Latest / Therapy and Theology / S12 E1 | How To Build a Family Where Everyone Belongs

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S12 E1 | How To Build a Family Where Everyone Belongs · Therapy and Theology

• 00:00:01 [Shae] Welcome to today's episode of Therapy and Theology, where we help you work through what you walk through. I'm your host, Shae Hill, and I'm so glad you're tuning in today. 00:00:10 [Shae] This season is called Fight for Your Family, where each week we will equip you with biblical wisdom and therapeutic practices to more intentionally fight for the ones you loved. In today's episode, you're gonna hear from Lisa TerKeurst ,Dr Joel Mudamalle, and counselor Rebecca Maxwell as they cover what both fosters and fractures a sense of belonging in your family unit. I can't wait for you to hear it. 00:00:35 [Shae] As you fight for your family this season, maybe you're inspired to ask a question that sounds something like this. How do I really help the young people in my life who are struggling emotionally and mentally? If that's you, whether you're a parent, grandparent, or someone who called to help, we're here to help you. 00:00:55 [Shae] That's why I wanna tell you about the Youth Mental Health Coach program from the American Association of Christian Counselors and Light University. It is a biblically based, clinically excellent training that equips you with practical, real world tools to support youth and their families. 00:01:13 [Shae] You'll learn how to recognize 15 of the most common mental health challenges that young people are facing today, including anxiety, depression, digital addiction, and emotion regulation. You'll also learn how to respond with care, when to step in, and when to refer to a professional. 00:01:31 [Shae] Right now, you can receive a full tuition scholarship and get started when you pay a one time $54 technology fee. Friend, this is the training that will give you the confidence to make a real difference. Learn more today and apply at mentalhealthcoach.org, or you can visit the link in our show notes. 00:01:52 [Shae] And before we jump into today's conversation, here are reminders. We are launching a brand new podcast exclusive segment in 2026 called Listener Mail, brought to you by Compassion International. 00:02:05 [Shae] These segments will include a question pulled from one of you, our listeners, and an answer from either Lisa, Jim, or doctor Joel. Tune in on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, and make sure you listen all the way through to the end so you don't miss this special segment of each episode. 00:02:24 [[Shae] And lastly, we want to know genealogy is helping you work through what you walk through. So leave us a review or a comment on YouTube and tell us all about it. 00:02:34 [Shae] Okay. Now on to today's conversation. 00:02:38 [Lysa] Welcome to Therapy in Theology. I'm so excited. We're starting a new season today, Fight for Your Family. I'm Lisa Terkuerst, and joining me today is licensed marriage and family therapist, Rebecca Maxwell. Not only is she an incredible therapist, but she's also a very dear friend. 00:02:57 [Lysa] I always love when I get to work with you, Rebecca. 00:02:59 [Rebecca] So glad to be here. 00:03:00 [Lysa] Yeah. And then, of course, he doesn't really need an introduction. If you've ever listened to or watched Therapy and Theology, you know doctor Joel, and thank you so much, Joel, once again for all the wisdom that you bring to the table. 00:03:14 [Joel] You bet. I think I'm looking at twins, though. Right now? 00:03:16 [Lysa] I know. 00:03:17 [Joel] I mean, not this is gonna mess me up. 00:03:18 [Joel] I'm just letting you guys know. But, no, I'm so excited to be with you. 00:03:22 [Lysa] Yes, we’re just going to go ahead and acknowledge it. We're dressed alike. We have the same hair. 00:03:28 [Joel] I love it. 00:03:29 [Lysa] There we go. 00:03:30 [Lysa] I'm really excited about this topic because I think there's so much fighting against marriages and family and raising kids today. So we wanna focus specifically in this whole season, how do we fight for our family? In this first episode, here's the topic, a topic that I really feel passionate about, things that fracture and foster belonging in a family. 00:03:57 [Lysa] You know, as I was raising my kids, and a lot of people ask a lot of questions, you know, because now my kids are in their late twenties and all the way into their mid thirties, so, you know, Lisa, how do you raise children? 00:04:11 [Lysa] Do you have any advice? And I'm like, hang on for dear life and spend a lot of time on your knees, right? 00:04:17 [Lysa] But if you were to say to me, what helped your family? What helped your children? Especially in light of the fact that I went through and survived a very unwanted divorce, and so talk about a way to fracture belonging in the family. 00:04:33 [Joel] Mhmm. 00:04:33 [Lysa] But I would say that that word belonging became so crucial that I tried to instill a sense of belonging in my family from the time my kids were little and we went through something really hard and a part of our family walking away. That sense of belonging, while it was rattled, it was not destroyed. 00:04:52 [Lysa] Yeah. 00:04:53 [Lysa] And so I wanna talk about things that we can do to make sure to not fracture a sense of belonging, but really foster that sense of belonging inside of a family. And before we jump into some of the technical stuff, Joel, I know you have something that your family uses to help foster this sense of “We are the Mudamalle’s”. 00:05:17 [Joel] Yeah. 00:05:17 [Lysa] Like, we are together. And, Rebecca, as we were studying for this. You have something as well. Like, we are the Maxwells. So let's start there because I love how when a family has a statement, a declaration, or a definition of who we are as a family, that's such a great first step to fostering belonging. 00:05:38 [Joel] Yeah. I mean, I would just say like this entire conversation, it's funny as you start talking, Lise. It's like this season's about, like, fighting for your family. There's a little bit in it because sometimes it feels like my family are the ones that are fighting me, you know, and I'm trying to fight for the family. 00:05:51 [Rebecca] Right. 00:05:52 [Joel] And so we're kind of in the thick of things right now. We've got four kids, teenagers, 14, 13, 11 are boys, and then we've got a little girl who's six years old, and we're in the thick of it. And so I come to this conversation simultaneously, learning. Like I'm gonna take a lot of notes because I'm excited to learn from you, Rebecca. And then also just a deep sense of, awareness that this Not easy, you know? 00:06:19 [Joel] I literally, on a daily basis, my wife, Britt, and I are talking about this, and we had some things that have happened in the last couple of years where we recognized that we assumed that our family knew what our family was about. You know what I mean? Like, of course we know what our family's about. 00:06:34 [Joel] Of course we know that we love Jesus. We go to church. Of course we know these things. And then it kinda dawned on me that we're just presuming a lot of these things, and we didn't have something that just reinforced, you know, the identity markers of what it means to be part of family. 00:06:50 [Rebecca] Yeah. 00:06:50 [Joel] And I think of like even the Sinai moment with Moses as he goes up to Mount Sinai. You know, God gives the 10 Commandments Yeah. As a means of an identification marker to the people of Israel so that they would be a people who are set apart, but set apart with a purpose. And that purpose wasn't to build like a monastic society with a bunch of walls to withdraw. It was actually intended to be a winsome witness to all the nations, the, people groups that were all around them, fight them into the beauty of what it meant to be part of the family of God. 00:07:24 [Joel] And so as Britt and I and my wife were talking about this, we're like, gosh, how could we put this into paper and just try to, communicate what it meant to be a Mudamalle? And so we came up with the Mudamalle family covenant. And, we intentionally used the word covenant, for this. 00:07:43 [Joel] You could read contract, but we felt like covenant was, a bit of a biblical thematic word to point that, there are the responsibility here, you know, that both ways and, this is serious. And so this is what our purpose is and I want to read, like, everything that's in here but just to highlight, our purpose. 00:08:01 [Joel] As a family, we desire to love and serve God and each other. We believe that our home should be a place of peace, respect, honesty, and grace. This covenant is our shared commitment to live according to God's word and build trust through our words, actions, and choices. 00:08:19 [Joel] My wife, Britt, she often says words without actions mean nothing, you know, and so that was kind of a big part of it. And kind of the highlight list for us, it's like respect and honor, honesty and integrity, kindness and compassion. 00:08:32 [Joel] The sub point for kindness and compassion is we're gonna be people who forgive quickly. That's very important to us. Obedience and responsibility, trust and technology. That's a big one. Can't wait to learn more about that from you. Open communication and then faith and being a household, a family unit. 00:08:50 [Joel] And so, just having this has been really good. We've got a spot for everybody to sign it, date it, and we actually return to this at least once or twice a month, not just when things are going well, or just when things are going not so well, but as a routine pattern to keep this in front of us. 00:09:08 [Lysa] You know what I love about that is that your kids know that this is something your family does that's probably different from other families, and I can imagine some of the teenagers like Liam 00:09:22 [Joel] Trust me. 00:09:23 [Lysa] And Levi, like, seriously, we have a family contract, we have a family covenant or whatever, but then I can also picture them going to school and, like, man, my parents are so crazy. We have this family covenant, but secretly in their heart, they kinda like it. 00:09:38 [Rebecca] Yeah. You know? Because it's something that's theirs. It's their family. It's like an anchor inside the unit. And I think that belonging happens when we do that, when we have certain anchors, certain distinctions of our family that make us uniquely, you know, a unit. It's like, we are the family. I think you can do this in other ways too. 00:10:01 [Lysa] I think inside jokes. 00:10:02 [Rebecca] Oh, yeah. 00:10:03 [Lysa] You know, a big thing in my family is we love to talk about funny things that have happened, family unit. And because everybody experienced those, it's like remember the time that, Champ, our our dog that we used to have, remember the time that Champ blah blah blah, and everybody in the room can finish the sentence. 00:10:22 [Joel] Mhmm. 00:10:22 [Lysa] Everybody knows the story. Everybody starts laughing because they know what the punchline is, you know, before it's even said. 00:10:28 [Joel] Yeah. 00:10:29 [Lysa] And so I think it's those kinds of things that are so crucial. 00:10:33 [Lysa] Rebecca, I know you have, like, we are the Maxwells. 00:10:37 [Rebecca] Yeah. We did a family covenant years and years and years ago. I don't even know where it is. It's been lost in maybe a couple moves, but we always used that family covenant to ground our kids in who we were, which obviously was an extension because they were very little when we did it. 00:10:54 [Rebecca] It was an extension of who my husband and I wanted to be, how we wanted our family to be represented and to be, I love that you said, a winsome witness. And so we always use that covenant when our kids did something that was kind of against this covenant, we would start with, hold on a minute, this doesn't line up with who we are as Maxwells. 00:11:17 [Rebecca] Maxwells are kind. Maxwells are compassionate. So we used it as a tool to discipline, to get kid our kids kind of back on track with who we've all agreed to be and who God has called us to be as a family unit. So we really kind of used it as a, as a discipline tool. 00:11:37 [Rebecca] Instead of just, alright, go to your room, you're in trouble for this thing, we used it as a correcting tool. I think God does so much in the Old Testament. He says, wait a minute, guys.This is who you are. Like, remember who you are, and that's kind of how we wanted to work discipline in our family. 00:11:54 [Joel] Did you guys ever have a family motto? Is there ever, like, a family motto that you guys went by or, like, that you said? 00:12:00 [Lysa] Yeah. I mean, I think I had several. They have different seasons. What's yours? 00:12:03 [Joel] Well, okay. So I know some people are like, oh, Joel did, like, a whole family covenant. It's so biblical. You've got all these. Okay. 00:12:08 [Joel] So this is the family motto that just reminds everybody that we're also just humans and just regulars. So Brit started this a long time ago and tomorrow whenever the boys would leave or Emmy leaves the house or I leave the house, Brit would always say, Remember, don't be an idiot. 00:12:22 [Joel] That's the family - And so now to your point, Lise, whenever their friends come over and their friends are about to all leave, Britt will yell, What's the family motto? And all the kids will yell, Don't be an idiot. 00:12:33 [Joel] They'll walk out, but it's just one of those things too to point out, like what you guys are saying is there's something about this that is so special to outsiders that see it. 00:12:43 [Rebecca] Yeah. 00:12:43 [Joel] And they long for it. 00:12:44 [Rebecca] Yeah. 00:12:45 [Joel] You know? They want that sense of stability. Yeah. I just love that. 00:12:48 [Rebecca] My husband says make good choices. Now that you said that, I'm like, oh, he always says make good choices, and he'll tell all the friends if there's as they're leaving the house to make good choices. 00:12:57 [Lysa] And ours was remember who you are, which you just mentioned a little bit ago. But because we'd spent so much time building our family values into that statement, remember who you are, we didn't have to stand at the door and say, okay, now remember this value, this value, this value, because we connected all of those values in sum total of saying, hey, remember who you are. And a good name is better than all the riches in all the world. 00:13:25 [Joel] So good. 00:13:26 [Lysa] Another thing that we did that tradition called Monday night dinners. And so here's what would happen on Monday night. My kids knew that was the night they could invite their friends to come over. They didn't have to tell me in advance. 00:13:45 [Lysa] We just prayed whatever I cooked that it was like fish and loaves, you know, that just multiply. And if not, pizza delivery is always a... Pizza delivery will cover over a multitude of lack. 00:13:56 [Rebecca] That's right. That's right. 00:13:58 [Lysa] And so I would make dinner, and here's here's what kinda became the secret sauce or the specialness of that night is I would throw out a topic, and the kids would defend it. So I would kinda play devil's advocate. 00:14:13 [Joel] Uh-huh. 00:14:14 [Lysa] And so a couple of examples of that were, like, I would say, you know, I've decided I don't want to wear my seat belt. So now how would you guys convince me to wear my seat belt. Right? 00:14:26 [Rebecca] Yeah. 00:14:26 [Lysa] And it just became this wonderful thing. One time we even, said tonight, we give a prize for whoever makes the best presentation on why we shouldn't drink and drive. 00:14:37 [Joel] Oh thats good. 00:14:38 [Lysa] And so, I mean, some of them came with, like, a poster. Some came with a speech. One of my daughters even did a full blown PowerPoint. And, you know, it just made a a distinction, you know, of, like, this is what our family does, and their friends could participate in it. And it became such just a lovely sense of belonging, not just for my own kids, but for my kids' friends. 00:15:01 [Lysa] And we wanted to be that house. We want a home, that safe space. 00:15:05 [Rebecca] Yeah. 00:15:05 [Lysa] So, yeah, I love all of these practical ideas. Let's talk a little bit about the things that fracture a sense of belonging in a family. There's four things that as we did our study day and prep day that we came up with that we feel like are the four things that fracture a sense of belonging inside of a family unit. 00:15:27 [Joel] Yeah. 00:15:27 [Lysa] Now we're borrowing some things from Doctor John Gottman's The four horsemen of the apocalypse, which is our killers in a relationship. So his four things are contempt, criticism, defensiveness, and stonewalling. 00:15:41 [Joel] Right. 00:15:42 [Lysa] So in that same vein, here's what we came up with together as our therapy and theology best attempts at saying, this is what fractures a sense of belonging. So I'm gonna list them and then I want us to talk about them. 00:15:56 [Rebecca] Okay. 00:15:57 [Lysa] So we have simmering resentments or blame. 00:16:01 [Joel] Mhmm. 00:16:01 [Lysa] You know, a simmer is gentle until it continues to agitate. The more heat is put in, the the more a boil starts to happen. 00:16:11 [Rebecca] Yeah. 00:16:11 [Lysa] And those simmering resentments can easily boil over. And as our friend Jim Kress says, what we don't work out, we will act out. 00:16:20 [Joel] Yep. 00:16:21 [Lysa] The next one is unforgiveness. Doesn't really need a definition. We know what that is. Dishonesty is the third one, which incorporates the selfishness and secrets. 00:16:32 [Joel] Yep. 00:16:33 [Lysa] You know, secrets really can kill a family unit. 00:16:36 [Rebecca] Oh, yeah. 00:16:37 [Joel] Yeah. 00:16:37 [Lysa] Because people feel that things aren’t right, but they just don’t know exactly what it is. 00:16:42 [Rebecca] Right. 00:16:43 [Lysa] And then favoritism, which you and I have studied a lot the story of Joseph in Genesis. 00:16:49 [Joel] Oh, yeah. 00:16:50 [Lysa] And that favoritism had the outcome of the brothers hating Joseph so much. The father favored Joseph 00:16:59 [Joel] Yes. 00:16:59 [Lysa] In a very public way 00:17:01 [Joel] Yeah. 00:17:01 [Lysa] In front of the other brothers. And, eventually, we can see this, this, the simmering resentments happened 00:17:07 [Joel] Yeah. 00:17:08 [Lysa] And then the unforgiveness and the dishonesty happened. And, eventually, they planned to murder Joseph and, at the end, decided to betray him by selling him 00:17:19 [Joel] Right. 00:17:19 [Lysa] And then going back and telling the father that he was dead. So we see this concept of favoritism and how it can seem like a little thing at the beginning, which a lot of these are, can seem like a little thing at the beginning, but left unattended. 00:17:33 [Lysa] Left unsubmitted to the Lord and biblical principles, these little things can become very big things and truly capture that sense of belonging. 00:17:42 [Joel] Yeah. 00:17:43 [Lysa] So, Rebecca, I'm sure in being a licensed marriage and family therapist that you see this playing out in everyday scenarios and families all the time. 00:17:52 [Rebecca] Yeah. For sure. I think I mean, I could talk about all of these, but, the one thing I wanna kind of focus in on is the simmering resentments because there are a lot of families that have these moments of disconnects, they have conflict, which is totally normal, but a lot of families don't know how to work through that conflict very well. 00:18:12 [Rebecca] So they'll they'll let it simmer or they'll sweep it under the rug, they'll just kind of go along to get along, but all the while there's this stuff that's kind of undone that's simmering, and then they start, you know, you you create these stories in your head about what is simmering and they grow and they grow and they grow just like in the story of Joseph, and so that's a big one. 00:18:36 [Rebecca] And obviously it it it fits with unforgiveness because something's happened and there's no repair, there's no ness, there's no acknowledgement, maybe there's maybe people are stuck in their defensiveness, but it snowballs into this this big thing and it may have started as a very little disagreement. 00:18:54 [Lysa] Mhmm. You know, whenever we experience a trauma, it's not just about the action of the trauma that impacts us so greatly. That impacts us for sure. But the bigger side part of the trauma is the story we tell ourselves. 00:19:13 [Joel] Yeah. 00:19:13 [Lysa] And it's that story we tell ourselves, really, in my mind, determines whether it's gonna grow as a trauma or whether it has an opportunity to walk toward healing. 00:19:23 [Joel] Yeah. 00:19:24 [Lysa] And so we do need to listen to those stories that we tell ourselves because you may hear simmering resentments and you may think, yeah, that's not me, that's not what I do, but then sometimes listen to the story because here's what can happen with the simmering resentment. It can be that a line is spoken over you inside the family unit and because the people in your family unit, their words carry weight. 00:19:47 [Joel] Mhmm. 00:19:47 [Lysa] Line is spoken over you that then turns into a lie that you start to believe. 00:19:52 [Joel] Mhmm. 00:19:53 [Lysa] That then can turn into a label that you put on yourself, which then can turn into a liability in all of your future relationships. So this is really serious. 00:20:03 [Joel] Yeah. 00:20:03 [Lysa] Joel, what are your thoughts on this? 00:20:05 [Joel] You know, what's so fascinating to me is that each of these four things, simmering resentments, unforgiveness, dishonesty, and favoritism show up in the first three, four, five chapters of the Bible. And particularly, we've talked about Joseph. I wanna take a look at the Cain and Abel story. 00:20:20 [Joel] And the Cain and Abel story, and you know, Lysa, one of the things that you've taught me over the years is like think about the humanity of the text. 00:20:26 [Lysa] Mhmm. 00:20:26 [Joel] And there's an idea in biblical where you have prescriptive and descriptive actions or things inside of the bible. And so prescriptive, it's like telling you exactly what to do. Descriptive is describing a situation. 00:20:40 [Joel] And so with the Cain and Abel story, we have a little bit of a mix of prescriptive and descriptive. The descriptive aspect of it is the way that Cain responds to the fact that his offering wasn't received the same way that his brother's was received. Right? 00:20:56 [Joel] But then we have a prescriptive conversation, which is God who in before Cain does the sin, which is a wild thing to me, that before Cain even, like, acts on the sin, the Lord comes in, and the phrase that's used in Genesis chapter four of Cain is that he was downcast. 00:21:14 [Lysa & Rebecca] Mhmm. 00:21:15 [Joel] That phrase downcast is actually a Hebrew idiom that has in mind anxiety, depression, frustration. There's something internal that was going on and I kinda wonder, Lys, what was that story he was telling himself? 00:21:30 [Joel] You know what I'm saying? 00:21:31 [Lysa & Rebecca] Right, yeah. 00:21:32 [Joel] We're not giving the details of how many offerings, all, like, but we know that it happened and some time had passed, so I just wonder, like, every time Cain went and saw it, it's like, what was the thing? 00:21:42 [Joel] Like, why does Abel get to do that? 00:21:45 [Lysa] This is so unfair. 00:21:46 [Joel] This is so unfair. 00:21:47 [Rebecca] Maybe I'm not good enough. 00:21:48 [Joel] Maybe I'm not good enough or, you know, and you're just left with that and so you've got this simmering resentment 00:21:53 [Rebecca] Mhmm. 00:21:54 [Joel] That is, boiling up to the point of contempt and hatred up until the point that he is pondering murder. And the Lord comes in and says, and I think it's just so fascinating. He says to Cain, sin is crouching at your door. And then he goes, hey, by the way, you must overcome it. 00:22:11 [Lysa] Mhmm. 00:22:11 [Joel] It's not an option. 00:22:13 [Lysa] Yeah. It's like it says, sin is crouching at your door. It desires to have you, but you must rule over it. 00:22:22 [Lysa] And isn't it fascinating also that's right there in the very beginning, like, the one of the I think it is the first time we see this kind of animosity between siblings. 00:22:33 [Joel] Siblings, Yes. 00:22:33 [Lysa] And then if you go all the way to Ephesians chapter four, you know, right where it says an instruction to us, you know, do not let the sun go down on your anger, and right after that, it gives us this warning or else you will give the devil a foothold, and it sounds so similar. So I think these, these things, like these simmering resentments, the unforgiveness, the dishonesty, the unfairness that can be created within the favoritism dynamic, those things are left unattended. 00:23:07 [Rebecca] Yeah. 00:23:08 [Lysa] It's kind of like dropping blood in the water and the shark draws near. 00:23:12 [Rebecca] Oh, wow. 00:23:12 [Lysa] It's like the enemy loves this kind of stuff. 00:23:16 [Lysa] The enemy loves it when we fight against one another. The enemy loves these simmering resentments. And I would imagine the enemy even tries to, like, set up scenarios, you know, where it's like, oh, watch this. Watch this. This is gonna feed that simmering resentment. 00:23:33 [Lysa] The enemy can't read our mind, but he can sure pay attention to what we say, how we act, the act we represent. And all of this is a very defined container inside of a family, and it can either be the safest place in the world or it can be a toxic environment that harms the individuals that are there. 00:23:52 [Joel] You know, I am pretty fascinated right now. You don't even know this, Lysa. I'm really studying the story of David right now, like, kind of obsessed with David and his life. And the person that I'm actually really, taken back by is Jonathan. I'm really Because, like, again, I'm just thinking. I always think Jonathan absolutely gets the short end of the stick. 00:24:13 [Lysa] He really does. 00:24:14 [Joel] He truly does. Like, his dad is a knucklehead. He recognizes it. He even sees Dave, right? And the way that the Bible portrays, I kind of think what's happening, and I'm thinking this out in real time, so just forgive me if there's a mess up here, but I actually think there's something here, That the Cain and Abel story is actually reversed with the David and Jonathan story. 00:24:35 [Joel] But David and Jonathan, their relationship is so intimate, it is so close like brothers and, John, every reason to have simmering resentment 00:24:45 [Lysa] Yeah. 00:24:45 [Joel] Unforgiveness, to be dishonest in his interactions, to, you know, leverage favoritism for his for his benefit, and yet he consistently does the opposite with it. He recognizes who he is, who God is, who the anointed one of Israel actually is in David. And even when it cost him something, he maintained that kind of bond that he had committed to with David. I think that's kind of a fascinating reversal of the Cain & Abel story. 00:25:13 [Lysa] Such a good story. 00:25:14 [Lysa] Rebecca, I know that we're coming to a close on this episode, but I want you to quickly touch on the opposites of this. And When we were doing our study today, you mentioned the four S's of attachment. 00:25:28 [Rebecca] Yeah. 00:25:29 [Lysa] And that was really important. So we've talked about the negative things that we need to watch and tend well to, so they don't grow and become fractures to that sense of belonging. 00:25:41 [Lysa] But I love these four s's because I feel like that kind of is the solution here to making sure we have healthy attachments and healthy bonding and belonging inside of a family. 00:25:54 [Rebecca] Yeah. Absolutely. There are four s's coined by, neuropsychiatrist Dan Siegel, and he is, a practitioner that looks at attachment. And attachment is the bond that we have. Mostly, it it comes from studying the early attachment and bond between mother and child. 00:26:16 [Lysa & Joel] Mhmm. 00:26:17 [Rebecca] And so that attachment relationship is really believed to be the foundation for, developing human development. So it's really a human development theory that in this bond, an infant learns first to trust. The very first task of human development is to trust. And when that completely dependent infant can trust their caregiver, they can grow out of that secure bond. 00:26:46 [Rebecca] And so over the years, though, attachment theory has spread into what we understand, to be important for adult relationships as well. So it now is a developmental theory from cradle to grave because now we see, and this is backed up by scripture, that we need these attachment relationships all the way through our lifespan, that God shows us that we need to be first completely dependent on him, but then also interdependent and securely attached with those around us. 00:27:18 [Rebecca] And so these four s's, Dan Siegel, they, they really mirror what we see in scripture. And he said that we need to feel seen, really understood and known, we need to be soothed or comforted. We need to be, safe. Right? 00:27:35 [Rebecca] So we need to know that with the people that we're with, that we're emotionally and physically safe with them. Obviously, that breeds trust. And then secure. 00:27:46 [Rebecca] We need to know that we we belong, that we have a place. And this is really important to the formation of identity, and we see these four things in the scripture as well. God provides all of this for us. He calls us by name. 00:28:00 [Rebecca] We are, there's Psalms that talk about that we are safe in his care, that we are secure, we have a belonging in his family, that we are secure, and that we are soothed as well. I mean, all through the Psalms, David needs to be soothed a lot. 00:28:15 [Joel] Yeah. 00:28:15 [Rebecca] Right? And we see that and we take that on for ourselves as well. 00:28:20 [Lysa] That's amazing. So I guess all of this kinda begs the question, it's very obvious. We've given some practical examples about the family motto and, you know, the family statement that you can say as you send your kids out the door. 00:28:32 [Lysa] Let's also, just for a moment, tend to that mom that's listening who says my kids are grown, and we didn't have this, and I'm not sure I wasn't aware of these four s's, and I'm not sure, you know, that I've done a good job. I just wanna encourage you, if that's you, it's never too late. 00:28:53 [Joel] Yeah. 00:28:54 [Lysa] It's never too late. 00:28:56 [Lysa] I was even thinking as you were reading off the, you know, the covenant, I'm like, oh, maybe I need to do this with my adult children, them help write it, help create it. Because the next generation is here. 00:29:09 [Joel & Rebecca] Yes. 00:29:09 [Lysa] You know? 00:29:10 [Lysa] By this summer, I will have 10 grandchildren. 00:29:15 [Rebecca] Wow. 00:29:15 [Lysa] 10. 00:29:16 [Joel] Amazing. 00:29:16 [Lysa] Isn't that amazing? 00:29:17 [Joel] I know. 00:29:19 [Lysa] So it's not too late because there's another generation. There's still influence that you have. And even if it's not with your immediate family, you've got other people paying attention to who you are and how you are. And so… 00:29:33 [Rebecca] Yeah. My boys are looking for wives. 00:29:35 [Lysa] Exactly. 00:29:35 [Rebecca] And this is very important to choosing well. 00:29:40 [Lysa] That's right. 00:29:40 [Joel] I'm not ready for that. You just created anxiety inside of my heart, so I'll just 00:29:45 [Lysa] That's okay. She's gonna soothe you 00:29:47 [Rebecca] I’m getting a little sweaty just thinking about it. 00:29:49 [Lysa] She She's gonna soothe you with some wisdom right now. So we'll wait for that off camera. 00:29:54 [Joel] That's right. That's right. 00:29:55 [Lysa] But thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of Therapy and Theology. I hope that it has been helpful, and remember, we wanna help you walk through, work through what you're going through. 00:30:09 [Lysa] So thank you so much for tuning in, and we can't wait to see you at the next episode. —---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 00:30:15 [Shae] And now it's time for listener mail where we respond to your questions. 00:30:19 [Shae] Today's listener mail is brought to you by Compassion International, which I am so excited to tell you more abou. Compassion is fighting child poverty in powerful, practical ways. Through the work of local churches and the generosity of sponsors like you and me, Compassion is releasing children from poverty in Jesus' name. We’ve seen the impact of up sponsorship firsthand, through education, medical care, healthy food, clean water, and the love and hope of the gospel. 00:30:47 [Shae] And now we want to invite you to join us in sponsoring a child. When you sponsor, you'll receive a copy of the Proverbs 31 Ministries study guide titled Keep Holding On as our thank you for investing in the life of a child. Go to compassion.com/lysa to choose a child to sponsor today. 00:31:07 [Shae] Okay, friends. Let's hear today's question. 00:31:09 [Shae] This listener says, I am conflict avoidant. I get afraid of someone getting angry with me, even if it's a situation I'm observing. I get anxious when others get angry, and I've been a peace there to keep others from becoming angry with me. How can I overcome this anxiety over conflict and anger? 00:31:28 [Shae] I'm gonna pass it off to Jim Cress to answer this question. 00:31:31 [Jim] So I often say that our words frame our reality and our questions frame our reality. You said you're a conflict avoidant. You get afraid if somebody is angry with you, and you've also been a people pleaser to keep others from being angry. 00:31:47 [Jim] And then the next question, how can I overcome this anxiety over conflict and anger? Well, a couple of things is I'd want you to actually interview or explore your anxiety. You might do that with a therapist, a good friend, or even in a journal. What am I really scared about? 00:32:05 [Jim] Always remember Proverbs 20 verse five. The purpose is in your heart are deep waters. So a person of understanding goes down deep to draw them out. 00:32:14 [Jim] I'm always gonna look at this isn't just your personality or just something the way you operate. It's often what we call a style of relating. Somewhere, you develop the ability, if you will, to kind of the relational style to say, I will people please. 00:32:30 [Jim] And when you're a people pleaser, the number one person you're trying to please is yourself, and I will avoid conflict at all cost. Where'd you learn that? And then often, if it's hysterical, it's historical. Where would you be anywhere in your life story, any previous relationship, or the family you grew up in? Like, that's not safe. Maybe you actually walked on eggshells, and you learned that behavior, which means you can unlearn that. You know the serenity prayer is very important here. 00:32:58 [Jim] God grant me the peace. Oh, I need some peace here to accept the people I cannot change. I'm not gonna try to change them. I need, Lord, the courage to change the person I can change person I can change and then the wisdom to know, well, the only person I can change is me. Always play pay attention to your internal world, what's going on with you. 00:33:17 [Jim] And anxiety there can be your friend, not your enemy. It will give you data of what you actually also need to deal with with God.