Latest / MaxValue Podcast / Why CPA Firms Can't Find Enough Talent ft. Anshul Agrawal

Transcript

Why CPA Firms Can't Find Enough Talent ft. Anshul Agrawal · MaxValue Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: What I like to say is always augment power plays.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: I've been into global expansion for 13 years.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the size, it's not the revenue, what needs for me.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: If I were to do it again, I'm not- I would probably call you.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: Looking for that specialty.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: They're looking for more control over their global response.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: How did you pick the locations where you sourced your talent from?
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: What's happening right now is there are farms worth coming in and telling me, we don't want to go to India.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: We're looking at Philippines.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: And when I present Philippines and Argentina to them, a lot of them, or all of them, at least for me, they chose Argentina.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Max Value, the show for business owners and their trusted advisors who are on a mission to maximize their value with business valuation, exit planning, strategy, and maybe even going global.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Ben Town.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: Today's episode features Anshuul Agarwal, the big guy over at June 15th Consulting.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: Today we're going to be talking about the possibilities available for professional service firms to use global talent.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Hey Anshul, thanks for coming.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, Ben.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's always a pleasure talking to you, and this is one of my favorite topics, so looking forward to it.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: Me too.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: So uh why why don't you give yourself uh give yourself, give us, give us a little bit about you as a self-intro, please.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I've been into global expansion for 13 years.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, prior to COVID, I was primarily working with Fortune 500 companies, helping them um expand into new markets, so helping them with product launches, market research, a lot of project management.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: After COVID, that game sort of changed and I stumbled upon an opportunity in the CPA world, where, as you know, there was not enough people here.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: People are looking to global talent, and so I started getting opportunities where smaller CPA firms, mid-sized CPA firms, they wanted to engage with global talent.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I started working with them.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: So it's been three years of helping CPA firms.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: I absolutely love this.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: I love the fact that I can talk to people from different cultures.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: I love the fact that I can get to be a bridge between those cultures.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: And uh yeah, this is this is something I'm very passionate about.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm glad I get to talk more about it with you.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: But that's a bit about me.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, thank you.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: And apropos of uh of your of your coffee there, uh, you know, I see the Tim Hortons.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: You you live in you live in Canada now, yeah?
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: I do, I do.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I was born in India, then I moved to the states as a teenager, then lived in New Zealand, and now I'm in Canada.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: So been around quite a while.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's wonderful.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: All all English speaking places, all English-speaking places.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well, very good.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: So uh what you had mentioned that you work with CPA firms of small and mid-size.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: What what does that mean to you?
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: So firms how big?
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: So when I say small, I'm thinking firms less than 10 employees, right?
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or even 20 employees.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so these are firms that are that range from solo practitioners to maybe two or three million in revenue.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what I define as small firms.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: For mid-sized firms, they could be anywhere from like three, five million all the way up to 20, 30 million.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think more than that, it's the mindset, right?
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's the mindset of a smaller firm where they want more control, they want um, they just want to do things their way, even if they do hire global talent.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, mid-sized firms have slightly more mature processes, mature understanding of things, but then they too also are more risk-averse than like maybe the larger firms.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that that's what I think uh when I when people ask me, right, what's your sweet spot?
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: I never tell them revenue, right?
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: I always tell them it's it's it's not the size, it's not the revenue, it is what these firms value.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: If they value control, if they value ownership, if they value better integration, that's those are the kinds of firms that generally work with me.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so let's back up then to what is it that you that you provide those firms?
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: So there's two ways to there's two or three ways to engage with global talent, right?
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: We so there's a traditional agency model where you give people work um and they do it for you, get it back to you.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that works well for a lot of firms.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: And as global talent, that structure is evolving, a lot of firms are now asking for more control.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like they want more control, they want more specialty, right?
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, what do you do?
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: Firms are looking for that specialty, they're looking for more control over their global resources, they're looking for more ownership.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: Traditionally, this control and ownership was only available to the bigger firms who would go to countries like India and Philippines, set up their entities, like spend a lot of money to bring in um experience, talent, and then build their own team.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: But and continue to train them, right?
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, build the talent in the team as well.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly, right?
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: So they would hire people like you and me who have experience working in with different cultures, and they would pay us a crap load to then build and train that team on the ground.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: But with small and mid-sized teams, how they still want that control, they still love the idea of the higher margin improvement, but they don't have the capacity, capability, or the risk-taking ability to do that themselves.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I help them do that.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: I help these small and mid-sized firms hire their own offshore employees in either Argentina, India, or Philippines.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I help them do this by providing them with three services.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: First is just knowledge, a lot of coaching, a lot of advisory across recruiting, strategy, training, all the pillars that you need for offshoring success.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: Second is local compliance.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: They don't need to register their own entity, they can use me as their employer of record.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I take care of local payroll benefits, all compliance, but the firm still has the ownership of the employee.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: They could switch vendors or they could go with a competitor anytime.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then the third is ground support.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: You may need office space, you may need help with travel arrangements, you'll need computers, so I take care of all of that.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: So with that package, it becomes accessible for a smaller firm to have that direct hire relationship with offshore employees.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what I do.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's how it is.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the um one of the reasons why you you and I are connected is that we have somewhat parallel uh paths.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, with with me and my business valuation and exit planning services, we have our own entity in India.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: But I tell you what, we are too small.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: If I were to do it again, I'm not, I would probably call you, frankly, to help us get that uh that entity and uh that presence in India set up because man, it was it was a challenge, it was a beast to for me personally uh to uh to go there.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and you know, I I thought it was interesting you just said travel arrangements because honestly, even the first time I I I went over to uh to visit the team, that was very hectic, you know, because I'm not a personally not a huge uh international traveler.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: There was a bunch of things that I just wasn't prepared for or you know, pre pre didn't have pre-knowledge of.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so everything like that is stressful.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: And guess what?
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: I you know, I'm a uh CPA by by uh personality and uh by trade, but uh that also means that you know little things that are you know not within my normal wheelhouse uh do stress me out a little bit.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um I will say.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: That I think you you've done everything right when it comes to offshore.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: We've talked about this uh quite a few times on your podcast, even.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, we did.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: And like your entire thing, right?
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: You went direct, you traveled, I think already like at least one or once or twice.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: You have a local partner who's like an expert at all these things.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: So you've done all of these things right.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: But as you said, right, it was a challenge.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it for a lot of firms, they that itself acts as a deterrence, uh deterrent to go direct.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: They're like, ah, I like the idea, but this is all just too much.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: And for certain firms or certain niches, it it should, because the return isn't there.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because what one thing you do need to have is the need for enough scale to make it worthwhile to engage with you um or do it themselves, which I don't recommend.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: I truly, truly don't, unless you're of a certain size.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that's where say, like what we do, we do valuation and forensic uh outsourcing.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: So that's when that becomes a real idea.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: Now you can have you know some scale, you know, particularly with uh with valuation niche practices, those sorts of things, where you're not talking about a 500-person firm or even a 20-person firm.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: If a if you have a 20-person firm, maybe you have one of the partners doing this kind of work and they need a quarter of a person kind of thing to help uh to help get the uh projects through, which is different.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: So that's definitely different than you know how setting up a tax practice or augmenting.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: And this is this is what I like to say, it's always augment, not replace, because we just need more accountants, need more CPAs, need more tax repairs.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh when you have that 20-person firm, let's say maybe they're looking for three people in another location to really help them out, just because look, they can't find those people easily.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: They're not competing with the large firms with in terms of their pay scale.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: They have other benefits, obviously, uh, but there are just not that many people out there to be competitive for.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so you help you help fix that problem right off right off the bat.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we help fix that problem, like you and me both.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I really like um what you said about so I tell everybody, right?
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: People think that I'm I don't like agencies or I'm not against that model.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's not true.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because, as you said, there's a lot of times where firms, it doesn't make sense for them to go direct.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and especially I I think the way the agency model is gonna evolve is more and more firms are gonna start doing what you have done, where they're gonna start niching down, and then you could provide other services, but then you have this one core pillar.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and for a small firm, as you said, who needs like a quarter of a person or even one full person, right?
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it may just make sense for them to just work with somebody like you who knows exactly what they're doing, who's the CPA over here, has a partner in India or offshore.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and there's like complete integration.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I I completely agree with what you said.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate that, Anshul.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, we definitely do compliment each other uh a lot, both compliment with an E and compliment with an I.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the um so how how did you pick the locations where you sourced your talent from?
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: So uh it I mean India sort of happened.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: My first client that uh they came to me, right?
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: He this guy was one of my oldest clients from my Fortune 500 time, and when he joined the accounting firm, he called me and he was like, Hey, I know you've done some global stuff in the past, but I want you to set up our own team in India.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: And we don't want to register our entity, we don't want to travel as much, we want you to do all the heavy lifting.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so they sort of came to me with India, and uh they they told me that we'll go wherever you want us to go in India, and they had like somebody recommended that go to Ahmedabad, that's where you're based.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: Right, and they came to me like, hey, here's a recommendation we got, but why don't you go do your own research?
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: So you India is a big country, and I'm a big fan of cities like Ahmedabad because they're tier two cities, they're not as big as Mumbai or Bangalore, which means that they're not as expensive, but they still have a lot of talent.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: And when I say it's tier two, I it's still I think 8 million or something in population.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: Gosh, yes, yeah.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so that's sort of how India came to be.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: And within India, like we could really work in any city, but there's no I don't see a reason why a firm would step out of Ahmedabad for now, right?
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: Unless they are like a top 20, top 30 firm and they want multiple offices.
• 13:10
  unknown: Right.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: Ahmedabad has to be one of those places.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: So that was how India happened, and then Philippines was just something I was looking at.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I want to be more objective in the advice I give my clients.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: If I only work in India, I'm only gonna recommend India to them.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I started looking at Philippines as well, and Philippines, uh, I haven't closed a client yet for Philippines because they're going to Argentina, and I'll talk about that in a second.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: But Philippines offers a really good alternative to India.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it is slightly cheaper, not cheap enough for you to not cheap enough for you to drive the decision, but it's cheaper.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um but the biggest benefit of Philippines is lower turnover.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't know if you've experienced turnover yet with your firm.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: Not really, but then you're really lucky.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's what Jake said.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but so Philippines has a place.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, one of the challenges with Philippines is I've been reading more and more that by 2030 they're gonna have a US style shortage.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: I was talking to a firm and they were like, we don't want to go to Philippines, we don't want to go to Philippines, we want to go to India.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I'm fine with that, but like why not Philippines?
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: And they shared this full report with me.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: I posted about that on LinkedIn and I got a lot of messages from Philippines saying that yes, I think we will have a shortage.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: So that was very interesting.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then I started looking at a third option because a lot of people were like, Yeah, we love offshoring, but we don't want to do India or Philippines because we want the same time zone.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: So then I started researching Latin America, and Argentina came up a lot.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I traveled to Argentina last year.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a full year, I was there last September.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I met students there, I met accountants, just checked out their digital physical infrastructure, and it was just great.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I was like, all right, that's that's the third option.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: So that's how it came to be.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: And what's happening right now is there are firms who are coming in and telling me we don't want to go to India, we're looking at Philippines.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: And when I present Philippines and Argentina to them, a lot of them, or all of them, at least for me, they chose Argentina.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: It was more expensive, but they value the time zone collaboration like a lot.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: So that's how the locations came to be.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: That that is interesting.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, we we run all of the valuation outsourcing from Ahmedabad in India.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but for for other things, like, for example, uh Geraldine, our uh podcast producer, is also, of course, our our virtual assistant, and she's out of Columbia.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: And there are absolutely some huge advantages to having, you know, quote, that near shore model, partly largely because of the time zone differences or lack of time zone difference.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: And and the and I will say the the culture is different.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: So it is a kind of a I heard somebody say uh the other day describe it as kind of a a Western philosophy type culture type uh uh country.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that made it that made a ton of sense because obviously there's there's a massive overlap with India in terms of culture, but it's still it's a still different culture, still very different.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but Latin America and obviously you know Canada, um much more similar in in certain ways, right?
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, they have there's there's you know distinctiveness anywhere you go, but it's not it never feels to me all that much more of a difference than say going from California to Florida.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: That that's at least as much of a difference as you know talking to somebody in in Colombia, as far as I'm concerned.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I think their Spanish is a little easier to understand in Colombia, but that's just maybe a maybe a personal preference.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um but yeah, uh the I I think it's great that you know you're this this this world traveler and you're tying pieces of the world together.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I I really, really appreciate that.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that's that's kind of a ulterior motive of mine as well.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: The more we the more we get together, you know, the happier we'll be, as they say, as the you know, the three-year-olds say.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: I I I truly believe that.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I truly believe that, you know, as we have vested interests in each other, the there's there's there's no reason to uh get into all these pissing matches, which we do over the rest of the world.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's uh that's gonna be a whole separate podcast.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: Getting a little philosophical here, yeah, for sure.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: But uh I you know so I I think when when there is a firm that's looking to expand in some way, and that could be a lot of things, just let's get more returns done during tax season, or we need a little bit more strength on our on our audit team so we don't burn everybody out.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: That could be that could be the growth.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: Or it could be hey, we want to scale and we want you know 50 people next year instead of 20, uh because they're they have different goals, etc.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: So what is the first best step when talking about global staffing in in your mind?
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: Education.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um firms need to educate themselves on all options in terms of offshoring models, in terms of offshoring locations, because there's so much half information, I don't want to say misinformation, but there's just like not complete pieces of information out there.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: And people use that to come up with their hypotheses, and then they don't just validate it.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of small firms, I hear like, oh, we can't go direct because we're too small.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of bigger firms are like, Well, we need to go direct because that's what everyone's doing.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, what is it the right thing for you?
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't matter what your competitor did or other firms what they're doing.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that is the fourth step.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um they need to educate, there's a lot of free education online, um, and a lot of good education in terms of videos, white papers, ebooks.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, our friend Lawrence, he just came out with a course.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so there's just so much out there that you need to educate yourself.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: Then the second step, sort of, or like a step one B would be talking to other firms, firms that you trust that have done this well.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: Talk to them about what worked for them, talk to firms who didn't do it well, like learn about what like why they failed at it.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think that is the most important first step is to learn and to talk to others.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: It it is a big step.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and and I would just add, you know, if you if you want to put a you know kind of an immediate next step, once you finally do pick a direction, or even multiple directions, uh, actually working with a with a company right now that is doing that has their own boots on the ground in India, but they may work with us for the valuation work because it's just such a different niche.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the uh the you know, the the when you finally are ready to go through that augmentation step, make it small.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to you don't have to hire a thousand people at a time, you know, right off the bat.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that's one thing I really appreciate about how your system works.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's not this giant, you know, build, operate, transfer model that you know you're gonna hire, you know, tens of people at least.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you can, I know you can.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: However, you know, it really, really works best.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: Let's get a person or or or even let's use some outsourcing first, see if our processes hold up well for this, see if our communication structure holds up well for this.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I think in addition to what you're saying, I really appreciate your perspective in in all our conversations.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: And we've done the presentations together, uh, et cetera, and I hope hope we do more in the future.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: The the fact is uh because it's not a one size fits all, you really are upfront about that.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I really appreciate that because that's that that really fits into the you know my my conception of the CPA mindset and how we should be just providing good information such that people can make good decisions.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: So not everybody does, to your point.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of crap on the internet.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: Go figure.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: And you might come up with the wrong answer if you only listened to you know stuff you mined up yourself.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: You have to get that you know realistic perspective.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you know, I wrote smarter valuation outsourcing as a as a as an ebook, which you can which you can get for free.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: But even Even then, I wouldn't want somebody to just read that and decide, hey, this is how we're how we're gonna do things.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh there's when you're talking about staffing your firm of the future, you're really talking about a mix of things.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it's going to be a different mix of things for every single firm of different sizes.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's probably some element of global staffing, you know, whether that's outsourcing or uh boots on the ground.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's probably gonna be some more technological leverage.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, everybody's saying AI right now, and I just don't want to say it, but I mean, yeah, probably AI.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, it's augment, not replace.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: So we're still, of course, talking about having a solid core here in domestically, wherever domestically is, for you, maybe it's Canada, maybe it's the US, maybe it's California.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but but at the same time, you you can't, I don't think you can ignore any of those three pillars uh completely.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: You shouldn't.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: And once you figure out what that mix is, you know, people like you can help that out.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think what you said is very important, where people aren't always upfront about the realities of offshoring, right?
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I I think that happens a lot.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of us vendors are to blame.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: I guess people talk more about the positives, that's just how people are marketing it.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I I feel there's an element of that, and I I haven't told you this, but one thing I've really appreciated about you is you're a straight shooter.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like I've seen that in the emails that you write, I've seen that in just how you talk.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: You're very clear and upfront about everything, and I've loved that about you.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I know I never like when we never talked about this, and I'm not just saying this because I'm on your podcast.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but although you're welcome to, thank you.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but like every time like I talk to you, I was like, I this is something I need to learn from Ben that he's like he's he's not afraid to speak up, and he's like so clear about if he has a question, he has a question.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: If he doesn't like something or if he wants clarification, he's just like he always talks um off the like I like every time like I've seen that, and I I love that.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: So we need more people like you in the offshoring profession who are straight shooters that hey, yes, this would work for you, this would not work for you, or this is what you need to do.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that then again, that goes back to part of the education, right?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: Firms need to look at some domestic drivers, they need to look at some global talent, they need to look at AI or technology or automation.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I feel any firm that's not doing one or even one of these, they're gonna miss out.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I also feel so I want to tell me what you think about this.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: CPA profession is a very relationship-driven business, and the way accounting firms are approaching at least offshoring, is if they know somebody who knows something about offshoring, they're just going to that person and they're saying, Hey, I think you've done something or you know something, can you get this done for us?
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then that person is maybe not fully educated about this, they don't maybe they're not an expert, and then they're just making decisions based on half information, misinformations.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's how a lot of firms are getting in trouble.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: Where instead of seeking out somebody who really knows what they're doing, they're going to somebody they already know.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I understand trust is important, it's important every industry, but they're just going to somebody they know, even though they may not have the full knowledge, and they're ending up with solutions that don't work for them.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes that's agency, sometimes that's direct, sometimes it's just a mix of everything.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, maybe I'm being more cynical, but have you like what are your thoughts on that?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: That that's really interesting.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: The so I I agree.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: Well, first off, trust is paramount.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if if you don't have that, then then don't do anything.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: Don't start.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: And to your point, just because you trust somebody doesn't mean that they're the most capable person in that in that role.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: It kind of reminds me of like when we when we sometimes run across a client where they've you know grown over you know decades and their business is doing well, but their their book books are kind of a shambles because they've you know had their same bookkeeper since you know when they were a three-person company and now they're you know 500 people or whatever it is.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: And just because you trust that person implicitly, and that has a huge place in it.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: But at some point you do need to add some skill um to the to the situation, and then that's that's very frequent.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the uh hopefully one of the reasons why you trust that person is because they have judgment, and the judgment should at some point lead them to realize that I I know a lot of things and I know you know how to operate in a certain country potentially, but that doesn't mean I know how to set up or vet a firm or whatever, right?
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: I do think one one of the advantages of using a vendor is that you can take small bites at a time and you can try it out and see how you do.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: Because one of the things that I really find is a big failure point is not having an understanding of what you need to do as a firm, as a company, uh, to set the expectations because it's it really is a two-way street, it's not just sending stuff over and getting it back, it's really about all right, how do we have the communication conduit?
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: How do we make sure that we uh have the right expectations?
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because what when when when you're in in an office shoulder to shoulder, you kind of you know, you can just say, hey, do you have this you know project done?
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: What's the status?
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that's just a you know a nudge.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: But you can't quite do that, even even if you're in a similar time zone with near shoring, but particularly when you're talking about the other side of the world, um, that time zone is you know both a superpower and the kryptonite.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: You can get stuff done overnight, but you also have to be much more disciplined with your with your procedures.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: So the failure point that I see most often is they don't the firms that I deal with, and they're they're usually smaller, may not have as robust systems and processes because they've never really had to.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's not that's not me, you know, kind of judging them.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: They they work perfectly well the way they work, but since they've never had to do that type of over-communication and uh discipline, I'll say, on a process that look processes add time and cost to things, they don't subtract it.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's just that uh you need to have them in order to create that leverage.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: So anytime you have leverage, there's gonna be a little bit of friction, and you want to make sure that there's as little friction as possible.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like good procedures do that.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I have found that to be kind of the case where oh, we don't have procedures.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: I thought we did.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, no, not not really.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: And even if you kind of do, you haven't written it down, you can't transfer that knowledge to somebody else.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so um I agree with what you're saying, uh, but also that's kind of been my my biggest personal experience is just people kind of aren't ready for it.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: So educating themselves, but then getting themselves ready based on that education.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think you hit on a good point where firms not being ready.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, as I'm working with firms, like even some slightly larger-ish firms, or large mid-sized firms, let's put it that way, and they really don't have the foundation in place to offshore, regardless of how they want to offshore.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: They don't have the right training materials, they don't have the right formats, they don't have the right IT stuff in place, right?
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you're offshore in patchwork, you need that 70 to 16 consent.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: People who don't who don't sign that consent, they need to be separated in the software.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: So once I walk people through everything that they need to do to get ready, like there's just a blank expression on their face.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I up until last year or even earlier this year, when people would ask me how long it takes to you know get this up and ready, I would say three and four months.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: But now what I've talked to some firms, I'm like, it's gonna take you at least six months before we can even think of offshoring.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: You need to do like so many things before that.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then if you're going direct, then you also need to like localize your HR documentation, so like handbooks, uh compliance, anything you want people to sign in the US, we have to localize it for like India or Argentina, wherever.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: So all of those things take time, and I think that's the missing piece in offshoring right now, where everybody, all offshore vendors are thinking, I'll help you with the offshore side.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: But there's so much work that needs to happen on the onshore side before they get offshore.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's the difference I'm seeing where firms are coming to me and like, hey, Uptop just signed a contract where we're gonna start building their office next year.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm working with them from now until like 30th April next year to just get these foundational stuff and things in place.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you could do all of this in four months, it can happen in parallel.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: But then how many firms have the bandwidth to do that?
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't think many.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: Hey everybody, I want to take a second here to share something about who we are and why we make this show.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: These episodes are for my business colleagues out there running professional firms and serving clients with the same commitment and integrity that we do.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: But we know that as demand grows, scaling evaluation, accounting, or tax practice without sacrificing quality can be a real challenge.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's wherevisors provides a solution.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: Our team of experienced professionals has a strong track record of delivering reliable results that firms can trust.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: If you're looking to scale more efficiently and strengthen your firm's capabilities, you can learn more about assurance advisors through the link in the show notes.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: You you yeah, exactly.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: I I think our I think our two, as usual, our two commentaries are, you know, are totally aligned with just you know a little bit of uh additional personal experience adding to adding to the equation on on both sides there.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: The the fact is that over time we've kind of come uh come from a position of, yeah, just being that outsource provider, quote unquote, to really working with people on their procedures and working on even sometimes things as simple as templates.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, you don't have to do it this way, but we've seen 10 other people do it this way successfully.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: So your your your call, and we can kind of help you create your own version of something that we you know we believe works.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and that's actually been really cool because it it's helped uh help firms that are like my firm, like town advisory, in you know, into a better, better spot with both more talent, but also a little bit better of a way to control that talent.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know, maybe one day you know some of them will be able to uh utilize you to actually have their own uh their their own entities.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: So is there anything else you wanted to uh to add on the on the topic?
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: I can't think of anything else.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean I think uh firms also need to know that there's a lot of work involved even after you start offshoring, right?
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: Regardless, there's it's it's not a plug-and-play solution, it's not gonna work right away.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um it takes years, not months or weeks, to get it right.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um first year, no matter what you do, there'll be a lot of wins, but they'll you'll identify a lot of roadblocks, a lot of things that you should have done.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: Second year is like I call the first year the year of learning.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: Then the second year is the year of optimization, where you'll get rid of most of these major roadblocks and you'll start to see a lot more wins.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: And you get a sense that, hey, this could actually work.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: And year three is your year of celebration where you would get amazing results, you'll get all the things offshore people love to promise, but it takes a while.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I mean the journey could be shorter for a firm, but it's definitely like an effort.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's kind of funny.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: I that that's definitely more uh more uh positive.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and again, this is where maybe maybe I should I should be more positive.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I kind of think of it as like a rookie season for that first year where you know there's obviously some great things and obviously some some less great things, uh, but then really it's your second season where you kind of figure out, okay, what what do you really have?
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you can you know what can you really produce on on an ongoing basis, and then of course, you know, into the future you have you know you have that that great career.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because you know, it with you particularly setting up a uh an office or or uh you know a clutch of uh of employees, it it's not easier than setting up a new office domestically, obviously.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's all of that, plus all of the things that you have to do, uh either the firm themselves or you on shall uh need to do for them in order to even get set, let alone the ongoing compliance, let alone the management of those people, the hiring, firing, recruiting, retaining, whatever.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a it's adding a whole nother layer uh of of experience, which at the end of the day, shout out to my guys at uh assurant, and by guys I mean the men and women, they're awesome.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it's been personally enriching uh to me to have them in my life and in my business.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it it's better, you know, things are better because they're they're here and part of part of the team.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: So thanks guys.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh um okay, so let's uh let's just do kind of like a little bit of a you know a get to know you uh round, um, just a couple of questions.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um like tell me something about you that's not on LinkedIn.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um I used to be a face reader, I don't do that anymore.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: What's a face reader?
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: So basically, um I I I read a lot of books on face reading where you could look at somebody's face and you could sort of describe what their personality was like, what their attributes were like.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: So things like if somebody's impulsive or if somebody's short-tempered, uh, somebody's indecisive, things like that.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I used to do that a lot, especially like when I was younger, helped with dating and everything.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: So uh giving dating advice or just selecting the right person for yourself?
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: No, just like breaking ice and all of that.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like a pickup line, better than a pickup line.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: All right, all right, got you.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, wait, wait.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: We're we're going, we're gonna we're going off uh there's no script anyway, but we're going way off uh script here.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: What what what it what what do you read?
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm reading I'm not saying that on camera.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: Nope, nope, nope, I've gotten in trouble for that.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: But uh next time we meet, yeah.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: I I you need to remember, I've not been I've not done this for like 10, 12 years now, but I still got some left.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: But it's the idea was this was just for fun.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: I have no idea if there's a science behind it or sounds like phrenology for sure.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, so it was just like just for fun, and uh, but so yeah, that's something about me.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: People confuse it with mind reading, it's not mind reading, I can't tell what people are thinking, but it was just a fun exercise after a few drinks and just talking, and um, so yeah, that's not on LinkedIn and that will never be on LinkedIn.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, maybe now it will be, but uh you know, it anything to uh to elicit a question, right?
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: I have I have in my LinkedIn I have uh the the the word ultra apatologist, which is a word that I made up, which means business uh valuation.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh somebody who studies business valuation.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: I've gotten some questions on it.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of cool.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so what are you reading?
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: We're always trying to improve ourselves.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I I read a lot of books to do that.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what you know what you're doing, listening to a podcast or reading, or you know, watching, you know, watching shows or whatever.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: What what is it that you're doing?
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so um I've been a little behind on my reading, but here's what uh I love to read.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sort of stopped reading nonfiction.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: I just felt like I don't want self-help books, I don't want to read about business because my mind's already thinking enough about it.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: So now for the last few years, I've been focusing a lot more on fiction.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I would read anything that I would want to watch on Netflix, I would read that.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I would read a lot of historical fiction.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I so I love reading about what life was or what life could be in different times, different countries, different societies.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: I love that genre.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: So historical fiction, right?
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I love reading about um the 1700s, 1800s in the US.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: That time just fascinates me.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I mean, US has a very uh difficult history.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: There's like difficult parts to uh the country's history for from that time, but I like to read about that.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um I love to read about uh the refugee crisis, right?
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: We talk so much about refugees, immigrants, illegal immigration.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I've read quite a few books on stories, like fictional stories of people who are in that situation.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I love to like understand that part of uh it.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: I love sci-fi, right?
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: I love sci-fi.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like if I love post-apocalyptic stuff.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: I like to think about if X happened, how would we react?
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then I also like to look back.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I love we're gonna have to go off on that one one of these days offline.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: That that's that's actually my one of my favorite genres too, post-apocalyptic science fiction.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: I I love that.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I've just been reading Kyla Kyla Stone, that's her name.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: She has like a full series on Kindle, like Amazon uh Edge of Collapse or Edge series.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: It was really just simple stuff, um, nothing that we haven't seen on TV before.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: But that's really good.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I was just reading, so I told you I don't do nonfiction, but I was just reading this book, Apple in China.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: So it was very interesting about how Apple and China are so integrated with each other.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it after reading that book, like I'm still going through that, but it just seems like Apple seems more like a Chinese company than American company.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's just the way it's integrated, and so that helps me understand, right?
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: When we talk about you know bringing manufacturing jobs back, we talk about all of those things.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's very interesting to see how dependent Apple is on China.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so again, this is just based off of one book, but it I I love that, so that has been very interesting.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, that's that's what I've been reading recently.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: And uh um what do I want to read next?
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, I don't have a next book.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to find a good book, and it's been a few weeks I've not been able to find a good one.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: But uh the one I've been the one I've been recommending recently is the um uh The Worlds That I See by Fei Fei.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, the Worlds That I See.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: Okay is good.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um the uh mostly I'm on audible these days because I don't have time otherwise.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: But I can tell I can tell you're a uh you're an avid reader because that you you didn't need a lot to really set you off there.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I can't.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: I have so I I didn't read a whole lot until I was 30.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: I hardly read maybe a handful of books, but then after 30, I was like, I I need to get into a habit of reading.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I have a friend who's like an avid reader, and I told him, like, I I hate reading all of these self-help books.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: I just I want to read to relax.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: And he's told me that don't focus on nonfiction, go for fiction.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: So when I started, I was like, all right, what's what's the next show I'm gonna watch on Netflix?
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: If that's based on a book, I'll pick up that book.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so then I started getting into it.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: So my goal was to read like 60 books uh every year.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: So last year I got close, like somewhere in the 50s.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: This year I'm really behind.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think I'm just at like 10 or 15 books this year.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: But uh well, you do have a you do have a lot of long plane flights, so you can you can catch up.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I that's when I was like last year I was traveling last or last to last year, I was traveling a lot to India.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I would just finish a book on like on a 14-hour plane ride.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: You could finish a book, so I would do that a lot.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: But here, like within the US and Canada, it's like one or two hours, right?
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it's I mean, I could still read it, but I've just been just been a bit lazy these days about reading.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_00: But uh yeah, I I do love to read um mainly fiction now.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think you can learn a lot from metaphor and allegory, and that's what absolutely fiction and science fiction is for the real world.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's very cool.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: Cool, man.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: I learned something new about you.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's wonderful.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: So uh where where can people find you if you want to be found?
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: LinkedIn is the best way.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I am very active on LinkedIn.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you are.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: I if you if anybody needs to talk to me about uh what I do about offering or anything really where I could be uh of help, LinkedIn is the best place to reach out.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I'm sure we'll include the link in the show notes.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, absolutely well.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Anshu, this has been awesome.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: I've I've learned a lot from you, and we've had some great conversation.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate you uh joining us on Max Valley Podcast.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Ben.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's always a pleasure talking to you, and uh um I hope we can do a round two sometime soon.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: That'd be cool.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do it.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome, thank you.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's a wrap.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: You've been listening to Max Valley Podcast, and if this podcast provided any interesting information, hit that subscribe button, smash the like and drop a comment below.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Ben Town with the turn advisors.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: Catch you next time.