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Lone Wolf Energy · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:09
  Speaker A: Welcome to Gaming Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health, and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. Today, I'm your host, Michael Diorio, and joining me is the lovely Matt Lansdel. Today we are talking about lone wolf energy. You might call it independence or self reliance or self sufficiency. Either way, it sounds empowering, yes. But today, as we do on this podcast, we are going deeper to see what's beneath the surface. And it's a personal one today, guys. Our regular listeners know that both Matt and I relate deeply to this lone wolf energy. And so we'll be opening our hearts and minds to you all today. And we're going to be talking about how our lone wolf energy serves us, what makes us want to cut people off, and how we try to honor our need for solitude without shutting people out. What we want you all to get out of this episode is understanding the difference between protecting your peace and pushing people away. And this one's really for anyone who's ever uttered the words, I'm fine on my own and meant it, but not really. Okay, so if you yourself don't actually resonate with the lone wolf energy, you probably know someone who does, and he is probably a man. So I invite you to stick around for this episode. Even if you yourself are not a lone wolf, it will certainly help you understand that person or those people in your life that are. If you're new here, please subscribe to the channel on YouTube. And if you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, please subscribe and leave us a review which helps us get into the ears of the people who need us. By the way, guys, this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. So if you enjoy what we're creating here, you can support us by making a donation to the show using the link in the show notes. Or if you're watching on YouTube, just go ahead and tap that thanks button to show us some love. All right, let's get into this. So, in case you're still not sure about what lone wolf energy is, I'll tell you all what it sounds like in my mind. These are actual thoughts from Michael's brain. But I love to share with you, so it sounds a bit like this to me. I don't need to rely on anyone. I know how to take care of myself. Other people just end up letting me down. I always give more than I get. I'd rather be alone than deal with this bullshit. That one was Very lie for me this week. And another one comment for me is, no one can match my high standards. Now, on the surface, this might sound empowering. Like, you have strong boundaries and a high degree of expectation, which is not necessarily a bad thing. And for many of us, myself included, we wear our lone wolf energy as a badge of honor, especially if we've been hurt before and we've come back from that hurt stronger and better than ever. It's a beautiful thing. And so we wear that with pride. But if we dig deeper, there are often hidden feelings which I have discovered, such as disappointment, fear, loneliness, and even shame. So I want to get real with you all. At the time that we were recording this, this is something that is very, very alive within me now, this week, in the last few weeks. And in fact, my weekly newsletter today was called that. The subject was, are the strongest men in the world the loneliest? And even though that newsletter just got released a few hours ago, I got a lot of replies from people resonating with it. So it's very personal for me today. Matt as well. And I. Honestly, guys, I don't even know if I fully fleshed out my thoughts and feelings on this yet, but I think this episode might help. So without further ado, let's just jump into it. First question is, how does your lone wolf energy serve you?
• 3:47
  Speaker B: Hmm, so many ways. I think it's important to. For me to first talk about, like, the origin, like, where lone wolf originated, I think is very important because it is very adaptive for me. Growing up in a home where my parents split, my dad ended up leaving the household. During that time, both my parents were dealing with their own stuff, and I kind of was essentially, like, I would say, emotionally neglected in a way. Maybe even you could call it like, emotionally abandoned. My parents were dealing with really heavy things in their own life, their own trauma, their own whatever. So there was a. You know, I was definitely lone wolfed, I guess, right? So my adaptation at that time was to own the lone wolf. Right. It was kind of put on me, but I then therefore owned it. So I was dealing with, you know, at the time, not knowing, but aspects of neurodivergence, being gay. At this time, I was probably around 8, 8 or 9 years old, and I learned from a very young age to just turn off, turn off, needing people, turn off, needing support. And I just started to develop a very, very rich inner world. And I became very introverted. And I think that's. It's just important to note that because for me, it was it was an adaptation and it was about safety. And I learned how to be very independent and not rely on people. And so I would say there's certain aspects. So my, you know, the trauma of that and the neurodivergence piece, those were both. Safety, like that's what I get out of it. I got safety. I was able to retreat in a sense. It was a dissociative pattern. I was dissociating from, from people, from my emotions. And it allowed me to survive really at the end of the day. So it gave me survival, it gave me safety. I think that's a really, really important piece to note. And then the introversion part, I think it's actually part of my, my temperament. I think I am more introverted by nature. And for me, that is the lone wolf in me is very, very comfortable being alone. And again, there's the side to it where, where it's could be fear based, it could be isolation. And then there's the other part where it's independent. So the part where it's independence is I am, I spend most of my time alone and I love it. Like, I'm very connected to nature, I'm very connected to spirit, I'm very connected to plants and animals. And like I get a lot of joy and contentment out of that. Then I get a lot of my social connection from the work I do, right. Like doing counseling. But when I move into that independence energy, it's often rooted in self care because unlike an extrovert who gets charged by people, I get depleted by people. So I work with people for a living. I'm giving a lot of myself and my energy. So when I go into lone wolf energy on the independent side, I'm really taking care of myself. And the other thing too is that I have full control. Right. When you're by yourself, I have control of the lighting, I have control of what I watch on tv, I have control of my mood. All these things when as soon as you bring someone into the picture, right. You're therefore then having to compromise. You're having to work with two energies coming together, choosing in what we're going to eat, like those sorts of things. So it's like I like having full control over my experience. So that's, that's definitely a plus to the lone wolf energy.
• 7:21
  Speaker A: Yeah, Matt, this is one of the ways in which we are so, so alike.
• 7:25
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
• 7:26
  Speaker A: Very, very. Like everything you said, I could just repeat the same, same thing. In fact, I've been, for those of you watching on YouTube. You can see that I'm not at home. I'm at my parents cottage about two hours north of Toronto, surrounded by nature, a lake. No one's here. I'm here alone with my parents dog, which is behind me. And I've been doing this for a week. They're traveling away. So I've been alone, the dog in nature for an entire week. And it has been beautiful. So I totally get that. And I think Matt, you brought up a good point about the origin story. I think that's something that I'm going to actually answer for myself as well. My origin story at least when I think back to where did this lone wolf part come from, this energy, when did it kind of come online for me? For me I was always shy as a kid, but it really became a safety mechanism for me from when I was realizing I was gay and in the closet, the closet was my original survival, safety, lone wolf place for the exact same reasons you had said, right? Survival, safety. I didn't know a lot about being gay. I didn't know who I could come up to. I didn't. I wasn't even fully aware of that word when I was first coming to terms with my sexuality. I didn't have any words for it. I just knew that it was strange and weird and dangerous and not good. So I retreated within. And as all my friends were, you know, becoming, you know, more social and going out and doing things, I just wanted to go within myself. And I did. And very similar to you, that wasn't a bad thing. I retreated very much into music. Like you'd always see. If you see pictures of me as like a kid, I've got my headphones on and my walkman and my desk and like just literally shutting out the world. And my music was my safe place, my happy place. Also books, writing, nature, biking, things I still do today, by the way. So that, that's where it came online and it was really beautiful and there was nothing wrong with it. I didn't have to face questions about girlfriends and, you know, all those other things that I didn't want to face. So that's a really good point that you made. And I think for a lot of people, if you think for yourself, where did this first come online? For me it's just a good question to ask, but now I want to answer the part about how it serves me now. And I think without repeating everything Matt said, I think for me it is, it is an act of self love. When I think of that independence, it's like, it sounds positive to say I don't need anyone to give me love, support, attention, approval, acceptance, because I give that all to myself. So it is a lot of self reliance and self sufficiency. And it's true. It's true. I'm here for a week and like, sure, there's times I'm like, oh, it'd be nice if I had someone to have dinner with. But like, it's not the end of the world. I also travel alone and. Exactly what Matt, you were saying. Like, it's so easy to travel alone because I could just do what I want, when I want. I can make the itinerary I want. It's wonderful. I don't have to, like, run things by anyone. But I. I think the best part of it is, is like, I have a very high degree of self love and self acceptance and I'm very kind. Well, not always, but I'm usually very kind to myself and I treat myself well. I know what I need. I know how to give myself what I need. So that part of it, I think is beautiful and I can stand on my own and be okay and still have that part of me that's like, okay, yeah, maybe I do want someone here with me. But it doesn't hit like it might for a lot of other people who really feel that loneliness and yearning and longing. So it's empowering. I feel very empowered when I think about my lone wolf sometimes.
• 10:59
  Speaker B: You know what's interesting is it's like there's a fine line for me when my over. I call it an overdeveloped independence. My overdeveloped independence. That's what my lone wolf is in that side of things. And it's like for the longest time, I wasn't good at letting people impact me because I was so dissociated, I was so disconnected. And when people would. Would trigger me or when people would, you know, want to compromise in my relationships or those sorts of things. I was terrible at people impacting me and me becoming dysregulated because of that. So I think that for me was. Was a great challenge. And then like, coming out of that, coming out of dissociation and learning how to train my nervous system into what I would call, like, the balance of these two things would probably be like interdependence, right? And being able to be on my own, but also being able to come into connection and tolerate that. I think so, yeah. Working through some of the things that I've worked through and getting to the. To where I'M at now. I feel like I have a nice balance of being able to let myself be impacted. But, and, and when you think about impacted too, it's not necessarily just inconveniently. It can be, like, impacted with love and connection and support. Like off the top of the episode, you said, like, you know, reaching out or asking for help or I'll do it all on my own. Like, that's, that was my M.O. most of my life. It's like I don't need anybody. And so it's. Yeah, it's very humbling moving through the, the shadow side of the lone wolf. Right. And learning how to bring yourself back into the pack.
• 12:32
  Speaker A: Yeah. It's like for us and anyone out there who's lone wolf, it's like the, the aloneness, the solitude is the default. And it's a beautiful default. It's not a bad default, it's a good default. And so the work for us is actually connection. That's the part that takes conscious, intentional effort and feels dangerous. It's actually going out into the world and connecting with others because our, our inner world is safe, beautiful, magical, even.
• 12:57
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
• 12:58
  Speaker A: Yeah. And I think what happens is there's nothing wrong. There's nothing wrong with standing on your own. It's what I've learned. But if you do it for too long and that becomes the default, it might not feel like empowerment anymore. Now it's just a matter of protecting yourself and shutting people out. Which we'll get to. We'll get to that part.
• 13:14
  Speaker B: Yeah. It's a fine line to walk. It truly is. Like, I, I've spoken openly on this podcast about having a disorganized attachment and have done a lot of healing. I would say I've even made it more towards, like, full security now. Like, I feel very secure. But walking that line is just so challenging. Like, you know, the fearful and the avoidant, like, you got these two sides of, of the attachment and wanting connection, but then being terrified of connection and. Yeah. So it's quite exhausting. Is there times in your, in your life where you're. Where that part of you that is hyper independent and you have a rich inner world and you're good to be on your own, you're good to travel, but is there a time in your life where you feel like, loneliness or disconnected because of it?
• 13:59
  Speaker A: Oh, yeah, for sure. And that, that's the thing. When I, when that happens to me, it's always in those moments. And I'll tell myself, like, wait a minute, I wanted this, like, you know, this is something that I was looking forward to. So when I travel alone, I get so excited to travel alone. And then I travel alone and I'm there and I'm like, wait a minute. This is lonely. But I'm like, wait a minute. But I want this. And this is big mess of. I want this, and I love it. But also it does. It does invite loneliness to be there.
• 14:23
  Speaker B: Yeah. There's lots of research that gay men tend to have more. They more fall on the avoidance side of attachment styles, which a lot of people listening to this, you might even relate to the lone wolf syndrome just because of that. Like, it's motivated by fear. Right. Avoidant attachment is, you know, all the things that you listed up the top. Right. Those are a lot of characteristics of somebody with an avoidant attachment style. It's like, I'm better off on my own. I don't need people. People disappoint me. Like, a lot of that stuff, it's. And. And I relate to it all. It's. Yeah.
• 14:52
  Speaker A: And I think for a lot of people, it is the closet. I don't know if the research indicates that as well, but I do think if you have been in the closet for a year, two years, some people, like 15, 20, some people their whole lives, that closet is, in its own way, you're a safe space. And so it's almost like it's become natural to not let people in, because letting people in is essentially coming out, and coming out equals danger, and that's not what we want. So it makes perfect sense to me why so many gay men would have a lot of that lone wolf energy and that avoidant attachment.
• 15:24
  Speaker B: Yeah. And just a deep, deep seated loneliness. I work with a lot of people, a lot of gay men who are terribly lonely. Right. And there's this almost like a. An epidemic in our culture around, like, fearing intimacy. So just keep going from one guy to another at like a maybe a 5 out of 10, never getting to that 10 out of 10 because of a fear of intimacy. And then, you know, you're getting older, getting older, and you don't have that love because we. We don't know how to have it because we are motivated by this. This isolation aspect of the lone wolf syndrome, which is, you know, very much rooted in fear of intimacy, fear of rejection, fear of judgment, fear of all the things that we've been conditioned into being afraid of. So it's. Yeah, this is an important conversation, for sure.
• 16:07
  Speaker A: I'm smiling that, because that's exactly what I wrote in My newsletter today, I want to read you the very end of it.
• 16:12
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 16:13
  Speaker A: Very last. The very last bit of it, it says, are gay men doomed to be alone? We learned to survive, to perform, and to prove our worth. But did we ever learn to love and to be loved in return? I don't know your whole story, but I know you deserve more than survival. I see you. And that's how it ended. So, yeah, I love that.
• 16:32
  Speaker B: I love that.
• 16:33
  Speaker A: Really important stuff. And I agree, a lot of my gay clients are lonely as well. Not just older, but even younger, too. And I think it's exactly that. Like, we learned how to survive on our own, but who taught us how to love truly and be seen truly?
• 16:46
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. It's like learning connection.
• 16:49
  Speaker A: All right, let's check in with our audience, shall we? So, for our listeners and viewers out there, I want to know, how does the lone wolf energy show up in your life? Go ahead and give us some stories or examples of how this shows up. And if you're enjoying the conversation we're having here, we want to invite you to our weekly events within the gay Men's Brotherhood. We have sharing circles where you'll have a chance to share your own experiences in a bigger group. It's passive. You can show up and just listen if you want. And those events are complimentary. We also have our connection circles, which are more engaging, and it's really about engaging in a small, intimate breakout room with three or more people where you can discuss the topics that we discuss here in the podcast. So think of it as exactly what we do here every week. If you're interested in these events, Please go to Gaiman'sBrotherhood.com and check out our events section to RSVP. Make sure you get on our email list, and if so, we will email you the links for the Zoom events before they happen. Okay, Matt, let's talk about what the motivation here is. What makes you, in the moment, want to cut people off or shut them out?
• 17:54
  Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, geez. I'm trying to, like, just navigate my attachment patterns right now. It's like, yeah, it's all fear. It's fear. Everything comes back to fear. It's like fear of. Well, a big one that I'm navigating right now is fear of not being good enough. Like in dating, right? It's like, you know, putting myself out there, and it's like, am I going to be good enough? Am I going to be rejected? And then this. So there's this fear of, like, you know, don't put yourself out there because you don't want to have to deal with the pain of not being good enough. And I think so that that's a part of my attachment style that when I feel that inadequacy starting to come on, it almost feels existential too. It's like this. It's like a deep, deep feeling of like, not being good enough. And there's a part of me that wants to just run. It's like I don't want to put myself out there. So I think that's when I would likely shut people out. And then I try and think of how I, how I negotiate with that. My ego is like fault finding, right? It's like all find faults in the, in them. So it kind of levels the playing field. It's like, makes it less painful to either walk away or to be walked away from. I think that's, that's a big one. And then less so much about dating, more about friends and just the gay community, the gay culture. It's this fear of like, not belonging. And I become very good at othering myself, like even within our, our community, right. It's like I other myself from the heterosexual world, but I also other myself from the gay world. And I just keep othering and keep othering. And it's almost like I'm othering myself before I can be othered in a way, because that's one side of it. The other side of it is like why I shut people out is because of lack of resonance, right? It's like I, I know that I'm different to a point, but I also think maybe sometimes I've taken on too much of an identity around difference and I've created a reality around me of people are different than me. But I also want to honor my, my reality too, that I. That's the experience that I've had, right? So, you know, again, it comes back to being neurodivergent. I think that's a big piece of it. Like, I feel like I. My nervous system's different. I think differently. Oftentimes the humor that I have is a little bit different from other people and things like that. And, and then just being a seeker, right? And like being on this path and having, you know, been on this path for almost, geez, like almost 20 years now of being on a, on a spiritual path. And not everybody's on that path, right? And a lot of gay and queer men aren't on that path. So it's like I find that it's been. It's been challenging that way. So I find like there's a part of me that's just like I'd rather just shut those people out than. And I think that's also part of it, is that it's lazy. It's my ego being lazy because I think I would rather look for differences than similarities because guess what, it's a lot easier to look for, for differences in, in people. And that's my trauma part. My trauma part got very, very good at looking and scanning environments for what's safe and what's not safe. And for me, differences are unsafe. So my brain is very conditioned to going to looking for unsafe people, unsafe environments where there's a possibility I'll be rejected or that I won't belong or that I'll be hurt, these sorts of things. And then. So looking for similarities is rooted in love. Right? Right. It's rooted in compassion and understanding and these sorts of things. And I think that's harder. It's like it's not the low hanging fruit. Right. In my opinion. So I have to really work at reminding myself of the human condition and that we're all on this planet and we all know love in our hearts. We all know hate in our hearts. Right. We all have this kind of, this duality of, of the human experience and just reminding myself of that. So it's like sometimes maybe that's where I can look for similarities in people is like maybe we have similar beliefs or maybe that we have similar pain, these sorts of things. So yeah, it's a very complex question to answer. Yeah.
• 21:54
  Speaker A: You answered it so wonderfully though. And I think there's a lot of people out there that are like nodding because I was. That certainly resonates with me. For sure, for sure. And it goes back to the default bit like it is. If being alone is the safe default, then of course your brain is wired to see anything else's danger. So we really have to work extra hard at connecting, at seeing the similarities. As you were saying. Yeah.
• 22:18
  Speaker B: There's a mechanism in our brain called the reticular activating system, the ras. And it's basically that what I'm talking about, the lazy part of our brain that just scans an environment for confirmation bias basically. Right. It's like this is how I think the world is. So guess what? I'm going to look out at the world and I'm going to find exactly what I think the world is. Right. If you. A good example of this is, is growing up gay thinking that people are going to hate you. Right. And when somebody rejects you or when somebody doesn't want to hang out with you, it's immediately, it's because I'm gay. Right. And we start scanning our environment for why people aren't going to like us because we're gay. Right. And it's like, so we're, we're always creating our own reality through this, this mechanism of our brain, which is, is quite lazy. And I think it contributes to a lot of the issues we have on our planet.
• 23:03
  Speaker A: Yeah. Or shame, right. If you have a deep seated shame and you believe that you're not good enough or you're not, whatever, anytime someone rejects you or just, you know, there's a perceived rejection even automatically it's like, oh, say, there you go. That's why. It's because you're not good enough. And that's like information bias. That works. So, yeah, very, very good point.
• 23:21
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 23:21
  Speaker A: We do have to work very hard at this stuff and we talk about that a lot. Like, how do we change that? And it takes practice and it takes time. So, yeah, be patient with yourself.
• 23:30
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 23:30
  Speaker A: This exact question came up because it was an exact question that I was dealing with what maybe two weeks ago. I just had this day, it's a bad day. And I was like, I am just done with the world. I want to move into the middle of the woods and just fuck off and fuck it all and that's it. Live off the land and just retire from life and be with me because I am wonderful when I bring my music and, you know, just have a great time by myself. And it was. When I look back to. And it was very recent when I look back to why that I was thinking that it came from pain and a lack of what I believe to be reciprocity of others. So I felt misunderstood. I felt like people didn't get me. Like no one gets me. This is just. I'm not meant for this, this world. Not in a bad way, but like in a. I need to go over here where no one can find me away. And it really, when I journaled on this, it was a grief. That was what I was experiencing. I was experiencing a mismatch between my expectations of others and what I was getting in return. What I had hoped for and what I got. And that made me feel angry. And beneath that was sad and beneath that was grief. And maybe beneath that was probably fear and even shame. So, you know, it was like a fuck you all. I'll show you. Like, I'm just gonna go over here and I'll be fine on my own, you know, whatever.
• 25:02
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 25:02
  Speaker A: This defiant kind of energy which in that moment is protecting me. It was protecting me. And it felt strong and it felt good and it felt empowering even. But the problem with it is I can't lie to myself for too, too long. Deep down I know, I know that I am somebody who loves connection, who loves people, who does ultimately want to be seen and accepted and loved and most of all, most of all understood. And so that cutting people off in that moment might be protecting me, but at the same time, if I took, you know, five steps forward, it was like, oh, wait a minute, this can't work. This is not a solution. Because if I vanish, which is what I want to do in the moment, how could anyone see me and love me and understand me?
• 25:45
  Speaker B: Yeah. We're creating our own prison. Yeah, right. Our prison of disconnection. And then, right. So it's easy to be like, oh, no one's there for me, no one's there for me. I hate everybody. But there's a part of us that's not actually letting people in to nourish us or love us in the way that maybe we're, we're craving it. So that's the definition of disorganized attachment in my opinion.
• 26:08
  Speaker A: For me it was like, if I can't have it the way I need it, then I'll, I'll just do it myself. It always goes back to then that self reliance, like, I'll just do this myself. I don't need your love. I love me even harder than you'll love me. I'll love me better. And there's that kind of energy. But in fact that's yes, self love is great, but so is connection and need. That I need that. I need that. I want that. And there was a time in my life where I could kind of convince myself I didn't like, I don't need anyone. Like, and I still can't convince myself. And if I'm in the right mood, then I don't need anyone. But really, really, really, when I really look at myself in the mirror, I'm like, no, Michael, you want to be loved?
• 26:47
  Speaker B: Yeah. What do you, when you are in that energy, what are you craving? Like, specifically, I know it's love, but like what are you craving?
• 26:56
  Speaker A: Understanding. And this, this particular one, it's just like I just felt no one understands me. I'm too complicated, I'm too complex, I'm too nuanced. I'm too multi layered and I often get a Disconnect when people feel compelled to put me in a box. And I am very multi layered, as you know. And I do. And so I can't stand when people just put me in a box and fail to see that there's so much more to me than what they've put on me. And I just want to be understood and seen. I want to be seen for the full multi layered person I am.
• 27:27
  Speaker B: Yeah. Which is interesting because it's like I, it makes total sense, right. You're this young boy, no one understands you, that you're queer and you're dealing with these things and you've got these, this head set in and you're listening to music. You're in your own inner world. Right. There's this part in you that's going protector, but there's also this party that's like, I want to be seen, I want to be understood. I want people to take an interest in me and see that I'm more than just, you know, these labels or whatever it might be. Right. It's the conflict, it's the inner conflict.
• 27:54
  Speaker A: It is, it's very conflicting within. And that reminds me of, I specifically have a memory of me as a kid and I was at a campground and all the other kids, I might have been like 12, all the other kids were playing and they, I was watching them play and I had my music in and I went to the park and I was swinging on the swing. I used to love swinging on the swings. I still do love swinging on swings and like swaying and just like singing and whatever I was doing. Listening to music and loving it. And then also secretly wishing that some of those kids would come and say, hey, come play with us. But like, I might have said no. So it's so conflicting within me.
• 28:32
  Speaker B: Yeah. How does the same desire show up for you in relationship, like intimate relationship?
• 28:38
  Speaker A: Well, yeah, I think it's. I mean, I've. I toggle back and forth between wanting a relationship and wanting to be single. Because the truth is I love them both. I love single Michael and single life and I also love relationship Michael and relationship life. And I think it's kind of the same inner conflict where I date and then dating doesn't go well. I'm like, oh, I got this, I'm done with it. Just going to be single forever, no problem. I'll be single, I'll be happy, I'll travel alone, I'll live alone, everything will be great. And then a week later I'm like, you know what? I kind of would love Someone to cuddle with right now. And then I go back, and then I start looking again, and that's how it plays out.
• 29:13
  Speaker B: Oh, God. I feel so sorry for people that have to date Geminis because we are a handful. So much inner conflict. It's just the story of my life. Everything. It's like, I want this, and then five minutes later, no, I want the opposite of that. It's just. It's exhausting being a Gemini. Truly. Yeah.
• 29:29
  Speaker A: Where does this show up in your dating life? Same question.
• 29:32
  Speaker B: Well, to answer the original question, I would say I yearn for someone to take an interest in me, and it's because I didn't have that as a kid, right? Like, I was going through big things. I was trying to navigate all these big feelings, big everything, and. And my parents were really invested in their own emotional worlds, and they didn't take an interest in mine. So I have this deep, deep yearning to be known. I think to be known in my pain was a big part of it, but to be also known in just who I am, my identity, you know, who I want to be, who I want to become, my ideas, my passions. Like, so I. I have a deep yearning for people to be curious about me and to take an interest in me and to ask me questions. And so that's the way to my heart as soon as I. And that's, you know, to answer the question. What makes me want to shut people out is somebody that doesn't have a natural instinct, curiosity. So that's my. That's my measuring stick. When I'm dating, if I ask a question to somebody and they don't ask it back, I'm like, yellow flag. I'll just. I'll make a mental note because I'm like. And not all the time. I'm not. I'm going to give people the benefit of the doubt. But if it's a constant pattern where, you know, they're takers in a relationship, I'm a very much a giver. Yeah, I do the thing that I didn't get. I'm an exceptional listener. I take an interest in people. I get to know people. I make people feel seen and heard. So I want that same thing back. And most of my life, I've attracted guys who are takers because I was imbalanced in my ability to receive. Right. And my. My giver nature, that was very much the codependency that I had learned as a child. So a lot of my work has been learning how to receive and learning how to be value like value myself and say, yes, I deserve to have someone take an interest in who I am. Right.
• 31:19
  Speaker A: So same honey.
• 31:21
  Speaker B: Same honey.
• 31:22
  Speaker A: I know, same honey. But, okay, let's. Let's talk about this for just a sec. Don't you find that because of the work we do, we are naturally going to be just more well versed and maybe more skilled and more capable? Because this is what we do. We do this all day, every day with people. Right? And so we know how to hold space, we know how to listen, we know how to ask questions, we know how to be curious. Not only do we know how, but obviously we do this work because we genuinely like to do that.
• 31:45
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 31:45
  Speaker A: So sometimes I feel like when I'm on a date with somebody, I'm like, I need to give them the benefit of the doubt that they might not be as comfortable in that role as I am. And so I kind of struggle with that word. It's like, of course I want the same thing that you just said. I resonated with what you said very deeply. But also it's like, are my expectations too high?
• 32:05
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, it's a tough thing. So the last two guys that I've dated were both therapists, and that was a beautiful thing because again, we're professional space holders. So do I expect somebody to be a professional at it? No. But there's curious people and then there's people who don't have that innate desire to want to, you know, look at the world with awe and be curious about everything. Like that, for me, is the most attractive quality in a man that I'm romantically interested in, because I want that. I just think it has to be intrinsic. Right. Can you train somebody to be genuinely curious? I don't think so. I think, you know, in certain areas, people are going to have certain passions, and I think I would want a man who is generally interested about, about others, their psychology, their emotionality, those sorts of things. So. But I do think that you can learn how to hold space. Right? And that's what I do. I literally, in all my programs, my group programs, I teach gay men how to hold space, how to hold space for themselves, mainly. And then that's how you learn how to hold space for others, how to communicate, how to listen. Like, these are all the things that, you know, we teach people and what our programs are about and our coaching collection and all that. So, yeah, I've run a bit of a tight ship in this area because I think I want that. And I'm gonna, I'm not gonna Settle for anything less than that.
• 33:23
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Well said. It's sort of tough because that is the root of maybe the feeling misunderstood. And for what you have said and the people not being curious about me, it's. Well, no one can show up for me the way I can show up for me. No one's gonna listen to me the way I listen to me. No one's gonna meet my needs the way I meet my needs because I'm just so fucking good at it at this point. Like, I have a lot of really good experience learning how to do that. But underneath that. Yeah. Like, the emotion underneath it is grief for me and disappointment. And at first, there's two flavors of it. Now that I'm thinking about it. One is they're the problem. Okay. And then if I go through that, I go deeper. Then there's a flavor of it that's I'm the problem. Like, it's the same thing. Like, something's wrong with me and that's why people aren't able to connect with me. It's not like they're misunderstanding me. That's like part one, but part two is I'm not understandable.
• 34:16
  Speaker B: Yeah, I relate, I think. Yeah. There's. There's a part in me that whenever I'm struggling, I'm not a reach out to somebody kind of guy. I do it all on my own. And the only person I reach out to is somebody that I pay because I know that they're going to offer me what it is that I'm looking for. Right. They're good listeners. They ask the right questions, which would be like a therapist, coach, counselor, that sort of thing. But I have an innate belief where my mind always goes into the young mat. It's the hurt mat, the grieving mat, which is people won't understand. People will not be able to meet me where I'm at. So there's no point.
• 34:51
  Speaker A: Right.
• 34:51
  Speaker B: That's a defeatist mentality that I naturally, organically go into whenever I'm struggling. And I still am struggling with this, truly. Like, if I'm being completely honest, like, it's not like something like, oh, I've mastered this because I haven't had the reparative experiences of being in a. In a secure relationship where that's my person, that they're there for me. They can reflect to me and they can take curiosity me. Like, there's only so much that you can put this on a friend, in my opinion, because then your friend becomes your therapist. I don't think that's Healthy. But can we turn to people for support? Yes. Okay. Is this something I need to continue working on? 100%.
• 35:26
  Speaker A: Yeah. This is a great conversation. It's already been helping me personally, so I love it. Let's take a little moment for our viewers and listeners to chime in as well. And, you know, based on what Matt and I were just saying, I want you to check in with yourself and reflect on a time when you've maybe felt the urge to withdraw and cut people off and ask yourself, what was the surface level? Motivation? Sure. But then was there anything underlying that? Was it about protection? Was it about fear? Was it about grief? Shame? Really ask yourself what's really beneath it. Go deeper. And feel free, if you're so inclined to share with us in the comments what is revealed to you. If you want to take this topic to the next level, we have amazing courses on our online coaching collection that includes two courses. One is called Healing youg Shame, which we've talked about a little bit today. And the second one is called Building Better Relationships. In addition to those two courses, there are 45 coaching videos and they cover topics from body positivity, relationships, building community, and self confidence. There's a lot of really good stuff in there where Matt and I and Callan share some of our best material on this and other topics. So please go to gameandgoingkeeper.com to get access to that. And by the way, guys, once you get it, you have a lifetime access. All right, this is the million dollar question, which I actually, spoiler alert, don't fully have an answer for. So I'm curious to see where this goes. How can you honor your need for solitude without shutting people out?
• 37:00
  Speaker B: Yeah, this is. I didn't really. I didn't prepare for this episode. I didn't prepare for this question either. So it's kind of nice that I'm able to kind of just take my time here and not be so certain as I tend to always be. It's nice to be uncertain and to not know in the moment. Yeah, I'm like, I'm in this right now. Like, I'm starting to date ish. And I'm so rooted in myself right now. Like, it's like, abnormal. I'm like, I've never experienced this before. I'm so rooted in myself that I'm almost too rooted in myself where it's like I'm having a hard time taking an interest in other people, which I think is a good thing for me because I'm usually so focused on other people. And like I even noticed this when I was in Mexico when we were out at the, the bar together. My default is to be in everyone else's reality and I'm like having fun through them. I'm like watching them, I'm like feeling their vibe, their energy. And then I'm like, wait a minute, I'm like, Matt, like, come back home to you. What's your experience? Like, what's going on for you here? Right. So I tend to know that I have this default pattern to go there. But I think the, the biggest thing for me is, well, it's going to come down to communication, like letting people know because right now I'm almost calling myself like consciously avoidant because I'm very aware of my avoidance, I'm very aware of my desire to want to just spend a lot of time alone and I'm communicating that to people. So, you know, and actually another thing too is that like, for example, I've been chatting with this guy for the last couple months and there was a day where I just didn't feel like talking and I was just not interested. And I think, I think I just said that. I said I'm having a bit of a tough day. I'm just going to take the day to myself. So I'm doing the opposite of what was done to me as when I was dating avoidant men is that they would just off and they, and then they would leave me to not know. Right. I think I can offer somebody the respect to let them know that I'm feeling my lone wolf energy and, and to communicate that. And I think that's going to be an important skill for me because I am highly independent. And that's not going to change because I, I'm very content like that. And I'm almost in the point where I'm like, do I. Would I want to have somebody? Would I want to live with somebody? Again, I'm not sure of the answer to that question at this point because I love being home. I love being just. There's just something about it. Or would I move into a bigger house with a guy and have my own separate quarters where I can, it can be my space. There's just something about me. I'm just like that, like I, I need my own, my own space, my own time to process. And I think as I'm developing more security in my attachment style, there's not the anxiety attached to that of like, what's my partner doing? Right. So I would leave my organic nature, which is to be solo to be in their world because I didn't trust them or I felt anxious. Now that I'm. I've healed that part of myself, I'm like, damn. Like, I really want to be alone a lot of the time. And it feels really good to be alone. I hike alone. So, yeah, I don't know. It's all about communication. It comes down to communication and letting people know where I'm at and what I'm feeling. And if I ever date a partner that has a core wound around not being chosen or being abandoned or these sort of things, I'll have to really preface that core wound for them and let them know, like, this isn't about you. Like, this is about. Right. Like, I love you, I care about you, but I require a lot of. A lot of space. And so maybe a good partner for me would be somebody who is similar, and they. They value their freedom and their independence, but they also value connection at the same time.
• 40:36
  Speaker A: Yes, that's exactly it. I think when I think of my ideal partner, it's someone who I can feel as safe and comfortable with in their company as I do alone.
• 40:48
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 40:49
  Speaker A: And what that might look like for me is someone who can occupy space with me.
• 40:53
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 40:54
  Speaker A: And, like, we don't necessarily have to be on or interacting, like, in that way. And I love that. Like, I could be here and, you know, I'm looking at the cottage now when you can be there and I'm doing my thing and you're doing your thing, but it's still. We're together, but not necessarily always, like, interacting necessarily and something who I can feel completely safe to be me with. So that way, I don't feel like I'm giving up anything. Like this beautiful cocoon I've built. It's not like I have to give it up. It's like, join me in my cocoon kind of thing.
• 41:22
  Speaker B: Yeah, that's it. I like that. And there's a term called parallel play. Where. And that's like, something that I would really love in a partner. Is that. Because I find that what can happen, especially with the type of work that I do after my work days, my ears turn off. Like, I got no more presence left in me. I can't offer that. So I tend to go into this almost like a healthy dissociation where I'm like. I'm just really rooted in myself, and I'm, like, kind of numbed out a little bit because I just need to recharge. So if I had a partner that was very chatty and Wanted to talk all the time. It would probably be too much for me. So somebody that. It's like we can be in each other's energy, but we don't have to necessarily be filling it with words as much. Yeah.
• 42:01
  Speaker A: Or there's a time and a place. Exactly. Yeah. Same as you. That's why I go to the gym after I'm done my work day. And again, I put my music in and I'm like, don't talk to me. Let me just do this thing. And it's very healing, I guess, is the right word for me.
• 42:13
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 42:14
  Speaker A: Okay. I don't think I answered the question. How do you honor need for solid? Well, I don't have an answer, so I'll tell you what I've learned so far. I think what I've learned about myself is that my initial reaction or my initial instinct will be to withdraw. Like, we've talked about all the reasons why. Protection, safety, all those things. And that's not a bad thing. I'm going to allow myself to have that first automatic instinct. I'm not going to argue against that. But where I need to do better is that, like, defiant, rebellious, fuck you kind of attitude that comes with it. I want to turn the volume on that down to more of a. I don't need to, like, ghost the world to be happy, but maybe I need a break. Maybe I need a day. Maybe I need a week up here in the woods. I don't know how long I need. Maybe I just need an hour and really land on, like, a more balanced approach instead of the swing, like this really heavy swing of the pendulum. One way, if I can take that down a bit and say, you know what? I just need a bit of space to recalibrate because. Because I'm feeling disappointed and because I'm feeling grief or angry or, you know, whatever it might be to, like, work on that on my own, which I don't think is a bad thing. I think I'm good at working on that on my own. I just eventually, though, I need to come to terms with the fact that I don't want to be like this forever. I do eventually want to come back, and I do want that connection, and I do want the relationship or the friendship or whatever it is.
• 43:37
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 43:38
  Speaker A: So just taking that down a notch, I guess, is what I'm trying. It's where I'm at now. It's what I'm trying to do. Like, I don't need to punish the world for. For not seeing me. I just need to take A little bit of space, feel the disappointment of it, and then when I'm ready, get back in that arena.
• 43:55
  Speaker B: Yeah. There's such a correlation. You've said this a couple times. There's. There's such a correlation for you around disappointment and disappointment being a factor of what. When you go into that, that lone wolf energy. And I think I resonate so much. And if you think about my experience and what I've shared, it's like, yes, it comes down to disappointment. No one was there for me. No one took an interest in me. So there's a. Matt is disappointed. Right. And I think it's as I'm again achieving more security in my attachment style and allows me to access more forgiveness, more compassion, more understanding, more empathy. And what I look at now is it's like my dad exhibits similar qualities to me, or I should say I exhibit similar qualities to him in the sense that he's very much a lone wolf. Right. So he was going into his organicness Right. When he was retreating into his own emotional world to take care of himself. I was a victim of that, yes. Not directly, probably it was more indirectly. So I was able to offer compassion to my dad, just kind of following his instincts and what he does to take care of himself. Right. When he's feeling probably disappointed, his marriage is ending, these sorts of things. So I think it's to bring it full circle. I think that's what I'm saying is I've learned ways to cope with disappointment instead of having to, when I'm disappointed, punish the world or retreat. It's like, how can I have an understanding of, you know, this person is taking care of themselves? And yes, I got disappointed as a result of it. But I know what it's like to need to take care of myself. And that is, it allows me to. I think it allows me to soften the blow. I'm not going to say it totally takes it away because disappointment is actually, I would say one of the harder things for me to feel. Jealousy and disappointment are probably two of the really the harder ones to feel for me.
• 45:44
  Speaker A: Yeah, disappointment is a tough one for me to swallow as well. But yeah, there's a lot of reasons why, but I don't often disappoint myself, truly.
• 45:52
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 45:53
  Speaker A: And if I do, then I'm really. I mean, I'm pretty. I don't know, it's just. It can. It goes back to that like self reliance. Like, you know, my friends will joke like, Michael, you just want like a carbon copy view to date. I'm Like, I mean, kind of like, if someone could talk to me the way I talk to me, if someone could give me feedback and criticism the way I give myself. Well, maybe not criticism's part. I'm a bit. I'm a bit rough in my own mind, but if someone can, like, understand, like, oh, he needs to be held right now, or he needs to be left alone right now. Like, if someone just had that manual of how to handle Michael. Oh, my gosh, please, here, take it. Read it, and, like, give me all the love. Like, I know for sure I want to live with somebody. I know for sure I want to cuddle every fucking day. I want all that stuff. And also, I want them to know, okay, leave this alone, because he needs a minute.
• 46:37
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So. And. And, you know, to solve that is, like, if you're a partner of someone that is a lone wolf and such an important question is, what do you need from me right now? Or what do you need right now? Right. A lot of us go into fixer, and it's like, we try and just offer whatever. It's like, just ask. Ask someone what you need. But you also, if you're a lone wolf, you got to get good at knowing what you need so you can communicate that to your partner or partners. Right. And let them know, like, I need to be held right now. Don't try and fix me. Don't try and cheer me up. Just hold me while I'm hurting. Right. Giving people instruction into how to care for you is a skill.
• 47:09
  Speaker A: Yeah. Or sometimes, you know, you just need to vent or whatever it is. You just need to, like, be angry. That's a great question. I love that. This has been such a good conversation for me right now. I think it actually has helped me. Yeah.
• 47:20
  Speaker B: Good. Yeah, I'm glad. I feel the same way. We did another podcast on this.
• 47:25
  Speaker A: Yes, we did.
• 47:25
  Speaker B: It'd be funny to watch it and hear how we were. We were relating to this topic prior. It was a while ago.
• 47:33
  Speaker A: I will link it. Yeah, it was a while ago. I will link it in the show notes. And I've been wanting to do this again for a while, specifically with you and I. That. Because I know that's personal for us. And so I like that in this one, we kind of took off our coach hats and counselor huts, and we're very real. It felt very real and alive for me, as I said, it is right now.
• 47:51
  Speaker B: Yeah. Maybe I'll leave it with, you know, don't imprison yourself. Don't imprison yourself because there's more to life. Like we're here on this planet to indulge in connection and love and have these experiences. So if you do find yourself imprisoning yourself in the isolation piece, honor the independent part in you, but also be willing to come out of your comfort zone and move towards letting people be there for you. It's important.
• 48:14
  Speaker A: And to answer the question, is it isolation or independence? The answer is it's both.
• 48:19
  Speaker B: Exactly.
• 48:20
  Speaker A: It's and it's and not. Or.
• 48:22
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 48:23
  Speaker A: All right. Thank you Matt for all of your shares today and being so vulnerable with us. As always, thank you for our listeners and viewers for sticking with us on this episode. If you're on YouTube, remember to just go ahead and tap that thanks button to show us some love. And if you listen to us on Apple, you can subscribe to get early access to our episodes about three weeks before they are released wide. And those are ad free episodes. By the way. All of your support helps us continue making content for you and supporting our community. So we thank you so, so much in advance. And guys, we would love to see you at our next event. So please join us. Go to gaimansbrotherhood.com for more. Have a good one.