Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / Pulling the Plug on a Hostile Conversation
Transcript
- Speaker 1 (00:05): Welcome to, it's All Your Fault On True Story fm, the one and Oldie podcast dedicated to helping you identify and deal with the most challenging human interactions, those with someone who may have a high conflict personality. I'm Megan Hunter and I'm here with my co-host, bill Eddie. Speaker 2 (00:23): Hi everybody. Speaker 1 (00:24): We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California where we focus on training, consulting and educational programs and methods all to do with high conflict. In this episode today, we'll talk about whether it's possible to end a hostile conversation peacefully, and if so, how to do it and if there's a difference between peacefully ending it in a one-on-one conversation versus in a group or in front of a group. But first, a couple of notes. Send your high conflict related questions to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or on our website@highconflictinstitute.com slash podcast where you'll also find all the show notes and links. Alright, bill, so I know you get asked this question quite a lot and I hear it once in a while myself, and I've had some experiences in trying to end a hostile conversation with an upset person, an angry person, and they just kind of won't stop themselves and it's kind of ugly and maybe you feel your blood pressure rising. So in that one-on-one situation, let's say you have someone really blaming you or just yelling, upset in denial, maybe even lying. Can something like this be ended peacefully or should you just walk away? Speaker 2 (01:51): Well, what I think is that the best thing is to do a two-step process. And one thing in all high conflict situations is we want to keep it simple so it's easy to remember under stress and pressure. So the thing that I recommend is that have these two steps. The first is you give a warning and it can be the persons talking to you about you talking to you about somebody else getting real, like you said, yelling, blaming, all of that is to say, Hey, if you keep talking to me that way, we're going to have to end this conversation, so please stop. And then they keep talking that way. You've chosen to have me end the conversation, so this is goodbye. And now I am either walking away, turning off the phone, but doing something. Because the theory here is you can't control the other person, but you control your participation. Speaker 2 (02:53): And I'm actually starting to think of this as pulling the plug on a high situation and that you can do that almost at any time. And that the other person often feeds if they're a high conflict person, feeds off of you arguing with them. So rather than argue as I'm not going to play anymore. Okay, you've chosen to have me end the conversation, so this is goodbye for now. Let me know when you're ready to talk civilly. And let me give an example. I had a case I represented a woman, a victim, survivor of domestic violence, and her husband didn't have a lawyer, so he had to talk to me. I had to talk to him and he would call up and say, you tell that. And he had all this terrible words to describe her, we have to do such and such. I said, hang on, if you're going to talk that way, I'm going to have to hang up. Speaker 2 (03:53): And he said, I'll talk any way I want you tell that blah, blah, blah. I said, okay, you've chosen for me to hang up so goodbye. Talk to me when you're ready to talk civilly. Next day he calls up, he starts out like that. I say, hang on. If you're going to talk like that, I'm going to have to end the conversation. He says, no, no, no, don't hang up. I really want to solve this problem. And he made it a good effort to be respectful. And then of course he got a lawyer, which made my life much easier Speaker 1 (04:26): For sure. I mean, it's pretty simple. It's not rocket science, but yet can be one of the hardest things to do because I guess culturally we think we're going to offend someone or I think underneath most of it is fear. We don't want to get hit or we're conflict avoiders. Perhaps if you're a conflict avoider, then you're probably going to be caught up in that conversation for longer and stay in it longer and the other person will just continue with it. If you're more of a conflict comfortable person, then you might engage and engage in the wrong ways, which will also keep it going. So being assertive by setting a limit, like you're saying, bill is really the key. Speaker 2 (05:12): I think so. And what's interesting, and you're getting at this is I think this comes up a lot for helping professionals. So social workers, therapists, lawyers, nurses, police ministers, doctors, and generally our nice people who like to help other people. So the thing I get at some of our trainings is I don't want to be rude. And so they don't want to interrupt somebody who's being rude and needs interrupting. And so I think we have to learn that assertiveness you're talking about and get comfortable. And the only way to get comfortable with that is practice. And so it's one of the exercises in some of my trainings is let's have someone being obnoxious and you giving the warning and then ending the conversation. And people are really empowered by that. They're really surprised. I can interrupt. And what you're interrupting is a bad pattern of behavior, not interrupting a person. You're interrupting behavior and you can say, when you're ready to talk civilly, call me back. Speaker 1 (06:25): And I think for the people who are a little more shy and don't like to assert themselves in this way, it will feel uncomfortable. It just does. There's no way around that until you get practiced at it. So know that you can get through those hard moments where you feel very uncomfortable and your face is flushing and you feel like you want to run as fast as you can and as far as you can, but if you just stay with it and make your statement and then leave, it's very empowering. And I really truly believe we don't do enough of this and it's probably a big reason why there is so much high conflict behavior. Speaker 2 (07:03): I think you're right. And the more we learn to do this, seeing an increase in high conflict behavior. And the problem is that people don't set limits on themselves, and so the people around them have to set limits. So we teach that self restraints, people doing your statements and encouraging statements for themselves, but also people around need to get comfortable saying, no, no, no, hang on. And by the way, you don't have to say anything real elaborate. I love just saying, hang on, hang on. And people go, oh, or I'm hanging on and then make my point. But you have to be quick about it. Once you get their attention, if you pause, they'll fill the gap. So you're going to say, hang on, if you keep talking this way, we're going to have to stop this conversation so it's up to you, but please stop talking this way. Speaker 1 (07:59): Yeah, that gap you mentioned is so interesting because that high conflict brain will just continue to spill and spill and spill. And I think we don't want to offend people, but take a cue from nature. I don't think in the animal kingdom that misbehavior and bad behavior is allowed to continue. There's natural consequences. And I think if as the human species, if we enacted more natural consequences, hang on, hang on, I need to leave this conversation, whatever, it would curb behavior a lot more. I know the older I get, the more comfortable I am with this. And it's just really brings your stress down and you don't dread maybe seeing that person as much because you actually have some good boundaries and set some limits. Speaker 2 (08:48): It reminds me of a mediation I once did with a couple in their seventies and the end of the mediation, they said, thank you so much for stopping us from acting like three-year-olds nice because during the mediation they would start getting angry at each other or saying things that were really inappropriate and I'd be, hang on, hang on. Because in mediation I see part of my job as the traffic cop and going, hang on right now, you need to listen right now. You need to focus, and things like that. I just always remember that I think they became three-year-olds temporarily, but I helped them return to being adults. I think that's a lot of what we do if we interrupt the negative patterns of behavior. Speaker 1 (09:40): And what about their experience? What do you think this individual is experiencing when you set a limit? Well, Speaker 2 (09:46): First of all, they often look shocked because disoriented, because they're used to just haranguing the people around them, and it's like a perplexed look. And then if I give them something else to do in mediation, I say, hang on, hang on. You need to focus back on questions about that proposal. And you give them something to do. They're often like, oh, okay. And then they focus back. If you just say, stop. It's kind of like with alcohol and drug addiction, you just say, stop. That doesn't work. You have to have something else to do. Go to meetings and practice this and that. So I think it's redirecting as well as getting them to stop that behavior. Speaker 1 (10:38): And you can't feel responsible for their reaction or their response. Right? Speaker 2 (10:44): Yeah. And what happens is it's also a practice for them. So let's say you're working with them as a lawyer, as a therapist, as an accountant, as a plumber, you stay consistent with this. You don't get real emotional about it. It's just like, Hey, we got to stop. You might raise your voice a little bit, but it's not accusatory. It's like, hang on or stop. And then they start learning that about you. So in my mediations, people start going, oh, okay, you're right. I've got to focus back on the questions or the proposal or something. So they learn too. And that's what's really gratifying is you see people slowly changing a little bit because you have interrupted the old pattern. Speaker 1 (11:34): Absolutely. And then another little tip, I think that can be handy, and I hear professionals tell us this very often, that their way of ending a hostile conversation is to say, oh, I've got an appointment in two minutes, I need to go. So I think it's a good way of a limit if most professionals have an appointment they need to get to. And even if you don't have one in two minutes, you might need to prepare for that appointment. So I think it's fair to say that. How about you? Speaker 2 (12:04): Yeah, I think it's a tricky thing, but I think you can always say, I've got something I have to do. I have to go. There is always something you have to do. I'm uncomfortable with outright lying about it. I have an appointment, but I won't admit, I won't say I've never done that, Speaker 2 (12:26): But I think it's better to say, I've got something I have to do. Because you always have that, and family members can say this, I know a guy I worked with once, he would text somebody and say, please call me right now, just call me. And then his phone goes off, he takes a call, I says, hi. Oh, oh, hey everybody, I got to go. That's funny. I don't really want to do that. But I think just saying I have something I helped else I have to do interrupts the negative flow. And when you think about all of the high conflict behavior as patterns of behavior, when you interrupt a negative pattern of behavior, you help people. And that's the thing that not enough people have learned to do. The more we learn to do this, the less high conflict there's going to be. Speaker 1 (13:24): Right? It's a gift that you give. It's not a mean thing in our minds. I think it's this awful thing to give someone a boundary or set a limit, but you're actually giving them a gift in the short term and maybe over time as well, like you said. So now let's shift into what to do in a group setting. And there's two types here. One is a group setting where someone's attacking you, sort of, or confronting you or being very angry and hostile with you in front of other people. And the other is similar, except when you're maybe standing in front of a group, you're the chairman of a board, a school board or something, and someone's really going off and won't stop. So let's talk about that one first Bill, I had something happen to me as I was standing in front of a large group of people giving a workshop. Speaker 1 (14:27): There was an accusation made against me, and it really went on for a long time. It felt like an hour, but it was probably more like 10 minutes. But I felt pretty gut punched over it and kind of got defensive. And then I started thinking, how do I respond to this? And I tried a couple of attempts at stopping it in front of maybe a hundred people in the room, but I wasn't able to do so. Now, in hindsight, the efforts I was making, number one, were sort of coming from a place of survival, so to speak, when you're standing in front of a crowd of people and you're just trying to figure out what to say, what to do, especially when you've been accused of something. So I went away and thought quite a lot about how could I have handled that differently because what I did didn't work. Speaker 1 (15:18): And I realized that I'd watched this other speaker, I don't know, 20 years ago, and she'd had someone, an audience member just start kind of in a nuanced way attacking her character and her credibility in front of a room full of judges. She let it go for a little bit, and then she kind of leaned in close to him and said, sir, do you have a question for me? If you do, what is your question? If you don't, I need to move on. And I tell you what worked like magic, because he did have a question, and it was very different from what both the speaker and everyone in the room I think thought it was going to be. So I have tried that since, and it's worked very well. Speaker 2 (16:07): I think that that's excellent. And the theory that I have from your description is that if they hijack the agenda, and now everyone's listening to them that, and you argue, they say, well, you're not doing paying attention to the X, Y, Z issue. And you say, well, yes we are. Here's how we're paying attention to the X, Y, Z issue. What's happened is they've hijacked the agenda and now you're responding to their agenda. And I think the key with what you just described with redirecting them to a question is you stick with your agenda and your agenda is whatever it is, and you take questions on your agenda, but don't let someone hijack your agenda. I think that's the key. And by nature, we get defensive. Our amygdala says, you're being attacked, fight back. And so our impulse is to argue, and that works just fine for high conflict people because now you're down in the mud with me and let's roll around a bit. And instead you just really want to interrupt that and stick with your agenda. And like she said, if they've got a question, address that and if not, move on Speaker 1 (17:39): And you can refer back to that agenda. I need to move back onto my agenda and then just keep talking. Speaker 2 (17:45): Exactly. Speaker 1 (17:46): And I think the room, if the other person starts talking, others in the room will see really what's going on here. And it can be intimidating and really tough to keep a poker face during all of that. Speaker 2 (18:00): Oh, absolutely. Now, some meetings you may know in advance that someone's going to be disruptive. And so there's ways to deal with that. When we're ready, I'll save that. But back to the agenda is sometimes the person interrupting says, we have to pay attention to the X, Y, Z issue. And you can say, well, actually that's not on today's agenda. And if you want to add that to the agenda for next time, let me know. But now we need to keep going. The agenda was set in advance, everyone agreed to the agenda, and so this is where we are. And so you kind of fight for your agenda and this can fit any group situation, I think of committee meetings, board meetings like you said, and you say, Hey, this isn't what we're talking about today, so let's get back to the issue at hand. And I think the more people hear that they can do that, the more they'll do that. Speaker 1 (18:59): So what about when you're just a, let's say out in a social setting or maybe at work and you have someone sort of coming at you in front of a group of people? Speaker 2 (19:11): Yeah, so that's tricky. I think of, well, actually, I dunno if this is exactly what you you're describing, but I think of a presentation I was doing with about 20 people and someone said, bill, that'll never work. And I was like, this is my life now is teaching and developing this stuff that they just wiped away. This will never work. And I remember arguing with them and saying, no, it works. It works. You don't understand. And then I caught myself and realized, wait a minute, this is a perfect time for an ear statement. And I said, wow, that's what I thought. And I first started dealing with this and trying this out so I can understand your skepticism and I'm happy to tell you that it surprisingly does seem to work. And as you get familiar with it, you may find that it does too. So rather than arguing is empathizing and then educating. And I think you can do that in social settings too. Someone says, I heard so-and-so got fired or got in trouble. Speaker 1 (20:35): It's all from the company, Speaker 2 (20:36): Sold from the company. And I find that highly unlikely and rather than arguing is saying, Hey Joe, that's really surprising for me to hear. I'd really have to hear more before I believe that because I've never heard anyone make that criticism of so-and-so before. So I think what you're getting at really, Megan, is that today's discourse is much more personal, includes personal attacks, hostility, unmanaged emotions, and that we can all bring it back to civility and that we can also not only be civil, but say to other people, Hey, hang on, we really need to be more respectful here and not spread rumors because rumors just take off nowadays. It's like, oh, so and so got fired. And it's like, well, I don't want to repeat that to anybody until I check it out. And I think we all should hang on until we find out if that's really true. Speaker 1 (21:44): But Bill, that's not the Twitter way or the Facebook way or the Instagram way or TikTok way or whatever. So yeah, we do need to exercise restraint in this world so we can have a more peaceful existence and definitely find that missing piece. Speaker 1 (22:08): Hopefully that was helpful to listeners as you encounter these kinds of conversations. And next week is going to be our final episode of the year. So of course we'll talk about what to avoid at holiday gatherings. So be sure to listen to that. Send your questions to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or submit them to high conflict institute.com/podcast and we'd love it if you tell your friends and colleagues about us and grateful if you'd leave a review wherever you listen to our podcast. Until next time, keep learning and practicing these skills and be kind to yourself and others while we all try to find the missing piece. It's All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music, by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins and Ziv Moran. Find the show notes and transcripts at True Story fm or high conflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.