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Let It Be (With Joe C.) · Emotional Sobriety: The Next Step in Recovery

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Foreign.
• 0:07
  Speaker B: Welcome to Emotional Sobriety, the next step in Recovery, with Dr. Alan Berger and Tom Rutledge. It's a miracle that any of this stuff works at all. And so I tell myself this as I'm struggling mightily to get difficult mornings like this to work. I'll just be. Before we started, before even the real problem started on the stream today, my main microphone went kaput. It went kaput last week, and then this week, it's. It really went kaput. So I've got my. My backup yeti that I'm using. So, yeah, when it rains, it pours.
• 0:42
  Speaker C: But I'm okay, even if I'm okay, even if I have to use the yeti.
• 0:47
  Speaker A: Well, but. But the gratitude part is I have a backup yeti.
• 0:51
  Speaker B: Yeah, I had a feeling. Right. I got it because I'm just doing a lot of this, and. And I'm also. Sometimes I have to do it in one location or the other. So, yeah, I don't know. It's unsolicited advice for our audience is just get a backup set up and
• 1:07
  Speaker A: then just get a backup yeti.
• 1:09
  Speaker B: Backup yeti. Yeah, I love saying that. Backup yeti.
• 1:12
  Speaker A: That'll be our new.
• 1:12
  Speaker C: You know, it's funny you say it, though, Patrick, but there is a metaphor here, because emotional sobriety is always having a backup plan. See, it's one way to think about this. And see, this is what I love about this concept because it's so practical, and I think that's what speaks to so many people. I mean, you can see we get so much feedback all the time. Tom and I see that on a Thursday night, that this way of life is changing, how people are experiencing their lives in recovery. And in one sense, it is always having a backup plan, meaning that if things don't go our way, that we know what we need to do to deal with it, that we acknowledge our feelings, that. I'm disappointed. And then we search for. What is possible like today is that we deal with what we have to deal with, given the current circumstances, without saying this shouldn't be happening. It is happening. So now what do we do with it? How do we wrap our head around it?
• 2:17
  Speaker A: Well, and this. This is also the remedy for what Joe is talking about. About. About. He says, you know, he's kind of on the growing edge of. Of, you know, practicing, keeping curiosity, where. Where the desire for. Or the demand for certainty would just shows up on its own. You know, that's. Those are. Those are automatic thoughts. They whisper at the windows and bang on the door. Just like people in our interpersonal lives, the wisdom in us will not be that way. It's not going to be disrespectful. It's not going to jump, come in, grab us, slap us around and start saying wise things to us. But it's there if we ask.
• 2:55
  Speaker B: You know, what helps, too, in terms of frustration? And then I want to get to. Tom's nutshell is being in a recovery community where you can see a guy who absolutely used to fly off the handle regularly and, like, you know, somebody who, Like. Yeah, me. Yeah, yeah. I mean, but like, you could see somebody whose natural inclination is not towards, you know, the emotionally sober thing, but you see them meet situations that are super frustrating with this emotionally low center
• 3:23
  Speaker C: of gravity, with this equanimity. Right. With an equanimity that. And evenness of mind. That's right, yeah.
• 3:29
  Speaker B: And then you see it, and you know that it's possible. And you know that like, oh, my God, look at, like, I know where that guy used to be. You know, I. I know how difficult it must be for him to summon whatever this thing is, and then yet he's doing it. So it's a little carrot to keep me, you know, on the path.
• 3:47
  Speaker D: It's easy to forget that, you know, in terms of being curious and, you know, approaching life with wonder, The. The intimacy of the meetings we go to, the people we know, the. The getting to know these inside parts of them, as opposed to talking about whether fashion, you know, just, you know, superficial bullshit, the price of gas, you know, that gets dull in a hurry. But meetings always wonder, me being an audience to other people's growth, like you were talking about that, too. Patrick, I can think of a dozen people who. It's just, you know, what an honor to be on the inside and giving a bit of that.
• 4:34
  Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So this is Tom's nutshell. Rather than praying for circumstances to change, pray for the strength and wisdom to face those circumstances.
• 4:44
  Speaker D: Words, we get lost if we take them literally. Like my need for certainty. I want us to all agree on what the word means, and no exceptions. Right? Just let's have consensus. But that's not how it works. But words are place markers for ideas, and those ideas, they're place markers for possibilities. So, you know, words people use that I don't use, like prayer, for instance. I know what they mean.
• 5:17
  Speaker C: Right.
• 5:18
  Speaker D: I have that same experience that they have in life, but I. I'm trying not to get caught up in, you know, don't talk that way. You use my language and so, you know, words, you know, that's the old thing as sticks and stones can break my bones, but words will never hurt me. Right. And I, I really need to hold what the words people use to describe their experiences as the English language is. It's all we got. But it's a, it's a, it's not a perfect tool for communicating, especially emotions. And so I'm, again, I'm trying to be less demanding that, you know, everything has, you know, consensus on meaning. So instead of prayer, I would probably use contemplation, meditation. You know, just. I don't believe in a prayer answering sobriety, granting type of higher power who I'm talking to and is talking back to me. But, but I understand what people mean.
• 6:21
  Speaker A: Yeah. Because if we, if we define our terms, we're going to find out we're not disagreeing with each other.
• 6:27
  Speaker D: Yeah.
• 6:27
  Speaker A: You know, because I, I stopped using certain, certain terms because they were used religiously for a while. And, and I really return to that because they do mean they are important to me. And, and I have, I understand what I mean by them and I'm open to people questioning those big things. But I mean, because any, any of us will, any of us have ever been in a relationship. That's why all of us like to know that you. And as a couple's therapist, I see this all the time. How many times, Alan, do you see somebody in your, in your office and you realize they don't disagree nearly as much as they think they do? The beliefs I have about prayer are actually rather secular. I've read Larry Dossey's medical doctor who wrote a book called, called the Power of Prayer, Really a brilliant book. And it's about, it's about what people have research and studied prayer kind of in laboratory settings.
• 7:20
  Speaker B: The crux of the nutshell to me, it seems, is moving from passivity into action. You know, it's like if you're, if your circumstances are wounding you in some way, you know, like what, what we formerly used to do is we would want the kind of world to bend around us. But this is kind of putting us more into a mindset of everybody's.
• 7:41
  Speaker A: Go online, you find everything about manifesting, you know, which means I'm going to make happen what I want happen. It's like, it sounds very attractive when you start talking about it. But, but, but I think about in terms of emotional sobriety. And now this is where everybody's terms would need to be, you know, listened to because I'm going to make assumptions here. But it's, it's like sometimes I think, for me, you know, I think in terms of manifesting. What I'm talking about is just trying to get the world to operate the way I want it to. Just. Just pray to be ready, you know, Pray to be prepared.
• 8:13
  Speaker B: Well, right. Manifesting is. It kind of implies I need to get what I want, right?
• 8:18
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 8:18
  Speaker B: As opposed to let me just. Let me just accept what I have or let me find a way to live with what I have. What if it never manifests, you know? And then will I be okay?
• 8:30
  Speaker A: It's also competitive in my opinion, when I, when you talk about. Because people who, who manifests the best, you go, go, go online and, and it was like, that's kind of what it's about. And if you're not, if you're not getting what you want, you're probably not a good manifest.
• 8:44
  Speaker D: Right.
• 8:45
  Speaker B: A lot of people on Shark Tank want to manifest.
• 8:49
  Speaker C: You know, your nutshell is so relevant to what we. What was happening here today, wasn't it?
• 8:55
  Speaker A: Yes, and.
• 8:57
  Speaker C: Right. We. See, that's what I love about this stuff. As I said before, one of the great things about a multil sobriety, it's. It's relevant to our existence and how we live our life. And see, that's, that's. See, when I was in graduate school, we would read Freud and I would have so much trouble because I could not relate what he was talking about to my life experience. Right, right. It seems so abstract and so distant from my felt experience. And, and that's the. One of the things I love about emotional sobriety and a lot of. Even the different approaches to typotherapy that, that I, I think have so much to offer. Something that feels relevant and helps me kind of get a path to how to be in this world and be okay without it demanding that things be a certain way. See, that's the key. It seems to me, Patrick, and you know what you struggled with this morning? Look, that's the part of you that wants to do a great job, wants everything to work out. That's a beautiful. You know, that's something that I respect about you. You're very professional. At the same time, things don't always work out for us, you know? And then what. What are we left with? See, that's the point. What are we left with when things don't work out? What do we do when things don't go our way? As I think Joe said, that's where the rubber meets the road. That's what this Emotional sobriety is all about. It gives us something, a different way of responding to our disappointment or frustration so we don't have to let it define us. Right?
• 10:39
  Speaker A: Yeah. Let me. I was telling somebody this yesterday. We learn. We know, we learn from our mistakes. We learn from screwing up. And we've talked about that frequently with our group here. We have lots of material to work with.
• 10:54
  Speaker B: I keep screwing up just so that we have plenty to talk about.
• 10:57
  Speaker A: That's right.
• 10:58
  Speaker B: Make sure, keep up the good work.
• 11:00
  Speaker A: But we also learn from when we do things right and, and notice, noticing, success. And that's what you were talking about earlier, guys, where you're saying you're on the inside and you're getting to watch the growth of people. And it's like. So let's just go ahead and apply this to this, to this morning. I mean, every. Everybody who's listening is not. Was not privy to the, to the. The technical issues that the Patrick you. I start say we were dealing with, but Patrick was dealing with it. We were just making fun of him and, and for giving them trouble. But it's. But I don't know what's going on inside of you or not, but you. Cool, calm, collected. As far as I was concerned, you just, you know, you didn't even. I said some pretty funny things. I thought that you weren't even distracted by, you know, because you were busy.
• 11:45
  Speaker D: You've heard me say before, I really prefer the concept of let it be instead of let it go, because if I'm letting it go, I'm still in charge. That's gotta go. Right. That's bad. As opposed to just sort of let it be. Right. You know, the traffic, that's perfect. The results, you know, once I throw a pitch. Right. I don't control the rest of what happens. Right. I'd like to, but I don't. I just have to let life be.
• 12:18
  Speaker A: Well, you. I never thought about that. Now, talk about language, though. Let it go actually does imply some belief that I control it.
• 12:26
  Speaker D: Yeah, that's right.
• 12:27
  Speaker A: Yeah. And I mean, and this is. This is a great example of let's not get caught up in the semantics, because that's not where it is. But, but I. Because I've always liked that when you've talked about let it be said, let it go. And I don't think I understood why that felt right to me. But you just described it.
• 12:43
  Speaker D: Got it from Paul McCartney, really.
• 12:45
  Speaker C: If I'm not loved and accepted, then what am I?
• 12:48
  Speaker B: See?
• 12:49
  Speaker C: That becomes the issue. I am nothing if I'M not important. And so then we start to not just validate our self esteem, but it goes deeper than that. See, I'm looking to validate my existence on this planet. And when you think about it from that depth, my goodness, no wonder why I was so driven, right? Because what I saw is that if I could control things somehow, it was a validation of my existence on this planet, that I had a place, I was something, I mattered in some way. And if I don't matter, then I'm nothing. See, I think that that issue that the existentialists have really been tackling is so important for us to embrace as part of this dynamic here. And so it's to unhook, as Bill said, if we unhook ourselves from my need to validate my existence by what happens to me. See, that's the danger. If I define my existence, the value of my existence by what's happening, then I'm going to be externally focused, I'm going to be looking outside of ourselves. As Tom has said this a lot, we look at the outcome. What impact am I having on the world? And the big shift in emotional sobriety is instead of worrying about being. Validating our existence from what's going on around us is to validate our existence from our experience and from who we are, right? That's where, that's. If we move in that direction, we, we approach being unshakable.
• 14:33
  Speaker D: I remember being accused. It was, Joe, you're a human doing, not a human being. You gotta connect with who you are, not what you do. Right? It was all about accomplishment and worth. As Alan was saying.
• 14:51
  Speaker B: Yeah, I fall into that trap daily.
• 14:54
  Speaker A: I was gonna say how confusing. What, I mean, probably all of us, four of us could tell stories about when we. Whatever form, when we came across that. And probably those exact words we all got at some point. But, but it's like, it's a really. It's baffling. It's like, okay, well, logically I understand the words, I speak English, you know, but it's like, what does that even mean? You know, is. Is because when you first hear it, when you first focus on it, it's like, I mean, I, I'll just speak for myself. I didn't know, you know, I might have told myself I knew, but it's like, no, I, you know, it's a little bit like what you were talking about earlier, Patrick, is like when you. And this is why, you know, don't measure everything every single day. It's like, you know, give, give it, give It. Time, space to. To grow and move and understand that basically, you know, and I say, probably say this every, Every week is the only accurate insight that I believe that we have is hindsight. And we can tell our stories afterwards when there's lots of, Lots of lessons in those stories. But if I try to tell you the story of what I'm learning right now, it's not going to be accurate. Like, it's going to. I may have some points to make, but it's like, if, you know, if we want to tell Alan, if you, if you're talking about. We're talking about the health stuff that we went through individually or you too, Patrick, fallen. Falling off a mountain. It's like, like, I mean, we can tell stories about that stuff now that actually, you know, hold water. It's like at the time we were, you know, and it was fine. It's fine. It's part of the process. We were just kind of guessing. I.
• 16:29
  Speaker B: Yesterday I became comfortably, uncomfortably aware of just how much validation I was seeking from my girlfriend.
• 16:36
  Speaker D: Well, I'm a believer that being in a relationship with someone, it is my responsibility to validate them. I mean, it's just a matter of extremes, right? You know, like, yes, I'm gonna help you feel better about yourself. I'm going to catch you doing things, right? I'm going to tell you what is so special about you to me, right? That's not codependent, that's couplehood, right? And. But it's just a matter of where are the extremes. And I can sort of pull the. Letting it be, right? Being aware of it, that here I am, I'm, you know, telling someone something and hoping they say, well, what a good boy you are, Joe. What a good boy you are.
• 17:27
  Speaker B: I. Those atta boys. I. I'm I'm kind of like it's another addiction I have, unfortunately. All right, well, let's do June 17th. It's today's date. And I love Joe's book Beyond Belief agnostic musings for 12 Step Life. So this is June 17th. I would much rather have regrets about not doing what people said than regretting not doing what my heart led me to and wondering what life would have been if I had just been myself. And then I will read. I'll read the what he's written below. In addiction, certain people co signed our bullshit. We counted on them to help rationalize that we weren't all that bad. A lot of us recall admitting powerlessness as a superficial gesture.
• 18:12
  Speaker C: At first.
• 18:13
  Speaker B: We weren't willing to go to any lengths. We just wanted to get the heat off. Saying uncle was often an act to tell loved ones what they wanted to hear. We were not only conning our loved ones, we were also kidding ourselves. Some of us get a rare flash of introspection, a candid voice inside that knows we are beaten and cannot afford to be prideful. Some call this a spiritual awakening, a moment of clarity, or a postcard from our subconscious. In such instances, we don't listen to others. We follow our hearts. The longer we are clean and sober, the more twists and turns our lives take. We care what others have to say. We can take advice, but we have our own unique paths and we follow our own muses. We have self worth now and we aren't afraid to try and fail. We don't blame ourselves or others for mistakes. They are an intrinsic result of trying new things when we are unsure. Sometimes the best thing to do is to try something. Then we can back off if that turns out not to sit well with us. What do I see when I look in the mirror today? Am I being true to myself? Am I following my heart or just playing it safe?
• 19:19
  Speaker A: Atta boy, Joe.
• 19:21
  Speaker D: Atta boy, Patrick. I love the way he read that. That was. It was like musical.
• 19:27
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 19:27
  Speaker A: There's so much in that. Yeah. It's not all or none. It's like, it's not like I got it or I didn't get it. We come and go, you know, we are, as they told me when I first came into aa, we are human beings, therefore forgetting machines. So what we learn, we will forget. And then that's why we have each other, so we can remind each other.
• 19:49
  Speaker D: I was in New York City for a few days and went to see a play twice a one woman show. Katherine Godin, the spouse of Mandy Patinkin, which most people know from either music
• 20:02
  Speaker B: or he's a friend of the podcast. We've talked about Iniga Montoya several times here.
• 20:08
  Speaker D: And they, during the pandemic, their son sort of just was, you know, interviewing them as a couple and posting it and like, it really took off. But she's doing this one woman show about, you know, aging. One of the things she said was, you know, okay, so 60 is the new 50. 70 is the new 60, but 80 is 80.
• 20:40
  Speaker A: It's true.
• 20:41
  Speaker D: And she had another great one. You said, do you want to have a broken heart or an unused one? Those are your choices.
• 20:52
  Speaker A: Nice. Yeah, nice.
• 20:56
  Speaker B: That relates to what you wrote here about mistakes being mistakes being an intrinsic part of trying new things. And I just love the way that's phrased, that they're intrinsic. Because that means that, you know, it's. It's expect mistakes. Not only just, you know, be okay, even if it's. That no mistakes will happen. And that's just part of the form
• 21:18
  Speaker D: Bernay Brown talks about. There is no courage without vulnerability. You gotta be taking a chance and not being able to control the outcome.
• 21:29
  Speaker B: Life's full of paradoxes, you know, it's like you can only be brave when you're afraid.
• 21:34
  Speaker D: But there's only two of them. A pair of docks, both boats.
• 21:39
  Speaker A: Dr. Kildare and Ben Casey. It's like.
• 21:43
  Speaker D: What's on your mind, Alan? You look like you look.
• 21:45
  Speaker C: I'm looking up a poem by Rumi called Beautiful. Let me see if I can find it here. Because it's so relevant to what we're talking about. And I was just reading it the other night. I mean, you know, to our listeners, if you have not read some of Rumi's poems that have been translated by Robert Bly and Conan Barks, I mean, they are so incredibly brilliant. And now, these were written in the 12th century. So that's always what. What blows my mind, right? It's like, how did he have such a sense of life and what's going on?
• 22:27
  Speaker A: The human condition is not any different than it was all those thousands of years ago. These. These are not new insights. These are. These are validating things. When somebody, you know, from thousands of years ago says something that I identify with, it's sort of like, okay, well, that.
• 22:42
  Speaker C: That.
• 22:43
  Speaker A: That part is not different. I mean, they weren't having frustrations with their computers, but, you know, they were still having issues with whatever they had.
• 22:51
  Speaker C: So this one's called who Makes these Changes? Who Makes these Changes? I shoot an arrow, right, and it lands left. I ride after a deer, and I find myself chased by a hog. I plot to get what I want, and I end up in prison. Oh, I relate to that one. I plot to get what I want, and I end up in prison. I dig pits to trap others, and then I fall in. I should be suspicious of what I want. It is so frigging brilliant. I mean.
• 23:22
  Speaker A: I mean, put that on your wall. Be suspicious of what you want. It's like, no kidding, right?
• 23:28
  Speaker C: You know, he uses this. This metaphor of how do birds learn how to make these bird circles in the sky? And what he says is, is they fall. And by falling they learn how to fly. And it's such a metaphor, isn't it? In terms of there's no nothing that can replace the importance of us having experience and learning from it. And the big challenge in our life is to get out of the way so we can learn, you know, and how we do that is dropping these expectations that we should have it already figured out. There's no reason that you should have it figured out. No one has all these answers in terms of what's going on here. And the great thing is we. We don't have to. We can discover them along the way.