Latest / hol+ with Dr. Taz MD | The Future of Medicine is Holistic / Your Attachment Style Is Running Your Relationships: Thais Gibson on Core Wounds, Ghosting & Rewiring Your Subconscious Mind
Transcript
- [00:00:00] Thais Gibson, PhD: I do not believe in affirmations at all. [00:00:03] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:00:04] Thais Gibson, PhD: Affirmations are [00:00:05] the conscious mind speaking to the conscious mind. Okay? Your conscious mind speaks language. If [00:00:10] I say to you, "Okay, Dr. Taz, whatever you do, do not think of a pink elephant," y- you, you hear do [00:00:15] not, but you probably flashed a pink elephant, right? [00:00:17] Thais Gibson, PhD: And so your conscious mind heard do not, but it was too late. Your subconscious [00:00:20] flashed a, a pink elephant. Your subconscious mind speaks in emotions and images. It doesn't [00:00:25] hear or, or recognize language in the same way at all. And so when we use [00:00:30] affirmations, we're using our conscious mind to just reach our conscious mind. [00:00:33] Thais Gibson, PhD: Nobody has [00:00:35] core wounds at a conscious level of mind. Nobody wakes up and says, "Today, I'm [00:00:40] gonna tell myself 47 times that I'm gonna be abandoned by everybody." Yeah. Right? These are [00:00:45] preconditioned, imprinted programs at a subconscious level because of childhood events that were repeated enough that they built [00:00:50] these neural structures in our [00:00:51] Dr. Taz: brain. [00:00:51] Dr. Taz: Thais Gibson, PhD, is a bestselling author, [00:00:55] counselor, speaker, and one of the leading voices in attachment theory and personal development. [00:01:00] She's the founder of the Gibson Integrated Attachment Theory and co-founder of the Personal [00:01:05] Development School. [00:01:05] Thais Gibson, PhD: When our brain gets imprinted with these fears in childhood, as [00:01:10] an adult, we project them onto everything. [00:01:12] Thais Gibson, PhD: So what happens is somebody [00:01:15] has this imprint from childhood of fearing being abandoned or disliked or excluded, all these very, like, you know, [00:01:20] social fears, and that forms a lot of their conditioning and their subconscious. They're [00:01:25] seeing their whole int- external world through this lens, and then the moment they don't get a [00:01:30] call back or the moment that somebody, you know, isn't texting them enough or didn't immediately ask them on another [00:01:35] date- Yeah [00:01:35] Thais Gibson, PhD: they're going to jump to those conclusions. It dysregulates all their emotions and their [00:01:40] nervous system as a result, and now they're playing out these patterns, and their behaviors follow. And so they'll [00:01:45] usually be individuals who cling a lot. They try to move very fast in relationships. They hold on tight, [00:01:50] and in doing so, they often accidentally don't see people's boundaries and don't [00:01:55] recognize that they're there, and they can accidentally pressure people in relationships and make them sort of pull [00:02:00] away, if anything. [00:02:01] Dr. Taz: Hmm. Thais has dedicated over a decade to [00:02:05] understanding how early childhood experiences shape adult relationships and subconscious [00:02:10] behavior patterns. Please join me in welcoming Thais to the show. [00:02:15] This episode is sponsored by WHOLEplus, a [00:02:20] holistic health platform built around education, personalization, and integrative [00:02:25] care. [00:02:25] Dr. Taz: WHOLEplus blends holistic, integrative, and functional medicine clinics with [00:02:30] learning resources like blogs, YouTube videos, and of course, this podcast, so you're not [00:02:35] just treated, you're informed. The platform also includes holistic health quizzes and a [00:02:40] curated wellness shop, helping you make choices that support your body at the root level.[00:02:45] [00:02:45] Dr. Taz: Whole Plus is holistic healthcare designed for real life. [00:02:50] Visit us at wholeplus.co to learn more about the platform. Again, that's [00:02:55] H-O-L-P-L-U-S dot C-O. All right, I'm super excited about [00:03:00] this next topic because we talk a lot about relationships. I spend a lot of time talking about the [00:03:05] family and how we need to think about health as a family body, not just our individual [00:03:10] body, and so many people get really confused by this. [00:03:13] Dr. Taz: But I think [00:03:15] so much is wound up in our relationships. So Thais, you spent a lot [00:03:20] of time talking about relationships and attachment and what that [00:03:25] means for us. Tell my audience a little bit about your background [00:03:30] and how you even fell into studying and talking a lot about attachment theory. [00:03:35] [00:03:35] Thais Gibson, PhD: Yeah, it's a great question. [00:03:36] Thais Gibson, PhD: I mean, I'll try to make a really long story quite short, but- Okay ... I grew up in a very [00:03:40] turbulent household, definitely was a very sensitive kid, internalized a lot of these [00:03:45] things, a lot of these patterns, and had a lot of challenges in relationships. You know, one day I [00:03:50] was very, you know, wanting to be in a relationship, and then I would flip-flop and feel like I just didn't wanna be in a [00:03:55] relationship at all, and had a lot of sort of ups and downs in relationships, and was [00:04:00] very... [00:04:00] Thais Gibson, PhD: I was the fearful avoidance, so I had an anxious side and an avoidance side, and I sort of pinballed a lot, and I just [00:04:05] always felt like relationships were very hard. Hmm. And I was [00:04:10] in a psychology class one day in university and, and somebody said to me, "Well, your conscious [00:04:15] mind cannot outwill or overpower your subconscious mind." [00:04:18] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:04:18] Thais Gibson, PhD: And [00:04:20] that really hit me for a number of reasons, but one of them being that I had told [00:04:25] myself many times that I was gonna behave a certain way or act a certain way or be more [00:04:30] consistent or not push away so much, and I had told myself many times that I was [00:04:35] going to do certain things, and then found myself unable to follow through.[00:04:40] [00:04:40] Thais Gibson, PhD: And when somebody said, "Well, your conscious mind can't outwill your subconscious mind," I was like, "Well, what, what's that all [00:04:45] about then?" What does that mean exactly? And what I came to find is that your conscious [00:04:50] mind is your logical, analytical thinking mind. It's responsible for roughly 3 to [00:04:55] 5% of our daily beliefs, thoughts, choices, and emotions. [00:04:59] Thais Gibson, PhD: And your [00:05:00] subconscious and unconscious collectively are responsible for 95 to [00:05:05] 97%- [00:05:06] Dr. Taz: Wow ... of our [00:05:07] Thais Gibson, PhD: choices and feelings. And what your subconscious, more than [00:05:10] unconscious, but subconscious in the majority- What it's responsible for is it's the giant warehouse of [00:05:15] all of your conditioning. So it is literally the storage center of the [00:05:20] beliefs you've acquired about yourself over time, about relationships, about people, [00:05:25] about what to expect- Mm [00:05:26] Thais Gibson, PhD: about how to give and receive love. Um, it's the [00:05:30] emotions and the behaviors that often follow suit when these beliefs come up. And [00:05:35] we'll actually, you know, we'll dive into this I'm sure today, but you'll come to see that if we are not aware of [00:05:40] or in charge of our conditioning, especially our belief systems, we're actually not in charge of our actions nearly as much [00:05:45] as we think. [00:05:46] Thais Gibson, PhD: And you'll also come to see that we, [00:05:50] we think a lot about the nervous system and doing things like, oh, breathwork and meditation, and those are great practices, [00:05:55] but they can actually functionally be band-aids if we are [00:06:00] only doing them when we first have our conditioning triggered. So for example, if somebody [00:06:05] grows up and they have a fear of being abandoned, and that fear of being abandoned is activated maybe [00:06:10] because of their attachment patterns that they acquired from childhood, they can say that they're [00:06:15] not gonna get dysregulated or triggered, but they will. [00:06:17] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:06:18] Thais Gibson, PhD: And that belief triggering [00:06:20] them causes them to often go into a state of feeling distress, which then, you know, [00:06:25] emotions have the, the cortisol response and the norepinephrine response, and that then signals to [00:06:30] the, the body essentially, the nervous system, to go into fight or flight or sympathetic nervous system mode. [00:06:34] Thais Gibson, PhD: And a [00:06:35] lot of people are then like, "Oh, let's just breathe through it," or, "Let's just meditate." And it's like, [00:06:40] that's great, we can do other things, even completion cycles and somatic practices to get back [00:06:45] to a centered state again. But then an hour later, if that same belief gets triggered and you [00:06:50] fear abandonment again, then you're gonna go back through the same cycle. [00:06:52] Thais Gibson, PhD: Wow. And so just right, the nervous system [00:06:55] alone isn't quite enough. We actually have to rewire and, and leverage neuroplasticity to change some of those [00:07:00] beliefs. So that was something I really dove into understanding and became really obsessed with the [00:07:05] neuroscience of how we actually retrain our brains and, and change things, and, you know, really trying to understand [00:07:10] where my own conditioning came from in childhood that led to a lot of my emotions, my patterns. [00:07:14] Thais Gibson, PhD: And as I [00:07:15] changed that within myself very deeply, I just couldn't wait to share it with everybody. Oh my God. I was like, [00:07:20] I've, I've gotta share this and put it out there. And so I, I, um, gave a lot of free workshops [00:07:25] for a few years, started a, a client-based practice, um, and worked there [00:07:30] for seven, eight years, and then eventually had a long wait list, put material online, and, um, [00:07:35] that sort of transpired into a lot of the online materials that we have today. [00:07:37] Dr. Taz: What a, what an incredible story. You know, this is so [00:07:40] interesting because I've been hearing and talking to a lot of people about this idea of the [00:07:45] subconscious and how it does drive behavior and can be kind of what blocks [00:07:50] us from what we want or from, like, moving forward. And it sounds like a [00:07:55] lot of it, would you say, is all preset in childhood? [00:07:58] Dr. Taz: Is that where m- is there an age at [00:08:00] which it's sort of preset? Are we coming in with already some stuff? [00:08:05] Or, you know, I'm just, I'm just trying to get a gauge, like is this like a age one through seven type [00:08:10] situation or, or what do you think? [00:08:12] Thais Gibson, PhD: That's an excellent question. So we all obviously come in [00:08:15] with a genetic predisposition. [00:08:16] Thais Gibson, PhD: Mm-hmm. But then we have certain stages in life at [00:08:20] which we are most likely to soak up our deepest conditioning. So a lot of people use the term subconscious and [00:08:25] unconscious interchangeably, but they're quite different. Namely, that, you know, one of the [00:08:30] fundamental differences, the subconscious mind you can, you can actually access information and, and, [00:08:35] um, reflect on information and, and see, for example, oh, maybe you [00:08:40] feel good enough at, at 44 years old-- not good enough at 44 years old. [00:08:44] Thais Gibson, PhD: You can go back and say, [00:08:45] "Oh my gosh, that started at 7. I have this memory. I can gather that information. At seven years old, [00:08:50] XYZ happened." Whereas the unconscious mind, y- we can [00:08:55] usually only access in deep hypnotic states or trance-like states, and unconscious memories we don't [00:09:00] often remember. So for example, somebody may as an adult have an aversion to peanut butter, [00:09:05] and they may not know why, and it could be that at three years old, their older brother [00:09:10] dared them to eat a jar of peanut butter and they got sick to their stomach, and now they have this stored emotional association in [00:09:15] regards to peanut butter, but they can't access it, right? [00:09:17] Thais Gibson, PhD: So our subconscious mind, we can access information from. Our unconscious is the [00:09:20] deepest and earliest conditioning and sort of affects a lot of our autonomic nervous [00:09:25] system and, and fundamental processes that way, whereas our subconscious is more conditioning-based. And [00:09:30] if you look at how we develop our conditioning, the first three years, zero to three years old, [00:09:35] our brains are producing more alpha and even theta brainwaves, which puts us in a state of [00:09:40] hyper-suggestibility. [00:09:40] Thais Gibson, PhD: So in other words, it means that we're deeply absorbing our conditioning. But that often [00:09:45] lives at the unconscious level of mind. Then ages three to eight is our next [00:09:50] most fundamental part of how we absorb conditioning, and that's again because we're producing a lot of alpha [00:09:55] brainwaves during that time, so we're sort of like sponges in our early childhood and, and we absorb a lot of [00:10:00] conditioning there. [00:10:01] Thais Gibson, PhD: So I often refer to our conditioning as coming from childhood as, as a very [00:10:05] fundamental, foundational building piece. But conditioning is always happening. We have [00:10:10] neuroplasticity. Like it doesn't stop because you turn nine. It doesn't stop. Right. You know, it goes for your whole life, [00:10:15] and this is part of why you see, for example, people saying things like, "Oh, you're the sum [00:10:20] of the people you spend the most time around, the five people you spend the most time around," or why you can be in a long-term [00:10:25] marriage or relationship with somebody and take on some of their mannerisms or expressions. [00:10:28] Thais Gibson, PhD: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Because [00:10:30] how conditioning actually takes shape is whatever we're exposed to through repetition and emotion across [00:10:35] time, especially if in a suggestible state, um, that's actually what's firing and wiring the [00:10:40] neural networks in our brain. So there's repeatable ways to actually change our conditioning, and I'm sure we can get into some of that. [00:10:44] Thais Gibson, PhD: But, [00:10:45] um, yeah, we, we fundamentally have the most of our conditioning from childhood in those age [00:10:50] brackets. But of course, conditioning is taking place along the course of our [00:10:53] Dr. Taz: life. Along the way. So [00:10:55] interesting. Now you talk about different attachment styles, right? That there's some different [00:11:00] styles. Can you walk us through some of those and, you know, how could we recognize maybe [00:11:05] which style we're falling into? [00:11:07] Thais Gibson, PhD: Yes. So there are four styles. Okay. Everyone can have [00:11:10] one. And this is some of the most long-standing research that came out of Cambridge University originally, [00:11:15] was traditional attachment theory research. Our body of work really built on this, which was not just understanding your attachment [00:11:20] style, but actually leveraging neuroscience to change what's not working. [00:11:22] Thais Gibson, PhD: Mm-hmm. Um, but what you'll [00:11:25] see is the first attachment style is called the securely attached style. [00:11:28] Dr. Taz: Okay. I think [00:11:29] Thais Gibson, PhD: roughly [00:11:30] 50% of the population, and what's very interesting is secure attachment moves in lockstep with the divorce rate. [00:11:35] So as there are more securely attached people, the divorce rate goes down. [00:11:37] Thais Gibson, PhD: As there are less securely attached people, the divorce rate goes [00:11:40] up, and they're roughly sitting around that 50% mark. Now, [00:11:45] from the securely attached individuals, part of what's really fundamental to their conditioning [00:11:50] is, you know, and one of the reasons why securely attached people report having the longest lasting relationships, but [00:11:55] also report being the most fulfilled in those long-lasting relationships- Mm [00:11:58] Thais Gibson, PhD: which is an important [00:12:00] differentiator. Right. Right. Working with lots of couples, I've seen people that are not, you know, they come in and they're not [00:12:05] very happy, so it does make a big difference. Um, but one of the biggest foundational [00:12:10] pieces that securely attached adults have is they get a lot of what we call [00:12:15] approach-oriented behaviors. [00:12:16] Thais Gibson, PhD: That sounds like a, a small thing, but has a huge impact. Approach-oriented [00:12:20] behaviors from their parents mean the parents are attuned to the kids. They [00:12:25] notice when the child's distressed, and they make an effort to approach and soothe the child. [00:12:29] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:12:29] Thais Gibson, PhD: [00:12:30] And when that is a foundational piece of somebody's childhood, they learn a whole bunch of things through inference. [00:12:34] Thais Gibson, PhD: They learn [00:12:35] my emotions are safe to express. I'm worthy of love on my good days and in my hard [00:12:40] moments. They learn that they can trust, that they can rely on other people, and because [00:12:45] somebody's attuned to them, they learn healthy co-regulation. Mm. And throughout their [00:12:50] childhood, they often see other healthy foundational principles like healthy communication. [00:12:54] Thais Gibson, PhD: They [00:12:55] learn that my needs are, are, you know, worthy of being met, and I can express them. They learn [00:13:00] healthy boundaries, and so as adults, securely attached individuals go in with a [00:13:05] tremendous amount of adaptive behaviors. They go in with all these really healthy adaptive coping [00:13:10] mechanisms to do relationships, hence why they're a lot more successful at them. [00:13:14] Thais Gibson, PhD: Then we have three [00:13:15] insecurely attached styles, and they make up roughly the other 50%. And you can kind of imagine [00:13:20] them as existing along a continuum. At one end of the continuum, and everybody will [00:13:25] know somebody in their life who's like this if it's not them, is the anxious attachment style. [00:13:30] Now, anxiously attached individuals, a lot of their wiring or conditioning from childhood [00:13:35] is that they either have real or perceived abandonment Real [00:13:40] abandonment's obvious. [00:13:40] Thais Gibson, PhD: You have a parent who, you know, you grow up in a fatherless home, a parent leaves at a young [00:13:45] age, um, or God forbid, somebody loses a parent, they pass away. That would obviously [00:13:50] create massive abandonment wounds for somebody. Perceived abandonment is really interesting because when [00:13:55] you look at small T trauma over time, if it's repeated and consistent enough, it actually has a similar [00:14:00] output as a singular big T trauma because of the firing and wiring of those neural networks [00:14:05] across time. [00:14:05] Thais Gibson, PhD: So perceived abandonment looks like, for example, you have parents who are very [00:14:10] loving, but they're constantly working, and so you're always with the grandparents. And so a child learns, okay, love [00:14:15] is there, and then love is taken away, and then love is there, and then love is taken away. [00:14:19] Dr. Taz: Oh, boy. [00:14:20] [00:14:20] Thais Gibson, PhD: And I'm very afraid of that love being taken away, and so they're always [00:14:25] worried and sort of reading between the lines, waiting for this abandonment to happen. [00:14:29] Thais Gibson, PhD: So now we have these [00:14:30] individuals who learn love is a good thing, but it's inconsistent, and I have to hold onto it. [00:14:35] And basically as adults, they become individuals who are trying to always maintain proximity. [00:14:40] And their biggest fears that they acquire because of their childhood are the fear of being [00:14:45] abandoned, alone, excluded, disliked, rejected, unloved. [00:14:48] Thais Gibson, PhD: These are these huge [00:14:50] wounds that they acquire. [00:14:51] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:14:51] Thais Gibson, PhD: And what's really interesting is I always give people this [00:14:55] analogy that our wounds are kind of like a bear in the woods. If you were to go into the woods tomorrow and you [00:15:00] see a bear and you run and you're safe, thank goodness, but then you have to go back into the woods the next [00:15:05] day, well, what does our mind do? [00:15:07] Thais Gibson, PhD: Our mind, the moment the trees move, you're like, "The bear." [00:15:10] We're bracing for the bear. So when our brain gets imprinted with these fears in [00:15:15] childhood, as an adult, we project them onto everything, just like we [00:15:20] would a bear in the woods, or, or we have a negativity bias. We're wired to hang on to negative things more than positive [00:15:25] to protect ourselves from them. [00:15:26] Thais Gibson, PhD: And then our subconscious mind is sort of the lens we see and interact with the world [00:15:30] through. So if you believe that, you know, you felt abandoned in, in childhood, as an [00:15:35] adult, these individuals are constantly waiting for somebody to abandon them. And if somebody doesn't call them back- Of course, [00:15:40] yeah. [00:15:40] Thais Gibson, PhD: Yeah ... text them enough or any of these things, they project that. And as a result- [00:15:45] Their thought patterns follow, their emotions follow. And neuroscience has actually proven every action we [00:15:50] take is based on our emotional state. So even people who think they're really ri- lo- uh, logical, [00:15:55] rational thinkers, they're just making emotionally based decisions at the tipping point and then rationalizing [00:16:00] through logic. [00:16:00] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:16:01] Thais Gibson, PhD: So what happens is somebody has this imprint from childhood of fearing [00:16:05] being abandoned or disliked or excluded, all these very, like, you know, social fears, [00:16:10] and that forms a lot of their conditioning in their subconscious. They're seeing their whole int- [00:16:15] external world through this lens, and then the moment they don't get a call back or the moment that [00:16:20] somebody, you know, isn't texting them enough or didn't immediately ask them on another date, or is a little, you [00:16:25] know, maybe in a long-term marriage is a little bit tired and, and they're a little bit [00:16:29] Thais Gibson, PhD: you're acting a little bit [00:16:30] differently today- Yeah ... they begin to jump to those conclusions. It dysregulates all their [00:16:35] emotions and their nervous system as a result, and now they're playing out these patterns, and their behaviors follow. [00:16:40] And so they'll usually be individuals who cling a lot. They try to move very fast in relationships. [00:16:44] Thais Gibson, PhD: They hold on [00:16:45] tight, and in doing so, they often accidentally don't see people's [00:16:50] boundaries and don't recognize that they're there, and they can accidentally pressure people in relationships and make them sort of [00:16:55] pull away, if anything. Mm. And [00:16:57] Dr. Taz: that's- Okay, and that's anxiety. That's, like, anxiety [00:17:00] attachment. [00:17:01] Dr. Taz: Anxious attachment is what we call that. Anxious attachment. Okay. Got it. All right. [00:17:04] Thais Gibson, PhD: And you ... Have you [00:17:05] seen people like that in your practice? Absolutely. [00:17:07] Dr. Taz: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. For [00:17:10] sure. [00:17:10] Thais Gibson, PhD: So very, very common. So- Yeah ... so, [00:17:12] Dr. Taz: um, do you want me to go into the, the next one? Yeah, let's- Yeah ... I'm ... [00:17:15] Well, here's where I'm going with this. [00:17:16] Dr. Taz: Like, I would love for anyone watching or listening to pay [00:17:20] attention and see if you know somebody who's in one of these attachment [00:17:25] st- styles, because I, I think that Thais and I will eventually get to [00:17:30] how do we retrain some of this, but the first part is recognizing yourself. So which [00:17:35] attachment style, you know, are you? [00:17:37] Dr. Taz: So we've got ... What did y- I'm sorry, what did [00:17:40] you call the first one? The first one was ... [00:17:42] Thais Gibson, PhD: The securely attached individual. Securely [00:17:43] Dr. Taz: attached, which is about [00:17:45] 50% of the population, and those usually do better in [00:17:50] relationships. Then we have the anxious attachment style. And what's the next one? [00:17:54] Thais Gibson, PhD: [00:17:55] For a third one, in many ways it's kind of the opposite of the anxious. [00:17:57] Thais Gibson, PhD: Okay. So they're called dismissive avoidant. [00:18:00] Now, dismissive avoidant attachment styles, they grow up with their [00:18:05] overarching theme as childhood emotional neglect. [00:18:08] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:18:08] Thais Gibson, PhD: While people hear this and they [00:18:10] think of, like, oh, this overt thing where parents are never home, a lot of times it's just [00:18:15] very covert. It's that children grow up in an environment where their emotions are not attuned [00:18:20] to, and if anything, they're diminished, deflected, or shamed. [00:18:23] Thais Gibson, PhD: And think some of the really typical [00:18:25] things we'd see in the world, like, you know, a young boy growing up in an environment and they're ... and he, he cries or he's [00:18:30] upset and the parents say, "Oh my God, don't be a crybaby," and give him a hard time or maybe even [00:18:35] punish him for crying. These types of themes, when they're really predominant across [00:18:40] childhood- Cause a child who in their earlier stages of behavioral development [00:18:45] are actually wired for attunement, they literally need to be attuned to- [00:18:48] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:18:49] Thais Gibson, PhD: That were biologically [00:18:50] wired for that. And when that is con- consistently not there, a child [00:18:55] in their behavioral stages of development, they personalize everything, especially at a young age. They, they don't know how to sit there [00:19:00] and logically think through yet, "Oh, my parents are emotionally unavailable to me." [00:19:03] Thais Gibson, PhD: They instead say, "There [00:19:05] must be something wrong with me that this is happening." So what [00:19:10] this creates for more avoidant, dismissive avoidant individuals is they go, "Oh, [00:19:15] well, I am shameful or defective, and if I'm vulnerable, that's weak." And they often feel [00:19:20] trapped in an environment with their parents where they can't actually get their needs met. [00:19:24] Thais Gibson, PhD: So now we [00:19:25] have these individuals who grew up in their biggest core wounds, their version of the bear in the woods that they project onto [00:19:30] everything, and that lens that they see the world through is these big fears of being trapped, [00:19:35] helpless, uh, defective, being seen as defective or shameful or weak, especially if [00:19:40] they're vulnerable and open. [00:19:41] Thais Gibson, PhD: And they very much feel unsafe in conflict in [00:19:45] relationships, and they tend to pull away and just shut everybody out. So dismissive avoidants [00:19:50] as adults, they often go through this really interesting dynamic where they'll start off dating somebody, getting to [00:19:55] know somebody, and then as soon as things get too real or too vulnerable, in other words, when they actually start to [00:20:00] attach, usually a few months in, their entire nervous system reacts. [00:20:03] Thais Gibson, PhD: All their wounds come up. [00:20:05] Like what- Mm-hmm ... is vulnerability? Oh, it makes me weak, defective. I get trapped here. And so they're [00:20:10] often individuals who push away. Mm-hmm. They cut and run from things that are real. They're fearing [00:20:15] commitment. They'll shut down. They'll stonewall. And even if they do end up in long-term relationships, [00:20:20] they often won't be vulnerable. [00:20:21] Thais Gibson, PhD: Once things are really connected, they kinda take a big step back. [00:20:25] And what's really interesting is they don't really know how to communicate their needs. [00:20:30] They don't really know how to co-regulate, and so they're constantly trying to create distance- Mm ... to kind of [00:20:35] adapt to themselves. And so dismissive avoidants go through these cycles in relationship where they seem [00:20:40] to be there at the beginning, the very early stages, and then they retreat. [00:20:42] Thais Gibson, PhD: They're kind of like a turtle always going into their [00:20:45] shell, and people are left feeling like, "What did I do? Was it my fault? What's going on [00:20:50] here?" Yeah. This relationship and connection itself triggers all of their deepest fears. [00:20:55] [00:20:55] Dr. Taz: If you're listening to this and thinking, "I know something is off in [00:21:00] my body, but I don't know where to start- This is for you. [00:21:04] Dr. Taz: That's [00:21:05] why I created the Circle. The Circle is my private community where I and my team focus [00:21:10] on understanding your body from hormones and stress to metabolic health and [00:21:15] longevity with real-life guidance that you can actually use. This is about [00:21:20] clarity and consistency and support beyond the exam room, and maybe [00:21:25] outside of all the different appointments and experts that you've been running around to. [00:21:29] Dr. Taz: You can [00:21:30] try the Circle with a one-month trial using the promo code PODCAST at [00:21:35] wholeplus.co/circle. Again, that's Whole Plus, [00:21:40] wholeplus.co/circle. All right, let's jump back into the [00:21:45] episode. Is that like ghosting, basically? Like- ... you hear about ghosting all the time [00:21:50] now. Like, people just disappear. Or wait, what was the other one? [00:21:53] Dr. Taz: Love bombing. That was the other one, where [00:21:55] someone will come in and, like, love bomb someone and then just disappear. Are those, like, the dismissive avoidants? [00:22:00] [00:22:00] Thais Gibson, PhD: The most likely to ghost for sure are gonna be dismissive avoidants because- Okay ... [00:22:05] they tend to leave without explanation. [00:22:07] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:22:07] Thais Gibson, PhD: And they don't like to explain 'cause they don't know how to [00:22:10] navigate conflict. [00:22:10] Thais Gibson, PhD: They never got any modeling for healthy- Yeah ... communication. So they just feel, "Oh my gosh, I don't like this [00:22:15] person anymore," or, "I feel, you know, the, these not so great feelings inside of me." Often [00:22:20] they'll blame the other person and even flaw find, um, as a way to keep control subconsciously. [00:22:25] Subconsciously to being in control, to know that, "Oh look, all these flaws, I could be fine without this person. [00:22:28] Thais Gibson, PhD: I don't really need [00:22:30] them." Right. They're scared to have to rely on somebody, 'cause their entire personality and coping from a [00:22:35] conditioning perspective became to become hyper independent. And so they'll be the most likely to ghost, for sure. [00:22:40] Um, you'll see more anxious leaning individuals be a little more likely to love bomb 'cause they come on strong and they wanna move [00:22:45] really fast. [00:22:45] Thais Gibson, PhD: Mm-hmm. Whereas dismissive avoidants are always pumping the brakes. And the really interesting thing [00:22:50] before we get to the last attachment style is that, um, our subconscious [00:22:55] mind is trying to maintain its comfort zone. Okay? It, your subconscious mind [00:23:00] equates familiarity to safety and thus survival. Yeah. [00:23:02] Thais Gibson, PhD: Part of why we feel this, like, sort of natural aversion to [00:23:05] change a lot. And so the irony of all of this is that what's [00:23:10] most familiar to us is actually the way we treat ourselves. So if you look at [00:23:15] an anxious partner, how do they treat themselves? Well, they're so busy people pleasing that they dismiss and [00:23:20] avoid themselves. [00:23:21] Thais Gibson, PhD: They don't like spending time alone. They put their feelings on the back burner 'cause they're people [00:23:25] pleasing all the time. So they are often most attracted to people who are dismissive avoidant, [00:23:30] and so they often choose the avoidant partner. The dismissive avoidant, they're always trying to [00:23:35] keep time to themselves, and create space from people, and, and be independent, and have their own control. [00:23:39] Thais Gibson, PhD: And so what's [00:23:40] so interesting is they're very drawn to people who are also quite clingy to them because [00:23:45] it's their subconscious comfort zone of familiarity. So we have these kind of, you know, patterns playing out at a [00:23:50] subconscious level, and people get really frustrated, and we often will consciously say, [00:23:55] "I want the available person," or, "I want the person who respects my boundaries." [00:23:59] Thais Gibson, PhD: But at the, [00:24:00] at the end of the day, until we actually rewire and clean up the patterns happening subconsciously, we're gonna [00:24:05] keep choosing the same people in a different body because we're choosing from that place [00:24:10] of familiarity. And again, the conscious mind can't outwill the subconscious mind. [00:24:13] Dr. Taz: Oh, so interesting. [00:24:14] Dr. Taz: Okay, [00:24:15] so what's the fourth one? What's the fourth attachment style? [00:24:17] Thais Gibson, PhD: So the fourth one is the fearful avoidant [00:24:20] attachment style. Now they get really interesting- Okay ... conditioning. So the fearful avoidant, [00:24:25] they have both an anxious and an avoidant side to them. Okay? So fearful avoidants grow [00:24:30] up with more big T trauma in the way that we sort of his- historically think of it. [00:24:34] Thais Gibson, PhD: Big [00:24:35] T trauma being that usually they get experiences where love some days is a good thing, and other [00:24:40] days is a terrifying thing. So some really common examples would include things like mom is an [00:24:45] alcoholic. One day Mom's had a few drinks. She's warm and fuzzy. She's in a good mood. She's trying to get [00:24:50] close to you. [00:24:50] Thais Gibson, PhD: She's giving you a hug and a pat on the head, and you're like, "Oh, love and connection is good." [00:24:55] Other days, Mom has had way too much to drink, and she's angry drunk. Mm. [00:25:00] And now she's mean and cruel and really unpredictable. You know, let's say another example could be having [00:25:05] a parent who has narcissistic personality disorder or some sort of pathological issue that they're dealing with, where one day they [00:25:10] love bomb you or they're really nice, another day they're mean and harsh and very critical. [00:25:14] Thais Gibson, PhD: In all of these types [00:25:15] of themes, whether it's tons of fighting in the home growing up, parents in active addiction, [00:25:20] different pathologies that cause parents to be highly unpredictable, a child is getting [00:25:25] the conditioning that says, "Well, you never know what you're gonna get." [00:25:29] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:25:29] Thais Gibson, PhD: You [00:25:30] get the good version or the not so good version. [00:25:32] Thais Gibson, PhD: And what that means is that the anxious attachment [00:25:35] style, they have an attachment strategy. Theirs is like, "Let me always try to maintain proximity, 'cause love is good. I just don't [00:25:40] get enough of it." The dismissive avoidant has an attachment strategy. They say, "I always need to create distance, [00:25:45] 'cause love doesn't really do a lot for me. [00:25:46] Thais Gibson, PhD: I kinda want it, but, like, I'm better off being in control and retaining my freedom, [00:25:50] 'cause my needs don't really get met here." Fearful avoidants grow up going- [00:25:55] I need to learn how to be hypervigilant. I need to learn to read between the lines and always be on high alert. [00:26:00] And so fearful avoidants, I joke, are like the human lie detectors. [00:26:03] Thais Gibson, PhD: They- [00:26:03] Dr. Taz: Hmm ... [00:26:04] Thais Gibson, PhD: they notice every [00:26:05] change in microexpression, in body language, in tone of voice, and they are hyper attuned to other people and [00:26:10] their environments. But they have a lot of wounds. They have a lot of their, their attachment wounds. They have [00:26:15] some of the anxious and the avoidant, so they have a huge fear of being abandoned. [00:26:18] Thais Gibson, PhD: They also have fears of being trapped or controlled or [00:26:20] powerless. And their other wounds, or versions of the bear in the woods, are huge [00:26:25] fears of being betrayed, 'cause they're always waiting for the other shoe to drop and they're always on high alert. And [00:26:30] they have this big unworthiness wound, where they always have to [00:26:32] Thais Gibson, PhD: They usually earned love, um, [00:26:35] as children through caretaking or doing things for other people. Mm. You know, when their mom was [00:26:40] drinking and then somebody, you know, puts mom, tucks her into bed and gives her water, and then gets, you know, love [00:26:45] and care for doing that. So they usually become hyper attuned to other people, but are [00:26:50] always on this high alert. [00:26:51] Thais Gibson, PhD: I had a, a client back in the day when I ran my practice and she said, [00:26:55] "I could tell by the way my mother closed the door when she got home from work if I had to run [00:27:00] to close my bedroom door too or if it was safe to leave it open." [00:27:02] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:27:03] Thais Gibson, PhD: So they notice all of these little [00:27:05] things and it, it's quite common for people. [00:27:06] Thais Gibson, PhD: And so fearful avoidants as adults end up being [00:27:10] individuals who they want love, and they're like, "Come get close, come get close," but they're also scared of it. So as soon as you get [00:27:15] too close, they're like, "Wait, get back. You're too close." Yeah. [00:27:17] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:27:17] Thais Gibson, PhD: And then the and then the person's gotten [00:27:20] back, and then you're like, "Wait, why are you leaving? [00:27:22] Thais Gibson, PhD: Come back." And, and so they, they sort of are hot [00:27:25] and cold. They pinball back and forth. And of course, they, they make for more [00:27:30] volatile partners in relationships. They're kind of a rollercoaster. You never know where they're coming or going. And as I [00:27:35] mentioned, you know, this is actually my attachment style, and, uh, part of why I got into the work that, that I do [00:27:40] and, um, you know, being able to change and rewire it is extremely helpful and [00:27:45] has been enormous for me on my own, uh, personal growth and, and, uh, healing journey. [00:27:49] Thais Gibson, PhD: [00:27:50] And so that's sort of what led me to then moving into private practice and then eventually putting our, our online [00:27:55] programs together. And, uh, I think at this point we've had about 70,000 people come through and, [00:28:00] and take our programs and go through the whole healing journey of how you actually rewire. [00:28:03] Dr. Taz: Ah, [00:28:05] fascinating stuff. Yeah. So I also grew up in a slightly dysfunctional home with a lot [00:28:10] of, like, lack of, what's the right word, [00:28:15] stability in terms of emotions probably. A lot of emotional instability. So I think I'm the [00:28:20] fearful avoidant as well. What was the ... Like, well, let me ask this [00:28:25] question first. Is there a quick and easy way for someone to [00:28:30] identify their attachment style? [00:28:31] Dr. Taz: Like I, we heard the explanation, but is there like [00:28:35] a, a tool that they could use if they're not clear maybe which one of these they're falling into? [00:28:40] [00:28:40] Thais Gibson, PhD: Absolutely. So we have an assessment that we, we take people through. Awesome. Okay. We can put it in the link below, but we, it's a [00:28:45] 28-question assessment people can go through, and it makes it super obvious which your attachment style is, [00:28:50] and it'll tell you your wounds, and your needs, and a lot of the different pillars that are required for healing. [00:28:54] Dr. Taz: [00:28:55] Awesome. Definitely link that. I know a lot of people listening are gonna be like, "Wait, I wanna, I wanna be sure I know which one I [00:29:00] am." And then the follow-up question to that is, so the pairings, 'cause you mentioned it a little bit with the [00:29:05] anxious and the dismissive avoidant. What are some of the most common pairings [00:29:10] that are happening in relationships, and is there a pairing [00:29:15] that maybe has a higher divorce rate than others, out of [00:29:20] curiosity? [00:29:21] Thais Gibson, PhD: Yeah. So obviously the first one is securely attached people often end up with other [00:29:25] securely attached people, because they both have a sub- a subconscious comfort zone of [00:29:30] open communication, and co-regulation, and a healthy approach to things. And so, um, they're most [00:29:35] likely to be paired off together. Um, and then when we look at the others, um, anxious [00:29:40] and avoidants, y- you hardly ever date your attachment style if you're at either end of the continuum. [00:29:44] Thais Gibson, PhD: It's almost [00:29:45] like the same side of a m- th- a magnet. They're gonna repulse each other, so you're not gonna see two dismissive avoidants together, [00:29:50] because nobody really is vulnerable enough to build momentum in the relationship. [00:29:53] Dr. Taz: Mm. And [00:29:53] Thais Gibson, PhD: you're not gonna see two [00:29:55] anxiously attached people together, 'cause they both people please each other and they're both seeking more of that mystery and the [00:30:00] avoidance. [00:30:00] Thais Gibson, PhD: So, so we'll often see anxious and dismissives end up together. [00:30:04] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:30:04] Thais Gibson, PhD: [00:30:05] Fearful avoidance can either end up with other fearful avoidance, or if they tend to lean into one [00:30:10] side of their attachment style, they'll usually choose the opposite. So for example, if somebody's fearful [00:30:15] avoidant but they lean more into always trying to earn their worth and people please, they're dismissing [00:30:20] themselves a little more, so they'll tend to end up with somebody more avoidant, um, other dismissive [00:30:25] avoidants. [00:30:25] Thais Gibson, PhD: And sometimes fearful avoidants report feeling like [00:30:30] dismissive avoidants kept them on their toes enough where they were uncertain, and it's that sort of subconscious comfort zone of [00:30:35] chaos. Um, but that they felt [00:30:40] like dismissive avoidants, um, were safe, because at least they're not volatile [00:30:45] and- Mm ... really unpredictable, which is often what people are trying to run away from. [00:30:48] Thais Gibson, PhD: Yeah. Um, so with this [00:30:50] interesting kind of dynamic there. But then i- if a fearful avoidant is much more avoidant leaning, and they need [00:30:55] way more space, and they're much more independent and introverted, then they may be more likely to be [00:31:00] with somebody who's anxious and always pushing for connection and initiating things. [00:31:04] Thais Gibson, PhD: Um, so [00:31:05] th- because it's on that continuum, you'll usually see people move to sort of compensate for [00:31:10] whatever area that they're leaning into along that continuum. [00:31:12] Dr. Taz: Oh my gosh. And so when you do an assessment, do [00:31:15] both people in the relationship do the assessment to understand, like, their- They're [00:31:20] like, I guess what do you, what do you call it? [00:31:21] Dr. Taz: They're blind spots and they're triggers and, and that type of thing? [00:31:25] [00:31:25] Thais Gibson, PhD: Absolutely. And you can see like clockwork, it's actually wild [00:31:30] how much you'll run into the same predictable road bumps in the relationships, the same types of [00:31:35] cycles, the same types of triggers, the same specific types of arguments. And like, [00:31:40] you know, I teach this stuff a lot in, in our platform, and people will be like, "How do you..." [00:31:43] Thais Gibson, PhD: The people joke, like in the chat- Yeah ... [00:31:45] and the webinar is like, "How do you know this about me? Like, are you stalking me?" Right. 'Cause it's just so predictable [00:31:50] for people. Wow. Like, the same types of cycles. And it's good news because it means that once you identify them, it's very [00:31:55] easy to actually start the rewiring process. [00:31:57] Dr. Taz: And is there one of those three pairings, we know [00:32:00] the securely attached are okay, but is there one of those three pairings that do have a [00:32:05] higher divorce rate or more volatility than the others? G- [00:32:09] Thais Gibson, PhD: [00:32:10] question. So the most volatility in those pairings is two fearful avoidants together- Mm ... 'cause they both have chaos. [00:32:14] Thais Gibson, PhD: [00:32:15] They usually bond quick and deeply. Fearful avoidants are very interesting. They're extremely deep people. [00:32:20] They're not very superficial. They don't like small talk. They don't like surface things. Yeah. They try to get really deep really [00:32:25] fast. But it's almost like two sides of the same coin where there's this tremendous amount of depth, but [00:32:30] fearful avoidants often feel the need to push people away 'cause they feel threatened. [00:32:32] Thais Gibson, PhD: Mm. So, you know, it's not necessarily a super [00:32:35] conscious process where they're like, "Oh, I feel threatened." But they'll feel a lot like y- y- you [00:32:40] can sort of imagine because they have both sides in there, they have multiple core wounds from each side, [00:32:45] that it's just more mines in the minefield, so they'll feel triggered more easily and they'll flip-flop back and [00:32:50] forth a little bit more frequently. [00:32:51] Thais Gibson, PhD: Um, so when you get two of those together, they can be highly [00:32:55] passionate. They can be... Usually they're very, um, a lot of times they're very high achieving people, [00:33:00] um, and put a lot of pressure on themselves and take on a lot from, from other people. [00:33:05] But, um, um, but two of them together, it can just be a little bit more tricky for sure.[00:33:10] [00:33:10] Thais Gibson, PhD: Um, anxious and dismissive avoidants, they tend to burn up a little bit earlier, so they actually have the, the [00:33:15] least succe- the lowest success rate in terms of relationship longevity because they quickly don't [00:33:20] understand each other. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, often what we're most attracted to in the [00:33:25] early stage of relationship is the thing that we resent the most later on. [00:33:27] Thais Gibson, PhD: Mm. For example, [00:33:30] if anybody's ever been in the situation where they're very Type A and they're like, "Oh my gosh, this person I met, they're just so [00:33:35] easygoing," and you love that or initially. It's a trait variety thing. We're wired to, [00:33:40] um- Right ... from a biological perspective to be attracted to people that are different than us. [00:33:43] Thais Gibson, PhD: Right. If somebody smart and someone [00:33:45] strong pairs up together- Right ... when they're trying to survive in the wild, they have a better chance, right? So, so we like it [00:33:50] early, but then unless we learn how to work with it and actually integrate some of that into balance, we resent it [00:33:55] later. So we'll be like, "They're so easygoing," and then, you know, a year and a half in you're like, "They never make plans. [00:33:59] Thais Gibson, PhD: [00:34:00] They're driving me nuts," right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Or you'll be like, "Oh my gosh, they're so assertive. That's so attractive," and [00:34:05] then, you know, a year and a half in you're like, "They never compromise." [00:34:08] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:34:09] Thais Gibson, PhD: Yeah. [00:34:10] Like we resent later, but there's, there's ways around that obviously. Um, but the last thing that I'll just [00:34:15] say to that question is that, um- When I worked in practice, when I work in our [00:34:20] programs, the number one thing I care about is not how intense somebody's [00:34:25] attachment style is, how much trauma they had, what their attachment style pairing is. [00:34:29] Thais Gibson, PhD: I honestly fe- [00:34:30] find all of that to be quite irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. The number one [00:34:35] thing that's the biggest predicting factor is, are both people willing to do the work? [00:34:38] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:34:38] Thais Gibson, PhD: One person who's [00:34:40] highly engaged and wants to, and the other person's like, "I'm not even gonna look at my own patterns and themes," then it's just not [00:34:45] fair, and it's gonna make for a lot of resentment in a relationship. [00:34:47] Thais Gibson, PhD: But if you have both people willing to take the simple steps to [00:34:50] rewire and to change and to communicate differently and to know their needs and share them with each other, [00:34:55] um, then the needle moves in a, in a really big way. [00:34:57] Dr. Taz: So let's talk about the work. I think that's a good segue. [00:35:00] So, you know, if you can start to identify the attachment style [00:35:05] that maybe you personally resonate with or that is in your relationship currently, [00:35:10] and you're like, "Okay, I can recognize this, and I'm willing to step into this [00:35:15] process of rewiring my subconscious," oh my gosh, just me even [00:35:20] saying it, like, what does that look like? [00:35:21] Dr. Taz: Like, what, what is that? Is that, like, a one-year [00:35:25] journey? Is that, like, you know, you need to make time after work? Like, [00:35:30] you know, what does, what does that look like? Where do you start with all of that? Okay, [00:35:33] Thais Gibson, PhD: so [00:35:35] 90 days of rewiring goes a very long way, okay? So I take people through, like, a 90-day boot camp. [00:35:39] Thais Gibson, PhD: And- Okay ... [00:35:40] and it does require daily repeated activities, but there are five pillars that we cover. Okay. And some [00:35:45] of them overlap in their timing, okay? So I think people hear, like, rewiring [00:35:50] and changing our conditioning, and they get intimidated, but I think it's just because there's not enough good tools of people understanding it. [00:35:54] Thais Gibson, PhD: [00:35:55] It's not very difficult. Yeah. So we have five pillars: rewiring your core wounds, we'll talk about each [00:36:00] one in detail, learning your needs, regulating your nervous system. These are very, like, the inward [00:36:05] pillars. And then we have the outward relational pillars, the interpersonal pillars, which are learning to communicate your needs in [00:36:10] healthy ways, because a lot of insecurely attached people communicate in quite dysfunctional ways [00:36:15] until they know. [00:36:16] Thais Gibson, PhD: Um, and the last one is learning healthy boundaries. Mm. And [00:36:20] none of these things can be intellectualized. It can't be, "Oh, I know that I should have boundaries in XYZ place." Right. It's [00:36:25] meant to be conditioned in because as somebody who, you know, at one point in my [00:36:30] own journey struggled with boundaries until I would get frustrated enough, and then I'd set them from a place of anger, [00:36:35] um, you know- You can know that it's time to set a boundary, but if your subconscious [00:36:40] mind believes that, you know, boundaries equal punishment because you got punished for having boundaries as a [00:36:45] child, then your subconscious will block you, and our conscious mind will say, "Set the boundary," and our subconscious will have a wound that [00:36:50] blocks us, and so it's like putting the gas and the brakes at the same time. [00:36:52] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:36:53] Thais Gibson, PhD: And none of this [00:36:55] process is an intellectualized process. This is very much a rewired process. So we [00:37:00] can start with pillar number one- Okay ... which is rewiring your core wounds. So we talked about them by attachment style, [00:37:05] the anxious big fears that are there, bear in the woods, right? Or the fear of being abandoned, alone, [00:37:10] disliked, excluded, rejected, unloved. [00:37:12] Thais Gibson, PhD: Um, and the dismissive avoidants, [00:37:15] theirs are being trapped, helpless, powerless, unsafe, in a conflict, but the really big ones are [00:37:20] weak if they're vulnerable, um, and defective or shameful because of that childhood emotional [00:37:25] neglect. And the fearful avoidant, they have both sides, and a couple of their own. So they have the abandoned is a [00:37:30] big one. [00:37:30] Thais Gibson, PhD: They have a big alone core wound, and it's not the fear of being alone, 'cause they do quite well on their [00:37:35] own. It is the fear that they're always gonna be left [00:37:40] alone at the end of the day holding the bag. Mm. Like, all the stuff's gonna spill onto them. They always have to be the [00:37:45] caretaker, the performer, the fixer. [00:37:47] Thais Gibson, PhD: It's gonna fall on them, and it's up to them alone to [00:37:50] carry, so that's a big one for fearful avoidants. Um, then the fear of being trapped is big. They don't like [00:37:55] being in control. They tend to be quite independent. The fear of being helpless if they rely on people too much, [00:38:00] um, and a big fear of being betrayed- [00:38:03] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm [00:38:03] Dr. Taz: they're [00:38:04] Thais Gibson, PhD: waiting for the other shoe to [00:38:05] drop, and unworthy. So this big, like, I have to super excel just to [00:38:10] be worthy of love at all. Um, so we have a lot of those wounds. So step one, identify your [00:38:15] wounds. Then we have a three-step, um, system for re- rewiring them, and you can actually do multiple wounds at [00:38:20] the same time. [00:38:20] Thais Gibson, PhD: Ideally not more than two or three at, at once, 'cause you have to be able to be very present during [00:38:25] this process. But, um, three steps. Step one, find your wound and its [00:38:30] opposite. Okay? So let's just say, for example, that it's, um, I will be [00:38:35] abandoned. What's the opposite? I will retain connection. I'm worthy of connection.[00:38:40] [00:38:40] Thais Gibson, PhD: I do not believe in affirmations at all. [00:38:43] Dr. Taz: Interesting. [00:38:45] I'll tell you why. So affirmations don't work? [00:38:47] Thais Gibson, PhD: No. No. Um, I'll tell you why. [00:38:50] Affirmations are the conscious mind speaking to the conscious mind, okay? Your conscious mind speaks [00:38:55] language. If I say to you, "Okay, Dr. Taz, whatever you do, do not think of a pink elephant," [00:39:00] y- you, you hear do not, but you probably flashed a pink elephant, right? [00:39:04] Thais Gibson, PhD: Yeah. [00:39:05] And, and so your conscious mind heard do not, but it was too late. Your subconscious flashed a, a pink [00:39:10] elephant. Your subconscious mind speaks in emotions and images. It doesn't hear or, or [00:39:15] recognize language in the same way at all. And so when we use affirmations, [00:39:20] we're using our conscious mind to just reach our conscious mind. [00:39:22] Thais Gibson, PhD: Nobody has core wounds [00:39:25] at a conscious level of mind. Nobody wakes up and says, "Today, I'm gonna tell [00:39:30] myself 47 times that I'm gonna be abandoned by everybody I love." Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. No one does, right? These are [00:39:35] preconditioned, imprinted programs at a subconscious level because of childhood events that were repeated enough that they [00:39:40] built these neural structures in our brain. [00:39:42] Thais Gibson, PhD: And so if we're gonna change, step [00:39:45] one, you find the core wound and its opposite. Step two, we have to speak the language of the subconscious [00:39:50] mind, which is emotions and imagery. So how do we do that? Well, [00:39:55] every single memory we ever have is just a container of emotions and images. [00:40:00] So if somebody says, "Okay, tell me your favorite childhood memory," and you [00:40:05] see the images in your childhood memory of you playing at the beach, you might see the images of the, the [00:40:10] sand, and the ocean, and the red sand bucket that you're making a sandcastle with, [00:40:15] and you might see the images of your, your family members or siblings. [00:40:19] Thais Gibson, PhD: [00:40:20] And we've all seen people when they recall old memories, um, where they [00:40:25] laugh, or if it's a sad memory, they cry, right? And so memories contain emotions. So [00:40:30] we can leverage, and this is where we get into the firing and wiring part, the actual building of these neural networks part. [00:40:35] We can leverage 10 memories of times to support the new idea.[00:40:40] [00:40:40] Thais Gibson, PhD: So, for example, 10 times that you had connection in your relationships instead of [00:40:45] abandonment. Mm-hmm. Or 10 times you were good enough instead of not good enough. Now it's real. It's [00:40:50] evidence-based. It's actually landing at a subconscious level. It's bringing up the emotions, the images, okay? [00:40:55] And we wanna really feel it in our body. [00:40:57] Thais Gibson, PhD: And then step three is we record [00:41:00] ourselves saying them out loud, like ideally recording them into your phone or a device you can listen back, and [00:41:05] we listen back for 21 days in a suggestible state. So [00:41:10] traditional behavioral reprogramming seems to take about 63 days. When you're in a state of [00:41:15] suggestibility, meaning when your brain is producing more alpha and theta brainwaves- Okay? [00:41:19] Thais Gibson, PhD: We're more [00:41:20] suggestible, and it quickens the process. And when we lace a lot of [00:41:25] emotions and images in there, it really speaks and imprints our subconscious mind. And we've seen people, for [00:41:30] example, who, you know, God forbid, but, like, you know, somebody says, "Oh, [00:41:35] reprogramming, it has to take 63 days." S- you see somebody who got into a car accident [00:41:40] yesterday, and the day before- Yeah [00:41:41] Thais Gibson, PhD: they were totally fine getting in a car, and because of how intensely emotional that [00:41:45] one car accident experience was, they get back in the car after it happens and their hands shake, right? So [00:41:50] emotion imprints us very deeply. And so 21 days, you may not even need a full 21 days, but we tell [00:41:55] people stick to it. [00:41:55] Thais Gibson, PhD: So now we have this, this cycle, okay? You got your core wound and its opposite, "I am not good [00:42:00] enough, I am good enough," for example. 10 pieces of evidence of times you did feel good enough. You were a good [00:42:05] friend three days ago when you had that hard conversation. You were a good boss when this thing happened at work.[00:42:10] [00:42:10] Thais Gibson, PhD: You showed up for somebody- So this could be present [00:42:11] Dr. Taz: day, present day things too. It doesn't have to go [00:42:15] back to your childhood memory or anything like that. [00:42:17] Thais Gibson, PhD: Exactly. Okay. It's even more effective if it's more [00:42:20] present. [00:42:20] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:42:21] Thais Gibson, PhD: Um, 'cause they're things we can relate to and feel about. And the more [00:42:25] specific we get, the better, because it elicits more emotion and, and imagery. [00:42:28] Thais Gibson, PhD: So if you say [00:42:30] somebody's working on, "I am unloved," and they say, "My son loves me, my daughter loves me, my mom loves me," [00:42:35] you wanna be like, the really specific images and emotions. So, "I know my daughter loves me [00:42:40] because when I was away for three days and came back, I saw her run to the door and I saw that [00:42:45] smile on her face, and she put her arms out" And you feel the emotion and you see the images, and now it's really [00:42:50] imprinting at a subconscious level, okay? [00:42:52] Thais Gibson, PhD: So once we have those 10 pieces of, of [00:42:55] memories there, you record yourself saying them out loud, you listen back for 21 days. [00:43:00] We are most suggestible in the first hour that we wake up- Mm ... or the last hour before we [00:43:05] go to bed because our brain's producing more alpha and theta brainwaves. And so now we can soak up [00:43:10] and sponge up this conditioning much like our operating state in childhood. [00:43:13] Thais Gibson, PhD: And it takes two to five [00:43:15] minutes a day. Okay. And listening back for... That's it. Yeah. You listen back and feel about it, you [00:43:20] visualize about it, and we got people to actually rank a satisfaction score, like an NPS score, with this [00:43:25] exercise. Now, w- we got people to answer. We took the data from the people who said that they stuck to [00:43:30] it for the full 21 days. [00:43:31] Thais Gibson, PhD: They were present. They weren't distracted. They did it in a suggestible state. "Okay, [00:43:35] what was your response to this exercise?" And people ranked a 99.7% NPS score [00:43:40] at having the actual core wounds no longer being a part of their life and their experience in the same [00:43:45] way. And so it's very powerful. It doesn't take long. [00:43:48] Thais Gibson, PhD: It's one of many different [00:43:50] rewiring exercises, but it's really leveraging the neuroscience of how we build neural networks and how we actually [00:43:55] change. [00:43:55] Dr. Taz: Oh, so fascinating. Now, what if you can't do that hour in the [00:44:00] morning or the hour at night, but you put yourself in a theta state by, I don't know, what you think about, like listening to [00:44:05] theta beats and doing some of that stuff. [00:44:07] Dr. Taz: Does that count? [00:44:08] Thais Gibson, PhD: Great question. So yeah, if in the [00:44:10] first hour before bed or, or the first hour you wake up or last hour before bed, you're busy, [00:44:15] uh, then, um, to be honest, I'm not the biggest fan of binaural beats and things like that. Mm-hmm. I just don't know [00:44:20] how predictable they really are, especially 'cause, like the level of hertz people listen [00:44:25] to, um, also affects our brain wave states, and that's something we don't have control over. [00:44:29] Thais Gibson, PhD: Um, [00:44:30] but, um, what is interesting is there's a lot of other ways to achieve being in that [00:44:35] alpha brain wave state. After intense exercise, especially like high-intensity interval training, when you [00:44:40] take a break and your mind is very still 'cause you're tired, you're usually in an alpha brain wave [00:44:45] state. Um, when you finish meditation or breathwork, we're highly likely to [00:44:50] be in an alpha brain wave state, especially if we meditated or did breathwork for over 10 minutes. [00:44:54] Thais Gibson, PhD: [00:44:55] Um, and interestingly, people are actually in quite a, an [00:45:00] intense alpha state when, um, they're watching television. Really? Ever seen people and you're like, [00:45:05] "Bob, Bob," and you're trying to get Bob's attention and he's right next to you, but he's like staring at the [00:45:10] television screen, and he's so in it? That's actually in a light state of trance. [00:45:14] Thais Gibson, PhD: He's actually in a light [00:45:15] state of trance. That's why he doesn't come to attention with what's happening right in that moment. Hmm. [00:45:20] Because, you know, and it's also part of why you see people pay so much money for Super Bowl commercials [00:45:25] because, [00:45:26] Dr. Taz: because we're actually highly suggestible. Suggestible. Oh my [00:45:30] gosh, interesting. [00:45:31] Dr. Taz: Yeah. Wow. So 21 days, two [00:45:35] to five minutes, moving a core wound to basically its opposite with [00:45:40] 10 positive memories that reaffirm the opposite, [00:45:45] basically, right? So in a relationship- If you're trying to reset the [00:45:50] dynamic between two people, do both people have to do that? [00:45:55] [00:45:55] Thais Gibson, PhD: Ideally, yes. Yeah. We have other pillars. [00:45:57] Thais Gibson, PhD: So, so, you know, there can be one person doing the work, and [00:46:00] it often does change the dynamic of the relationship, but we'll, we'll get into that. Um, i- [00:46:05] because if they're regulated enough without the core wounds, they know their needs and, and they [00:46:10] encourage the other person to communicate their needs. [00:46:11] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:46:12] Thais Gibson, PhD: Nervous system's regulated, they're communicating better. These are other pillars, and they [00:46:15] have healthy boundaries. A lot of times they just become really healthy and lead by example. And if somebody's just willing to [00:46:20] follow suit, they may still get more triggered because of their core wounds, but they'll start communicating [00:46:25] differently. [00:46:25] Thais Gibson, PhD: Mm-hmm. They'll have more needs being met in the relationship. They'll also start to have boundaries. So there, there [00:46:30] can often be one person really digging in, but that's up to the person doing the work to [00:46:35] vet their partner to make sure that they're not carrying the emotional load of everything alone and, and- Yeah [00:46:39] Thais Gibson, PhD: to check [00:46:40] how they're at and if their partner's actually jumping on board and maybe doing the work by following suit rather than by sitting [00:46:45] down and actively doing the work. Um, but that first pillar is [00:46:50] extremely important for relationships because every relationship has what I call trigger cycles, and we'll go into the other pillars [00:46:55] in a second. [00:46:55] Thais Gibson, PhD: But just before we leave this one- Yeah ... um, they have trigger cycles, which is so interesting. You can think [00:47:00] of a, a, an idea of wound behavior, wound behavior. Okay. Every [00:47:05] relationship has this, okay? Until you work through it. And exactly what one of your wounds [00:47:10] are, how you respond or how you behave when it's activated, when it's triggered, [00:47:15] will just so happen to trigger your partner's biggest core wound. [00:47:18] Thais Gibson, PhD: Mm-hmm. And how they behave [00:47:20] will then re-trigger yours. So let's take a really obvious example. Anxious attachment, big abandonment [00:47:25] fear, okay? I know. Partner who's more avoidant, so that person isn't gonna take space. The person takes space, [00:47:30] they may get mean, they're abandoned. They get activated and triggered. [00:47:34] Thais Gibson, PhD: They [00:47:35] cling to cope. That's their behavior, is the wound, abandonment. Behavior, cling. And when [00:47:40] they cling their avoidant partner feels more trapped, their big wound. [00:47:45] And how they behave when they feel triggered is to push away. And now that re-triggers the [00:47:50] abandonment, they cling- Mm. That triggers the, the, "Oh my gosh- " I see [00:47:53] Thais Gibson, PhD: I feel trapped," and they push away. And [00:47:55] often until trigger cycles like this are resolved in relationships, they're usually the very thing [00:48:00] that ends a relationship at the end of the day. Wow. Um, because people just feel like they're [00:48:05] banging their head against the wall, and they get frustrated, and they feel like, "I've had enough." [00:48:07] Thais Gibson, PhD: And so it's really important, it can be [00:48:10] extremely impactful in a short period of time to work through your wounds 'cause it unlocks you and gets you outside of these [00:48:15] cycles that can just make you wanna pull out your hair. [00:48:18] Dr. Taz: Wow. Let's [00:48:20] talk briefly about the other... I think there are three more pillars, right? [00:48:23] Dr. Taz: Is that right? Four more [00:48:25] pillars, yeah. Four more pillars. If you can give us just a blurb on, on each of those. I think the nervous [00:48:30] system regulation, you know, plays into my world big time because we see a [00:48:35] lot of nervous system dysregulation, sometimes for very biological or physical reasons. Yeah.[00:48:40] [00:48:40] Dr. Taz: Sometimes it's just how somebody's wired. But talk a little bit about that one. [00:48:44] Thais Gibson, PhD: [00:48:45] Yeah. So, so that's our third pillar. And, and nervous system regulation is extremely important. All [00:48:50] three insecure attachment styles, they spend much more time in sympathetic nervous system mode. [00:48:55] Um, and, and so what we'll see is they're much more in fight or flight, and that's because they have more core wounds, so they constantly [00:49:00] get more activated about things. [00:49:01] Thais Gibson, PhD: Then when they're more activated about things, they have certain ways of [00:49:05] coping, and of course their, their emotions are not so great, so then they have more cortisol or norepinephrine- [00:49:10] Yeah ... in their distressed state, then that signals their body to brace itself for fight or flight type of, of [00:49:15] activities. [00:49:16] Thais Gibson, PhD: And, um, what's really interesting about this is [00:49:20] that you'll see a lot of people when they go from sympathetic nervous system mode, [00:49:25] when you look at the body of work in polyvagal theory, the work of Dr. Stephen Porges, you'll see that people, [00:49:30] when they spend a lot of time in fight or flight, it's actually ca- So we have sympathetic, and then we have our [00:49:35] window of tolerance or ventral vagal nervous system mode, which is this very healthy middle ground when we feel [00:49:40] open and sociable and energetic in a very clear, healthy way. [00:49:44] Thais Gibson, PhD: And then we have [00:49:45] dorsal vagal shutdown mode, and this is when you s- you sit on the couch and you just [00:49:50] can't get up. Mm. You're, you've had enough. Yeah. And when people spend an inordi- [00:49:55] inordinate amount of time in sympathetic, they often actually end up oscillating [00:50:00] between fight or flight, then your body can't sustain that for long periods of time. [00:50:03] Thais Gibson, PhD: Right. Eventually, when you do get a little bit [00:50:05] of reprieve, you go into dorsal vagal shutdown mode. You can also go there when you're very st- [00:50:10] distressed as well. Um, and then it, it's people who feel like they just can't [00:50:15] do much. Their everything feels tired, uh, exhausting and heavy, and they feel tired [00:50:20] when they wake up and, and it's because of all of this nervous system activity [00:50:25] that ideally we're just getting into our window of tolerance or ventral vagal mode. [00:50:28] Thais Gibson, PhD: So what we help people do is [00:50:30] identify their nervous system patterns, where they're spending the most time, identify the [00:50:35] reasons they're spending the most time there psychologically. Is it because of core wounds? Is it because of unmet needs [00:50:40] or really poor boundaries? Is it because of conflict from painful communication? [00:50:43] Thais Gibson, PhD: We really help them tap in [00:50:45] to rewiring their habits and patterns in these ways. We talked about the core wound pillar, but all the [00:50:50] other pillars get rewired, and then we get people to learn to process their emotions [00:50:55] when they are activated- [00:50:56] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ... to bring them [00:50:57] Thais Gibson, PhD: back into ventral vagal nervous system mode, [00:51:00] because we can change our nervous system state at will. [00:51:02] Thais Gibson, PhD: Um, we rewire the root cause, but [00:51:05] we can do a lot of things that bring us into ventral vagal on a more regular basis. So there's things called [00:51:10] completion cycles, ways of discharging energy when we feel distressed to burn off excess cortisol, a whole bunch of different [00:51:15] things we can do from a nervous system perspective. [00:51:17] Thais Gibson, PhD: Um, and there's so much to say about that pillar. It's a [00:51:20] very deep pillar, but Um, you know, if somebody's just recognizing at a high [00:51:25] level and they don't wanna get into as much nitty-gritty or we don't have as much time to cover so much nitty-gritty, but- I [00:51:29] Dr. Taz: [00:51:30] know. It's so much. So good [00:51:32] Thais Gibson, PhD: If somebody's just, um, trying to [00:51:35] regulate their nervous system on an ongoing basis, they can start with really simple activities like [00:51:40] breathwork, meditation, mindfulness practice, things that are helping you slow down [00:51:45] and get back in your body. [00:51:46] Thais Gibson, PhD: And ideally, you are doing those practices, [00:51:50] um, in that first hour that you wake up or last hour before you go to bed because we're actually [00:51:55] retraining what our nervous system is used to being in, what mode we're used to being in. And [00:52:00] if we learn to do things that keep us in our body and present with our breath and we're more present [00:52:05] in our world, we're more likely to be in parasympathetic nervous system mode or that, that [00:52:10] healthy specific area, ventral vagal. [00:52:12] Thais Gibson, PhD: And that then allows us to be in a [00:52:15] position where we're not so activated. And as you know pr- better than, than anybody, [00:52:20] um, you know, when we're chronically in a dysregulated nervous system state, in fight or flight, I mean, excess [00:52:25] cortisol suppresses the immune system. Right. Right. Or, you know, there's e- more likely to be chronic and [00:52:30] systemic inflammation because- Yeah [00:52:31] Thais Gibson, PhD: we've got access, and so they very much go together. So we really [00:52:35] take people in our programs in rewiring the root causes of why you're always activated, like the core [00:52:40] wounds and the unmet needs and the poor boundaries, and really doing that underlying work, but then we also [00:52:45] get them to practice moving out of sympathetic nervous system with specific activities that you can [00:52:50] do when you are activated, um, or, or upregulating out of dorsal vagal, and also [00:52:55] just having daily practices that will get your nervous system trained to spend more time in ventral vagal [00:53:00] specifically. [00:53:01] Dr. Taz: This is so fascinating. So for couples- [00:53:05] Do you think this is work an individual should do or couples should do together? Like, do you like to target the [00:53:10] couple and the relationship or the individual, I guess is my question. [00:53:13] Thais Gibson, PhD: Yeah, I honestly to be... [00:53:15] So, so I went in thinking, "Well, I'm gonna see couples," 'cause I saw c- couples in my [00:53:20] practice, and I would actually say it's a really big toss-up. [00:53:22] Thais Gibson, PhD: I would say it's probably 70% singles [00:53:25] and 30% couples that come into our programs at this point, because it's really paced out for individuals, but then it [00:53:30] just, the, the tools are just tacked on together for if, if, uh, there's two of you, right? Yeah. So, [00:53:35] so it's really there for, for both sets of people. And, um, ideally couples [00:53:40] are doing it together if they're in a couple, 'cause it just helps really move the needle and deepen the connection [00:53:45] relationship. [00:53:45] Thais Gibson, PhD: Like, one of the big pillars in there is knowing your needs. Yeah. Most people have no idea what their actual [00:53:50] needs are, and they're so different in relationships because we all try to love people as we love, [00:53:55] as we would need love. And so you have a lot of anxious people trying to like constantly validate and reassure their [00:54:00] partner with grandiose compliments and dropping everything and surprising them unexpectedly- Yeah [00:54:04] Thais Gibson, PhD: when [00:54:05] they're in a fight to write them a letter and bring them food and, and people who are avoidant are like, "I just need [00:54:10] space and time and- Yeah ... and space when we're in an argument." And so people often are [00:54:15] speaking different languages in terms of how they give and receive love. And we've heard of love languages, [00:54:20] but it goes way deeper. [00:54:20] Thais Gibson, PhD: Like, needs are much deeper than love languages. And, um, and we miss the mark. [00:54:25] And so we get people in couples to know their needs, um, to learn how to communicate those [00:54:30] things effectively so each other can hear them, to do that repeatedly enough that healthy communication [00:54:35] becomes their new baseline. Um, so people can definitely do it in couples, but they can also do it as [00:54:40] individuals, heal their attachment style, and now they're really prepared going into their next relationship to [00:54:45] be in a more secure relationship 'cause that's how they treat themselves. [00:54:48] Thais Gibson, PhD: And wildly [00:54:50] enough, one of the biggest things I hear all the time is people who are like fearful avoidant or [00:54:55] anxious or dismissive, they'll often say, "Oh, secure people are boring to me." Oh. I'm outward, single, oh [00:55:00] bor- I don't know. And then they do the work and become secure and they're like, "Of course I want a secure person." [00:55:04] Thais Gibson, PhD: Right. [00:55:05] "That feels healthy, that feels connected." Right. Because it's now a new subconscious comfort zone, so it very much [00:55:10] determines what we invest in as adults as [00:55:11] Dr. Taz: well. So interesting. Have you seen couples turn around, [00:55:15] like in terms of- [00:55:16] Thais Gibson, PhD: Oh ... [00:55:16] Dr. Taz: high conflict to now- Oh my gosh, [00:55:19] Thais Gibson, PhD: [00:55:20] yeah. Yeah. When you said it, it sounded like it was a TV show. [00:55:23] Thais Gibson, PhD: I was like, Couples Turnaround, I haven't- [00:55:25] [00:55:26] Dr. Taz: Yeah. That could be a good TV show, but anyhow, so... [00:55:30] [00:55:30] Thais Gibson, PhD: Um, yes, absolutely. I mean, we, we have overall, so, [00:55:35] um, we get people to fill out their score from the core wound cycle, but we actually have, [00:55:40] um, people to fill out their, their satisfaction score and success rate overall, and entire, across our entire [00:55:45] platform, all the... [00:55:45] Thais Gibson, PhD: We have like, um, a 90-day program. What their, um, satisfaction [00:55:50] score is with the program is 99.3%. So we have people who are highly satisfied with their results. [00:55:55] I'll, I'll be very transparent in the fact that we give that to people at the end of their course, so we don't... Like, if people [00:56:00] didn't stick through it, then like- Yeah [00:56:01] Thais Gibson, PhD: one thing, but it's 90 days. The exercises are easy. And, [00:56:05] um, honestly, my favorite people to work with are high-conflict people. Mm. Um, [00:56:10] the, the big, they give you the tough ones. I love that, um, because that's where I came [00:56:15] from. That's how my family system was, and I think there's something, like, meaningful, um, for me about [00:56:20] knowing that that's a solvable problem for people and sort of putting an end to that. [00:56:23] Thais Gibson, PhD: Often high-conflict [00:56:25] people are very big-hearted people, the big feelers, people who love hard, um, but have been through a [00:56:30] lot. And so those patterns play out, and you get to really break those generational cycles that way by [00:56:35] changing the conditioning, which is ultimately what's getting passed down. [00:56:38] Dr. Taz: So [00:56:40] fascinating. [00:56:40] Dr. Taz: Well, I'm definitely gonna check out your platform. I, I wanna learn more. If others are, you know, [00:56:45] wanting to learn more about their attachment style or their relationship style or, you [00:56:50] know, what's at play here, you know, uh, help us connect to you. What's the best way to find you and, and [00:56:55] find your platform? [00:56:56] Thais Gibson, PhD: Yeah. Thank you. So I'm at personaldevelopmentschool.com. [00:57:00] Um, it's very much personal development for your relationships and the subconscious mind. And, um, people actually start [00:57:05] there, and they can take that free quiz. It gives them an in-depth report on their attachment style. You can take [00:57:10] it obviously with your partner. [00:57:11] Thais Gibson, PhD: And, um, and then we go through these 90-day programs to really heal, [00:57:15] to transform, and, um, we try to make it super affordable for everybody so that people can get in there [00:57:20] and do it. Um, and so yeah, I'll, uh... It's at Personal Development School. I'm also on [00:57:25] YouTube, uh, which is Tyese Gibson-Personal Development School, and on [00:57:30] Instagram at The Personal Development School. [00:57:31] Thais Gibson, PhD: And just a huge thank you to you. I, I love your work and, and, um- Oh, [00:57:35] thank you ... really grateful to, to chat today. [00:57:37] Dr. Taz: Oh my gosh, I probably could have talked to you about another [00:57:40] hour about the other pillars and what to identify in all of those pillars, but I wanna be [00:57:45] respectful of your time as well. And so for everyone watching and listening, remember, follow [00:57:50] Tyese and maybe check out her website and her platform, you know, if you're really trying to [00:57:55] get to that next level for yourself and for your relationship. [00:57:58] Dr. Taz: You know, I've said often [00:58:00] in the exam room, and I'm, I'm gonna say it again, I hope I don't offend anybody, but I feel like talk [00:58:05] therapy only really gets you so far. It may be Like having a [00:58:10] best friend listen, but it's not the same as, like, doing the work to [00:58:15] retrain and reset some of the stuff that, that has been, like, molded into you, [00:58:20] maybe 'cause of how you grew up or what you've experienced throughout life. [00:58:22] Dr. Taz: So I love, [00:58:25] you know, that we're having this conversation. And then for me, selfishly too, it's important because when we [00:58:30] have healthy relationships, we have healthy families. And nothing is sadder than [00:58:35] seeing conflict in a family which then translates into all [00:58:40] kinds of issues and symptoms and diagnoses for every member of that family, [00:58:45] right? [00:58:45] Dr. Taz: Whether it's, you know, the woman with anxiety or the child with stomach aches or [00:58:50] somebody with, you know, whatever else it is. So I think it's, it's so important for us to all do the [00:58:55] work to create these healthy family units, to create secure attachment [00:59:00] styles for the next generation as well. So thank you again. [00:59:02] Dr. Taz: That was a long-winded thank you. But thank you again [00:59:05] for- Of course ... joining us today. Of course. I appreciate it. [00:59:07] Thais Gibson, PhD: I loved everything you said. It was beautiful. Thank you so [00:59:10] much for having [00:59:10] Dr. Taz: me. You're welcome. And for everybody else, we post new episodes every week. We hope you like [00:59:15] this one. Don't forget to subscribe, share it with your friends. [00:59:17] Dr. Taz: If you know somebody struggling in their [00:59:20] relationship or within their family, maybe send this to them. It might give [00:59:25] them a starting point. We'll see you next time. Before you go, take a second to [00:59:30] reflect on what stood out for you today. Then, if you can, leave a quick review [00:59:35] wherever you're listening. It really helps other people discover Whole Plus and start their [00:59:40] own healing journey. [00:59:41] Dr. Taz: And don't forget to follow me on Instagram, @drtazmd. I [00:59:45] love hearing how these episodes are supporting you