Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / Putin’s Potential: Is Putin a Malignant Narcissist? Part 2
Transcript
- Megan Hunter: Welcome to It's All Your Fault on TruStory FM. The one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and deal with the most challenging human interactions, those with people with high conflict personalities. I'm Megan Hunter, and a here with my co-host Bill Eddy. Bill Eddy: Hi everybody. Megan Hunter: We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California. And in today's episode, we're going to continue our discussion on Vladimir Putin's aggression, and take a deep dive into Bill's research into Putin, and his book that came out a couple years ago called Why We Elect Narcissists and Sociopaths, and How We Can Stop. First though, remember to send us your questions about high conflict people or the five personality types to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or through our website at highconflictinstitute.com/podcast, where you can also find the show notes and links for today's episode. And if you'd give us a rate and review, just know that we'd be grateful. And also just know we are not diagnosing anyone in our discussions and the term high conflict personality is not a diagnosis, it's a description of a pattern of behavior. So we're here to help others understand these personality types and how to have better relationships with them. So thank you for joining us. And now let's get onto the topic of the day. Here we are in the third week of Russia's invasion into Ukraine. In last week's episode, we discuss the characteristics of malignant narcissism and whether that applies to Putin. And the world seems to be catching on that he can't be trusted. He's out of control. Sanctions really aren't impacting his decisions, and he's far worse than just a strong bully. So today we're going to continue our discussion about really what has become one of the worst disasters, not only in modern times, but in recorded history. And this is driven by a man who is willing to do what 99.99999% of the rest of the world would never do. And in our work, here at High Conflict Institute, we teach that high conflict people do things that 90% of other people would never do. And in this case, of course, it's much more extreme. And although there are other malignant narcissists as political leaders across the globe, he's the only one engaging in actions that 99.99999% of other people would never do. And I should give a little caveat to that. There are other places in the world where there are malignant narcissist leaders or despots who are wreaking havoc on populations such as in Ethiopia, and we've seen it in the Middle East. So I don't want us to think that it's just Putin, it's just Russia or Ukraine. There are other spots around the world, but right now we're focused on this particular guy. So let's dive in, Bill, let's remind our listeners what really makes a malignant narcissist, and whether Putin fits that description. Bill Eddy: This is a diagnosis identified really by Eric Fromm and Otto Kernberg around the 1960s and '70s. And mostly, they were referring to political leaders like Hitler, Stalin, the Caesars in the Roman Empire, some of the pharaohs way back in Egypt, just the really ruthless, most ruthless characters. But they identified it as having four characteristics, which we think of as mental health characteristics. So one is narcissistic personality disorder, and I do want to mention, we're not diagnosing. On the other hand, it helps to understand the possibility that someone has these disorders so that you operate to protect yourself and protect your love ones and protect your country. So we're not saying he does or doesn't have this, but I suggest we operate on the possibility. And likewise in families, dating, workplace and all, you don't have to diagnose someone to think there's the possibility that someone has these difficulties. So narcissistic personality disorder, which includes the possibility of a drive for unlimited power. There's anti-social traits, which has the possibility of deceitfulness, serious lying, conning, very aggressive, even reckless. There's paranoia, seeing the word is out to get you and belittling and humiliating you. And there's sadism a willingness to harm other people and get pleasure out of harming other people. Now, all four of these things, there's certainly a lot of indicators of the possibility that he has this. And if he does, then that tells us, first of all, he's not going to change. But second of all, this is a personality that grows, and that's why it's malignant. It gets worse and worse with time. So one thing I want to say about this, and people debating, has he gone crazy? Is he now irrational? Is he out of control? And if he has this personality, it's really just an extension of what we've been seeing all along. And in studying him for my book, and also recently, he basically likes picking on weaker entities like Chechnya. When he came into office in 1999, he led, really, the war in Chechnya, which in many ways went on for several years. And what's frightening is to think, through the winter, three or four months, he, basically did what he's doing now in Ukraine, which is demolishing the main city and not caring about the citizens, many people dying. And then in 2008, he went into Georgia, which was another neighbor of Russia that they considered part of the old Russian Federation. And, again, laid waste to parts of the country, still controls parts of Georgia and claims they're independent countries, just like he said in Eastern Ukraine. So what we see here is someone with a pattern that's just getting worse. Georgia is a country, I think, of five to 8 million people. Chechnya is like a million, little over a million. Ukraine's about 44 million people. If he follows his pattern, and people with these personalities have very patterned behavior, he's going to lay waste to the big cities of Ukraine, and not care if he bombs maternity wards and such. He's allowing people to leave the country. And actually that fits his pattern of wanting to get opponents out of the way. He's allowing people to leave Russia right now. He's happy to get rid of opponents by having them leave, so he has a pure control of the country, the news media, of the people. So he's confusing to many people, because they think he's crazy, but he is not. He's an extreme malignant narcissist, quite possibly. And this is how he acts. This is what he does. And he picks on people weaker. And that's important to know because I think in how to him that Europe and US could respond with strength and perhaps intimidate him. Megan Hunter: As we predicted in last week's episode, he hasn't stopped. Is this because he's backed into a corner? Because he's trying to save face? Or because if he does have malignant narcissism, that it just won't allow him to stop? Bill Eddy: It doesn't allow them to stop, unless they're really physically stopped. And that's what's interesting about all these sanctions, because he's undergone sanctions before, and, frankly, I think the sanctions aren't touching him. He's so isolated, which is part of his paranoia. But in many cases, malignant narcissists, and we see them sometimes in trying to control families. We see their coercive control, domestic violence cases, child abuse. The kidnapper of Elizabeth Smart 10, 12 years ago seemed to have this combination. It was written up in the court case. Jim Jones, who took 900 people off to south America with him and ended up getting them to commit suicide, he committed suicide with them, seems to have had this personality possibly as well. So if they don't really stop themselves, someone else has to stop them. And it isn't so much punishing consequences as someone physically stopping, arresting them or fighting back against them. And historically, malignant narcissists have taken over countries, win battles, and run things until the next one comes along or a force larger than themselves, like the allies against Hitler, come in and remove him physically. Megan Hunter: You mentioned that Jim Jones, ultimately, committed suicide along with the members of his cult. And it made me wonder, would Putin do something? Would he commit suicide? Bill Eddy: Sure. Megan Hunter: I can't imagine... You think so, interesting. Bill Eddy: If it was the end of the line, in other words, let's say, the US and Europe invaded Russia, and were dominating Russia. Let's say he's in Moscow, closing in on him. He would commit suicide just like Hitler did, when they were closing in on him. But this is one thing that I think could influence strategy, although I'm not a politician or a military strategist, but if you protect Ukraine, you're not threatening him with extinction or you're not dominating his country. And that's why there's a strong argument for a no fly zone. Because it doesn't directly threaten him, it just threatens his fantasy. And I think it's unlikely he would commit suicide or even start nuclear war over Ukraine. I think he would certainly do that if Russia was invaded, but over Ukraine, it really doesn't... This character likes to dominate weaker people. And if you show strength, it stops them in their tracks.I think this psychological understanding hasn't really been given as much credit as it should. The fact that he at extreme would use nuclear weapons, certainly that's true. But I don't think protecting Ukraine puts him in that defensive position as much as if we in invaded Russia itself, which I don't think anyone wants to do. Megan Hunter: I read yesterday, and I don't know if this is confirmed or not, but some Russian soldiers in a city in Ukraine were talking to a Ukrainian that they just shot and killed his dog, and he was injured as well. But as they were, I guess, bandaging him up or something, they were having a conversation, and they told him that, their war isn't against Ukraine, it's against the USA inside Ukraine. I thought that was interesting. Bill Eddy: I think that's part of the paranoia that Putin's been feeding the Russian people, and certainly the Russian soldiers, is that this is really the West and the US is coming in to humiliate Russia. But I think on the other hand that Putin knows that Ukraine isn't the US. And so I think so much of what he's saying is propaganda. That's why people are confused. What does he really think? And I think he thinks with this type of pattern, this malignant narcissistic pattern, strong possibility, which means he knows what he is doing, but he is highly manipulative and lying. Megan Hunter: And he is so driven by a different operating system, and that's, I think, where people get confused. We want to apply rationality to people, even if they are exerting aggression. And we just assume that someone in world leadership is logical and thinking rationally, but he's thinking rationally but from within a different operating system, I guess might be a way to put it. So you have to adjust how you view him and adjust your expectations, and he becomes very predictable, like you've laid out. And we sort of know what he will be capable of doing, like you've said. Bill Eddy: And you really make a good point, it's a different operating system. It's hard for people to understand someone with zero empathy, zero remorse, and who feels like he's defending his country by taking over other countries. And thinking we've seen this movie before, not just with Hitler, but in South America and Africa and Europe, this is just part- Megan Hunter: Asia. Bill Eddy: ... of world history. Yeah. Megan Hunter: All the despots, right? Bill Eddy: Yeah. Megan Hunter: I remember Charles Taylor in Africa and, of course, the Khmer Rouge and Cambodia. I mean, we've seen this repeated throughout history, I suppose. So here we are today and I think it's probably more shocking for us now than maybe for any other population in history. Now moving over to Ukraine's president Zelensky, do you think he's handling Putin in the correct manner? Bill Eddy: Well, it's interesting, because I don't think it really matters how he handles Putin. I think what matters is how he handles the Ukrainian people. And I think he's doing that very, very well. And he's totally offending Putin, and Putin's committed to assassinating him. And, sadly, I think eventually he will succeed. It may take him a year, but he's very committed to that. But I think Zelensky's doing exactly... they're comparing him now to Churchill and he gave a speech, I guess, in England, the parliament there, and they cheered him on, referring to Churchill's speech about, "We'll fight them in the air. We'll fight them on the land. We'll fight him at sea." And I think he's really doing a good job of leading the country. So the fact that he's offending Putin, doesn't matter, really. Megan Hunter: Well, bless him. What a guy, right? Bill Eddy: Yeah. Megan Hunter: That takes some strength and character and resolve that I think is hard to come by. Now, what about NATO and the other nations, including the US, same question, are they handling Putin in the right way? Bill Eddy: Well, this is where it's tricky. I think in many ways they're being very rational, responsible, reasonable. And I think that's good, because we could easily just race into a nuclear war and annihilate humanity. And I think they're being cautious, and that's a good thing. On the other hand, I think this personality, like I said, they like to pick on people who are weaker. And the sanctions aren't really... See, Putin's interpreting the sanctions as toughening up the Russian people, so he's fine with that. And the oligarchs that are getting squeezed are no longer hanging out with Putin. From everything I read, Putin's extremely isolated, and you can't even get in to see him without a week's quarantine. And he's not really seeing almost anybody, just the people that totally support him. So anyway, but this view of the world, on the one hand, threatening and intimidating and its paranoid parts, but on the other hand, the response is pretty passive. And with these high conflict personalities, and he's like the most extreme form, that emboldens them. And that's why, I've said before, I'm concerned, it's not just interested in Ukraine. He takes over Ukraine, then Estonia and Latvia and all those countries are next in. And even though they're in NATO, I believe, I think he's going to try to pick off little country by little country. And so we really need to stop him now. And I think that's the aggressive action by the West, or at least assertive, not against Russia, but to protect Ukraine, makes a lot of sense with the high conflict theory. But, again, I'm glad I'm not the person making those decisions. Megan Hunter: You and me both. But it's interesting to be a sideline observer, especially having this kind of background information and knowledge that we do. So let's turn to your book, Why We Elect Narcissists and Sociopaths, and How We Can Stop. You wrote this over a couple years and it came out in 2019. And as you and I were emailing back and forth this week, you made the comment, "He's not different now, in 2022, he's just worse." And I know in the book you talk about the fantasy triad. And so I'm wondering, I guess maybe give us a little bit of information of what you found in your research for that book, and how maybe that fantasy triad applies to this situation, if it does? Bill Eddy: What I found, and I really looked back at Hitler and Stalin and Mao Tse Tung, and then I looked at the current rulers like Putin, and Orban in Hungary, and Duterte and the Philippines and all, and they all have this fantasy crisis triad. That's how they build their power. And the way it works is there's a fantasy crisis. So what Putin's doing right now totally fits this. So he's telling the Russian people that the leadership in Ukraine are Nazis and drug addicts, and that the US is able to manipulate them. And so they're really puppets for the US. And so there's your crisis. And then the evil villain, of course, is the US and the Nazis, like Zelensky, who happens to be Jewish, and also speaks Russian. And then Putin becomes a hero. And it's interesting, because I was reading the interview with Fiona Hill, which I mentioned before, who's written a book about him and is one of the experts. And what she said is, and here's a quote, it says, "Part of Putin's persona as president is that he's a ruthless, tough guy. The strong man, who's the champion and protector of Russia. And that's why Russia needs him. If all was peaceful and quiet, why would you need Vladimir Putin? If you think of other war time leaders, like Winston Churchill, in peace time, Winston Churchill got voted out of office." So Putin's creating this fantasy crisis to create people feeling like they need him. And that's what all of these leaders do. And to me, I think why we're seeing this happening now, and we're seeing more of these potentially malignant narcissists in power in the 2020s, is because they're so able to control the media. And one of the first things Putin did his first year in office, was take over the television stations. And so if you can control the media, and who gets to do that, but people who have the most extreme, strong looking image. So one country after another is becoming susceptible to this image of a strong man, who actually turns out to be a very dangerous person. And that's what my book was about, because people are electing leaders like this. Putin got elected, although his elections are always suspect, but a lot of people support him. Orban in Hungary. Berlusconi in Italy. Maduro in Venezuela. Bolsonaro in Brazil. We could just go on, and it's because they can manipulate the media. That's what's changed this time in history, in the last 10, 20, 30 years, is now you can have a very few people controlling the media message. And the high emotion media message makes people tolerate people like this, or feel like they need the fantasy hero. Megan Hunter: So it's interesting you bring up the media piece, because it leads me to think about all of the news that we're absorbing right now. I know my daughter, who's about 28 years old, was kind of depressed, I think it was over the weekend, about seven days ago. And she said, "I think it's just all this information I'm absorbing on the news about Ukraine and Russia, and just seeing the destruction of people," which bothers everyone so deeply. And she's kind of the type that really feels other people's pain, so it's especially hard on her. So what is this doing to our brain? Bill Eddy: Well, I think if we have empathy that it actually is harmful to us to get too much. And so it's a question of how much is too much. And I looked up some research and found a study, basically looking at how graphic images effect, its Media Exposure to Collective Trauma, Mental Health, and Functioning, Does it Matter What You See? And this is a study that was done and came out in 2020. And what's interesting is they said it does, the amount. Graphic image exposure is associated with mental health symptoms linked to impaired functioning. And they looked at two examples. One was the Boston marathon bombing, and they found that people just got fixated on the news. It said, six or more daily media based exposure to the Boston marathon bombings was associated with higher acute stress than was direct exposure to the bombing itself. This is something I've always thought about, especially with kids, is kids watching constant violence may actually have more impact on them than kids living in war zones. Megan Hunter: Wow. Bill Eddy: Now- Megan Hunter: Wow. Bill Eddy: Yeah. Now a second one I wanted to mention is it also looked at the 9/11 and I remember the whole nation, the whole world was glued to the tube about that. But it said, fear of future terrorism strengthened the association between 9/11 related acute stress and subsequent cardiovascular health among individuals predominantly exposed to it via television. Suggesting that fear may be an important process linking media exposure with poor health related outcomes. So I don't want to get into too deep, but the key thing here seems to be the graphic images. And so what I've concluded for myself and would recommend to others is don't have yourself exposed to the images too much. I think, the information is useful, but don't overdose. In a sense, this is the difference between having a drink and getting drunk. I think we're getting drunk on these kind of crises, because we have empathy and that's a good thing. And a limited exposure they say could be good, because it builds empathy for the people that you're seeing and what they're going through. But too much of the imagery could be harmful, could even trigger PTSD, post traumatic stress disorder. So I guess I want our listeners to just be aware that if you're having that uncomfortable feeling, you're probably a healthy person, but don't expose yourself to too much, or you're not going to be able to be effective even at helping people that you see having difficulty. Megan Hunter: I recall being drunk on 9/11, and it was because the day of the attacks, I came down with strep throat. I was very, very sick. So I ended up being home for, I don't know, four or five days in a row, maybe even longer. I don't recall. But because I was home and not at work, I just watched the events. It was the once in a lifetime for all of us. So I just kept that TV on and I remember getting so overly saturated, and it did wear my mental health down. I felt depressed. I felt angry, and it felt hopeless. And at some point I kind of had a big cry, and I realized I had to get back to work. I had to get away from the TV. I had to go play tennis. So, yeah, I think, now there's even probably more news channels than there were in 9/11, and of course we have social media now, so there's more images and more opportunity to see more graphic images. So I think it's important that you brought this up Bill. And like you said, if you're listening to this, just pace yourself and just be cautious about it, and take care of your own mental wellbeing, while you have concern and empathy for the things going on in the world. So I guess we'll see where we are next week. It would just be so wonderful if everything were just wrapped up and done, and everybody could go home and this war could stop. But as we've discussed about Putin, it's fairly unlikely. But we do send all of our love and prayers to the people of Ukraine and everyone around the world who is forced to endure the worst of human behavior. You'll find the show notes and links to a couple of articles and to the books that Bill mentioned, Why We Elect Narcissists and Sociopaths, and How We Can Stop. And then his other book that is very widely acclaimed is Five Types of People Who Can Ruin Your Life. And both of those will give you a deeper understanding of these personality types. And in the next episode, we'll finally get to the much anticipated discussion with Dr. Jay Lieberman, a retired surgeon, who will discuss his late in life bipolar diagnosis. He's a unique and very well informed individual who can give insight into the progression of the disorder, how it impacted his life, his family, his career? And it kind of is topped off with a beautiful story of forgiveness, healing, and paying it forward. So send us any questions to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or submit them to highconflictinstitute.com/podcast. And please tell all your friends about us. We'd be very grateful if you leave us a review, wherever you listen to this podcast. Until then, keep striving to find the missing peace. It's All Your Fault is a protection of TruStory FM, engineering by Andy Nelson, music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins, and Ziv Moran. Find the show, show notes and transcripts at trustory.fm or highconflictinstitute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.