Latest / Second Nature / E199 George Pawley: Scaling Capital - How We're Making Nature Investable

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E199 George Pawley: Scaling Capital - How We're Making Nature Investable · Second Nature

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: For those of you paying close attention, you may have noticed that everything oxygen tends to be signaled ahead of time.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: And in our green print to start 2026, we excitingly talked about how the business was forming, um, was evolving and growing and really forming three separate key businesses that come together to form the more than the sum of the parts.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: And those pillars are conservation, and you've met the incredible managing director of that, Faye Milden already.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: Intelligence, run by Chris Winter, and it is my absolute pleasure today to introduce the brand new managing director of Oxygen Capital, Mr.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: George Pauly.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: Can we get a round of applause, please?
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: George, congratulations on your new role.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, the first ever managing director of Oxygen Capital.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what does that role mean to you?
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it means a lot.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, thinking back to the green print, we took that you know pretty seriously, I think, Rich.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: You you came up with Over Christmas and we started talking about it at Q0, and and here I am, what, nine months later, like with the with a great responsibility to take on a big part of what OC's future is gonna look like, I think.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, can you give people a flavour of the the span of that role?
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: What will sit in in your directorate and now be your responsibility and and privilege to lead?
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think effectively we've got four like awesome teams.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so legal, which is obviously where I'm from, background's a solicitor.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we're then gonna have people led by Andrew with Karis, who are absolutely awesome, responsible for like retaining, well, attracting and retaining some amazing people to help us deliver all the great things we're doing.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: We've got investment with Alicia and Matt, and we've got finance um led by Alice.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: So together we're kind of like, I guess we're kind of like the central functions which deliver everything from uh you know deploying the capital, managing it, reporting on it, delivering like fantastic um risk-adjusted contracts to make sure we've got really robust platforms.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, and obviously, as I said, as I said, retain attracting and retaining all the people that make all that amazing stuff happen.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I've I've come from a role uh with an auction house where you know we are providing that support for a lot of people and really excited to be expanding that with an OC OC now.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: Why was now the time to make the three-part divide?
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: Why, why did we need to absolutely crystallise the auction capital brand and part of the business now?
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna compliment the green print, Rich, because I think what what when I read that um over Christmas and then into new year, what I think you could see is like the business very clearly evolving into like more distinct divisions and having everything branded as oxygen conservation probably didn't do justice to all of the the the breadth of all the work that that happens within within the team.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I think kind of um setting those divisional structures up to say, right, okay, we've got an amazing operational delivery team, you know, the estates are incredibly difficult to manage.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: There's so many amazing projects to do.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: That is clearly uh a lot of expertise in that business.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: Then obviously you've got intelligence doing incredibly uh you know complex technical uh work that I don't understand.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that's very clearly a business, and in it could be business in own right.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then with capital, I think you've you collect in all of the support teams who provide the uh the management, the reporting, uh, the legal frameworks, uh, you know, bring in bringing the people to deliver across all of the teams.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's just a really natural evolution of what we're doing.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, with our mission to scale, inevitably that brings, well, we need capital and we're capital-intensive, we have to invest a lot of money to acquire these landscapes, a really important part of our model.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: And therefore, having a team who's set up to work with our current amazing investors who've given us all the support we we could possibly ask for, and then trying to find new investors who can help us help propel us even further is a real amazing kind of opportunity and responsibility.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: You are amongst a very short group of people who literally built OC from the ground up.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you're one of the first people we all met at the parent company Oxygen House.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: Can you tell the story about how you heard about OC and how your involvement has grown over time?
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was working down, um, it was during COVID, working down at my in-laws' house in Cornwall.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: I got a Teams call from Matt, the GC at Oxygen House Group, who said, Oh, can you set up a new company?
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to call it Oxygen Conservation Limited.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we're going to do some interesting investments in conservation.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, okay, cool.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no problem.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's just a simple simple job for me at that time, and didn't really have a concept of what you were planning with Mark and the team in the background.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, to see where we've come from that point five years ago, just over, is absolutely bonkers, and it's been a real privilege to be part of it.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, it was fun initially because it was like, okay, we're gonna buy some land, not really done this before, mainly kind of done corporate work or commercial work.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: So getting to know about rural land was really interesting.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, we live in I live in Devon, so it's all around me, but you never appreciate it, and you don't appreciate the complexities either.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, through to you know what we do now, which is you know very, very broad in terms of its scope, but it all kind of interlinks beautifully, and there's a really kind of coherent narrative through all everything we do.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: Can you remember when in that process you thought, do you know what?
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: I don't just want to help these guys, I'd really like to do this full stuff.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think it like the the great thing about OC is it kind of like subsumes you very quickly.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's a compliment.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, you you start doing one element of the work, and you can then start to see all the other branches that that start to come into play.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: And you've got that, I you know, you've got the background of the cow.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: I know I know what we were doing originally, I'd now like to see that develop.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: And that was one of the reasons I moved from a private practice role into an in-house role in the first place, because in private practice as a lawyer, you kind of see a book-ended part of a transaction.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: So it comes in at a particular point when negotiations and conversations have been happening over days, months, years, and you do the work and execute it really well, and then it kind of disappears and you don't know what happened.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's why that's why I started to really enjoy the work with OC because you start hearing about okay, we've just seen, we just heard about this new piece of land.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, okay, cool, let's learn a bit more about that.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it sounds really interesting.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it looks amazing.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us more about it.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: We then start to do all the work on it and you start to understand it and get involved with all the characters that you hear about, you know, whether it's agents or the sellers or whatever it might be, um, go through to buy it, which is obviously a really exciting pro pro um process.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's the thing I enjoy doing most.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think the the deals and the transactions, you know, they really kind of like give me energy.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, okay, right, it's now ours.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: We've got this like incredible landscape to to design some really interesting projects and make some impact, and you really want to run run towards that.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it all you want it happen, want it to happen really, really quickly.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: What is um so you're now one of three managing directors?
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: What are your first memories of meeting Chris and and Fee?
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I remember meeting Chris on a again on a Teams call.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't speak his language, I don't think he spoke my language.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I was like, I'm not sure he's gonna get what he's gonna like me.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um but but but you very but very quickly you could see like incredibly knowledgeable what what he was doing, very passionate, incredible background, you know, and absolutely mad.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yeah, absolutely.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: But that's all that's all great, and like, you know, I the the other thing I I really like about OC is how diverse we are as a team, very, very different backgrounds across the board, which you know leads to like fantastic decision making ultimately because you've got so many different perspectives.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, even you even look at me, you and Chris.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you brought up in Cornwall with a very different lifestyle from me in Scunthorpe and Chris in the Northwest.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: It couldn't be any more different, could it?
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, yeah, yeah.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then Fee, um you talk you told me about her because you were you met her down at Leon, I think, when she was in her previous role, and you'd said we found the person we we want to hire to to lead our property team.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it was a question of you know, you know, um hopefully finding it finding a way to attract her to the role.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then I met her when she'd accepted, I think, and she was very corporate.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I thought, God, this is gonna be difficult.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: I really and Oh, so you met Fiona rather than Fiona.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're right.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: I met Fiona, absolutely, yeah.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, oh, crikey, like this is gonna be hard.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because at that point, I was kind of getting more and more comfortable with the OC um culture, you know, you know, very relaxed, very jokey, um, you know, but also, you know, also kind of very, very diligent, people work incredibly hard.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, okay, we've definitely got the latter.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then you meet Fee and spend a bit of time with her, and all of a sudden it is it is Fee.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, we've got an amazing, amazing person who's got an incredible amount of experience and incredibly exciting to be be part of the team with her as well.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you you mentioned there this the sort of style that I've kind of mandated and willed into being.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: How how has you in work changed over that time period from the George that would have been in private practice through to in-house through to now?
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think on a journey I'm probably becoming a little bit more open to taking risk.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess that comes with experience, but also comes with the familiarity of the the role and the company and what we're trying to achieve.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I think why I'm really lucky to be in this role now is I've probably got the background in like being very being the very conservative voice, and we've now got others who can bring much more experience and and you know, knowledge and skill to that than I probably ever could.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: But I can maybe say I've got my own experiences and I've also got you know understanding where the company wants to go and can start trying to layer that end, maybe just have a slightly different perspective on it.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm not gonna be like, no, we can't do that legally, that's a bit risky, we're not gonna go there anymore.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna try and hopefully say, actually, there's there are ways that we can there are ways that we can do this, and you know what, there might be a risk we've we can take there.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you and I had that conversation not that long ago after the um after the kind of government's um emergency briefing um came out.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, do you know what when you read that, you do want to take risk?
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's true, actually.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you pushed me more on that one.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, it was it was properly shocking to read it.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you thought, well, some some of the some of the compli not compliance, some of the um some of the positions we're taking maybe are too risk averse because there is a real emergency that we are in a position to influence in some shape or form.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't necessarily feel the same way I did when I woke up having not read that.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: How how important is the impact side of what we do to your enjoyment and alignment with OC?
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um very I think it's the same for everybody in the business.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, everybody is genuinely here to do something positive, meaningful, whatever reason that might be.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, for me, I think it was wanting to have have a role where you felt like day in, day out, I'm doing something really positive, I'm really aligned with the the values of the company that that there is a mission that I'm getting out of bed for.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think the great thing about our team is that everybody has that, as I said, in one shape or another.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's it's I think it's critical and you can't you can't push yourself unless you have that because you know we have we have very demanding timelines on our projects, you know, we really push push harder than harder than anybody else in the sector, I think, to try and deliver as quickly as we can and maybe push push the boundaries of what you can deliver in the first place.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: You you've got two little people.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um has that connection to impact heightened since you've been a dad?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I I think it inevitably does.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it'll be the same, it'll be the same for you.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think you know, you want to do something that they can be proud of, I think ultimately.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because when you when you look back when they're a bit older and you and you can you can justify being away a little bit more or you know working slightly later and not being able to go to that recital or whatever it might be, we do our best to try and you know be really good on that side of things as well, but inevitably we have to make sacrifices every now and again.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think making the sacrifice positively as a proactive decision that I want to do this because it's for a greater good, and there are loads of other people in the team who are reliant upon me or a member of our team to do that piece of work which allows them to do the next piece of work.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think that yeah, that that inevitably gives you that fulfillment.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: How has um how has you been perceived as a leader changed in your mind over the last five years?
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: I don't necessarily see myself as a leader.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um I still I still kind of have you know have all the insecurities that you have about you know when you're in a role, regardless of how long you've been in it, regardless how long you've been doing something.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: But I just try to I just always like try to go to work and do my best every day.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that's if if that's kind of inspiring to other people, that's brilliant.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: But that's what I expect of myself.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: And hopefully other people will kind of you know see that that's that's a standard that that I aspire to.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: And if if you kind of follow that, that's that's brilliant.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: I always remember a couple of years ago we had our sort of key review process, and four of your colleagues, uh unsequenced, not knowing, literally listed the way you work, the standards, the performance, as inspiring them and holding them to a higher bar.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that was a uh for me, that was a good illustration of the quiet, measured, sensible, professional leadership that you always brought to bear, even before you had any direct reports.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so you role modelling that was always really like everyone knows George's standards are high.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, we've got an intern at the moment who you um very kindly complimented her written work.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you've never done that for me or Chris, um despite publishing two books, not that not that I'm bitter about it at all.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then we went on a journey in terms of um people because um earlier in your career hadn't done a lot of line management, it wasn't something uh in the parent group weren't looking to grow the company, and even the idea of getting involved in people leadership wasn't something you love the idea of.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, and I mean looking back on that, obviously, you know, hindsight's one other thing, but I'm so excited to be working with so many amazing people who elevate elevate me, and I've learned loads loads from.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: So it was so it was fascinating because I knew we'd get here, like I knew this was where we'd get to, but it's it's years and it was having and and also other people so valued your opinion, you know.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: So we um we have a calibration activity, excuse me, where we score everyone in the team quarterly, and everyone wanted George's opinion.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: And George was like, I don't need to be here, I've got no direct reports, I could do two hours more work on this.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, your opinion is so valuable on other people's.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the real game changer on the people leadership side was when we found Hannah, right?
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: Can you talk to that a little?
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, we I mean we were looking for a new lawyer, met with some amazing candidates.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: I remember hundreds, right?
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: There were hundreds of applicants.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, yeah.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: We're really lucky, and some some incredibly talented people who are attracted again primarily by the mission, I think.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, being an OC provides loads of opportunities to do all sorts of different work, which is great.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: So loads of met loads of fantastic candidates.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: I remember the call we had with Hannah, and I think it was Andrew and I and came off the call, and I was a bit like okay, that's that's um that's gonna be a game changer.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um she was amazing, so professional, so switched on, so clever.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: And she we we we were lucky, so amazingly lucky to have her.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: And since she's come in, she's the absolute force of nature.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, she's just been promoted, which is absolutely fantastic, to head of legal, and she's thoroughly deserves, thoroughly deserves that.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: She's become she is she is a leader and is is everything is being taken in her stride.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and she's a much better lawyer than I have I ever was.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um so that's good news for the company as well.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, so so that's that's amazing.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: And and as a result, I've really kind of like, you know, wanted to look for other opportunities to work with other people.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I originally felt like, well, I can I can now manage a lawyer because I understand what lawyers do.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't, I still, you know, still have a massive appreciation for what the people team do and what the investment team do and what the finance team do.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just really lucky to be kind of learning from them and how they do things and just hopefully providing a bit of support.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's really how I see it because we've got the leaders of those teams are just incredible in their own right.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: The talent is ludicrous, isn't it?
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like you've got the most incredibly and and almost the composition of your team is at a very senior level as well.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: So you are leading Alice and Alicia and Hannah and Andrew and Matt, and it's like just unbelievable people.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: So um it's really the um the engine room of the corporate side of the business, whereas Fee's got the delivery on the ground and Chris's group of wonderful lunatics are thinking up new things, you have to make them a legal reality.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: And and and I I've always loved project management.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: So obviously those teams interact a lot, and so being able to like kind of like help knit it, knit each other together and know when there's um you know an element where we are we absolutely need to bring in the finance team to help with that particular decision, or oh no, that's an investment um strategic kind of matter when you think about the commercial strategy associated with that.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: Just just being able to help facilitate that is you know, I've got some experience having delivered lots of different projects, and and that's what I love doing because ultimately there's people way better placed than me to advise on it.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a question of helping them, you know, helping them get to get to the right answer and having that really good debate.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things you've been able to do for OC is create incredible external partnerships with professional advisors.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, can you help people understand how important that is and how you go about building those really good relationships?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, the best example is is Burgess Salmon, obviously.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, well again, one of the first things that I did with with Matt from OH when we uh when we started was to do a legal RFP to find a legal partner who would help us acquire these estates because it's not something I can do in-house.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're talking, you know, need some real experts and some real manpower to be able to deliver these deals really quickly.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so we did an RFP, some amazing responses, but we were really lucky to find Burgess Salmon, a firm who I didn't know much about really.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, I knew the name.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Had Matt worked with them before?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe knew a few people, um, but probably hadn't done lots and lots of work with them.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, obviously we found the amazing Ross Simpson um who's done all of our work, um, all of our acquisitions um since what June 2021 probably was the first instruction.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, and it's a question of you know, I think I think inevitably on on transactions you work very closely with somebody.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously at the time when we do the first few, there was you and Dan in the field effectively, yeah, and me at me at Oxford and at home doing you know, trying to progress these transactions.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: So inevitably you build a very strong relationship with them, you know, and that and they were from day one, it was built on big trust and respect for like their expertise and you know, following their advice and making sure that there's the the overlay of everything that you guys are learning about what you're doing on the ground, um, you know, and being being really open, really transparent, um giving them giving them leeway.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: They they were amazing at at being able to advise on the right things and tell us what we didn't to what we didn't need to worry about and focus on.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: So that was incredible.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: So just inevitably, as you start to do more and more transactions, you get more familiar with each other across the board, but but it it then leads to a deepening relationship because we then start saying, well, okay, we're not just buying a piece of land now.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: We are now, there's now a team who are coming with it, or there's IP, or there might be existing carbon credits.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so you start, and there's always tax issues.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: So you start kind of um intermingling with all the other experts in the team.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: And the great thing that I've always said about Burgess Salmon is that every single one of the team that we've met really lives their values, and we chose them.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: It was primarily a values-based decision because we didn't know what we're gonna do, we didn't know what our legal spend was going to be.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: It was about choosing the firm who we thought would represent us best in the in the outside world from a you know from a professional perspective, but also, you know, they have to be great people who you who you want to spend time with, who you feel you can pick up the phone to for anything and everything.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: And they they've certainly provided that.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: And we've now added great advisors on the tax, the accountancy side, the investment side as we go to market for our first external raise.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: You you've negotiated some incredible commercial contracts that have worked for everyone.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: How do you find that sweet spot of getting us the right deal, but so that it's in a collaborative way that everyone's happy with?
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think I try not to be um too subjective.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I've I've always been, I don't know what this might be a strength or a weakness, but I've always been quite good at trying to trying to take um the other side's position.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: So if you and I are talking about it, I might be saying, I agree with you that they're the best things for OC, but these are also the things that the counterparty are going to be really concerned about.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I almost kind of anchor towards them and try and find where your comfort levels are, whoever we're working with.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's really important.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, ultimately I want to ultimately I want to get the deal done.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: And you don't want to, unless it's unless it's really necessary, you don't want to, you know, entrench yourself in a position you can't ultimately move from and you know things fall apart.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I think that's a really important um you know attribute to bring to a to a commercial negotiation.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: I want to really understand their position and try and help because ultimately, if you can help them, it helps us get there as well.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: And with most of these things, you tend to think the fit is there, it's just a question of making it work for everybody.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: And and I quite like that that kind of mediation role, I suppose.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, obviously there are puts sometimes where we do have to be quite strong in terms of our positions, but if you set those out really early, again, as part of being really open and transparent and saying, I'm gonna tell you right now we cannot move from this position, but everything else we can discuss.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think that that that that kind of leads you to an outcome that's successful.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I mean, on transactions, we've had very few aborts as a result of that kind.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Of approach that you will you'll take.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: I always love that Dan always talked very early about um partnership by default.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's a really, really good kind of mantra.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like try and have that mindset where, regardless of what you're doing at the time, you are creating a long-term relationship with these people.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: Therefore, do things in the right way, respect respect their position, find find the middle ground that inevitably is there if you if you want to look for it.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: What's been the hardest deal, George?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: Acquisitions-wise.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: Start with that.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I suppose you could say the first on the basis that you know we were very much learning as we as we went along.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: And the sellers were delicate.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, they took they took six months, and we wouldn't do a transaction like that now.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: In that we would either say, right, it's got to be done very quickly, or we can't do it because the scale isn't there.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: So that so they were difficult in the sense that we were finding our finding our feet in terms of how we how we acquire these landscapes of what we're looking for.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think, I mean, the latest, the latest deal, Kinrara, was very complicated, um, but an incredible achievement to get it done that had extra extra elements that we hadn't dealt with behalf.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Is the CEO on the other side who's really pragmatic?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic team that we worked with.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, that's um it's been another example of each of us staying in our respective roles and lanes, has been so vital.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: The fact that I'm not involved in the nuts and bolts of the transaction, once the commercial are achieved, you you run the process with your teams, and then you can utilize me as a resource when we need to unstick things, and that's been helpful.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: They've all they've all had their features.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what Escarath could have probably fallen over at the last minute.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, there's there's quite a few transactions you look at, look back on, and there were pivotal moments where the balance swayed in the favour that we were hoping it to sway towards for whatever reason that might be.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: So in in um in the NFL, they talk about uh transitions in the game.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: So when once I'd lose the ball or I'll get it, turnovers in rugby is the equivalent, and they have a toxic differential.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: So if you lose more balls and you win, you always lose in the season.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think where we excel is in those transition phases.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: If something changes about a deal, every time that's happened, we've got a better deal as a result.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: Something's adjusted late.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: The sellers have got an issue.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's like whereas other people would either procrastinate or panic.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: We're like, brilliant, what's the new opportunity we have in this?
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think about the Ezgar Arthur one.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: We literally had it on the line.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: I was halfway up the M5 on the way home.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: You call and go, this has changed, this has changed.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: I get back on the agent, we readjust the position, everyone's happy and we get it done.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: But it was like last minute on that one, wasn't it?
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I think uh it also again going back to what I said earlier, probably helps being relatively objective about it.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: So it's very easy in deals to be quite emotional towards the end because you put so much effort into it.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, but it but you know, if a particular issue comes up at the last minute, that if it came up a few weeks ago, you'd have just just you know said, okay, I want to roll the punches and we'll figure this one out.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: You just have to try and keep that mindset no matter how close you are to doing something.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um so we've we've we've been pretty successful at that, I think.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: And as you said, like we we just adapt.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: I love the attitude of like, you know, is there an opportunity in this?
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: How do we how do we make this successful here regardless of the of the issue that we've encountered?
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: How do you know when it's the right thing to do to be cautious, but then when actually caution might be the wrong thing for the business and it'd have a negative impact?
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think you only know having had multiple opinions on the matter, like it's not a single person who can make a decision like that.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um we have we have the benefit of 20 people in a dis in a particular decision who we might go to um for an opinion, and they're all incredibly helpful because it'll either underline a position we thought we wanted to take, or it might give us a new perspective and say actually we haven't we haven't considered it from that angle.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I think that helps you get to a get to a decision.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I I don't know whether I'm projecting what I assume people's opinion of me is, but historically I think there's been thoughts that I just make all the decisions and say what happens.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I I don't think I've made a decision in the last certainly four years that you haven't been asked about other than what I'm in for lunch, right?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like I don't think I've made a substantive decision about this business that I haven't asked your opinion on because it's been better as a result, and actually I think um your ascension to being one of the most important influential people in the business has been because of the quality of the advice and the counsel that every time we've discussed something, the answer gets better as a result because we look at things in so many different ways and do it that way.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: The answer I thought you were going to give about um is that we never actually know until after the fact.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: So it's the whole Annie Duke stuff from thinking in bets that we can make the best decision we possibly can, but you don't know until after the fact.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: And the thing about our team is it's almost like the final whistle goes and we don't stop competing.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like if we have to score again after the whistle's gone, we will, and we'll turn a decision into a good one.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, Chris is especially good at this, isn't he?
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, nope, I'll look at it a different way.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: We'll find a different route, we'll adapt a system, a protocol, an intervention, we'll do something else, we'll change the game in some way to keep it going.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think because we're all we are so committed to owning the problem and the outcome and the impact it's going to have, we'll always find a way to make it work, I think.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that probably ultimately goes back to the amazing job that Andrew and Karas do to find the people who've got the like mental agility to be able to do that.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think we have to we have to really rely upon people to bring that energy every day and and not be phased by a by a challenge that's presented and and you know find a way to to keep things around, okay, what are we doing this for in the first place?
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, right, is there a different route?
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: Let's let's take it and give it a try.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: We um when when you think about the sort of original long-term people at OC, who comes to your mind?
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, obviously you, because you were I I dealt with you almost exclusively for probably the best part of what, a year?
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: So there's not even much with Dan really, because yeah, I mean there's been um we've had some amazing people in in the team, um, you know, and obviously we were very lucky that the vast majority of people who come to OC become part of the furniture very quickly and are still part of the team today.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, yeah.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, every person just brought a new dynamic.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: It is it is really it's addictive.
• 28:27
  unknown: Yeah.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, you you sort of describe it as immersive and kind of all in.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: But you've got to have enough room in your life for OC because if if you you can't be half in, it just doesn't work because everyone else is so in.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um what are you excited about for the future, George?
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: We've got a pretty exciting project on at the moment.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um working with some incredible external partners.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: The the team um who are working on that on that transaction internally.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, every time we have a meeting and things progress, you can see that just like, oh my gosh, like that is a massive leap forward.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like we have we have really made some excellent progress on that.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: We are getting a step closer, which is which is awesome.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I'm feeling really confident in the next kind of like six, six, nine, twelve months, we're gonna have this market-making transaction.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I think from that point, you know, it's um it's just incredibly exciting to hopefully be able to do this all over again in terms of what we've built and doing that on a much bigger scale in different geographies with new people, um, whether that's in the team, whether that's new, new third-party counterparties and professionals, whether it's gonna be, you know, the whole new cast of characters that we're gonna work with when we acquire these estates and deliver the projects.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's um it's incredibly exciting, and I genuinely feel like you know, this this scaling opportunity we have is is really, really significant.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, so we're gonna deliver it.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um is there anything you think you'll miss about your old role and that you'll need to change in your new?
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I still I still love doing drafting.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, because I'm a bit of a lawyer geek.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna, you know, and I I think I'll still obviously want to be really involved in that, you know, and it's all it's all a collaborative effort.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: I often say to you, like, I'm still very happy to do the job that I did as a first on the first days being a trainee, let alone a general counsel.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to keep want to keep in because ultimately it's you know, you you see everybody doing everything that's necessary and it doesn't matter who's doing it.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: Are you do you want to keep both?
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to be managing director and general counsel?
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: We need to have that discussion, clearly.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: We do, yeah.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: Oh that's fine.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm happy with it either way.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: I hadn't thought about it.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: I I I had it in this like the surgeon in my head that the doctor needs to give away the doctor to become the mister again.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd love doing, I'd love doing my legal work.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to keep them both as the dual title?
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, don't know.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: Cool with it.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um but uh but I think you know, obviously over time we need to make sure there's progression for everybody across the business, and there'll inevitably be things you have to let go.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: And as much as you kind of feel like, well, I was I we have had this discussion, right?
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: I feel really responsible for some of the projects that maybe have maybe have been around a bit too long because I haven't been able to get to them or what for whatever reason that we haven't quite cleared the deck, and I kind of feel like, well, that's my some of them carry such institutional legacy in history and are really important to important people for us that it's hard to Yeah, and and then obviously inevitably you're like, Well, there's a new really interesting opportunity here.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: I only want to dig into that, and I I feel I can be most valuable maybe doing some of the legal analysis.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: But equally, we've got other amazing people in the team who who want the opportunity and we want to give it to them.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's really hard to to step away from stuff.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I probably kept the whole exco as direct reports too long because I didn't want to let people down and move away from it or make people happy, like giving Dan away.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um but uh ultimately having made that change to give space to Fee and to you and Chris, and it's only led to positive things and allowed me to be a better advocate for the business externally and allow you three to run your directorates, which all of them have gone from from strength to strength.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we're also coming up on uh our favourite time of the year, intern rounds are going to be going out again.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what would you love to see come into your wider directorate in terms of talent?
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's there's so much opportunity.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: We just need to find those amazingly energized young professionals who can see a career in natural capital or environment as a as a really exciting opportunity for them because if you bring that energy, bring the intelligence, everything else is here.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: There's the support network's here to help you succeed, and the work is here to help you become an expert and a leader in your own right.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I I think it's it's super exciting that we've got you know the opportunity to maybe bring in somebody to help with our people and culture or to help with our investment, you know, proposition.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: There's so much opportunity, and we're and we're lucky to have so many amazing candidates to choose from.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, in a way, we've got to balance kind of okay, what do we need in capital?
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: What do we need in intelligence?
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: What do we need in conservation?
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you have to make sacrifices and compromises, obviously.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: But the great thing about that process is obviously it kicks out some incredible people, and then they're almost, you know, you'd you'd be happy to take them into.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: We've got a number of interns I could probably name, which I won't do, but like who I would say they could I give them any job in option capital and they would be fantastic.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: They could also do any job in conservation and probably any job in intelligence as well, and they'd be amazing.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: I specifically didn't cover marketing.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: I um uh so I heard Bending Spoons describe it.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh their CEO spoke about they try and saturate young talent to the point of overload so they know their capacity.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: A bit a bit like training for a marathon or in the gym, you need to push yourself to what you can do, then you can go more and more and more.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: And lots of businesses don't do that to you until you're very senior.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you know how to do it?
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: How do you know how to prepare for it?
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: How do you know to respond to it and build up that strength base and that experience?
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's what we do really well.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: We expose you to everything straight away.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I've been spending time with this uh round of interns to understand who perhaps has got a long-term future with us, and they've been super complimentary about the access to each of you as as MDs and the knowledge of the business and the access to information and all of us.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we just give talented people such a launch pad, if they're willing to come in, work really hard, own what they do, and be ambitious about their career, there's no better place to start, is there?
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no, totally.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: And some of our some of the junior more junior members of the team, I just think Crikey, I'll be working with you, I'll be working for you, you know, in the near future because their ceiling is is so high.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's absolutely absolutely brilliant.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: And it makes me wouldn't get an internship now.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, totally.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's like not a chip.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I I it makes you really want to push yourself because you don't want to let them down.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: And they're, you know, and they're in that position where like they're just in improving so quickly, so quickly, and you'll you feel like a real responsibility to make sure that you know they fulfill their you know the talent that they've got available to them.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: You you mentioned now was the time for us to seek and welcome external funding for the first time.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: Part of that has been really ramping up the investment side of the business, and obviously that works with Chris and Alice and Alicia, but we also added um an incredible addition to the team.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I I know it'd be a miss if we didn't mention Matt.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: Would you like to talk about him a little?
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that's been just absolutely incredible.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: When you when you when he came in, uh you said, Oh, we've got a guy who's going to be like a force multiplier for me.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that has been an understatement in terms of what he's delivered.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think the project we're working on at the moment would not be as progressed as it is without without him.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: And his attitude is incredible, really, really pushing, pushing us to make difficult decisions, trying to stretch us as far as we can away from things that we might think are set in stone.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: He's um he's been incredible, incredible asset for the team.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: George, what do you hope oxygen capital becomes in the next few years?
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think whatever answer I give you is not going to be the answer that you know, that is the correct answer in a few years' time.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I love I love the opportunity to take this in a number of different directions.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, what we hope to be doing is managing hundreds of millions more pounds for people who have invested it to make a positive impact on the world, delivering some amazing projects, making some real real impact.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think you're going to be leading the leading natural capital asset manager in the world.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: OC wouldn't be OC without you.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um there wouldn't be an oxygen capital without you.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there is only one person that could ever be the MD of that role.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, thank you so much for believing in us enough to come across and be part of the journey.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm delighted for you.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: Congratulations.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for your chance.