Latest / All Figured Out with Andrea Barr: Figuring Out Work, Life and Parenting / 135. The 1 dinner table mistake that makes picky eating worse — with Soleina Karamali

Transcript

135. The 1 dinner table mistake that makes picky eating worse — with Soleina Karamali · All Figured Out with Andrea Barr: Figuring Out Work, Life and Parenting

0:00
Welcome back to the All Figured Out Podcast.
0:02
My name is Andrea Barr. Thank you for joining me again
0:05
this week. This week I am joined by Selena
0:08
Karamali, who is a registered dietitian and she is the founder
0:12
of Every Eater. And I just loved this
0:17
conversation with Selena. She is so first of all, she's so
0:22
well spoken, but in a way that's not just like a registered
0:25
dietitian spewing stuff at you that you don't understand.
0:27
She's so grounded. She herself is a mother, and she
0:31
has been on the clinical side in hospitals, working with
0:35
children, working in the eating space.
0:37
And now she supports families in the challenges that we all face
0:41
with feeding children. And she covers all sorts of, you
0:45
know, spectrums in her practice of children with complex needs
0:49
to those of us who have children who just are picky.
0:52
And it's really hard to know and to navigate the mental stress of
0:56
feeding children even on a weekday.
0:58
And we cover all of that here. So I am so excited for you to
1:02
hear this. So I think it is so applicable
1:04
to all of us who are working parents and we're juggling a lot
1:07
and the last thing we want to do is have a power struggle at the
1:10
dinner table. So we talk about the table, we
1:12
talk about tips and tricks for how to just make it feel a bit
1:15
easier. And I hope you enjoy.
1:22
This is all figured out. I'm Andrea Barr.
1:25
I'm a career coach for parents, a mom of two, and I absolutely
1:28
believe that you can continue to grow personally and
1:31
professionally while protecting family time.
1:36
We're about to figure out this work, life and parenting stuff
1:39
out together. Selena Karmali, thank you so
1:50
much for coming on the All Figured Out podcast.
1:52
Yeah, thanks for having me. So good to have you here.
1:55
I am so excited to dive into all things eating, not eating as
2:02
parents, although I love that. I love that notion.
2:05
It's almost lunchtime when getting a little bit hungry
2:06
here, but eating and feeding children, feeding a family and
2:11
specifically when we were doing our intro call, just you have
2:16
such a beautiful take on the table, the family table.
2:19
So I'm so excited to get into that as well.
2:21
I have to ask you, you worked in pediatric in the pediatric world
2:24
at feeding children in the hospital.
2:27
Now you did that before having kids.
2:29
Tell me how strange was it to work in Pediatrics before having
2:34
kids and then reflect back on that experience after having.
2:37
Kids, good question. So yeah, I feel like I knew a
2:44
lot of like knowledge when it comes to feeding.
2:47
Like I know how the mouth works when it comes to feeding and
2:50
like obviously the nutrition that you need at certain life
2:52
stages. And we did a lot of tube
2:54
feeding, meaning kids that were tube fed, we would kind of
2:57
support them with getting back to oral eating.
2:59
And so I knew all the technical stuff, but I think when I
3:03
reflect back, my recommendations probably weren't always super
3:06
apparent friendly. Like, especially when I think
3:08
about like, me encouraging a family to let their kid get
3:11
messy and just kind of thinking it's like, no big deal.
3:14
And then also being like, zoom forward to my own kids
3:17
postpartum. I'm like, I don't want my baby
3:19
to get this messy. Like I am exhausted.
3:22
I have not slept. We're dealing with a whole bunch
3:24
of other things going on at, you know, six months old with a
3:27
baby. And so I think it's a little bit
3:29
funny to like, yeah, look back and realize that they definitely
3:33
should have been a little bit more gracious in terms of, like,
3:36
my recommendations and maybe give them some like, a little
3:39
bit of information that's a bit more practical.
3:40
Like, what does that look like in terms of mess at that age?
3:44
And like, how can you actually, like, still achieve that same
3:46
goal without every single meal being like, a complete disaster
3:50
in terms of a mess, Right. So yeah, it's definitely very
3:53
interesting to look back. And I think that I always say,
3:56
like, my kids, my two kids are like my greatest teachers when
3:59
it comes to feeding. And I really wish I had that
4:02
perspective like back then. While the parents were still
4:04
like just knowing you a little bit now, those parents were so
4:08
lucky to have you. You're so knowledgeable, kind
4:10
like you have a wonderful demeanor, disposition, bedside
4:13
manner. I'm sure.
4:14
I don't think that's the word you use, but you know, I mean,
4:18
so they were great. But I always loved that question
4:20
because it's still funny. Even those of us who've been in
4:22
corporate, you know, like we I've had that conversation so
4:25
many times on the podcast around the people who used to sit next
4:27
to who are parents, who'd be quote, UN quote, sneaking out
4:29
early from work and how ungracious we all were towards
4:34
those parents. Totally.
4:35
And you become a parent and you're like, oh, I'm like just
4:38
putting my foot in, like you put in my mouth.
4:40
Yeah. You know, just look reflecting
4:42
back on those experiences. 100%. Yeah, yeah.
4:45
And it's just, yeah, they're kids, man.
4:46
They do teach us a lot. So I would love to hear your
4:50
story. And just going from it's such an
4:53
interesting theme that we've had on this podcast of people who
4:56
have been such experts in their field become parents, then
5:00
applying their expertise to their own children and then
5:03
seeing where that takes them, their journey.
5:05
So tell me, tell me, what was your, you know, your pregnancy
5:08
experience having small children?
5:10
Walk me through what all that looked like as someone who is an
5:13
expert in children. Yeah, yeah.
5:16
We're supposed to be. Something I was going to say,
5:18
it's supposed to be so I got pregnant in 2020 and 2020.
5:23
So it was like kind of during COVID, like have a COVID baby.
5:27
And so working in the hospital during that time was really
5:29
interesting because on the one hand, you know, you're kind of
5:33
like worried because you're pregnant and you're like, should
5:34
I be around to like COVID in a hospital setting?
5:38
But at the same time, I think I'm a very social person.
5:40
So I actually really appreciated being able to see people like in
5:43
person all the time. So I think that experience is
5:47
really interesting. Um, in terms of like, I think my
5:51
journey to getting to being a dietitian, I always knew I
5:55
wanted to work in healthcare. Like I, I knew it from like such
5:58
a young age. I used to watch ER, it sounds so
6:01
cheesy. I used to watch ER.
6:03
It's like, I'm going to be no, a while.
6:05
And I just knew I wanted to like help people and I felt like that
6:09
would be like the most gratifying job.
6:10
I'm sure there was like some parental pressure of like get a
6:12
stable job. And I think like culturally,
6:16
like a doctor is a very stable profession, right?
6:19
Doctor or lawyer type thing. And so, and you want to work in
6:22
healthcare, but I have this really strong passion for food
6:25
and eating. Like, I love to eat.
6:27
My mom loves to cook. And so it was around her cooking
6:30
a lot. And she also like owned a Cafe.
6:32
So I would like work in the Cafe.
6:34
And so there was this huge drive of like, how do I kind of marry
6:37
these two things? And I don't think a lot of
6:39
people know what, like dietitians are.
6:41
Like, back when I graduated, I had no idea that there was
6:44
anybody in the hospital outside of like, nurses and doctors type
6:47
of thing, right? But then as I went through
6:50
schooling, I realized that there was this profession as a
6:52
dietician, and that was like it. Like I said, I realized that I
6:55
was like, this is what I'm doing.
6:56
I'm going to work towards this. I also knew I wanted to
7:01
potentially work with children. And then I did my internship at
7:04
Children's Hospital and was like, Yep, that is exactly what
7:07
I want to do. I want to be a pediatric
7:08
dietician. We were talking a little bit
7:10
before about like adults. And I do love working with
7:12
adults, but there's so much baggage that comes with working
7:15
with adults in terms of their own feeding relationship.
7:17
And I really wanted to almost like foster what that
7:20
relationship could look like from the beginning.
7:23
And that's kind of where kids come in.
7:25
Like you are kind of that person that can actually shape how a
7:27
parent views feeding for their child right from the beginning
7:31
and hopefully instill that so that they grow up having like a
7:34
healthy relationship with food. Interesting.
7:38
Yeah. How much do you would you say
7:39
that even in the clinical setting or even now?
7:42
How much would you say if it is having to re pattern or help
7:47
parents unlearn their own shit? A lot like feeding your child
7:51
really opens your eyes to your own feeding journey and how you
7:54
view food, all your own eating habits.
7:57
Like I think some families feel so much pressure, for example,
8:00
to provide so much variety. And then when we look at their
8:03
diet and what they cook, they actually tend to cook kind of
8:06
the same things, which is totally fine.
8:08
Like there's nothing wrong with that, but I think that we put so
8:10
much pressure on ourselves to feed our kids differently.
8:13
And it doesn't always have to be like, like a completely
8:16
different experience. It's more about like the way
8:18
that you treat food and the way you talk about food and kind of
8:20
the relationship you're trying to build with food as opposed to
8:23
like the actual food that you're giving.
8:24
Yes. And so it's funny because I feel
8:26
like as a dietitian, I would, I feel, I felt like I would always
8:29
kind of focus on like, what exact foods should we like be
8:32
offering? But it sounds a little bit
8:34
corny, but I typically don't really care to be honest, what
8:36
you're offering in general. Like most families are actually
8:39
doing it, right? It's more about like how you're
8:42
offering it and how you're talking about it and how you're
8:45
going about kind of resenting it and then like supporting your
8:48
kids to kind of come to those foods.
8:50
OK, that is so interesting. Yeah.
8:52
OK, I got you off track, but it's OK.
8:54
You go back to work as a dietician.
8:57
So you have your first child, actually.
8:59
What was that feeding experience?
9:00
Like, yeah, I was really excited to feed my first child.
9:03
Like, I was like, I got this. Like I do this all the time.
9:05
You're like one month in, yeah. Yeah, like starting balloons
9:08
ready. I'm like, I have my perfect
9:09
spoon, my perfect cup kind of thing.
9:11
Um, yeah. And it was, it was a really
9:13
interesting experience because I was like, I know exactly like I
9:16
mentioned, like technically what to do, but then actually
9:19
applying it to a child that's your own especially can be a
9:22
little bit nerve wracking, right?
9:24
You're like, are they actually doing it right?
9:26
Like are they supposed to do it? And I think being postpartum as
9:28
well, you're kind of like second guessing yourself a little bit.
9:30
You're not really at full capacity at that point, or at
9:33
least I wasn't. And so I felt like that was a
9:36
really exciting experience, but it also was like a pretty big
9:38
learning curve in terms of, OK, this actually is quite messy.
9:42
The volume of intake is actually quite low.
9:45
He's not loving everything I'm giving him.
9:47
And I put a lot of effort into, like, making this homemade
9:50
applesauce kind of thing. And he's, like, throwing it on
9:52
the ground. So it's very humbling feeding
9:54
your own kids comparatively to, I think, how I thought it would
9:58
look like. Totally, Yeah.
10:00
That makes a lot of sense. Yeah.
10:01
And my son, I would say, is a very cautious eater.
10:05
My older son's very cautious. So that was also interesting too
10:08
because I felt like as a dietitian, like feeding
10:11
therapist, like I know exactly what to do, but it's really, um,
10:16
a really good lesson to kind of learn that like picky eating or
10:20
like whatever, like particular eating, selective eating,
10:22
whatever you want to call it isn't any cause of the parent.
10:25
Like it's not the parents fault that that happened typically.
10:28
It's typically like a personality trait of your child.
10:30
Because I have two kids now and one of them is very like
10:34
adventurous and is curious about foods.
10:36
And yes, he's like a little bit particular, but for his own
10:39
reasons as a toddler. And then my older son is still
10:41
very cautious and they're have this like they're the same.
10:45
I'm the same parent for both of them and we did very similar
10:48
things but I think it's just like their personality is
10:51
showing U and feeding in different ways.
10:53
Yes, tell me about the I was going to say tell me about the
10:56
tongue. What a weird what a weird
10:59
question. Tell me about taste buds,
11:02
because I just have this feeling and maybe you know, you're like
11:05
hearsay, like you inside or in bio or Kent.
11:09
What I don't know. You hear these like little bits
11:10
of information you forget, like what is actually truthful.
11:12
But I feel like there is something about their palettes
11:15
are so on fire because they're so young.
11:18
Like they have there's no sense of dullness.
11:20
Is any of that true? Like do do they experience food
11:23
and taste in such a big way that like if we were to taste food
11:27
the way that they taste it, it sometimes it actually is like
11:29
the broccoli is highly offensive.
11:31
Yeah, yeah, definitely. So actually, when babies are
11:34
starting solids, their taste buds are a bit duller, so
11:37
they're more like willing to try kind of like, you know, the
11:40
sardines that you throw at them or like the olives or whatever
11:43
you kind of give them. They're kind of game for it.
11:45
They also don't come with like any preconceived notion of like
11:47
what this food is. They're less like sensory aware.
11:50
So like, the feeling of food in their mouth feels a little bit
11:52
like more muted as well. Like they're not overly like
11:55
sensitive to like the stringiness of something like
11:57
broccoli. And then when they enter
11:59
toddlerhood, their taste buds actually do kind of become a bit
12:02
more sensitive. And so they're able to pick up
12:04
on more bitter tastes. And vegetables tend to be
12:07
bitter. And so that tends to be a
12:09
reason, one of the reasons why kids tend to refuse vegetables.
12:12
But then as well, like toddlers are going through so many pieces
12:15
of development. Like they're going through this
12:17
whole independence shift, like who am I and how do I have
12:21
control over like my own body? They're going through this huge
12:25
like phase of like something called neophobia, which is like
12:27
the sphere of new. So just kind of being more
12:29
cautious, which is actually like biologically great because you
12:32
don't want your, you know, 3 year old constantly putting
12:34
things in their mouth that they shouldn't be as they did when
12:36
they were a baby. But that also translates to the
12:39
table as well, where like they're seeing things that they
12:41
perceive as new and they're no longer willing to put it in
12:44
their mouth. So there's like a whole bunch of
12:46
shifts that happen in toddlerhood that kind of cause
12:49
picky eating, but it's the picky eating is a symptom of like
12:51
what's going on for them as opposed to like the diagnosis,
12:54
if that makes sense. OK.
12:56
And then and also you're saying that like you were saying
13:00
previously, like we all are very quick to blame ourselves.
13:03
Is this a millennial parenting thing?
13:04
I think. So like we're just like anything
13:07
that's going wrong, yeah, quote UN quote wrong.
13:09
Anything that feels like it's not perfect, we're like
13:13
something I did. It's clearly like this book I
13:16
didn't read or it's this, this I didn't do baby good, meaning I
13:19
didn't do purees or I didn't do this.
13:21
I did Milk is still going on. Like we just, Oh my gosh, we
13:24
blame ourselves so much. But you're saying that sometimes
13:27
it's just like it just is? Yeah, it just is.
13:29
Yeah. It just is.
13:29
Your child could be picky and you could do like everything,
13:32
quote UN quote, like right by the book or whatever.
13:34
And your child could still then like be super sensitive to
13:37
textures and that causes that picky eating or be like a really
13:40
like stubborn, more like assertive child.
13:43
And they might want more control over their food, which then
13:46
causes the picky eating peas. Yeah.
13:48
I feel like as a millennial there, there's like so much more
13:51
information available, which is like can be a really nice thing,
13:54
but also it can be really hard to navigate because we have so
13:57
much pressure on ourselves to like do it right.
13:59
Yes, like and it really like. There is no right way.
14:03
OK, Speaking of Right way wrong way, The Canadian Food Guide.
14:07
Yeah, or insert your Country's food.
14:09
Guide. Yeah.
14:10
We have Finland listening. I don't know their food too
14:15
well. But I feel like Finland's got
14:17
things going. Right now, I feel like to be
14:19
looking towards that. Yeah, Yeah.
14:20
OK. So Finland countries are, yeah.
14:22
You seem to be just killing it. OK, The Canadian Food Guide,
14:26
insert country Food Guide, talk about pressure.
14:30
That's probably one of the first pieces of information,
14:32
information that parents had really readily accessible to
14:36
them around feeding, feeding children, feeding families,
14:39
feeding adults. And I think so many of us are.
14:42
So I'll speak from, you know, my own experience of like the
14:44
beginning, you know, the first child where you're so worried
14:48
about everything. I was like, OK, so I have to
14:50
have all the food groups in every snack, every meal.
14:56
Can you help us understand, like, what is the purpose of the
14:59
Food Guide? How is it meant to be used?
15:02
And is it an adult tool, a childhood?
15:05
Like how does it work? How is it supposed to work?
15:07
As a registered dietitian? You said people just think that
15:10
you are like you're just Hawking the Canada Food Guide and.
15:13
Handing them out to everybody like take this and follow it now
15:15
like. I like Jehovah's Witness.
15:17
Yeah, I, I rarely use the Food Guide, to be honest.
15:20
Like, I think it's a lovely like diagram in terms of this is kind
15:24
of what we're aiming for. The emphasis there.
15:26
I think when we look at that plate and there's like all those
15:29
vegetables and fruits and all that colour and like all those
15:32
sources of like protein and carbohydrates is like
15:34
essentially this emphasis on variety, which isn't like a new
15:37
concept, but it's also hard sometimes to kind of tell people
15:40
to just eat a variety of foods without actually showing them
15:42
what that cut look like. And so I think that's like one
15:45
of the emphasis, emphasis on the Food Guide is just like variety.
15:50
I do find the Food Guide definitely to be more of like an
15:53
adult tool because if we look at that plate, half of it is
15:56
vegetables and roots and realistically that is too much
16:00
vegetables and fruits for a child like that would actually
16:02
displace their nutrients from carbohydrates which should be
16:05
the main source of their diet. Whoa, say that again.
16:08
Carbohydrate should be the main source of their diet.
16:11
So when they're all of them are just wanting white plain.
16:15
Food, it's like biologically like that's what they actually
16:18
need. Like their brain runs on
16:20
glucose. They are so active they need
16:22
carbohydrates in their diet and. The largest proportion of their
16:26
diet. That's insane.
16:28
Yeah. How did?
16:29
How did I not know that? Well, it's interesting because I
16:32
think we know nutrition for ourselves, and I also think that
16:35
we probably grew up in diet culture, right?
16:38
Or carbohydrates. Low carb shit, yeah, Atkins low
16:43
carb is better. Keto, there's always been like
16:46
some sort of macronutrient on fire, and usually it's
16:49
carbohydrates. Right there was the fat phase.
16:52
There were. There was.
16:55
And then we swung towards keto and we're like fats, great habit
16:57
and have bacon oil on everything kind of thing.
17:00
And now we're in this big protein craze, right?
17:02
Like everything is high protein, like the amount of pressure that
17:05
we put on our, ourselves to have protein as crazy, right?
17:09
And so obviously, if we're having that large amount of 1
17:12
macronutrient, the other macro nutrients are suffering, right?
17:14
It's never going to be in balance.
17:16
And so when we start to try to place that nutrition information
17:21
that we know for adults onto kids, oftentimes we actually put
17:24
more pressure on kids eating and start to steer them away from
17:28
like biologically what they actually require, which is
17:30
carbohydrates. Like the amount of times that
17:32
parents have come up to me and I have 0 like judgment because I
17:36
get where it comes from, but like they're like, I'm worried
17:38
about my kids protein. And I'm like, that is a last
17:41
macronutrient I need to be worried about because you're
17:43
protein, your kids protein requirements is like as a
17:46
toddler, like 12g per day and a cup of milk has 8 grams of
17:50
protein. So like they're doing fine in
17:52
the protein department. It's usually more like the fiber
17:55
that I'm worried about and maybe the iron that I'm worried about,
17:58
but I'm very rarely worried about protein.
17:59
And so that's just kind of so funny because I think for adults
18:02
were like trying to aim for someone like 4050 grams of
18:05
protein per meal. Yes, right.
18:07
Everything's like protein infused now that it can be
18:10
really detrimental actually to try to get our kids to eat in
18:13
that same pattern. Oh my gosh Selena, my like brain
18:18
is exploding right now. Glad I'm throwing all the
18:21
questions out the window. Is it like alleviating that
18:23
pressure of like getting your kids teeth the chicken?
18:26
Yes. Yeah, I hated chicken growing up
18:28
Taro. I hated chicken.
18:30
I wanted I wanted the Wonder Bread.
18:34
No, I wanted like the English muffin.
18:36
I wanted the bagel. Yeah.
18:37
And I remember my girlfriend, Becca Harris, she's been on the
18:40
podcast. She's a registered dietitian.
18:42
She I don't know, I feel like I have she was not a dietitian
18:46
yet, but I remember her and I talking about like our love for
18:48
bagels, like in university when we were studying like big exam
18:53
period. I still don't really, maybe you
18:54
can explain this, but I remember being like, why am I like I'm
18:58
not even moving. I'm hardly working out, I'll
18:59
just going to the library. I'm just studying for exams but
19:02
I remember my brain literally crying out to me saying feed me
19:07
bagels. Yeah, feed me bags.
19:08
So funny. Is there something about like
19:10
the main brain the brain needs? The glucose.
19:13
Glucose is your brains main fuel source, so it's not using like
19:18
protein or fats or whatever unless you're in ketosis, which
19:21
I don't often recommend unless you're medically it's medically
19:25
necessary or whatever. But yeah, carbohydrates are the
19:28
easiest source of glucose, and your brain uses glucose.
19:31
So it's interesting that you kind of felt that because, yeah,
19:33
and it sounds like you're really in tune with your body, too.
19:36
I have maybe for better, for worse, like high interoception.
19:39
I believe the word is where I can like really sense a lot, but
19:42
that's like sometimes it's like a bit much.
19:44
I'm like, shush, let me have the the Margarita.
19:47
Right. Yeah, totally.
19:48
OK, so let me just circle back to this.
19:50
So all these fads that are coming and going, it's like, you
19:54
know, protein is really big right now.
19:55
Fiber tried to have a moment. Yeah, it's trying to have a
19:58
moment and and that's for better.
20:00
What you're saying is it's like, that's fine, well and good.
20:03
Like it's good for us to like have, you know, have more
20:06
protein maybe or whatever. But what we should be doing is
20:08
not bringing our kids necessarily in and putting that
20:12
pressure on them as. Well, yeah, exactly.
20:14
Interesting. Like I do think that like, fiber
20:16
is important for kids. I don't know necessarily if any,
20:20
like if you ever wanted your child to eat anything, I don't
20:23
know if the best way to do that is by putting pressure on them
20:25
to eat it. Like, initially it may work
20:27
because maybe they're like, you know, feeling guilty or doing it
20:31
because they want to please you. But then I think about that
20:34
relationship with food long term, and I'm like, what are we
20:36
teaching our children? Yeah.
20:38
Or essentially teaching them that you should eat this certain
20:40
food to please me. And so now I'm no longer letting
20:44
my child listen to their body, which is something they're born
20:46
with. They're born with his innate
20:48
ability to queue when they're hungry and then tell you when
20:51
they're full, which I find as parents, we often listen to when
20:55
they're breast or bottle fed. You know, like they're queuing,
20:58
you breastfeed them or bottle feed them, they turn away or
21:02
like want to push off and then you're like, OK, you're done
21:03
kind of thing. And we're fine with listening to
21:06
that to them during that stage. But then as soon as food comes
21:10
in, we're like, no, you don't. You don't know how much you need
21:12
to kind of thing. And I see that all the time with
21:14
solids when I'm starting solids with families where if they
21:17
didn't eat a certain amount or if they just played with the
21:20
food that day, it's like a loss, like they didn't do a good
21:23
enough job as parents. But really, what we're trying to
21:27
do, what I'm trying to do, I support families with preserving
21:30
that innate ability to listen to your body, like regulate your
21:34
hunger and fullness. Continue to listen to that time
21:36
and time again because you're born with it.
21:38
And evidence shows that kids will grow predictably if they
21:42
listen to that cue. Wow, that's a mic drop moment
21:46
right there. Yeah.
21:48
Because what we're saying is like if we really think about,
21:50
it's like how longevity is such a buzzy thing right now.
21:53
Yeah, but we're finally doing is we're finally, from a longevity
21:56
perspective, we're finally saying, OK, what if I look at 90
21:59
year old Andrea? Yeah, what does she want me to
22:01
be doing today? And what I'm hearing what you're
22:03
saying is it's like, OK, what do we want our 30 year old
22:06
children? What habits do we want them to
22:09
have then? And what does that mean we need
22:10
to be doing now? Not a lot actually, just letting
22:13
them do their thing actually. Nothing like like the biggest,
22:16
my biggest recommendation that I give families is to remain
22:19
unbothered at the table. And it's like a skill to, like,
22:23
not be, you know, triggered by the fact that your child has
22:26
thrown something or escalate because they refuse to eat
22:29
dinner. Like your superpower as a parent
22:32
is to remain unbothered. Obviously, that doesn't mean,
22:34
like, dismissive or like invalidating.
22:36
Yes. But it just means that you're
22:37
not reactive to what they do at the table because there's
22:41
different phases and feedings and feeding that happens.
22:44
And the whole goal is for you to, like, ride those phases but
22:48
still maintain the structure that you have and not kind of
22:50
adapt to try to get your kids to eat or because you're, like,
22:53
feeling anxious that they haven't eaten or whatever.
22:55
Yeah. So, yeah, I feel like that's
22:58
the, like, when we think about longevity, like we know adults
23:01
who are still trying to like, figure out how to listen to
23:04
their bodies, right? Who are trying to eat
23:05
intuitively and like are trying to be OK with eating, you know,
23:09
a cookie and not feel that guilt that they were probably growing
23:12
up with are told that they should feel guilty about from
23:15
like diet culture, right? So that's kind of where I try to
23:19
instill that and also think like, yeah, long term, like,
23:22
where do you want your kids to be?
23:23
And what kind of relationship do you want them to have with food,
23:26
which is their longest standing relationship besides their
23:28
parents, right? What their body, that their
23:32
body, your body is like all you got?
23:34
And they're, and like the relationship that they have,
23:35
like with food, like they have to eat right, forever, right,
23:39
right, right. So they're always going to be
23:41
faced with food. And so how do we want to shape
23:43
that? Oh my gosh, I've got goosebumps.
23:47
Selena, you're good. OK, but we have to.
23:50
So I'm going to now. I'm going to challenge you.
23:54
They always want snacks. It's a lot.
23:59
It's a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot. So I've got one who is really
24:03
good at meal time. If you get and she might ask for
24:06
a snack, but she's like, she's like a, a, a meal eater.
24:09
That's my husband and that's also my daughter.
24:12
And then we've got me. And if I really look back, my
24:16
mom always said I was grazer, right?
24:18
I'm a little bird. I can like eat more meals now my
24:21
son is the same way and it's like constant snacking.
24:24
So is that, I don't know, like, do we have to just work with
24:28
that or how do we put parameters around?
24:30
Like, I can't be feeding you every hour.
24:32
Hmm. OK.
24:33
You know, yeah, asking for a friend.
24:35
Asking for a friend. Yeah.
24:36
Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
24:38
So when I hear that, sometimes I wonder about what those snacks
24:42
look like. So maybe I'll ask you that
24:43
question. If we're doing this little back
24:45
and forth counseling, what are some of your son's favorite
24:48
snacks? He does love a pepperoni stick.
24:50
OK, he loves pepperoni stick. He'd love to have something
24:56
maybe sweet, like the pouches. He loves milk.
25:01
Like this three-year old dude is still on a bottle.
25:04
OK, Like on a bottle. He loves, loves a bottle.
25:07
Yeah, when he wakes up before his nap.
25:09
Yeah. Maybe when he wakes up before
25:11
bed. Like it's a lot of milk.
25:12
Kid loves milk. Yeah, maybe some cheese, but
25:16
he's a picky guy. Yeah.
25:18
And it sounds like he's kind of like nibbling like here and
25:21
there. Yes.
25:22
And so if I think about like what how I treat snacks, that's
25:25
a great question. I think we think snacks is like
25:27
something small, right? Because we've been told a snack
25:30
is like a little bite kind of thing.
25:32
A little a little appetizer, the snack.
25:34
Size exact McDonald's snack Size Mcflurry.
25:38
Exactly. But when I support families, I
25:41
really encourage them to think of snacks as mini meals.
25:44
So snacks are it's an opportunity for your child to
25:47
eat. Your child needs lots of
25:49
opportunities to eat. Like every two to three hours
25:51
we're supposed to be feeding them something.
25:54
Which is a lot of work. Yeah, for you, it sounds like
25:56
it's eight times a day kind of thing, so it's even more work.
25:59
But then I want to look at that snack and be like, are we
26:02
actually nourishing them or are they kind of taking the edge off
26:04
of their hunger? Like are they entering the next
26:06
meal hungry, ready for food that you give them?
26:10
Or do they just have a pouch an hour ago so now they're able to
26:12
be a bit more particular and selective of like what you've
26:15
given them? Cause if I wasn't super hungry
26:17
and I entered a meal and there was something that was like not
26:20
really my favorite there, I probably wouldn't eat that and
26:23
would probably stick to my favorite food because I'm not
26:26
super hungry for it. But if I gave the pepperoni
26:28
stick an hour before dinner, it's even worse.
26:31
Yeah, yeah. So I would maybe either allow
26:35
for some space between snacks. So bulk up the snack, treat it
26:37
like a mini meal, pepperoni stick, cheese pouch, pair the
26:40
three things together. Yeah, right.
26:42
And make them like or not make them, but like allow him to have
26:45
like a little bit more at that time.
26:47
And then see if that allows them to kind of go into the next or
26:50
delay this next snack request. See if he comes in to dinner,
26:54
like especially if you gave it 2 hours before, yes.
26:56
See if he comes to dinner a little bit more hungry, a little
26:59
bit more willing to sit, a little bit more interested in
27:01
foods. Why does this seem so obvious?
27:04
But then my mind is actually blown like you're saying it.
27:06
I'm like this just obviously, but I didn't think about it that
27:09
way. I really did think about it as
27:11
like 1 rice cracker here, one pouch here, one cheese stick.
27:15
Of course he's eating. Every hour, Yeah, Yeah,
27:17
absolutely. But I also think that it's like
27:19
a lot of marketing, like there's a lot of external influence on
27:21
our food system as well. Like when we go to the snack
27:24
aisle, the serving size for the snacks that we're buying are
27:28
literally that like one pouch kind of thing.
27:30
But then if I think about like, again, the nutrition for a
27:32
child, one pouch would be enough at a snack time to satiate them.
27:37
Yeah. And it's mostly like, you know,
27:38
kind of simple carbohydrates in a way.
27:40
So they're probably going to digest that really quickly.
27:42
So with every snack and meal, I aim to include something that's
27:46
high iron, so like an iron rich source and a high calorie food.
27:50
And so that's something that can allow, again from a
27:53
micronutrient perspective typically worried about iron for
27:55
toddlers because it's really hard to meet an iron or toddlers
27:58
iron requirement. And then the high fat part is
28:00
going to be the satiation. So they're going to actually be
28:03
able to delay until that next meal.
28:05
That you show me your favorite high iron foods for toddlers.
28:08
Hemp seeds is a really big one only because like they're so
28:12
easy to add into everything. Like you can blend them in
28:14
smoothies, you can add them to yogurt, you can add them to
28:17
oatmeal, sprinkle on toast. Sometimes I'll even put them in
28:20
like a little shaker with like chia seeds, maybe some flax
28:23
seeds, and then like actual sprinkles, like the rainbow
28:26
sprinkles. And they can, like, shake them
28:28
onto their own food and it's still fun because, like, there's
28:31
colour in there, but they're still getting some like, hemp
28:33
seeds and like, chia seeds. As well fun is that.
28:35
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, honestly, like at
28:38
this age like 3, your kids are three and five, right?
28:40
Yeah, similar to mine. Anything that you can allow them
28:42
to do themselves, any kind of like mod you can let them do,
28:45
they're like, so into, right, Because you're giving them that
28:48
piece of control. So if you're like, yeah, you can
28:50
like shake how much, how many sprinkles you want on your
28:52
oatmeal, They're like going to town.
28:54
And I'm like, that's like a teaspoon of hemp seeds, other
28:56
kind of thing, right? So.
28:57
Just make sure like I'm laughing because I'm picturing the
28:59
friggin soy sauce at the restaurant.
29:01
Oh yeah. That's right, You're like.
29:04
OK, we got 11. Yeah, yeah, it comes out so
29:07
fast. It does.
29:07
It does. Just like pores, It's true.
29:09
Yeah, gosh, what a hot tip. Yeah, I'm gonna do this.
29:14
Great. I'm so.
29:15
Glad have fun is. That yeah, it's like, it's
29:17
really, it's like not super hard to do these types of things.
29:22
I think sometimes though, again, the external pressure of like
29:24
iron comes from meat. My kid doesn't eat meat.
29:26
So like, we're we're screwed kind of thing.
29:28
But meat is not the main sort. Like, of course it's an easy
29:31
source of iron, but also a lot of kids just don't love the
29:34
texture of meat. Yeah, right.
29:36
They don't just, it's kind of a really common refusal item.
29:39
So if you can get creative and think about other ways, like the
29:42
other one is, um, like lentils, you can kind of blend that into
29:45
pasta sauce really easily. Those types of things can be
29:48
really helpful and it doesn't mean that you have to change
29:52
what your child's eating. You're just kind of like
29:53
boosting it, yes. Yeah, Oh, come on, I'm going to
29:57
listen to this again. I sometimes I will listen this
30:01
listen to my my own episodes again when I need them and my
30:04
husband and I will sit down and listen to this one again because
30:06
already I'm like blown away. I want to pivot to the table,
30:10
quote UN quote, the table. I think this is such a
30:12
beautiful, I'm so excited to have what I hope will be a
30:17
beautiful discussion on the pressures and how we can combat
30:22
those pressures with sitting down and having these like
30:26
really robust long discussions with our children.
30:30
And like everyone's eating, no one's throwing food, no ones
30:34
crying. It's it's, we see it in movies,
30:37
we see it in TV shows. And the reality is most of us
30:41
are double working household with parents who are busy and
30:46
kids. There might be an after school
30:47
programs and that's a whole other conversation, you know,
30:51
about just like what the impact of the pressures of work are
30:55
right now on families. But talk to me about what you
30:59
think the role of like the dinner table is at a family and
31:02
like what are some of the myths we can debunk around what this
31:05
perfect table looks like? Yeah, absolutely.
31:08
I mean, the table I kind of use as like a symbol, as like a
31:11
place for gathering. So obviously if you don't have a
31:13
table, you're not like you're still able to kind of like do
31:16
this. You just, it's more just like
31:17
the symbol of like where we can kind of connect with each other.
31:21
And so when I work with families, a lot of times like
31:23
the goal is I really want my kid to eat meat, for example, or I
31:27
really want them to eat vegetables or I want them to
31:28
just eat dinner type of thing. And yes, that can be like one of
31:32
our goals that we work towards. But sometimes they ask like
31:36
families like at what cost, right?
31:38
Like the table is a place where potentially when your kids get
31:41
older is going to be the only time that they actually sit down
31:44
and you're kind of all together, right?
31:46
Like we know that when our kids get older, they're going to be
31:48
in after school activities, are going to have their friends,
31:50
they're going to want to do things by themselves.
31:53
But if the table is a place that they actually want to return to
31:56
because there was no pressure on them to eat a certain food, no
32:00
talk about like how much they ate or did they eat enough and
32:03
was actually a place where they enjoyed being because they got
32:06
to chat with their chat with their families, They got to
32:08
connect about their day, then they're more likely to come back
32:12
time and time again. And you're more likely to have
32:14
that connection point as kids get older.
32:16
And so for me, the table, yes, it's a place to eat, but it's
32:20
never about like intake. It's always about connection.
32:23
And how can you connect with your kids at the table?
32:26
What are your top tips for making it enjoyable?
32:29
Yeah. So I kind of mentioned before,
32:32
like remaining unbothered is a really good one because if
32:35
you're focused on your meal and you're unbothered by what your
32:37
kids are doing and if you're like truly enjoying your meal,
32:40
your kids will notice that, right?
32:42
It's just that modeling that kind of goes on when you're
32:44
actually eating and like enjoying the food that you
32:47
prepared. I always ask parents and like,
32:49
there must have been a, there must have been a time before
32:52
kids where you actually enjoyed eating the food that you made,
32:56
right? And a lot of families will say,
32:58
yes, like I love cooking kind of thing.
33:00
And now I dread meal times. And I'm like, you need to go
33:02
back to that. You need to go back to enjoying
33:05
the food that you make and is focusing on yourself and your
33:07
own meal. So that's kind of my main tip it
33:10
just to kind of model and enjoy your foods.
33:13
The other piece is just to kind of avoid any commentary on how
33:17
much your child is eating or if they should be eating certain
33:20
things. Like a lot of times we might get
33:23
into that pattern of like, oh, don't eat your pasta first.
33:25
Eat your chicken first kind of thing, or like have your veggies
33:27
try it, try it by like here it is kind of thing.
33:30
Um, do you want to like lick it kind of thing and kind of
33:33
offering those suggestions. But I think we, and I know where
33:37
that comes from. Like we mean, well, we want our
33:39
kids to thrive and to have all the micronutrients that they
33:42
require. But when you zoom out, is
33:44
getting your child to lick or have that broccoli through
33:48
pressure really going to make a difference in terms of their
33:50
health? Like, I guarantee they're
33:52
probably not going to love it if they do it because they're being
33:54
forced to do it, especially at the top of their phase because,
33:57
um, toddlers are so sensitive to pressure.
34:00
And really what you've done is just kind of like allow them or
34:03
told them that, hey, I don't trust in terms of what you're
34:06
doing at the table. So I need to be there policing
34:08
what's going on, right? And I don't want to like shame
34:12
anybody if you're doing this by any means, because like
34:14
sometimes I fall victim to this as well.
34:16
Like, I just get into this worry cycle of like, I want my kids to
34:18
eat, they're not eating enough kind of thing.
34:20
And then you almost have to like, zoom out and be like, this
34:22
is not about intake. Like, I want them to be here
34:24
long term. Like, I want them to come back
34:26
to this table. And if you start to pressure,
34:28
they're not going to want to come back.
34:29
Yeah, right. Yeah, so we can.
34:32
So the idea is like, I guess make it an enjoyable place to
34:37
be. Yeah, like, make it enjoyable.
34:39
And if they eat, if they don't eat, I think that maybe some of
34:44
the fears around this are like, if they don't eat, are they
34:46
going to be asking me for a snack in an hour?
34:47
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And that's when we just have to
34:50
kind of resign to that might be the case.
34:52
Yeah. So there are some like
34:53
strategies around that. So like, for example, for a
34:56
toddler, because I typically focus in this age group, I
35:00
wouldn't ever just put it down like a casserole that they've
35:03
never seen before and be like, here's your food, eat it.
35:05
I'm enjoying it. Over here type of thing, right?
35:07
Like there are certain nuances because we know that as
35:09
toddlers, they tend to be a bit more, like I mentioned, like
35:12
neophobic to new foods. A casserole is very mixed and
35:15
using it as an example, because it's a very mixed food, like
35:18
it's hard to tell what the components are.
35:20
And if your child's not used to having that, that would be
35:22
considered a new food for them. So we always want to include
35:25
something that is preferred on the table, something that's safe
35:28
because that's going to ease their nervous system, that's
35:31
going to allow them to enter that table to a place of safety
35:33
because there's something that they recognize on the plate.
35:36
So whether that be like the side bun or whatever that you put on
35:40
their plate or, you know, maybe they're like fruit or whatever,
35:43
maybe the cheese is on the side and they love cheese and they
35:45
can just kind of eat that. But something that's preferred.
35:48
So that and immediately allows them to be like, yeah, there's
35:50
something here that I enjoy that I know about and that I can kind
35:53
of feel safe with. And so if you're kind of doing
35:57
your job of providing, you know, a safe food and still exposing
36:00
them to like the new learning foods, you can feel pretty
36:03
confident that there's something there that they can rely on.
36:05
And so that if they refuse to eat, you're like, OK, well,
36:08
that's OK. It sounds like you're not
36:09
hungry. I always encourage my kids like,
36:11
even if they're like, like, yuck.
36:13
And like you. And I'm like, you're saying that
36:14
to me kind of thing. But like, yeah, but like, you
36:16
know what I mean? Like if they even refuse a meal,
36:19
I'm always like, OK, you don't, you don't have to eat it.
36:21
Like there's a lot of power into saying like, you don't have to
36:24
eat it. What I would love is for you to
36:26
sit with us for a little bit. Like, why don't you like, ask
36:29
everybody about their day? And you can kind of lead like
36:31
the talk about everybody's day type of thing.
36:34
And so just kind of keeping them at the table alleviates
36:37
attention a lot of times because I think a lot of kids enter the
36:40
table thinking like, if I if I'm here, it means I have to eat
36:44
kind of thing. So they're constantly like, I
36:45
want to leave, I want to leave, I'm done kind of thing, right?
36:47
Yes, trying to get down from the table, but I'm trying to teach
36:50
my kids like, I don't care really if you eat.
36:51
Like I would love obviously if you did, but like unbothered, I
36:55
don't care if you eat. I would love for you to stay
36:56
here and just like chat with us because like this is a place
36:59
that we connect as a family. I haven't seen you all day.
37:01
You've been a daycare. So I want to hear about your
37:03
day. Yeah, yeah, that's so beautiful.
37:05
I love it Now. OK, let's go through.
37:09
We do like a little rapid fire going through the different
37:11
stages. Yeah, OK, so let's go from going
37:16
from milk to starting solid. Yeah.
37:18
Tell me, what are some of your favorite, like just tips.
37:21
Do you like the baby? Do you like the whole food
37:23
eating? Do you like purees?
37:25
Like and you could be honest, this is just your personal
37:27
opinion, not your professional. Yeah, yeah.
37:29
So solid starting solids is like my favorite phase of fading.
37:33
Like I am pretty sure I'm done having two kids, but like I
37:36
would like the reason to have a third kid would be to do that
37:39
phase again for me. Like I just love it.
37:41
It's so it's so fun. It's I love seeing a child like
37:44
explore food for the first time and I love being a part of that.
37:48
So like that's part of like one of the services Ioffer is
37:50
actually like joining you to start solids together and
37:52
providing that kind of expertise.
37:54
And it's like my favorite package ever because I get to be
37:56
there and like watch these babies enjoy foods.
37:59
And in terms of like, do I like baby led weening like I do I
38:03
like the ideas of it? Yes.
38:05
The big emphasis on self feeding is kind of what I like because I
38:08
like to foster that independence.
38:10
There was a time, of course, where parents were able to be
38:12
way more involved in their kids feeding journey, like
38:15
essentially into toddlerhood until they entered kindergarten.
38:18
But the reality is that a lot of our kids are entering daycare at
38:21
12, between 12 and like 18 months typically, or entering
38:24
some sort of childcare situation because parents have to go back
38:27
to work. So I really like to think about
38:29
that and set our kids up for success.
38:31
And part of that is like encouraging that self feeding.
38:34
So I think they're part I like about baby led weaning is the
38:37
self feeding emphasis, But I don't necessarily feel super
38:39
strongly that you have to give like big pieces of food to be
38:42
more successful, right? By any means.
38:45
Um, I often encourage families to like, listen and respond to
38:50
their babies. It's called responsive feeding.
38:52
So essentially like your baby's responding and you're like, or
38:55
like queuing, sorry. And then you respond to it kind
38:57
of in the same way. When they're queuing for hunger,
38:59
you respond to them by feeding them and then they that they're
39:02
done, you respond to them by ending the meal kind of thing.
39:04
Yeah, so that's what responsive feeding is.
39:07
And that can kind of be quite nuanced because for my first,
39:11
for example, I really wanted to do baby led weaning like the big
39:14
pieces of food because I was like, this is such a cool idea.
39:17
Like I love like the progression of like, more complicated
39:21
textures and challenging him to like, develop his oral motor
39:24
skills and like a more advanced way.
39:26
But he hated eating like every single meal would end in tears.
39:30
Like I would be giving him like big pieces of broccoli, big
39:32
pieces of chicken, and he would just like, throw them and be
39:35
like, so upset. And then I quickly realized that
39:39
he was getting really frustrated and he still kind of is like
39:42
this, like he's a very quick to frustration child.
39:45
And so if he can't do something, he's more likely to feel free to
39:48
give up. And I think I was just like
39:50
causing him to be frustrated because he wasn't actually
39:53
eating any broccoli. He was just kind of mouthing it
39:55
and he actually wanted to eat it.
39:57
And so we switched to purees and meal times like eased off so
40:00
much and he was like eating so many purees.
40:02
But then we could kind of combo fad with like a bit of like a
40:05
big piece of food with like some purees.
40:08
But all that to say is that like for me, I have.
40:10
This idea of, like, how I wanted feeding to go, but it obviously
40:13
wasn't super positive for my son.
40:15
Yeah. And so if you're able to be open
40:18
when you're entering this kind of phase of feeding, it's really
40:20
nice to be able to, like, listen to your child and actually,
40:23
like, put away your own, like, expectations and just kind of
40:26
like, lean into what your child's saying.
40:28
And my child was saying that he hated maybe that winning.
40:32
Isn't that's like just so true about any stage of parenting?
40:35
It is like the number one thing that I think, you know, when I
40:38
have experts like yourself on the podcast or just friends
40:40
former chatting, it's like you just have those who have fixed
40:44
expectations and are unwilling to like just relinquish the
40:48
control of how you think something's going to go.
40:51
Whether it's like the pregnancy, it's always the person who has
40:55
the biggest expectations, their pregnancy that have, you know,
40:58
hyperemesis and it's like, it's just, it's so sad.
41:01
It's so unfortunate, right? Just and it's so hard.
41:03
It's we all have expectations of how we think something's going
41:06
to go, but you're so right. It's, it's, there's, I don't
41:09
think it's woo woo to say intuitive.
41:12
Like there is a level of intuition.
41:13
There is a level of like reading the room.
41:16
Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly.
41:17
Literally reading the room. It's like an emotional
41:19
intelligence piece. Totally.
41:20
Like, we. We don't know this kid.
41:22
Yeah. You know, I don't really know
41:24
you. Yeah.
41:25
You're your own person. Yeah, totally.
41:27
So once we get past kind of the, like, initial, like, baby, you
41:30
know, phase. And we've talked a lot about
41:32
like the plate and. Wow, my mind is absolutely blown
41:35
about like sugar and fat and stuff.
41:37
This might be controversial. Can we talk about milk for a
41:39
second? Yeah, I think this is one that
41:41
is, while we were talking before we hit record about like the
41:45
politics around food and how ridiculous things are right now
41:49
these days, I feel like milk is getting a bit political.
41:53
There's the people who are really into raw milk.
41:55
There's the people who are really against all milk, you
41:59
know, the people who think it's just pure sugar and like this
42:02
and that, like what what is what do we know right now to the best
42:07
of our ability and the knowledge we've got these days?
42:08
What do we know about milk? It's importance what it's used
42:12
for, especially as you kind of get into like for the 345 plus
42:15
ages like I grew up having to have milk with.
42:17
Dinner. Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.
42:19
So I think with everything with nutrition is like if you are
42:23
hearing something that it's like a yes or no, like black and
42:25
white, it's probably wrong, right?
42:28
Like nutrition is so nuanced that there's no like right or
42:31
wrong answer for this. And that kind of goes with milk
42:33
as well. So for me, I do recommend, you
42:37
know, offering your child either, you know, cows milk,
42:39
like Homo milk, 3.25% milk or soy milk as their primary, the
42:44
source of like calcium essentially in their diet.
42:47
The reason I don't often recommend like plant based milks
42:50
is because they aren't actually as like nutritious in terms of
42:52
like fats and proteins and just thinking about like your toddler
42:55
like they're quite small and they can fill up on milk quite
42:58
quickly. But we want to make essentially
43:00
like maximize their intake. I kind of mentioned before that
43:03
we're looking at like those high fat foods as being one of the
43:06
components of their meals. And milk is like a higher fat
43:09
food. And same with soy.
43:10
Soy is like has a higher fat content.
43:12
And so we're looking at something that's a bit more
43:14
robust in terms of nutrition so that we're not just like filling
43:16
them up on something that essentially just has calcium in
43:19
it. Like for example, fortified
43:21
almond milk, right, right. So I'm coming at it from like a
43:24
nutrition perspective. I don't actually have super
43:27
strong feelings in terms of like, you must do cows milk or
43:30
you must not do cows milk or whatever.
43:33
I'm always like leading the taking the lead at the family.
43:36
So a family's like, no, we just don't have dairy.
43:38
Like I don't have dairy. I'm like, great, well, fortified
43:40
soy milk is a great option or fortified pea protein milk.
43:43
Or if you're going to use almond milk, this is how I would use
43:46
it. And so kind of giving them tools
43:48
to be able to optimize what they want to use.
43:50
The family is like, yeah, I don't care kind of thing.
43:53
Like Garry's great. I eat it all the time.
43:54
I'm like, perfect. Then I would recommend cows milk
43:56
because it's easy to get and kids typically enjoy it.
44:00
Yeah. I think the place where I see
44:02
milk being really hard for a toddler is that sometimes we
44:05
think that breast milk and formula is equal to cows milk
44:09
and breast milk and formula is so different from cows milk.
44:13
Like breast milk and formula can be the primary source of your
44:15
baby's nutrition and actually even some toddlers nutrition
44:18
because like in the hospital, for example, we have kids who
44:22
are on an exclusively formula fed diet because they're, you
44:24
know, being fed through a tube or whatever.
44:26
And it can actually account for their needs, like with certain
44:29
tweaks. And so like, that is very
44:32
different from something that's cows milk, which is essentially
44:35
mostly calcium. And so oftentimes if we think of
44:38
it as like that direct replacement, what we see is
44:41
actually kids filling up on too much cows milk, where they
44:44
actually might start to overfill on cows a displaces the
44:48
nutrients from other foods. And there's actually something
44:50
that we kind of call in the hospital called the milk baby,
44:53
which is a child that has iron deficiency because essentially
44:56
it's kind of creeped out all the iron sources in their diet to a
44:59
point where it's actually now clinically significant.
45:01
And so that's like one of like the most common nutrition things
45:04
that we see at Children's is a milk baby, a baby who's like
45:07
reliant on too much cows milk. And they would come into the
45:10
hospital. For severe iron deficiency,
45:12
yeah. And usually like a lot of like
45:15
micronutrients that are low, they're usually not getting
45:17
enough energy. And so yeah, there's a wow.
45:21
Yeah. It's so it's like, it's one of
45:23
those things again, we're like milk needs to be used in
45:25
balance. It's never, you know, all or
45:27
nothing with everything, with nutrition.
45:29
And so for me, like I like to treat milk as food.
45:32
So it's not going to be the replacement for breast milk or
45:35
formula. You can offer it like alongside
45:38
meals, like put it in the cup, offer alongside meals.
45:40
Think of it as like the high fat component of that meal that
45:43
you're giving. So whether it be like as a snack
45:45
and treating it like a mini meal, a high iron muffin with a
45:48
high fat cup of milk, that would be a great little mini meal AKA
45:52
snack. Yeah, right.
45:53
Something like. That OK yeah oh, that's
45:56
fascinating. And at what point are we
45:58
supposed to like our children, say 12 year old, 16 year old
46:01
like are they meant like is that I guess no, I'm answering my own
46:05
question because you just said it's just the high fat component
46:08
of the meal so yeah, right. So like.
46:10
There's lots of other calcium sources in the diet, right?
46:13
And so that's what like, of course there's no, like I think
46:16
sometimes we emphasize cows milk because it's an easy calcium
46:19
source, right? Like, just like a little bit
46:21
easier to drink a cup of milk than it is to kind of have
46:23
yogurt three times a day. Yeah, Right.
46:25
And so it can kind of be paired alongside meals.
46:27
And I'm not trying to dismiss the fact that kids actually do
46:29
require calcium, and we want that in their diet.
46:32
But all that to say is that if you're able to get calcium from
46:34
other sources, you don't have to offer that your child's cows
46:38
milk. It's not a requirement for,
46:39
like, good health. It's an easy way to get calcium,
46:42
but it's not the only way to meet their requirements.
46:45
Fascinating. And so actually that's a good
46:47
question for them being older. Like, we know that kids actually
46:50
go through this phase and like between like 9 to 13, where they
46:53
go through this, like, period where their bones are being
46:56
built. And essentially it's called
46:57
their peak bone building years. Yeah, who knew?
47:00
I know. And so between 9:00 to 13,
47:02
typically a lot of kids aren't actually drinking cows milk.
47:05
So that would be actually a reason to maybe like, add that
47:08
to meals during that time because they actually have
47:10
really high requirements and they're building the bones that
47:13
they're going to have lifelong. Like after that age, they're not
47:15
starting to build bones. They're just maintaining their
47:18
bone density. At that point, so like in
47:20
smoothies, like, yeah, he's always.
47:21
And so then. When I was younger I had would
47:23
have milk based smoothies. Yeah, all the time with like
47:26
some strawberries, banana, whatever.
47:27
Yeah, like exactly. What a great easy way to do it.
47:29
Yeah, exactly like in smoothies in cereal, like at that yogurt,
47:33
like there is a big emphasis on calcium at that life stage.
47:36
But again, it doesn't have to come from right cow smell.
47:39
It's just like the easy source. Mind-blowing.
47:43
OK, And then my final question. I could talk to you about this
47:46
all day. This is absolutely fascinating,
47:49
but this is kind of a sinister way of asking this question.
47:52
But I think it's important if we want to have a child who has a
47:57
great relationship with food. I think as somebody who went to
48:02
an all girl school, visited friends in the hospital with
48:06
anorexia, like were severely, severely ill, not just to say
48:10
it's a girl, it's a woman thing. But it's just my own personal
48:13
experience that having three sisters and actually being
48:18
raised by an amazing mom who like did it right.
48:21
Like all four of us have like really beautiful relationship
48:24
with food. Yeah.
48:25
But I think it's a massive fear that we will have children who
48:29
have a poor relationship with food, whether you because you
48:32
have a great relationship or you don't have a great relationship
48:34
with food and you're scared about what might happen.
48:38
So the question is, how do we raise children to have a great
48:43
relationship with food when they're older?
48:45
Yeah, that's a real, that's a really big question.
48:48
We could talk about it. Forever.
48:49
We talked about forever. So there is this framework that
48:52
I like to use called the division of responsibility that
48:56
actually supports having a really healthy relationship with
48:58
food. And so if I have to answer that
49:00
question, in a nutshell, it would be to use that framework.
49:03
And so the division of responsibility essentially
49:05
outlines roles for the parent. I'm going to outline roles for
49:08
the child during meal times. And so the parents role is to
49:12
choose what foods are offered when meal times are and where
49:15
meals take place. So sometimes, you know, that
49:18
will be the pouch because you're, you know, at the park,
49:20
you have no other food. You get to choose what's
49:22
offered. Meals might be, you know, in the
49:25
car sometimes, especially like on pickup, for example, they
49:28
might be at a friend's house picnic in front of the TV for
49:31
movie night or whatever. Like that's kind of your choice.
49:34
And then your choice is also when so when kids eat.
49:37
So if your child's constantly asking for a snack to circle
49:40
back to your, your child, you could always say like, oh, it's
49:43
not snack time kind of thing. We're having a snack at another
49:46
time. But then it's also your
49:47
responsibility choose what, right?
49:49
So make sure you're giving them like a robust snack.
49:51
And so you have a lot of power in terms of meal times, but it's
49:54
never really about like the intake piece because that's your
49:58
child's role. Your child gets to choose if
50:01
they eat and how much they eat. So if they eat or what you're
50:05
offering, they get to choose that.
50:07
They can choose if they eat everything that you've offered,
50:09
some of it that you've offered like nothing that you've offered
50:12
and they get to choose how much. So again, like thinking about
50:17
maybe your own meal times, like if your child just wants to eat
50:20
pasta and they want more and more pasta and you actually have
50:23
it available, then that's their choice.
50:25
They get to eat as much pasta as they want.
50:28
And so it's really about listening to your child's body
50:31
or letting, sorry, letting your child listen to their body and
50:34
also trusting their intuition. Of course, there's like nuances
50:37
and parameters around some of these things, but it's not about
50:40
like inserting your own beliefs about food and dictating what
50:43
they should and shouldn't eat. It's about allowing them to
50:46
choose and also not raising them to believe that certain foods
50:49
are better than other foods because realistically, it's all
50:52
just food, right? So I think the division of
50:55
responsibility in a nutshell is a really nice way to raise that
50:58
like healthy relationship with food.
51:00
And then if I had to answer one other thing is I think there's a
51:03
big, um, there's sometimes like a bit of a hierarchy with foods
51:08
in terms of like good versus bad food.
51:11
So I think the labels are another way that you can kind of
51:13
foster that relationship with food and essentially removing
51:16
the labels from food. Like not saying that this food
51:18
is good or this food is bad. Like food doesn't have a moral
51:21
value. It's just food, right?
51:24
Like a donut is food as well as broccoli is food.
51:27
And so I think sometimes we inadvertently say like, oh, you
51:30
can't have any more junk food type of thing.
51:32
Like just so quickly, right? Like I, you know, that it's so
51:36
easy because we were literally raised like that and nutrition
51:39
education in elementary school for us, I'm sure we were told
51:42
those types of things, junk food, not junk food, healthy
51:44
food, unhealthy food type of thing.
51:46
But really by categorizing and then forcing your child to like
51:50
understand that category, you're now putting foods on a pedestal
51:54
and almost making it seem like certain foods are bad for them
51:56
to have in terms of like morality.
51:58
And they don't understand what you mean by bad.
52:00
They're just thinking like, if I like this bad food, that's a
52:04
donut, does that mean that I'm bad?
52:05
But I feel shameful. Should I feel guilty for that?
52:09
And that's a lot of where some of these like food thoughts and
52:11
like the over. Like I guess the over like I
52:16
guess the overthinking when it comes to food comes from is just
52:19
like should I be having this food or not?
52:22
Wow, That's the wrap up. That's the wrap up.
52:26
That is. So that is such good.
52:28
I mean, that's good advice for all of us.
52:29
That's good advice for adults who might be, you know, still
52:32
working with it, working through it.
52:34
And that's great advice for parents who are raising, you
52:37
know, kids who have beautiful relationships with food, which
52:39
everybody who listens to this will now have the tools that
52:43
they need, feel equipped to feed and enjoy the table with their
52:46
family. Selena, that was unbelievable.
52:48
Thank you. So.
52:49
Much for coming for having me, I appreciate.
52:51
Appreciate it too. Where can everybody find you,
52:54
reach out, work with you? How does that work?
52:56
Yeah, so I am founder of Every Eater, which essentially is a
53:01
essentially A dietitian LED myself led company where I
53:04
support families with building a healthy relationship with food
53:07
and starting solids. And, you know, navigating all
53:09
the phases of feeding like the pickiness, the transition to
53:12
daycare, weaning off of the breast or bottle, all those
53:15
types of things. You can find me at my website,
53:17
every intercom. I'm also on Instagram at every
53:20
eater. And yeah, I support families in
53:23
BC and a lot of the services are covered by extended health
53:26
benefits. So check your benefits.
53:28
A lot of the packages are like fully covered.
53:30
Perfect. Absolutely beautiful.
53:32
Thank you so much. Thank you so much.