Latest / Beyond the Paycheck / Sharon John, VP Global Total Rewards & Mobility at Thoughtworks
Transcript
- Kelsey Willock (00:00) Welcome Sharon John, Global Head of Total Rewards at ThoughtWorks. We are beyond excited to have you today. So to kick us off, I'd love for you to introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about where you're calling in from, your current role today, and a little bit about your career and background. Sharon John (00:17) Thank you very much, Kelsey. ⁓ I'm very excited to be ⁓ joining you on the conversation today. I'll start with a quick brief about myself. I'm Sharon John. And like you said, I manage global total rewards and mobility at ThoughtWorks. I've spent the last couple of decades helping both public and privately held organizations make sense of pay, benefits, and mobility in a world that pretty much never was still. My background is in building strong reward advisory and designing structures that are fair and relatable. I've worked from complex mergers and acquisitions to building global COEs across several sectors. And more recently in tech, fintech and financial services. I'm a firm believer that rewards should help people understand their value in the organization. ⁓ but at the same time also equip leaders to storytell using robust data. These days, I'm particularly interested in how technology and AI reshape the way we think about paying benefits at work while adapting to pay transparency as stable stakes. And at heart of it, I'm really grounded in the basics, good governance, a thoughtful design and keeping things relatable. Kelsey Willock (01:38) Well, I'm really excited to dig deeper into all of that, particularly around your comment on AI. So you better believe we're going to be asking some questions about it. And it sounds like you've just had such a rewarding career. Thank you for sharing that. So before we dive in to the workforce and AI and all of the total rewards things, I want to get to know you a little bit better. So if you'll indulge me, I'd love for you to share with our audience a little bit about your earliest money memory. Sharon John (02:08) My earliest memory, like many others, comes from watching how my parents managed their finances. They ran quite the tight ship. Most months were about making ends meet, and they did it with a level of discipline that felt completely normal at the time. Only later did I realize how much intention sat behind those choices. There was nothing extravagant, nothing wasted. every decision seemed to have a purpose and somehow things balanced out by the end of the month. That environment shaped how I think about money even now and it really taught me that security isn't about what you have but more about understanding your boundaries, planning sensibly and thinking through the choices that you not just make for yourself but also for people dependent on you. Kelsey Willock (03:03) It's really not just about what you have, it's what you do with it. And it sounds like you have an incredible foundation, particularly from your parents. And not everyone is actually as lucky to have, so glad to hear that they had such a positive influence on your life. Can you tell me about your first job and what you did with your first paycheck, if you can remember? Sharon John (03:24) yes, so just going back really, my first job came with that rush of pride that you probably just get only once. And I knew straight away what I wanted to do with my first paycheck. I bought my mom a lovely Indian sari and my way of saying, thank you, mom, this one's for you. Not long after she fell ill and never had the chance to wear it. She eventually told me to wear it instead, which I have over the years. But there's still a tiny part of me that wishes she'd it at least once. Looking back, that paycheck taught me that, to your point earlier, money isn't just about what you can buy or afford. It's about those experiences, memories, moments, and intentions that stay with you much longer than anything else. Kelsey Willock (04:16) This is such a touching story because as you can imagine, I asked this question a lot and a lot of it's, know, I used it to fill up my car with gas for the first time or buy candy at the store after doing my mowing job. It's such a selfless act to buy that sorry for your mother. And I'm sorry she wasn't able to wear it, but I imagine that was a deeply profound experience to wear it yourself. Can you tell me a little bit about how this story, whether it is the values your parents passed down, your first job or how you spent it, has influenced how you see and show up for pay and benefits on behalf of your employees? Sharon John (04:55) It does. It has inculcated the basic value system, if you will, that is led by principles and is not impulsive. It's not spontaneous on the moment. It's thought through. It comes with thinking ahead in terms of what does this mean? How is it going to be perceived? And more importantly, what's the value that's going to be passed on? So I think The way I look at rewards, designing rewards across organizations, various people groups really stems from the early principles that I've been exposed to. Kelsey Willock (05:35) Shifting a bit into today's challenges, compensation-wise, benefits-wise, even getting into how AI is impacting such rapid change in the workforce. Can I start off and be really curious to learn from you where you see compensation and benefits breaking down most often today. Sharon John (05:54) It really, ⁓ from how I see it, compensation and benefits, total rewards pretty much usually break down at the foundation when we've skipped the basics. Employees aren't given pay education, they don't see the underlying frameworks like job architecture, and then here we are jumping straight into pay transparency. Without that groundwork, transparency creates confusion rather than provide clarity. market volatility these days combined with shrinking budgets only amplifies this. As we know, it pays moving faster, benchmarks shift quickly, and employees can almost see these swings instantly. And without understanding the system behind these decisions, or indeed a sound methodology that drives it, pay decisions can feel ⁓ quite personal. And layered on top of that, many employees really aren't having those meaningful discussions with their managers, all in the backdrop of overwhelming automation all around. So the context to pay decisions and the reassurance is not always conveyed to the employee. So in my mind, the real issue is not just equity or transparency, it's the science behind pay and taking people along with us will either make or break trust. in what we used to refer to as the psychological contract that is entered into while someone signs on the terms and conditions of your employment contract. Kelsey Willock (07:30) How do you empower managers to more effectively relay those conversations and especially explain that methodology? Is it about informing them more directly or communicating the importance of that trickle down conversation? Sharon John (07:46) Yeah, one of my almost trusty steps I always fall back on is to remove the jargon from compensation and total rewards. And a lot of times us professionals in this space seem, well, would like to hang on to that for dear life's sake. And it's about time that we kind of shed some of the technicality around it. ⁓ But really driving it down to How do we storytell with that? How do we equip our line managers, walk them through the employee life cycle right from the time when you're attracting individuals to join your organization through selecting folks to actually take up those roles to when you are looking at pay, retention, performance decisions, and then eventually through to career progression. It's to enable them with the toolkit. take managers through the journey. And managers, while we use the term more loosely, could be managers right from junior to mid-level managers, supervisors, going straight all the way up to your executives and the board. And being able to provide and equip them with tools at timely intervals. This could be at the launch of a large program or project that you're looking at, for example, job architecture. It could be... ⁓ explaining a pay benchmarking process, talking about benefits launches and saying, hey, we need you to sponsor this for us. We need you to be visible. We need you to A, understand, and then B, do all of these great things. And so that we then get the buy-in. And when the communication goes out eventually to our target audience, it doesn't come across as one-sided. hey, somebody in the back end designed this. But it's about taking ownership and really coming across as unified in our messaging. Kelsey Willock (09:39) love that you bring up jargon because we so often want to over complicate the benefits we provide folks because they can appear, if you can read through the jargon to be so much better. But if we lack understanding of what those benefits are, the value won't be received. So I love that you're thinking about it in the context of let's simplify. Simplify will lead to a better understanding of value and happier people, essentially. Sharon John (10:08) Absolutely. Kelsey Willock (10:10) So I'm super curious. You have mentioned a little bit about AI and how that's changing the workforce. And maybe your answer will be how we're leveraging AI. But I'm super curious how you're seeing change enacted at the company that's helped move from attracting talent to transforming the lives of your employees. Sharon John (10:31) Yeah, that's a great question, Kelsey. You know, the shift really has to be about how do we transform people's lives? How does reward enable people's lives rather than the other way around? Years ago, when I was working in engineering, I designed a benefits program that was centered around the entire employee life cycle, right from entering the workforce through to starting a family, progressing in career and eventually preparing for retirement. The communication of the programs was based solely on visual representation and the focus was on health and wellness at the heart of it. It proved to be genuinely transformative. It really showed folks that rewards wasn't just transactional, it was a reflection of the organization caring about lives in a meaningful way. And I think that can be powerful. Another powerful inroad is also career progression. Not just... showing a career path on fancy slides, but importantly, enabling people to succeed along with it, right? And mostly when I've introduced job architecture across organizations, we've spent time articulating how career growth can be achieved. In practice, this would come by working alongside individuals and identifying their passions and saying to them, hey, do you wanna... progress as an individual contributor, be seen as an expert as an SME, or do you actually want to grow as a line manager, as a people manager? This of course means that we invest time to build capability and it sends out a strong signal that we genuinely support people's growth and that their development matters here. I think it has the real propensity to excite people. It also... ⁓ beats the trend of short-term corporate gains and says, we are in it for the long haul. This may mean that we even upskill and show growth paths that may exist both within the organization but also externally. Kelsey Willock (12:37) It also acknowledges that everyone has their own intentions with their career and that looks different for everyone. So supporting the career trajectory that each individual has, I imagine, leads to a far happier workforce. Not everyone wants to be a manager. Some people do wanna just really get really deep and so giving them the opportunity to say, you don't need to be a manager, be an SME, we're just as supportive with that. is a really unique approach because I've found, I've certainly found myself in places where, if you're not on the linear path, then it's easier to the company. Sharon John (13:12) Yeah. Kelsey Willock (13:17) What kind of measurable impact are you looking for when enacting those types of changes? And, you know, it could be about engagement, could be about retention, feeling more empowered. What do you specifically seek, Sharon? Sharon John (13:31) Yes, certainly retention and engagement. but also clarity in a world that will be driven by paid transparency, which really will become table stakes as we were talking about earlier. It's not just publishing data, it's about explaining structures and making sure that there's a method. And there's always this debate whether compensation is an art or a science. And I've always taken the stance that it's a bit of both. and being able to relay the methodology irrespective of whether we achieve retention or engagement even with how we do it to have a solid communication approach and empower managers to take those day-to-day pay decisions in a way that they feel equipped to do. I think those would be my goals and eventually it will lead to greater trust and transparency, but it's not going to be of course overnight. Kelsey Willock (14:34) You've mentioned a lot about pay transparency and the importance of pay equity. Are there specific tools or data sets that you're using to meaningfully improve how employees are understanding? You've already mentioned communication is so key, but are there specific tools that our audience can take away? Tools that ThoughtWorks has specifically purchased from outside the firm? Are you building in-house? Walk me through how that's working at the company. Sharon John (15:02) Yeah, so we have looked at pay transparency in a fashion that said we understand that there's compliance in different geographies that we operate in. However, we want to go one step further in actually saying that we believe in that and we're committed to making pay transparent in all the regions, whether or not we're required to do it. purely by mandate. And so what this has meant is we've been on a fast track program to get to transparency, which has essentially meant us, you know, sort of taking, working backwards in looking at all the foundations that they've been in place to be have, you know, the story behind it. We, as we have launched transparency in three out of the five regions, we are increasingly looking at tools. We haven't quite found up on which ⁓ vendor or tool we're going to settle down with. But we are looking at tools that will give us the ability to look at behind the scenes simulations to pinpoint inequities, look at remediation, especially having specific ⁓ directives in mind, such as the EU paid directive, for example, so that running these back end modeling will help us understand how do we use our limited budgets. on spends that are relevant and meaningful. So we keep making shifts to being fully ⁓ pay equitable. Kelsey Willock (16:36) It's great that you're finding tools that are also allowing you to see from a regulatory perspective, are we meeting those requirements? It's not just about the data itself. It's how are you using that data? And is it an adherence of the law? I imagine specifically for a company like ThoughtWorks, a global company, that becomes complicated very quickly. So looking ahead, what compensation and benefits trends do you think will shape the employee experience most over the next year? know next year is hard because technology is changing so rapidly. Sometimes people want to say, I can only speak to the next quarter. But in your opinion, the next year, the best you can. Sharon John (17:17) Yeah, and I suppose extending that to let's say 12 to 24 months, give or take, I think the top trends that will shape employee experience would be skills-based pay, expanding what pay transparency laws mean. And if I'm allowed a third, then personalizing benefits would be the other part of it. Skills-based pay is slowly becoming the new currency. It lets compensation keep pace with rapid market shifts, especially in tech, for example, and gives employees a clear path to grow their value by upskilling. It also, at the same time, will force organizations to be more honest about what they truly reward, which is capability and not just tenure or title. Of course, this also means that there is an opportunity for organizations to relook hot skills such as AI and others, if they've not really already done so in making interim retention pay decisions. Whereas on the other hand, transparency will push companies to explain structure. So I think those two trends will shape the market. Employees will... expect to understand how their role is valued, how progression works, and why two people doing similar work can't pay the same, for example. So this will have to be supported by a mindset shift that is more wide and guardrails to explain total rewards. ⁓ Because I think increasingly we are seeing that traditional benchmarking isn't foolproof because markets are moving very rapidly. And we've got to get to a place where we pair external benchmarking with constant timely performance feedback that relates to growth and pay outcomes. And it's also incumbent on HR, leadership, and the people and the business teams to be able to hold that fair line between internal equity and external competitiveness, especially if you look at newer skills coming in and paying premiums for those skills. So the way I look at it, it's really a thoughtful communication strategy will be the secret sauce in how we deliver some of these key trends that may likely unfold. Kelsey Willock (19:41) So I want to double click on that because as we shift to this trend of skills-based pay, I'm super curious if there's upskilling going on at the company and if that's something that you're finding as a trend. For example, I recently spoke to someone that's company was encouraging them to take classes in AI to better improve their positioning at the company. Or is the company seeking this type of expertise externally? How do you approach that? Sharon John (20:12) Yeah, that's great question, Kelsey. And ⁓ it really depends on where organizations are in terms of identifying their capabilities. For an organization like ⁓ ThoughtWorks, which is essentially AI consulting as we look to a major part of how we deliver business in the years going forward, we already have capability in-house. what we constantly do an inventory, skills inventory and a capability almost, you know, just a recording of what we have internally, what we need in the new year. And we called it almost the build, the buy or the borrow, you know, levers to be able to identify. And I think it's going to be a good mix of identifying ⁓ the skills that we have in-house, but also encouraging cross-pollination between teams in showing the career paths we've been talking about. Can folk really ⁓ learn AI to do it on the job? But are they also equipped to do higher order consulting, for example, in being able to really look at taking on more? And this then automatically relates to skills-based pay and showing the progression as you upskill, as you train, as you ⁓ acquire certifications and you're recognized both within and outside the organizations. Then your pay will start to reflect all of those inputs that you put into showing your skills. So I think it's going to be quite an interesting trend to watch out for. as we are still quite in early days of seeing this unfold, a lot of organizations, especially some solid work done by Mercer in the space of identifying skills inventory and how do we, let's say, even classify skills capability in terms of looking at a scale of zero to five, for example. So yeah, so think it's a great space to keep our eyes out. Kelsey Willock (22:11) Yeah, I'm certainly excited to see where that heads and I even personally, working at a smaller company, I'm always interested in that upskilling. And I also love how you mentioned that kind of encouragement of cross pollination because you don't always need to learn it, but you do need to know where within your organization you can leverage that talent. ⁓ if it doesn't make sense. So I love that phrasing you used, build, buy or borrow, and that could be borrowing from another team, the expertise. So it's brilliant. So last question for you before we start to wrap up. I'm curious if you have a 30-day experiment listeners could try to boost financial well-being or engagement at their own companies. Sharon John (22:58) That puts me in the spot quite literally. But I can probably talk through how I look at it. And I think it's coming to that point in the year, right, which is a natural time and space to look at finances and financial well-being at the end of the year, but looking more into what the new year will look like and intentions and resolutions in the next few days. Kelsey Willock (23:01) Thank you. Sharon John (23:24) I think for personal ⁓ financial planning, the 50-30-20 rule is something that has helped me along the way. And just to be able to recap, that's 50 % of what you need versus 30 % of wants. And then that leaves you with 20 % for savings or investments. And of course, looking at it, you also want to have the rainy day fund, which would be at least three to six months of living expenses and accessible savings. And we've increasingly moved out of spreadsheets in being able to leverage online budget calculators, which support on mortgage planning, on schooling ⁓ fees and so on and retirement planning. So I think these are great tools to be able to think about use. And it just doesn't necessarily have to be. that first month of the year with all good intentions, but almost that personal accounting that we can build in to be able to almost level up on financial planning. Kelsey Willock (24:32) Thank you so much for sharing it with us, Sharon. It's not just important to start going back to the gym in January. You also want to get your financial fitness in order. And those are some really great tangible ways in which people can improve it personally. So I just want to thank you so much for spending the time with me today. I learned a ton from you. And I am deeply touched by particularly the story you had shared about your mother and buying her a sari with your first paycheck. Some other things that I took away from this conversation are that breakdowns happen when we skip the basics. Now, benchmark shifts so quickly. And if you don't understand, if people don't understand why we make certain decisions, that's really where breakdowns happen. So remove the jargon if you really want to see better communication with leaders and employees. Another thing I took away was that skills-based pay is becoming the new currency. I loved that. I haven't heard it. before, and I think you're absolutely right that that's where the future is heading. As well as love that you're doing skills inventory. It sounds like Mercer has some really interesting work, so please do check it out if you haven't already to really assess within your organization whether you should build by or borrow something. So thank you again, Sharon, for joining us today. If our listeners want to connect with you, where is the best place to do so? Sharon John (25:56) Thank you, Kelsey. That's a great summary. And I couldn't have done justice the way you did. So ⁓ I'm on LinkedIn and happy to connect via LinkedIn or ⁓ also via email. My email is sharonjohn.oct at gmail.com. So either LinkedIn or my email. And I hope this has provided some insights to think through as we close the year. Kelsey Willock (25:59) you Well, I hope you enjoy the rest of 2025. We're wrapping up quickly, but thank you for spending the time with us today. Have a great run. Sharon John (26:30) Thank you so much, Kelsey, enjoyed the chat.