Latest / Twin Mom Life / Why Mainstream Sleep Courses Often Fall Short for Twins and What To Do About It
Transcript
- Jessielee Sittig: Hello and welcome to the Twin Mom Life podcast. I'm your host, Jess. I created this podcast to help build community, connection, and most importantly, friendships among moms of multiples. Being a twin mom can be amazing and magical. That twin bond is unlike anything I've ever witnessed, but it can also be isolating and overwhelming. I'll be chatting with other twin moms, diving deep into the twin experience. Thank you for taking the time out of your busy twin mom life to listen along. I hope this podcast shed some light on a topic that's been on your heart and gave you more confidence as a twin mama. If you know a twin mom, please send this her way. If you like what you heard today, please subscribe to the podcast and leave a review. Check out the show notes to be connected with today's guest and get discount codes for brands I love. See you next Thursday. Until then. hey, welcome to the podcast today. I have a Laura. Hi. How are you doing? Yeah. Absolutely. Okay, so I'm so excited for today's topic because we are going to talk all things twin sleep, which is so huge for all moms, but I feel like especially twin moms. So can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Laura Van Luven: Hi, thanks for having me. I'm great. Thank you so much. Jessielee Sittig: giving advice on what works for us so you don't have to learn the hard way. Juggling two babies at the same time is challenging, but I'm confident we can learn from each other and figure out how to raise these babies together. You are made for this. Laura Van Luven: Yeah, so my name is Laura Van Luvin and I live in the Twin Cities. I have five kids actually. My oldest is a Singleton, she's 12. And then my twins are two fraternal boys, they're 10. And then I have another boy who's and I have my fifth child is a two year old little boy as well. So yeah, ⁓ I'm a nurse. I have been nurse since 2008, mostly working in the emergency department, but I spent several years as a maternal child public health nurse here in the Twin Cities area. And then now ⁓ I parents of twins their twins to sleep all night. Jessielee Sittig: Hallelujah. I feel like that is so huge and we're going to get into all of that. But before we do, what did you do today or what are you planning to do to fill your own? Laura Van Luven: well, yeah, it's been a, it's been a wild morning, but I do plan to, ⁓ hoping the sun is going to be shining again. February in Minnesota is, is kind of dicey, but the last few days I've been taking my four of my little ones a walk, outside and just splashing in the puddles and looking at the ducks. And, I'm hoping to do that again today because it's so nice the last few days here after a very cold January. Jessielee Sittig: Well, that sounds nice to get out and get some vitamin D. That's so great. Well, I feel like talking to twin moms always fills my cup. So that's part of it. And then tonight, I'm going to go to yoga. And I'm so excited to do that. looking forward to my evening yoga class, for sure. Laura Van Luven: Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. Jessielee Sittig: so before we get into twin sleep and tips and stuff on that, can you talk about your twins and how you found out about them and you were living in a different country at the time? ⁓ Laura Van Luven: Yeah, so my husband and I actually moved to East Africa when our oldest daughter was around eight months old. ⁓ we moved to a little country kind of up in the Horn of Africa called Djibouti. It is like tiny little place. It's like the size of Massachusetts. It is the hottest inhabited country in the world. Yeah, so it's kind of in a weird spot. It's situated by Somalia and Ethiopia and Eritrea and then like the Gulf of Aden. So like on the other side is Yemen and it's just sort of this like really safe stable little bastion of freedom in a very like unstable region of the world. And so it was a great place to set up ⁓ an NGO. And so we were with doing a relief NGO there to be able to serve people who were in difficult situations, but we were able to live in a stable place. So my husband and I went there in guess it would have been 2014. And we were raising our daughter there. It was you know, it was a wild adventure. Some days were some days were very just boring. It was hot. Jessielee Sittig: Like that. Laura Van Luven: we decided we wanted to have a second child. We thought two kids, that's kind of like not really a rule, but sort of an unspoken, like if you're an overseas worker, two kids is kind of like the max, logistics and travel and all that. And so we decided to have one more. And for the summer, we flew to Kenya and went for our first OB appointment. ⁓ they, you told us it was twins and just so many questions were brought up for us. We talked to our leadership and they, suggested that we return to the US to give birth to them just of the high risk nature of having twins and the limited, at the time there was limited availability of like a NICU, even in a ⁓ more modern city Nairobi. ⁓ I think that changed now. But at the time that was the recommendation. So we came back to Minneapolis and that's where they were born. Thankfully, my pregnancy was uncomplicated. They were born at 36 weeks. They were big boys. were each for over six pounds. So no NICU time, no special care. It was just a ⁓ yeah, like a boring ⁓ and delivery. ⁓ mean, other than the fact that ⁓ was huge and I could hardly walk. Jessielee Sittig: That's great. That's good. Laura Van Luven: But yeah, was so that was great. And we thought like, okay, we've been through a baby before what's, you know, another one or two, like, we understand sleep, we know what it's like to take care of, you know, this is still fresh in our mind how to change a newborn diaper, like, it's just gonna be two of them, it's gonna be fine. And I just remember like being in the recovery area after my c-section, and they were like, crying. And I was like, ⁓ my gosh, I'm outnumbered, like my husband wasn't there. It was just me. And I was like, what do I do? There's two of them. Like, can't just pick one up. Like, how do I even pick two up? Like, I just remember feeling like in that moment, like, I am really outnumbered now. And I was discharged from the hospital. They were just a little underweight. And so the hospital asked if we wanted them to stay for another night, just to make sure their weight gain was going well. Jessielee Sittig: Hmm. Laura Van Luven: I guess it was their weight loss, ⁓ they had lost 10 % of their body weight. And so they were just a little concerned about that. And I was like, yeah, I'll stay. ⁓ They let me stay even I was like discharged. And I just remember the nurse coming into me in the middle of the night ⁓ to, she ⁓ was bringing me babies, like time to feed them. And I was like, can I please take you home with me? And I was really, really serious. ⁓ I was like, I don't know I'm gonna do this. But so yeah, we obviously I didn't get to take that wonderful nurse home with me. I wish I did. ⁓ we just it was a it was trial by fire. mean, our daughter was like I said, she was too she still wasn't sleeping all night. I really just didn't know that I could like help her with that very much. ⁓ So we were just being woken up a lot. I was having a lot of trouble with breastfeeding them at the same time. So, you know, we were doing like the triple feed, know, where you breastfeed and then you do the syringe or a bottle and then you pump and oh my gosh. my husband and I finally, after I think after like a week or two, realized like, okay, we really have to do something here. And we were pretty broke at the time and Jessielee Sittig: so hard. Laura Van Luven: we did have a significant tax return that year. so we were like, okay, How many hours can we get out of a doula to come and stay overnight and watch them for us? So we were able to kind of calculate out two nights a week, having somebody come and stay with them for a few weeks before we headed back to Djibouti. And so Jessielee Sittig: Mmm. Laura Van Luven: That was a godsend. And then we decided to split up the night. like I would sleep from like 9 p.m. to 3 a.m. in like a little guest room. We were staying with my parents and then we put the twins in our room and then my husband would go to bed at 3 a.m. and then he would get up at 9 and then he would go to work. ⁓ And yeah. Yeah. Jessielee Sittig: That's exactly what we did. Like we took shifts so that at least one parent was getting solid sleep and then we would switch. So yeah, we did the same thing. Survival. Laura Van Luven: Yeah, and it was, it was, it was, it was survival. And we just kind of like, nobody was like worried about like, you know, making sure we're laying a good foundation for sleep. And it was just like, we're just surviving. We're just, you know, improvising constantly. Because daughter was still getting up, like I said, so was like three, you were really managing three kids during those year So, when turned three months, ⁓ our time was ⁓ up it was well, either you back or you have to talk about, you're sad because we were actually gone from work. So my husband was doing some online stuff to support ⁓ website design, that sort of thing. But we were actually for six months. And so we went back the day our twins turned three months, which was actually just like the worst timing ever, because we went back in May, and it was very, very hot there. It was also Ramadan and Djibouti is a majority Muslim country. And so it pretty much shuts down because of the heat and then, you know, everyone is fasting. And Jessielee Sittig: Mm. ⁓ wow. And how hot are we talking? Laura Van Luven: ⁓ gosh, like I'm telling you, I could say temperatures, well over a hundred every day. mean, the whole country shuts down in the middle of the day for at least, you know, two to three hours and then life sort of happens again after 4 PM. and I'm saying like the ants would come out of the, like, we would turn the air conditioning on in a room and the ants would come out of the wall. ⁓ and they would start walking along the wall on their little trail. And then when you turn the air conditioning off, you would just be able to see them shrivel up and die from the heat as the room heated up. It was like, had a, my gosh, this is so gross. We had a cockroach nest in bathroom that we never used. And it must've come up through the drain. Jessielee Sittig: Wow. Laura Van Luven: of the shower because we, again, we never used that bathroom and ⁓ it hatched in there. And there was like this smell. I was like, what is that smell? And we opened up this door that we never used and here they are like coming out and you could just watch them and they would just die of the heat. Like where they had like tried to crawl out of their nest and just died. ⁓ know that's gross. ⁓ it was really hot. And so we actually had to leave for the summer. Jessielee Sittig: ⁓ no. That's wild. Laura Van Luven: And so we went to Kenya for the summer and there was like meetings and some trainings that we were part of and we were like, okay, we can do this. This is good. We had like people helping with our twins. know, Nairobi is like ⁓ lush green, heaven on earth, weather. ⁓ just the people and I'm not saying anything. Djiboutians are wonderful people too. ⁓ And Kenyans are also just so warm and open and so, you know, happy to have you there. And they love, ⁓ children so much. ⁓ it was just a dream to be there. But then we went back to Djibouti and by that point, like we had moved around so much. We'd been on so many flights with little kids, international flights, and I was over, ⁓ Also when we flew back to Djibouti when they were three months old like they lost our bags and you know There's not like a target you can go to So so that was like a huge stress. But anyways, so September came we're back in Djibouti We're getting into like our you know, our school our program is up and running that we were working with and I just Like spiraled and lost my ever-loving mind, you know, we're not sleeping. We are not Jessielee Sittig: ⁓ my gosh. Laura Van Luven: And that was like everything. It was so hot. It was so stressful. Everything was thrown out. had no good routines. And I just spiraled. And our leadership very lovingly told us, it's time to go. And so ⁓ there also like a team or like another group that was working in Nairobi. And they invited us ⁓ to and join that area. was just like I said. a more manageable place to live, more modern. were things not Target, but like Target there, where we could go shopping. Very modern city, wonderful place to live and raise a family. So we were there. Our contract was done when our twins turned two and a half. Our daughter was four and a half. ⁓ we just decided ⁓ not renew. ⁓ So came back and permanently landed in the Twin Cities, where I'm from, ⁓ where met my husband. Jessielee Sittig: Mm-hmm. Laura Van Luven: And then we started our life here in 2018. And I started working, my husband actually decided to stay home full time. We realized one of us really needed to because of daycare costs. ⁓ yeah, ⁓ just, yeah. Jessielee Sittig: Yeah, I feel that. mean, that's I did that. I started staying home when the boys were born because the cost of daycare for three kids, two of them being infants just didn't make sense. Laura Van Luven: Right. It's like, ⁓ my husband's entire salary working for a nonprofit here was going to go to almost covering the cost of daycare. Yeah. And then odds are somebody's going to be sick. ⁓ So I just had more earning power as a registered nurse. ⁓ had always wanted to do public health. I didn't quite know what ⁓ that meant. Jessielee Sittig: ⁓ Thank my, I actually have my master's in public health. I do, yeah, I have my MPH. Laura Van Luven: Yeah, no. ⁓ do you? Okay. ⁓ cool. Yeah, awesome. So it can mean so many different things. I had just always been, had, before we had gone overseas, I had worked as an emergency department nurse and I loved it, you know, but it's high stress, crazy hours, crazy situations, but I actually really, I really liked it. And ⁓ I like, you know, I just don't know if my heart is ready to go back into that kind of like chaotic high stress situation. And I loved, I took one public health course when I was in nursing school and it just always fascinated me like the idea of sort of stopping disease further upstream than like in the emergency room when it's like yeah you're at crisis point and ⁓ so ⁓ ⁓ into it and ⁓ found that at least in the Twin Cities where I was ⁓ we were living there was this amazing program for Jessielee Sittig: Mm-hmm. right. Laura Van Luven: moms with babies who were just different risk factors and you as a nurse came alongside and could partner with them in helping them, you know, with all sorts of issues that they might have, whether it was breastfeeding or preparing for labor, sleeping, bonding with their children, you know, helping them figure out how to get back into school or get back into work, how to help them identify mental health issues, ⁓ figuring out plans. It was such a fun job that I had. Jessielee Sittig: That's so cool. Laura Van Luven: And, you know, I worked there from 2018 through 2021. So I worked during the COVID times and that really changed everything. But I just wanted, my husband did find a job full-time and that he really wanted to do and loved. And so I wanted to be home more with the kids. At that point we had baby number four. And so I realized that actually going back into the emergency department, I could work more part time. I could work around his schedule. And so I went back to that in 2022. again, like I actually, I do like working in the ER, but I really missed working with families. That was just something that I had loved so much. Jessielee Sittig: Hmm. Laura Van Luven: And so I decided to start helping families with sleep because that was ⁓ one the big issues that I helped families with ⁓ as public health nurse. And I realized that at least in my situation and in a lot of their situations, ⁓ once could fix sleep, was like ⁓ mental improved. They were able to cook more healthier foods. They could think about going back to school or think about And I realized that at least in my situation and in a lot of their ⁓ once they could fix sleep, was like ⁓ mental improved. They were able to cook more healthier foods. They could think about going back to school or think about you know, starting a new job, think about starting a counseling program or think about exercising again. And it was just easier for them to enjoy being parents. When are sleep deprived, all those things are just ⁓ so more difficult. you know, starting a new job, think about starting a counseling program or think about exercising again. And it was just easier for them to enjoy being parents. When are sleep deprived, all those things are just ⁓ so more difficult. Jessielee Sittig: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Laura Van Luven: And so that was just something that I felt was really needed. And then of course, ⁓ my experience with twins, And then I had also worked with several twin families in my public health office. I just, have like a special place in my heart for it's like once you're in this club, you know, as you were saying, like I love talking to other twin moms because we just get each other in a way that nobody else really can. ⁓ so I just, found that I really enjoyed working with twin families, the unique challenges that come with twin sleep. Jessielee Sittig: Mm-hmm. Laura Van Luven: when I was in my sleep program, and I think it's a great program that I did, and I think the consultants coming out of that program are fantastic. However, a lot of them are intimidated by working with twins, and there isn't a lot of really great guidance on helping twins sleep all night. And so that's where I really felt like ⁓ was something twin parents do deserve to have. good information but also support from somebody who actually understands them. And so that's kind of where twinsleep.com and the Twinsleep Academy came from. So all of that. ⁓ Jessielee Sittig: Mm-hmm. I love that. And I think that is so key that you are a twin mom. So I don't want to put down any programs or anything, but I took a course with my daughter, who's obviously a singleton. ⁓ And was so helpful for her. It was so great. And then when it was time to kind of help the boys with their sleep, I rewatched the course ⁓ and just like ⁓ this going to work for us. And they had a very small like bonus chapter on twins. that quite honestly was not helpful and I could tell like, oh man, this was not written by a twin mom. So I think that is so huge is understanding sleep in general and then having the extra arm where you're like, I am a twin mom. Like I have walked this road. So yeah, can you tell us more about your program Laura Van Luven: Yeah, so I had the same experience. Actually, I didn't even know there was such a thing as a sleep course when my oldest was born, which is probably why even when she was two years old, she was getting up in the middle of the night. I did a lot of Google searching. ⁓ was 2016 when my twins were born, ⁓ it was all about the mom blogs, and it was just not good information. That was where I learned a lot of sleep. ⁓ Jessielee Sittig: Mm. Laura Van Luven: training, like what that was, I think Babywise was like a really popular program at the time. There was a book that was there was one book on twin sleep that I could find at least and it was just teaching the cry it out method like, like really extreme. it's like you put them a room ⁓ and you the door and walk away and come back at seven ⁓ and ⁓ Jessielee Sittig: Mmm. OMG. Laura Van Luven: I was like, ⁓ that's really extreme. ⁓ And there was nothing kind of like in between. And then I also took, so when my fourth was born, I was having some issues with him. I learned a lot, but I was having some issues with him. And I then learned about like sleep courses and I did like a mini course or like there was like an ebook or something that I could get. And I was like, ⁓ this was really helpful for baby number four. Jessielee Sittig: Yes. Laura Van Luven: And I was thinking to myself like this never would have worked with my twins. And because it was very like hands-on, which again, I love for singletons. But when it's just you or if you are a parent and you have twins and then you have an older child, especially a toddler. And you know, usually one parent is helping that child to vet and one parent is helping the twins to vet and you are just outnumbered. So. I just felt like, yeah, again, like twin parents just need actual solutions that can help their twins sleep. And what are the things that we need to do to have you lifting for us? ⁓ things like routine, things like how we set up the nursery, you know, yes, sleep training, there are a million different sleep training methods. Some work better than others. But there are some that just ⁓ really, really difficult with twins. ⁓ again, I think ⁓ biggest factor in getting your twins to sleep really is the twin parent feeling like ⁓ can do this, like are supported, like they ready for it. Because some twin parents, they just are not, and that's fine. Some of them, you know, they would rather be getting up and checking on their twins and cuddling them for long periods of time in the night or feeding them every time they wake up, even beyond when the child needs that feeding, rather than ⁓ going a type of sleep training. And that's totally fine and fair. And then sometimes ⁓ they have to be in a place where they're ready to do that. you know, most of my families, do not want to do the extreme, like leave their baby in a room. And now if that's what you want to do, like I have no judgment. Like I get it. Like twin parents are overbound, but most people I think that I talked to at least they aren't wanting to do that. But they also are like, I can't do these like super gentle, like hands on methods that are taught. Jessielee Sittig: Sure. Right, that's. Laura Van Luven: either. And so I really try to meet the parents where they are and find some of those kind of intermediate methods that they can use and again using some of those other ⁓ in a day and in the environment to do some of the heavy lifting ⁓ them ⁓ you know if they're one to one or one to two with their twins. ⁓ Jessielee Sittig: Well, I think it's so important that you said that, like that the parents need to like be in a certain head space to want to do that. Like with my daughter, so she is a COVID baby. had her in February of 2020 and that was the most difficult postpartum. It's even more so than the boys because the situation that I was in, it was terrible. We had no family help, not because they didn't want to, but because, so I had Laura Van Luven: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ wow. Yeah. ⁓ my gosh, yeah. Yes. Jessielee Sittig: two miscarriages before my daughter. And we were terrified. Like we finally had a baby Earth side. And I was like, I don't know what this is. Like we are our little three week old baby is so precious. And so we had no family help. My husband had a very intense job that he was considered an essential worker and worked 12 plus hours a day. And he was also like using heavy machinery. Laura Van Luven: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Jessielee Sittig: And because of that, he slept in a different room. He was like, I cannot be sleep deprived, like for safety reasons. So I was alone, like completely alone for months on end. So for me, I was like, so unbelievably ready. ⁓ I was my mental health was struggling. So, ⁓ and I clarify, I actually hired a sleep coach, like a one-on-one sleep coach with my daughter, which was phenomenal. And then down the road. Laura Van Luven: Bye. Jessielee Sittig: purchased a course that I like kind of used. then like I mentioned with the boys, wasn't very helpful. So I think that's huge. Like being in a ⁓ where you're ready. So with my daughter, that point was three months where I was like, I can't do this anymore. I'm gonna snap. I'm going to lose it. Where with the boys, it was a little bit different. And I think twins bring on unique situations that we can totally get into. One of which like my boys share rooms. So handling, and that was very easy for us to do the night feeds and diaper changes to be in the same room. And then the other thing was their weight. They were so small that our pediatrician was encouraging feedings throughout the night. So we really couldn't like quote unquote sleep train them for several months. It was really closer to like the eight or nine month mark where they were finally approved to not do a night feed. Laura Van Luven: Yeah. Yeah. Jessielee Sittig: which was so different than my daughter who was, you know, born at a healthier weight and didn't struggle to gain weight like the boys did. So. Laura Van Luven: Right, Well, yeah, and that's another dynamic, know, that most twins are born at least a few weeks premature. And so sometimes you are dealing with some of those growth issues. And so the standard sleep advice of like, yeah, by six months, drop the feed. Well, that doesn't always apply. And so I do try to be very cognizant of that, that some people aren't, you know, ready to actually drop the feeding. And so that is something that I've been, you know, learning more and working with families on, helping ⁓ them understand how can still do, ⁓ I say sleep but helping their babies learn how to sleep even when they have to feed them in the middle of the night, ⁓ you know, due to, know, whether it's because of, you know, Jessielee Sittig: Mm-hmm. Laura Van Luven: keeping their milk supply or their breastfeeding or again, like the weight issue, especially with some of those preemie babies. Yeah, so that is something that I do. so was working one-to-one with families, like how you your sleep coach ⁓ and ⁓ Jessielee Sittig: Mm-hmm. Laura Van Luven: you know, I just found that a lot of twin families are in a situation where only one parent is working. And so shelling out, you know, four to $600 was sort of just, it was a big ask. I would, and you know, like I was helping people and people were able to do that later on once they were sending their kids to daycare and both families were working. But I just, Like I said, I remember those families that I worked with when I was a public health nurse and they did not have, you know, that kind of money to spend on a sleep coach. And so I just remember, and I know like when I, ⁓ I said, ⁓ my twins were born, you know, we were like to ⁓ penny, figuring out how many nights can we get with a doula. And so I just wanted to offer like a better salute, like a, you know, Jessielee Sittig: Mm-hmm. Laura Van Luven: The sleep courses are great because they are lower priced. I wanted to offer something like that ⁓ twin parents, but I also feel like the courses really lack the support piece that a coach, a one-to-one coach can give you. And I decided in my program, I have built in support. So I do have families that Jessielee Sittig: Hmm. Laura Van Luven: you know, they're part of like our membership, which is included for, you know, the first part of when they enter the course, then they also get to be in the membership where they're getting support from me. ⁓ And then they're support from other twin parents as well. ⁓ And ⁓ yeah. Jessielee Sittig: I love that. So you're like building a twin community. That's great. Laura Van Luven: Yeah, it's called the twin sleep tribe. Yeah. And so we support each other. And it's been really fun to see like other moms reaching out. And other moms saying, I've been there like a few further down the line than you. And so that's, that's been great to see. And so I just, ⁓ it's been a growing ⁓ experience to witness to be part of over the last year. Because, yeah, like we just more than a footnote in a book or a course. I feel like yeah, it's like a bonus chapter on twins. It's like when you have twins, you have like, either whether you've adopted them or you're fostering them or you, you know, birth them yourself or surrogacy or whatever, families from all different situations in my program, you know, you you do not feel like it is Jessielee Sittig: Mm-hmm. Laura Van Luven: A footnote like you, you're like, no, this is my like everyday reality is yeah those room sharing dynamics, which at first, you know, can be fantastic. Because, like you said, you know, the feeding and the diaper changing. But kind of once they get to the point where now you can drop the feedings and the overnight diaper changes. Now you're dealing with like, are they gonna wake each other up and how do we ⁓ Jessielee Sittig: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Laura Van Luven: navigate that, which again, like a lot of sleep consultants and sleep courses just don't address like the reality that parents either really want their twins to share a room or don't have another choice other than to keep their twins in the same room as each other. And sometimes I've worked with quite a few families and I think this is, you know, like Gen Z coming up. the pike, like the economy has been so bad, a lot of them are in situations where their twins share a room with them. You know, they're in a one bedroom apartment, or they're living in the basement while as they're saving up to try to buy a house, you know, things are hard right now when it comes to housing. For you know, people that are in their 20s and early 30s. And, and they're having babies, which is fantastic. And they're having twins, which is even better. But it's, you know, it's Jessielee Sittig: ⁓ wow. Laura Van Luven: It is hard when you're in a small space. So that is something that I've helped the families in my program work through that I just think, you know, a footnote or a bonus chapter in a book or a course is not going to cover. So yeah. Jessielee Sittig: Mm hmm. Absolutely. And I think that's so huge. I think some advice that I've gotten is like, ⁓ just separate them. And I'm like, well, I don't want to. And we do have a guest room that is set up as a guest room. my husband's family lives out of state and they visit quite often and we don't have other space. So I don't and I didn't want one twin to feel like they don't have a bedroom and that their crib is in the guest room. Like Laura Van Luven: Yeah. Mmm. Jessielee Sittig: because then that feels unfair that one twin gets this cute decorated nursery while this other twin feels like an afterthought that has to be separated because they're waking each other up. So we just kind of figured it out and works through that. And our boys will actually sleep through each other's wakeups nine out of 10 times. It's pretty incredible. Laura Van Luven: Yeah. Yeah. Jessielee Sittig: And that took time. feel like they had to learn to do that. And is incredible. Like I think my husband and I, we talk about that often, like, my goodness, you know, he was crying because he pooped or whatever it might be and Wyatt just slept right through it. ⁓ Laura Van Luven: It is amazing. I always liken sleep training or letting your children learn to sleep to any other skill. I have a two year old, almost two year old right now. And so not long ago he was learning how to And my, at the time, four year old ⁓ really, really wanted to help his brother learn how to walk. And so. ⁓ you know, he would like hold his hands and like, come on, you can do this and like really try to like pull him along. And I'm like, you know, Finn, at some point you have to just let go of him. Like he cannot learn to walk if you are always holding him up or like, you know, my twins, they were nine, I think at the time. And so they would just like, oh, well, I'll just carry him, you know? And, and so I'm like, but he, he needs to learn. so he's not going to learn if we always are carrying him or always like trying to hold him up or whatever. And so if you think about like sleep in the same way, like, number one, you have to be ⁓ not ⁓ it comes, walking comes, whether you're or right. ⁓ But ⁓ the child needs to be in the environment. have hopefully been setting the stage by giving them good nutrition. You've been giving them you know, floor time, tummy time, time to learn how to sit up on their own. You're not just gonna like expect a three month old to like get up and walk, you know, so you're meeting your child where they are developmentally. But then also like you do have to kind of give them the time and the space to learn, to fall, to fail, and you don't expect them just to like. Jessielee Sittig: Mm-hmm. Laura Van Luven: sleep through the night just because you tried something you've read on the internet and now like this is a hack and now they should be able to just do this skill. It is gonna take some time, especially depending on their age and whatever situation they're coming from. But it is amazing then, you know, ⁓ if kind of liken it to walking, it's like one day ⁓ I one of my twins, he just like, he just ⁓ would walk. And ⁓ one honestly, he was 18 months and I was like, okay, we're like hitting now we're like, ⁓ I to start the The pediatrician said, if you're not walking by next week, we need to start looking at some more evaluations. And he literally just got up and started walking. And so some kids just do that. And so you just have to think about ⁓ them the right environment, the right structures, and ⁓ the to practice to fail, to fall, and to just keep trying. it's ⁓ just something you can do for them. Jessielee Sittig: I love that analogy. I think that's so great. You cannot force anyone to walk. You can just help guide them. And yeah, so I think that's really great. do you have any practical tips that twin parents can implement? Laura Van Luven: Go. what I see is people looking for a hack. like, ⁓ those they are my twin are sleeping. What's one thing I should do? ⁓ And ⁓ you know, there are couple things that might be kind of like, kind of like a hack, but ⁓ like you could say, Jessielee Sittig: Hmm. Laura Van Luven: you know, white noise, like that's a hack, you know, to make sure your twins have light noise. Yeah, absolutely. But if they've taken many naps during the day or like they're not getting up at a good time consistently every day, it doesn't matter ⁓ what like white or hack or there's this like one trend that's like the butter. Like if you give your kids like a glob of like grass-fed butter before bed, they're going to sleep better. Like first of all, ⁓ you don't do that unless they're of age where they can take in ⁓ butter, but also like, okay, but if room is there's too much light coming or if you're putting, you're trying to put a kid to bed at, you know, 10 PM and they're cortisol levels are just like going crazy now. They're gonna be screaming and out of their mind and it's gonna be hard to get them to settle down and then it's gonna be hard for them to stay asleep especially if they fell asleep in your arms and now you're gonna try to transfer them and expect them to you know stay sleeping in a crib or maybe they've never slept before. So there is no one hack. Jessielee Sittig: Hmm. Laura Van Luven: It is definitely like from the parents and this goes for all things parenting, right? Just like that consistency, holding boundaries, making sure they know that you are there, you love them, ⁓ you are present, that you have not abandoned them and yet that you are expecting them to continue to meet developmental milestones as they grow. And so those are kind of my tips. ⁓ Make sure got a good routine, consistency. ⁓ Jessielee Sittig: Mm-hmm. Laura Van Luven: There are sleep training methods that are better than others when it comes to twins, but honestly, at the end of the day, the training method itself is not nearly as important ⁓ the parent's ability to consistently implement it. So ⁓ are, yes, ⁓ are certain ages where like the gentle methods just Jessielee Sittig: Mm. Mm-hmm. Laura Van Luven: I don't think they do well, however, I've had parents who are adamant they want to use gentle methods and they do it because they are able to be consistent with them. They are able to have the ⁓ discipline in themselves to walk away when it's time and not completely rock the child to sleep. And so ⁓ it can but it really does come down to the parent making a choice that they are going to allow their children to learn, even if it doesn't always feel comfortable to them in terms of like, if there is more crying, you know, some parents want like ⁓ no at all. And they don't understand that some crying can definitely be good, you know, to allow their children to feel the feeling of frustration. ⁓ and to feel the freedom to protest a change and still be safe and loved and have the parent present with them while allowing them to ⁓ learn. hopefully that makes sense. ⁓ Jessielee Sittig: That's great. Yeah, absolutely. And I think you're right. Like there there's no one hack like, do this one magic thing and your kids gonna sleep through the night. Like, there are all these routines, things you can implement, but that I think what you said was huge is consistency is key. And if you try something one night, and then you're like, that didn't work, and then you don't try it again, well, then you're never going to know if that actually worked. Because trying it once isn't enough, you need to show consistency. So I think that's really helpful. Laura Van Luven: Yeah, it's like my four year old last night was, or five year old, he's five, was just so mad. made dinner and like, I put bell peppers in the spaghetti sauce and he was like, how dare you? Like, I love spaghetti and you just like ruined it by putting these vegetables in there. And he's like, I tried them once. I don't like them. And I'm like, in our house. we try things, you know, at least five times before we say we don't like it. And even if we don't like it, we know it's healthy, we know it's a good thing to eat. And so we're still gonna eat it. And so it's like that with parenting, right? You wouldn't just allow your child to say like, well, I tried bell peppers once and now I don't, never like them and I never have to eat them again. You know, you're still gonna, you know, in theory, try to offer them. You might not be able to like force feed your child. Jessielee Sittig: sure. Laura Van Luven: But you're starting to put it on their plate and encourage them at least to try and eat it because you know that it's important for them to enjoy a variety of healthy food in order to ⁓ and just live a fulfilling life, I think. ⁓ Jessielee Sittig: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And one thing I was thinking about when you were talking about your program, are there certain ages that you specialize in, like infants and toddlerhood or? Laura Van Luven: Mm-hmm. my program actually ⁓ starts birth. course, sleep training. Babies that are aren't really ready for actual formal sleep training. And especially twins, it is going to look very different to be doing any kind of a sleep program with them early on. The main task is definitely ⁓ feeding them and getting them to gain weight because if they don't do that, they will not sleep. And so, but there are definitely things that parents can be doing in order to help the sleep process along. And so my program does start at birth and then it ⁓ goes up to 36 months. ⁓ Jessielee Sittig: Mm. Laura Van Luven: So I do have a separate toddler program that I just recently launched year. So was the 18 to 36 month age range. Again, it you can help a child learn to sleep at any ⁓ age. It's gonna look different and our expectations are gonna be different. ⁓ And our are gonna be different with like a newborn versus a three year old because three year old twins Jessielee Sittig: Sure. Laura Van Luven: may or may not be taking naps anymore. But we would definitely expect that they're able to sleep through the night without a feeding unless there's some drastic medical issue going on. ⁓ Jessielee Sittig: Mm-hmm. That's great. Well, that's all so helpful. you I know you said your Instagram, can you say that again and then your website and ⁓ anywhere that can connect with you? ⁓ Laura Van Luven: Yeah, so my website is just twinsleep.com. I do have blog articles there. I have few podcast episodes that I've just dipped my toe in the water on podcasting. And then you can find out more about my program, my email, you can always email me questions, laura @ twinsleep.com. And then I am on Instagram, twin.sleep.health. And if you are interested in learning more about sleep and some sleep solutions I have started like I said a podcast twin sleep talk And that's available on Apple Spotify YouTube. Yeah, ⁓ I am still learning a lot about podcasting so And then I'm on Facebook as well. I do have a free Facebook group ⁓ where I Jessielee Sittig: Yay! Laura Van Luven: answer questions that people have about sleep and twins ⁓ and twin sleep ⁓ ZZZ my user on on Facebook or I think you can just look up twin sleep talk and you'll find my group. Jessielee Sittig: Perfect, and I'll put all of that in the show notes so people can just click and connect with you. So that's all. So exciting. So if you could have a heart-to-heart with a twin mom or give any twin mom a piece of advice, what would that be? Laura Van Luven: Sounds good. you know, I was thinking about this. A piece of advice would just be, it just, it gets better. my twins are 10 right now. When ⁓ noticed one thing when my, when my three oldest kids were really little. So when my twins were born, I had my two year old, I had a lot of people come up to me all the time and say, just enjoy every moment. And I was like, are you kidding me? Like, get out of here. It would just like enrage me to hear people say that. And then there were these other moms that would come up and say, don't worry, it gets better. And I started realizing those were the moms of twins. Those were the moms of triplets. I had a few triplet moms tell me, don't worry, it gets better. And that was always just really encouraging. And it's okay to not feel like you're enjoying every moment. Jessielee Sittig: Mmm. Laura Van Luven: with your twins, especially those first two years, because it is really, really hard. I found it got really fun for me around two and a half. It felt like I got my time back because they started playing with each other. And my oldest daughter and even now my two little ones, they're ⁓ like years on and finally my five year old is starting to accept his little brother as a playmate. And it's, ⁓ felt like a long time coming where as twins, you know, ⁓ get that time back earlier when ⁓ turn about two, two and half and they're happy to play with each other. And it's so sweet to watch them grow together. And it's hard to even imagine that now. can't, you know, I see my twins now, they're 10. Yes, they still fight like cats over, ⁓ know, toys and ⁓ or whatever. But watching them become best friends ⁓ and Jessielee Sittig: Mm. Laura Van Luven: know be able to always have each other. They're in the same class at school together for a variety of reasons but to know that they're there together it just I don't know nothing's better than watching your children enjoy each other's company ⁓ and they don't really do that the first two years but after that it is so fun and it's so fulfilling and so that's what I would tell you is to just ⁓ Jessielee Sittig: Hmm. Laura Van Luven: hang in there, you know, take lots of pictures ⁓ you will, ⁓ know it's hard to believe it, you will look back on that on this time and remember some sweetness of it. But it's okay to feel like I'm just looking forward to the time where you know they're potty trained and they can do their own seat belts and you know all that sort of thing. ⁓ Jessielee Sittig: so true. I love that all of that and I totally agree. So my boys are two and a half. So when you were saying all of that, I'm like, ⁓ my gosh, you are so right. Like something about that timeframe just feels I don't ever want to say that twins are easy, because it's not but it feels less demanding. And the first year I don't remember. I don't remember. I we we did it somehow. Laura Van Luven: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yep. Yeah. Jessielee Sittig: by the grace of God and a lot of family help, you know. And then now, yes, my twins play so well together. Do they fight? Of course they do. But man, when they get into playing, I don't ever remember my daughter doing stuff like that with friends this early. It's like a twin thing. And it's super cool. And yeah, the whole reason I feel like I had the capacity to start a podcast was because of the age that they are. There's no way. Laura Van Luven: Yeah. No. Nice. Jessielee Sittig: I could have had the creative even like mindset to do anything like this until they were over the age of two and a half. Laura Van Luven: Totally. Well, and that's probably, yeah, like, I mean, mine are 10 and I just, when they were turned like eight was like, ⁓ I could probably start doing some things, you know, like that I want to do. Yeah, because I just remember my daughter, she would like come and just hang on me during dinnertime. Like there's nobody to play with. And when I had the twins, was like, have two little brothers. And when they were babies, she would be like, they don't count. And then. ⁓ Jessielee Sittig: ⁓ Yeah. Laura Van Luven: so sweet when they turned about two, she started really playing with them more and like, she would play school with them. And they were like her little students one of them came and he started singing the ABCs to me. And I'm like, ⁓ my gosh, I never taught you the ABCs. How did you learn? ⁓ She's like, I taught it him in school. ⁓ Like, I didn't know you're Yeah. But you know, they just had this whole world, the three of them, they Jessielee Sittig: Thanks, sis. That's so cute. Laura Van Luven: you know, and like you have your oldest that's close in age and it is just so sweet. Like, and then watching them, you know, bring in their younger brother when he was the first younger brother that was born and just kind of bring him into their world. was just so, so special. ⁓ and you know, it helps. I had so much mom guilt those first few years. Like, why can't I just enjoy this? Why did I have to have two at the same time? why can't I be like other moms, you know, out and about doing this and that? And I just like felt really homebound a lot of the time and felt like I wasn't giving them the attention that they needed, like as much attention as I gave my daughter, feeling like, ⁓ you know, somehow I was depriving them of an experience when actually like they, they had each other and I didn't realize what a gift that was to them. that I was giving them without even meaning to, you know, that they were getting the gift of having a built-in, you know, best friend that really deeply understands them and that cares about them in a way that even their other siblings don't quite get, you know, and I just... Jessielee Sittig: Hmm. Mm-hmm. Laura Van Luven: I think that is so, so precious and I just didn't see it until they got to be older. So I wish I wouldn't have had so much guilt. Maybe that's the thing that I would mostly tell twin moms is just don't, don't feel ashamed. Don't you, you're doing your best. You're doing a great job. You're listening to this podcast. So you're obviously, you know, trying to learn more and be a better mom for your kids. and so just drop the shame, drop the guilt and, know that you are. Jessielee Sittig: Yeah. Laura Van Luven: you're doing an amazing job and we're all here cheering for you. ⁓ we know that you are raising amazing humans and we want to be here to support you as, as you do that. And you have a whole tribe of other twin moms that are, that have the same goal for you. So. Jessielee Sittig: ⁓ I love all of that. And thank you for coming on today and for all that you do. we talked about twin sleep is a huge area where there's not a lot of help. So I'm so glad that you have a resource that is specific for twin parents. And we're not just like a bonus chapter or like a footnote. Like you said, I love that. Like we deserve a whole course and I'm so glad that you have that. So go check out her course. well, Laura, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. I really appreciate it. Laura Van Luven: Thank you so much for having me. It was very fun.