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Karin Conroy on Conroy Creative Counsel, AI, and Podcasting · Legal Late Night

• Jared Correia (00:00): Hello everybody. We've got a show that promises to be at least mildly interesting for your listening and watching enjoyment. I'm your host, Jared Correia. I'm the CEO of Red Cave Law Firm Consulting. For the monologue, I'm talking about how lawyers may be particularly well suited to utilize artificial intelligence. In the interview, we've got Karin Conroy, the principal of Conroy Creative Counsel. In the Karin program, we're celebrating Karin coming over to the Legal Broadcasting Company with a quiz focused on other famous but lesser team-ups. Now, let's discuss how and why AI should be an attorney's paradise. (00:44): Clearly, artificial intelligence is a dominant force in modern society. Not only is everyone in their grandma using it, but there's also continuing pressure to build data centers to support its usage. Yes, that's why there is an ongoing national conversation as to whether it makes sense to see drinking water for bandwidth on AI. The whole thing gives new meaning to the term cool down. Of course, the fervor around AI doesn't appear to be cooling down anytime soon and it's almost impossible to avoid using it as a business person because the efficiency advantage it offers. But the question bear is asking about how real humans fit into this feedback loop. Specifically in this case, what value do lawyers continue to bring in a world where AI range supreme and can do a lot of the work that humans have done in the past faster and maybe better? (01:40): The good news and this darkest of timelines is that at least right now, humans retain the top billing in the AI chain of command and there is a whole heck of a lot of value that lawyers can bring the modern world of practice in which use of artificial intelligence is quickly becoming a required tool like the use of the cloud before it. Attorneys, as it turns out, are almost perfectly constructed to prompt and iterate with AI. That's good news. AI chatbots, how humans best communicate with AI in its current version are built on natural language processing. The appeal of artificial intelligence is largely that you can get it to do things simply by writing at it or talking to it, just like you could do with another normal human being, including your staff human beings when you instruct them what to do. Lawyers are masters of rhetoric and rhetorical devices. (02:31): Attorneys are precise and advocate effectively. In fact, a number of lawyers have told me about how intimately they understand the AI thought process because they think in the same way. Lawyers are the humans most like AI so they engage with it better than maybe any other humans. That means that you have the potential to use AI to increase your work volume without losing quality and probably improving quantity taboo. No profession is more ready to use AI as a thinking partner than the legal industry. Now, artificial intelligence also requires oversight in the same way that a brilliant child would. AI is an affirmation engine. It will tell you whatever you want to hear unless you challenge it. Attorneys are skilled at building discourse and addressing various shades of argumentation pro and con. Not only can lawyers take an AI output and iterate with the system in order to generate a more refined and nuanced response using their acquired acumen and experience. (03:34): Attorneys also have an agreed shot of getting to the right answer faster, one shot or a few shot prompting due to their writing skills, meaning they'll burn through fewer tokens in an iterative process. Attorneys using AI can create effective prompts and review them efficiently to mold the correct work product. They are the humans in the loop both at the beginning to ensure that the right data, information, restrictions and instructions enter the chat, but also at the end to professionalize the output result. Savvy lawyers have told me that they can save 80 to 90% of their time on projects using AI. Yes, 80 to 90% while achieving better results in association with the tool. Of course, this means that the attorney is always ultimately on the hook for the work product developed, which is maybe the most important reason lawyers aren't being eliminated from the AI equation anytime soon. (04:27): Some body not something has to be liable for malpractice, right? If you're a lawyer who's AI curious but hasn't yet stepped into the breach, understand that artificial intelligence may be the most perfect application ever built for the profession. Wow, that was pretty rosy for me. Now, if you're a lawyer who's marketing curious, we've got a great guest coming up next. That's Karin Conroy of Conroy Creative Counsel, who's been helping law firms to market and podcasting about the topic. Since podcasting became a thing, she's a real OG. She's up next. (05:08): Well, I've effectively run out of things to say, which is awkward because this is a podcast. I'm going to think deeply about my favorite pancake recipes while the camera rolls in the mic records. No, I'm actually going to fight the urge to talk about pancake recipes, although there are several delightful options. Our next guest knows that the number one rule of podcasting is that you have to say things. So let's bring her on. It's Karin Conroy, the principle of Conroy Creative Counsel. Welcome to the show, Karin. Karin Conroy (05:39): So I like blueberry pancakes. Do you like the savory ones or? Jared Correia (05:45): I have to say the consistency of blueberries bothers me. I'm a big Karin Conroy (05:50): Consistency Jared Correia (05:51): Person when it comes to food. They're too Karin Conroy (05:53): Soft. And here's another thing with blueberries that one of my kids can't stand is that they are not reliable. Some of them are very tart and some of them are kind of smushy. Maybe that's where you're going with it, the consistency issue. I like it. It's like a surprise. You never know. Jared Correia (06:11): I like a good chocolate chip pancake. Karin Conroy (06:14): Oh, okay. So back at the four year old. Jared Correia (06:18): Yeah. I'm basically a four year old with my Karin Conroy (06:20): Food place. Okay. All right. Jared Correia (06:22): I will say if I could give a pro tip on blueberries. Frozen blueberries? You ever do frozen Karin Conroy (06:28): Blueberries? Yes. Jared Correia (06:29): Okay. Karin Conroy (06:29): Oh, there are a thousand bucks. Jared Correia (06:30): Frozen blueberries? Karin Conroy (06:32): Yep. Yeah. Jared Correia (06:32): Tremendous. Karin Conroy (06:34): Yeah. I could Jared Correia (06:34): Eat an entire bag of winemen's Karin Conroy (06:36): Frozen Jared Correia (06:37): Blueberries. Karin Conroy (06:38): There are also dried blueberries at Trader Joe's. Highly recommend. That was a solid toddler snack back in the day. Jared Correia (06:46): So welcome to Blueberry Talk. It's my new podcast. We're all going to- Karin Conroy (06:52): I feel like it's very niche. We are going to find our audience. Jared Correia (06:57): I feel like the blueberry people are going to come out for this. What was the girl in, was it Violet Borgard and Willie Wonka's Chocolate Factory who turns into the Karin Conroy (07:06): Big- Oh my gosh, yes. Blueberry? Yes, 100%. I love quoting Willy Wonka. There's just a plethora of options there. Jared Correia (07:17): What a tremendous movie Willy Wonka is. If I can give a shout out to another podcast that I've talked to Evan about before, have you ever listened to a podcast called What Went Wrong? It's about movies. I Karin Conroy (07:26): Think I've heard of it, but I have not listened to that one. Jared Correia (07:28): Great podcast. They talk about all the weird shit that goes down in the making of movies, and they did an Karin Conroy (07:34): Episode Jared Correia (07:34): About Willy Wonka the other day. Karin Conroy (07:36): Yeah. Jared Correia (07:37): Interesting fact about that movie is that when Gene Wilder comes out and pretends to be crippled and does the flip, that was completely a Gene Wilder thing. That wasn't the script he did that on his own. I Karin Conroy (07:49): Love that. Jared Correia (07:50): Now people are not going to believe this, but this is the first time we've ever spoken. Karin Conroy (07:53): I know. Can you confirm that? It's really weird. And I can confirm, but I feel like maybe there's some time over the last bunch of decades that maybe we were in the same room. Jared Correia (08:06): Punch sounds like a lot. More than one. I wasn't born in the 1930s. Karin Conroy (08:13): Are you sure? Jared Correia (08:16): My interests lie. Maybe I was. Yeah. I feel like there has to have been a, I don't know, ABA tech show. Karin Conroy (08:26): We're OG lawyerist people. Back when lawyers was an entirely different thing. When it was Jared Correia (08:31): Like a website with product stuff. Karin Conroy (08:34): Well, yeah and contributors. And we all just wrote and it was run by entirely different people and that has had its life journey and changes. It was a whole different thing. But I started writing laws. Parallel lives. I feel like largely. I was just saying to Evan because I started writing on Lawyerist at the end of 2009. And so then I started in 2010, I started that Best Law Firm website contest. Wait, you started that? Jared Correia (09:09): I didn't know that. Karin Conroy (09:10): Yes, I did. I want to say this to everyone. I showed it. And I actually have had- Did Jared Correia (09:15): You get credit for that? I had no idea. Karin Conroy (09:17): They do give me credit for it. Okay. But I was on a recent podcast for lawyerists and they talked about how 15 years of the contest and I started it and whatever, but somehow it doesn't. Is Jared Correia (09:32): It still ongoing or no? Karin Conroy (09:34): It is. It is. It is by far and away the highest trafficked thing that has pulled in the traffic. At one point, I don't know if you were there, but Sam was paying us based on the traffic of our posts. Were you there during that era? No. And he had to stop that because he's like, Karin? You're making too much. I was just paying you for that one. Yeah. And then I did it every year and so then it would just kind of refresh the ... And I was like, listen. Jared Correia (10:04): So that's still ongoing, so people should check that out. So how's that work? Do you take nominations? Karin Conroy (10:12): Do people self-nominate? You do. You self-nominate. At one point they didn't allow you to do that. You had to get your friends to nominate you for you, and I'm no part of it anymore. Just from time to time, they'll say- It still exists. "Hey, Jared Correia (10:28): Thanks." I have similar relationships like the Lunch Hour League Marketing podcast. I started that Karin Conroy (10:34): One Jared Correia (10:34): Back in the day and gave it up. Karin Conroy (10:36): Nice. Jared Correia (10:36): We Karin Conroy (10:37): All move on. Well, some of us. Jared Correia (10:39): Let me ask you this. So you are in the marketing space, Karin Conroy (10:44): You Jared Correia (10:45): Love alliteration clearly. Karin Conroy (10:47): I do with seeds. Jared Correia (10:49): So how did you get into marketing in the first place? Karin Conroy (10:56): Yeah, it's kind of a long journey. Jared Correia (10:58): Okay. Karin Conroy (10:58): Well, Jared Correia (10:59): Explore the studio space. Feel free. Karin Conroy (11:01): All right. I was living in this beach town in Laguna Beach. I lived in this tiny little studio right by if anybody's been to Laguna Beach, like the main beach. I walked into town and worked at an internet cafe. It's a very artistic, funky little town. And the next town north is Newport Beach, which is the opposite. It's very in your face, money, whatever. But Laguna is like everybody walks around in flip flops and shorts and you would never know the wealthy people. They would come rolling into this internet cafe checking their email and they would ask me like, "How do I check my email? How do I check my Yahoo net scheme?" Because we didn't have phones. So let's go back. Warren Buffet's like, Jared Correia (11:50): "How do I log into my Karin Conroy (11:52): AOL Jared Correia (11:52): Account?" Karin Conroy (11:53): 100%. It is that level of guys that are flying the private jets and whatever, but they're flopping around. They don't know how to check their email and some of them don't know how to type, literally. And so I would sit down and help them and whatever. And so then these websites started and this was a whole new world. This is around Jared Correia (12:17): Like 04, 05-ish. Karin Conroy (12:19): This was before that. It was like 99. Before Jared Correia (12:21): 9:00. Karin Conroy (12:22): Okay. (12:23): Oh wow. Okay. Yeah. 99, 2000. Long story short. Well, no, it's not going to be short. So long story long. So I started building websites and this was like the time of the Yahoo page and like Ask Jeeves and Netscape, Napster. I was listening, downloading Napster on one computer over on the other computer. Limewire? Yes. Limewire was after Napster. This was before the whole Napster fallout. This go farther back, farther back, farther back. And so people would do these personal sites where they had like the spinning hamsters and it was a whole- Those were the days. So I decided that I was going to actually ... So I had already done my undergrad. I decided I was going to actually get a thing behind this and go back to school. So I did a design degree and this is where I think my kind of point of differentiation and my core kind of approach to all of this started is in design. (13:35): I was just following like, "Hey, I really enjoy this, but what the part I enjoy is the look of it and making it look really nice." And the tech part, whatever, like I can do that and I'm smart and I can use that side of my brain, but I want to make it look nice and then I want to figure out like, what does that mean? How do I do that? And so I did my first degree, which is at UC Irvine and then did that for a while and then I eventually went back and got my MBA. And so then I was like doing the business side of it and building that side of it. So basically the middle part of that story is that internet cafe went under. I started kind of freelancing. I took the majority of all those clients just on my own freelancing. Jared Correia (14:29): Not too far. So did you ever end up working for anybody or did you go right from freelancing to starting Karin Conroy (14:35): Your own company? Yes. No, I worked for Century 21. I was their director of marketing. Oh, Jared Correia (14:40): The real estate Karin Conroy (14:41): Company. The real estate company. Yeah. Jared Correia (14:43): Gotcha. Karin Conroy (14:44): So I had whole teams of people and that was while I was getting my MBA and I was also teaching design and marketing classes at the same time. Gotcha. So Photoshop, all that stuff. So I was doing like a whole lot of stuff at that time and then we had the first recession and that's when I really started. Jared Correia (15:06): Good times. Karin Conroy (15:08): Yeah. But that was when I really started focusing on legal stuff because I had done my MBA. I thought I was going to get into consulting. In my mind the plan was I'm going to go make a ton of money being a consultant for ... And so my original company name was Conroy Consults and then I switched it at some point. You Jared Correia (15:33): Were like not enough Cs. We need like one more C. Exactly. Karin Conroy (15:38): To make this Jared Correia (15:39): Work. Karin Conroy (15:39): Exactly. And so then it became Conroy Creative Counsel. Jared Correia (15:43): That's cool. Yeah. It Karin Conroy (15:45): Is Jared Correia (15:45): A cool company name though. I like it. Karin Conroy (15:47): That's right. I mean, Jared Correia (15:47): I can see how it appeals to lawyers too, like the brand Karin Conroy (15:50): Newspaper. Well, it's going to be Creative Counsel and that was already taken. And then when I was going through that name change, I really felt like my face and name were a huge part of the whole existence of it. And so I wanted to keep Conroy on there. Jared Correia (16:09): I'd like to see an internet store where you can maybe expound on the alliteration for their like Conroy Creative Console Corn Chips or something like that. Karin Conroy (16:17): Well, or the podcast, which is Counsel Cast, which is another couple Cs. Jared Correia (16:22): Okay. So yes. So let's talk about that because you launched a podcast that was not your first podcast, right? You had a podcast with other people, co-hosts. Karin Conroy (16:32): Whoa. You have done your research. Yes. This goes way back. In 09. Yes. Okay. So I graduated from my MBA in 09 and two of my best friends and we decided, like we had this closing residential thing where we're all like, "Oh, we're going to keep in touch." And we decided to start a podcast. This was way before podcasts were a thing. Jared Correia (16:55): Right. 09 was, that's when I started podcasting too. I Karin Conroy (16:59): Remember- But nobody was doing it. Jared Correia (17:01): Right. I remember I told my mom, I'm starting a podcast and she's like, "What is a Karin Conroy (17:05): Podcast?" What is that? Same. Yes. I did the same thing to my parents and they were like, I'm like, "It's a radio show." And they're like, "Okay." Remember when you used to Jared Correia (17:14): Listen to Orson Wells on the radio Karin Conroy (17:17): And it was like this size of an ottoman. Jared Correia (17:22): Right. So that was early days, honestly. Karin Conroy (17:25): Super early. You guys did Jared Correia (17:26): That on your own? Karin Conroy (17:28): We did. And it was just for fun. And they would physically come to my house. I would cook dinner. We had mics on my kitchen table and it was amazing. And we just reviewed business books. And these guys, it was very not dissimilar from this show because we would sit around and drink and just talk so much shit about these business books and had the best times. And we were getting all these comments. It was so fun. Business books Jared Correia (18:01): Are fucking terrible. Yeah. Karin Conroy (18:05): But I would sit there and I'd be laughing and the comments were always like, "Why does the girl cackle so much?" So then it just made me laugh harder. Jared Correia (18:15): I mean, I don't know. You put yourself out there. There's always going to be haters, whatever. Karin Conroy (18:19): That's exactly it. That's exactly Jared Correia (18:22): It. That's a cool idea for a show. So were you freelancing at that point or did you have Karin Conroy (18:26): A business? Jared Correia (18:27): Yes. So Karin Conroy (18:28): You could use this- I was at Century 21. Jared Correia (18:30): Okay. Karin Conroy (18:31): Yeah. So Jared Correia (18:31): You Karin Conroy (18:31): Weren't actually Jared Correia (18:31): Taking active clients at that point for yourself? Karin Conroy (18:35): I was. I was doing stuff kind of on the side, but this was entirely for fun.This was not like we're trying to ... At some point we all talked about like, we should write a book or something, but it was literally like we love getting together and having dinner and sitting around and having fun. And I love reading. I read a lot, a lot. And so we would just tear these books apart. We had this diagram. We had an index where we would rate the books and it was on quality and then we had like drink things that we would ... It was very nerdy, but we had so much fun. Well, Jared Correia (19:16): You're reading business books. So did the star rating system only go up to two? Karin Conroy (19:22): There are some good business books. Jared Correia (19:26): I have a thing about ... I hate business books so much. I Karin Conroy (19:29): Won't read them. I feel like we could have a moment talking about business books because there's some really good ones out there and there are a lot of crap. I Jared Correia (19:37): Know that people love business books. So can we take a small detour and tell me business books that you think are good? Karin Conroy (19:44): I love Malcolm Gladwell. I absolutely think that ... And the reason his are so good is because his mother was an English teacher and so he knows how to write and it's not just like this and it's not woo. I do not like the business books that are like, let me tell you about our journey, let's talk about mindset, whatever. I want to talk about actual data and things that are super interesting and stories that you could talk about. So our podcast was called Cocktail Party Statement because our marketing professor in business school at the end of every class, so we were doing the fully employed program where we were working all day and then going to class at night. And so at the end of every night there would oftentimes be these cocktail parties that we would go to because this is what you do in business school and he would say, okay, there's a lot of drinking. (20:35): You got to make it through. So he would say at the end of every class, "So if you're going to a cocktail party tonight, what's your cocktail party statement?" And he would go around the room and call people out and you had to be ready. And so the whole time we're sitting there in every class, I'm sitting there thinking, "Okay, what's my cocktail party statement about whatever we're talking about tonight?" And we would be talking about a case study or whatever. And so that was how we got the name of our book and that's the same idea with Malcolm Gladwell stuff where he tells these stories and he talks about the difference in the way ... There's outliers, there's a bunch of other ones, but the difference that it makes to learn math as an Asian person versus a Western person and the way that their language structure works in the way that they talk about math as opposed to the way ours works and like he kind of goes through the whole story and it's stuff like that where I'm like, "Oh, that is so cool. (21:35): And I want to tell somebody about that as opposed to just like, let's talk about leadership and kind of crap." Jared Correia (21:43): Goals, leadership. Karin Conroy (21:45): No, no. This is Jared Correia (21:46): Why I only read 18th century British fiction. Karin Conroy (21:49): I do love historical fiction, but it has to have a female twist on it because that pulls me in. Yeah. Jared Correia (21:55): That's cool. So you eventually leave the friend show, you've got your company and you have this solo hosted show. Karin Conroy (22:08): Yes. Jared Correia (22:09): What made you pull out of the other show? Karin Conroy (22:14): So one of my friends died. Jared Correia (22:15): Oh God, Karin Conroy (22:17): That's Jared Correia (22:17): Terrible. Karin Conroy (22:18): It is. It was awful. He got this ... So a combination. He died, but we also all started having kids. Yeah, that would do it. And so it affected ... So I was still on board. I will say if the two of them were sitting here today, I would tell them, "Listen, I had a baby upstairs and I'm like running Jared Correia (22:40): Downstairs." I think the show won awards, right? This was Karin Conroy (22:43): Like a real kid. It was wedding nominated. (22:46): So my friend who passed away was Aaron Norris and he is this genius in PR and the three of us all did kind of a marketing focused NBA. And so he was always out there looking for awards and he's like, "If we're going to do this, we're going to do it well." And so he got us a whole bunch of these communicator awards and then he got us nominated for a webby and this was also kind of when the webbies were not as big as they are now. So yeah, we got nominated for a webby and we were up against NPR. That's crazy. We did not win. I will say that now, but like are you kidding me? Jared Correia (23:25): Still nominated. Karin Conroy (23:26): Yeah, totally. It's amazing. Paul Fiction Jared Correia (23:28): Didn't win best pictures. So you're a good company. Karin Conroy (23:31): Thank you. Thank you. That makes me feel a lot better. But yeah, it was Webby nominated, but honestly it was seriously just for fun. But it was like such a cool, fun moment in all of our lives and we all were reading more and we had more to talk about and then we got together and it was one of these things that we looked back on at his funeral and everything else where it was like, I am so glad that we put a structure around it to force ourselves to get together and we just absolutely loved it. It was amazing. That's great that you had that Jared Correia (24:01): Time together. Karin Conroy (24:02): Yeah. So my podcast now, I have a book review section and it's a nod to that. Jared Correia (24:07): Oh, cool. Okay. So the podcast you have now, it's a lot different doing a solo thing. Karin Conroy (24:15): Yes. Jared Correia (24:16): Yes. So what was that transition like for you? Karin Conroy (24:22): So I am very much, when it comes to like taking on a new project, I'm very logistical analytical. I kind of turn off the creative side because I know the creative side, that is the easy part for me and I need to know number one, is this something I can legitimately be consistent with and do it really well? And I'm not going to sit around. And I saw how long it took for us to get traction on our fun podcast. And if I'm doing this for business purposes, I don't have the patience for that. So how can I really make a takeoff, do it really well and make it so that I can continue doing it, like that this is a part of my kind of weekly process that is realistic. So to be honest, there was a lot of it that was easier than trying to schedule time to physically get together between three people and like have dinner and whatever. (25:19): That was taking us forever. That's a lot effort. Yeah. And especially once we all started having kids and all that. So we were trying to kind of do the online version. It just did not, it was not the same. It didn't have the same feel and then Aaron got sick. So that part just kind of fell apart. But I looked at that and I was like, okay, if I'm going to do this, it's just me and then scheduling with my guests and I can make that much more systematic and that became easier. So then I just created these amazing systems. I did find a podcast producer where I was like, "I am not going to edit every show. I need to be done well." Yeah. And that's just, I know that that will be a deal breaker. I'm just not going to sit and ... And then I originally was on Legal Talk Network and I used that to really launch and to kind of overcome the impatience of the growth part of it. (26:21): That Jared Correia (26:21): Makes Karin Conroy (26:22): Sense. Those were the main hurdles when I was looking to set it up that I was like, "Okay, I need a team. I need people to kind of help me make this happen. I need it to be a minimal commitment on my side. And then if I just need to show up and talk, I've got that. That's not a problem for me. Jared Correia (26:38): " Yeah, I think that's how a lot of people look at it and do the podcast thing right. So you have this show and like some marketing podcasts I'm like, "This is just terrible horse shit." Karin Conroy (26:52): Just Jared Correia (26:52): Like surface level bullshit that everyone Karin Conroy (26:55): Knows, Jared Correia (26:55): But your stuff is deeper than that and Karin Conroy (26:59): You Jared Correia (26:59): Cover like real topics and get into it. So part of that is the guests, right? How do you go about finding guests who are knowledgeable enough to talk about that stuff? Karin Conroy (27:12): It's a process and I will say in the beginning actually the beginning I had a handful of people in mind. I spent a year guest podcasting on other podcasts and it wasn't with the goal of like, I'm going to do sort of competitive research, but that's what it ended up being. And then partway through that year I was on Steve Fretson's website podcast. We Jared Correia (27:38): Got a Karin Conroy (27:39): Freston Jared Correia (27:39): Shout out tonight. Karin Conroy (27:41): Link below. Subscribe like. Yes. Exciting. And I think I was on More Than Once and after when we'd stopped recording and we're chit chatting and whatever, I never say chit chat. I don't know where that came from. Jared Correia (27:59): I feel like we need to bring it back. It's in some of those business books you've read, I'm sure. Karin Conroy (28:05): Right. Malcolm Gladwell probably says chit chat. Jared Correia (28:07): He's probably got a chapter on chitchat and one Karin Conroy (28:10): Of those. Chit chat. The value of the chit chat. Fretson and I were chit chatting and he's like, "You should really have a podcast." I'm like, "Ugh, it's a lot of work. This is so much easier. I'll just show up on your podcast and whatever." And he says, and this is years ago. So this is my fifth year of my podcast. This is before that. He's like, "This is my greatest source of leads, Barna." Jared Correia (28:38): Yeah. Karin Conroy (28:39): And I was like, "What?" Jared Correia (28:41): Well, I feel like that's what people ... I think everybody's like, "Oh, I'm going to be a podcaster and I got to be Mr. Beast to make that. " I'm mixing genres, I know. I got to be Mr. Beast to make that work. But really, you just need a dedicated audience of people who are going to refer you and become parts. Karin Conroy (28:56): You need to know who you're talking to. Yeah. Yeah. And that's where I think people get it wrong. They feel like, okay, I'm going to look at Brene Brown, Mr. Beast. I'm going to look at these big guys and I'm going to pretend to be them. And it's like, no, no, no, no. That's where it's all wrong. So I had my podcast producer, he name is Simona Constantini. She's amazing. She's in Canada because I love Canadians. I mean, Jared Correia (29:19): Really? Who doesn't? Karin Conroy (29:21): Seriously, they're the best. Jared Correia (29:23): Name Karin Conroy (29:23): A Jared Correia (29:23): Shitty Canadian. Go. Karin Conroy (29:25): No, it's not possible. Jared Correia (29:25): You can't do it. Karin Conroy (29:26): No. You got your Jared Correia (29:29): Producer. Karin Conroy (29:30): Yeah. So I find her and I'm looking for a producer and I land on her site and she's got some kind of good sort of boutique vibes, which that's what I'm looking for, like someone who I know is going to handle it, but her website is hacked and I can see it's like some Ukrainian flag, like it's bad hacked and I'm trying to contact her and it's not working, but I had the This gut feeling about her, meanwhile, I'm talking to these other people and I talked to this guy in England and he was super arrogant and he's like, I was going to do a Russian accent for some reason. I don't know why we do that. That's Jared Correia (30:13): Why we fucking separated from them. That shit right there. Exactly. Karin Conroy (30:19): Exactly. The arrogance. Yeah. Seriously. So you're back to your Jared Correia (30:24): Canadian producer Karin Conroy (30:25): With her hats website. I've separated from the English in more than one way. Oh, Jared Correia (30:29): Good for you. You've done it Karin Conroy (30:30): Twice. Jared Correia (30:31): Congratulations. Karin Conroy (30:32): So I'm talking to this English guy and he's saying, I knew instantly, this is not my guy, but he's telling me, "Okay, so what platform are you going to use for this podcast?" And I was like, "I think we're going to just use Zoom because this is the majority of the podcast I've been on. At this time we're using Zoom." And he's like, "Oh no, no. Yo have to use Riverside." And this was way before Riverside was a thing. So I'm like, thank you very much for that info. I will take that and run with it and I will never talk to you again. So I reach out to Simona and I'm like, "Hey, by the way, your website is hacked." Jared Correia (31:09): Unless you're involved in the- Unless you're involved in Ukraine in some way, which Karin Conroy (31:14): Maybe you are. Jared Correia (31:15): I don't know. Karin Conroy (31:15): Yeah. Well, maybe you're trying to get into my email and my financial, but your picture looks real. And so I help her clean up her website. And first of all, she's like, "Who are you? " Because your website is hacked in an email that usually doesn't even make it through to the inbox. I sound suss. And I'm like, I have a marketing company and your website's hacked and by the way, will you produce my podcast? And she's also suss about me. And so we kind of come to this meeting and I'm like, I feel like you're my person, but also you need to clean up your website. And it's this weird conversation where within five minutes, I was probably less than five minutes, within a minute or two, both of us were like, "This is it. " And at the time, she wasn't even sure if podcasting was going to be her thing and it ended up she is now everywhere. (32:14): Her name is all over. She speaks for podcasting. This is like her thing. So once again- That's a business Jared Correia (32:19): Book from hacked website to podcast producer extraordinaire. Karin Conroy (32:23): To podcasting. Random house. So Jared Correia (32:25): You're Karin Conroy (32:25): Listening. Influencer. Right. Yes. Jared Correia (32:30): That's cool. What a great Karin Conroy (32:31): Story. Yeah. So she's amazing. And Jared Correia (32:33): You're still working together, I'm assuming at this Karin Conroy (32:34): Point? We are. Yeah. What was the question? I don't even know how ... Jared Correia (32:40): We don't really do questions. We just do conversations here. I got one last question for you before we move into the next segment, which is podcasting was an audio form to start Karin Conroy (32:52): With. Jared Correia (32:52): And Karin Conroy (32:53): I had Jared Correia (32:53): Someone who contacted me the other day and they're like, "I want to start an audio podcast." And I was basically like, "Don't even bother." Karin Conroy (32:57): No. Jared Correia (32:59): So yeah, you want to talk a litle bit about that to finish things Karin Conroy (33:01): Out? (33:02): Yes. So originally, and this also goes back to my friend Aaron, who it was always way, way ahead of things. And the third friend, there's three of us, me, Aaron, and my friend Phil that started the cocktail party statement. And me and Phil talk all the time about like, "Man, if Aaron was still here in this world of AI, what would he be doing?" Because he was so far ahead. He would have been talking about AI in 2020. So when we were doing our podcast and we kept talking about bringing it back to life. So he died in 2022 and before that he was talking about how the podcast had to be focused in YouTube and video and all of that way back. Which is early Jared Correia (33:52): For that shit too. Karin Conroy (33:53): Way early. Way, way, way early. He would go to CES. The guy was in real estate investment. The tech stuff was just his sort of- The sideline forham. Yeah, but he also brought it into ... So he had a podcast for his real estate investment company and there was just a whole kind of tech side of it that brought him forward in all of it. And so he was the one who really kind of opened my eyes to that. And I was like, "Listen, if we are going to record, why would I not do the video side of it and not use this piece of content? I'm going to go to the hassle of creating this content. Let's maximize its utility and get it out to as many platforms, as many places." And then initially I was like, "Let's do that for the first year or so and see what sticks and let's get some data on this and figure out what is really working." And there is no question that YouTube is number one and that is going forward. (34:53): If you are not putting your podcast on YouTube, you're totally making a huge mistake. It's not just missing out, you're making a mistake at this point. Jared Correia (35:01): Will you come back for one last fun segment, which may be fun at Males will be harrowing. It'll be somewhere in the middle of fun and harrowing. Karin Conroy (35:10): Well, let's lean towards harrowing because then that'll pull people in. Jared Correia (35:15): Come back for the last harrowing segment. Karin, welcome back. How are you? Karin Conroy (35:25): Oh, I don't know. I'm a whole different person. Jared Correia (35:28): Okay. That was unexpected. Let me do our little intro and then you'll know what you're getting into. Welcome to the Counter Program. It's a podcast within a podcast. This is a conversational space where we can address usually unrelated topics that I want to explore at a greater depth with my guests. Expect no rhyme and very little reason. Karin, today we're going to play an entirely new game that I created just for you is called Other Famous Teamups Beyond the Famous Teamup that's happening right now. Okay. Here's how it's going to work. Karin Conroy (35:58): Okay. Jared Correia (35:59): I'm going to describe a surprising team up from across genres related to pop culture and you just have to identify the parties. Simple and easy. Are Karin Conroy (36:10): You ready? Okay. I don't know. I don't know. I'm a little worried. I'm getting a little bit sweaty. Jared Correia (36:16): That's what everyone says. We should have some deodorant tie in here. Karin Conroy (36:20): I feel like that would be a good branding move. Jared Correia (36:23): I do too. Karin Conroy (36:24): I wonder if your listeners sweat when they hear that. They start to kind of get their- Jared Correia (36:28): They're all sweating right now. They're excited. They're getting very excited for the counter program. Okay. So if you know the answer, just shout it out. If not, I have multiple choice. Karin Conroy (36:38): Okay. So we're Jared Correia (36:39): Doing all kinds of crazy shit here. Karin Conroy (36:42): All right. I'm glad that I can fall back on the multiple choice options. Yes. Because the one thing I learned from possible otherwise course was always choose Jared Correia (36:51): C. Okay. I don't know how that's going to go this time around, but we can Karin Conroy (36:56): Try it. Is there a C? Jared Correia (36:57): Yes. There will always be a C. Okay. Karin Conroy (36:59): All right. Now I'm going to- Question Jared Correia (37:01): Number one. Yes. In 1992, great times. Yes. These rival WWF wrestling icons briefly set aside their differences to form a short-lived tag team powerhouse called The Ultimate Maniacs. The tandem was so short-lived, in fact, that they only appeared together in one televised match before one of the tag team members quit the WWF forever. Tragic story. Karin Conroy (37:28): And you thought this would be something I would know? Jared Correia (37:30): I don't know. I felt like Karin Conroy (37:31): You did your research. Jared Correia (37:35): One time we had a, I'd say a gentleman about 65-ish and he was like, "I know everything there's to know about Janet Jackson," which kind of shocks me. That's Karin Conroy (37:48): Amazing. Jared Correia (37:49): But that just Karin Conroy (37:50): Happened. You got to do your own thing. My WWF knowledge goes back to Jesse Ventura, the former governater. Oh. Yeah. Am I right? Jared Correia (38:00): That's good. No, no, he's not involved at Karin Conroy (38:02): All. No, Jared Correia (38:02): Dang it. But that means you have a little back catalog of knowledge. Okay. So is it Hulk Hogan and the Ultimate Warrior, Randy Savage and the Ultimate Warrior or Andre the Giant and Hope. Karin Conroy (38:15): I think it's B. I think it's Randy Savage. Jared Correia (38:18): Yes, that's correct. Karin Conroy (38:19): Yes. Okay. How many places do I have so far? Jared Correia (38:22): One. We will give you one point for each correct answer. All right. That was really impressive. Karin Conroy (38:27): Okay. Jared Correia (38:29): I'm a good answer. Okay. Karin Conroy (38:31): I'm really lucky with parking spots. Jared Correia (38:33): Okay. It's like Carma. It's good to know. Yeah. All right. So there will be no parking challenge here, but we will continue on with our pop culture related ... Let's see. We've never had anyone go perfect in- Karin Conroy (38:46): Oh, that's about 17 Jared Correia (38:49): Years of podcasting. Karin Conroy (38:51): So this could be Jared Correia (38:52): It. Karin Conroy (38:53): All right. I don't want to jinx you back to Google open the tab over in the corner. Jared Correia (38:56): I mean, you could. You know what's great about this is that people don't Google, which I really appreciate. Karin Conroy (39:01): I'm the first one to suggest that. Oh Jared Correia (39:03): No, people have suggested it before, but that feels like cheating. Plus we get multiple choice. All right. Number two. Karin Conroy (39:08): Okay. All right. Jared Correia (39:08): In a 1977 televised Christmas special, these two famous singers teamed up for an unlikely duet of The Little Drummer Boy in Peace on Earth, as well as acting out scenes from Charles Dickens novels together. Do you need multiple choice? It sounds like you might know this one. Karin Conroy (39:28): I can picture it. I need the multiple choice though. Jared Correia (39:31): You're probably going to get it if you can picture it. Paul McCartney and Marvin Gay. Karin Conroy (39:35): No. Jared Correia (39:36): Louie Armstrong and Michael Jackson. David Bowie and Bing Crosby. Karin Conroy (39:42): C. C. Boy and Big Crosby. Especially in this show because we talked earlier about all the sea alliterations. Jared Correia (39:52): Oh yeah. Oh, that's perfect. I didn't realize that. I was not even doing that on purpose. Karin Conroy (39:56): I was a step ahead. Jared Correia (39:58): All right. Number three, Karin Conroy (39:59): Perfect Jared Correia (40:00): So far. Karin Conroy (40:01): I know. I feel like we should stop here. Jared Correia (40:04): But we won't. In 1996, this writer and singer teamed up to create a 40 minute music video called Ghosts, which set a Guinness record for the longest music video ever at that time in which the Karin Conroy (40:18): Singer Jared Correia (40:18): Played five different roles and financed the entire product, the entire production for $15 million. 1996, 40 minute video called Ghosts, Singer and Author. Karin Conroy (40:32): Oh, stop. Came Jared Correia (40:33): Up. Karin Conroy (40:34): This is where you've decided that I'm not going to have a perfect Jared Correia (40:36): Streak.This was pre-ordained. I can give you the multiple choice. Karin Conroy (40:42): Okay. This is going to be a long shot. Jared Correia (40:45): I think you're a good guesser. So was it Michael Jackson and Steven King, Madonna and Joe Hill or Whitney Houston and Clive Barker? Michael Jackson, Steven King, Madonna and Joe Hill or Whitney Houston and Clive Barker. Karin Conroy (41:06): I'm leaning towards B on this one. Madonna. Jared Correia (41:10): You want to talk me through it for a second? Karin Conroy (41:14): No, it's just a feel. It's just a ... That's wrong. It's like sure you don't want to talk about that. I saw it on your face as soon as I said that. You're like, are you sure you want to take another choice? Is it C? Jared Correia (41:28): No. Wow. Karin Conroy (41:29): Okay. Jared Correia (41:29): Michael Jackson is Steven King. Karin Conroy (41:32): So Jared Correia (41:33): I thought maybe the Karin Conroy (41:34): Thriller- What Jared Correia (41:35): Year was Karin Conroy (41:35): Thriller? Type of Jared Correia (41:36): Vibe. Karin Conroy (41:36): Yeah. Jared Correia (41:37): Thriller was 83. Karin Conroy (41:39): This was 96. Oh, this is 96. Okay. Yeah. I Jared Correia (41:41): Didn't even Karin Conroy (41:41): Know about Jared Correia (41:42): This until I did a Karin Conroy (41:43): Little Jared Correia (41:43): Research on him. Karin Conroy (41:44): You're still doing well. Deep cut. Deep cut. Jared Correia (41:47): You're two of three. Next, this is a good one. Okay. Karin Conroy (41:52): You may Jared Correia (41:52): Know this one. We'll see. In 1978, a legendary Oscar winning Hollywood director and actor signed a massive contract to team up with a budget California winery resulting in a series of infamous, highly parodied television commercials, which included many, many drunken outtakes, which were released years later. Actor and winery. You want the multiple choice? Karin Conroy (42:23): Yeah, because my first ... Okay, yes. Jared Correia (42:25): You can take a guess if you want. I won't Karin Conroy (42:27): Know. Well, my first thought was Francis or Copola, but that wouldn't have been- Oh, that's a good guess. So parodied. All Jared Correia (42:34): Right. Here, I'll give you the multiple choice. Karin Conroy (42:36): Okay. Because Jared Correia (42:38): Alfred Hitchcock and Ernest and Julio Gallo for the winery. Orson Wells and Paul Masson, John Houston and Carlo Rossi. Karin Conroy (42:50): I think it was C. I think it was John Houston and Carla Rossi. Oh no, it was A. It was ... Oh, wait, because what was the winery in A? Jared Correia (42:59): Ernest and Julio Gallo. Karin Conroy (43:01): That was the winery I was picturing. That's always the joke because that's the box wine. It's big. Ortho Wells and Palma song. I feel like ... I don't know with Hitchcock. Jared Correia (43:14): It would be- It's B. Oh. The only one you didn't guess. Karin Conroy (43:19): Orson Welles. I can feel the karma leaving the room. Jared Correia (43:24): Late period, Orson Wells. There are some really funny outtakes when he's Karin Conroy (43:28): Just Jared Correia (43:29): Throwing away these commercials. Karin Conroy (43:31): How is it not a box wine though? Or is Paul Mason, is that a box wine? Jared Correia (43:36): They may have boxes, but I know they have glasses. They actually have glass bottles. Karin Conroy (43:42): Glass bottles and not just the- Jared Correia (43:43): Which- Karin Conroy (43:44): Plastic bag. Jared Correia (43:46): Orson Karin Conroy (43:46): Wells does Jared Correia (43:47): Some cash and also some free wine. He really did it upright at the end of his career. Karin Conroy (43:52): Oh, so we're like two for two. That's Jared Correia (43:55): Okay. Okay. You got two more where you got a chance to save Karin Conroy (43:58): Yourself. Okay. All right. Jared Correia (44:00): Number five. Beginning in 1914, these two titans of American industry embarked on annual, highly publicized summer road trips across America, roughing it in the wilderness together with their other oligarch friends. The Vagabond tours, as they were called, occurred each year through 1924. Karin Conroy (44:22): Okay. So Jared Correia (44:23): Which American industrialists basically camped together for the summer for 10 years? Was it Wilbur Wright and Alexander Graham Bell, Nicola Tesla and George Westinghouse or Henry Ford and Thomas Edison, Wright and Bell, Tesla and Westinghouse or Ford and Edison. This was actually a real thing that happened. Karin Conroy (44:46): I'm leaning towards C, but it seems too obvious with the Ford and Thomas Edison. Jared Correia (44:52): C Karin Conroy (44:52): Is Jared Correia (44:52): Always the right answer. Karin Conroy (44:54): I know. I feel like it is. I'm going to go with C because- C is Jared Correia (44:57): Correct. Karin Conroy (44:58): Yes. Okay. I'm redeeming myself. I'm on the redemption tour. You've Jared Correia (45:02): At least clinched the 50% Karin Conroy (45:05): Finish. Yeah. Listen. This is a Jared Correia (45:06): Real thing. They went around. They would do specialized trips every year in a different part of the country. Karin Conroy (45:13): It was a different world back then. We went to ... Have you ever been to Hearst Castle? Jared Correia (45:18): William Randolph first castle? Yeah. I'm here in California. But I've heard of it and figures prominently in Citizen Kane on Orson Wells production. Karin Conroy (45:28): Yes. Yeah. Well, first of all, he was nuts, but also the castle itself is nuts and it's so fun, but the stories and that was a similar era. Basically to go from Los Angeles up to his castle would take at that time the better part of a day. It's about three to four hours north of LA right now if you just drive a regular car. But that was a whole thing. They would be driving those little Model T Fords and it would take the better part of a day, but all the Hollywood elite would go up there. And so that was weird. I feel like caravans Jared Correia (46:01): Driving up Karin Conroy (46:01): There, probably. Yeah. But he had hundreds of thousands of acres and giraffe and weird animals. Anyway, once again, also that same sort of era and the stories and the things they were doing back then, because they didn't have TikTok Jared Correia (46:20): Or television or the internet. Karin Conroy (46:23): Right. So to keep themselves entertained was a whole other Jared Correia (46:28): Thing. They do some weird shit, riding giraffes and stuff. Karin Conroy (46:31): Exactly. Jared Correia (46:32): I got one more for you, which is this one's not going to be easy, so you'll need to use your guessing power. The last one was always hardest. Karin Conroy (46:39): Okay. Jared Correia (46:39): In 1975, a United States astronaut and a Soviet cosmonaut shared the first international handshake in space when their two shuttles successfully docked. In addition to being a successful test of the docking system, it was a powerful symbol of Dayton during the Cold War and paved the way for future US Russian collaborations. Who were the spacemen? Thomas Strafford, Thomas Stafford and Alexi Leonev. Leonov. I'm going to be bad with the Russian names. Neil Armstrong and Yuri Gargarin or Buzz Aldrin and Valentina Tesherkova. Please don't Karin Conroy (47:26): Write that for us. I'm sure that was exactly right. Jared Correia (47:30): Stafford Karin Conroy (47:30): And Leonov, Jared Correia (47:31): Armstrong and Gargarin or Aldrin and Terescova. Karin Conroy (47:35): I think you do have a large Russian audience, right? A whole bunch of- I Jared Correia (47:38): Do. For a while, we were the number one business podcast in Ghana, but I don't know what our Karin Conroy (47:44): Russian five-penetration is at this Jared Correia (47:46): Point. Karin Conroy (47:46): Nice. I'm in the top 25 in Nigeria right now. I just got this yesterday. I know. On two different- Jared Correia (47:53): Subscribe to us too. Karin Conroy (47:57): No, leave this one alone and leave mine alone. We can have Palo lives. Continue to control. Time to both. Yeah. Okay. I feel like the Neil Armstrong Yuri, that one feels right to me. I don't know why. Or it could be Jared Correia (48:16): A red herring because Neil Armstrong and Yuri are the Karin Conroy (48:19): Most popular astronauts of Cosmos. Gregorov, right? I feel like Jared Correia (48:24): It's- Yuri Gargarin. I think he's the Karin Conroy (48:26): Most Jared Correia (48:27): Famous cosmonaut. I think he was the first one in space. Karin Conroy (48:30): And let's just say Cosmanat is a way cooler word than astronaut, I think. Jared Correia (48:34): I agree. No Karin Conroy (48:34): Notes. Jared Correia (48:35): Definitely. So you think that's the Karin Conroy (48:38): One? I do think that the Neil Armstrong is a red herring. I'm okay. I'm backpedaling. I'm going to go with C. I'm going with C. Jared Correia (48:50): C, also a red herring. Well, no, C is incorrect. It was also a red herring. Karin Conroy (48:57): Dang it. Was it A? Jared Correia (49:00): Yeah. Karin Conroy (49:01): It was A. Okay. It was the Jared Correia (49:02): Most obscure of the astronaut cosmonaut tandem. Karin Conroy (49:05): Which makes the most sense, to be honest. The other ones are just like, you have no idea so this sounds right, and then you have no idea so this sounds right number two. Jared Correia (49:14): Exactly. You quitted yourself quite well here today on Karin Conroy (49:19): Legal Jared Correia (49:20): Late Night. Seriously. And this is why I like having intelligent people on the podcast who will suss things out. Kudos Karin Conroy (49:28): To you. Or just go with C. Jared Correia (49:31): Or C. I mean, C was right on the last one. There are a couple C's here too. Karin Conroy (49:36): At some point you're going to be right. Jared Correia (49:39): A Karin Conroy story. Conroy Creative Counsel. I'm trying to come up with a tagline that says, always bet on C. You ever play roulette? Always bet on C. Yes. But there's no letters on the roulette table. We'll workshop it. Karin Conroy (49:56): Right. Yeah. No, maybe not bet on. Always choose C because there's a C in the choose. Always choose C. Yeah, I think that's a good option. Yeah. Thank you for Jared Correia (50:07): Coming on. Karin Conroy (50:08): Have Claude with the C. Jared Correia (50:09): Claude with C. Claude with a C. This is delightful. Thank you. Karin Conroy (50:14): We will have to Jared Correia (50:15): See you again soon. Thank you for Karin Conroy (50:16): Coming. Oh, that's a good one. Jared Correia (50:18): Thanks to our guest, Karin Conroy, who is the principal of Conroy Creative Counsel. To learn more about Karin and Conroy Creative Counsel, visit conroycreativeCounsel.com all sees conroycreativeCounsel.com and don't forget to listen to Counselcast on The Legal Broadcasting Company. Now, because I'll always be a 90s kid who was the original voice of Young Simba and the Lion King before dropping out, but whose true passion is burning CDs for anyone who would listen. I'm now just doing the modern version of that, which is creating Spotify playlists for every podcast episode that I record where the songs are tangentially related to an episode topic. For this week's playlist, we've got more unexpected team-ups with weird duets and it's brought to you by Bethlehem Steel. Actually, Bethlehem Steel is all out of business fully. Time to go on the Vagabond tour, I guess. Join us next time when I return my old parachute pants to Walmart or try to.