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The Trust Recession: Rebuilding Belief in Brands, Retail & Real Human Connection with Kate Assaraf · Serious Lady Business

• Leslie Youngblood (00:01) Welcome to Serious Lady Business. I'm Leslie Youngblood, your host, feminist and founder of Youngblood MMC, a marketing media and content agency. Today we are joined by Kate Asserif. Kate is the founder of DIP, a sustainability forward haircare company redefining beauty without plastic or pretense. After years in the beauty industry, Kate saw how marketing excluded real women and greenwashed the truth. So she created DIP to do things differently. Welcome to Serious Lady Business, Kate. Yes, we are gonna be talking about the trust recession today. And this I think is so important for us to dig into. And I feel that is not being talked about in a lot of spaces, even though I feel like as soon as we said it, people are like, yeah, I see that too. ⁓ You're building dip in the middle of what, you know, this trust recession. What does that mean? Kate Assaraf (00:31) Hey, thanks for having me. Yeah. So I think I can speak for a lot of consumers that if you were asked, hey, have you bought something that promised to be amazing online? And then when you got it, you were so. utterly disappointed and felt like you had been duped by the marketing. Like that's what we're talking about. We're talking about how we got to this point where, where like you used to kind of have a face-to-face interaction with someone at a store or you would touch and feel things and you could ask opinions and all that that were human and real. And then we've, we've created this huge canyon between that and what exists in commerce today. And what exists in commerce today is, you know, there's all these cottage industries. that are review farms or dishonest UGC or influencers that will peddle anything for a paycheck. And so you're starting to see the consumer is starting to, that we're recoiling. I'll put myself as a consumer because I buy things even though I own a good business. We're recoiling. Every time I see an ad or a... Leslie Youngblood (01:42) No. ⁓ Mm-hmm. Yes, of course, of course. Kate Assaraf (02:04) or an endorsement or anything. I'm just like, I don't even trust that. So ⁓ that's what we're seeing in commerce. I've noticed it for the, you I started my company four and a half years ago and I was like, you know what? I'm gonna pretend that all these deceptive marketing tactics don't exist. And I'm gonna be very straightforward with my customers so that they know if someone sees something about Dip online, whether it's... good or bad, it comes from an actual non-incentivized person. Leslie Youngblood (02:35) Right, right. You are so spot on there. I feel like just the other day I was on Instagram and of course I'm served up ads on stories and it was celebrities talking something or talking about something and I'm like, really? I mean, especially, you know. Kate Assaraf (02:44) Thank Leslie Youngblood (02:51) in the health and wellness space too, right? Where it's all the things, yes, it's booming because we all want to be proactive about our health or the Fountain of Youth or all the things that we get inundated with. And I feel like I even Googled something. I believe it was even like, man, it was some kind of drops, like, ⁓ for lymphatic drainage. Yes, and so I Googled. ⁓ Kate Assaraf (02:53) Yeah, that was booming. Yeah. yeah, I've been a victim of those, like going down a rabbit hole of those. Leslie Youngblood (03:18) Yeah, and so I'm like, do you need these drops? It's like, no, there's no scientific back evidence. But it's so easy to fall into that hypnotizes view and you think, wow, yeah, help them or they're doing this and look at them. And so how could we not? And then you couple all of that with, like you shared the rise of online consumerism where you see a product and you can't touch the product and you order it and it arrives to your house. My mom just ordered a pair of boots for my aunt arrived the wrong color. Kate Assaraf (03:22) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (03:46) And it's like, you know, it's just crazy. so, you know, and you are somebody too who studied economics, which I'm sure is so fascinating too with everything that you're doing now. How did that shape how you saw this shift coming, Kate? Kate Assaraf (03:47) the worst. Yeah. So economics for me is more behavioral than it has to do with money. It's really the study of choice and how people choose to use resources one way or the other way. Or how someone chooses between one product and another. Or they have a certain amount of disposable income. Like where are they putting it? And so I have always been fascinated by choice. So much so that when I was... building dip, watched people buy shampoo and conditioner for six months at different levels just to see what the behavior was. It's like, let's see how people are actually shopping for this. Let's see what someone how they interact with different brands like, and it was a really fun study to do is a little bit creepy. Also, I'd be like my trench coat and Leslie Youngblood (04:48) Yes! Kate Assaraf (04:48) ⁓ No, I found it really fascinating to see that the behaviors were pretty much similar. And when I built DIP, I took what I learned and put it into how I wanted it to manifest into an actual product line. Leslie Youngblood (05:03) amazing and I think brilliant too because you had an idea it's very scientific backed of you as well where right and you and thoughtful and you had an idea you wanted to validate the idea and learn about human behavior behind it and then go and build something based off of that which sets you up for success regard you know and such a way to couple that when you have an incredible product like you do just create something really special and important and then so you start dip and you decide to build it through small businesses, the small independent retailers instead of Amazon or even Big Box, why did you go against that digital playbook, Kate? Kate Assaraf (05:43) Well, there's a heartfelt reason and a strategic reason. So I'll start heartfelt first. ⁓ I am someone who has been sustainable for the past 10 or 11 years, and I have been shopping in refill stores. I am the customer of my own product, but I'm the customer that was so frustrated with different bar shampoo and conditioners that I want. I was so frustrated with, especially conditioner. I wanted it to be like the really luck stuff that I. bought in salons. So that's why DIP exists in the first place. you know, so that I knew that my customers were shopping in that in those kinds of stores, these refill stores. And I also know that, you know, the heartfelt side continues like this, the people that own refill stores, they're like, kind of rock and roll like that. It's true punk rock economics to open a refill store, which is slow consumption in a time of Amazon. And Amazon, when a sustainable brand goes on Amazon, it tends to decimate the sales of that product in the refill channels and all retailers, to be honest. Once you see a brand go to Amazon, it immediately becomes the place to buy it for everyone. So I thought, what if I just added that one, like intentional level of friction to get people into stores? And so when they get into a store to buy dip, Leslie Youngblood (06:42) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Kate Assaraf (07:12) And so it's surf shops, salons and refill stores, but mostly for refill stores, this behavior of getting someone into that store to buy dip, they can also see every other vetted, tried and true, like sustainable replacement ⁓ on the shelves. So the idea was always bigger than shampoo and conditioner. was like, I really want behavior change. I want people to realize you can go into a store. Leslie Youngblood (07:29) Yeah. No. Kate Assaraf (07:40) you'll know that you can talk to a store owner about dip if you're not sure if like the price scares you or the performance or any of those things. Like someone, an actual person can talk to you about it. And then on the other side, you can be like, my God, like I don't have to buy paper towels anymore because they have Swedish jizz cloths or I don't have to, you know, buy a box of pasta with like the plastic window because I can refill my pasta here. Like whatever the store has on hand, they're all kind of different and that's what makes them cool. Leslie Youngblood (07:56) you Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kate Assaraf (08:08) But that was very much strategic and I ended up falling in love with the kind of person that opens these stores. yeah, that's how that all came to be. Leslie Youngblood (08:14) Yeah. I love that so much. And I'm sure that as right as it felt that there was certainly criticism about you doing that. yeah, tell us a little bit about what people were telling you and also why you didn't listen to them. Kate Assaraf (08:26) This is Yeah. Well, you know, I got called like ⁓ kind of an idiot ⁓ among industry peers because they were like, why wouldn't you want to scale, scale, scale? Like Amazon's a no brainer. You could 10X your sales if you put it on Amazon. And I'm like, okay, but like to what cost, right? Here comes economics again with the study of choice. Like put everything on Amazon and watch these stores. Leslie Youngblood (08:40) Mmm. Money, on you, Okay. Kate Assaraf (09:00) that helped build my brand, do you watch them close? Some of these stores sell per door, some of them are selling upwards of $50,000 a year of just dip, so dip pays their rent. Some are selling $75,000 plus worth of dip a year. Imagine what that is for a small store. That is a lot of money, but when you talk to a big beauty brand, they're talking always in the millions, and they're talking in these huge numbers. And to be honest, like, Leslie Youngblood (09:04) Mm. Wow. Amazing. Kate Assaraf (09:29) I don't really fantasize about having a huge brand. I fantasize about having a brand that means something. And I think the dip means something in these communities where it's stocked. Leslie Youngblood (09:35) Yeah. Yeah. And it must mean so much to you, especially with these small business owners that own these stores and they get it and they love it. They get it and right. And it's so authentic and they invest in your product. Like they're giving their money to you because they believe in it. And then they're bringing it to their customers who love it and are giving them money. It's like just such a beautiful chain. I feel like, it makes so much more sense to do it that way. That's almost like the OG influencer, right? And so Kate Assaraf (09:46) They get it. Yeah. I agree. Leslie Youngblood (10:08) You guys don't really engage with influencers and being paid per post. Tell us how your views on that, where it's, what does it mean when that small store invests in your product, puts it on the shelf versus an influencer that's just going to go and talk about it online. There's a lot. Kate Assaraf (10:24) Well, I have no problem with influencers in general. It's actually, have a problem with the brands that only use influencer marketing. that's my issue is not with a human trying to make a living. I never have that issue. with, with Dip, wanted to, I just wanted to, I don't know how to explain it in the, like I wanted the stores to be the rock stars. I wanted them to be the, the, Leslie Youngblood (10:29) Mmm. and All right. Kate Assaraf (10:51) place that you trust, right? Because a store tries, so say shampoo and conditioner, they try, you know, there's more than 200 bar brands right now. So they've tried every version or all the versions that they wanted to, and then they end up stocking their favorite. And so, in so many instances that ends up being dip. And it makes me really happy. But people don't understand that when you see something on a shelf, that store owner generally has vetted everything that they're selling because they have to invest. Leslie Youngblood (11:11) Okay, yes. Kate Assaraf (11:20) Whereas an influencer is not departing with their own money. In fact, they're taking money for the endorsement. And it's just a different business model. And so as a consumer, I'll trust a small store owner over an influencer any day, just because I know the systems behind it and the mechanics behind it. Leslie Youngblood (11:31) Yeah. Right, right. And I think so many of us don't even realize that when we see these things being peddled online, right? And just the, obviously we know our small businesses are so unique and special and important to our communities and our local economics as well. But like you said, they tried all the things, you know that they're not just putting something. Kate Assaraf (11:45) Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (12:01) to make a buck on their shelves, right? And so that it's important you can trust that. And when we have this trust recession, it matters so much more than ever. Why do you think we've confused convenience with trust, Kate? Kate Assaraf (12:15) Well, I think, mean, everyone, I mean, you go to a zoo and you see the animals are just sitting around. Like, I think that might be the natural state of, well, the zoo is not a natural state, but if you go on a hot day, like outside in the wild, know, the animals are just sitting around. I think like we're still animals and we're we're still prone to sitting around. You know, like I think that there's like a natural. Leslie Youngblood (12:33) Yeah, true. Silly animals. was just beautiful. Kate Assaraf (12:42) know, tendency to want to take the easiest route to do something. And when you see someone who's like running marathons or, you know, working like crazy hours or doing all of these things that just seem like, ugh, like I don't, you know, ⁓ that they're outliers to what kind of the normal behavior is. And I think the normal behavior has fed into the, you know, the explosion of convenience. But I think at the cost of honesty. Leslie Youngblood (12:45) yeah. Hmm. Mmm. Kate Assaraf (13:12) So I don't think that those things go together. I don't think convenience and honesty. think that it creates ⁓ this, you know, I don't know, conditions for dishonesty to thrive. You see like AI, you know, the AI has gotten really, really good. It's crazy good. You see that, you know, you can create a fake customer to suit any avatar that you want. Leslie Youngblood (13:33) Creepy, Kate Assaraf (13:40) And that's crazy. Like you can create all sorts of fake versions of who you want your customer to be and how relatable and you can pepper these avatars with flaws so they seem like real people and you can have them, you know, misspeak a little bit, but like stay on break. You can do whatever you want with AI. And I think that that is one of the scariest things for consumers right now. If, you know, as just as someone who, you know, Leslie Youngblood (14:03) Mmm. Kate Assaraf (14:07) I like convenience too. I'd like to just sit down and just buy everything from my phone, but I don't trust anything anymore after being in marketing. I will go the extra mile to go into a store to buy something at this point because not only like say you buy something online and say it's a great thing, the, you buy a piece of clothing and it has like a rip or scuff on it or has been used before. Then you like are then stuck in this AI hell loop to get Leslie Youngblood (14:13) imagine how you like discern how all the things, Kate. Mm-hmm. Kate Assaraf (14:37) your money back or replacement. I mean, even as far as what happens, even like there's nothing to really protect a consumer except a chargeback. And even that you see like the worst version of consumers, like there are consumers that do a lot of chargeback fraud. So it's not just like the sellers are being gross, like consumer ends up being gross too. And I get it. Like I get why people behave that way. Leslie Youngblood (14:50) Okay. Yeah, yeah, ooh, that's so true, so true. And could think and talk about that for a while. And I think it's important to, like you said, we want authenticity, but we still default to Amazon. Why do we do this, Kate? Why? Why do we do this? Kate Assaraf (15:17) I Cause we're all just animals sitting around in the sun. don't know. No, I think, I think cause it's easy, it's easier and we're busy. Whether that busy is real or fabricated, whatever you think busy means for yourself. Like it, you know, it's a lot better sometimes to just click and add to cart. It's a, but I think people are starting to kind of see themselves surrounded by all this stuff that the impulse purchased. Stuff that they didn't really need or. Leslie Youngblood (15:24) We're all for monkeys. Kate Assaraf (15:50) actually didn't even want, they just wanted at that moment and indulged. And you're starting to see like, people are fed up with it, you know, there, there's so many algorithms that are trained on our behavior and how we shop and what part time of day and all these things. And it works. And it gets people to buy stuff that they don't really, they wouldn't have normally bought had they just been browsing a store. And Leslie Youngblood (15:54) Mm. Right. Right. Kate Assaraf (16:15) And it ends up, and you the environmentalist in me is like, ends up creating a lot of waste, ends up creating a lot of garbage, ends up creating, you know, like just, just this empty field, like that dopamine hit you get when you buy something really fast, it's gone. It's very fleeting. By the time it shows up, you're like, I forgot I bought this thing. That's not good for the world, to be honest. Leslie Youngblood (16:20) No. Yeah, right. Right, right. It's not good for the world and it's not good for you. And then and that even doesn't count for the human connection part of things, right? What happens to human connection when commerce becomes this solo screen based algorithm driven process, Kate? Kate Assaraf (16:45) No. Great. I don't know. I think it becomes very sad. Like I know that I can buy a book. So I had a friend that just had twin girls and I know that I can buy the book on Amazon and have it like tomorrow. But I do, I also know the woman who owns the bookstore in town, the little bookstore. And it takes two weeks to get the same book through the bookstore. It's fine. Like those twins were just born. They're gonna, they're gonna be around for while. I don't need it yesterday. I can wait for it. to support the small bookstore that is in my town. it's like, store owner knows better than any algorithm what I want to read next. Like I go in there, like, hey, do you have anything for me to read? And she's like, I do, I just got this. So that human to human connection, that is, I don't know, I always wanted the world to be like Richard Scarry's world when I was little. I wanted to be the busy, busy town. And it requires people to be out and in their own town. Leslie Youngblood (17:47) Yeah, so hot. Kate Assaraf (17:55) engaging with the store owners and not just the store owners, restaurant owners, you know, all of the things that are really at your, you know, that make your town cool. Leslie Youngblood (18:03) Yeah, definitely. And you've said that shopping also was never meant to be a solo sport. How did we lose that communal aspect, Kate? Kate Assaraf (18:08) Yeah. Yeah, it's crazy. When I think of shopping, and I don't have my mom anymore, but when I think of my joys of shopping in general, it wasn't always buying stuff. It was going and with my sister, my best friend, or my mom, or sometimes a combination of us, and just kind of like tootling around the mall. It wasn't about the buying. It was about the being together. It was about the holding the shirt up to your... your sister and be like, this will look really great on you. It was a social thing. And so with Dip, I've tried to create a social piece of it when you're shopping with someone. The bars, they have a hole in the top of the box so you can smell them. And we have seven different scents and fragrance free. And so I've watched now, the watcher in me has watched people go and interact with the brand. And it's exactly everything I dreamed. was like, you know. Leslie Youngblood (18:43) Yeah. ⁓ Mm-hmm. Kate Assaraf (19:04) a mother and daughter going in and they're smelling all of them and they're talking about which one that they like the most and which one they would never buy. like, that's like really fun for me and I love bringing that experience back into stores. Leslie Youngblood (19:10) Yeah. Yeah. And the little notch in the top to smell it, flippin' brilliant. Because what's the first thing too that you do? I hate when soaps are wrapped or anything. I'm like, what does this smell like? Am I gonna really like this? Or you know what you're trying to smell the shampoo that's more in the bottle because the scent is super important and your scents are amazing. And I used my drip this morning and I can smell my hair and I'm telling everybody listening right now, please, the Sage Inventiver is just incredible. I love it so much. Kate Assaraf (19:22) Thanks. Yeah. ⁓ Yes. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Leslie Youngblood (19:46) and your scents are super luxe and you do provide this really incredible luxe shampoo and conditioner experience with this incredible sustainable ⁓ mission at the core. Was that, and again, like those things, like you said, you would go to salons, you would want something that would function the same way as these high-end fancy pantsy shampoos and conditioner. When you have this idea, Kate Assaraf (19:59) Thank you. Leslie Youngblood (20:13) Did you have a background in product design or even, know, like the chemistry of like making things, you know, like that? Kate Assaraf (20:20) I did. So I didn't start from zero. I had been in the beauty industry for 20 years and, you know, it became sustainable, I'd say around 2014. That's when I learned about plastic, not only accumulating on the planet, but also the health repercussions from, you know, endocrine disruptors and all those things. So I learned about that in 2014. And it's only now, what, 12 years later that that's becoming real. conversations among the public. And during that time, I tried, I, you know, I could make every swap except the haircare. Like the haircare was real. And I didn't want to start a company, but I was like, I will do it myself because I was so frustrated. I was like, I, then, and then it became like this whole other thing. It's like, oh my God, I can like use this company to get people into these refill stores and get people to like care about plastic. Leslie Youngblood (20:47) way. Kate Assaraf (21:13) by accident. That was the thing that got me so excited. was like, I, and then every time like a new refill store would open, I would call them and be like, hey, this isn't the best haircare you've ever tried, like bottled or unbottled. Like that's fine. You can tell me to scram, but if it is, please put it in your store and I'll try, do my best to get people in there. And I had refill store owners like calling me from their towel after their first shower. And it like made me so happy. Leslie Youngblood (21:14) Yeah. I wanted to after the first time I tried it because again, not that like you have these preconceived notions about green beauty products, but they've really gotten better. I feel like over the years because people have, you know, we've just evolved and things are better. And I was just blown away. just, I mean, it's just incredible. I just love it so much. And I also love what you just said about how you looked around and were like, nobody's doing this. I guess I'm Kate Assaraf (21:52) Yeah. Thank you. Leslie Youngblood (22:06) I have to do this, right? Because did you have entrepreneurship in your life growing up? Was that something that you kind of like circled around Kate or was it like, well, I guess, okay, okay. Kate Assaraf (22:06) Yeah. I did. I did, but that's, you know how hard it can be and you know how miserable it can be and you know how risky it can be and you know all of these things and you still have like an unscratchable itch and you still do the business, you better really, really believe in what you're doing, you know, because I don't think owning a business is particularly that fun. I don't think, I don't think it's that fun. Leslie Youngblood (22:21) Yeah. Mmm. Yeah, yeah. ⁓ No. but the influencers make it look like it's so fun and glamorous, right? And it's like, look at me. And you're like, no, this sucks. Kate Assaraf (22:44) You made it so fun. Yeah, what makes my business really fun to run, like what gets me springing out of bed in the morning is the refill store owners, the surf shop owners, the like stylists and like hair care professionals that really embrace what we're doing. But then also my team, have like a team of, including me, there's seven of us and we're so tight and we're so like, I just love the team. So I think, okay, starting a business stinks, but you pepper in the things that make it amazing. once you kind of get the ball rolling a little bit. so I would say having a team is probably the best thing that's ever happened to me. They make it so much less lonely. I know it's very in style to be like a solopreneur. And I was one for the first 18 months and then I my first hire and then another hire. And watching like your business grow is probably the most exciting thing. And not replacing all your team with AI. Leslie Youngblood (23:44) Yeah. Kate Assaraf (23:48) which is like very in style right now, is even better. It's way more satisfying ⁓ to have actual humans on your team. Leslie Youngblood (23:48) Mmm. Mmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, my goodness, can't even, I totally agree. Totally agree. And you know, it has to be where it's so much fun when the team gets that vision and sees it, right? Because you think I'm crazy, I can't see this. Now I have to do this and I'm doing the thing. And I think that's such a common, that's something that I've heard so much from other female entrepreneurs is like, you look around and you're like, is anybody gonna do anything about this? And it's like, ⁓ crap. Kate Assaraf (24:06) Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (24:23) I guess I have to write Kate Assaraf (24:24) Yeah, that's fine. Leslie Youngblood (24:25) and you do it, but then you can't you can't not do it. And I think when though, you know, you're doing the right thing because it'll come, it'll chase you down until you actually give into it, too. And so to be, yeah, and to be able to find others who to connect with what you're building with the product, with the brand, with the mission and the ethos and understanding that. And it is so special because you think I must be crazy. And then, no, others totally get it, too, and want to help you see it through and Kate Assaraf (24:31) Yeah. Yeah, that's true. you Leslie Youngblood (24:53) grow it in the right way is really special. Kate Assaraf (24:56) It's the most special thing about it. I, you know, it's like, you don't really realize how exciting what you're doing is until, until you have a team and you have like a movement and you have a community. Like it feeds you in a way that is, it just feels so warm. ⁓ you know, having customers that really love the product and solves a problem for them and the feedback they give us is such a warm. Leslie Youngblood (25:14) Mm-hmm. Kate Assaraf (25:23) It's like when you first get in like a warm bath, feeling. It's so nice, but it takes a long time to get there and you get a lot of, you have a lot of days where you're getting into a cold tub, right? The warm bath when it comes, it's so nice. And then it's your responsibility to try and warm the water for others. So you wanna make sure that like any kind of success you have is shared and that's what- Leslie Youngblood (25:26) Yeah. Yeah, you earn that warm bath, Bailey. You overdue for the warm bath usually when it comes. Mmm. Kate Assaraf (25:52) that's so fun about like the store, the retailer network we've built is that like, whatever we do that helps us grow also helps them grow. And it gives, you know, it helps them get more customers in. And that is even cooler to see, like, because as a brand, we've redirected $5 million back into local economies. So that's money that didn't come to us, it went to the stores. And that is probably the coolest thing. Leslie Youngblood (26:14) amazing. Kate Assaraf (26:21) ⁓ like when you have this mission and people like make fun of it and say you should be on amazon and you're like no no no i think i i think i know what i want to do but you can't confidently say that until you do it so now we're four and half years in and that and now i can say that that's what we did Leslie Youngblood (26:32) Yeah. I love it. And you're getting the recognition, truly deserved for that. I know that you were included on Oprah's 2025 number one pick for curly hair. How exciting was that, Kate? Kate Assaraf (26:42) Thanks. It was really exciting. didn't, we didn't even enter. So someone, one of their editors found it through one of the hairstylists in New York City that loved and talked about it. so you see like that word of mouth recognition is genuine. It's so, I mean, that was really like a shock when that email came in. Leslie Youngblood (26:57) Wow. Mm. So fun. you know, I think that again is a testament to who you are, what the brand is doing, the mission, and you're doing it right. But if you're listening to this or you're you're watching other brands build wrong or they're losing trust, how do they rebuild trust in this world where everyone assumes everything is sponsored or AI or just trying to get their money? Kate Assaraf (27:35) Yeah, well, well, there's nothing wrong with advertising or building that way. So I don't actually poo poo people that put out ads and it's actually it's the the conversation is bigger than a single brand advertising, right? Like because the trust has been eroded. It's like an aggregation of erosion of all the bad players out there. It really hurts the good the good guys out there that are selling something amazing. ⁓ But, you know, I think I think Leslie Youngblood (27:54) Yeah. Kate Assaraf (28:04) One of the best ways that someone could build trust as a brand is to have human customer service. I think that's probably the simplest way. Like one of the first AI swaps a lot of brands make is cause it's so cheap is a chat bot. And so I thought, I think once I get a chat bot from a brand, I'll never purchase from them again. it's nothing, no, you know, I understand they're busier with all those things, but like as a customer of something, I will wait the 24 hours for the response. I'll wait till if I. Leslie Youngblood (28:10) I'm gonna go sleep with you. Yes. Kate Assaraf (28:33) Send something on a Friday night, I'll wait till Monday to get the response if it's human. And I think that that's where trust can kind of ⁓ be the most important is in your customer service. Leslie Youngblood (28:37) Mm-hmm. ⁓ Mm, yeah, 100%. I know there have been numerous times where I've tried to get ahold of a brand and I just want to talk to a person. Why can't I just get to a person? Why is this so hard? it's because it's easy to to ship that out to a bot and that's you know, and there's companies making billions of dollars off a user chat bot. It's like a human, but it's still not a human and people. always say like people aren't stupid like people get it. And so you're just shooting yourself in the foot. You're assuming that people are Kate Assaraf (28:51) Yeah. Okay. Yeah. No. Leslie Youngblood (29:15) are not as smart as they really are, especially your consumer. Why would you want to think your target audience is dumb? Like, man. Kate Assaraf (29:21) Mine aren't, my consumers are certainly very, very smart. And I like to treat them as if they're smart people. I would, if the chat bot thing gets really under my skin, it's expensive to have a human, have a, in America doing customer service, it's expensive to have her, it is worth every penny and she is wonderful. And I know that, you know, her name is Janet and she's just like, Leslie Youngblood (29:25) Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Kate Assaraf (29:49) She's so warm and even with a prickly customer, she always listens to them and makes sure like she can help them. Sometimes people don't, it's their first time with bars, they don't know how to use them. And so she's very good at explaining if there's any missteps and if someone's like, you know what, I don't want this. She's like so great. It just made me like, okay. You don't have to keep it. We actually don't want your money if you're dissatisfied. And our return rate is like, Leslie Youngblood (30:11) Mm-hmm. Kate Assaraf (30:17) 0.006. So like we rarely have people that are really upset, but when we do, they're treated very kindly, you know. Leslie Youngblood (30:25) Mm-hmm. That is an art because that is not easy. think every person does not their nightmares dealing with the mean customer or like who wants to, you know, who wants to deal with that? And so shout out Janet for being the angel and because whoever does that in any organization truly gets Kate Assaraf (30:28) It's a mark. Hmm Yeah. Can it rules. Leslie Youngblood (30:50) as many flowers as possible because it's not easy. And like you said, customers might even try to game the system or they're just really don't get it and they can't calm down. And so it's like you're a therapist, a customer therapist instead of customer like relations, right? Kate Assaraf (30:57) Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And for the first three and a half years, I did it myself because I thought as the business owner, wanted to know what the gripes were. I think it's important. you know, like it was a ⁓ big, big learning for me. you know, their products, we discontinued because people were like, you know what? I don't really love this. You know, we had like metal tins that were for travel, but they were supposed to... Leslie Youngblood (31:08) we have to. Sure. Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm. Kate Assaraf (31:30) Even though we had in the description, they're like for short term use and you can recycle, they're fully recyclable and everything. People get very upset even if a year later they started to rust. And so, it was like, you know what, we'll put it in wood and we'll just go with that. But I wouldn't have known that had I been so distance from the customer service. I would have just kept selling things that annoyed people later. Leslie Youngblood (31:57) Right. Right. And then wonder why you have a problem. And I think that's something too that can be very easy. As an entrepreneur who's growing, you start and you're super close to customer and you want to grow and you want to unbottle neck and you want to do additional things that you don't need to do. But Kate Assaraf (32:01) Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (32:13) that is not necessarily always a great thing when you aren't staying close to customer. whether you have a tech product, whether you have a beauty product, you have to know what's working and what's not. It just enables you to be a better founder and be a better brand in general. Kate Assaraf (32:28) And when someone adds to cart and someone like is buying something, they're full of hope. Like, this is going to solve my problems. You have to remember you're dealing with that person that, you know, was full of hope when they clicked add to cart and paid for the shipping and did all that. You you have to give them some credit for making that choice and treat them like you're thankful that they did. I've seen many, many business owners fall into that mistake where they argue with customers over stuff. Leslie Youngblood (32:33) Yeah? Yes. Mmm. Mm-mm. Kate Assaraf (32:56) like no, this person believed in what you were selling. it's you even if you don't agree with their assessment of it, you have to remember that they were very excited. They were on your team when they bought it. Leslie Youngblood (32:58) Right? Right. Yeah. You messed up somewhere along the way. And, you know, we do a lot of brand and marketing and that's something too that I always talk about. We work with hospitality brands. I'm like, these customers, sir, this experience of this night out starts long before they walk into your doors. It's long before they make their reservation. It's up to you to close that loop. And if you, they're leaving and are like, it was too expensive or something happened along the way that you didn't close that loop for them. And I think a lot of Kate Assaraf (33:27) Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Leslie Youngblood (33:37) organizations might say like, yeah, and the customer, well, you did this or blah, blah. It's like, there it's you messed up. You have to help them. You're right. No matter what the I know it's trite. The customer is always right. But what's the what's the worst that happens? You give them a refund or you give them any fresh coffee. I don't know. To me, it just always grinds me and my husband always like we're getting frustrated with that. What's the big problem? You just say you messed up. Move on. Kate Assaraf (33:41) No. Yeah. Well, also like I just, I always remember what it's like to buy something because I'm consumer. Like I'm excited when I buy something. Like I, you know, I bought these tights. I bought a pair for my sister and I bought a pair for myself and I haven't bought tights in a long time. And they looked so cool online. They're like one leg was striped and the other leg was polka dot. Like there's really like, but they were like black. They looked like black sheer and having that pattern on them. Leslie Youngblood (34:08) Yes. Yes! Yes. Love it. Kate Assaraf (34:32) And I waited for them for a long time. They're expensive and they showed up. And when you put them on, there was a white cast when the tights stretched. So you thought they were going to be like kind of sheer with these lines, especially for the price. And instead they were just like printed on white tights. were, I mean, I couldn't get anyone on customer service to do anything about it. So now I'm like stuck. Leslie Youngblood (34:45) Okay. Mm. Kate Assaraf (34:58) I said, they're still okay, but they're so disappointing for the price and for what they advertise and the photography is very misleading. Like, because it's not real photography. I then went in with like my, you know, my like it zoomed in on it. It's not real photography. It's all AI. So, and I thought it was like an American company. It came directly, you know, from overseas, all of these things. And so, Leslie Youngblood (35:04) Mmm. you Kate Assaraf (35:24) think about how excited I was to buy these for my sister and I was like maybe I'll get a pair for myself too. Like I even like doubled my purchase and then I there was nothing I can do to to really make it right because the company doesn't care they're overseas. Leslie Youngblood (35:30) Yeah. Right, right. That's so, it's so frustrating. But then it goes to show you somebody that's a intelligent consumer like you can still like, y'all can go get duped sometime. It happens to everybody. Is that right? No. Kate Assaraf (35:47) And now I will only buy tights in person. Like I will not, I will not do it again. I couldn't believe it when I got them. They were so pretty online. and they just look so dumb with a black dress. I hate it. I know, it's crazy. Leslie Youngblood (35:54) That's so frustrating. I hate when that happens. It's so weird. Boo. man. Man, Kate, if somebody is building a brand today, what would you tell them about earning trust versus buying attention? Kate Assaraf (36:13) ⁓ Well, we're in the easiest way to, we're in the easiest time to create trust for your own brand. I am a little bit of a chicken and I like to hide and I don't make videos, but there are many, many founders that are out there making videos for their brand. They talk about the what and the why ⁓ and I think that that is probably on social media, like that's a very easy way to get trust right now. Leslie Youngblood (36:41) Yeah. Kate Assaraf (36:42) Because if you are putting yourself behind your own products, and you're selling mostly online instead of in these specialty retailers, you're the face. And so I think that that's an easy way in. And if you don't want to show your face, I think that you have to be very, very intentional with who shows their face for your brand. Leslie Youngblood (37:01) Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah, for sure. That is such an easy opportunity for us. We have these channels to build, and that's I think is really great about social media and even influencers because it's democratized the playing field in a way for small growing brands and these big, you you don't have Coca-Cola money to go out and spend on marketing or Super Bowl ad, right? And I think, you know, especially one thing too is... Kate Assaraf (37:21) Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (37:27) you can fall into the trap of then I need to go viral or I need to grow my audience. But it's like, especially if you're building with intention, start slow and compound that growth over time. And it gives you that opportunity to learn and iterate and tell people like we actually are people behind this product. It's not about it's not a fake picture. Kate Assaraf (37:34) again. And virality is overrated. Like I would much rather have a video that reaches one to 5,000 people than one that hits 1.2 million. And you know, or two, five million, whatever. Like even 100,000, it starts to sour. So in the beginning, your champions are excited about what you're doing. And then once it reaches like a peak, like say a million plus views on a video, it starts to, the comments almost always start to sour, you know? Leslie Youngblood (37:48) home base. Yeah. Hey. Mm. Kate Assaraf (38:14) And it's not just for, I'm not speaking just about me. just see it every time I see something reach a million, I go right into the comments and I'm like, it started out so good. It went like crazy. And the naysayers came in and like really seem mad that this is like a successful video. And they just like, and so you start to see like the negativity is what's driving a video success. And I always find that to be so tragic for a brand that just like, you know, like Leslie Youngblood (38:18) Mm-hmm. Yeah, it took a turn, took a turn. Mm-hmm. Kate Assaraf (38:41) I was like really excited about it and then it just goes bad. So I tend to for my own company not go for things that I know will go viral because it actually is better in my opinion to keep it kind of tight, the audience more tight and small so it reaches like exactly who it's intended to reach. Leslie Youngblood (38:42) Right. Mmm. Yes, I love that perspective. And then if the virality comes, it comes organically from that good place. Kate, if we're in a trust recession right now, what would an economic recovery of trust look like? Kate Assaraf (39:06) it comes. Oh, well, I honestly, think it would be when you start to see people touching grass again, instead of sitting on their phone. I think it's people that want to like get away, like shake the phone out of their system, put it down and go out into the real world again. I think that's the only way to really get trust back, especially with what I know about AI and what the future of marketing with AI is gonna be. I think people are going to be disgusted by it and they're gonna be angry and they're gonna be like, Leslie Youngblood (39:22) Mmm. Mmm. you One, and. Kate Assaraf (39:46) No, I don't want this. And I think people will have the patience to order something through a store if they can get it that way. Of course, there's no way to homogenize the human experience. Of course, there's gonna be people that still want that convenience and still love to buy things digitally. But I think the aversion is gonna come. And I think people are going to want to shop in person and especially as... brands are starting to put in costs for returns and restock fees. People are gonna be so mad, like, I bought this, it stinks, and now I have to pay you for shipping and to restock. Like that's, think, what is gonna throw people over the edge. Leslie Youngblood (40:18) ⁓ I kind of hope so, right? Because I want to see more of that return, but it is, you know, when we, we don't read the fine print a lot of times, right? Kate Assaraf (40:40) I know you return something so then you're out your money and the object and the time. Leslie Youngblood (40:46) And the time and the time and the frustration. That's what's also thing. It's like you think you're that's the whole trick. I think you think you're saving time by ordering it online and then you're just making more work for yourself. Even when you're ordering from Amazon, it doesn't work. You have to return it to the store in your area. And like now I have to go and add this into my days like Aaron's and wait in that line and right. And I do so hope too that we start to see that. And I do think that we are seeing that there's a lot of indicators that I see. Kate Assaraf (41:05) You the other. Leslie Youngblood (41:15) that especially people are realizing the toxicity of screens and how they are so designed to get us and that you have these high tech founders that don't let their kids have cell phones or tablets. And it's like, well, I was even thinking about this last night as I was on my phone before bed. I was even thinking like, is this what Emma Greed is doing before bed or Sarah Blakely? Are they scrolling their phone? This is probably not, you should probably be reading. Read your book instead. Kate Assaraf (41:21) Yeah. Right. Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (41:44) And so I think, hope that that is just my experience is one, but of many experiences that people are feeling like we need to get away. We need to get back to basics. Kate Assaraf (41:52) Yeah. So I always like, so last night we were at the library because I had that exact feeling. I probably at the same time as you, I was like, I'm going to the library. I do not want to scroll before bed. I don't want to scroll before bed. And it occurred to me because I usually, I usually buy books from that bookstore. And I was like, you know what? I'm just going to, cause I read the more you like, you just read fast. I'm like, I can't afford all these books. Leslie Youngblood (41:58) Yeah. Yeah. Love the library. Right. Mm-hmm. Yes. I know, same. can't be keep spending money on books. Kate Assaraf (42:19) I'm gonna see what's in the new release section of the library. And I like got something and I was reading last night and I was like, this feels so much better than having my phone anywhere near me. And you know what? No one really missed me last night. It was fine. I'm like, no one needed to hear from me. Leslie Youngblood (42:26) Yeah. Yes. Right. And there were no updates on somebody's stories that you just somebody. Right. And I've often and I've tried to where during the evening times when my kids are home and we're not necessarily engaging, I was like, I don't want them to see me sitting on my phone and scrolling. Kate Assaraf (42:35) Yeah, there's no shampoo emergencies online. Me too. ⁓ Leslie Youngblood (42:50) I need to be reading a book. mean, listen, I'm not perfect and I work on it every day. I'm like, I don't want them to remember me as being on the couch glued to my phone, you know, in the evenings. I want, even though, listen, mean, sometimes I'm reading the news. Sometimes I'm trying to educate myself, but it's still, on a screen and so like, I want to have a book, but that's the trick though is like, you need to keep the reading materials in your vicinity so you can grow. Kate Assaraf (42:54) Maybe. I get it. Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (43:16) book and it's like, oh, gotta get to the library. I don't want to spend money and the bookstore is closed. So I mean, yeah, all these little steps though, go a long way and aren't for nothing. Cause right. You're not going to get anywhere if you don't try with this. Kate Assaraf (43:22) I Yeah. I agree. I, I, I excited to hear you say that because I think we're all kind of having that at the same time. Like the turning point has like just happened where we're all like, can we get the hell away from our phones right now? I don't want to see anything. I'd rather walk through the aisles of a supermarket and find out what the new like tortilla chip is than find it online. I don't care what anyone thinks of it online. I'm going to try it myself. Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (43:55) Yeah, right. This is interesting to me. This is grabbing my attention. I'm curious about this. The very, the very purpose of why that thing exists, right? And that viral at or viral influencer like talking about this chip and then you're like, hmm. Kate Assaraf (44:02) Yeah. Especially I learned about click fraud recently. And so like all a lot of the virality is not real. It's just people like there's a lot of something crazy. And don't quote me on this exact numbers. I think it was 73 % of the accounts on meta are fake or bots. So once I learned that I was like, ⁓ and I know the AI can create human like very, very sophisticated human. Leslie Youngblood (44:13) We'll tell her. Hmm. Stop. That's wild. Kate Assaraf (44:38) conversation. So I don't even know if the people in comments are human anymore. You don't have to know. It's actually, you don't know. So you could be like getting trolled by a bot. Spending real time on earth as a very limited time as a human, arguing with a bot online. It's just not what I want from my life or my employees' lives for really anyone. Leslie Youngblood (44:41) Right? That's so true. We don't know. It's so true. Right, I mean you can, yeah, which is wild, which is wild. No. Yeah. I totally agree. And I think also too, as a growing brand to be aware of those things too online where people can buy followers, right? I mean, I've done people, you can buy comments. And so, you know, there's a lot of ways that we can get tricked ⁓ with that, but nothing can trick you when you are in person and engaging. So a good lesson for us all to learn whether we are building a brand or just building a life to remember, you know, what is real and what is Kate Assaraf (45:12) Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (45:34) It's not real. Kate Assaraf (45:35) And to anyone that's listening that has a business, remember life comes before the brand. It's way more important to have the life before the brand. It took me a long time to learn that, especially during the build. Like the build you feel so intensely that you have to work around the clock. But the reality is, is you don't and your life, what's in front of you needs to come first. Leslie Youngblood (45:39) Mmm. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Thank Yeah, well that's a wonderful point to end on. feel like as we wrap up to Kate, Kate, we can't go any better than that. feel like it's a great lesson, important lesson for everybody ⁓ listening and everybody out there. And as we wrap up, Kate, I would love for you to share with our listeners where they can connect with you and shop dip. Kate Assaraf (46:00) you Awesome. So my name is Kate Asaraf. You can find me on LinkedIn. I think I'm the only one. And then ⁓ if you want to discover Dip, go to DipAlready.com or it's at DipAlready for Instagram and TikTok. We spend most of our energy on Instagram. That's where we have the most interactions with our customers. So if you have any, if you want to explore the brand, go to DipAlready.com, click on the store locator, see if there's somewhere in town that sells it first before you buy online and... If they're not, we're happy to have you click through. Leslie Youngblood (46:47) Fantastic. And we will also drop those links in the show notes for everybody listening. Kate, thank you so much for spending time with us to chat some serious lady business today. You are incredible. We love Dip. We love everything that you're doing. It was a total pleasure. Aw, thank you. Cheers. Kate Assaraf (46:55) Thank you. Thank you. The feeling's mutual.