Latest / Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor / Counterpunch, reality therapy, and giving young people real tools for life with Mercedas Taaffe-Cooper

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Counterpunch, reality therapy, and giving young people real tools for life with Mercedas Taaffe-Cooper · Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor

0:09
Speaker 1: Mercedes Taff Cooper, welcome to the podcast.
0:13
Speaker 2: Thanks, Paul. Pleasure to be here.
0:15
Speaker 3: Now, listeners will straight away pick up that even though
0:19
Speaker 3: you live in Australia, you're not an Aussie. But interesting background.
0:24
Speaker 3: So you obviously live in or are from Ireland, but
0:28
Speaker 3: the name Taff. Taff Cooper. Where's Taff come from?
0:33
Speaker 2: I believe Taff is originally Welsh. It's certainly used as,
0:36
Speaker 2: you know, describing Welsh people. They're Taffs in majorities. But
0:40
Speaker 2: I believe we came in around 1690 with James II
0:44
Speaker 2: a lot. And unfortunately, we were on the losing side.
0:47
Speaker 2: But the Taff name's still there with that spelling. Interesting,
0:52
Speaker 2: there's two pubs with the very same spelling, the Taff pub.
0:56
Speaker 2: One's in Carlingford and the other one's in Galway. So...
1:00
Speaker 2: and they're beautiful pubs.
1:03
Speaker 3: Yeah, the reason I ask that, because when I was
1:05
Speaker 3: in the Armed Forces, all the Welsh people were called Taff,
1:08
Speaker 3: all the Irish people were called Paddy. Probably not allowed
1:11
Speaker 3: to do that these days, right? But interesting, 1690 means
1:16
Speaker 3: nothing to anybody unless they're from Ireland.
1:19
Speaker 2: The Battle of the Boeing. The Battle of the Boeing.
1:23
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right.
1:25
Speaker 2: I said boxed. I fought William of Orange. I actually
1:28
Speaker 2: literally said boxed William of Orange.
1:32
Speaker 1: Which gives a little insight into what we're going to
1:35
Speaker 1: be talking about. But that was....
1:39
Speaker 3: When King James, the Irish king, was fighting King William
1:43
Speaker 3: of Orange, who was actually Dutch, right? And had invaded
1:47
Speaker 3: England at the time and then came in. And that's
1:50
Speaker 3: where the whole history of Northern Ireland came in because
1:52
Speaker 3: when he defeated King James, he brought in the planters,
1:56
Speaker 3: the Scottish planters, the Scottish landlords, kicked all the Catholic
2:00
Speaker 3: landlords off Northern Ireland. And that's where that Protestant... thing
2:05
Speaker 3: came into Northern Ireland, right? So long history.
2:09
Speaker 2: Indeed.
2:10
Speaker 3: And now, give us a little bit on your background
2:14
Speaker 3: because it's a very interesting background and obviously opens up
2:17
Speaker 3: this whole conversation that we're going to have today.
2:20
Speaker 2: Sure. Well, as you mentioned, I'm originally from Ireland. I
2:23
Speaker 2: spent over 40 years of my life there. I'm from
2:25
Speaker 2: a little place called Coolanny, a little village in the
2:28
Speaker 2: Ox Mountains in County Slytherin. While there, I competed in
2:34
Speaker 2: martial arts, kickboxing, couldn't kick to save my life, specialized
2:38
Speaker 2: in boxing, became a coach. I did all right at
2:42
Speaker 2: kickboxing once. I threw a few kicks and then I boxed.
2:45
Speaker 2: So I managed to win a European title and a
2:47
Speaker 2: world title in that as an athlete. And then I
2:51
Speaker 2: kind of specialized in coaching the hand element, which was
2:54
Speaker 2: the boxing. So I had two lads that were on
2:56
Speaker 2: the Irish team. In 2001, I think I was probably
3:01
Speaker 2: the first female coach of an elite men's boxing team
3:05
Speaker 2: at the World Championships in Belfast in 2001. I basically,
3:12
Speaker 2: from a study point of view, I met Nicolas Cruz
3:15
Speaker 2: Hernandez shortly after the 92 Olympics, and he was traveling
3:18
Speaker 2: around doing workshops in Ireland. He taught me the science
3:23
Speaker 2: aspect of sport, boxing in particular. I learned heaps from
3:28
Speaker 2: his workshops and he worked a lot with the two
3:31
Speaker 2: lads that I coached. He was very generous with his knowledge.
3:34
Speaker 2: And as a result, I ended up doing a sports
3:38
Speaker 2: and exercise science degree at the University of Limerick. But
3:42
Speaker 2: two years previously, I'd started an open university degree in psychology.
3:46
Speaker 2: So in my wisdom, I ended up overlapping for two years,
3:49
Speaker 2: which in hindsight was probably not the best idea I've
3:51
Speaker 2: ever had. So I ended up doing two degrees and
3:55
Speaker 2: then I actually won a scholarship to do a PhD
4:00
Speaker 2: in University of Limerick comparing elite athletes and recreational athletes,
4:05
Speaker 2: you know, when they're injured. As a sort of a
4:08
Speaker 2: consequence of that, we needed to find a questionnaire that
4:11
Speaker 2: was empirical, blah, blah, blah, so you could actually... And
4:14
Speaker 2: that's how I ended up discovering reality therapy and choice
4:17
Speaker 2: theory because I went to do the week-long training. And
4:21
Speaker 2: while there, like, it was a bit like... an epiphany,
4:24
Speaker 2: like I made a few huge decisions. I sold the
4:26
Speaker 2: house I grew up in. I gave up the scholarship
4:28
Speaker 2: and decided I wanted to move to Australia, which I
4:32
Speaker 2: did after a lot of, you know, maybe two years
4:35
Speaker 2: later with the, all the stuff with visas and things
4:38
Speaker 2: like that. My brother had already been here for 20
4:40
Speaker 2: odd years at that time. And I ended up in Tasmania,
4:46
Speaker 2: fell in love with it, almost joined the police and
4:49
Speaker 2: eventually ended up doing a master's in clinical psychology at
4:54
Speaker 2: the University of Tasmania. And while I was doing that,
4:58
Speaker 2: I had to do a thesis. So I did it
5:01
Speaker 2: using reality therapy and choice theory at a school in Hobart,
5:06
Speaker 2: primary school with fifth and sixth grade kids, and basically
5:10
Speaker 2: tested the concept that is now counterpunch, realized the impact
5:15
Speaker 2: of the physical component, which was very minimal, but it
5:17
Speaker 2: was a huge, uh, Variable. And met my husband here.
5:23
Speaker 2: He was Army, so ended up in Darwin. Eventually in Darwin,
5:28
Speaker 2: got the opportunity to work with the Child and Adolescent
5:32
Speaker 2: Mental Health in the clinical psych sort of area. And
5:36
Speaker 2: eventually talked the government into funding what is now Counterpunch
5:40
Speaker 2: as a pilot program with the Men's School of Health,
5:43
Speaker 2: do some research around it. Yeah. Made some recommendations, moved
5:48
Speaker 2: back down here to South Australia in 2015. Set it
5:52
Speaker 2: up way too soon, if I might add, as a
5:54
Speaker 2: private company and been running it since then, further testing it.
5:59
Speaker 2: We now have a full curriculum tested. We have a
6:02
Speaker 2: number of other people delivering it, so it's replicable. And
6:05
Speaker 2: just this past year, we've put everything online for the
6:08
Speaker 2: training and we're now at the point of scaling it, teaching,
6:12
Speaker 2: getting more facilitators delivering it.
6:15
Speaker 3: So tell us, I'm so much in that and super
6:18
Speaker 3: interesting and nice to kind of pop around different parts
6:23
Speaker 3: of Australia. How good is Hobart? It's bloody awesome.
6:25
Speaker 1: I love Tassie.
6:26
Speaker 2: It's just a wee bit isolated, but it's a beautiful,
6:29
Speaker 2: spectacular scenery.
6:31
Speaker 3: Hobart is just stunning. And the Adelaide Hills.
6:36
Speaker 1: What did you describe it just before we came on?
6:39
Speaker 2: Adelaide Hills, it's green, it's got four seasons, but you
6:43
Speaker 2: always guarantee the sunshine. So I would compare it to Ireland,
6:46
Speaker 2: but with a roof. Much less rain, but we still
6:51
Speaker 2: get the green apart from the actual summer.
6:54
Speaker 3: Which is brilliant. So look, tell me about the thesis
6:58
Speaker 3: that you did and any of the research and the
7:00
Speaker 3: validation with UTAS. And by the way, I actually started
7:02
Speaker 3: my PhD in UTAS and ended up going to the
7:04
Speaker 3: University of Newcastle. So I know the Menzies Institute well.
7:08
Speaker 2: Okay. The Men's Institute that did the further research was
7:12
Speaker 2: actually in the Northern Territory.
7:14
Speaker 3: Ah, okay. Right.
7:15
Speaker 2: Gotcha. The research was for the clinical masters. And I mean,
7:21
Speaker 2: you've probably come across this. It's really, really hard to
7:24
Speaker 2: get anything passed that isn't CBT based.
7:27
Speaker 3: Yes.
7:27
Speaker 2: I really wanted to do it in reality therapy choice theory,
7:31
Speaker 2: because for me, that was the thing that most impacted
7:33
Speaker 2: my life and most worked for me. And I think
7:36
Speaker 2: it's is the best approach when you're working, especially with adolescents. So, yeah.
7:43
Speaker 1: Sorry, let's take a step back a little bit.
7:46
Speaker 3: Tell our listeners what, give us the kind of the
7:50
Speaker 3: few minute overview of reality therapy and choice theory, because
7:53
Speaker 3: it obviously had a massive impact on your life and
7:55
Speaker 3: is taking you down a path.
7:57
Speaker 1: So what's that all about?
8:00
Speaker 2: Sounds good. Reality therapy, gosh, where do I start? I
8:04
Speaker 2: would say the biggest difference between reality therapy and cognitive
8:06
Speaker 2: behavioral therapy is that it very much focuses on the
8:09
Speaker 2: doing rather than the thinking.
8:13
Speaker 3: Straight away, I love it. Straight away, I love it.
8:15
Speaker 3: I often say that a lot of Western psychology is
8:20
Speaker 3: too much about thinking and not enough about doing.
8:23
Speaker 2: Exactly. Yeah. So I love Glasser's analogy and we use
8:26
Speaker 2: it in the program. And he had the analogy of
8:29
Speaker 2: if you take a car, like a car is a
8:31
Speaker 2: great analogy for young fellows in particular, because they can
8:34
Speaker 2: really visualize it. And one of the things he related
8:38
Speaker 2: about the car is that if you can imagine the
8:40
Speaker 2: four wheels of the car represent total behavior. And the
8:45
Speaker 2: front two wheels, it's a front wheel drive car, so
8:47
Speaker 2: you can turn the front two wheels. And the front
8:50
Speaker 2: two wheels represent thinking and doing. Because before you do,
8:55
Speaker 2: there is like an automatic thought of some, whether it
8:57
Speaker 2: be conscious or unconscious. But the doing is the focus.
9:01
Speaker 2: And when you turn the front wheels, the thinking and
9:04
Speaker 2: the physiology have to follow. So basically his focus was
9:08
Speaker 2: on turning those front two wheels. And particularly the doing
9:13
Speaker 2: wheel and the thinking sort of just went with that,
9:16
Speaker 2: if that makes sense. And then the back two wheels follow.
9:19
Speaker 2: So you don't have direct control over how you think
9:21
Speaker 2: and how you feel. But by turning your front two wheels,
9:25
Speaker 2: you have control. It's just indirectly, but you have control.
9:29
Speaker 2: And that, for me, was the biggest wow moment, you know,
9:32
Speaker 2: because when you're younger, especially when you're a teenager, you
9:35
Speaker 2: feel like life happens to you. And that was the
9:38
Speaker 2: first introduction to the idea that life happens by me
9:41
Speaker 2: or as me. And it was a great analogy. And
9:45
Speaker 2: I think Glasser was back in the 60s, but he
9:48
Speaker 2: was so far ahead of his time.
9:50
Speaker 3: It sounds quite aligned with Japanese psychology, which my wife's
9:54
Speaker 3: a practitioner of, which is called the psychology of action.
9:58
Speaker 3: And there's this beautiful term in that, arugamama, which basically
10:02
Speaker 3: translates as with things as they are, what needs to
10:05
Speaker 3: be done. So it's the acceptance of reality, but it's
10:09
Speaker 3: not passive. It's like, okay, so what do I need
10:11
Speaker 3: to do right now? So it's all about action and
10:14
Speaker 3: attention and stuff. But anyway, we digress slightly.
10:17
Speaker 2: Sorry, I was going to say, if there's no action,
10:21
Speaker 2: and this is especially with kids, and I can talk
10:23
Speaker 2: about that more in terms of the program, but if
10:25
Speaker 2: there's no action set, even a minor one, there is
10:28
Speaker 2: no progression. There's no change. It has to be action.
10:32
Speaker 3: That is my criticism of, and lots of psychotherapy is
10:36
Speaker 3: very good, but just talk therapy where people are just
10:40
Speaker 3: going in and just talking to a psychologist and getting validation.
10:45
Speaker 3: For me, it's just fucking me, me, me, me, me.
10:49
Speaker 2: And- Sorry, I was just going to say the whole
10:53
Speaker 2: concept of psychology, the whole concept of the medical model
10:57
Speaker 2: for me doesn't work because it focuses on what needs
11:01
Speaker 2: to be fixed. You're always looking for what's wrong instead
11:05
Speaker 2: of what's right. Yes. For me with kids, their superpower
11:09
Speaker 2: is their imagination and their ability to create. So that's
11:12
Speaker 2: what we focus on in Canva.
11:14
Speaker 3: Let's dive into this, actually, because it's good to have
11:17
Speaker 3: a clinical psychologist, somebody with a master's in clinical psychology
11:20
Speaker 3: to talk about this. Because in schools, look, we know
11:25
Speaker 3: now that a lot of the labels that kids have
11:29
Speaker 3: and the first initiation of they may have ADHD, they
11:33
Speaker 3: may have anxiety, they may have depression, a lot of
11:36
Speaker 3: that comes from school psychologists. And there are brilliant psychologists,
11:40
Speaker 3: there are no doubt, and I've interviewed many of them.
11:43
Speaker 3: But the thing is, they are trained to look at
11:47
Speaker 3: everything through the lens of pathology. And as soon as
11:51
Speaker 3: they come in, they're like, what label? What category is
11:54
Speaker 3: this person? And everything is about, this is broken. And
11:58
Speaker 3: the DSM-5, Dr. Francis, Alan Francis, who wrote the DSM-4,
12:05
Speaker 3: was the chair of the DSM-4, is scathing about the
12:09
Speaker 3: DSM-5 and the loosening of the criteria for conditions and
12:15
Speaker 3: the extra conditions. And now, actually, I interviewed a psychiatrist,
12:21
Speaker 3: Mark Horowitz, who has co-written the Maudsley de-prescribing guidelines. And
12:28
Speaker 3: his research, this is published in the Maudsley-Duke Prescribing Guidelines.
12:34
Speaker 3: They estimate, Mark said, that with the new DSM-5, about 80%
12:39
Speaker 3: of us meet the criteria.
12:41
Speaker 2: Fit into the criteria.
12:43
Speaker 3: Like, really? I know. Really? Are four out of five
12:47
Speaker 3: of us screwed? Or is the mental health industry minting patients, right?
12:52
Speaker 3: And then when it comes to medication, you know, they
12:56
Speaker 3: reckon only 15% of people on current meds here in
13:01
Speaker 3: Australia are have a valid reason for being on them.
13:04
Speaker 1: Now, that's not a criticism of the individual.
13:06
Speaker 3: And I don't want anybody to think that I'm criticizing
13:10
Speaker 3: anybody who's on medication. It's a criticism of the process
13:14
Speaker 3: that comes in and goes, oh, you have some sort
13:18
Speaker 3: of normal emotion or what used to be a normal
13:22
Speaker 3: human emotion. That's a pathology. You have a condition and
13:26
Speaker 3: we can treat that condition. So what, sorry, that was
13:29
Speaker 3: a bit of a rant for me, but what's your
13:31
Speaker 3: take on that?
13:33
Speaker 2: I agree with everything you said, 100%, and it's exactly
13:36
Speaker 2: why I created Counterpunch. I worked in the medical model.
13:40
Speaker 2: I saw what that was like. I worked in clinical
13:42
Speaker 2: right at the deep end. I was basically a glorified
13:45
Speaker 2: receptionist for a consultant who prescribed medication. I worked with
13:51
Speaker 2: adults in a one-to-one talk therapy environment. I worked with
13:55
Speaker 2: Headspace for 18 months. All of them, to me, were
13:59
Speaker 2: just doing my head in because they weren't treating patients.
14:02
Speaker 2: the potential that we're just focused 100% on the problem.
14:06
Speaker 2: I mean, if you have a young person who tells
14:08
Speaker 2: her story enough times, even if they weren't convinced about
14:11
Speaker 2: it at the start, by the time they've said it
14:14
Speaker 2: 50 times, they're convinced. So basically the whole premise of
14:18
Speaker 2: Carapunch is early intervention and education. So the kids realize
14:23
Speaker 2: that these things are just problems that they have the
14:26
Speaker 2: tools to deal with. And we teach them the tools
14:28
Speaker 2: in the right environment with the right peer mentor.
14:32
Speaker 3: I love it. And so what, sorry, just the other
14:35
Speaker 3: thing that I just want to throw out there as
14:37
Speaker 3: well is that there is now pretty good research that
14:40
Speaker 3: suggests or that shows that the more you talk to
14:45
Speaker 3: kids about mental health and labels, the more they start
14:49
Speaker 3: to identify with them. And so this is, it's well-intentioned
14:55
Speaker 3: interventions that, that I think have just gone too far
15:00
Speaker 3: and are creating a whole host of unintended consequences.
15:03
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I've got kids coming in at 11 and 12
15:06
Speaker 2: saying that they've got like trauma or they're using all
15:10
Speaker 2: this medical jargon that they've just been told that they're
15:13
Speaker 2: not even old enough to understand. It's just that conditioning.
15:16
Speaker 2: But on the flip side, I've got one young man
15:18
Speaker 2: who started with me when he was 10. He was
15:21
Speaker 2: diagnosed level 2 ASD. He hasn't been using NDIS for
15:25
Speaker 2: about four years now. He's fully functional, finished year 12,
15:29
Speaker 2: driving his car, studying at Philemon University, and has everything
15:32
Speaker 2: he needs in terms of the socialization and everything just
15:36
Speaker 2: by being part of the club and having learned the
15:38
Speaker 2: counterpunch method and the tools involved. It's not rocket science, Paul.
15:42
Speaker 2: That's my whole point. It doesn't need to be all this.
15:45
Speaker 2: It's just education. My funding originally in the Northern Territory
15:49
Speaker 2: when I worked up there came from suicide prevention. I mean, suicide, unfortunately,
15:57
Speaker 2: maybe 2% wherever even in the mental health system. So
16:00
Speaker 2: how can you prevent it? You can't predict it. You
16:03
Speaker 2: can educate. That's the key. It's just to educate, give
16:06
Speaker 2: kids the tools. And, you know, I had one young
16:08
Speaker 2: man when I was in Headspace and he came in
16:10
Speaker 2: thinking there was something really wrong with him because he
16:12
Speaker 2: used to lose his temper and he had a bit
16:14
Speaker 2: of anger management issues. I just told him what was
16:17
Speaker 2: happening and he understood that this is okay and it's 99%
16:21
Speaker 2: of his cohort have it and here's what you can
16:24
Speaker 2: do to deal with it without having to buy a
16:26
Speaker 2: new phone every time. He didn't have to come back
16:28
Speaker 2: again because he understood that this was it and he
16:31
Speaker 2: had the control to deal with it.
16:33
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is normal. Feeling like that is normal and
16:36
Speaker 3: here's some tools that you can use to be able
16:39
Speaker 3: to deal with it. I think the other thing, just
16:41
Speaker 3: to add into it, you touched on it there. I
16:43
Speaker 3: think that One of the other big problems in the
16:48
Speaker 3: whole world of psychology is that there are now so
16:52
Speaker 3: many people in the system who don't need to be
16:55
Speaker 3: in the system that are taking up space and resources
17:00
Speaker 3: for people who really do need it, like people who
17:03
Speaker 3: have real suicide ideation, that have schizophrenia, that have severe depression,
17:09
Speaker 3: that have severe OCD, these sorts of things. It's all
17:12
Speaker 3: that the mild people that i put under the umbrella
17:16
Speaker 3: of mld modern lifestyle disorder right that are actually taking
17:22
Speaker 3: up a lot of that space and resources for the
17:24
Speaker 3: people you actually need it and they can't get the
17:26
Speaker 3: help so there's just so many unintended consequences of pushing
17:31
Speaker 3: this stuff out too far too fast and loosening all
17:35
Speaker 3: the criteria but but anyway let's come back to counterpunch so.
17:40
Speaker 1: What did your original research show?
17:44
Speaker 3: And then talk about the stuff that happened in Darwin,
17:46
Speaker 3: and then we'll get into the guts of what it
17:48
Speaker 3: actually is.
17:49
Speaker 2: Sure. Well, when I did the program, we were just
17:52
Speaker 2: using some of the choice theory stuff, just some of
17:54
Speaker 2: the actual theory. You know, testing things around internal control,
18:00
Speaker 2: external control. choosing stuff like that. So we only had
18:04
Speaker 2: a classroom. So the kids had the desks in front
18:07
Speaker 2: of them and stuff. And I decided to introduce one
18:09
Speaker 2: physical component, which was just standing up and doing a kiai,
18:12
Speaker 2: you know, because that was literally all the space we had.
18:14
Speaker 2: So they stood up and they punched. And the idea was,
18:17
Speaker 2: you know, yell from the diaphragm and wake up the
18:21
Speaker 2: class at the end of the corridor sort of thing.
18:23
Speaker 2: And they absolutely loved that. And then we did some stuff.
18:26
Speaker 2: The other thing that I remember now, it's quite a
18:28
Speaker 2: few years ago, but was that One of the kids
18:32
Speaker 2: fed back that I now see that other kids see
18:34
Speaker 2: things differently to me because they were going from that
18:37
Speaker 2: concrete to abstract thinking. So he realized that the kid
18:40
Speaker 2: wasn't arguing with him about it being blue just to
18:42
Speaker 2: argue with him that it was blue, but he was
18:44
Speaker 2: actually seeing it as purple, for example. So the physical
18:49
Speaker 2: component and just that idea of experiential learning and sharing
18:54
Speaker 2: and working in a group environment and learning from each
18:57
Speaker 2: other and then having other people feed to them having
19:00
Speaker 2: had that experience, like a mentoring kind of system, fed
19:05
Speaker 2: into it. And then the program evolved more when I
19:09
Speaker 2: went up to Darwin. The NTG gave me an opportunity
19:13
Speaker 2: to pilot the program. And we had a number of
19:15
Speaker 2: schools come in. We sort of created basically a curriculum
19:19
Speaker 2: that I made up as I went along, I'll be
19:20
Speaker 2: perfectly honest. But we got some massive results from it,
19:24
Speaker 2: from a guy who did a master's on it, Andrew,
19:26
Speaker 2: Andrew Boddick, did a... a master's research on it, funded
19:30
Speaker 2: by the Menzies School of Health. And some of the
19:32
Speaker 2: biggest sort of feedback from that was we needed to
19:35
Speaker 2: create a replicable curriculum, which makes lots of sense, obviously.
19:38
Speaker 2: And since then, we've done that. The government, in their wisdom,
19:41
Speaker 2: decided not to continue the funding, which was fine because
19:44
Speaker 2: Coop had been transferred to SA anyway. So I was
19:46
Speaker 2: moving down here. There was a bit of kerfuffle up
19:49
Speaker 2: there with some funding gone missing and blah, blah, blah,
19:51
Speaker 2: which had nothing to do in the end with Counterpunch.
19:54
Speaker 2: But for some reason, it was kind of intimated that
19:57
Speaker 2: it had something to do with Counterpunch, which had... It
20:00
Speaker 2: since wasn't nothing that was shown to be true. But anyway,
20:05
Speaker 2: the whole lesson from that was grateful to the Northern
20:08
Speaker 2: Territory government for giving me the opportunity to pilot it,
20:11
Speaker 2: but time to do this as an entrepreneurial venture, which
20:14
Speaker 2: is what I did when I came down to South Australia.
20:17
Speaker 2: Set up Counterpunch PTY, started just running programs with kids.
20:21
Speaker 2: That young man I mentioned was one of our first
20:23
Speaker 2: kids that came through the program. So basically for the last,
20:27
Speaker 2: probably since 2017, it's been running in its current format,
20:32
Speaker 2: had a bit of a break with COVID, but we
20:34
Speaker 2: still ran it. But because, you know, we just had
20:36
Speaker 2: to do it more like obviously as a one-to-one rather
20:39
Speaker 2: than a group at that time. Since refined the curriculum,
20:43
Speaker 2: and then one of the barriers I discovered was just,
20:45
Speaker 2: you can't have everybody come here to the Adelaide Hills
20:48
Speaker 2: to do the training. So my next, you know, I
20:52
Speaker 2: resisted that for a long time because I was not
20:54
Speaker 2: a technology focused, but yay, we finally finished and we've
20:58
Speaker 2: got the whole thing online now under a learning management
21:01
Speaker 2: system that we can just teach, support, and then use
21:05
Speaker 2: Zoom calls as our sort of inner circle kind of
21:08
Speaker 2: round table. get togethers and learn from each other. So
21:11
Speaker 2: that was kind of, to me, the biggest barrier. And
21:13
Speaker 2: now I'm sort of on a mission to get it
21:16
Speaker 2: out there. We've got all the feedback. I mean, if
21:18
Speaker 2: you check out the website, you'll hear from parents, facilitators, kids.
21:22
Speaker 2: We know it worked. And since we, sorry to finish.
21:26
Speaker 3: No, you finish and then I'll ask a question, sorry.
21:28
Speaker 2: I was just going to say like putting it online
21:31
Speaker 2: is basically expanded it another time again to kind of
21:35
Speaker 2: counterpunch 2.0 because when you create modules, you've got to
21:38
Speaker 2: build on the next module. And we now have every
21:40
Speaker 2: psychology module loves a good Venn diagram. So we created
21:44
Speaker 2: a good Venn diagram. So it's got a model. And
21:46
Speaker 2: we actually have an NDIS company on board now. Together
21:49
Speaker 2: we can international currently rolling out 10 groups worldwide. with
21:52
Speaker 2: their NDIS clients. Half of my clients are NDIS, like ASD,
21:56
Speaker 2: but my other facilitators are just running it as part
22:00
Speaker 2: of their Combat Club offering.
22:02
Speaker 3: And so what is the experience for the kids that
22:06
Speaker 3: go into a kind of project?
22:08
Speaker 1: Where is it taught, and what is the journey that
22:11
Speaker 1: they go on?
22:13
Speaker 2: Okay, so the first thing we do is obviously talk
22:15
Speaker 2: to the parent. They're the people who book it. We
22:18
Speaker 2: then have an induction where I kind of introduce myself
22:21
Speaker 2: to the young person and then they get a practical
22:24
Speaker 2: taster from Jaylen because the program is actually run in
22:27
Speaker 2: a gym. So we have a boxing gym, basically. They
22:30
Speaker 2: don't have boxing as contact with each other, but they
22:34
Speaker 2: learn the progression, like the actual doing is progressing through
22:38
Speaker 2: boxing and getting fit, setting goals for themselves. So it's
22:42
Speaker 2: a three-phase program. So each rollout is about 24 weeks,
22:46
Speaker 2: 24 sessions. The levels go from one, level two. We
22:51
Speaker 2: have a shadow mentoring mentor, senior mentor, junior facilitator, and facilitator.
22:55
Speaker 2: So we have levels that go right through. We can
22:57
Speaker 2: support right through high school, although they're starting now in
23:01
Speaker 2: sort of year five, six, so primary school as well.
23:04
Speaker 2: The first phase is all about norming and forming and
23:07
Speaker 2: just teaching them the physical components, the coupling exercises, making
23:11
Speaker 2: sure it's fun. And then we introduce the concept of
23:14
Speaker 2: goal setting as our first kind of tool. We use vSmart,
23:18
Speaker 2: I like to call them very smart goals as opposed
23:21
Speaker 2: to just smart, but The idea is values linking and
23:24
Speaker 2: looking at what is true.
23:26
Speaker 3: Oh, I like it.
23:27
Speaker 1: You brought values into smart goal setting.
23:29
Speaker 2: I like that.
23:30
Speaker 3: Yeah, cool.
23:31
Speaker 2: Smart on its own isn't going to work unless it's
23:33
Speaker 2: in the value world, as you know. So we link
23:36
Speaker 2: it with that. So we link it back to what
23:38
Speaker 2: they want to achieve. And then we bring it back
23:41
Speaker 2: to like basic physical thing like push-ups or squat jumps or,
23:45
Speaker 2: you know, any exercise they can do that they can
23:48
Speaker 2: link to improving their their value goal, which could be
23:52
Speaker 2: just another sport, could be cricket, could be boxing, could
23:55
Speaker 2: be rugby, basketball, whatever, or it could be just to
23:57
Speaker 2: get fit and feel good, but just trying to get
24:00
Speaker 2: them to work through their true choice. You know, for example,
24:03
Speaker 2: you get kids playing football and you realize when you
24:05
Speaker 2: go through it a few times, because we do this
24:07
Speaker 2: every phase, not just once, you realize that they're playing
24:11
Speaker 2: football because that's what dad played and it's kind of
24:13
Speaker 2: like a conditioning and it's not really what they want, right?
24:16
Speaker 2: I've got one particular young man at the moment and
24:18
Speaker 2: he's very high level intellectual ASD, but he just absolutely
24:23
Speaker 2: turns out to be surprisingly good at boxing, which was
24:28
Speaker 2: something like his whole life is screens. He would never
24:30
Speaker 2: consider doing boxing, but he's just really good at being coachable.
24:35
Speaker 2: And turns out he has the spark in him to
24:37
Speaker 2: box as well. So it's an interesting progression. Like the
24:42
Speaker 2: kids are learning about themselves. Because we've been running it,
24:45
Speaker 2: the first cohort of kids that go through come back
24:48
Speaker 2: and become the mentors. So the progression feeds back into itself.
24:53
Speaker 2: So the three phases are to connect very much the
24:57
Speaker 2: head and body as you talk about yourself, Paul. So
24:59
Speaker 2: just using basic coupling exercise and things like that, but
25:02
Speaker 2: getting them to at least have some awareness about basic
25:06
Speaker 2: physiology changes to link to emotions and understand that, you know,
25:11
Speaker 2: they can tune into when the heart goes up or they're,
25:14
Speaker 2: They get red in the face, things like that. So
25:16
Speaker 2: they start linking an activity to a physical response and
25:21
Speaker 2: then start to kind of get a bit more in-depth
25:23
Speaker 2: understanding of how it feels like when they're feeling certain emotions.
25:28
Speaker 2: And then the second phase is very much about relating that,
25:32
Speaker 2: how they feel and how to relate to the environment
25:35
Speaker 2: around them and other people. You know, like a lot
25:39
Speaker 2: of kids would have some social relationship issues that would
25:42
Speaker 2: have lack understanding about storytelling and personal space, things like that.
25:48
Speaker 2: So the mentors teach them that. And then the third
25:51
Speaker 2: phase is leadership. So basically stepping into their own confidence
25:55
Speaker 2: and leadership ability, which is the mentoring path. And basically
26:00
Speaker 2: it feeds back into themselves. So the young people who
26:03
Speaker 2: do the program end up being the people that deliver
26:05
Speaker 2: the program. So it's very much a substitution.
26:08
Speaker 3: I really like that because it's that progression that's quite
26:11
Speaker 3: similar to martial arts in the belt system.
26:14
Speaker 2: Exactly.
26:14
Speaker 3: When my kids were four and eight years old, we
26:19
Speaker 3: sat them down and said, right, house rules, you need
26:22
Speaker 3: to do a team sport and a martial art. And
26:25
Speaker 3: I don't care what it is. Our job is to
26:27
Speaker 3: let you experience them. But you've got to do a
26:29
Speaker 3: team sport and martial art. And I said to them,
26:31
Speaker 3: you can stop if you want, but you need to
26:33
Speaker 3: find somewhere else to live. because I think team sports
26:38
Speaker 3: and martial arts, I think have independent overlapping benefits, right?
26:45
Speaker 3: And they both just graduated towards karate and soccer. But
26:49
Speaker 3: I'll tell you when we knew, I mean, we knew
26:52
Speaker 3: all along, but when we knew that this was just
26:55
Speaker 3: so the right thing to do is when Keira, my daughter,
26:58
Speaker 3: who's now at uni, when she was in year 12,
27:02
Speaker 3: with the exams, going in for the exams and all
27:05
Speaker 3: of our friends were nervous wrecks and they're all going, oh,
27:08
Speaker 3: I'm anxious, I'm anxious. And they said, Kira, are you
27:10
Speaker 3: not anxious? And Kira's like, nobody's trying to kick me
27:13
Speaker 3: in the face. Why would I be anxious?
27:15
Speaker 1: I was like, boom, right?
27:18
Speaker 3: Because I think part of that is like teaching them that,
27:24
Speaker 3: you know, going through that arousal, that psychological arousal, which
27:29
Speaker 3: is often linked to the physical, but then teaching them
27:32
Speaker 3: the control, the emotional regulation, these sorts of things, and
27:35
Speaker 3: understanding that I can feel like that in my body
27:39
Speaker 3: and it's not an absolute crisis. I mean, I think
27:41
Speaker 3: that's one of the benefits.
27:43
Speaker 2: It's where the good stuff happens, though. Like if you
27:45
Speaker 2: don't allow kids to get out of their comfort zone,
27:48
Speaker 2: they don't grow. And it's levels, too. You know, it's
27:52
Speaker 2: fine maybe to jump into a team, but like some
27:55
Speaker 2: of the kids that I might have wouldn't be ready
27:57
Speaker 2: for a team environment, but they're getting a team environment
28:00
Speaker 2: in the group. Yes. I'm not responsible for the other
28:02
Speaker 2: members of the team.
28:04
Speaker 3: No, I get it. I totally get it.
28:07
Speaker 1: And that thing, I mean, I think we are both converts.
28:11
Speaker 3: To this, that real resilience is built through experiential learning,
28:19
Speaker 3: not read from a frigging book. And real resilience doesn't
28:22
Speaker 3: come from opting out.
28:24
Speaker 2: 100% experiential learning. And that's what the difference is, I believe,
28:30
Speaker 2: with Counterpunch is because kids, especially, they don't want to talk.
28:35
Speaker 2: Like verbal communication is like their third form of communication.
28:40
Speaker 2: As you know, the tone of voice and body language
28:42
Speaker 2: are way more of a communication tool than actual words.
28:47
Speaker 2: I mean, even boys, like they have so little vocabulary
28:49
Speaker 2: and they've got literally no emotional vocabulary. So For them
28:54
Speaker 2: to be able to express themselves, it's to go in
28:56
Speaker 2: and play tag and punch a bag and, you know,
28:59
Speaker 2: challenge themselves and try and do a higher number of
29:02
Speaker 2: reps in their push-up max and do like a seven
29:05
Speaker 2: by seven to learn about chunking and that sort of thing.
29:08
Speaker 2: And then chat the other lads in the group and
29:11
Speaker 2: get their stories from the other lads and then go,
29:13
Speaker 2: so that happened to them as well. So it's not
29:16
Speaker 2: just me. Yeah. For me, it's all about isolation. When
29:19
Speaker 2: you're a teenager, you just feel so isolated and you
29:22
Speaker 2: feel like nobody else thinks or feels the same way
29:25
Speaker 2: as you. And that was really why I created the program.
29:28
Speaker 2: Number one, because the medical model doesn't work. But number two,
29:31
Speaker 2: because I remember what it was like to be a
29:33
Speaker 2: teenager and absolutely sucked. It's the phase of your life
29:36
Speaker 2: where you have the least amount of control and often
29:39
Speaker 2: just having something like you said, having a hobby, but
29:43
Speaker 2: having something, having a safe place to go, having people
29:46
Speaker 2: that just accept you as you are and doing something
29:49
Speaker 2: that's fun that you actually love to do and look
29:51
Speaker 2: forward to every week in itself is enough experience for
29:56
Speaker 2: you to deal with life. Because, you know, 75% of
30:00
Speaker 2: diagnoses start between 12 and 25.
30:02
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. And I think the other thing, Mercedes, is
30:07
Speaker 3: doing something, is that sense of mastery, of doing something
30:12
Speaker 3: and getting better at it, which builds self-efficacy and self-confidence,
30:16
Speaker 3: which we both know is absolutely critical, right? That confidence
30:21
Speaker 3: comes internally, right? And, you know, for me, this is
30:26
Speaker 3: hugely important to get kids to do something that they
30:30
Speaker 3: can continue to build their skill base on and build
30:34
Speaker 3: their self-efficacy. And I also want to touch on the
30:37
Speaker 3: thing you mentioned about that connection. I just read, I'm
30:40
Speaker 3: just going to try and get a psychologist on. I
30:42
Speaker 3: just read her research about university well-being programs. And the
30:48
Speaker 3: biggest impact by far of any well-being program in the
30:53
Speaker 3: university is things that involve connection with others. because the
30:58
Speaker 3: human brain is a social organ, right? And loneliness, who's
31:03
Speaker 3: a Hunster Lord, got a double-barreled name, I can't remember
31:06
Speaker 3: their surname, but basically showed that loneliness is as bad
31:11
Speaker 3: for your health as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. And
31:13
Speaker 3: the Surgeon General just came out and said it's an epidemic,
31:16
Speaker 3: the U.S. Surgeon General. So talk to us a little
31:20
Speaker 3: bit more about the connection piece.
31:24
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, well, basically it's a group program. So the
31:28
Speaker 2: whole idea is that they're coming in. Sometimes there's a
31:31
Speaker 2: bit of a transition, like we do a one-to-one for
31:33
Speaker 2: a little bit. You know, we might have a couple
31:35
Speaker 2: of kids. The program is not targeting kids that have diagnosis.
31:38
Speaker 2: I should make that clear. So a lot of the
31:40
Speaker 2: kids that are coming in are just kids that are
31:42
Speaker 2: having the normal trials and tribulations of adolescence. As one
31:46
Speaker 2: parent described it, it's like having an extra parent that
31:50
Speaker 2: gives them that extra support and learning that I can't
31:52
Speaker 2: teach them.
31:53
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's not their parent.
31:55
Speaker 1: And I think that's really important, right?
31:58
Speaker 3: And there's so much research on that with people, particularly
32:01
Speaker 3: if they're struggling, if they have one adult in their
32:05
Speaker 3: lives that is a mentor, That can really help them,
32:08
Speaker 3: even if they don't have their own parents. Having an adult,
32:12
Speaker 3: a mentor adult is critical.
32:14
Speaker 2: Even more so, I would say a mentor adolescent is
32:17
Speaker 2: even more important.
32:18
Speaker 3: You just took the word out of my mouth.
32:21
Speaker 1: Because there's a bit more relatedness there, right? And a
32:24
Speaker 1: bit more aspiration, I think.
32:26
Speaker 2: At that stage of development, as you know, adolescents will
32:29
Speaker 2: listen to other adolescents before they even look at an athlete.
32:32
Speaker 2: It's just the way it is.
32:33
Speaker 3: I got a 16-year-old boy. He's right there.
32:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, 100%. So if you've got another like 18-year-old or
32:40
Speaker 2: as in Jay's case, a 22-year-old, they're going to be
32:43
Speaker 2: the person they listen to.
32:45
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I think that's hugely important.
32:48
Speaker 4: And so what do you think that sport and particularly
32:50
Speaker 4: combat sports, what does it bring to kids in terms
32:55
Speaker 4: of life skills that talk therapy just can't bring?
32:59
Speaker 2: Look, I can tell you literally how I decided on
33:03
Speaker 2: that and how I know that. I've been coaching combat
33:04
Speaker 2: sport for 43 years, Paul. So first of all, it's
33:07
Speaker 2: what I know best. And second of all, it took
33:09
Speaker 2: me way too long to come back around to what
33:11
Speaker 2: I know best. I was trying to target different cohorts
33:14
Speaker 2: that weren't really, you know, open to that. But like
33:18
Speaker 2: my first encounter with the power of combat sport was
33:20
Speaker 2: when I was working as a counselor in schools. So
33:24
Speaker 2: I used to travel around to schools in Ireland and
33:26
Speaker 2: go in and I think we used to have the
33:28
Speaker 2: music room stuffed with the pianos and musical instruments as
33:32
Speaker 2: our office. And the kid you'd get would be the
33:35
Speaker 2: one that the teacher, you'd hear the teacher screaming out
33:38
Speaker 2: of the other end of the corridor and they'd see
33:40
Speaker 2: the door bang and they'd be walking down the corridor
33:42
Speaker 2: to you because it was like, a lot of my classrooms,
33:45
Speaker 2: you're supposed to be able to, you know, build a
33:47
Speaker 2: relationship and talk to that kid after getting kicked out
33:50
Speaker 2: of the classroom in what is a totally power over
33:52
Speaker 2: type environment anyway, where kids are just 100% on the defensive.
33:56
Speaker 2: And I'm like, I started talking to him because he
33:59
Speaker 2: was wearing a Man United shirt, which, you know, technically
34:01
Speaker 2: wasn't part of his uniform, I would imagine. But we
34:04
Speaker 2: were just chatting about the Champions League that week and stuff.
34:06
Speaker 2: So I actually got like, I think, three words out
34:09
Speaker 2: of him, which was quite impressive. And I was like,
34:12
Speaker 2: all right, you know what I'm going to do? I'm
34:13
Speaker 2: going to bring a set of Focus Mads and a
34:14
Speaker 2: pair of gloves and we're going to hit some pads.
34:17
Speaker 2: And first of all, he was almost like, am I
34:19
Speaker 2: allowed to hit the pad? And as soon as he
34:22
Speaker 2: started punching the pads and I was holding the pads,
34:25
Speaker 2: it put us on the level playing field. So he
34:28
Speaker 2: was doing something, not looking at me, looking at the pad.
34:32
Speaker 2: He was doing something. I was holding the pad. And
34:34
Speaker 2: we just started talking. And it was literally like the
34:37
Speaker 2: party of the Red Sea. Like his whole defense mechanism
34:40
Speaker 2: just broke down. And he just was having fun and
34:44
Speaker 2: he's smiling and everything. we were chatting and we were connecting.
34:48
Speaker 2: So it's like, it was just an awesome connection tool.
34:50
Speaker 2: You know, you could spend weeks sitting down, talk therapy,
34:53
Speaker 2: which doesn't work for teens anyway. Um, and I was
34:56
Speaker 2: like this, you know, I put that in the back
34:58
Speaker 2: burner and that's why I kind of use that in
35:01
Speaker 2: my research when I went to Tasmania. Um, I think
35:05
Speaker 2: the idea of actually punching something physically is very, very powerful. Like,
35:09
Speaker 2: it just has that impact on the physiology that kind
35:13
Speaker 2: of almost shocks. I mean, like, I've never met a
35:15
Speaker 2: kid yet who didn't want to punch something, you know? Yeah.
35:19
Speaker 2: I just love it. It's a great sort of carrot. Plus,
35:24
Speaker 2: Now in the program, we have an event called Bachelor
35:26
Speaker 2: in the Hills. We've done four, so the next one's
35:28
Speaker 2: Bachelor in the Hills 5. So we have kids that,
35:31
Speaker 2: we have a parallel boxing club, which is not-for-profit. That's,
35:35
Speaker 2: you know, some of the kids can go into. A
35:36
Speaker 2: lot of our mentors compete as well. But we give
35:39
Speaker 2: our kids that are, let's say not going to be
35:43
Speaker 2: world champions, the opportunity to jump in just for the
35:46
Speaker 2: learning of it, just for that whole concept of the
35:48
Speaker 2: ring is your world and your opponent is all your
35:50
Speaker 2: obstacles and you face and it depends on you. So
35:54
Speaker 2: we make sure I match them well. I often referee
35:57
Speaker 2: just to make sure there's no like mismatch. They, you know,
36:01
Speaker 2: even if win, lose or draw, they just go like, oh,
36:03
Speaker 2: that was so awesome. When can I do it again?
36:06
Speaker 2: You know? So it's just, and it gives them that
36:09
Speaker 2: V-Smart goal. So they might start two years out and
36:12
Speaker 2: their V-Smart goal is to jump in the ring in
36:14
Speaker 2: June of the following year and compete in, in Bass
36:17
Speaker 2: on the Hills. But, Look, I would say it's a
36:20
Speaker 2: movement medium. It doesn't have to be boxing. But as
36:24
Speaker 2: you know, most sports use boxing anyway as an off-season
36:27
Speaker 2: type training. So it's not alien to AFL or, you know,
36:32
Speaker 2: even Gaelic football. They do boxing. You know what I mean?
36:35
Speaker 2: There's loads of benefits because it has an equal demand
36:40
Speaker 2: on all your components of fitness. It certainly pushes through
36:43
Speaker 2: the comfort zone. It has so many... And the other
36:47
Speaker 2: thing is, of course, it's like layer upon layer upon layer.
36:49
Speaker 2: You never know it all. So if you're doing it
36:51
Speaker 2: for 10 years, you're still learning. So if you're doing
36:54
Speaker 2: it for 43 years, you're still learning, you know. So
36:57
Speaker 2: it's got all the benefits. Plus you can do it
37:00
Speaker 2: in a small boxing club environment as opposed to needing
37:04
Speaker 2: a full oval. That was one of the challenges when
37:07
Speaker 2: I approached the GA in Ireland was the fact that
37:09
Speaker 2: they had so many players. How do you just do
37:12
Speaker 2: a group of 10, which... You can, you know, of
37:15
Speaker 2: course you can. But it's like for me, I see counterpunch.
37:20
Speaker 2: Like imagine if it was in junior programs for all
37:22
Speaker 2: of the major organizations. You know, that lifestyle component of
37:27
Speaker 2: the jigsaw puzzle, as we know, is the one that
37:29
Speaker 2: often falls short for a lot of these athletes when
37:31
Speaker 2: they're suddenly famous and suddenly earning crazy money. Just learning
37:36
Speaker 2: these skills early on. would have such an impact both
37:40
Speaker 2: on their actual athletic performance, but obviously on their life
37:43
Speaker 2: performance as well.
37:45
Speaker 3: I want to come back to you, but you just
37:47
Speaker 3: used the term a movement medium, right? So boxing is
37:51
Speaker 3: a movement medium. And that learning, that experiential learning, I'll
37:55
Speaker 3: give you an example. So we've been running a pilot
37:58
Speaker 3: hardiness program in school in Warrnambool. And part of the learning,
38:02
Speaker 3: we use that movement medium. So they do a beep
38:05
Speaker 3: test at the start. They do push-ups. They do a
38:07
Speaker 3: wall sit. They do hand in ice water and see
38:12
Speaker 3: how long they can go. And then we teach them
38:14
Speaker 3: some psychology. So we'll teach them the big four, which
38:18
Speaker 3: is around when you're struggling with something, goal setting, self-talk,
38:24
Speaker 3: mental imagery, arousal control, right? Once they've learned that, they
38:28
Speaker 3: redo the assessments, but using the big four. Setting themselves
38:33
Speaker 3: a goal, right? Controlling, sorting out their self-talk, imagining what
38:37
Speaker 3: an experience is like, and then arousal control, using their
38:40
Speaker 3: breathing when they're through it. And is that an impact?
38:45
Speaker 3: Because they see how much they improve just by applying
38:50
Speaker 3: the big four. And then they're like, ah, this shit works, right?
38:54
Speaker 3: But I think that bringing that embodied learning, I think
38:59
Speaker 3: is hugely important, isn't it?
39:01
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, what you described is literally what we
39:05
Speaker 2: do with Cannon Punch, but we do it probably over
39:07
Speaker 2: a longer period and we probably incorporate a few more tools.
39:12
Speaker 2: Like we've got a toolbox, maybe 20 different tools, but it's,
39:16
Speaker 2: I think the period of time and the exposure to
39:19
Speaker 2: that environment for that period of time is important as well,
39:22
Speaker 2: because You know, sometimes it'll take two or three weeks,
39:25
Speaker 2: two or three sessions for a kid to just relax
39:29
Speaker 2: and settle into the environment. You know, they'll be in
39:31
Speaker 2: defense mode for a little while. You pair them up
39:33
Speaker 2: with a mentor and you just get them involved.
39:35
Speaker 3: And it's just so.
39:37
Speaker 2: I mean, that stage of development is so much fun
39:39
Speaker 2: to watch. Jalen and I are presenting at the Glasser
39:42
Speaker 2: International Conference in the Gold Coast in a couple of weeks.
39:46
Speaker 2: And one of the things he's presenting and basically just
39:49
Speaker 2: demonstrating the progression as a leader because he's going to
39:52
Speaker 2: be co-presenting. But we were looking at pictures and we've
39:55
Speaker 2: got so many pictures of when he started at 13,
39:58
Speaker 2: 14 and looking at him now, like, you know, eight
40:00
Speaker 2: years later. And it's just, that's the story of Counterpunch.
40:05
Speaker 2: That's the power of Counterpunch. Like that's an example. And
40:07
Speaker 2: there's other kids along with him that are in the
40:09
Speaker 2: pictures that have been there for that long as well,
40:11
Speaker 2: you know.
40:12
Speaker 3: Yeah, it just reminded me. There's a guy I know
40:16
Speaker 3: called Ron Smith. He's an ex-boxer and runner. And I
40:20
Speaker 3: used to do some boxing training with him. And my
40:21
Speaker 3: kids went there and did a kid's class. And he
40:24
Speaker 3: was brilliant because he had the kids... And he had
40:27
Speaker 3: them learning the boxing skills, but he would have lots
40:30
Speaker 3: of little chats, life chats with them. And there were
40:33
Speaker 3: inspirational quotes all around. And then some of the kids
40:36
Speaker 3: would then instruct the other kids and they'd build up
40:39
Speaker 3: and then he'd bring some of them on. So it
40:40
Speaker 3: was a sort of similar program, but just in his
40:42
Speaker 3: little backyard gym. And it was brilliant, right?
40:46
Speaker 2: That's the power of boxing. Sorry to interrupt, but that's
40:48
Speaker 2: the power of boxing, Paul. And the beauty of this
40:51
Speaker 2: program is that There's so many wonderful coaches out there
40:54
Speaker 2: who don't actually realize their own value and don't actually
40:58
Speaker 2: put a price on their value. I don't know whether
41:01
Speaker 2: it's a self-worth issue or whatever, but they feel like
41:03
Speaker 2: they need to volunteer. So the program isn't to teach boxing.
41:07
Speaker 2: It's to use the boxing as a medium, but to
41:10
Speaker 2: show coaches how to introduce these tools and actually make
41:15
Speaker 2: that progression in a 24-week session. Whereas if you have
41:18
Speaker 2: a kid that's working boxing and you know, fighting and
41:21
Speaker 2: pairing up with a coach, that relationship is so huge.
41:24
Speaker 2: But not every kid is going to compete. Not every
41:27
Speaker 2: kid's going to be a champion. There's going to be 90%
41:29
Speaker 2: of your gym that'll never fight. And they can still
41:32
Speaker 2: have the same benefit.
41:33
Speaker 3: Yeah, the goal is not for fighting. So just on
41:36
Speaker 3: that subject, for a parent who might be listening to
41:39
Speaker 3: this but thinks combat sports, oh.
41:42
Speaker 1: I wouldn't want my kid to do that because it's violence, right?
41:44
Speaker 1: I get that a lot.
41:45
Speaker 3: Like, why would you have your kids do combat sports, right?
41:48
Speaker 3: Give me your take, particularly as a psychologist, about why
41:53
Speaker 3: combat sports in general are really good for kids, particularly adolescents,
41:59
Speaker 3: and whether you think it's more appropriate for boys or girls.
42:02
Speaker 1: And then why boxing specifically? Well, First of all, I
42:07
Speaker 1: would ask.
42:08
Speaker 2: Them what's their perspective of combat sport. And 99% of
42:11
Speaker 2: them will tell you professional boxing or professional MMA. They've
42:15
Speaker 2: been watching that and they've seen that.
42:16
Speaker 3: And it's just violent.
42:18
Speaker 2: And all of that. I would make the distinction that
42:21
Speaker 2: amateur boxing and amateur martial arts are completely different sports,
42:25
Speaker 2: completely different focus. The referee is there to protect the boxer,
42:29
Speaker 2: not make a fight. It's not about money. It's about progression.
42:35
Speaker 2: I think it's the greatest analogy that we have as
42:39
Speaker 2: a journey in life is martial arts because it's like
42:42
Speaker 2: a succinct life story, but within a martial arts, like
42:45
Speaker 2: you could relate the whole of your life to preparation
42:48
Speaker 2: for one fight. Most of the coaches, well, all of
42:51
Speaker 2: the coaches that I know that are involved in amateur
42:53
Speaker 2: boxing and amateur martial arts, because I did martial arts
42:56
Speaker 2: for a long time as well, they're interested in the
43:00
Speaker 2: person behind the athlete. not just the result of the fight.
43:06
Speaker 2: So I think that, I guess the way I would
43:09
Speaker 2: have described it from a marketing point of view as
43:11
Speaker 2: well for actually combat coaches is that you're a parent,
43:15
Speaker 2: you're looking for some help. Your child doesn't necessarily need
43:18
Speaker 2: to go and see a psych. It's not that serious.
43:21
Speaker 2: But you need some help and you don't know where
43:23
Speaker 2: to go. You would never think of martial arts because
43:26
Speaker 2: it just wouldn't occur to you. But if you have
43:28
Speaker 2: a program like Carapunch running in a martial arts club,
43:31
Speaker 2: you're getting everything that they will get in terms of
43:35
Speaker 2: that psychological training and life skills and resilience and emotional
43:40
Speaker 2: regulation and all of that stuff in a martial arts
43:44
Speaker 2: gym instead of waiting to need to go to a
43:48
Speaker 2: psychologist who will do talk therapy, which may or may
43:51
Speaker 2: not work and will definitely cost you at least five
43:54
Speaker 2: times that price. So it's a no-brainer. Like if you
43:59
Speaker 2: really want some go and look at the parent testimonials
44:03
Speaker 2: on the Counterpunch website because that's the best thing to
44:06
Speaker 2: listen to is other parents who've actually done that, you know?
44:10
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that martial arts in general, I think
44:14
Speaker 3: for kids are so, so useful. Like, I mean, both
44:17
Speaker 3: of my kids, their teachers have always said they are
44:20
Speaker 3: so respectful. And I tell you what it comes from.
44:22
Speaker 3: It comes from the dojo. It comes from doing karate
44:25
Speaker 3: and both of them doing boxing with Ron. And that
44:28
Speaker 3: respect for Sensei and respect for other people. Pretty much
44:33
Speaker 3: all martial arts are very much respect-driven, right?
44:39
Speaker 2: Boxing as well. I mean, I've had people, like we've
44:43
Speaker 2: done road trips here. I went up to Waiala one time.
44:45
Speaker 2: I had a tournament, came back, and boys stopped off
44:48
Speaker 2: at a pie place. And I actually got a text
44:52
Speaker 2: message from somebody else who's involved in the boxing group.
44:56
Speaker 2: just saying, look, I just wanted to text you and
44:58
Speaker 2: compliment you on how awesome young men they are and
45:02
Speaker 2: how well behaved and how mannerly they were when I
45:04
Speaker 2: met them at the lunchtime. You know, like, and I
45:07
Speaker 2: get that all the time because if you look at
45:09
Speaker 2: a boxing, amateur boxing match, like the respect that each
45:12
Speaker 2: one has for the other is phenomenal. Whereas if you
45:16
Speaker 2: look at football, not always the case, you know. It's very,
45:22
Speaker 2: very special because like, getting in the ring is the
45:26
Speaker 2: challenge and the test is your opponent, but the fact
45:30
Speaker 2: that you both got in there is what earns the respect.
45:33
Speaker 3: I think the big test is getting through the ropes.
45:36
Speaker 3: That's the big one.
45:37
Speaker 2: Getting in there.
45:38
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. Being in the arena I think is hugely important. So, Mercedes,
45:44
Speaker 3: this has been awesome. Where do people go to find
45:47
Speaker 3: out more about it? Say they're a parent or they're
45:52
Speaker 3: a school teacher that wants all our Or maybe they're
45:54
Speaker 3: a coach or maybe like I know so many personal
45:57
Speaker 3: trainers who are skilled in pad work that this could
46:03
Speaker 3: be a little sideline for them.
46:05
Speaker 2: Absolutely. And you don't even have to be skilled in
46:08
Speaker 2: pad work because it's a group program, like it's eight
46:11
Speaker 2: to 10. So from a PT perspective, it's not like
46:16
Speaker 2: one-to-one training. it's much more economical with your time because
46:19
Speaker 2: you can do eight or 10 in that one hour session.
46:23
Speaker 2: Probably best to explain that this program is like, I've
46:27
Speaker 2: got schools about to roll out. I've got an NDIS
46:30
Speaker 2: company who are running it. I've got gyms who run
46:33
Speaker 2: it and, you know, PTs that work in gyms who
46:36
Speaker 2: could run it. So basically it's for anybody who works
46:40
Speaker 2: in a youth facing environment who basically wants to, You
46:44
Speaker 2: might already work with youth and you're a bit frustrated
46:48
Speaker 2: with the programs that you're already running and the impact
46:50
Speaker 2: that they're actually having in reality. Is it just like
46:53
Speaker 2: a theory that you deliver and then it's done? Are
46:55
Speaker 2: you looking for like an embedded system that is replicable,
47:00
Speaker 2: that feeds back into itself? So... Basically, we're looking to
47:07
Speaker 2: get the program out to as many young people as possible.
47:11
Speaker 2: My idea is that we have like roundtable hubs. So
47:15
Speaker 2: you have community hubs where there are two or three
47:17
Speaker 2: facilitators in an area and they refer to each other
47:20
Speaker 2: and support each other. And they get supported by me
47:23
Speaker 2: and our other experienced facilitators on a fortnightly basis as well.
47:27
Speaker 2: So you're basically getting an inner circle experience for a
47:30
Speaker 2: very not inner circle community. cost. Um, so yeah, I mean,
47:35
Speaker 2: people can get in touch with me, uh, through the website, um,
47:39
Speaker 2: which is counterpunch.com.au. Our Facebook is Counterpunch Australia. Um, I think, um,
47:47
Speaker 2: Instagram is counterpunch underscore life. We also have a YouTube channel,
47:52
Speaker 2: my personal Mercedes Taft Cooper on LinkedIn, but yeah, I'd
47:55
Speaker 2: love to hear from anybody who's Basically, we use the
47:59
Speaker 2: four Ps as our criteria, Paul. So basically, the people
48:04
Speaker 2: are you, the ones that actually want to work with
48:06
Speaker 2: young people and make a serious difference. They have a
48:09
Speaker 2: place in which to host it. They also have the
48:12
Speaker 2: people in front of them. They already have a network
48:14
Speaker 2: of young people they're already working for and a platform
48:16
Speaker 2: that they'd like to include Counterpunch in, whether it be
48:20
Speaker 2: another aspect of their business or just to improve the
48:23
Speaker 2: business that they already have.
48:25
Speaker 3: Very cool. That is awesome. This has been great. Really cool.
48:30
Speaker 3: Nice to see another active psychophysiologist out there trying to
48:35
Speaker 3: make a difference and connect the body and the brain,
48:38
Speaker 3: especially for young people, because if you can help them,
48:42
Speaker 3: give them life skills at this age... rather than just
48:46
Speaker 3: have them think they have a frigging disorder that needs treatment,
48:49
Speaker 3: you're going to be doing them such a better service
48:52
Speaker 3: for the rest of their lives.
48:53
Speaker 2: Early intervention and education is the key.
48:56
Speaker 3: And tools, skills, frigging life skills. We need less talk
49:00
Speaker 3: about mental health conditions and more talk about mental skills.
49:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, just let them understand that their superpower is their imagination.
49:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, bloody awesome. Mercedes, great stuff. Keep doing what you do.
49:14
Speaker 3: Thanks, Paul.
49:15
Speaker 2: Enjoyed the chat. Thank you.
49:16
Speaker 3: Cheers