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Courting · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:03
  Speaker A: Hello and welcome to Gay Men Going deeper, a podcast by the gay men's Brotherhood where we talk about personal development, mental health and sexuality. We are your hosts. Today we have Matt Lancital. He is a counselor and facilitator specializing in healing and empowerment. Reno Johnston is a spiritual life love and business coach. And I am Michael Diario, a life and wellness coach specializing in sexuality, relationships and self confidence. We each have our own private practice, and in this podcast we're sharing all of our best stuff. And today we are talking about courting. Courting? I didn't say that properly. Courting. We're offering a modern take on an old school tradition. So some of the topics we'll be covering today how does courting differ from dating? What are some advantages of courting over dating or in dating? And how can we apply this idea in the age of dating apps? And maybe what are some practical tips for incorporating courtship into your life? So we'll be covering quite a few topics on this. Uh, we are basically covering this after our episode two weeks ago on, uh, dating or first dates. So if you haven't listened to that, I recommend you go listen to it. It's not a, it's not a part two by any means, but if you listen to that one first, it'll give you a little bit of, um, a head start on this. Okay, so before we jump in, a couple of reminders here, we will be continuing this discussion on the last Thursday of the month in the gay men's Brotherhood sharing circles. We also have our connection circles on the second Thursday of the month, which are smaller, more intimate rooms where you can discuss the topics of the podcast with other members of our community. If you're interested in joining us, go to gayminsbrotherhood.com on our events section to register. And if you don't have Facebook, that's okay. Just get on our email list and we'll email you all the information you need before the event. Reminder that this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. So if you enjoy what we're creating here, you can support us by making a donation to the show using the link in the show notes. You could also subscribe to get early access to episodes on Apple Podcasts. All of your support helps us to continue making content and supporting the community. So we thank you so, so much in advance. And finally, if you're looking to accelerate your personal development journey, please check out our coaching collection. It includes two courses, healing your shame, building better relationships, plus over 45 premium personal development coaching videos on topics such as body positivity, relationships, self confidence, and community. So head over to gay men going deeper.com for more info. And if you're new here, please take the time now to subscribe to the channel on YouTube. We release episodes every Thursday, so by clicking that little Bell icon, you get notified when there is a new episode. If you're listening to us on a podcast platform, please subscribe and leave us a review and five star rating. All of this helps us to get into the ears and eyes of people who need us. All right, let's talk about courting. So this you may have heard as an old school term, it kind of is an old school term. It's really the Google definition is getting to know someone with the intention of marrying them. Um, often these days, courting has been replaced by the word dating. So there are some similarities. Similarities, but there are some differences. So right now for our intro, I kind of want to go through what the differences are just to give you guys an idea for how they can be different and how it's not quite the same as dating, but you can incorporate courting practices in dating. Okay, so there are four different things here. In dating, it's generally more casual. There's not that many rules. And it's not necessarily about having the goal of a long term commitment or marriage by any means. In courting, it's more intentional to finding a long term life partner. You can call it marriage, but it doesn't have to be marriage. There's just more intention of a long term relationship there. In dating, you're really just getting to know each other, enjoying each other's company. It can be one date if you want it to be. It could be five, 6710 dates if you want it to be. There's really not a lot of structure there in courting that people period lasts a bit longer because there's more emphasis on really getting to know each other and your shared beliefs, getting to know each other's values, your life goals, and really determining that long term compatibility. So it doesn't, according process, generally last longer than dating. In dating, it's common to date multiple people at once. If you want, you can juggle, you can date one guy, you can date three guys, four. That's pretty common and normal. Uh, in a courting situation, traditionally, the expectation is that you're exclusive and that both people are focusing on each other. During that phase, you're just focusing on each other and getting to know each other. Other people tend to cloud your judgment. And then finally, uh, in dating, things can move faster and furious, or you can keep it slow and steady. There's really no, no objective. So you can go on a date with somebody simply because, you know, you want to hook up with them at the end, and that's fine. Um, in courting, again, you move more slowly and with more intention towards that ultimate goal of something long term doesn't have to be marriage again. It could just be anything long term. So, yes, this term is pretty old school. And personally, there are some things I really love about this concept of courtship. According, especially as I'm older now and reentered the dating scene in my forties, my values and approach has certainly changed in some ways than how I did it in my twenties and thirties. And one of the things that I thought, and you might be thinking is, this is so unrealistic in the gay community. How can courting possibly work in this digital age of dating apps? Like, you know, courting wasn't, dating apps weren't a thing when courting was commonplace back in the old school days. How does it work now and then? Also for, for the gays and gay culture we live or we date in a culture where instant gratification, sex hookups, casual sex, is very normalized, and that's okay. So where is there space for? Quite there. And I get it. I felt the same way. I still do think the same thing. And as someone who uses dating apps regularly, and as someone who does enjoy instant gratification from time to time, I'm here to tell you that, yes, there is a place for courting and some of it, some of these practices within your approach to dating. And so that's what we're going to cover here today. I want to make it clear that it's not like one or the other you can have. I like to take a little bit of the practices that I've learned about courting and, and put them in practice in my dating life. And so I think what we want to offer here today is just talking about that and what that may look like. So let's jump in. First question we have is, what are some of the advantages of courting? And today we're going to start with Matt.
• 6:45
  Speaker B: Yeah, I feel like I'm, I'm having kind of a dual experience here because I understand that the gay community does tend to fall more towards casual dating and hookup culture and instant gratification. And I feel like I have outgrown that. That was more for me in my twenties. I did a lot of that in my twenties. And even maybe halfway into my thirties, maybe the first few years. So probably the last five years I've really been more drawn towards. Well, dating for me is flow exploration until I find somebody that I want to connect with. Once I find somebody that I want to connect with, I want to pair off with that person. And that's when I would say the courting process would begin. So it's when I've committed to that person to be like, okay, we're going to be exclusive with each other now court me. That's how I would feel because unless you know somebody well enough, I don't think it's smart to court them. Right, because courting means I'm going to focus primarily on you. This is just my perspective of it. I think from my perspective it's more of a monogamous thing to court somebody. It's like you're going to be my primary focus. There's special attention that's being given to this person. There's consistent expressions of interest occurring and that's what I really love about it because I am more of a monogamous person and I like that. For me, that's a big part of what creates attraction is safety, consistency, devotion, loyalty to one person, commitment to one person. These are things that I really value. And for me I think this topic came up because I said that I really want this and I want somebody to court me. And the advantages of that for me is I like when somebody expresses interest in me and they show consistent interest in me, it makes me feel valued, makes me feel secure. Yeah, there's something about knowing that I'm this person's only focus in other structures. And I have been. I was in an open relationship for four years. I've played within different relationship structures and they were fun at the time. I was in my twenties when I was in an open relationship. But there's something for me that I really like. Knowing that I'm that person's primary focus when it comes or only focus. I'll say when it comes to romance, I think that's something that's really special. And I like being pursued. I'm not a big pursuer, I like being pursued. And yeah, something about that. And I think for me when the advantages of courting is, you know, like let's say we, we date for a little bit, we get to know a bit about each other, and then there's this process of like, okay, I'm gonna court you, I'm gonna like bring you into my world and we're going to get married or have kids or whatever it is, um, it's a slow down process. And as a demisexual, a sapiosexual, like when things are slowed down and we find the meaningfulness in things, that's what really draws me in. Um, and then it allows there to be a prioritization of like mental and emotional connection within this courtship. Um, so, yeah, that would be my best answer. Um, yeah. I don't like this notion though, like, because I, where I think you said traditionally it's meant for marriage, um, and this thing. So it sounds like it's very much like a heterosexual concept, um, moving towards marriage. But I don't think it necessarily has to be moving towards marriage or kids or anything. It can just be that were, I'm going to prioritize you and I'm going to. I want to encapsulate you into my world. There's this feeling of like being like court. Courting is like being like hugged. It feels like it would be like a big hug or something. Something, yeah.
• 10:39
  Speaker A: It's almost like, to me it's like a long term commitment. Whatever you want to call it. It could be marriage if you want. But it's like, you're my guy.
• 10:48
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 10:48
  Speaker A: And I want you to be my guy in the long run. And let's, let's take that. Let's take that process to make it happen. It's kind of how I imagine it.
• 10:55
  Speaker B: Yeah. And there's something so nice about that. When somebody's like, you're the person I've been looking for. Like, I want you. Right. And like they're focuses on you. It's like a really, a really beautiful thing. And then I know I've taught this before, the attachment, the five stages of attachment. But there's the, you know, the courting process, I think. Is that right? It's like getting to know someone, knowing that you can trust them, that you can rely on them and that you can commit to them. So I think by the time you get to commitment, the courtship is the knowing, the trusting and the relying. Right. So it's that process of building those things.
• 11:28
  Speaker A: Yeah, totally. Rena, what about you? What are the advantages, in your opinion?
• 11:35
  Speaker C: Hmm. So there are three f's that come up for me. Filter, flavor and flow. So. And this works in either direction. Like, whether I'm courting or being courted, what is revealed is like, well, first of all, courtship becomes a filter, right? Like the benefits of courtship are that it's a filter for whether or not we're a match, whether or not, we're a fit. So I think that is an obvious benefit. Then there's flavor. And what I mean by that is when I'm engaged in courtship, I'm getting a sense of. You're getting a sense of what sort of my flavor is, my unique flavor, my unique style. Um, and, you know, how. How I navigate, how I move when my attention is focused on something. Um, when I am moved to create something or bring something into realization, um, and then the. The last piece is around flow. And that's really just like, for me, that's really just about how a person flows within the act of courtship. Right? Are they like, are they, like, really rigid? Are they really, you know, kind of awkward about it? Or, you know, are they. Is there relaxedness and an authenticity of sort of flow about how they are? How they're moving? Right. And you can, I mean, you can see this in nature. It's like when, um, when mating. When mating happens, right? There's that whole, like, initial courtship process, right? Um, and I'm. I have this vision of, like, two birds, and there's like, the bird that's trying to woo the other one. And it's like if the one who's trying to court the other one is, you know, like, I don't know, dancing with two left feet or something, or like, they're just not. Like, they're just not. It. They're just nothing, you know, performing well, then it's like, see you later, you know? So I think we're similar to animals in that regard in some ways. I would say some others that I listed were like, slowing down to speed up. Right? So when in the courtship process, it's like there's no opportunity to really slow down and, you know, really connect and get really focused and get really intentional. And what that gives way to is depth and breadth, which I think right now, more than ever, we could all probably use more of, you know, especially with the sort of depending the shallowness of our interactions on social media and technology and in our day to day, our attention spans are just shot. And so I think courtship, while old fashioned, so to speak, or old school, invites us to come back to this place of really valuing and honoring depth and breadth of connection. Right? And then I think some other benefits are like decision, commitment and consistency, which I think were mentioned previously. I want to look at the question one more time just to make sure. Yeah, exactly. It's like you're making a decision at this point. You've slowed down. You know, you're deepening there's breadth. And then you're making a decision. You're making a commitment to consistently engage and interact with one particular point of focus that can feel really good for the quarter, and it can feel really, if that's even a word, and that can feel good for that can feel really good for the person, the core d the person on the receiving end. You know, it's like, it's not like focus isn't the worst thing in the world. You know, it's like it can be really, really sexy and attractive to, like, set your sights on something and focus your energy on that and growing it and evolving it and being on the receiving end of that. If you've ever been on the receiving end of that or or even the other end of it can just be a really beautiful, powerful experience. So don't be, I would say, like, don't be afraid to focus. You know, don't be afraid to focus. Don't be afraid to slow down. And then I think that, I guess one of the last things I'll say is getting a sense of what you prioritize in your life. So throughout the courtship process, one of the valuable things that's revealed is, like, what you prioritize, you know, what what the courter and the courtee prioritize in their lives. And I think it's really important to have time and space and to take time and space to really get clear about that. So if I'm being courted, you know, I'm also, as I said in our last episode, you're not just, you're not just being interviewed. You're also interviewing like, it's a level playing field. Much as I'm looking for a fit. No, much as you're looking for a fit, so am I. You know, and I think embodying that energy levels the playing field. And so, you know, I'm getting a sense of what you prioritize in your life. You're getting a sense of what I prioritize in my life, you know? And so it really creates space for us to be very clear about alignment, you know, and and whether it's there or not, because the reality is your life is precious, and who you choose to spend your time with is precious. And where you choose to invest your energy is precious. And so courtship, I think, can be advantageous in discerning, you know, whether it's a fit or not. So. Yeah, but it requires patience because we're just like, click, click, you know, scroll, swipe. Did it do? It's like, take a breath. Slow down.
• 18:11
  Speaker A: I love that, Reno. That is the best sales job I've heard on courtship, like, ever. Like, you nailed. You nailed it. That's exactly it. Yeah. I love it. I love everything you said there. The part about, you know, the focus on the. What did you say? The depth and the breadth of the connection. That's it for me, like that. That really is the core for me, the core advantage. And, yeah, at the very end there, you had talked about, you know, swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe. How quickly? How quickly. And I'm guilty of this, and I've seen other people do it, literally. It's like, it's so fast. And for me, the biggest advantage that I find, and you guys know that I talk fast, I think fast, I act fast. I'm just a fast guy in general. But what this has done for me is it has exactly what you said. It has kind of helped me slow the f down, which just feels nice. And it's just this exhale when it comes to dating and meeting people and learning about people. So that slowness for me, I think. I mean, I certainly know that it feels good for me. And when I see others in how they approach dating, I think that collectively, we could all slow down just a little bit and be a little bit more intentional in that slowness. Everything Reno said, right. In that slowness, you have so much more opportunity to go deeper, to be intentional, to pause. Like, there's no rush here. Um, slowing it down really does help, especially in our culture, where we have become so fast in everything. And everything's very disposable as well when it comes to dating, at least where I live here, like, if one guy doesn't work, there's always another one. And that that culture of, oh, there's something better, there's something more, I think doesn't serve the courting process. And actually, maybe it does now that I'm saying it, because maybe as you slow down and really take that time to get to know somebody, then you might not be as likely to swipe them away at the first sign of, oh, they have. They have this one little flaw, which I think a lot of people do out there.
• 20:09
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 20:10
  Speaker A: Yeah. So that. That's been the big advantage for me. Go ahead, Reno.
• 20:14
  Speaker C: Something that I've noticed is we like, we have. We have so many. So many. I worked with this. I worked with a client. At one point, I was working closely with a client doing sober companion work. And I remember one time he said, he said to me, I feel like I don't have any freedom. And I said, no, no, no, my friend, your problem is that you have too much freedom. That's. That's your problem. And I think that what I see currently in this digital era is that, like, we have. There are too many options. We are overloaded, overwhelmed with options. Like, literally, you pick up this phone and there's like, these little squares and there's just heads and profiles and all of them, and you're just, you know, it's like, I mean, I think it's fair to say that that has an impact on us. And so, you know, now more than ever, discernment and really, like, slowing down and maybe even taking a break from some of that stuff just to, like, connect to the real world and really spend a bit of time. Because one thing I'll say is, the moment I deleted the apps, and I'm not saying delete the apps. That's not what I'm saying. But the moment I deleted the apps and I just started engaging in real time out in the world, I mean, I met so many people. The connections were more enriching in my experience. And it, like, I think it made me appreciate the value of, like, of relating, of, like, being here, meeting a person, really like, meeting a person and going through the experiential, embodied process of, like, being in the world and being vulnerable and walking over to someone and saying hello and everything that comes with that. I think we're so. We're so out of practice in that regard. You know, I sometimes I'm nostalgic for the days when we didn't have this and you had to go and say hey to the person at the bar, you were going home alone that night, you know, where you were, just not with anyone, right. So instead of waiting till the end of the night and then going, okay, you know, like, hey, I saw you over there. Come back to my place. It's like, if you saw me over there, why didn't you just come say, what up? You know?
• 22:48
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I think we're officially those. Those old guys now who I'm like, oh, wow, we are.
• 22:56
  Speaker B: We are.
• 22:59
  Speaker A: I totally get it. I completely agree with you. And I think that. I think because we overlap and we know what life was like before that digital age, and therefore, we have had no choice but to learn the skills to do that. It is an advantage for us. Whereas when I talk to younger guys who maybe didn't ever have that experience, they are literally terrified of talking to somebody in person. They're more likely to want to share and have intimacy, air quotes, talking over Insta, then engaging in a face to face conversation, having the same conversation in person.
• 23:33
  Speaker B: Yeah, I think that might be why I like courtship, is because you said something about options. Too many options. I don't want to just be an option for somebody. I'm at an age in my life now where I'm like, I want to be chosen. I don't want to just be like, oh, you know, a square on a grid that it's like, oh, this can be you for this night and this. Right? Like, and if that's what floats your book, like, there's no judgment there. It's just for me. It's not for me. Like, I want to be chosen. And I think technology has really made it this thing where I think a lot of people don't want to commit because something better might come along. Right. If you're always constantly looking at profile grids with, like, 20 guys, 30 guys, 100 guys on them, there's this notion that people are disposable and we can find this. Right? I don't know. There's something about that. It just rubs me the wrong way. And the part of me that really wants to. The hopeful romantic in me that wants to be chosen, I want to feel special. I don't want just be a face on a grid. You know what I mean? So I'm the same as you, Reno. I deleted the apps. I haven't had grinder scruff for almost ten years now. But even Tinder, just swapping out platonic for a romantic, flip for platonic. I'm no longer looking at it through that lens. So it's helping me see that I want that as well. You know? Like, I don't know. It's interesting.
• 24:51
  Speaker C: Yeah, well, and, like, tune into. I mean, pay attention to your body. Like, I just thought of. We lived in the age of blockbuster video. I don't know if you all remember Blockbuster, right? You know, and I'm just. I'm thinking about, like, we like to pay attention to your body and notice how you feel somatically when you're on Grindr or these apps and you're scrolling. Like, really slow down and tune in and notice how you feel. Because, you know, like, there's this sort of anxiety and I. Overwhelmed. That comes from too many options, I think. Like, now we have Netflix. You know how many times I've been on Netflix? Or, like, someone's probably been on Netflix and been like, there's nothing to watch. I'm like, what do you mean there's nothing to watch? Are you kidding? There's options. So many options. It's the same thing with Grindr and dating. It's like, oh, there's nobody out there. There's everybody out there. What do you mean? You know, but I think. I think if someone. If we didn't have all that and someone said, you can watch eat, pray, love, or you can watch fucking Terminator. Pick one. You're like, oh, okay, cool. I'm vibing with Terminator tonight. It's like, okay, great. We're watching Terminator. And you would watch it, and you just enjoy it, and it'd be awesome. But if someone just put out this whole, you know, it's like, oh, okay, here's, like, a dozen movies. You're like, oh, my God, which one? Which one? Right? I feel the anxiousness in my body just thinking about that.
• 26:18
  Speaker B: You know, they give us such limited, limited opportunity, too, on, like, scruff, grinder, these things to showcase ourselves so people can actually see us as more than human. Right? Like, I know there's spot that you can put more, but a lot of it, it's like, stats or into this, or bear, otter, this. It's like we're all being pigeonholed into these. These little categories. It's like we're cattle at an auction or something like that, you know? Like, it's like, I don't know. There's just something about that, and it makes it easy. It's just we're starting to view each other through this lens of, like, this limited description. Whereas I find when you're meeting somebody in person, like, you're getting the energetic imprint you're getting, like, you know, to see how they move and how they interact with people, you get there's more there. And I find, like, I don't know. I'm feeling really down on, like, just all the technology lately. Like, I want more. I want more in person opportunities to connect.
• 27:09
  Speaker A: So, you know what else? I have something else to add to that is how we treat each other in person versus online. So in those spaces, I think when we're meeting up in person, like, we don't. We would never just, like, if someone's talking to you in the middle of a conversation, you would never just ghost them and, like, walk away mid conversation. We would never say half the stuff we say to each other online. So I think there's an element along with courtship and maybe this is old school. Something that we've forgotten about is just, like, human decency and how to interact and how to be respectful of others that has gone missing as well. It's also kind of been taken over by this very disposable. Oh, I can, I can. Because you're just a screen. I can just say whatever I want and treat you however I'm going to treat you.
• 27:51
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, I agree.
• 27:53
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 27:55
  Speaker A: Question for you guys, quickly. Do you, when you're dating, do you date one person at a time or are you a fan of juggling multiple.
• 28:07
  Speaker B: So I have a hard time with this. Okay. And you might laugh because I do like counseling for a living and I have to remember small details about people. But keep in mind, I take notes while I'm working, so it makes it easier when I. If I'm dating multiple people, I find I mix up facts. I can't remember who said this or who said that. Like, it's just, you know, and I find it challenging. But yes, I try and practice early stages of dating, what I call, like, flow exploration. Like, you're moving between people. You're really, you know, tasting like, what, what. What do I. What am I wanting? And especially, like, after this phase of not dating for a while, I might be, like, wanting. I might be confused about what I want. So I might need to flow explore for a bit to find out what it is that I'm wanting. Um, but when it comes to, like, taking it to that next level, like, I find it hard. Like, I. I find it hard to date more than one person. Yeah. Yeah.
• 28:57
  Speaker C: For me, I've done it. It's a bit tricky. Like, I do remember there was a period a while, like a while back, I was dating three guys and I had sort of met them all, like, sequentially within, I don't know, within, like weeks of each other or something like that. And I very quickly became clear who was and wasn't a fit. So it kind of started out like there were three guys there, then there was two, and then there was one. And that probably happened within. Within a month. I think I had kind of narrowed it down and was like, okay, I'm focusing on you. This is where I'm available here, and I'm letting these go because they're not. They don't feel like a match necessarily. So that's how that worked. But I don't. Yeah, I wouldn't say I try to drag out dating multiple guys at once because for me, it's. It's just like, it's less confusing for my mind and more confusing just for, like, my body. You know, my body's just like, I just want to kind of let. Let that go and just be available for one person, you know? That's just me, though.
• 30:24
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 30:24
  Speaker C: Yeah. What about you? Yeah, well, I asked.
• 30:27
  Speaker A: I asked because I haven't quite figured that out yet. It's one of the questions that I'm still discovering for myself in this space. Historically, I liked juggling, and I had good reason for it, and that was time. And I had more time then to dedicate to just going on dates and whatnot. But also, I liked having the comparison of, like, okay, well, I like this from this guy and this from this guy. And naturally, exactly as you said, reno, one would drop away, and then the other one would drop away, and then the one I was left with, I felt good about, because I kind of was going through that. Okay. I've kind of been in the pool, and I know that you're a good match for me. So that has benefited me in the past. I'm not sure it still does. And that's the part I'm still learning. And I haven't gone on enough dates, really, to be juggling right now anyway. I just kind of go on some dates and see is where I'm at right now. So right now, I guess I am doing what I want at a time, but it's not an area of my life I'm dedicating so, so much time to.
• 31:22
  Speaker B: Anyway, yeah, you made a good point about time. Like, honestly, that now that I think about it, like, I don't have energy or time for that. Like, I've got so much going on in my life. So to date, more than one person would just be like, yeah, I don't. I can't. I can't. And for me, I like to dedicate. If I'm going to dedicate to somebody, it's like I want them to have me, like, my full me, not like half of me or divided attention, you know? So, yeah, I'd be curious to see what you discover, Michael. It'll be nice to watch you evolve and see how you grow through this.
• 31:52
  Speaker A: I'll keep you all informed, and we'll be doing more episodes on dating in the. In the future so the audience can follow us on the journey.
• 31:58
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 31:59
  Speaker A: All right, let's talk about how we can incorporate some of these courting practices in dating in the. For the modern world, including apps. So, you know, instead of just deleting your apps, which I'm fine with, by the way, but for people out there, I hear this a lot from people who live in rural areas, who don't have any other way to really engage with gay men, the apps are the way. And so for people like them who really want to stay on the apps or have good reason to, what might be some ways to incorporate courting practices in that kind of environment and or just in general, what are some of your favorite courting practices?
• 32:38
  Speaker B: So I think consent is probably the step one. Courting without consent is likely stalking. So make sure the person you're courting is like two thumbs up. They're ready to be courted.
• 32:52
  Speaker A: They know they're doing it.
• 32:53
  Speaker B: Yeah, they know they're doing it. Yeah. There's this thing around, like, slowing down. It's just, I think it came up in the last episode we did around first dates and then this one. It's like, slowing down and really getting clear about what it is that you're wanting. You know, taking an interest in what the other person's wanting, making sure that there's this, like, again, consent, and there's this alignment in, like, yes, I want to be courted. Um, I'm wanting to court you if you're somebody that wants to be courted, communicating that, like, you know, if I meet a guy, like, I'll probably say, yeah, I like being courted. I like this, this energy around leading and following. So it's very, very rare in my life that I follow. I'm always leading. So I'm kind of like, I'd like to be in the bedroom, for example. It's kind of nice to be a little bit more submissive and not have to be in the dominant role of leadership. And so I like that. So for me, it would be like communicating that, like, I want somebody that is more in that masculine doing energy of, like, being a leader or being more present and these sorts of qualities. So it's dancing. It's dancing with that. And I also, I want to point this out, too. So if courting, for me, is related to pursuing, I think that there's going to be this aspect of pursuing in the relationship as well. So let's say somebody courts me, early stages, they get me into the relationship, and I'm like, yes, let's do this. And then maybe throughout the relationship, that shifts. So I could become a courter in the relationship as it's going on, as the relationship evolves, maybe there becomes a bit of distance in the relationship as you're moving through some challenges, and then it's like, okay, now I'm going to you and bring you back into the relationship in this safe, loving way. So I think always kind of looking at it as, like, leading and following. And I don't think in a relationship there's always going to be an exact balance of two people leading the way. I think there's always going to be leading, following, leading, following in different aspects. So that's important. I would say it requires a lot of curiosity to court, asking a lot of questions, taking an interest in somebody, making them feel special. Yeah. And then I put down here talking about and planning a future with the person. So somebody that's courting me, they're courting me into something. Right? Into something that they have a vision for the future. So communicating your vision for what it is you're courting them into, like, oh, I want to get married, or I want to have kids, or, let's get a dog together and live on an acreage and, you know, grow our own food and these sorts of things. Like, I want to be courted into a vision, I think, for me. And I also want to be part of the co creation of that vision, too. But it's like, I want somebody to say, like, yes, let's do this together. Let's now co create it together. Right? Yeah. Yeah. I think that's everything that I wanted to share.
• 35:47
  Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. And this is just a guess, but I'm going to assume here and make a little generalization, so I'm probably going to get in trouble. But I would guess that the guys who would be more willing and capable of doing that, Matt, and I'm noticing this myself, too, are older because they know what they want and they're not afraid to communicate it, and they have the vision and they know themselves. That's just a hunch.
• 36:14
  Speaker B: Yeah. Usually, I'm not usually attracted to younger men. I'm usually attracted to same age or older. Usually. Yeah. Yeah.
• 36:22
  Speaker C: See, I'm attracted to younger Mendez when I am. And this is why I said, like, I'm a verse. Like, I'm. I'm quite versatile. Erring on the side of, like, probably more. More feminine. It'd be like 60 40 or even, like, maybe 80 20. Like, you know, I'm more feminine than masculine, so to speak. And so, you know, that applies in the bedroom as well. But what's interesting is, when it comes to someone who's younger than me, I. And, well, this isn't always the case, but I think it's more the case when they're younger is, like, this sort of directional, like, courting, pursuing energy kind of comes in, and I'm more like, I'm more like a. Like a, like a panther, you know? Like, I'm, like, locked in and I'm pursuing them. So it does happen. But certainly my preference is to be on the receiving end of courtship. And I think that might be part of the reason why I've often fancied someone who's a bit older than me. But I like balance, you know, it's important to me that, like, that they also feel that there's a reciprocity in whatever way that looks like. But I don't want them to just feel like, you know, they're, they're doing everything and I'm doing nothing, you know, so to speak. Like, I'm not into that. But what I was gonna say with respect to the question, I think the first thing that comes up, because I had a little bit of trouble with this question and courtship as a theme, surprisingly, because I said a lot, it's, like, interesting. I was like, I don't know what I'm gonna say, but I court yourself, you know, like, that was like, again, slow down and take a moment to court yourself. Like. And I guess what I mean by that is, you know, if courtship were a practice of setting your sights on someone you might perceive to be a value or worth investing in, and then sort of filtering, you know, filtering them, then why not take that same energy first and turn it inward, you know, and. And become someone of value and start to discover yourself and explore yourself, you know, through that same filter? Because I think that what it does is it gives you a sense of what's important to you and what to prioritize and what's not and what to not prioritize. Whether you're being courted or your courting, there's value in starting with courting yourself, I think. Yeah. So that's. That's what I would say. Like, start there and then. Is there anything else? I think, I mean, honestly, the only other thing I would say at this point is, like, just loosen up a little bit. Like, just loosen up a little bit. Like, it's. Yeah, it's like, it's like serious business in some ways. You're. You're exploring investing in a person for an extended period of time. You're exploring a life partner. It's like, one of the most important decisions you can make and also, like, you know, lighten up a bit. Like, it's, you know, that, too. Like, there's something sexy about someone who's, yes, like, focused, but also playful. Like, if we're in the bedroom and you're topping and, you know, I'm bottoming. It's like, yeah, I want you to be, like, focused and in the game. Right. Like, that's why. But also, like, loosen up. Like, laugh a little, have a bit of fun. If you fuck up, like, roll with it, have a good time, you know? So I think that's important. Yeah, yeah.
• 40:44
  Speaker A: Love it. Matt, did you have something you wanted to ask?
• 40:48
  Speaker B: Well, I just wanted to ask you, are you. This is for Michael. Are you more. So if you had to choose between being the quarter or the core t, what would you choose?
• 40:58
  Speaker A: Yeah, these days, well, both. But I'm more comfortable these days being the quarter. I think because of what Reno just said about courting myself, having. I didn't know I was doing that, but I was just getting to know myself and all that. I think I'm a lot more comfortable. Like I said in that previous episode, the story about the guy who was late for our date, like, here's what's happening. Like, this is like the dating, if you want to call dating a game. Like, I'm making my rules now, and these are the rules, and that's that. So I'm more comfortable and I'm more confident, I think, being the quarter, also, I tend to go for younger guys. I skew younger. So I think, I don't know. I enjoy that role more now than I used to, but I. I like both. If someone wanted to court me, if you're listening, honey, I'm all for it. You know where to find me.
• 41:46
  Speaker B: How old was the guy that you went on a date with just recently?
• 41:49
  Speaker A: 33.
• 41:50
  Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. So a little bit younger.
• 41:52
  Speaker A: Yeah. Like seven years younger. Yeah.
• 41:54
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 41:54
  Speaker C: Well, and you just. What I'll say is you upped your value. Like, I noticed someone who's insecurely dating, they're like, oh, my God, I could never say that. I could never do that. But what you've just done by expressing your boundaries and being clear is you just upped your value. You know? That's how I see it.
• 42:13
  Speaker A: I love that.
• 42:14
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 42:14
  Speaker A: Yeah. Actually, this is a great segue. One of how we started, how we ended up on this date. We had been flirting on Instagram for a while and sending each other some sexy photos here and there. And I thought, okay, well, I want to meet this guy in person. And so we had talked about meeting up some time, and he. We were going to do it. And I was like, you know what? And I said to him, I sent him a text saying, listen, I definitely want to do all the things we said we were going to do to each other in DM's. But I actually really want to get to know you. Similar to what I, that story I told you about the guy in PV, same thing. It's like, yes, I'm attracted to you. I definitely want to get in your pants, for sure. But what I want to do first is actually go on a date with you. And I said, I don't want to have sex when we meet. I want to just go somewhere and get to know you. Quiet place and talk. Like, you seem interesting to me. I just want to learn more about who you are. And so that's, he loved that answer. He's like, oh, my God, that's great. Same thing the other guy said in PV. Like, that's a great offer. And so, yeah, that's what we did. And we went on the date and we didn't, we didn't have sex and it was somewhere, we went on to a nice hotel and, sorry, hotel bar, not a hotel room, let me be clear. And so, yeah, that's what happened. So one of the, one of the things I would say, a practical tip for anyone who wants to slow down the process. If you're anything like me, I want to have sex real quick. So what ive told myself is if theres someone that ive met that I am genuinely interested in, I will just not do that on the first day, even if I want to. Ill just say, you know what, im just like, lets just hold off. You know, weve got time. And whats great and what ive learned is that attraction actually builds.
• 43:53
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 43:54
  Speaker A: On one date theres more attraction. We go on a second date theres more attraction. And its a simmering, like savory thing that just, yes. It's like building up within me and it just makes it so much better if, if that comes to a very sexy climax down the road.
• 44:08
  Speaker B: Yeah. The best sex I've ever had in my life was when there was sexual tension that was built.
• 44:12
  Speaker A: Yes, that tension. Exactly. Yeah.
• 44:15
  Speaker B: So I'll reflect the model to you. So it sounds like you want the know before you have the touch. So you want to get to know somebody in this, in this story that you're telling. Right. So it makes it more meaningful for you when you're dating somebody to have the know and then have the touch.
• 44:31
  Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Now keep in mind that's not always the case. There are times where I'm totally okay with having a hookup, but in that case, I wouldn't want to necessarily continue getting to know the guy so I could have the touch without the know. But if it's someone that, for whatever reason, I just am drawn to, then I'll stop and say, no. No, I'd rather get to know you first, because it just makes it so much better.
• 44:49
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 44:50
  Speaker C: Wait, can I ask both of you a question?
• 44:52
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 44:52
  Speaker C: Do you want to get married one day?
• 44:55
  Speaker A: I'm open to it.
• 44:56
  Speaker B: Hell, yes.
• 44:57
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 44:57
  Speaker C: Oh, yeah. Okay.
• 44:59
  Speaker B: I'm like that little girl that's been dreaming about it.
• 45:02
  Speaker A: Like, seriously, I would say it's not about, like, a wedding for me. It's more about, like, I want the long. I want. I want the man who's gonna grow old with me by my side. I want that. Whether it's marriage or not, it doesn't matter. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 45:15
  Speaker B: I want the wedding.
• 45:16
  Speaker A: You want the wedding? Yeah. I don't need the wedding.
• 45:18
  Speaker B: Well, I want the wedding, but I want that. Like, that so you can have the growing old together without the marriage. Like, I don't need the church or the state to say, like, you can grow old together now, but I want that one special day that it's, like, you can remember and you can, you know, like, I don't know. And it won't be, like, traditionally, like, how, you know, you see heterosexual people's weddings. It won't be like that. It'll be my very own spin on it, like, my own traditions, you know, that sort of thing. But, yeah.
• 45:44
  Speaker C: Do you guys know Shawn T. Insanity fitness. Okay, so Shawn T. He's like, him and Scott are a couple, and they're married, and they have two kids together, and they're so friggin cute, and, like, they're. That's goals for me. They, like, go on vacation together. They take these, like, sexy selfies, and they're like speedos when they're on vacation, they're having the most fun. And then also, they're just these stellar parents and this, like, stellar couple. And I see them, and I'm like, oh, my God, that. Like, I want that. I love that. Yeah.
• 46:17
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 46:18
  Speaker B: Do you want to get married? You didn't answer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we all want to get married. What about kids?
• 46:23
  Speaker C: Maybe with the right guy. If we both want it, yes. I'm not attached to it, though. I'm also not attached to getting married. But I do want, like, something like. Like, you know, a celebration of our love.
• 46:35
  Speaker A: Yeah, I'm open. I'm open to that. In fact, there's a guy that I. That I like who has. Who already has kids. And I'm like, can I be a step dad? I'm like, oh, I'd love to be a stepdaddy, Michael. That'd be fun. I have a stepdad myself, and I'm like, so I get that. And I think it's very, it's a beautiful thing. And, like, even without having my own kids, I think I'd make a great stepdad. So if you're out there.
• 46:56
  Speaker B: Yeah, you both would make great fathers, I think.
• 46:59
  Speaker A: Thank you.
• 46:59
  Speaker C: So do.
• 47:00
  Speaker B: Yeah. Thanks. All right, guys, last question I want to ask is do on a first date. I wanted to ask this last episode and when we did first dates, but kiss on a first date, yes or no?
• 47:12
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 47:13
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 47:14
  Speaker A: For sure.
• 47:16
  Speaker C: Yeah. But, like, it has to be organic and it has to be like, yeah, don't, like, don't force it. I'm happy with a kiss on the cheek. I'm, I'm happy with a hug if you shake my hand where I'm pro, I, even if there was chemistry, I might not see you again unless you're like, sorry, that was really awkward. I didn't mean to shake your hand. Don't shake my hand. Hug me.
• 47:37
  Speaker B: Oh, for sure.
• 47:38
  Speaker C: Yeah. What about you?
• 47:43
  Speaker B: Um, typically, no, yeah, it's, I would reserve touch for later on some date, two, three, that sort of thing. But, yeah, first dates, like, I wouldn't want to be swapping hug, though.
• 47:54
  Speaker C: Hug, handshake.
• 47:55
  Speaker B: Yeah, hug. Oh, for sure. And even a kiss on the cheek or something. But just like tongue and saliva and stuff, like when I don't really know them that well, it just feels like a little bit much.
• 48:03
  Speaker A: But, yeah, I love kissing so much and I can learn so much from a kiss and it's, yeah. So I'm totally for it. I wouldn't necessarily make, like, I don't have to have it happen. If I waited, then I would just, again, it would build up that climax for wanting it the next time. But I'm okay with it for sure if he leans in for a kiss or if that happens, that's totally fine with me.
• 48:25
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Kiss is everything. It's such an, it's such an arousal and attraction thing. Yeah, yeah. It's, it can be a deal breaker for sure if it's not a. The right rhythm and all that.
• 48:38
  Speaker A: I was at the Black Eagle last weekend. This guy does not listen to the podcast. We can see the story. Not going to say his name, though. And I was doing a little dance floor makeup, which I love, and we had such great kiss chemistry. He was obviously a cute guy. And we had such great kiss chemistry. He said to me, he's like, I haven't had a kiss like that in years. We had just got there. I was like, midnight. He's like, what do you say we just, like, call it a night and go back to my place? And I'm like, fuck, yes. Absolutely. Let's totally do that. And we did. And that night, we didn't even have sex, but we did lots of other things. But it was so nice to just make out with somebody and, like, have that one on one. And yes, we met at a bar and whatnot. But I thought, what am I going to do? Stay here and just make out with, like four more, five more, six more people? Like, what's the point? I've already found one that I like. And he's cute and he's really nice. And we have that great kiss chemistry. So we just explore that kiss chemistry all night long. That was great.
• 49:32
  Speaker B: Yeah. Sounds fun.
• 49:35
  Speaker A: All right. On that note, bother hearing that. Anything else to add, boys?
• 49:42
  Speaker B: No, I feel complete.
• 49:44
  Speaker A: All right. Okay. For our audience, thank you for joining us on this episode about courtship. We hope we have given you a little bit of incentive and ideas for your dating strategies and your dating approach. I want to thank you for joining us. For Matt and Reno, thank you for your insights and wisdom and stories. As always, you guys make me laugh. For those of you who are listening and want to continue this conversation and have the exact conversation we just had in this similar format, join us in our connection circles on the second Thursday of the month. That's where we put you guys in little pods of three just like this. We give you some questions and then you get to have the same kinds of discussions with other guys in the community. Go to Gaiman's brotherhood.com and then to our events page to get the information there. If you're listening to us on a podcast provider, please give us a five star rating and a review. Helps us get into the eyes and ears of people who need us. And if you're watching on YouTube, go ahead and leave some comments in the chat there or in the comments box. Let us know what you think about courting and dating. All right, guys, thank you so much and see you next week. Bye.