speaker 3: head up to New York, even before I sorted to
3:07
Speaker 3: give you know, those morning cuddles to my baby. And
3:10
Speaker 3: I was between my presentation and then back to back
3:13
Speaker 3: meetings and then at networking dinner afterwards, and I was
3:19
Speaker 3: rushing to make the last train home that would get
3:22
Speaker 3: me back to my baby and my husband, and I
3:27
Speaker 3: was exhausted. And I remember it so vividly because I
3:31
Speaker 3: was on the train that night, and I was like,
3:33
Speaker 3: nobody else was on the train because it was so
3:35
Speaker 3: darn late, and I was looking out the window and
3:39
Speaker 3: as the houses and the trees were whizzing by in
3:43
Speaker 3: the darkness, I was realizing just how quickly my life
3:48
Speaker 3: and time was passing. And I was like, I don't
3:51
Speaker 3: know if I can keep up between my career trying
3:55
Speaker 3: to be a good parent, trying to be a good partner,
3:58
Speaker 3: trying to be a good friend, all the chores that
4:00
Speaker 3: were waiting for me at home. I was like, I
4:04
Speaker 3: can't do it. And this is what I've come to
4:07
Speaker 3: start studying is actually time poverty, this feeling of having
4:11
Speaker 3: too much to do and not enough time to do it.
4:14
Speaker 3: And a lot of people feel this way. I mean,
4:17
Speaker 3: I conducted a national pull that showed that nearly half
4:20
Speaker 3: of Americans feel time poor, and in that moment, I
4:26
Speaker 3: was like, the singular solution to my time poverty would be,
4:30
Speaker 3: I thought, was to quit my job. If only I
4:34
Speaker 3: could quit my job and move to a sunny, slow
4:38
Speaker 3: paced silence somewhere, then I'm like, surely I will be happier,
4:41
Speaker 3: because this is just too much. I'm a social psychologist,
4:44
Speaker 3: so I'm a researcher, and typically, as in always, i
4:49
Speaker 3: answer a sort of questions that I'm personally grappling with data,
4:53
Speaker 3: and so I'm like, all right, before I go in,
4:55
Speaker 3: I walk into my chairman's office and be like, you
4:58
Speaker 3: know what, I'm giving up this dreamed job because it's
5:02
Speaker 3: too much. I'm going to test would if I had
5:06
Speaker 3: a whole bunch more time would I be happier? And
5:09
Speaker 3: so I took that question, put it to data with
5:12
Speaker 3: Hal Hirschfield and were Associal Reef, two of my favorite collaborators,
5:16
Speaker 3: to look at what is the relationship between the amount
5:19
Speaker 3: of discretionary time people have and their happiness. And we
5:23
Speaker 3: analyze data from the American Time Youth Survey, so it's
5:27
Speaker 3: like tens of thousands of working and non working Americans
5:30
Speaker 3: that captures a day in their life. We calculated for
5:33
Speaker 3: each individual how much time they spent on discretionary activities,
5:37
Speaker 3: so time they spent relaxing, so like doing nothing, watching TV,
5:42
Speaker 3: sort of an active leisure, so playing sports, going out
5:46
Speaker 3: to watch sports for instance, and socializing with friends and family.
5:50
Speaker 3: And what we found was really surprising. So the pattern
5:54
Speaker 3: of results showed that there was a relationship, but it
5:57
Speaker 3: wasn't that if I had a lot more time, I
6:01
Speaker 3: would be happier. It was actually an inverted U shape.
6:04
Speaker 3: So people with too little time they were unhappy. They
6:08
Speaker 3: were like me in that moment, super stressed, which I'm
6:11
Speaker 3: sure you can absolutely really do. And from that data,
6:15
Speaker 3: it suggests that with less than about two hours of
6:18
Speaker 3: discretionary time in your day, you are less happy. But
6:22
Speaker 3: on the other side was that with more than approximately
6:26
Speaker 3: five hours of discretionary time in your day, folks were
6:29
Speaker 3: also unhappy. So that suggests that, in fact, it's not
6:34
Speaker 3: that having a whole bunch more time me, you know,
6:37
Speaker 3: living my life, relaxing on the beach, would make me happier.
6:41
Speaker 3: And so I didn't quit, and instead I decided to
6:47
Speaker 3: continue studying this question of how should we be investing
6:50
Speaker 3: our time for greater happiness? That was a lot answer.
6:54
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, no, I'm glad we're going to dig deeper
6:57
Speaker 1: into that, but it's so so I've been obsessed with
7:00
Speaker 1: time since I was a kid. My friends and my
7:03
Speaker 1: family would sort of make fun of me because, like
7:07
Speaker 1: my dad would say to me, like, you don't work,
7:09
Speaker 1: Like when I was twelve, he was like, your time
7:11
Speaker 1: is worth nothing, you don't work, you don't make money,
7:14
Speaker 1: like I don't know why you covet your time like
7:17
Speaker 1: it's gold. And I just always have been that way,
7:21
Speaker 1: and as I've gotten.
7:21
Speaker 2: Older, I actually really like that about myself. But to
7:25
Speaker 2: your point, in college.
7:27
Speaker 1: I had too much time at some points, and my
7:32
Speaker 1: college roommate had this funny saying from Shakespeare that idle
7:35
Speaker 1: hands are the devil's playthings. It is very true, so
7:38
Speaker 1: that you shape you're talking about there's a sweet spot,
7:42
Speaker 1: and you had your research shows how we should be
7:45
Speaker 1: investing our time, which I'm so interested in. So in
7:50
Speaker 1: your book Happier Hour, you say that it's not about
7:53
Speaker 1: being time rich, but it's rather about making the time
7:58
Speaker 1: that you have rich. So how can we personally make
8:02
Speaker 1: our time more meaningful?
8:04
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's really about spending your time on activities
8:09
Speaker 3: that bring you joy and being fully engaged when you're
8:13
Speaker 3: doing those activities, and to identify for yourself what are
8:18
Speaker 3: those activities that bring you joy? You can reflect back
8:22
Speaker 3: not this general notion of what do I like to do,
8:25
Speaker 3: but think back over your last two weeks and ask yourself,
8:30
Speaker 3: what were the moments where I felt happiest, that I
8:34
Speaker 3: felt most joyful? And that will surface those activities that
8:39
Speaker 3: are truly worthwhile and activities that you should be carving
8:45
Speaker 3: out time for and prioritizing amongst our really busy schedule.
8:51
Speaker 1: Fantastic And so the question to ask ourselves is how
8:55
Speaker 1: much joy is this bringing me? Yes?
8:58
Speaker 3: And that will allow you to identify what are those
9:02
Speaker 3: ways of spending that you should prioritize going forward so
9:07
Speaker 3: that it isn't just the sort of reaction of saying
9:12
Speaker 3: yes to incoming a request you know they're never ending
9:15
Speaker 3: or sort of losing time where we like might sort
9:19
Speaker 3: of mindlessly, you know, pick up your phone and be like, oh,
9:22
Speaker 3: I'll just sort of check real quick that you know,
9:24
Speaker 3: those minutes turn into hours, but thinking about okay, what
9:29
Speaker 3: is what is you know, like our time is press.
9:32
Speaker 1: Mindfulness, right, it's being it's recognizing our thoughts and our
9:37
Speaker 1: actions more so, Yes, that was a big thing that
9:40
Speaker 1: I garnered from your book.
9:42
Speaker 3: Awesome, And it is about being mindful, so intentional in
9:47
Speaker 3: how you spend your time in terms of activities, but
9:50
Speaker 3: also really intentional and mindful while you're spending that time.
9:55
Speaker 3: So if you know you do prioritize an activity that
10:00
Speaker 3: you know brings you joy and you're actually showing up for, say,
10:04
Speaker 3: you know, dinner with your friend, making sure that you're
10:09
Speaker 3: fully showing up, right, You're not cycling through your head
10:12
Speaker 3: of like oh what's coming next, and like oh, like
10:15
Speaker 3: what else is happening that to make the most of
10:18
Speaker 3: that time, You're fully there such that when you leave
10:23
Speaker 3: that dinner with your friend, it gave you as much
10:26
Speaker 3: joy as it possibly could, and then you know, that's
10:31
Speaker 3: that is how you make your time feel rich. And
10:36
Speaker 3: even if it's you know, an hour that you're spending
10:39
Speaker 3: with your friend, that connection sort of carries over into
10:42
Speaker 3: your overarching relationship with that person and therefore your overarching happiness.
10:48
Speaker 2: So I want to talk.
10:49
Speaker 1: To you about strengthening connections and strengthening relationships because so
10:55
Speaker 1: much of our happiness is defined by the relationships in
10:58
Speaker 1: our lives, the different ones as family, as friendship, romantic relationships,
11:04
Speaker 1: and there is a difference in happiness between these surface
11:09
Speaker 1: relationships and these deeper connections. What does the research suggest.
11:14
Speaker 3: Yes, it's true. Social connection just at like fundamentally is
11:21
Speaker 3: the most important and basic psychological need that we have
11:27
Speaker 3: the sense of belonging, so of knowing and being known
11:33
Speaker 3: by someone, and as like that can come in as
11:37
Speaker 3: you said, from romantic relationships, from friendships, from family members,
11:41
Speaker 3: but it is a true sense of friendship and belonging.
11:46
Speaker 3: And actually the exercise that I just how you you know,
11:50
Speaker 3: like sort of mentioned of reflecting back on sources of joy.
11:55
Speaker 3: You can even reflect back on times that you're spending
11:58
Speaker 3: with people and think about like, oh, what features of
12:03
Speaker 3: those felt the most joyful? And it is that sort
12:06
Speaker 3: of deep connection, so that can come through conversation and
12:10
Speaker 3: I have my students. So there's this relationship Closeness Induction
12:15
Speaker 3: task which takes about fifteen minutes. It's basically a series
12:18
Speaker 3: of questions and it starts with like the stuff that
12:23
Speaker 3: we typically talk about, like when you meet someone, it's
12:26
Speaker 3: like what's your name? You know, like what do you
12:28
Speaker 3: do for a living? You know, what are your hobbies?
12:31
Speaker 3: You know, when did you move to la or you
12:34
Speaker 3: know whatever it's but those those don't make you feel connection.
12:38
Speaker 3: That's just sort of laying the groundwork. But then it
12:40
Speaker 3: goes into the next layer of questions that are like, oh,
12:44
Speaker 3: like how do you like to spend your time? And
12:47
Speaker 3: those are things that are a little bit more revealing.
12:49
Speaker 3: But it's actually the last set of questions that sort
12:53
Speaker 3: of increases that sense of connection. And it's really about
12:57
Speaker 3: sharing experience and vulnerability and a sort of disclosing so
13:03
Speaker 3: that he increase that sort of knowing. So it's like,
13:05
Speaker 3: you know, what is your greatest source of pride? What
13:08
Speaker 3: is something that you're really scared of? What is your
13:11
Speaker 3: happiest childhood memory. Those questions really increase feeling known and
13:18
Speaker 3: knowing the other. So it's actually it's sort of this
13:22
Speaker 3: increasing and reciprocal self disclosure. So it's not just me
13:27
Speaker 3: telling you all about my life. It's like, I want
13:29
Speaker 3: to know about you too, What was your favorite you know,
13:32
Speaker 3: childhood memory.
13:34
Speaker 1: So I've actually been working on that because I love
13:38
Speaker 1: hearing other people's stories.
13:39
Speaker 2: And this is different.
13:41
Speaker 1: This is an interview, but in conversation, I'm trying to
13:44
Speaker 1: be a better share because I recognize that that's important
13:47
Speaker 1: for closeness totally. So that's a good reminder.
13:52
Speaker 3: Yes, so you share too, and but you know, it's
13:55
Speaker 3: good that you're a good listener because actually people feel
13:58
Speaker 3: really great when someone has truly listened and you're a
14:03
Speaker 3: good listener and you're good at that, but then they
14:06
Speaker 3: to like sort of cement that sense of connection. You
14:10
Speaker 3: too have to be vulnerable and to share.
14:14
Speaker 1: So I really love I don't think I told you this,
14:17
Speaker 1: but I made a card deck of fifty two questions
14:19
Speaker 1: for deeper conversation.
14:21
Speaker 3: Amazing sah, And you're doing it and you're helping people.
14:27
Speaker 2: Well, questions are my love language.
14:29
Speaker 1: And I was wondering if there I know questions are
14:32
Speaker 1: so important to you and your work. I found that
14:35
Speaker 1: in the book. Is there any like data to support that?
14:38
Speaker 3: Yes, I mean even what I just shared, the increasing
14:43
Speaker 3: the relationship closeness induction task, It is all about the
14:47
Speaker 3: sort of substance of the questions and that that task
14:50
Speaker 3: has been shown to empirically to increase sense of connection,
14:55
Speaker 3: liking of the other person, interest in engaging with them
14:59
Speaker 3: in the future, and saying that they are a friend,
15:02
Speaker 3: so you like. By you know, creating those good conversation questions,
15:08
Speaker 3: you are allowing people to feel that increased sense of connection.
15:14
Speaker 3: And there's a ton of data that shows that an
15:18
Speaker 3: increased sense of connection is so tightly tied to overall
15:23
Speaker 3: life satisfaction, a sense of meaning in life, and just
15:27
Speaker 3: feeling good in the moment.
15:32
Speaker 2: My name is Danielle Robe.
15:33
Speaker 1: I'm a TV host, the creator of the podcast Pretty.
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Speaker 2: Smart and the best selling card game Question. Everything.
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Speaker 1: I was reading a gallop pole and it said anger, stress,
17:00
Speaker 1: and sadness reached record highs in twenty twenty one. Can
17:03
Speaker 1: I give you my armchair theory on why we're less
17:06
Speaker 1: happy as a whole?
17:07
Speaker 3: Yes?
17:08
Speaker 2: And I almost am scared to tell this to a
17:11
Speaker 2: researcher because I don't want to put you.
17:12
Speaker 1: In a position where you have to reply to my
17:15
Speaker 1: theory that has zero data.
17:17
Speaker 3: Go for it.
17:19
Speaker 1: So I read this book from Forgetting, the author Stephen
17:24
Speaker 1: Pinker Maybe, and he talks about how we are living
17:27
Speaker 1: in the best time ever to be alive statistically less poverty,
17:32
Speaker 1: less violent crime, more convenience, more technology, less war like.
17:36
Speaker 2: The list goes on and on. Now is the best
17:38
Speaker 2: time ever to be alive.
17:41
Speaker 1: At the same time, we have this feeling of discontent
17:46
Speaker 1: and unhappiness and we don't know where it's coming from.
17:50
Speaker 1: So to me, the dissonance between those two things, the
17:54
Speaker 1: expectation of such happiness versus how we actually feel, is
17:58
Speaker 1: what's making us all feel so weird.
18:00
Speaker 3: I think that there's something to that I do, but
18:03
Speaker 3: I and interestingly it's sort of what's the source of
18:06
Speaker 3: our shifted expectations? And I attribute it to social media. Actually,
18:14
Speaker 3: it's seeing a sort of a constantly you're watching the
18:20
Speaker 3: happiness of other people's lives, and you're only seeing those
18:24
Speaker 3: moments where they're most happy, where they're out on this
18:27
Speaker 3: you know, doing something with a group of friends, and
18:29
Speaker 3: they are like on vacation. What you're seeing is for
18:33
Speaker 3: that person these moments their happiest moments. But as you're
18:36
Speaker 3: looking at a lot of people, you're like, oh my god.
18:39
Speaker 3: Constantly there is happiness that other people are having while
18:43
Speaker 3: I'm not because I'm like looking, you know, I'm on
18:46
Speaker 3: my couch looking at the phone. So the expectations of
18:51
Speaker 3: like what you could and should be doing, and that
18:54
Speaker 3: also isn't only from a sort of like could be
18:57
Speaker 3: doing with something else, could be like happier and more fun,
19:00
Speaker 3: but also the sense of what we should be doing.
19:03
Speaker 3: Like our phones are so capable, they allow us to
19:07
Speaker 3: be so capable. We can do a lot on our
19:11
Speaker 3: phones that are very productive, you know, checking items off
19:14
Speaker 3: of our to do list, just by ordering you know,
19:17
Speaker 3: supplies on Amazon, et cetera. We can do a lot
19:20
Speaker 3: on our phone. And by having that constantly available, we
19:23
Speaker 3: believe we should be constantly checking things off of our
19:28
Speaker 3: list and you know, being super productive. So like, with
19:31
Speaker 3: this consistency of what we can and should be doing
19:37
Speaker 3: at every moment, it is shifting our expectations. And you know,
19:41
Speaker 3: I talked about the role of time poverty, of feeling
19:44
Speaker 3: like you don't have enough time to do all that
19:46
Speaker 3: you want to and should do, of course, we don't
19:51
Speaker 3: have enough time because we can and should do an
19:54
Speaker 3: endless number of things at any moment because of what
19:58
Speaker 3: technology has afforded.
20:00
Speaker 2: So you led me into my next question.
20:02
Speaker 1: Perfectly, we glorify being busy, and you write in your
20:05
Speaker 1: book business has become a status symbol that has taken
20:08
Speaker 1: to signal an individual's worth.
20:10
Speaker 2: As I was reading that.
20:11
Speaker 1: I was thinking, is it a human obsession, a twenty
20:14
Speaker 1: first century obsession and American obsession?
20:18
Speaker 2: Why are we glorifying busyness?
20:20
Speaker 3: The research was conducted among a largely American population, so
20:26
Speaker 3: I can't extrapolate it sort of more globally, and I
20:29
Speaker 3: do think that there are some cultural differences in terms
20:32
Speaker 3: of whether busyness is sort of put on a pedestal.
20:36
Speaker 3: The reason, and this isn't my research that shows that
20:39
Speaker 3: busyness has become a status symbol, but the reasoning that
20:42
Speaker 3: it has is because it's suggesting to others as well
20:46
Speaker 3: as yourself. It's a signaling that you are capable, you
20:51
Speaker 3: are in high demand, you are needed, and you are competent.
20:55
Speaker 3: So it is like, I am so busy because I
20:58
Speaker 3: am needed by so many and I'm being you know, asked,
21:01
Speaker 3: and I can you know, accomplish all of this And
21:04
Speaker 3: so with that signaling of productivity and we do value
21:09
Speaker 3: productivity as a culture, we are reverse to being idle.
21:12
Speaker 2: But it's like there is there is room.
21:16
Speaker 3: You don't want to be not busy at all, You
21:19
Speaker 3: don't want to be idle, but being so busy that
21:24
Speaker 3: you are not ever in the present moment and enjoying
21:29
Speaker 3: what you're doing because you're hurrying through everything. That's not
21:33
Speaker 3: fun either, Right, That's where you get the stress and
21:36
Speaker 3: the time poverty effects.
21:39
Speaker 1: I want you to talk to me about money because
21:41
Speaker 1: I've read a lot of articles with headlines. I'm sure
21:44
Speaker 1: everybody listening has seen one of these, like usually they're
21:47
Speaker 1: like ad Week or Business Insider articles that are like
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Speaker 1: people that make one hundred thousand dollars are the happiest,
21:53
Speaker 1: or we need X amount of money to be happy.
21:57
Speaker 1: I personally have always felt that the quote the kind
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Speaker 1: of sums up how I feel about money and happiness
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Speaker 1: is that money is not everything, but not having it is.
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Speaker 1: When I have had moments of being broke, I have
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Speaker 1: a lot of anxiety and unhappiness at the same time.
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Speaker 1: When I have when I get paid for something, it
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Speaker 1: doesn't really increase my happiness.
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Speaker 2: So what does the research show? How much money do
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Speaker 2: we need to be happy?
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Speaker 3: Your quote captures the research perfectly. So what the research
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Speaker 3: shows is that having not enough, like not being able
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Speaker 3: to meet your basic needs, does decrease happiness. But really
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Speaker 3: what it is actually is you have really high negative emotion.
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Speaker 3: You have that stress, that worry, then that anxiety, and
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Speaker 3: because there is this fear like can I pay my bills?
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Speaker 3: Can I sort of continue paying my rent? I don't
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Speaker 3: think it is reasonable to identify, like what is that
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Speaker 3: single amount because it's that data. So initially it was
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Speaker 3: a paper by Danny Kahneman and Ingus Deeton that was
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Speaker 3: averaging across the entire United States, And as we know,
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Speaker 3: different locations have different costs of living, and so I
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Speaker 3: don't think there's a certain amount, but it is absolutely
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Speaker 3: that to the extent that you're able to cover your
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Speaker 3: basic needs, that money is absolutely important. But the research
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Speaker 3: also suggests that having beyond that, having more and more
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Speaker 3: doesn't translate into greater happiness. But they actually I started
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Speaker 3: pulling back to the role of time. If people spend
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Speaker 3: their money and invest their money in ways that actually
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Speaker 3: better their time, you do see that money can have
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Speaker 3: a positive effect, so to the extent that you are
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Speaker 3: spending so that you're having experiences that are contributing to
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Speaker 3: others well being, your sense of social connection with others
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Speaker 3: by going out to dinners, concerts, vacation that allows you
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Speaker 3: to have a shared experience. Yes, like that expenditure of
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Speaker 3: money is going to increase happiness, and there is work
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Speaker 3: that shows that experiential purchases lead to greater happiness the
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Speaker 3: material purchases. There's also research showing that pro social spending,
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Speaker 3: so spending on others can actually make us feel happier
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Speaker 3: than spending on ourselves. So all of this is to
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Speaker 3: say that your quote captures it perfectly. Not having money
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Speaker 3: can make you really unhappy. So it's not that money
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Speaker 3: is not important, but it absolutely is that having a
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Speaker 3: whole bunch more money is not going to make you happier.
24:38
Speaker 3: After a certain point.
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Speaker 1: After reading your book, I kind of recognize that a
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Speaker 1: thorn of happiness is loneliness, and so I actually read
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Speaker 1: that there was a study people in America. The most
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Speaker 1: unhappy group were sixty year old men who had above
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Speaker 1: average income because they weren't surrounded by deep connections and
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Speaker 1: so really it's those relationships that are making us happy.
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Speaker 1: And so it's interesting to hear that you could spend
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Speaker 1: your money to free up your time to deepen your
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Speaker 1: relationships and that's really where the happiness is coming from.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's possible that those men forfeited their relationships
25:19
Speaker 3: along the way, for you know, in pursuit of other goals,
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Speaker 3: and that's where they find themselves less happy. It's interesting.
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Speaker 3: I have exercise that I describe in the book and
25:31
Speaker 3: that I have my students do and it's so valuable.
25:34
Speaker 3: But I have, folks do we have a lot to
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Speaker 3: learn as we're like trying to figure out what's the
25:39
Speaker 3: right life from people who have lived a good one.
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Speaker 3: And so what I have and I encourage everyone to do,
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Speaker 3: is identify someone who is farther along as an old
25:50
Speaker 3: find an old person whom did it right that they
25:54
Speaker 3: are happy and satisfied with their life, and ask them
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Speaker 3: what is your greatest source of pride? What is your
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Speaker 3: greatest source of regret? And I have how did my
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Speaker 3: students do this? And I have them come back and
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Speaker 3: share the vast majority as in like eighty percent say
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Speaker 3: that their greatest source of pride is their relationships, is
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Speaker 3: their family their greatest source of regret. Some of them
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Speaker 3: are like, I don't have regrets because they were addressing
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Speaker 3: them along the way. But the greatest source of regret
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Speaker 3: is not spending enough time on those relationships. So I
26:30
Speaker 3: think that says it all.
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Speaker 1: I interviewed Andrew Yang about a year ago, and I
26:36
Speaker 1: was speaking to his campaign manager and he asked me
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Speaker 1: such a good question. He said, what do you think
26:42
Speaker 1: makes an independent, out of the box thinker?
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Speaker 2: And I was trying.
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Speaker 1: I think I gave him some answer like, I think
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Speaker 1: it's about learning how to think instead of what to think.
26:53
Speaker 1: And I also felt like it was about like adults
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Speaker 1: asking you questions as a kid because it builds your confidence.
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Speaker 2: And I said, what do you what do you think?
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Speaker 1: And he said, I think it's exposure to the arts.
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Speaker 1: And I was like, mind blood, Like where did you
27:08
Speaker 1: come up with that? And then in your book you
27:11
Speaker 1: talk about the importance of exposure to the arts and
27:16
Speaker 1: engaging with the arts.
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Speaker 2: So can you elaborate on that? Yeah?
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Speaker 3: So, and the short answer is it's so important for
27:25
Speaker 3: both creativity as well as emotional wellbeing, and that even
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Speaker 3: sense of time affluence because it pulls us outside of ourselves.
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Speaker 3: It's expanding beyond our own personal experience into another's experience
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Speaker 3: through their our eyes and what they've created. And through
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Speaker 3: that expansion, that's where you get these new ideas. That's
27:50
Speaker 3: where you feel for yourself that you're expanded. And so
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Speaker 3: I talk about it in the context of the book
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Speaker 3: because again going back to this role of time time poverty,
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Speaker 3: of feeling like you don't have enough time, which is
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Speaker 3: really limiting. So when we feel time poor, we feel
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Speaker 3: less confident, so we don't feel like we can achieve
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Speaker 3: our goals. We're less nice, we don't take the time
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Speaker 3: to help others, we're less healthy because we don't take
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Speaker 3: the time to exercise, and we're less happy. But when
28:23
Speaker 3: and so I talk about other ways that you can
28:25
Speaker 3: expand your sense of time. And I talked about the
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Speaker 3: role of exposing yourself to the arts and experiencing moments
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Speaker 3: of awe. And so something that makes you feel awe,
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Speaker 3: that's shifting your perspective, expanding you, but beyond yourself, that
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Speaker 3: actually expands your sense of how much time you have.
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Speaker 3: You're not worried about the like you know, logistics of
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Speaker 3: the day, you're thinking more broadly about life and bigness
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Speaker 3: and the world around you. And so that is why
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Speaker 3: one of the many of these and so why being
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Speaker 3: exposed to the arts is so powerful.
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Speaker 1: I was really excited to hear that now we actually met.
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Speaker 1: I didn't tell everybody we met because we were at
29:09
Speaker 1: Eve Rodsky's house in LA for a women's lunch. And
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Speaker 1: Eve has this saying that society views women's time as
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Speaker 1: infinite like sand, and use men's time as finite like diamonds.
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Speaker 1: So can you talk to me about time poverty as
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Speaker 1: it relates to gender.
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Speaker 3: Yes, and Eve is amazing for so many reasons, including,
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Speaker 3: you know, connecting women like us and importantly highlighting the
29:39
Speaker 3: sort of inequities in this case time, which are very real. So,
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Speaker 3: as I've talked about the role of time poverty again,
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Speaker 3: it's this feeling of having too much to do and
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Speaker 3: not enough time to do it. In serving people, measuring
29:54
Speaker 3: who feels time poor, what you see is that women
29:59
Speaker 3: feel more time poor than men. Working moms feel more
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Speaker 3: time poor than working dads. And why. Part of it
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Speaker 3: is because they are taking on the additional tasks in
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Speaker 3: the household. Also, there's this cognitive load that we are
30:21
Speaker 3: mentally cycling through all the things that we need to do,
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Speaker 3: and it's not fair, right, and it's really destructive again
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Speaker 3: because I already talked about all the detrimental effects of
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Speaker 3: being time poor. Now, the important thing is that we
30:38
Speaker 3: ourselves as women also don't think of our time as stand.
30:43
Speaker 3: That we are deliberate in how we spend our time.
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Speaker 3: So not saying yes to every request that's coming in
30:51
Speaker 3: if it is outside of the scope of what will
30:55
Speaker 3: contribute to your personal purpose, whether it's professional or personal.
30:59
Speaker 3: And so we need to treat our time like diamonds.
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Speaker 3: If we don't, then other people aren't going to either.
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Speaker 3: And that's actually I love your question, and I hadn't
31:08
Speaker 3: really thought about it in that way. But when you are,
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Speaker 3: you know, reflecting on your moments of joy, those are
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Speaker 3: the diamonds, and making sure that you sparkle, you know,
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Speaker 3: your upcoming calendar with those diamonds, so that your experiences
31:26
Speaker 3: are that shiny and joyful and that it is not
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Speaker 3: sand that's just sort of filled your time just because
31:34
Speaker 3: you're sort of too nice to say no.
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Speaker 1: So Eleanor Roosevelt has this quote. I love that happiness
31:40
Speaker 1: is not a goal. It is a byproduct. Are there
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Speaker 1: three specific habits that you feel like we can develop
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Speaker 1: to increase our happiness.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's a great question. First, it would be
31:54
Speaker 3: to actually shift some of our habits into rituals, so
31:58
Speaker 3: turning a routine into a ritual such that isn't something
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Speaker 3: that you mindlessly go through without thinking, but instead really
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Speaker 3: cherish that time while you're spending it. The second is
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Speaker 3: to make sure that you spend and carve out and
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Speaker 3: protect time for those moments that bring you joy, so
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Speaker 3: that you don't find yourself at the end of the
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Speaker 3: week having done nothing that was really fulfilling and joyful.
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Speaker 3: Third is actually so simple. It is getting outside and exercising,
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Speaker 3: and it is not intense exercise. It is going for
32:34
Speaker 3: a walk. But the research shows that being outside without
32:39
Speaker 3: a roof of your head makes us happier.
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Speaker 1: Those are really good And number two is something I
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Speaker 1: am going to implement. I am so bad at that.
32:50
Speaker 2: It takes.
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Speaker 3: I mean it takes for you know you all of
32:54
Speaker 3: us who are very sort of productivity oriented. It's like
32:58
Speaker 3: all of my to dos, which what you need to
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Speaker 3: do is prioritize these opportunities for joy.
33:07
Speaker 2: How have you personally made your time richer.
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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, it's like endless. I have lived all
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Speaker 3: of this research, and in the book I talk a
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Speaker 3: lot about my experience because I've done it and I
33:21
Speaker 3: am like from that moment, you know, that night on
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Speaker 3: the train where I had too much to do and
33:28
Speaker 3: wasn't happy. Now, yes, my days are very full. I
33:33
Speaker 3: am working, I have two young kids, I have my
33:36
Speaker 3: partner and my friends, but all of them I feel
33:41
Speaker 3: are I'm spending my time in ways that are really fulfilling.
33:45
Speaker 3: And so it is about prioritizing what's important, about saying
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Speaker 3: no to all this stuff that's outside of my personal
33:52
Speaker 3: purpose which I've identified for myself, about creating knowledge about
33:57
Speaker 3: what makes people happy. This eminating that knowledge about what
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Speaker 3: makes people happy and making the individuals in my life happy.
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Speaker 3: If it's not along that, then it's like I do
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Speaker 3: not spend my time on it. And also being really
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Speaker 3: deliberate when I'm spending my time, as in paying attention
34:16
Speaker 3: because recognizing that indeed our time is so precious. We
34:20
Speaker 3: have all been reminded of that, and in my research,
34:24
Speaker 3: I find that as people get older, they're reminded of
34:28
Speaker 3: the preciousness of our lives, and then unfortunately there are
34:32
Speaker 3: crises that remind us of it as well. And so
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Speaker 3: just recognizing that we can't take the time that we
34:39
Speaker 3: have for granted. These moments of joy are right there
34:43
Speaker 3: in front of us, and opportunities that if we just
34:46
Speaker 3: pay attention we won't miss out.
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Speaker 2: Wonderful. I do a quick rapid fire. Are you ready? Yes?
34:54
Speaker 1: Okay, So this goes against all research, but a small
34:57
Speaker 1: purchase that has brought joy into your life?
35:01
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, my candelates.
35:04
Speaker 1: Oh okay, what is your favorite city in the world,
35:07
Speaker 1: Santa Monica.
35:09
Speaker 2: What is a book that has changed your life?
35:11
Speaker 3: Well? Writing it happier.
35:13
Speaker 2: Hour, that's fair enough. That is life changing.
35:17
Speaker 1: I always ask everyone a pretty smart question. You let
35:20
Speaker 1: me know when to stop.
35:22
Speaker 3: Stop.
35:23
Speaker 1: Okay, this is a I always feel like people get
35:25
Speaker 1: the question that they're supposed to.
35:28
Speaker 2: What is your defining characteristic? Happy? And finally, what is
35:34
Speaker 2: the smartest decision you've ever made?
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Speaker 3: Marrying my husband?
35:39
Speaker 2: Thank you so much?
35:41
Speaker 3: Thank you? This is really fun.
36:10
Speaker 1: All right, Today is a good day. To have a
36:12
Speaker 1: good day. I'll see you next week.