Latest / Books4Guys / How to Build a Business You Can Actually Sell | Bruce Eckfeldt

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How to Build a Business You Can Actually Sell | Bruce Eckfeldt · Books4Guys

• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: To have you officially now on the Books for Guys podcast after we got to connect a few weeks ago now.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: It may have been even longer than that.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: I've kind of lost track of time this summer.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: As uh it sounds like both of us are running 200 miles an hour and we're just taking it day by day.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: But Bruce, it's an honor, man.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate you taking the time to do this.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thanks for it.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Such a pleasure to be here.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, man, I I want to jump right into this because obviously I've got your book posted on the Bookstore Guys website.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: And for those that don't know it, it's called Springboard, a founder's guide to selling your company with purpose, clarity, and a vision for what's next.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: And you built a company and you exited.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: I did.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: And and I it sounds like you have found something, a part of that's involved with that process that you can now share with others who are going through some of those same amazing opportunities of growth and then the opportunity to exit.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: But let's go back a little bit before that.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: A little bit before your business.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Talk a little bit about just your life in general.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: What got you into business?
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: What did you ultimately decide to build?
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then what ultimately led you to deciding it was time to exit?
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: No, yeah, happy to.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, so I'll go, I'll go, I'll go, I'll go way back, I guess.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: I said I grew up uh in Minnesota.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I as a kid and kind of junior high and high school, I kind of had two interesting interests or two big interests.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: One, I was I was pretty good at sort of sciences, right?
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like math, engineering.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: My my father, I'm the only non-MD PhD in my family, right?
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: So a family full of of science geeks and and I and I certainly gravitated towards that.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think I was strong in those skills, but I also had this very artistic bent.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I was drawing and painting, and I my mother enrolled me in all sorts of like pottery classes when I was young and everything.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I had this ability to both kind of work in hard sciences, but also do a lot of really kind of creative aspects and artistic aspects of my life.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: So when I was kind of figuring out what do I want to do when I grow up, my first joke was that when I my mother would ask me that, said, I want to be an artist and I'm just gonna marry a really rich woman.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, that then I couldn't quite figure out how to play that strategy when I was young.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: But I realized that architecture had this interesting combination of kind of the hard sciences, uh, but had this really kind of creative artistic side of it as well.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I wanted to go into architecture school and I looked at kind of the schools that I had.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: And the other filter I applied is I was some a cross-country skier, I was competitive cross-country skier and biathlete at the time.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so I wanted snow.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: So when you do the Venn diagram of that, it came down to Bozeman, University of Minnesota, and then McGill in Montreal.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I had never been to Montreal, and my father took me up there to kind of go visit the school, and I kind of fell in love with it.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like just the Montreal is a great city, and like if I'm gonna spend a bunch of time anywhere, like I'm out, you know, Montreal, it'll be fun to do it.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I ended up doing two degrees in architecture at McGill University.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then I was doing a lot of computer modeling and animation work.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: So we were one of the first program that had computers in the design lab and stuff.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I got very into design the computer as a design tool.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then I got recruited to work with agencies.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I spent a couple of years as an architect, realized I didn't really like architecture as a profession, got recruited to the agency world in New York, worked with interactive media doing 3D modeling, and then it was digital products and a digital strategy and the business strategy.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I spent about six years in the agency world, and then I founded my own tech company back in 2002 based on something called extreme programming.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: It was an early lean, agile methodology.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and so that got me into tech.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: And we scaled that company, put it on the 500 list a couple of times.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: I sold it back in 2013.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll be honest, like a lot of the book and a lot of the kind of research or or uh kind of drive to write this was just kind of don't make all the mistakes I made in terms of like scaling and exiting a company.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it was fine, it was a lot of fun.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, obviously you get the financial wins, but I think more importantly, it got me uh a chance to kind of step back and what do I want to do?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't, it wasn't enough to say I don't have to ever work, but it was enough to say I've got some space and I've also had some really interesting experience.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I ended up getting hired to be uh basically strategic coach with a couple companies, come in as interim CEO, COO.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I realized what I love to do is come into new situations, figure out what was going on, figure out diagnosing it, figure out where the opportunities were, and then aligning the team around a strategy and helping them with accountability.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so that got me into coaching and and kind of got me into that world.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and then over the years, I worked with a lot of exits and I realized that this is a this is a really untapped space when it comes to education, really educating founders on the process.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot on the kind of finance side and kind of the business side, but not on kind of more the founder side.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: So the whole point of Springboard is to really work with founders.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: And my thesis is if we can help them figure out what they're gonna do next, that drives everything else.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like we can make all the other decisions, but we have to understand what are they gonna do afterwards.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: So that that's kind of the the story as as short as I can do it.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: No, I appreciate that.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I've got a you know, a couple of questions to bounce off of because I've, you know, I I I've interviewed people who have built successful companies or they're currently, you know, CEO, founder, or whatnot.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and a lot of the times, the when you ask people just kind of about their journey, obviously a lot of people tell you you don't get into it thinking about the exit.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: You get into something because you're interested in building something, you've got a passion behind it, you've got a vision.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess my question for you is is when do you think about the exit?
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: How do you know when it's time?
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: And and maybe that's just a question for you personally, more so than the general population of who are builders, but when do you determine it's time to let go?
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's time to sell, you know, when you've put so much time and effort and energy.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I know you talk a little bit about that too.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: You you get rid of something that you've built over so many years, and you're just like, what the heck do I do?
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's that's my whole brand.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's what my life's been built on.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like athletes too.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: They do something and they don't know what to do with their next step.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: And this is kind of part of that, it this lines up with it.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: But how do you determine or how did you determine personally when it was time to hang it up?
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, so there's a couple of questions in there.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna I'm gonna tackle it from a couple different angles.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: I would say strategically, you you want to think about your exit when you start the business, meaning that you want to have some kind of sense of ultimately where do you want to go with it, what kind of goals, where what are you gonna accomplish with it?
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's different than when do you decide to exit, right?
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a different question.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: I one one uh kind of concept I'll use a lot is I always wanted to be, I always want to be, I didn't always want to be, I want to be now.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: Always in an exitable business, right?
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like I want to have a business that is exitable, meaning I want it to have you know value, I want it to have the ability to transact, right?
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want a situation and what we kind of joke, it's like, do you have a business or do you have a job?
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, and I I think most founders end up having jobs, right?
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because they can't really exit their business.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: So some of this is just kind of strategic in terms of what kind of business you build, how do you build it, like what is your connection to business.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, having an exitable business is is always a goal.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's different than the question of when do I exit.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: When do I exit, I always say is when the time is right, right?
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: And that might be very different than you know, for different people.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, so I think for me personally, you know, I probably exited about two or three years late, meaning I kind of reached a peak in terms of my desire, engagement, passion for the business.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I I did not have an excitable business at that point.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: And it really took me to kind of realize like I just I don't have it in me anymore.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: Or it was a combination of I'm fatigued, I don't really see myself engaged in this the way I was.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: And there's other things pulling me.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: And the things that are pulling me, I can't do with the current business.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I realized I needed to create some kind of transition for myself.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I didn't have a real exitable business at the time, right?
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I had to work on it and it took me a couple of years, and then, you know, and then some of this is just luck in terms of buyers that come at you and things like that.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I think that the personal decision is very much about what do you want, what do you want to do next or what's what's the ultimate goal that you have?
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: And does the business serve that?
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: If so, how?
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: And if not, what do we want to do with it?
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really what the book is about is helping people figure out, well, what is what is that thing that you want to do?
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: And fundamentally, I want to create pull, right?
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like I want to create a situation where you're pulled into something bigger, better, more powerful, more impact, not I'm running away from a thing that I'm frustrated with, that you know, is taking up on my time, that I'm drained, right?
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: And that that's usually the problem is a lot of founders approach exits from I can't, I just can't do it anymore.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: And that's just not a great position to be in from an exit point of view.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: What do you see as a differentiator?
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because we're when we're talking your your coaching and your expertise, we're talking companies that are, you know, in the millions of dollars of revenue and and growth.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people, I don't know if they they can wrap their head around, you know, like starting a business, how do they get to five million, ten million, twenty million?
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: What is the difference in individuals who can manage that growth and be successful with it versus the ones who they kind of chip away and they just don't, they're just not able to take the next step in that just large, I won't say enterprise, but just you know, large growth in in business.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: What what's the difference in individual capacity that so I think I'll split kind of the business from the founder and and from the leader.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think from a leader point of view, I I I talk a lot about the transition from founder to CEO.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a series of moves that you need to make and changes of focus that you need to make.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: And the the fundamental challenge is the things that ultimately make you a really great founder often end up making you a really terrible CEO.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not just about adding, it's not just about, oh, I need to learn this and this, I need to do these.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: You actually have to unlearn, or you actually have to consciously choose not to do this anymore.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: And that's probably the hardest transition you need that that people make going through the growth journey.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: And you have founders that can successfully do it.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: You have founders that, you know, kind of do it, and they usually hit ceilings or they hit, you know, inflection points.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: And you have some founders that are like, yeah, I don't want to do that, but I want the company to grow.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: And they hire people like me to figure out, okay, how do I build up the leadership team?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: How do I actually bring in a professional CEO if I want it?
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like they they realize that that's not the role that they want, but they know that that's what the company needs.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so you figure out how to sort of disentangle yourself from kind of owner and founder from CEO leader.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I've seen a lot of really great founders just be really aware of that and make a conscious decision.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: And they've built amazing businesses, but they've built it with teams and and you know, highly successful leaders.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: The the company side, there's a series of inflection points in terms of how you approach the market and your customers and you know, how you do deal with strategy, and and and that's a little bit more complicated, but it there's always these transition and inflection points.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I find there's always this, it's not just about adding, it's actually about what do I take away?
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what do I stop doing to let me get there?
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because I've spent time, obviously, you know, I I have a vision for myself, and I'm sitting there thinking, like, hey, it would be really cool to have a five million, ten million dollar type of company, but I know I'm not there yet.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like I'm learning little things to do, and every it's really cool to look back over six months or a year, and I'm like, wow, I would have never even thought I was here that time ago.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: What does the next three to five years look like?
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then I, you know, I'll follow these guys, Mark Zuckerberg.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: You're like, dude, the guy was a college kid, and all of a sudden, like this behemoth of a company, like, how did he what was his experience like learning what he needed to know to be a good CEO on top of founder?
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just these case studies.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: And some people it's overwhelming to think about that.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: You're just like, I don't know if I could, if I could do that, but there seems to be something there where they do, they learn it.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's a learnable skill, it seems.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure there's an it factor of comfortability to it as well.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: But it's just interesting to follow stories of people who have built these things and it's kind of organically happened and they've been able to successfully uh keep their feet on the ground with accelerated growth.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's a challenge.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's tough, it's tough to say grounded.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: I would say it's it's tough to remember you in that process, right?
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's very easy, as particularly as a founder, to get kind of caught up in the company and your identity gets wrapped up into it, and you kind of lose yourself to some extent.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: I would say it's probably the biggest challenge that I work with as a coach, you know, and helping companies, help helping founders with the exit process is disentangling their identity from the company.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, both from a practical point of view, like it's tough to sell a company that's highly dependent on the founder and just so integrated, the founder's so integrated in the business that if we're gonna sell it and they may or may not be involved afterwards, like any buyer is gonna see that as a risk.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: But for them personally, right?
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like you you mentioned the whole, I I mean, I've I've I would say all founders, you know, somewhere between, you know, they're they're mildly discomforted by the whole idea of exiting to existential crisis, right?
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: There is a transition that happens in that process.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: And if you are not prepared for it and you don't have a strategy and a support system and a vision and you know, the preparedness for it, it can be quite disruptive.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've I've seen founders really go through some of the hard times, you know, depite despite having huge bank balances, that they're personally miserable and quite lost.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: And that it's really tragic.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's interesting.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think and again, I I love that you share that because I think the general public, they see somebody, they have a lot of money and they think like, what why do you have problems?
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, well, it's a little bit different way of thinking, you know, at this stage.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: There's always there's just a new set of problems that come when it with that type of responsibility.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: I would say unfortunately a lot of the problems that come don't get solved with money, right?
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: So you can you I mean, you you can buy lots of therapy, I guess, right?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, they're it's not they're not money problems, right?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: They're identity and purpose and drive.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I the the two things I always joke about is, you know, all all founders, you know, are A, unemployable, right?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: They're not gonna get a good job, right?
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you've been a founder and you've been a successful company, forget it.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: You you are not gonna go work for somebody else.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: And two, you never really want to retire, right?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's not no one no one's gonna go sit on the beach, right?
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like they and and that that is both a blessing and a curse, right?
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because with those two things, I can't go get a job and I've I can't sit around doing nothing.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: And if I don't have a plan, you know, that that's where miseral misery lies, right?
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: Because I uh they just wallow in it.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, have having a real clear plan, having a framework, having a platform that allows you to then step into the next thing and make it big, bigger and better, whether that's another business or a mission or you know, something purpose-driven, having that is really important for founders.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: No, I I could see that.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: Before you built the business that you sold, did you try and build other businesses that just weren't successful, but those helped you build the platform and foundation for the one that you were able to exit?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: Or was that your first and like that was a success?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would say I had been involved in a couple of businesses that had a lot of growth.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like we went from a like a 20-person agency in New York to 1,800 people globally, 18 offices, right?
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like so I had been through several growth scenarios, not as an owner, but as a you know, senior leader.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so that gave me good firsthand kind of knowledge and experience of what that process was like, you know, all the craziness that comes with it, like how do you navigate the drama?
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do you keep teams together, all that stuff?
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's a good underpinnings.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: Be honest, like we started the company, you know, based on a project.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like we had an opportunity to build a project for a particular company, and that led to a second project, that led to a second client, right?
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it kind of snowballed.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I kind of joke, like I didn't, I didn't have any grand design about the company I wanted to build in the beginning.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: It really just kind of happened.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I honestly, I think a lot of companies end up being like that.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, once I got a couple years into it and we're like, oh, okay, wait, we've got you know a couple dozen people, we need to figure out what our strategy is.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: We got to figure out how to grow.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's when I had to step into a real leadership role and start to figuring those things out.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it I fundamentally enjoyed it, right?
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think I had I realized I had some real interest, desire, passion for leadership.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I didn't really have any experience or formal training.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I didn't have a business degree.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I think in the beginning I had a lot of imposter syndrome just around, okay, like, well, should I really have this job?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember accepting the Inc.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: 500 awards for the first time.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I was just like, why am I here?
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like looking around at all these other people, I was like kind of like skirted back to the table.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: And and I, you know, I realized that, you know, the fact is that's most founders, right?
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like, no, no one comes into this with like knowing what to do or completely what to do.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd had to lean on, okay, like I'm I I could figure things out, right?
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm reasonably self-aware, I'm reasonably, you know, good at learning, and I just needed to double down on and then look for support, right?
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: I hired coaches, I realized, oh, there's frameworks for doing strategy.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I see there's management processes here we can put in place.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like I didn't have to build everything myself, but that took a while, right?
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it's something I had to kind of, you know, you know, build the plane as we were flying, you know, kind of situation.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: You answered my my next question.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna ask you just like what were some of the the parts of the process that made you feel uncomfortable to where you had to get out of that comfort zone and learn things.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I was gonna ask specifically, did you have imposter syndrome?
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: Because a lot of founders and CEOs that I I talk to, they all seem to have it, which I think is refreshing for people like me who are who are trying to do things or other people that are are not on that level yet, and to hear and see people that are at the levels we're trying to get to, say, dude, I've I've I still feel it sometimes, you know, depending on what I'm where I'm doing.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: I would say, I mean, that's that's kind of what makes founders founders, right?
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: They're they're willing to kind of play on that edge and they're willing to kind of you know put push push their current kind of comfort and and and skills and capabilities, but but they're also good at learning and figuring that out as they go, right?
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: So while I've certainly had you know imposter syndrome about you know being a CEO of a you know a company like that, I I had a lot of confidence in my I had gone through lots of transition, I had learned new things, like I went from architecture to technology to engineering, like I I had I had figured out how to make transitions well and deal with change well.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that is something that you can lean on, even if you're you're not comfortable in the skill set or the context, like your own kind of capabilities and awareness and stuff is something you lean on in those cases.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: No, and confidence.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm glad you said that too, because I was gonna say that's the other side of it.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: It seems like the best people, even if they have imposter syndrome, they also have this weird and good ability to not really care what other people think.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: They're not really afraid to fail.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: They're confident they'll figure it out.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so while it may be a little uncomfortable, uh, they know they're not worried about getting to the next step, they'll figure it out, like I said.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's uh it's really interesting to see both sides of that and how you can balance it.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: And you need both sides of that to continue progressing and learning and staying curious, which is all part of that journey.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: Bruce, with what you do now, do you foresee this?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm sure this kind of scratches your itch as far as like being in the game still and and coaching people up and being a part of businesses and seeing growth and being a part of that journey.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: Is this something you see yourself doing for the next five, 10, 15 years?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: Or do you think you'll get an itch to try and build something a little bit different, kind of like your previous company?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: I know that's a good question.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: So it's yeah, I've had a couple opportunities come up over the years of going back and uh joining very early stage companies at a senior level and like, oh, do I want do I want to get back in the game, right?
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: Do I want to get back on the field at that level?
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think what I realized is, you know, as much as I love doing that, I have found a certain amount of leverage as a coach and as an advisor that uh, you know, I can work with 10 companies at a time to create, you know, significant value and opportunity and uh you know success that I can only do it once if I've if I'm full-time on a particular business.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: And ultimately what I see is the ability to impact lots of founders and helping them be successful.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that's now kind of my mission in terms of where I see my impact is.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I I've I've kind of shifted into the coaching and advising world, particularly around this founders.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: And my goal now, I mean, I've spent the last decade primarily doing strategic coaching, leadership development inside these companies and with my clients.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: As I move with the book, it's kind of gotten into more community development and pulling together founders that are pre-exit and helping give them the, you know, the tools, the resources, the community, the support that they need to kind of think about these things and ultimately exit.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of my focus now over the next 10 years is gonna be building out the community.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: We have a Springboard community that we're we're building out.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really focused on pre-exit founders and and helping them not just exit, but really think about what the next business is.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, my hope is that I'm working with founders that have exited four, five, six, seven, eight times because we just keep leveling up on what they want to do.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's really cool.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I thought I figured that was probably gonna be your answer just because of so many different things you get to do, and and who knows what else can be created.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're talking about community.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm sure going into this, maybe that wasn't a pillar of of what you were building, but now it is.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: And and who knows what'll in two years, what what another pillar could be created from it.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so, but you do see these these successful founders sometimes.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: They can't help themselves.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: They just like they want the stress of building something.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they've got they've got to jump back into doing something.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: It can be a little addictive.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: I do have to watch some of the founders I work with.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, like, okay, like we need to do this the right way.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we can't just jump because you just need the you need the hit.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: No, so Bruce, just a couple more questions for you.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: And as you, you know, as you built your company and as you work with others, and people lean on you, obviously, for expertise and help.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: Who are some people that you lean on for your personal growth and development?
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have coaches that you work with?
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: Do you read certain books, listen to certain podcasts?
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what is your personal development journey look like today?
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, kind of all.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: those things.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I mean, I think the the key things, like yeah, I'm a kind of voracious, voracious consumer of content, uh, whether it's you know, you know, video or books or news, there's a lot of newsletter.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: I find that a lot, a lot of the stuff is moving so quickly now that by the time if it's in a book, it's already out of date.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm I'm I have a lot of media that I follow and and now with AI, right?
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like I have a lot of tools that I use to summarize a lot of different channels in my view.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I you know I try to pre-digest it as much as I can.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I consume a lot of that.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of the input.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: I attend a lot of conferences, right?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like going meet and meeting people, whether it's on the business side or whether it's various industries that I'm in.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: I have a strong coaches network, right?
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm a scaling up coach, a three-hag metronomics coach, right?
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: I do a lot of actually I'm I'm leaving next week to go up and be in Nova Scotia with a bunch of coaches, right?
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: Those are amazing, right?
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because we get to share stories, you know, what are we doing?
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: What are we learning, tools, techniques?
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: Another big area for me has been men's work.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I've probably about 15 years ago got involved in men's work and both as a participant and a facilitator, and I have a men's group that I meet with monthly now.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: We've been meeting for several years.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: That is hugely impactful.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: We do, you know, weekly updates, we meet once a month, we dig into things, we hot seat, right?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's a chance and you know they know me really well, right?
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: So they can call everything out, right?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like I give my update and they're like, we got to talk about this and this and this.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's so important, right?
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: Because you know, I even though I kind of have a plan and I feel like I know what I'm doing, there's always a blind spot.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: And you need people who are are willing to point those out in loving, caring ways.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: So men's group has a really important whether I was a big EO member and forum group there and whether it's EO or IP or Vistage, you know, having those kind of communities is really important.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: And and then you know just the connecting with folks, right?
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like I I do a lot of this, I do a lot of uh, you know, talking with other thought leaders, other authors, things like that, and I can share experiences, I would find, you know, that that's where I learn.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: I love that because everything you essentially said still comes back to that human connection.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: And you you hear people talk about proximity, being around people that can help you level up, being around people that you can find mentors from and take things away that they've done and then also being a mentor to other people and just kind of it all comes back to being around people as that's kind of the quickest way to growth.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: Even with all this AI and automation, you can you can do some really cool things, but it still takes that human aspect to really get to the level I think you're trying to get to and so I like that you talk about that specifically.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: One of the like one of the things I do as a coach, a lot of my format now is retreats.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll take leadership teams away and I'm doing two things in those retreats just kind of strategically.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: One is I I need them to work together, right?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: So one of my favorite things to do is you know rent a really big house and we bring in private chefs and things like that.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: But because we're living together, like you you create connection.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: You get to know people, right?
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: And you see people wake up in the morning and your team like, you know, it's like the and that is key to building a highly connected team right you need to know each other as people.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: The second thing I do is try to create a certain amount of discomfort, whether it's physical, psychological, social.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: So like I'll put people on the side of mountains with ropes, I'll, you know, get them outdoors doing things, right?
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: Depending on their activity level and things, but it in that discomfort is where we learn.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so you know I'm constantly playing with the social connection and discomfort to create this team performance.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: And you can't do that with virtual right we can't we can't do that on Zoom.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: We can't do that with AI.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: Hell yeah.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: I love that I I I follow a lot of companies who do some of these like team building experiences and they'll go do like a I don't know a tough mutter together.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: You see just people they hate it but they love it at the same time and at the end they've really it it truly does help build connection in a way that just a happy hour just can't build.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: But uh no Bruce one last question for you man I ask everybody that comes on the podcast this question and it's just a more of just a books for guys type of question.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm always curious to know what is a book or two that has meant a lot to you personally and then what is a book that you love to recommend to others.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: So on the recommend I'll start with the recommendation.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I always start with the goal uh Eli Goldratt right I think any any business person, professional person, like that is a a fundamental foundational book around management and process design and understanding systems and how to manage systems.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: It was hugely transformational for me.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: And from there you can go on to like the the machine that changed the world and kind of the Toyota production system, all the kind of lean agile things.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd highly recommend that one.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: Personally like the book the the book that I I try to read every couple years is Alexander Dumont, the Count of Monte Cristo.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: And there's something about Edmund Dantes in that book and what he the struggle he goes through and the whole kind of revenge but then kind of thinking about the revenge there's something for me about what he has to go through.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's cool that you recommended that one because you're actually you're the second person to recommend that book probably within the last month and I can't remember who recommended it the first time but you'll have to connect me to them.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah yeah you're but you're the you're the second person that I've recently had recommend that as a as a reread that they like to reread just like you said.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: So that's really cool.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: But Bruce man thank you again for taking the time to do this.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: I love having these conversations and digging in and just getting inside your head on just the your experiences, what you can share with others.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: And uh now that we've been able to connect a few times now it's gonna be really cool to see the impact that you continue to have and what you continue to build.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're here to support you any way we can and we appreciate you being on the Books for Guys journey as well.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks Chris it's been an absolute pleasure.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks Bruce