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ISO 22458: Bringing Inclusive Service to Life · Unlocking Vulnerability

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Unlocking Vulnerability, the podcast that explores what vulnerability
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  Speaker 1: really looks like in everyday life. I'm Helen, and in
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: each episode, I'm joined by a different guest who'll bring
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  Speaker 1: their unique insight and perspectives from across the vulnerability space.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: We'll discuss the realities behind vulnerability and what it takes
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: to respond when people need additional support. We're glad to
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: have you here, so grab a cup of tea and
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: let's get started. Welcome back to Unlocking Vulnerability with me,
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Helen Pettifer. Today, I'm delighted to be joined by Julie Walker,
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  Speaker 1: who is the Global Scheme Manager at BSI. Today, we'll
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  Speaker 1: be discussing the ISO 22458 Standard on Consumer Vulnerability and
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  Speaker 1: Inclusive Service Kite Mark. Hello, Julie. It's wonderful to have
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  Speaker 1: you on the podcast today.
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  Speaker 2: Hi, Helen.
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  Speaker 3: It's really nice to be here to let everyone hear
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  Speaker 3: a little bit more about the standard and who we
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  Speaker 3: are at BSI and brilliant.
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  Speaker 1: But I'm looking forward to our conversation because we always
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  Speaker 1: end up talking about inclusive service whenever we get together
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  Speaker 1: that's it always just comes back to inclusive service doesn't
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  Speaker 1: it so I know that the conversation today is going
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  Speaker 1: to be brilliant and so before we get into to
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  Speaker 1: the kite mark and the standard do you want to
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  Speaker 1: give a brief introduction to yourself.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah yes so at BSI I'm the global scheme manager
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  Speaker 3: and I manage or look after a couple of schemes
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  Speaker 3: within BSI I all service related really. So I have
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  Speaker 3: inclusive service KiteMark, obviously for the protection of vulnerable consumers.
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  Speaker 3: I have service excellence KiteMark, which as it is, and
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  Speaker 3: innovation management as well. And actually all together, you know,
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  Speaker 3: they're all very similar, you know, all about providing good
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  Speaker 3: service and positive.
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  Speaker 2: Outcomes for customers.
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  Speaker 3: I've been with BSI about four years now. And my
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  Speaker 3: past history is energy, mainly dealing, supporting vulnerable consumers with outages,
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  Speaker 3: et cetera. And actually when we talk about 22458, the
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  Speaker 3: original standard, which was 18477, it was a British standard,
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  Speaker 3: actually was on the committee to develop 22458, which is
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  Speaker 3: where the international standard stemmed from.
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  Speaker 2: So very interesting.
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  Speaker 1: Brilliant, brilliant. It's great to hear that you were part
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  Speaker 1: of it as well. So you've been right at the
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  Speaker 1: heart of it. So I know that what you share
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  Speaker 1: today will be absolutely relevant and clear for everyone to
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  Speaker 1: know what to do to bring it to life themselves.
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  Speaker 1: So obviously, I'm familiar with the standard. I'm an associate
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  Speaker 1: consultant for the standard. So I know quite a lot
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  Speaker 1: about it, but I know that many of our listeners
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  Speaker 1: today won't have a clue about what we're talking about.
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  Speaker 1: So Before we get into the discussion of how that
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  Speaker 1: comes to life, can you give a little bit of
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  Speaker 1: an introduction to what the standard is and, like you say,
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  Speaker 1: how it came to life in the first place?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely.
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  Speaker 3: So, as I say, it originally was a British standard
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  Speaker 3: and I think a way, way back, you know, at
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  Speaker 3: least five to ten years ago, vulnerability, it wasn't really
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  Speaker 3: a big, it was just starting to be a big
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  Speaker 3: word and a lot of people were starting to focus
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  Speaker 3: on on it and improve their services. And although there
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  Speaker 3: was a British standard, they realized that actually across the globe,
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  Speaker 3: you know, protecting vulnerable consumers is also a challenge. So
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  Speaker 3: they formed the working group within BSI Knowledge Solutions and
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  Speaker 3: brought together people from all across the globe.
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  Speaker 2: So I think it's.
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  Speaker 3: About 16 different countries and worked through the current, what
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  Speaker 3: was the current standard. and made an international standard. So
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  Speaker 3: one that's fit for purpose and really could be picked
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  Speaker 3: up anywhere across the globe. The language is clear, you know,
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  Speaker 3: no matter what country. And it formed more of a
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  Speaker 3: guideline or a framework for organisations to assess against the
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  Speaker 3: business and say, well, where are our gaps?
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  Speaker 2: How can we make improvements?
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  Speaker 3: I think the original 18477 was quite hard to interpret.
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  Speaker 3: So 22458 is definitely a lot easier to read And
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  Speaker 3: there's loads.
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  Speaker 2: Of guidance in it. And it covers everything.
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  Speaker 3: From high-level senior management, embedding the culture throughout an organisation.
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  Speaker 3: It covers date protection consent, resources, so training your employees,
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  Speaker 3: to having the right people in the right roles. Inclusive design, obviously,
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  Speaker 3: makes up a big chunk of that. And that's all
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  Speaker 3: about involving your customers, making sure that your policies and
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  Speaker 3: procedures are fit for purpose and not causing any detriment
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  Speaker 3: or bias to any consumers. Recording, responding to consumer vulnerability.
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  Speaker 3: And there's loads of great tables in it that show
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  Speaker 3: examples of what could.
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  Speaker 2: Be a type of vulnerability.
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  Speaker 3: How would you maybe identify that they're struggling? And what
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  Speaker 3: can you do to, what could you put in place
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  Speaker 3: to maybe you know, support those people. So there's loads
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  Speaker 3: of information in there. So especially if a new organisation
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  Speaker 3: was just coming up and saying, oh, well, you know,
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  Speaker 3: how are we going to tackle this? If they downloaded
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  Speaker 3: the standard and went through all the criteria, that alone
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  Speaker 3: should show them where their gaps are. So it's really
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  Speaker 3: a framework to help organisations improve the services they offer.
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  Speaker 3: And then KiteMark obviously goes beyond basic compliance. So there's
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  Speaker 3: additional test measures which are, some of them are sector
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  Speaker 3: specific as well.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. So firms don't necessarily have to have the kite mark.
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  Speaker 1: They could just download the standard and implement it within
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  Speaker 1: their business. Obviously the kite mark is that well-known icon,
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  Speaker 1: isn't it? That is sort of used across the globe
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  Speaker 1: of recognising that actually, yeah, you've gone that extra step
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  Speaker 1: and you've, this is something that's really important within the business.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I mean, absolutely.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, if they want to have a third party organisation,
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  Speaker 3: assess them against the criteria and have that, you know, stamp,
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  Speaker 3: you know, the kite mark to say, it's not just
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  Speaker 3: us that are saying we're doing a good job. We've been,
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  Speaker 3: you know, we've been assessed and we've got certification to
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  Speaker 3: show that. But just downloading the standard itself is great to,
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  Speaker 3: you know, assess that against your business. You don't need
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  Speaker 3: the kite mark, but I maybe shouldn't say that, but yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Yes. It's that actual rubber stamp, isn't it? To say, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: you are doing exactly what, what you should be doing
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  Speaker 1: to support people. Absolutely. And I work quite a lot
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  Speaker 1: with regulated businesses. So, you know, financial services and energy,
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  Speaker 1: as you mentioned. So their regulators are very much on
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  Speaker 1: the ball and getting sort of ducks in the road
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  Speaker 1: for firms to support customers who may be vulnerable. Where
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  Speaker 1: does this guidance, where does the standard sit with regards
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  Speaker 1: to the regulatory guidance and what firms should be doing?
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  Speaker 1: How does it sort of align with everything? Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: So, so as we know, um, a lot of the
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  Speaker 3: regulators we've, I mean, we've got sector specific test measures.
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  Speaker 3: So energy, water, finance, um, all the regulators are looking
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  Speaker 3: for organizations to do more, to support vulnerable customers, um,
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  Speaker 3: through fair, flexible, inclusive service design, and obviously reduce customer harm,
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  Speaker 3: improve outcomes. I think ISO 22458, the criteria itself would absolutely.
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  Speaker 2: Help organisations do that.
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  Speaker 3: But what we've done is we've looked at the standard
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  Speaker 3: and looked at all the regulators' expectations and they align
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  Speaker 3: very nicely. So where you've got, say, Ofgem or Ofwat saying,
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  Speaker 3: you know, you need to do X, Y and Z
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  Speaker 3: to support your customers, you'll find that in the criteria
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  Speaker 3: of the standard that, you know, all that's in there.
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  Speaker 3: But I think, although it's not specific, so I won't
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  Speaker 3: go into detail about what you do with, say, key
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  Speaker 3: meters or, you know, payments and bills. But what it
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  Speaker 3: will do is, in a general way, actually go beyond that. And,
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  Speaker 3: you know, you'll have to do much more to meet
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  Speaker 3: the criteria of the standard. So it's actually aligned to
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  Speaker 3: the regulators and actually goes beyond that basic compliance, especially
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  Speaker 3: with the test measures. So if they're following the criteria
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  Speaker 3: or they've got KiteMark, they're definitely demonstrating, they're meeting, if
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  Speaker 3: not going beyond regulators' requirements or expectations.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. And we've got several clients of ours, actually,
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  Speaker 1: that we've supported through the KiteMark program. And it has
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  Speaker 1: just highlighted them, actually. Yeah, you know, this is the
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  Speaker 1: right thing to do for our consumers. This is the
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  Speaker 1: right thing to do for our employees, the colleagues, especially
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  Speaker 1: customer base and staff. That's important, isn't it?
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  Speaker 2: So what do.
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  Speaker 1: You think, what are the benefits then for firms to
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  Speaker 1: take up the standard, to take up the KiteMark? Or
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  Speaker 1: even just getting it right for their vulnerable customers, really?
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: And I think it's important when you say that it's,
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  Speaker 3: you know, although they have to meet regulatory requirements, what
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  Speaker 3: you said there is really important. It's not about, oh,
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  Speaker 3: we're doing this because we need to meet these requirements.
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  Speaker 3: It should be we're doing this because it's the right
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  Speaker 3: thing to do. You know, we want to be the best.
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  Speaker 3: We want to support all our customers. And whatever you
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  Speaker 3: change to put in place to support any customer with
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  Speaker 3: any type of vulnerability, generally it's going to help any customer.
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  Speaker 3: So it's more doing it for the, you know, because
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  Speaker 3: they want to. But the benefits, so obviously customers, if
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  Speaker 3: they've got an inclusive service, they're providing, you know, better
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  Speaker 3: outcomes for customers, you know, they'll be more.
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  Speaker 2: Accessible, easy to contact.
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  Speaker 3: And actually be a part of the journey with an
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  Speaker 3: organisation by being involved in consumer groups, you know, so
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  Speaker 3: making sure that the service they provide is based on
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  Speaker 3: customer feedback and any changes they want to make. Again,
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  Speaker 3: you know, they're interacting with customers in vulnerable circumstances so
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  Speaker 3: that they can make sure that any changes are going to.
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  Speaker 2: Be fit for purpose.
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  Speaker 3: Helps with compliance, not only regulatory compliance, but you know,
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  Speaker 3: your own internal compliance. GDPR, data protection, that kind of thing.
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  Speaker 3: Although the standard doesn't specifically pull out GDPR, you know,
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  Speaker 3: it does say you have to have data policy and
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  Speaker 3: meet any regulatory requirements for your country.
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  Speaker 2: It means they're more accessible.
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  Speaker 3: I think a good thing as well is if an
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  Speaker 3: organisation shows that they're doing all this for their customers
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  Speaker 3: in vulnerable situations, you've got customer trust but you've also
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  Speaker 3: got employee trust. So it's good for your retention because
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  Speaker 3: people want to be part of that journey. You know,
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  Speaker 3: they want to provide support to people and be helpful.
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  Speaker 3: So I think it can help with both customer and
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  Speaker 3: staff retention. And I think most importantly, it's a trust.
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  Speaker 3: You know, a lot of organisations sometimes don't really have
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  Speaker 3: a good press with customers just for the nature of
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  Speaker 3: their business. And I think showing that they meet the
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  Speaker 3: requirements or have kite mark can show say to a
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  Speaker 3: customer who's maybe looking around you know actually do you
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  Speaker 3: know i trust them they've been certified look at all
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  Speaker 3: the great things they do they've got accessibility on their
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  Speaker 3: websites i can easily communicate them and so it just
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  Speaker 3: builds up trust with a customer and their own reputation
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  Speaker 3: so lots of different benefits.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah absolutely and even just working with our clients you
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  Speaker 1: know working working through um The accreditation, you know, it
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  Speaker 1: just highlighted even just before they'd got to that accreditation
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  Speaker 1: with you, it just highlighted some of the gaps. I
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  Speaker 1: know that, you know, with one client, it highlighted that
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  Speaker 1: actually they weren't delivering or they didn't have any processes
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  Speaker 1: in place actually for consumer share that they had suicidal thoughts.
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  Speaker 1: So that was a big gap for them that they highlighted. Oh,
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  Speaker 1: my gosh, you know, we don't know what to do
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  Speaker 1: as an organisation if this situation occurred. So, you know,
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  Speaker 1: we were able to work with them to get policy
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  Speaker 1: in place, a process in place, and train their staff
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  Speaker 1: on some of those really difficult conversations. So even just
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  Speaker 1: that gap analysis can really pick out some of the
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  Speaker 1: things that aren't necessarily in place.
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  Speaker 3: That's really important, actually, because we get a lot of
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  Speaker 3: feedback from our clients who are certified. And whilst during
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  Speaker 3: the journey they might get what we call non-conformances, So
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  Speaker 3: areas where they're maybe not quite meeting it, but they
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  Speaker 3: can make improvements. They actually really welcome these non-conformances or
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  Speaker 3: areas of improvement because what they see being assessed by BSI,
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  Speaker 3: they see that as being great. Yes, you know, you
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  Speaker 3: get the kite mark to show that you're being inclusive
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  Speaker 3: and you provide a great service, but it allows them
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  Speaker 3: a challenge to make improvements. So for instance, with the
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  Speaker 3: suicidal thoughts, we know that certainly with one client, they
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  Speaker 3: didn't have a process in, as you say, and when
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  Speaker 3: they put that in, it literally actually saved a life.
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  Speaker 3: You know, they, they had a call with a customer
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  Speaker 3: and prior to that, they probably wouldn't have known what
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  Speaker 3: to do, but because they put the process in place,
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  Speaker 3: they knew exactly what to do. And, you know, it
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  Speaker 3: really helped the customer get some support and help and literally,
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  Speaker 3: you know, could potentially have saved a life. So, um,
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  Speaker 3: but the, like the other benefits, because, where we say
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  Speaker 3: going beyond basic compliance, the test measures that we create
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  Speaker 3: definitely does push organisations to do that much more. For instance,
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  Speaker 3: one of the test measures is compliance to WCAG 2.2 guidelines,
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  Speaker 3: which is all about having the right pixels and fonts
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  Speaker 3: and not having redundant pictures on your website. And if
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  Speaker 3: they weren't going for certification, quite often that's where you
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  Speaker 3: find they get non-conformance. because it's not something that may
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  Speaker 3: be considered before. So in achieving that, they've actually pushed
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: themselves and gone beyond that basic compliance and doing that
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  Speaker 3: much more to help customers who do use their web pages. So,
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  Speaker 3: you know, there's, there's a lot that's, you know, a
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  Speaker 3: lot of other good benefits.
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  Speaker 1: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And just for those listeners who aren't
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  Speaker 1: familiar with WCAG 2.2, I will just explain that's website
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  Speaker 1: content accessibility guidelines and for it isn't necessarily mandatory for
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  Speaker 1: all firms at the moment I think it is just
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: government departments and councils and local authorities at the moment
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  Speaker 1: so some of our clients are actually sort of you
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: know really shaping their website around those guidelines so it
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: is really beneficial so yeah I just wanted to share
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: that for the listeners because they might be thinking oh
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: my gosh what's that so But it's important just to understand,
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  Speaker 1: is your website accessible for everyone that's accessing it? Often
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  Speaker 1: that's the first thing that people come to, isn't it,
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  Speaker 1: before they pick up the phone and call?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, because a lot of people, they put on the
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: website accessibility toolbar, which is amazing.
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  Speaker 2: You know, it really does help. But forget about the.
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  Speaker 3: Actual design of the website, which can actually really hinder
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: people who use technology to, you know, read what's on
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: the screens or have it read back to them and
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: can actually be a big game changer. Like, it could
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  Speaker 3: be really destructive and, you know, can you imagine how,
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  Speaker 3: you know, how it feels when you come across something
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  Speaker 3: and it doesn't work because the website behind the scenes isn't,
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  Speaker 3: you know, 100%. So, yeah, so a lot of things
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  Speaker 3: that maybe organisations don't think. I think the UK is
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  Speaker 3: really good for that, actually, but because it's global, you know,
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  Speaker 3: it does.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah. And actually, can I just... pick up on that.
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  Speaker 1: And so obviously we're focused on UK organisations. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: I've got a few clients who are outside of the UK.
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  Speaker 1: How much are other countries focusing on consumer vulnerability? What
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  Speaker 1: is the appetite sort of across the globe for this
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  Speaker 1: sort of kite market?
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  Speaker 2: There's actually quite a lot.
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  Speaker 3: We have nearly 50 clients certified, mainly in the UK.
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  Speaker 3: and across water energy finance. We have some on our
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: general scheme, you know, from Citizens Advice Scotland to Consumer
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: Council Northern Ireland. We've got a council, you know, we've
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: got lots of different organisations under that.
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  Speaker 2: But globally, so we have had interest globally.
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  Speaker 3: I think their challenges for consumer vulnerability are very different
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: to ours in the UK. For instance, so say somewhere in,
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: Japan or China, it might be digital accessibility because farmers
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: can't access the cheaper seeds. So therefore they're paying over
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: the odds. So, you know, it's very different challenges across
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: the globe. But yeah, we've had interests from places like Japan,
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: United Arab Emirates. Where else have we had? Some in China.
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  Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean, there's definitely appetite there. I think
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  Speaker 3: it's just a different ways of working, different cultures.
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  Speaker 2: So, yes.
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  Speaker 1: And I think that might be something to be considering
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  Speaker 1: because again, some of our clients have got offshore customer
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  Speaker 1: service teams. So it's even just recognizing different cultures, different, um, values, different, um,
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  Speaker 1: understanding of vulnerability and vulnerable situations. Um, it's, it's always
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: interesting when you have those different, different cultures, those different insights, um,
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: especially then when those offshore organisations and those team members
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  Speaker 1: are then engaging with UK-based customers. I can see some
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: of the challenges around that with regards to that. So
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  Speaker 1: it's always interesting when we look at vulnerability as a
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: global sort of topic, really, and how everybody interprets it differently.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's not to say they're not doing a lot,
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: you know, especially like UAE. I mean, terminology is different.
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  Speaker 3: They call them people of determination rather than customers in
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: vulnerable situations. But they really do a lot, you know,
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  Speaker 3: for vulnerable consumers across there. So I think they do
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  Speaker 3: a lot. It's just making them aware that there's a
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  Speaker 3: standard and it's kind of picking up.
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  Speaker 2: So it's really good.
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yeah. It is always interesting there, isn't it?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So for any of the listeners then who might be thinking, oh,
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: I'd like to learn more or I wouldn't even know
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: where to start because it's a big topic there. What
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: would be your first sort of thoughts to share with
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: those listeners who are new to this and maybe aren't
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: anywhere near the journey to get towards the standard?
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: Well, for starters, I would start with buying a copy
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: of ISO 22458. And I would just literally go through
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: all the criteria, make yourself a little matrix and just
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: tick off you know if you were to be assessed
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: or someone's to ask you what do you do to
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: meet this criteria and just list it down and then
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: that will show you the gaps you know if you
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: suddenly go to one you think oh well we've do
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: it maybe not as well or we don't do anything
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: that's the areas you should be focused on and saying
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: well this is where we need to make improvements and
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: then after that you could go for certification so if
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: you were to contact myself we have a chat and
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: talk through the standard in more depth and the certification
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: journey would be so you can have a gap analysis
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: day which is just a It's a very informal day
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: to say, where are you? Where are you on this journey?
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: This is a criteria. Let's, you know, let's have a chat,
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: see what you've got. And they'll determine whether they're actually
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: are ready or if there's things that they need to improve.
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: And then you would have a stage one, which is
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: just like a day, maybe two days. And that's looking
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: at all your policies and procedures. What, you know, what
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: have you got in place, your governance? and seeing if
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: that's all in, you know, if you've got everything that
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: meets the criteria. And then your stage two is the bulkiest.
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: So that, you know, could be anything from three to
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: eight days, depending on size and organisation. And that's where
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: we test the effectiveness. So they say, we've got all
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: these policy procedures, we've got this criteria, show me the evidence.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: How do you meet this? You know, and it will
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: challenge along the way. It's, you know, it's quite a
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: robust assessment.
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: But very rewarding you know knowing at the end of
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: it you know that you've got that certification and then
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: it's a role in three years so certificates for three
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: years with an annual assessment and that generally is not
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: oh yeah you've done all the stuff that you've done
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: last year that's great we want to see that continual
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: improvement yeah yeah.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: And that's the conversation we're having with you know with
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: with organizations and our clients is actually it's not one
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: and done you're not you haven't just ticked the box
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: to say, that's it, vulnerability. We've got it all sorted.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: All our customers are sorted. You're always going to be learning.
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: You're always going to be, you know, having those conversations,
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: finding out more about the customers, what their challenges are,
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: what you can do better to improve those outcomes. So, yeah,
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: it's important that they are potentially just brought to a
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: place where they can just pause and go, okay, right,
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: this is where we were. This is what we've learned
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: so far. What next?
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely.
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: And I think organisations definitely get a lot out of it.
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: I think the challenges alone that we present, you know,
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: as part of the assessment to say, you know, well,
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: you're doing this, but, you know, you could be doing more,
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: you know, what does that look like? And a lot
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: of them do often say, you know, areas like improving training,
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: tightening up policies and procedures, your website accessibility, all kinds
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: of areas that are usually, you know, come up, you know,
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: over and over as things that need to improve. So,
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: but they always come back and say, that was great.
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: They welcome it. And actually quite often I would say
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: that if they hadn't had that challenge and they hadn't
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: looked at putting things in place, they wouldn't have discovered
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: all these other stuff that they.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: Think could be changed.
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: So it actually goes, You know, they start then thinking themselves,
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: they're in that thought of innovation, you know.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: Let's improve things. And so it's really helpful.
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: It's not just a by the standard, we'll assess you.
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: There's so much more behind that.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah. And it needs the firm, the stakeholders involved
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: to be committed to it, doesn't it?
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely, yeah.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: They need the resources to be able to bring it
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: to life.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: That's important.
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: Definitely. Yeah. And it's not just people who deal with vulnerability,
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: you know, it'll be your stakeholder engagement team, your, your,
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: your online team, top level management, your frontline staff, you know,
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: you know, all these key people it's across the organization.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: So. Yeah. Do you find that many clients who are
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: going through the KiteMark thing, do they put together a
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: bit like a working group that the sort of the
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: KiteMark working group and they get the stakeholders from the
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: different departments or, or do you find that the, sort
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: of different stakeholders are coming in at different points of that,
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: that sort of accreditation journey?
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: Well, I'm speaking more as a client now, actually, because
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: originally before I worked at BSI, I was the person
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: doing the implementing.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: Within the organisation.
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: And people do it in different ways. I think the
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: most effective is you have somebody managing it and they
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: bring those people in.
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: But it's much more than that.
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: It's about the communication throughout the organisation, letting people know
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: what's BSI, what's GuideMark.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: This is what we're doing.
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: This is what it means. People are going to come along,
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: maybe sit with you. So usually it's planned so that
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: people come in at different bits so that it's not
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: too resource heavy. And so they're just there for the
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: bits they need. I mean, you'll get people for the
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: most part, maybe directors or managers want to come in
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: for longer. But generally, And you can have one person
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: running it or sometimes they'll have a team doing it.
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: It just depends on the organisation, resource, commitment, et cetera.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I love the point you raised about the communication.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: It's vital, isn't it, that all of that is communicated
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: to every single person in the organisation. You know, this
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: is what we're looking to achieve. You know, we need
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: you on board. You know, you will be asked questions
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: or we may be asking, you know, for you to
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: provide information or for you to just come on board and, yeah.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: sort of share your thoughts so it's it's important isn't
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: it that everybody does get on board and they understand
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: that this is the reason why we're doing it this
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: is this is what we're looking to achieve with this
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: and we need your help to help us achieve that.
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: And quite often that's where the passion comes from because
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: the frontline people are the ones that are dealing directly
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: with the customers and knowing that that you're involved in
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: that journey and at the end when you get certified
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: I mean it's such a big celebration and they feel
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: like we've been part of that you know we make
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: this we help these customers and you get almost a
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: bit of pride you know with getting the kite mark
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: because they know that because of them you know the
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: customers are getting all the.
• 26:25
  Speaker 4: Support that they need so yeah it's vital isn't it
• 26:29
  Speaker 4: so everybody everybody everybody wins um yeah I've heard some
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: good celebrations across the years oh have you people I
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: think the best one I've heard was an organization who
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: were so pleased to get certified they because they think
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: that you know because vulnerability is not a one size
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: fits all they celebrated with getting a load of pick
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: and mix sweets and they they had this whole pick
• 26:57
  Speaker 4: and mix bar where staff went along and got their
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: sweeties to celebrate because vulnerability is all shapes and sizes
• 27:05
  Speaker 4: and colors and i thought it was.
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: Amazing oh that's incredible Oh, brilliant. Yeah. And again, that
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: just brings everyone together, doesn't it? To say, look what
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: we've achieved collectively together. And yeah, this is what we
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: can do. And then hopefully that then sets up the
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: next project, whatever the business is moving on to next,
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: it brings in that collaboration and people can actively know, yeah,
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: I'm part of this bigger, bigger mission, bigger vision.
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: And it's always changing, you know, what's on the landscape,
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: which is a part of meeting the criteria as well,
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: is that horizon scan and, You know, if you just
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: said 10 years ago that we're going to go through
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: a pandemic and a cost of living crisis, you'd have
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: been like, yeah, OK. But we did, you know, and
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: it changed everything. So everything suddenly went online. People had
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: to adapt. People who went, you know, digitally savvy had
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: to learn. Organisations had to change to support like online
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: functions and then cost of living crisis, which sadly we're
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: still in. you know, is affecting so many people. So
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: the more you can do to improve your service and
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: support those people can only be a good thing.
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. And I think that's probably why sort of every
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: three years is probably a really good amount of time.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: You think actually so much can change within three years.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: I probably would have said prior to the pandemic, oh, yeah,
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: you know, three years is, you know, nothing's going to
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: change in three years. But then, yeah, all of a
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: sudden overnight that the whole world changed. And And it
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: has just been changing ever since, hasn't it? Even just
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: in those six years since the pandemic, customers are no
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: longer the same. They've got different and more challenging situations
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: going on. How they engage with organisations, what they need
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: from organisations has significantly changed.
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: They want more. Customers are more savvy. They want tailored services.
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: They want it for less money. They want it quick.
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: I mean, obviously, there will always be more in-depth queries. But, yeah,
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: customer behaviours has definitely changed a lot as well.
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. So just helping them to keep up with
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: that is key, isn't it?
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: Well, to some organisations, I mean, we see so much
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: great work going on across the industry, especially in finance,
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: you know, to support people in financial difficulty, you know, scams,
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: et cetera. I mean, some great work being done in
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: those areas to support people.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So I'm conscious of sort of
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: coming towards the end of our conversation today. So we
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: have covered a lot. We've covered sort of what the
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: standard is, what the kite market involves, where firms can start.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: Is there anything else you want to share with the
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: listeners today perhaps that we haven't covered or any top
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: tips that you want to share with them to help
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: them get started?
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: I think we've actually covered quite a lot. I think
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: the main thing is if they want.
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: to do to do more and and they want to
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: look at their own business and you know do a
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: sense check then get the standard you know and if
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: they're interested in certification then get in touch but i
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: think the main thing is just looking at your own
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: business and saying well where can we improve you know
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: there's always there's always something um that you can change
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: that you've maybe not thought about um or even speak
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: to other organizations who are doing well you know but
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: um Yeah, we're here if people need to talk in
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: a bit more depth and learn more about it. But
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: I'd say just by the standard and, you know, have
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: a look through it. It could even spark something to say, well, actually,
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: do you know what?
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: We don't do that.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, brilliant.
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: I mean, obviously, we'd love them to come to BSI
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: and talk to us, but....
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: Downloading the standard is the first step, isn't it? And
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: then they can get into audio absolutely. I will put
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: the link to the standard in the episode details. And
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: I'll also put your details in as well, Julie, so
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: that they'll have all those details so that they can
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: get in touch with you.
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: We're always here for questions. No questions is a silly question.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: Brilliant. Thank you. But thank you so much, Julie, for
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: coming along and sharing your thoughts on the standard. And
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: I know that it is really making a difference to it.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: to many organisations and to their customers and their colleagues.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: So thank you. Thank you so much, Julie.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: And thanks for having me along. I've actually really enjoyed it.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: It's been good.
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: Oh, brilliant. We always, we never run out of things
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: to talk about, do we, when we get together.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: I think after a few hours it might get bored,
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: but so will.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: And thank you too for joining us today. And I
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: look forward to you joining me on my next episode.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: Thanks, Helen.
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us for this episode of Unlocking Vulnerability.
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: If today's conversation has resonated with you, please feel free
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: to share it with others who may find it useful.
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: You'll find more episodes like this by searching Unlocking Vulnerability
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: wherever you listen to podcasts. If this episode has left
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: you with questions about any aspect of consumer vulnerability, I
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: regularly host free Q & A sessions on Zoom where
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: you're welcome to join the conversation. You can find out
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: more at HelenPettiford.com. Thank you for listening and please take care.