Latest / Inside The Consulting Room - Understanding the Child Behind the Behaviour / Recovery After The Empath Avoidant Trap

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Recovery After The Empath Avoidant Trap · Inside The Consulting Room - Understanding the Child Behind the Behaviour

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome back.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: This is Kim Lee, Child and Adolescent Psychotherapist.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: I want to welcome you back to this final episode in the series When the Empath Meets the Avoidant.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Before I do this final episode, I just want to say thank you to people who have been in touch and very kindly left their appreciative remarks about the podcasts.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: You're very welcome, and I'm glad they're helpful.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think I should also reference that not everybody's quite as grateful as you, and there appears to be one or two people who rather think that I'm using this platform as a means of expressing something personal.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there's nothing like a creative response, and that was nothing like a creative response.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: However, let's let's proceed.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: This episode is about recovery.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: And if you remember in the last episode, I concluded by talking about the three stages, the the recognition, and that is the realization of what it is that's been experienced over probably a very long time, and allowing oneself to see things for what they really are, what they have been.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: And that's probably the most difficult of the three stages because it requires us to say that which we have been not saying.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: And once we do say, it can't be unsaid.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: When we see, we can't unsee.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it's painful.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: And and I I think this this applies for any to this applies as much to the avoidant as it does to the empath.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's just that the empath will do it much more quickly, and the avoidant won't.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's what tends to happen, the delayed recognition.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: But whenever it happens, it's difficult.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: This then gives way, this recognition gives way to the stage that I've called the reckoning.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: The reckoning is the active phase in which decisions are made, decisions which are probably less to do with the other person and more to do with the self about how to be and what not to be, what to do and what not to do.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: One of the most powerful things that empaths do when they're in at the reckoning phase is they avoid direct confrontation because that keeps them trapped in the emotional field.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: What they do instead quite often is just to disappear quietly, and they will not re-enter the emotional field because they realize that by doing that they're actually keeping something toxic alive in themselves.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: There are, of course, occasions, and this is something I perhaps should have covered earlier, there are occasions where they don't have the luxury of withdrawing and disappearing because the person in their lives may be somebody who they have to have contact with.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean they can't make those changes internally, but they may still have the necessary contact.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking about marriages, families, uh, or occasionally those situations where the empath gets pulled into something which they have no choice but to deal with, and that puts them back in in the in the sort of relational proximity, which is very difficult.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the general rule here is that the reckoning is about making decisions that are to do with boundaries, and by doing this, it's and it's not punitive, it's self-protective, and it's survival and it's necessary.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: And this precedes the final phase, and we call this recovery.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: So let's focus on that.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: Over the last five episodes, we have explored different elements attraction, attachment, pursuit, withdrawal, disappointment, damage, departure, and finally the reckoning.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: So this next stage is about recovery.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: But I want to say something first of all that people may need to hear.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: Recovery is not reconciliation.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: That would simply be returning to the scene of the crime.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: Recovery is not getting them back, and recovery is not about proving your worth.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's not about winning, it's not about hearing the apology that you deserved.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's not watching somebody finally understand what they lost.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: They may that that may very well be a parade, but it's not about looking for.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: So it's about something else entirely.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's the moment your life stops revolving around the wound.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: And this is all recovery really is.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: And the wound is still going to exist, and a scar may exist, and the memories will exist, but they no longer sit at the center of your life.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: And this is where the story ends.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: Not with the relationship, with the people who survived it.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: Let's begin with the empath.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because for many empaths, leaving wasn't the end of the struggle, it was the beginning of a different one.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: The relationship ends, the noise ends, the confusion ends, the disappointment ends, but something else emerges.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: And it's silence.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: And in that silence, many empaths discovered just how much of themselves they lost.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: For years they knew who the other person was, or at least they thought they did, what the other person needed, and what the other person feared, and what the other person most wanted.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: But somewhere along the way they stopped asking those very same questions about themselves.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: And this is where recovery starts, because it's not with another relationship and it's not with another rescue mission.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: It begins with themselves.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: The empath slowly starts returning to their own needs, their own feelings and desires, their own sense of themselves in their future.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then something remarkable happens.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because the energy that was once being drained by the avoidant and went into managing their needs and using all of the emotional availability that you had suddenly becomes available again.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: The energy that went into fixing, waiting, understanding, repairing, explaining starts to flow back into their own lives, and suddenly there's a space.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: Space for friendships, interests, space for ambitions, for joy, for peace.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: And for many empaths, that feels really unfamiliar at first because they've spent so long surviving that they've forgotten how to live.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that's one of the greatest discoveries of recovery.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: The empath eventually realizes they were never asking for too much, they were simply asking the wrong person.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this is really fascinating because sometimes when you see people in recovery, they have these surges where they have been effectively operating at a kind of just on or above the surface level.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: But then when you remove the incredible weight that has been placed on them, when you remove that, watch that person grow.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: They're capable of quite remarkable things.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: And they will, and that will be visible.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes the avoidant will say, How come they're doing this now?
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: And they join the dots and maybe realize, well, the empath is free now to be themselves.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: But let's talk about the avoidant, because contrary to what many people believe, although it's not common, recovery is possible for them.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: But it requires something they've spent most of their lifetimes avoiding.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: And this is the paradox.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: They've avoided honesty, not just about other people, but honesty about themselves.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: There comes a point when the empath might arrive at a crossroads.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, the avoidant might arrive at a crossroads.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: And they can continue blaming circumstances, blaming former partners, blaming incompatibility and basically everything, and blaming everyone except themselves.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: Or they can ask a different question.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: What role did I play?
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that question changes everything.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: Because recovery begins the moment responsibility replaces defensiveness, and when it when curiosity replaces avoidance.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a it's a very mature question to ask because actually the curiosity is about what was my part, not what did I do wrong, because they probably already know that if they're prepared to admit it.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, all right, let's go beyond that because that's the behaviour.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: But what's underneath it?
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, in a sense, the moment they stop asking questions like, why do people keep leaving me?
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: Why do people keep criticizing me?
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: Why do I keep having problems?
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: And instead start asking, what made staying so difficult for them?
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: These are different questions.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: One protects the ego, the other develops it.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: And if they're brave enough to ask it honestly, the avoidant discovers something extraordinary, that their greatest fear was never intimacy, it was exposure.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: Exposure to disappointment, exposure to rejection, or their failings being communicated to others, exposure to dependency and pain.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: And once those fears are faced directly, they begin losing their power.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: Not overnight, not dramatically, but steadily.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: But you have to consistently work at it.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something that the avoidant finds hard because it's painful.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: So perhaps the first time some kind of connection may become possible.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: Not because somebody's rescuing them, it's because they finally stop running.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this may be uncomfortable for both groups to hear.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: The goal of recovery is not to become an empath, and the goal of recovery is not becoming an avoidant.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: The goal is about becoming secure.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: Secure enough to stay present, secure enough to communicate, to tolerate pain, to tolerate the discomfort, to see enough to hear difficult truths, secure enough to love without disappearing, secure enough to be loved without running.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's what healing looks like.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's not perfection, it's presence.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: This is important because this is an unpalatable, for some, an unpalatable truth.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: It feels like it's way beyond reach.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Many people will return to, oh, but when I tried before I went wrong, or I can't do that because nobody is trustworthy, or this works for me just fine.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: These relationships didn't matter anyway.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: People are just oversensitive.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: People expect too much of me.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's always been that way.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, here's the simple truth.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: That was then, this is now.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: The person driving your life is you.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: You're not driven by your past.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: You can be, but you actually exist in the present.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: And this applies to both groups.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the fact that you have found yourself once again caught up in a pattern that has hurt you or has hurt others, there comes a point when you have to stop and say, How did that happen?
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: Not what did I do wrong?
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because very often, certainly for empaths, they don't do anything wrong.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe for themselves, they do.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: As therapists, we spend a lot of time reflecting.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: So, in a sense, what happens, and I speak personally, is that, you know, I'm with patients all day, every day, and during that time I'm monitoring my own internal reactions to things.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: I look at what something has what what something may have been activated in me.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: And children do this all the time.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: Don't intend to.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: People in pain do it all the time, and they don't intend to.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: And that's my work.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that's foreign because that's that's what I'm there for.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I can tolerate it.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: I can make sense of it.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: I don't need to solve it.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: I can be curious about it and notice it.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: But in relationships outside of my work, the same the the the same skills, not quite the right word to use, but the same curiosity also exists.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: How am I in relation to another?
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: What is my part in how they have been?
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: What and sometimes just why is it that right now I'm preoccupied with something or I'm experiencing a certain kind of thing?
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not it's not a puzzle to solve, it's called reflection.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: And reflection isn't self-indulgent, reflection keeps us clean, it keeps us clean of emotional entanglement, of old material coming to the surface.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so I guess the purpose in in saying this is not so much to say that I've got it right, because I'm not so sure about that.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: Don't tell anyone, but we therapists are fallible people as well, so let's just keep that quiet.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: The purpose is really about maintaining awareness.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it's because maintaining awareness in this way means that the way we communicate with others becomes informed by awareness, and we find then that our connections work better.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: With people who are close to me, what they think and what they feel and how they experience me matters a great deal.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because I want them to have an experience of me that works and which helps them to feel like they are considered and that they matter.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: It is very rare for me to conclude that someone doesn't matter to me.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes what people say doesn't really matter, hence the reference at the beginning of this podcast.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: It is very rare, it has happened, that I have reached a point where I have said that no one or that that someone no longer matters to me, and that is about necessary and complete disconnection.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: But the people who I'm connected to in whatever in whatever context do matter, and therefore I have a responsibility as best as I can manage it, to behave in ways that demonstrate that the person matters, that they are considered, that my behavior towards them takes them into account.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's not the same as taking responsibility for people, but it's about awareness.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: This is part of what we call mentalization, which is you can either Google or probably end up doing another series on.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: But it matters, it's what makes relationships work.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: And oddly enough, it's not so much about what is said, it's about what is done, what what what the person experiences.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, there are some people, no matter how able you are to operate in this way, for some people it won't work, and it won't work for all sorts of reasons.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: It probably don't have to do with you, but have to do with them and how they are put together and what's activated in them.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: But I think when it comes to this subject of awareness, what this is really about is self-awareness, and it's self-awareness for the benefit of self because when you abandon your self-awareness, you're likely to suffer because your awareness is about other and only other.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: It has to be about self as well, not selfish, it's called self-care.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes when I when I work with parents, and very often I will hear lovers when I'm working with them and trying to help them to understand what they're experiencing and help them to give voice to it.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: They might say things like, Yeah, but I'm not first on the list, my children are.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm here about them.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I say, and that's what puts you first in the list.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because without you being well and being heard and being relieved of some of the things you're carrying, without without that, then you take that into your parenting.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: And your children experience a parent who is preoccupied with things that they can't manage.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: So if we do that work here, your your children will have an experience of someone who has the freedom to be aware.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: So this awareness thing has a great deal of currency.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: But the patterns that we've been talking about, they don't begin in adulthood.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: They begin in families, in childhood, in adaptation, in survival.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: The empath adapted, the avoidant adapted.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: Both were trying to stay safe.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: Neither develops these strategies because they were weak.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: They developed them because they worked, at least for a while.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: But there comes a point where every survival strategy must answer a single question, does this still serve me?
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then is it now costing me more than it protects?
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: For the empath, the answer often comes when they realize that compassion has become self-abandonment.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: For the avoidant, the answer often comes only when they realize that self-protection has become isolation and quite often self-loathing.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where the growth begins.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: Not in blame or shame or punishment, but in awareness.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because awareness changes everything.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: You can't begin or what you can't see.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: But once you can see it, you can choose differently.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I come back to the difference between that was then, this is now.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: That is not the same as saying, well, that was then, that was a long time ago, forget about it.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's not important.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: Stop going on about it.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean that at all.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: It means, yes, you're right, you did have those experiences, and yes, they did shape your actions, your sense of yourself, your sense of how relationships work, how others might be used.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, that's what happened, but that's not the end of the story, because that realization can take you to the next step.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's again, we're back to recognition, reckoning, and recovery.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: Both of these people or these types have endured wounding of some kind, and both adapted and suffered.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: But both have the capacity to become something more than their wounds.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: The problem here though is that the empath doesn't wound others.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: They absolutely don't.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: And therefore, they wound themselves, that's that's definitely the case.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: The avoidant, on the other hand, does wound others, and the evidence for that is considerable, as they will know.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: And therefore, there is a kind of for the empath, there is an urgent need for review of self-care and self-protection, not by becoming cold.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: For the avoidant, the urgent need is that you've hurt people and probably hurt yourself, but your actions actually have significant consequences for others, and therefore, if you continue to live that way, by all means do.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: The outcome doesn't look good.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: And if you have children, what is it you're modeling to them?
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because what you will find is that they will have a repeated experience of mum or dad's relationships breaking, ending, people disappearing.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: What does that say?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: How do children make sense of that?
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Is the sense, oh well, another person treated mummy or daddy badly and had to be disappeared.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: There comes a point when they join the dots and they become confused.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: How do they internalize that?
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: What model of how to do relationships does it present, which they internalize?
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't have children, well, it's that important to pay attention, but I'm making the distinction because if you do have children, then you are modeling something.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: And they will internalize it and it will distress them.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: So before we finish, I want to leave you with one final thought.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: Some relationships are meant to last, and they're meant to last because the right things are in place.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: Some are meant to teach.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: And whilst it's painful to accept, some of the most important relationships we will ever experience fall into the second category.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: They arrive, they change us, they expose us, they reveal what needs healing, and then they leave.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Some because they failed, but some because the work was done.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: The empath learns self-respect.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: The avoidant may learn accountability, and both may walk away carrying lessons they might not have learned in any other way.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for joining me throughout this series.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: And whenever you find yourself in this story, whether you are the empath or the avoidant or somewhere in between, remember this your past may explain you, but it does not define you.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: Your wounds may shape you, but they don't own you.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: And your future doesn't have to look like your past.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for.